Now, this has never come up for me (and hopefully wouldn't) but I'm just curious about something.
Lets say for example that someone only has $10 left until their next paycheck, and they notice a restaurant is running a $9.99 special that sounds good to them. Should that person go and enjoy the $9.99 special with their $10, and just not leave a tip because they don't have the money to be able to do so, or should they just not go because they don't have enough to be able to leave a tip on top of the cost of the food (thus depriving the business of a potential $10 in sales).
In this case, assume that the person does not have access to any other money, and will be dining alone.
Honestly? If you're in that situation, don't go out to eat. If you're so poor that you can't tip, you can't afford to eat out.
I would understand barista tipping if you're sitting down in a cafe and someone is bringing the coffee to you after you're done. But I've never heard of it being expected to tip at a Starbucks. I've also worked briefly as a barista, and it was by no means expected that people tip us. People did, it was appreciated, but it wasn't expected in the same sense that a waiter would expect a tip.
I think it's gotten to the point that the expectation of frequency and general percentage of gratuities is approaching that of waitstaff for baristas and comparable jobs, though obviously not overall amounts. Expectations shift over time, and I think we're seeing that in that sector.
So judging from the downright vitriolic replies some people have shared in this discussion just barely scratching the surface of directly flaming users who disagree with their tipping philosophy:
It is clear to me that most of you believe that tipping is mandatory in the US. Now you can do some verbal and logical gymnastic to try and backpedal and claim that you do not believe tipping is mandatory, but the attitudes you posit against those who do not tip very clearly show that you feel tipping is mandatory as those who do not do so are essentially killing our service industry. (Life and death for tips, really?)
Which means that you may as well just include a 15% gratuity on every order for every service rendered in the nation. That way you get what you want, and service workers are tipped on every order. And the non-tippers get what they want, a clear and defined cost of their service or meal that they can budget for without being flamed or harassed because of it.
If you're going to take such a strong stance against anti-tippers, at least be consistent about it.
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It is clear to me that most of you believe that tipping is mandatory in the US.
You must have read a competely differnet thread than me, because the overwhelming consensus is that it isn't mandatory but it is expected and customary.
You must have read a competely differnet thread than me, because the overwhelming consensus is that it isn't mandatory but it is expected and customary.
The line between those concepts can be extremely thin. If you use enough peer pressure, a non-mandatory thing becomes de facto mandatory. Any school kid knows it.
Is it morally and ethically wrong not to leave a tip? no. Is it cheap? yes.
So 'being cheap' is not morally or ethically wrong but it is still somehow 'wrong'?
One would think that in the current economic situation 'being cheap' without doing something immoral or unethical would be a positive thing and should be encouraged.
The line between those concepts can be extremely thin. If you use enough peer pressure, a non-mandatory thing becomes de facto mandatory. Any school kid knows it.
And any school kid is wrong. de fact mandatory is not mandatory. Just because someone is too week willed to stand up to peer pressure does not mean that the action they are performing because of that pressure is a mandatory action.
So 'being cheap' is not morally or ethically wrong but it is still somehow 'wrong'?
One would think that in the current economic situation 'being cheap' without doing something immoral or unethical would be a positive thing and should be encouraged.
No, being cheap is not wrong... it's being cheap. It's a negative thing, sure, but its not *wrong*. Someone doesn't leave a tip when they had adequate service in a venue where it is customary to leave tips has done nothing "wrong" at the moral or ethical level. It's still not a quality I owuld want ot instill.
Being cheap and being frugal are not the same thing. Being cheap is saying "I only have $10, so I'll go out to eat and not leave a tip". Being frugal is saying "I only have $10, maybe I should pass on going out to eat tonight and get something at the grocery store." One is the action that should be encouraged "in the current economic situation".
I don't eat fast food. But as I said before, there isn't a social convention of tipping for fast food, it's not a service society has deemed worth tipping for. You want to equate the two to justify not tipping at one because the other doesn't get tips, but the fact is that they are different jobs with differing skillsets. And as strange and arbitrary as it is, society has made it more commonplace to tip one and commonplace to not tip the other. If the double standard offends you so, I'd suggest leaving change at McDonalds.
I have tipped at some fast food places (I still do at Subway when I go), but I generally wouldn't because what are all of the staff going to do with splitting the change one person leaves them? Were it a convention and I ate at fast food places, I'm sure I would tip.
Your right it does infact actuly require a greater skill set to work at a Mcdonalds, a Tims you have to Pour coffee, put a cup over instant capachino maker, Make sandwiches, hand people donuts, At Mcd's you have to know how to cook thing,s fry things, put together alot of different burgers on customer demand, pour coffee/hand out muffens/make sandwiches. However I don't see how showing that tims is less skill intensive proves anything here that they need more money for it.
I also spoke with two managers in different Tims I go to, they said no one tips with any degree of regularity at all, its not common.
In my country, it is customary to tip waiters with 10% of the total bill. But here's the thing: tipping is entirely at the customer's discretion (my city even has a law saying so, and local restaurant bills are sometimes required to state this fact). Basically, if you're not satisfied with the waiting, you don't tip, and the waiter will likely know why you didn't.
