I think I'll check out the krav maga school nearby.
I did want to add a little bit for kendo. I can't say that kendo actually taught me any specific physical techniques to use in a fight, but I did pick up a few things from it, namely:
1) the concept of reacting to a person's movements. (in a jkd intercepting fist kind of way) you're supposed to move when the other guy moves.
2) Maai, a better intuition of distances in a fighting situation
3) acclimation to extremely fast moving objects, both with eye training and reflexes. An ordinary person's punches felt downright slow compared to a shinai--which makes sense from a physics perspective
4) The concept of power behind attacks.
5) a better appreciation for the importance of center line. The idea that single strong attack with a dedicated heart can not only meet an incoming attack, but finish its own attack. (although I have never successfully pulled this off when I did NOT control the center)
6) Innervation of the solar plexus and adjoining abdominals in a single reflex arc is actually a thing.
Kunwu Jian is very effective in my experience, as long as you don't mind carrying around a 3 foot long wooden stick. Other than that, I would recommend Krav. I self taught myself several parts of Krav, and found the mental training very easy, but that all depends on your personality
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
4) a better appreciation for the importance of center line.
Ahh, well, you'd enjoy Wing Chun, then. Honestly, it only really has like...a distinct number of traps that are technically useful, Bruce Lee boiled them down to around 9 but any who, the center line is serious business in the art so I'd think you'd enjoy it.
If you're going with Krav then seriously look for all the earkmarks of the "mcdojo". If you see any ads in the place with a house Mom or an obvious attractive model in hand wraps you'll know you're in the wrong place. If you see the instructors sitting down and not even working on the mats or on the bags with the students especially during the line drills...you're in the wrong place. If all you get is philosophy about self defense and magical stories about what you can do against a knife, or multiple attackers, and little to no gun defense...you're in the wrong place. That is all they had in Denver as far as Krav Maga goes...it is why the art is so terrible there(we had a higher up police detective and his friends learn a bunch of Kali there because the Krav got a couple guys in the Thornton police department seriously injured).
It has a lot benefits but, it is so poorly taught in this country. Honestly, it has some things I don't like about it but, it makes up for it with that iron clad gun defense...if you learn nothing else from it learn the gun defense moves. They're pretty solid. Even a Kali mad ex-Marine Mercenary instructor for furthered combat and gun skills like Kelly McCann emphasizes Krav for gun defense and that's a pretty solid recommendation in its own.
Further, I think you misunderstand the purpose of a jab. The purpose of a jab is not to one-shot the opponent. It's a jab. It's a fast shot. You aim for the face because that's a large, obvious target that pays off if successful, and because it's something that's at your eye level, which means it's easier to aim for it while still keeping defended, as opposed to a kidney shot.
Further, a jab need not be a closed fist. Finger jabbing the eye will always provoke a response.
Go find someone that does any serious contact martial arts and trade blows with them. You go first and punch their face, and then let them strike you anywhere below the chin.
I have a few dual lands that say you are going down first.
Why the hell would I trade blows with anyone?
The point is not to throw a single attack. The point is to throw the attack, and if it pays off, in that time while the opponent is recovering, respond with another attack. Or book it out of there. Or both.
It involves teaching how to win in a scoring system based on aggression or a possible knockout. Also it assumes the use of weighted gloves that protect the users hands.
Yeah, because the alternative would be leather strap brawling and people getting disfigured or killed. Boxing is easily one of the most useful of any of the combat arts because its techniques, conditioning, and attribute development are applicable in virtually any situation.
Most importantly it doesn't teach practical footwork for street fighting.
150th dan blackbelts* lose horribly to muay thai fighters in the ring... matches that most commonly use KARATE RULES. karate cannot win at it's own game against muay thai.
it doesn't matter what level of karate you're using, karate itself is based off medical misinformation and folkloric belief in "inner energies" that have essentially been proven to be hogwash.
more concrete however, do you know what the most common injury in TKD competitions are?
self-inflicted ankle injuries from kicking your opponent successfully.
that's right. TKD uses kicks that are more likely to hurt YOU than they are to hurt your opponent. TKD kicks are flashy and fast, but they are PHYSICALLY inferior to muay thai kicks... they literally pound of torque for pound of torque generate less power than their muay thai equivalent.
masters of the two arts aren't scary. in fact, i'd be much more afraid to fight an average muay thai fighter from thailand than a top level karate master/tkd master.