Another thing: waiters are pretty much the only workers around here who will expect a tip. You can tip, say, taxi drivers if you want, but you're certainly not socially expected to do so.
Personally, I don't understand tipping. It's a cultural thing, yes, but it makes no sense to me that, while you read a menu, you should be required to do some math in your head to even know the actual price you're going to pay. If you own a restaurant, simply charge the actual price you want for your items and pay the wages your employees earn. This really isn't something that should be a customer's responsibility.
Anyone who performs a spa service for you. I know a lot of people may not have gotten one here or performed one. I work as a massage therapist and yes, the service is expensive but Im not getting paid what you would think. For an hour I work is right around 49-59 and there are signs for gratuity depending on the length of the session. Our industry sadly thinks in the same way as the restaurant one just on a more expensive and physically demanding scale (yeah, you go massage a 6'4 guy for two hours and get back to me, lolz)
HOWEVER
as a customer, if your expensive service sucked, show it in the left tip not by leaving no tip at all. I have been stiffed by people who are not aware of this or just have a reputation of not doing it (I have NEVER gotten complaints to management as I take my job seriously and I am good at what I do)
and we get a little heated in the break room. If you can't tip, just say so at the beginning it's not going to affect the quality of what I do.....at least not me personally.
Even at a restaurant with terrible wait staff I leave a tip, I just simply put take the knife and fork and put an X over it hoping they get the hint.
Anyone who performs a spa service for you. I know a lot of people may not have gotten one here or performed one. I work as a massage therapist and yes, the service is expensive but Im not getting paid what you would think. For an hour I work is right around 49-59 and there are signs for gratuity depending on the length of the session. Our industry sadly thinks in the same way as the restaurant one just on a more expensive and physically demanding scale (yeah, you go massage a 6'4 guy for two hours and get back to me, lolz)
HOWEVER
as a customer, if your expensive service sucked, show it in the left tip not by leaving no tip at all. I have been stiffed by people who are not aware of this or just have a reputation of not doing it (I have NEVER gotten complaints to management as I take my job seriously and I am good at what I do)
and we get a little heated in the break room. If you can't tip, just say so at the beginning it's not going to affect the quality of what I do.....at least not me personally.
Even at a restaurant with terrible wait staff I leave a tip, I just simply put take the knife and fork and put an X over it hoping they get the hint.
So it's the customer's fault that your company doesn't give you what you would deem a fair cut of this expensive service? What does length of session have to do with anything? No question it is physically demanding on you - so is digging ditches on a construction site (random example). If you calculate your hourly rate based on some average of sessions per week, and your cut of them and this number is to low for you - well that isn't the fault of the consumer who is spending their hard earned money on an expensive service. Would you give someone a crappy massage if they didn't tip you (or left a "cheap" tip) on a previous visit? If the answer is yes I would consider you a poor employee (not saying you are ).
Trying to link this with the restaurant industry, if massage therapists didn't get adequate tips, would the cost of a session greatly increase? It's been said a few times this would happen to food prices.
I agree with everyone who suggested that a service fee or something be added and that as consumers we know how much we are paying and can expect a similar quality of service when we visit.
So it's the customer's fault that your company doesn't give you what you would deem a fair cut of this expensive service? What does length of session have to do with anything? No question it is physically demanding on you - so is digging ditches on a construction site (random example). If you calculate your hourly rate based on some average of sessions per week, and your cut of them and this number is to low for you - well that isn't the fault of the consumer who is spending their hard earned money on an expensive service. Would you give someone a crappy massage if they didn't tip you (or left a "cheap" tip) on a previous visit? If the answer is yes I would consider you a poor employee (not saying you are ).
Trying to link this with the restaurant industry, if massage therapists didn't get adequate tips, would the cost of a session greatly increase? It's been said a few times this would happen to food prices.
I agree with everyone who suggested that a service fee or something be added and that as consumers we know how much we are paying and can expect a similar quality of service when we visit.
I can't speak exact numbers but for what they pay I can see where a lot of consumers think we get paid more than what we do. My private practice hands on rate is the same as what the company charges (except in cases where I barter for delicious foods).
We don't get paid hourly, we get paid based on how many sessions we do (the connection is that a waitstaff isn't gonna make hourly if they have no tables). The mindset we should have is our commission is used to pay our bills and our gratuity is just that, gratuity. We have slow seasons, like the holidays and during summers where stay at home parents have their time taken up so it is important we somehow have balance a clientele who shows their gratuitousness. Having a sign should kind of be a hint that gratuity is a part of our business (and the better the spa the more they expect)......
Being 27 single and no kids or person to take out on a date (working on that, aha) I fit the model my company has well. My tips, they go to mtg, amongst other things.
I wish this wasn't going to be seen as flaming the restaurant industry workers around here, but it's not like I am taking an order or refilling a drink or bussing your table (all three I've seen done by different people at multiple places). I am well trained to take care of medical issues you bring to me regarding soft tissue and stress.