Way to over generalize...again. Karate and Taekwondo have positive things to offer just like any martial art. Studying Muay Thai is no guarantee that you'll win a stand up fight. Just one small example, Karate roundhouse kicks vs Thai kicks. Sure the Thai kicks can hit harder but they are also a lot easier to see coming and avoid. A blocked Karate roundhouse might not hurt as much as a Thai one but one that isn't blocked can score a KO just as easily. They both have their merits, you really shouldn't just dismiss an entire art.
Taekwondo has worked just fine for the likes of Anderson Silva, Anthony Pettis and Cung Le. Karate has worked just fine for Lyoto Machida, GSP, Bas Rutten and Chuck Liddell. There's plenty of other people who have had great success with the arts you claim are total crap. There is no such thing as the best art. I've gone on record as saying I think BJJ is overrated for real life/street type situations (plus American style wrestling is like kryptonite for BJJ) but I'd never say anything about it even close to the stuff you say about the arts you don't like. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's worthless. The best fighters I know are Karate fighters and they don't buy into any of the inner energy hokum that you seem to think is at the base of every style of Karate out there.
Well going in with a tornado kick is really dicey, I mean flying knees or flying triangles have the same really high risk, high reward and effect.
And in that second video that MT fighter should have been trying to stay a lot closer (Not that he wasn't trying, but you can't really absorb one kick and not expect a follow up from a TKD fighter).
Not to say I haven't met a few good TKD fighters, but the best usually aren't pure TKD or their teacher showed them how to punch too. Just kicking is rarely enough.
Further, even if a person is unarmed, the entire point of Filipino martial arts is not simply how to use a weapon, but how to deal with an armed opponent.
It's not just stickfighting. Like I mentioned over and over, the ability to fight with weapons is nice, in some situations it's feasible, but the real thing you learn from FMAs is how to fight armed opponents, whether or not you have a weapon, and in many cases, you'd be ill-advised to carry one anyway, since there are so many potential weapons lying around (and the movements you learn in stick and knife drills optimize how to use them), and an untrained opponent would likely provide you with one if you disarm him properly.
Dismissing FMAs as "merely stick fighting" because of how they are popularly and iconically presented in pop culture is rather shallow.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
LOL at people thinking any of this has anything to do with practical self defense. Everything being discussed in this thread is a lot closer to dancing than fighting.
You will almost never have the mental edge when you are attacked, and because of that, all your bad ass moves will amount to bupkiss. Professional MMA fighters lose street fights, and they fight for a living.
Threads like these always boil down to pissing matches between people defending the gym they joined because they thought it was the coolest one. It's like talking about swordfighting in context of modern warfare. Forms, kata's, stick fighting, it's all a lot closer to organized dance contests than anything remotely resembling actual fighting.
Infraction for trolling issued. You can criticize the opinions of previous posters without being deliberately inflammatory - Jay13x
150th dan blackbelts* lose horribly to muay thai fighters in the ring... matches that most commonly use KARATE RULES. karate cannot win at it's own game against muay thai.
it doesn't matter what level of karate you're using, karate itself is based off medical misinformation and folkloric belief in "inner energies" that have essentially been proven to be hogwash.
more concrete however, do you know what the most common injury in TKD competitions are?
self-inflicted ankle injuries from kicking your opponent successfully.
that's right. TKD uses kicks that are more likely to hurt YOU than they are to hurt your opponent. TKD kicks are flashy and fast, but they are PHYSICALLY inferior to muay thai kicks... they literally pound of torque for pound of torque generate less power than their muay thai equivalent.
masters of the two arts aren't scary. in fact, i'd be much more afraid to fight an average muay thai fighter from thailand than a top level karate master/tkd master.
*exaggeration but you get the point
A Muay Thai practitioner may be able to win in a ring with rules, but not in a real fight. Look up Mas Oyama or Gogen Yamaguchi and then tell me again how a muay thai practitioner could beat a well trained karate master. These two could beat anyone alive today and I'm sure there's many more like them in Japan and Okinawa. They represent what true karate can do. With all the bad Mcdojos that are popping up it's no wonder people think karate is bad or weak, because they've never seen real karate. In North America though, you probbably won't find anyone that good.