Cost of sessions have risen in recent years, people have been repeatedly grandfathered in. We get paid less due to the employer covering costs but
if we even got paid 4 dollars for the hours we weren't working but were required to stay "just in case" to make them a profit margin about equal to what I make in commission is hard on somedays. If you're good and you generate a clientele as fast as I can the clientele shows you equal gratuity. I've gotten tipped over my commission by triple a few times in the last couple of weeks because super deep pressure is hard to find (luckily I am 6ft 180 and have gravity to use, hooray leverage)
But I love what I do and doing what I do I have become a large tipper
in general, brought me a little perspective.
Per last bolded part: I never give a bad service based on tipping, mostly because they tip after the session but it is really hard to see someone again who isn't a regular and go in with a clear mind to do your best work knowing they won't tip....because they never do. It's my job to give quality service, I understand I could be getting paid 2.13 an hour. I don't even look at my tips on credit cards at the end of my pay period as long as the total number Im getting is sufficient for my needs.
Your right it does infact actuly require a greater skill set to work at a Mcdonalds, a Tims you have to Pour coffee, put a cup over instant capachino maker, Make sandwiches, hand people donuts, At Mcd's you have to know how to cook thing,s fry things, put together alot of different burgers on customer demand, pour coffee/hand out muffens/make sandwiches. However I don't see how showing that tims is less skill intensive proves anything here that they need more money for it.
I wasn't trying to prove Tim Hortons workers have jobs that are more or less skill intensive. My point was that through social convention some job classifications have been deemed worthy of gratuities and others not. Why things are that way is a more complex issue than "this job requires more skill, therefore it ought to be tipped".
I don't speak to the skill intensity of positions I've never worked as that's presumptuous and likely not reflective of the actual work that goes into a position.
I also spoke with two managers in different Tims I go to, they said no one tips with any degree of regularity at all, its not common.
And I spoke with over half a dozen coffee workers from various provinces and differing urban structures, including my own baristas in my restaurant, and they all make tips and rely on that income. The consensus is that they don't make incredibly high money, but that they do get tipped and that money adds up over time. Some were Starbucks, some were Tim Hortons and some were mom & pop shops.
Again, until this thread, I didn't even know not tipping for coffee was a thing people did at all, let alone 'commonly'.
Honestly? If you're in that situation, don't go out to eat. If you're so poor that you can't tip, you can't afford to eat out.
Fair enough then. I wonder how much in sales businesses lose out on because of such a viewpoint though?
A secondary question would be, if, say, the person had a jar of pennies at home (spends all of his other loose change as he goes), and could pull out $1 in pennies to cover the tip, while obviously a pain in the butt to deal with either paying for the meal with them, or leaving a tip with them, would that be acceptable, or would you still suggest the person not go out to eat? (Lets assume for the sake of argument, that the person gets paid in a couple days, but this is the last day of the sale.)
As I said, I've never run into this problem, but I know those who have (and for the record, they did go there to eat, and did apologize to the server about the lack of tip explaining that they thought the server did a fine job, but that the amount for the food was all the money they had.)
Once again, just curious about specific sorts of situations.
Fair enough then. I wonder how much in sales businesses lose out on because of such a viewpoint though?
A secondary question would be, if, say, the person had a jar of pennies at home (spends all of his other loose change as he goes), and could pull out $1 in pennies to cover the tip, while obviously a pain in the butt to deal with either paying for the meal with them, or leaving a tip with them, would that be acceptable, or would you still suggest the person not go out to eat? (Lets assume for the sake of argument, that the person gets paid in a couple days, but this is the last day of the sale.)
As I said, I've never run into this problem, but I know those who have (and for the record, they did go there to eat, and did apologize to the server about the lack of tip explaining that they thought the server did a fine job, but that the amount for the food was all the money they had.)
Once again, just curious about specific sorts of situations.
Honestly, no, they still shouldn't go out to eat. The tip is sort of beside the point. Financially, if you're that broke, eating out is a waste of money and you just shouldn't do it. Though if you do, it sits very poorly for me when you say "Hi, I'm very broke so I can't tip you. I can't really afford this and now I'm passing that off to you." From a server's perspective, those tips pay their bills and if a customer can't really afford their own bills and so can't/won't tip, they're passing that poorness on, in a way. Keep in mind that as a manager, I remind my staff that they still have to serve their customers even if there will be no tip and they do it. But they definitely would rather not, and I'd rather not make them.
I've encountered this situation before, and I asked the guests why they'd spend the last of their money on eating out and they said they just loved our food. I still think that's a boneheaded move, financially speaking. I asked them about service and they said the server was excellent and we got to talking about tipping and such and that their server would in fact have to tipout support staff regardless so because the customers couldn't afford to tip, they were in effect asking their server to pay to serve them. I didn't do it as a guilt trip, merely as passing along info as they were genuinely curious as to how not tipping would affect their server. In the end, I comped the lunch for the customers, they tipped generously and I invited them to come back when they weren't so financially strapped.
Bottom line is that if you're broke, you shouldn't dine out. Because not tipping sucks, sure, but primarily because it's an incredibly inefficient use of what little money you have.
Honestly, no, they still shouldn't go out to eat. The tip is sort of beside the point. Financially, if you're that broke, eating out is a waste of money and you just shouldn't do it. Though if you do, it sits very poorly for me when you say "Hi, I'm very broke so I can't tip you. I can't really afford this and now I'm passing that off to you." From a server's perspective, those tips pay their bills and if a customer can't really afford their own bills and so can't/won't tip, they're passing that poorness on, in a way. Keep in mind that as a manager, I remind my staff that they still have to serve their customers even if there will be no tip and they do it. But they definitely would rather not, and I'd rather not make them.
I've encountered this situation before, and I asked the guests why they'd spend the last of their money on eating out and they said they just loved our food. I still think that's a boneheaded move, financially speaking. I asked them about service and they said the server was excellent and we got to talking about tipping and such and that their server would in fact have to tipout support staff regardless so because the customers couldn't afford to tip, they were in effect asking their server to pay to serve them. I didn't do it as a guilt trip, merely as passing along info as they were genuinely curious as to how not tipping would affect their server. In the end, I comped the lunch for the customers, they tipped generously and I invited them to come back when they weren't so financially strapped.
Bottom line is that if you're broke, you shouldn't dine out. Because not tipping sucks, sure, but primarily because it's an incredibly inefficient use of what little money you have.
Agreed from a personal standpoint of there being better uses for your last $10 ;). Once again there is a reason I don't eat out much, because being careful with my money has always been important to me.
You also have to understand as well, that here in Oregon, for example, tips are on top of the currently $9 per hour minimum wage (most decent places I know start their servers off at $10/hour, for lower end sit-down restaurants). Obviously in other states its going to be a much different situation, because their tip/wage setup works differently.
I wasn't trying to prove Tim Hortons workers have jobs that are more or less skill intensive. My point was that through social convention some job classifications have been deemed worthy of gratuities and others not. Why things are that way is a more complex issue than "this job requires more skill, therefore it ought to be tipped".
I don't speak to the skill intensity of positions I've never worked as that's presumptuous and likely not reflective of the actual work that goes into a position.
And I spoke with over half a dozen coffee workers from various provinces and differing urban structures, including my own baristas in my restaurant, and they all make tips and rely on that income. The consensus is that they don't make incredibly high money, but that they do get tipped and that money adds up over time. Some were Starbucks, some were Tim Hortons and some were mom & pop shops.
Again, until this thread, I didn't even know not tipping for coffee was a thing people did at all, let alone 'commonly'.
This is very interesting and conflicting information.... I have spoken to quite afew of my neighbors about this issue, they have ALL told me you don't tip at a Tim's (Some say you can/should tip at a starbucks/Willians though Depending on the complexity of your order).
I usually only tip waiters and waitresses in restaurants. I only say this, though, because of my limited experience with tipping.
Baristas? None have ever expected a tip, so I don't tip.
Barbers? I've actually only been to a barber shop once, and when I tried to offer the barber there a tip, he politely refused. Other than that, I've never went to a barber shop to get my hair cut. I would definitely tip them if I went, though.
Those guys who work at bars? ...As you can probably tell, I've never been to one.
Delivery men? I only tip if I'm paying in cash, never if I'm paying by card. I don't know why, but I grew up thinking, "Leaving a tip when paying by card doesn't make sense with delivery men", so I never tip when paying by card. I know how bad that can be most of the time, however, so I pay with cash if I can.
Taxi drivers? I've never been in a cab ride for which I was the person to pay, but I would probably tip them.
Plumbers? Never had a plumber fix the pipes.
Those guys who set up the phone lines and Internet and such in the house? I always felt that service charges covered for them, so I don't tip them.
People that I'm forgetting? Probably not.
Anybody else not mentioned that don't fit under people that I'm forgetting?
On the topic of whether or not to refuse giving a tip due to poor service, it depends on how poor "poor" is. If the service is poor due to say, tiredness of staff and/or late night hours or busy hours or whatnot, and the person or people serving me are obviously trying their hardest despite their possible desire to go home and be done with their shift, then I tip as normal. If it's evident that their poor service is because they don't want to serve me, then I don't. It's very, very rare that I deem that a waiter fits the latter description, though; when it's evident, it's quite evident.
I usually give 15% tip, going higher if those who served me were exceptional in doing so. Unless it's the aforementioned 0% tip, I usually only go lower if the person serving me does their job a bit too excessively; a slightly exaggerated example of this would be a waiter checking on me every thirty seconds or so. But that definitely doesn't make the person deserve a 0% tip.
As for the $10, $9.99 special scenario, I would opt not to eat there for the night. If I did for some reason, I would try to order something less expensive, or if the special is the cheapest thing, I would obviously order it. I would tell the person serving me about the situation, and I wouldn't give a tip only because I wouldn't be able to, and then the next time I went, I would make it up somehow. Obviously, doing this doesn't account for the possibility of a different server serving me between the two meals, so I could see the drawback, but as far as holding my end of the line goes, I think making it up somehow and giving a higher-than-average tip to the second waiter is better than just giving an average tip to that person.