LOL at people thinking any of this has anything to do with practical self defense. Everything being discussed in this thread is a lot closer to dancing than fighting.
You will almost never have the mental edge when you are attacked, and because of that, all your bad ass moves will amount to bupkiss. Professional MMA fighters lose street fights, and they fight for a living.
Threads like these always boil down to pissing matches between people defending the gym they joined because they thought it was the coolest one. It's like talking about swordfighting in context of modern warfare. Forms, kata's, stick fighting, it's all a lot closer to organized dance contests than anything remotely resembling actual fighting.
You're probably trolling, but I'll humor you.
One night a drunk man attacked me in a rage while yelling racist comments.
I had to send him to the hospital because he also tried to knock me down and wouldn't stop engaging me, despite his friends trying to restrain him.
You know, I feel bad about what I did, but considering how uncontrollable he became, I was glad I could defend myself from a guy bigger than me.
Then I wish I could tell you it only happened once, but I was attacked at least three times in bar brawls over the course of my life, mostly by fools who insist that people like me shouldn't be seen with people like them.
Sometimes otherwise friendly people who have done nothing wrong get physically picked on because we're discriminated, bullied, or otherwise mistreated, often for really stupid reasons.
Plus, we're mostly men here, and we're not yet even talking about a woman's perspective and defending herself from rape or sexual assault, in which case learning some self-defense pretty much doubles in value.
If I'm a "dancer" for not wanting to use lethal force, then so be it, but I still think it's better than the alternative. I don't want to live in a society where I have to carry a handgun just because some intolerant people can't keep their violent prejudices to themselves when they've had a little bit too much to drink.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
One night a drunk man attacked me in a rage while yelling racist comments.
I had to send him to the hospital because he also tried to knock me down and wouldn't stop engaging me, despite his friends trying to restrain him.
You know, I feel bad about what I did, but considering how uncontrollable he became, I was glad I could defend myself from a guy bigger than me.
Then I wish I could tell you it only happened once, but I was attacked at least three times in bar brawls over the course of my life, mostly by fools who insist that people like me shouldn't be seen with people like them.
Sometimes otherwise friendly people who have done nothing wrong get physically picked on because we're discriminated, bullied, or otherwise mistreated, often for really stupid reasons.
Plus, we're mostly men here, and we're not yet even talking about a woman's perspective and defending herself from rape or sexual assault, in which case learning some self-defense pretty much doubles in value.
If I'm a "dancer" for not wanting to use lethal force, then so be it, but I still think it's better than the alternative. I don't want to live in a society where I have to carry a handgun just because some intolerant people can't keep their violent prejudices to themselves when they've had a little bit too much to drink.
He was not Trolling (maybe for once, :D).
I am very impressed and glad that you did end the attackers life, but a drunk is rather easy to defeat (depends on drunk, level of alcohol, and size of person). What I think Valarin's point is that when someones attacks you; you fight to win/survive. Do some martial arts appear as dancing or just trying to be unique (gym versus gym); it's for the survivor of the attack to decide. You are in no means a "dancer", but use different fight techniques (put words in Valarin's mouth). Thus you could say your investment paid off.
Your last sentence about society is very questionable, cause the need for a gun depends on where you live or where you are currently standing on earth at certain time. I perfer a real weapon over hand to hand combat, cause a fair fight is one you could loose. What do you expect being at a bar? Drunk people say **** and pick fights for little or no reason?
LOL at people thinking any of this has anything to do with practical self defense. Everything being discussed in this thread is a lot closer to dancing than fighting.
Threads evolve. Get over it.
Enough people have said at the start that the best practical self defense is either a gun/being able to run really fast/understand when you should be running from situations that it's no longer useful to repeat over and over.
What I think Valarin's point is that when someones attacks you; you fight to win/survive. Do some martial arts appear as dancing or just trying to be unique (gym versus gym);
While it's certainly true that there is an undue emphasis on 'styles', and some practitioners are more deeply dedicated to the concept of 'better' school than others, it's true that when it comes down to it you won't have the same mindset you do in gym.
What that point ignores is the entire purpose of training. We train people to react in a certain way without the need to think all the time in society - we train our soldiers, our firefighters, our EMTs, our police officers to perform tasks and actions on the fly in tense situations.