This is all coming from a person who knows next to nothing about the laws pertaining to the combination of minimum wage and tips of the state he lives in.
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As for the $10, $9.99 special scenario, I would opt not to eat there for the night. If I did for some reason, I would try to order something less expensive, or if the special is the cheapest thing, I would obviously order it. I would tell the person serving me about the situation, and I wouldn't give a tip only because I wouldn't be able to, and then the next time I went, I would make it up somehow. Obviously, doing this doesn't account for the possibility of a different server serving me between the two meals, so I could see the drawback, but as far as holding my end of the line goes, I think making it up somehow and giving a higher-than-average tip to the second waiter is better than just giving an average tip to that person.
This is all coming from a person who knows next to nothing about the laws pertaining to the combination of minimum wage and tips of the state he lives in.
Out of my own curiosity about the subject, I asked my parents (in their 60's) what their thoughts were on it. And they both agreed that if you don't have enough money to pay for the meal and a reasonable tip, that you shouldn't eat out there until you do. With the younger individuals I have asked (my age and younger), it seemed fairly split between go and not tip, or don't go unless you can. More or less anyone age 40 or older I asked were universally agreed that you shouldn't go unless you can afford a tip. Definitely some interesting demographic differences there.
Is tipping mandatory? Easy enough question at first glance... But after thinking about it I feel that the answer isn't very clear cut.
From a moral point of view, tipping is absolutely mandatory.
However, if your service really really sucked, waiving the tip is potentially justified.
if your service wasn't terrible, however, i would say that it *should be* considered mandatory, even though it isn't.
I would disagree with the bold section, there is nothing moral about tipping or not tipping. I am personally not inclined to tip unless the service is exceptional, otherwise i simply see it as the person doing the job they were hired for.
Also about not going out unless you can cover the meal and a good tip, that's just nonsense. I am legally obliged to pay for the food i order and receive. I am not responsible for a restaurant owner being too greedy to pay his/her employees a proper wage. It is a nice gesture but not a mandatory one.
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I would disagree with the bold section, there is nothing moral about tipping or not tipping. I am personally not inclined to tip unless the service is exceptional, otherwise i simply see it as the person doing the job they were hired for.
That smacks of willful ignorance of the situation.
Also about not going out unless you can cover the meal and a good tip, that's just nonsense. I am legally obliged to pay for the food i order and receive. I am not responsible for a restaurant owner being too greedy to pay his/her employees a proper wage. It is a nice gesture but not a mandatory one.
If you're dining in an establishment that utilizes a pay structure that presumes the expectation of gratuities to cover in part the staff's wages while keeping prices competitive, you're buying into that system. And while dining at such establishments or not is certainly your choice, if you do there is a social expectation that you will tip. You're free not to do so, there's just a social stigma against that.
Personally, I think that if you're going to take advantage of such services, you are to an extent morally responsible for playing your part in the system that provides that service, ie tipping the staff. If you can't afford the tip, then you really can't afford the service.
I would disagree with the bold section, there is nothing moral about tipping or not tipping. I am personally not inclined to tip unless the service is exceptional, otherwise i simply see it as the person doing the job they were hired for.
Also about not going out unless you can cover the meal and a good tip, that's just nonsense. I am legally obliged to pay for the food i order and receive. I am not responsible for a restaurant owner being too greedy to pay his/her employees a proper wage. It is a nice gesture but not a mandatory one.
It's not about a legal obligation or the owners being "greedy". It's about the social/cultural system that exists and that the majority have agreed to engage in. You're not obligated to engage in this system, but if you don't there can be consequences.
You don't have to tip for average service, or any service really. But people will consider it rude if you don't. If you want to be polite and not offend then you will tip, if you don't care then do whatever you want. But don't be surprised if you get intentionally crummy service when you go back.
It's not about a legal obligation or the owners being "greedy". It's about the social/cultural system that exists and that the majority have agreed to engage in. You're not obligated to engage in this system, but if you don't there can be consequences.
You don't have to tip for average service, or any service really. But people will consider it rude if you don't. If you want to be polite and not offend then you will tip, if you don't care then do whatever you want. But don't be surprised if you get intentionally crummy service when you go back.
Perhaps i worded my statements poorly, to me tipping is just a part of this social contract that for whatever reason has become acceptable and expected of us to engage in. I am, as you highlighted in the minority in that i don't think this is to be expected.
I do think its terrible that due to circumstances beyond the control of the workers they are allowed to be paid sub minimum wages. However i still do not think that it should be up to us to support this by going along with it.
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Honestly? If you're in that situation, don't go out to eat. If you're so poor that you can't tip, you can't afford to eat out.
I think it's gotten to the point that the expectation of frequency and general percentage of gratuities is approaching that of waitstaff for baristas and comparable jobs, though obviously not overall amounts. Expectations shift over time, and I think we're seeing that in that sector.
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Is there something in particular you wanted people to respond to?
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This is a short, interesting read about tipping perpetuating negative labor environments.
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It is clear to me that most of you believe that tipping is mandatory in the US. Now you can do some verbal and logical gymnastic to try and backpedal and claim that you do not believe tipping is mandatory, but the attitudes you posit against those who do not tip very clearly show that you feel tipping is mandatory as those who do not do so are essentially killing our service industry. (Life and death for tips, really?)
Which means that you may as well just include a 15% gratuity on every order for every service rendered in the nation. That way you get what you want, and service workers are tipped on every order. And the non-tippers get what they want, a clear and defined cost of their service or meal that they can budget for without being flamed or harassed because of it.
If you're going to take such a strong stance against anti-tippers, at least be consistent about it.
-Myself.
You must have read a competely differnet thread than me, because the overwhelming consensus is that it isn't mandatory but it is expected and customary.
Is it morally and ethically wrong not to leave a tip? no. Is it cheap? yes.
The line between those concepts can be extremely thin. If you use enough peer pressure, a non-mandatory thing becomes de facto mandatory. Any school kid knows it.
So 'being cheap' is not morally or ethically wrong but it is still somehow 'wrong'?
One would think that in the current economic situation 'being cheap' without doing something immoral or unethical would be a positive thing and should be encouraged.
And any school kid is wrong. de fact mandatory is not mandatory. Just because someone is too week willed to stand up to peer pressure does not mean that the action they are performing because of that pressure is a mandatory action.
No, being cheap is not wrong... it's being cheap. It's a negative thing, sure, but its not *wrong*. Someone doesn't leave a tip when they had adequate service in a venue where it is customary to leave tips has done nothing "wrong" at the moral or ethical level. It's still not a quality I owuld want ot instill.
Being cheap and being frugal are not the same thing. Being cheap is saying "I only have $10, so I'll go out to eat and not leave a tip". Being frugal is saying "I only have $10, maybe I should pass on going out to eat tonight and get something at the grocery store." One is the action that should be encouraged "in the current economic situation".
Your right it does infact actuly require a greater skill set to work at a Mcdonalds, a Tims you have to Pour coffee, put a cup over instant capachino maker, Make sandwiches, hand people donuts, At Mcd's you have to know how to cook thing,s fry things, put together alot of different burgers on customer demand, pour coffee/hand out muffens/make sandwiches. However I don't see how showing that tims is less skill intensive proves anything here that they need more money for it.
I also spoke with two managers in different Tims I go to, they said no one tips with any degree of regularity at all, its not common.
In my country, it is customary to tip waiters with 10% of the total bill. But here's the thing: tipping is entirely at the customer's discretion (my city even has a law saying so, and local restaurant bills are sometimes required to state this fact). Basically, if you're not satisfied with the waiting, you don't tip, and the waiter will likely know why you didn't.
Another thing: waiters are pretty much the only workers around here who will expect a tip. You can tip, say, taxi drivers if you want, but you're certainly not socially expected to do so.
Personally, I don't understand tipping. It's a cultural thing, yes, but it makes no sense to me that, while you read a menu, you should be required to do some math in your head to even know the actual price you're going to pay. If you own a restaurant, simply charge the actual price you want for your items and pay the wages your employees earn. This really isn't something that should be a customer's responsibility.
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Anyone who performs a spa service for you. I know a lot of people may not have gotten one here or performed one. I work as a massage therapist and yes, the service is expensive but Im not getting paid what you would think. For an hour I work is right around 49-59 and there are signs for gratuity depending on the length of the session. Our industry sadly thinks in the same way as the restaurant one just on a more expensive and physically demanding scale (yeah, you go massage a 6'4 guy for two hours and get back to me, lolz)
HOWEVER
as a customer, if your expensive service sucked, show it in the left tip not by leaving no tip at all. I have been stiffed by people who are not aware of this or just have a reputation of not doing it (I have NEVER gotten complaints to management as I take my job seriously and I am good at what I do)
and we get a little heated in the break room. If you can't tip, just say so at the beginning it's not going to affect the quality of what I do.....at least not me personally.
Even at a restaurant with terrible wait staff I leave a tip, I just simply put take the knife and fork and put an X over it hoping they get the hint.
So it's the customer's fault that your company doesn't give you what you would deem a fair cut of this expensive service? What does length of session have to do with anything? No question it is physically demanding on you - so is digging ditches on a construction site (random example). If you calculate your hourly rate based on some average of sessions per week, and your cut of them and this number is to low for you - well that isn't the fault of the consumer who is spending their hard earned money on an expensive service. Would you give someone a crappy massage if they didn't tip you (or left a "cheap" tip) on a previous visit? If the answer is yes I would consider you a poor employee (not saying you are ).
Trying to link this with the restaurant industry, if massage therapists didn't get adequate tips, would the cost of a session greatly increase? It's been said a few times this would happen to food prices.
I agree with everyone who suggested that a service fee or something be added and that as consumers we know how much we are paying and can expect a similar quality of service when we visit.
I can't speak exact numbers but for what they pay I can see where a lot of consumers think we get paid more than what we do. My private practice hands on rate is the same as what the company charges (except in cases where I barter for delicious foods).