The purpose of martial arts training is to build muscle memory so that when you're attacked, you don't have to think about how to react, you just react. That means while you certainly aren't going to do any fancy moves, you'll have a better chance of survival than the average person with no training or conditioning to handle tense scenarios.
While it's certainly true that there is an undue emphasis on 'styles', and some practitioners are more deeply dedicated to the concept of 'better' school than others, it's true that when it comes down to it you won't have the same mindset you do in gym.
What that point ignores is the entire purpose of training. We train people to react in a certain way without the need to think all the time in society - we train our soldiers, our firefighters, our EMTs, our police officers to perform tasks and actions on the fly in tense situations.
The purpose of martial arts training is to build muscle memory so that when you're attacked, you don't have to think about how to react, you just react. That means while you certainly aren't going to do any fancy moves, you'll have a better chance of survival than the average person with no training or conditioning to handle tense scenarios.
You only provided part of my sentence to dissect to a conclusion?
I have not attempted all the martial arts to have an opinion on them. I said the survivor gets to decide whether the martial art was useful. Muscle memory is way out of the field of discussion, cause ALL of the martial arts form this in your brain with practice. Even Firearms training forms muscle memory. Not relevent. Granted, learning some martial arts are better than non, but a reliance on one martial art completely in fight as your only fighting method is a far fetched rationality. No one wants to end up in a fight, but fighting to survive uses all tools at hand. Some us perfer to enter the fight with an advantage as a hunter does. If you are not prepared or well rounded in self protection; good luck. You missunderstood me and Valarin completely.
The infraction against Valarin also is wrong. He stated what some individuals think about martial arts, and got an infraction? I ask you whether that was biased? He may have said the comment in the rough, but real weapons favor the survivor. I was in Takwondo for years, and thought it was a song and dance just to win medal and belts after I started cowboy action shooting, Combat handgun training, then airsoft. There were many tournaments I attended where a particular school's politics plaid greater roles in winning forms medals than actual form perfection, but that was personal expieriance.
Please take any discussion of infractions or moderator actions to my helpdesk. - Jay13x
Yeah, try to put someone in a submission hold when that person is biting your face/neck/any of multiple targets throughout your body. It ain't happening.
True, if that is the case you will never land the submission. I was saying if you were in a superior position then a bit/scratch etc will not be as effective not saying going for it against a feral/struggling opponent it will happen.
Very false. Have you ever seen a Muay Thai match? They just beat each other while standing there. There's no footwork involved, and they punch and kick wide. It's brutish and sloppy, there's no refinement involved.
Yes i have. I watch a lot of fights actually. This statement is completely untrue they do not "beat eachother while standing there" they do not punch or kick wide, there are an array of attacks that could and would be thrown at any moment. There is a lot of refinement in muay thai. They have taken a lot if not all of its boxing techniques from western boxing. The kicks you need a lot of footwork as well. There are 4 different targets on a body for said kicks. You need to be quick on switching the kicks as well. To say there is no footwork is completely false. Try watching a high level muay thai fight like yodsanklai, buakaw, jon wayne par, mike zambidis and tell me they do not have any foot work.
And I'm going to emphasize footwork because it's not only one of boxing's greatest strengths, it's probably the most important attribute you can hone. A person who knows footwork controls the distance of a fight, and if you control the distance of a fight, you control the fight. A person who is proficient at footwork controls when he's in range of his opponent's attacks and when he isn't.
Again they do focus on footwork. Your first few classes at the gym im at is all footwork. Thats it. They teach you foot work basic movement, switching stance etc. The only real difference in movement with muay thai and western boxing would be the bobbing. In muay thai you cannot bob down because if you do you open your self up to clinches and knees.
And if someone gets you with an eye gouge you're freaking done. Saying that someone might theoretically be able to stop the attack and counter does not invalidate the usefulness, especially since a fingerjab is one of the fastest attacks you can throw because it requires minimal power.
There are martial arts that focus on blocking/preventing eye gouges? I have never heard of that at all, if this is the case i will concede this argument. The fact of eye pokes etc is true regardless of what you learned should one land you are blind and they really hurt. It would be hard to train for this situation or even preventing it.
He was very fortunate and I'm glad he was not killed.
That being said, you should NEVER attempt to grapple with someone who is armed with a knife. This is not an instance that is to be looked on as some kind of model or example.
I agree with you 100% you should not happen and he is lucky he didnt die. You should not grapple but my initial statement was that knowing bjj in a street fight is a lot better than knowing nothing. I was using this as some points as evidence that it is not useless in a street fight.
Your last sentence about society is very questionable, cause the need for a gun depends on where you live or where you are currently standing on earth at certain time. I perfer a real weapon over hand to hand combat, cause a fair fight is one you could loose. What do you expect being at a bar? Drunk people say **** and pick fights for little or no reason?
Okay, allow me to clarify: what I meant was (and this has to be seen in the context of my previous posts in this thread as well) that I simply don't like having a weapon on me that could inflict lethal damage, since it disturbs my peace of mind. If you're comfortable carrying a firearm with you at all times and don't mind the fact that you could end a person's life in the heat of an attack, that's up to you, but I personally wouldn't do it. I'm all for having enough means to protect oneself, sure, but not to murder someone in the blink of an eye. Misunderstandings do happen, and I don't think it's fair to simply shoot a person as the primary reaction, unless you're absolutely certain he intends to kill you first. Not to mention the sheer temptation to abuse having something so potent on you... without a lot of self control, that wouldn't end well.
Of course, if we're talking about a sober opponent who intends to really do me in, with full knowledge of what he's doing, then I agree with you that having a more powerful weapon than he would simply be the better course of action, and all concepts of "fair fighting" should go out the window. However for an unexpected bar or street brawl caused by a person who just wants to start trouble for no good reason? I'd prefer not bringing something dangerous with me when I'm just out to have a good time with friends, thank you. For those cases I'd either rely on something lying around to use as a makeshift weapon, or a swift incapacitation move (assuming running away or avoiding conflict through mediation isn't possible, of course). It's worked well so far, but you're right in that it's probably different in countries with more liberal access to firearms though, so context does matter.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Eh. This is turning into the usual circle jerk of martial arts threads.
The thing we can all agree on is that the most important thing is quality instruction. Don't go to some 2 bit school.
Important aspects to a legit school are sparring (probably light contact for beginning students, but watch the high ranks/black belts- it should look like medium/heavy contact), instructors that are on the floor teaching and correcting students (not sitting in a mat and not just yelling and ignoring other students), and ask other customers their feelings and thoughts about the level of service and competency.
I think regardless of your feelings on the various arts, I'm sure we can all agree this is really the way to go.
A very humorous take, but agreed 100%. People often forget how important it can be to attract attention to an area if you are being mugged, jumped, etc. Criminals don't like a crowd (though barfights do).
I will always love the Jews for giving the world Krav Maga. I really do like it.
I'm not familiar with half the styles mentioned in this thread but would like to add that boxing and wrestling is not designed or suited for self defence. The wrestling crouched type of stance is grossly ineffective means of self defense. Also boxing does have the distinction of g the strongest punchers but the fact remains that is all they do. You are not going to always have the chance of landing a punch. It is also very easy to hurt your hands with a wrist that is not straight. The boxing gloves do help boxers with that so if you are punching without them you are going to have to be well skilled to avoid injury.
also, pro fighters losing to OTHER pro fighters in the street does not count -_-
If you actually believe this then you know SO LITTLE about martial arts that I'm not even going to bother trying to change your mind.
I'm guessing you probbably didn't read the rest of my post, and have no clue who the two people I mentioned are. And I do know quite a bit about martial arts. I've been training karate for 15 years now. I'm not saying Muay Thai is bad, it's just not as indomitable as you make it out to be.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
also, pro fighters losing to OTHER pro fighters in the street does not count -_-
Maiquel Falcao, middleweight (pretty beastly middleweight too, fired from the UFC for not letting go of a chokehold cause he wanted to hurt the other guy)
All the martial arts training generally means bupkiss when you have multiple guys and one had a baseball bat.
Like I said, the #1 warning sign you should use when finding a good martial arts school is if the instructors or people who go there try to act like street fighting badasses and say they can turn you into one to. I know martial arts are cool, I trained in kung fu for many a year myself, they can help get you in great shape, they are fun, and you can meet cool people. I don't know why that can't be enough for some people.
And on the getting in shape front, the most physically intense martial art to train, bar none, is wu shu. One good wu shu session will have the most in shape guy in the world feeling like he was going to puke out a lung.