We don't get paid hourly, we get paid based on how many sessions we do (the connection is that a waitstaff isn't gonna make hourly if they have no tables). The mindset we should have is our commission is used to pay our bills and our gratuity is just that, gratuity. We have slow seasons, like the holidays and during summers where stay at home parents have their time taken up so it is important we somehow have balance a clientele who shows their gratuitousness. Having a sign should kind of be a hint that gratuity is a part of our business (and the better the spa the more they expect)......
Being 27 single and no kids or person to take out on a date (working on that, aha) I fit the model my company has well. My tips, they go to mtg, amongst other things.
I wish this wasn't going to be seen as flaming the restaurant industry workers around here, but it's not like I am taking an order or refilling a drink or bussing your table (all three I've seen done by different people at multiple places). I am well trained to take care of medical issues you bring to me regarding soft tissue and stress.
Cost of sessions have risen in recent years, people have been repeatedly grandfathered in. We get paid less due to the employer covering costs but
if we even got paid 4 dollars for the hours we weren't working but were required to stay "just in case" to make them a profit margin about equal to what I make in commission is hard on somedays. If you're good and you generate a clientele as fast as I can the clientele shows you equal gratuity. I've gotten tipped over my commission by triple a few times in the last couple of weeks because super deep pressure is hard to find (luckily I am 6ft 180 and have gravity to use, hooray leverage)
But I love what I do and doing what I do I have become a large tipper
in general, brought me a little perspective.
Per last bolded part: I never give a bad service based on tipping, mostly because they tip after the session but it is really hard to see someone again who isn't a regular and go in with a clear mind to do your best work knowing they won't tip....because they never do. It's my job to give quality service, I understand I could be getting paid 2.13 an hour. I don't even look at my tips on credit cards at the end of my pay period as long as the total number Im getting is sufficient for my needs.
I wasn't trying to prove Tim Hortons workers have jobs that are more or less skill intensive. My point was that through social convention some job classifications have been deemed worthy of gratuities and others not. Why things are that way is a more complex issue than "this job requires more skill, therefore it ought to be tipped".
I don't speak to the skill intensity of positions I've never worked as that's presumptuous and likely not reflective of the actual work that goes into a position.
And I spoke with over half a dozen coffee workers from various provinces and differing urban structures, including my own baristas in my restaurant, and they all make tips and rely on that income. The consensus is that they don't make incredibly high money, but that they do get tipped and that money adds up over time. Some were Starbucks, some were Tim Hortons and some were mom & pop shops.
Again, until this thread, I didn't even know not tipping for coffee was a thing people did at all, let alone 'commonly'.
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Fair enough then. I wonder how much in sales businesses lose out on because of such a viewpoint though?
A secondary question would be, if, say, the person had a jar of pennies at home (spends all of his other loose change as he goes), and could pull out $1 in pennies to cover the tip, while obviously a pain in the butt to deal with either paying for the meal with them, or leaving a tip with them, would that be acceptable, or would you still suggest the person not go out to eat? (Lets assume for the sake of argument, that the person gets paid in a couple days, but this is the last day of the sale.)
As I said, I've never run into this problem, but I know those who have (and for the record, they did go there to eat, and did apologize to the server about the lack of tip explaining that they thought the server did a fine job, but that the amount for the food was all the money they had.)
Once again, just curious about specific sorts of situations.
Honestly, no, they still shouldn't go out to eat. The tip is sort of beside the point. Financially, if you're that broke, eating out is a waste of money and you just shouldn't do it. Though if you do, it sits very poorly for me when you say "Hi, I'm very broke so I can't tip you. I can't really afford this and now I'm passing that off to you." From a server's perspective, those tips pay their bills and if a customer can't really afford their own bills and so can't/won't tip, they're passing that poorness on, in a way. Keep in mind that as a manager, I remind my staff that they still have to serve their customers even if there will be no tip and they do it. But they definitely would rather not, and I'd rather not make them.
I've encountered this situation before, and I asked the guests why they'd spend the last of their money on eating out and they said they just loved our food. I still think that's a boneheaded move, financially speaking. I asked them about service and they said the server was excellent and we got to talking about tipping and such and that their server would in fact have to tipout support staff regardless so because the customers couldn't afford to tip, they were in effect asking their server to pay to serve them. I didn't do it as a guilt trip, merely as passing along info as they were genuinely curious as to how not tipping would affect their server. In the end, I comped the lunch for the customers, they tipped generously and I invited them to come back when they weren't so financially strapped.
Bottom line is that if you're broke, you shouldn't dine out. Because not tipping sucks, sure, but primarily because it's an incredibly inefficient use of what little money you have.
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Agreed from a personal standpoint of there being better uses for your last $10 ;). Once again there is a reason I don't eat out much, because being careful with my money has always been important to me.
You also have to understand as well, that here in Oregon, for example, tips are on top of the currently $9 per hour minimum wage (most decent places I know start their servers off at $10/hour, for lower end sit-down restaurants). Obviously in other states its going to be a much different situation, because their tip/wage setup works differently.