All the martial arts training generally means bupkiss when you have multiple guys and one had a baseball bat.
Whhaaattt.... professional fighters lose to someone blindsiding you with a baseball bat. I thought doing martial arts would make me bullet, knife, and blunt trama proof.
All martial arts will lose to someone blindsiding you with a large blunt object, a blade, or a gun. I can not infact, karate chop a bullet in half.
That said, all fights don't involve four dudes and a baseball bat.
I do remember a couple guys from the Ring of Fire amateur MMA tournament in Denver a couple years back got their clocks cleaned in street fight situations but, I think both involved ambushes.
Okay, allow me to clarify: what I meant was (and this has to be seen in the context of my previous posts in this thread as well) that I simply don't like having a weapon on me that could inflict lethal damage, since it disturbs my peace of mind. If you're comfortable carrying a firearm with you at all times and don't mind the fact that you could end a person's life in the heat of an attack, that's up to you, but I personally wouldn't do it. I'm all for having enough means to protect oneself, sure, but not to murder someone in the blink of an eye. Misunderstandings do happen, and I don't think it's fair to simply shoot a person as the primary reaction, unless you're absolutely certain he intends to kill you first. Not to mention the sheer temptation to abuse having something so potent on you... without a lot of self control, that wouldn't end well.
Of course, if we're talking about a sober opponent who intends to really do me in, with full knowledge of what he's doing, then I agree with you that having a more powerful weapon than he would simply be the better course of action, and all concepts of "fair fighting" should go out the window. However for an unexpected bar or street brawl caused by a person who just wants to start trouble for no good reason? I'd prefer not bringing something dangerous with me when I'm just out to have a good time with friends, thank you. For those cases I'd either rely on something lying around to use as a makeshift weapon, or a swift incapacitation move (assuming running away or avoiding conflict through mediation isn't possible, of course). It's worked well so far, but you're right in that it's probably different in countries with more liberal access to firearms though, so context does matter.
Completly understand your point of view and I do believe it is illegal in most states (US only) to carry a gun into a bar as a civilian. It is a matter of personal choice to carry a weapon of any kind. I always get a laugh out of any statement of "I don't want to live in a society where...".
I think I'll check out the krav maga school nearby.
I did want to add a little bit for kendo. I can't say that kendo actually taught me any specific physical techniques to use in a fight, but I did pick up a few things from it, namely:
1) the concept of reacting to a person's movements. (in a jkd intercepting fist kind of way) you're supposed to move when the other guy moves.
2) Maai, a better intuition of distances in a fighting situation
3) acclimation to extremely fast moving objects, both with eye training and reflexes. An ordinary person's punches felt downright slow compared to a shinai--which makes sense from a physics perspective
4) The concept of power behind attacks.
5) a better appreciation for the importance of center line. The idea that single strong attack with a dedicated heart can not only meet an incoming attack, but finish its own attack. (although I have never successfully pulled this off when I did NOT control the center)
6) Innervation of the solar plexus and adjoining abdominals in a single reflex arc is actually a thing.
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Ahh, well, you'd enjoy Wing Chun, then. Honestly, it only really has like...a distinct number of traps that are technically useful, Bruce Lee boiled them down to around 9 but any who, the center line is serious business in the art so I'd think you'd enjoy it.
If you're going with Krav then seriously look for all the earkmarks of the "mcdojo". If you see any ads in the place with a house Mom or an obvious attractive model in hand wraps you'll know you're in the wrong place. If you see the instructors sitting down and not even working on the mats or on the bags with the students especially during the line drills...you're in the wrong place. If all you get is philosophy about self defense and magical stories about what you can do against a knife, or multiple attackers, and little to no gun defense...you're in the wrong place. That is all they had in Denver as far as Krav Maga goes...it is why the art is so terrible there(we had a higher up police detective and his friends learn a bunch of Kali there because the Krav got a couple guys in the Thornton police department seriously injured).
It has a lot benefits but, it is so poorly taught in this country. Honestly, it has some things I don't like about it but, it makes up for it with that iron clad gun defense...if you learn nothing else from it learn the gun defense moves. They're pretty solid. Even a Kali mad ex-Marine Mercenary instructor for furthered combat and gun skills like Kelly McCann emphasizes Krav for gun defense and that's a pretty solid recommendation in its own.
And a grown man can die from being punched in the head by a 17 year old.