From a moral point of view, tipping is absolutely mandatory.
However, if your service really really sucked, waiving the tip is potentially justified.
if your service wasn't terrible, however, i would say that it *should be* considered mandatory, even though it isn't.
This is very interesting and conflicting information.... I have spoken to quite afew of my neighbors about this issue, they have ALL told me you don't tip at a Tim's (Some say you can/should tip at a starbucks/Willians though Depending on the complexity of your order).
Baristas? None have ever expected a tip, so I don't tip.
Barbers? I've actually only been to a barber shop once, and when I tried to offer the barber there a tip, he politely refused. Other than that, I've never went to a barber shop to get my hair cut. I would definitely tip them if I went, though.
Those guys who work at bars? ...As you can probably tell, I've never been to one.
Delivery men? I only tip if I'm paying in cash, never if I'm paying by card. I don't know why, but I grew up thinking, "Leaving a tip when paying by card doesn't make sense with delivery men", so I never tip when paying by card. I know how bad that can be most of the time, however, so I pay with cash if I can.
Taxi drivers? I've never been in a cab ride for which I was the person to pay, but I would probably tip them.
Plumbers? Never had a plumber fix the pipes.
Those guys who set up the phone lines and Internet and such in the house? I always felt that service charges covered for them, so I don't tip them.
People that I'm forgetting? Probably not.
Anybody else not mentioned that don't fit under people that I'm forgetting?
On the topic of whether or not to refuse giving a tip due to poor service, it depends on how poor "poor" is. If the service is poor due to say, tiredness of staff and/or late night hours or busy hours or whatnot, and the person or people serving me are obviously trying their hardest despite their possible desire to go home and be done with their shift, then I tip as normal. If it's evident that their poor service is because they don't want to serve me, then I don't. It's very, very rare that I deem that a waiter fits the latter description, though; when it's evident, it's quite evident.
I usually give 15% tip, going higher if those who served me were exceptional in doing so. Unless it's the aforementioned 0% tip, I usually only go lower if the person serving me does their job a bit too excessively; a slightly exaggerated example of this would be a waiter checking on me every thirty seconds or so. But that definitely doesn't make the person deserve a 0% tip.
As for the $10, $9.99 special scenario, I would opt not to eat there for the night. If I did for some reason, I would try to order something less expensive, or if the special is the cheapest thing, I would obviously order it. I would tell the person serving me about the situation, and I wouldn't give a tip only because I wouldn't be able to, and then the next time I went, I would make it up somehow. Obviously, doing this doesn't account for the possibility of a different server serving me between the two meals, so I could see the drawback, but as far as holding my end of the line goes, I think making it up somehow and giving a higher-than-average tip to the second waiter is better than just giving an average tip to that person.
This is all coming from a person who knows next to nothing about the laws pertaining to the combination of minimum wage and tips of the state he lives in.
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Out of my own curiosity about the subject, I asked my parents (in their 60's) what their thoughts were on it. And they both agreed that if you don't have enough money to pay for the meal and a reasonable tip, that you shouldn't eat out there until you do. With the younger individuals I have asked (my age and younger), it seemed fairly split between go and not tip, or don't go unless you can. More or less anyone age 40 or older I asked were universally agreed that you shouldn't go unless you can afford a tip. Definitely some interesting demographic differences there.
I would disagree with the bold section, there is nothing moral about tipping or not tipping. I am personally not inclined to tip unless the service is exceptional, otherwise i simply see it as the person doing the job they were hired for.
Also about not going out unless you can cover the meal and a good tip, that's just nonsense. I am legally obliged to pay for the food i order and receive. I am not responsible for a restaurant owner being too greedy to pay his/her employees a proper wage. It is a nice gesture but not a mandatory one.
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That smacks of willful ignorance of the situation.
If you're dining in an establishment that utilizes a pay structure that presumes the expectation of gratuities to cover in part the staff's wages while keeping prices competitive, you're buying into that system. And while dining at such establishments or not is certainly your choice, if you do there is a social expectation that you will tip. You're free not to do so, there's just a social stigma against that.
Personally, I think that if you're going to take advantage of such services, you are to an extent morally responsible for playing your part in the system that provides that service, ie tipping the staff. If you can't afford the tip, then you really can't afford the service.
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It's not about a legal obligation or the owners being "greedy". It's about the social/cultural system that exists and that the majority have agreed to engage in. You're not obligated to engage in this system, but if you don't there can be consequences.
You don't have to tip for average service, or any service really. But people will consider it rude if you don't. If you want to be polite and not offend then you will tip, if you don't care then do whatever you want. But don't be surprised if you get intentionally crummy service when you go back.
Perhaps i worded my statements poorly, to me tipping is just a part of this social contract that for whatever reason has become acceptable and expected of us to engage in. I am, as you highlighted in the minority in that i don't think this is to be expected.
I do think its terrible that due to circumstances beyond the control of the workers they are allowed to be paid sub minimum wages. However i still do not think that it should be up to us to support this by going along with it.
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