Further, I think you misunderstand the purpose of a jab. The purpose of a jab is not to one-shot the opponent. It's a jab. It's a fast shot. You aim for the face because that's a large, obvious target that pays off if successful, and because it's something that's at your eye level, which means it's easier to aim for it while still keeping defended, as opposed to a kidney shot.
Further, a jab need not be a closed fist. Finger jabbing the eye will always provoke a response.
Why the hell would I trade blows with anyone?
The point is not to throw a single attack. The point is to throw the attack, and if it pays off, in that time while the opponent is recovering, respond with another attack. Or book it out of there. Or both.
Yeah, because the alternative would be leather strap brawling and people getting disfigured or killed. Boxing is easily one of the most useful of any of the combat arts because its techniques, conditioning, and attribute development are applicable in virtually any situation.
Yeah, this part's ridiculous.
Way to over generalize...again. Karate and Taekwondo have positive things to offer just like any martial art. Studying Muay Thai is no guarantee that you'll win a stand up fight. Just one small example, Karate roundhouse kicks vs Thai kicks. Sure the Thai kicks can hit harder but they are also a lot easier to see coming and avoid. A blocked Karate roundhouse might not hurt as much as a Thai one but one that isn't blocked can score a KO just as easily. They both have their merits, you really shouldn't just dismiss an entire art.
For reference, here is a couple videos of Taekwondo fighters beating Thai fighters. Yep, it does happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPNoGhdhKyw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9ZXos8LfQ
Taekwondo has worked just fine for the likes of Anderson Silva, Anthony Pettis and Cung Le. Karate has worked just fine for Lyoto Machida, GSP, Bas Rutten and Chuck Liddell. There's plenty of other people who have had great success with the arts you claim are total crap. There is no such thing as the best art. I've gone on record as saying I think BJJ is overrated for real life/street type situations (plus American style wrestling is like kryptonite for BJJ) but I'd never say anything about it even close to the stuff you say about the arts you don't like. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's worthless. The best fighters I know are Karate fighters and they don't buy into any of the inner energy hokum that you seem to think is at the base of every style of Karate out there.
Well going in with a tornado kick is really dicey, I mean flying knees or flying triangles have the same really high risk, high reward and effect.
And in that second video that MT fighter should have been trying to stay a lot closer (Not that he wasn't trying, but you can't really absorb one kick and not expect a follow up from a TKD fighter).
Not to say I haven't met a few good TKD fighters, but the best usually aren't pure TKD or their teacher showed them how to punch too. Just kicking is rarely enough.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
You listed this under "terrible", but that's only because you're focusing on the stick fighting aspect.
Which is why I'd like to bring this up:
Oh, and this:
It's not just stickfighting. Like I mentioned over and over, the ability to fight with weapons is nice, in some situations it's feasible, but the real thing you learn from FMAs is how to fight armed opponents, whether or not you have a weapon, and in many cases, you'd be ill-advised to carry one anyway, since there are so many potential weapons lying around (and the movements you learn in stick and knife drills optimize how to use them), and an untrained opponent would likely provide you with one if you disarm him properly.
Dismissing FMAs as "merely stick fighting" because of how they are popularly and iconically presented in pop culture is rather shallow.
How well do you do against one?
You will almost never have the mental edge when you are attacked, and because of that, all your bad ass moves will amount to bupkiss. Professional MMA fighters lose street fights, and they fight for a living.
Threads like these always boil down to pissing matches between people defending the gym they joined because they thought it was the coolest one. It's like talking about swordfighting in context of modern warfare. Forms, kata's, stick fighting, it's all a lot closer to organized dance contests than anything remotely resembling actual fighting.
Infraction for trolling issued. You can criticize the opinions of previous posters without being deliberately inflammatory - Jay13x
A Muay Thai practitioner may be able to win in a ring with rules, but not in a real fight. Look up Mas Oyama or Gogen Yamaguchi and then tell me again how a muay thai practitioner could beat a well trained karate master. These two could beat anyone alive today and I'm sure there's many more like them in Japan and Okinawa. They represent what true karate can do. With all the bad Mcdojos that are popping up it's no wonder people think karate is bad or weak, because they've never seen real karate. In North America though, you probbably won't find anyone that good.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
You're probably trolling, but I'll humor you.
One night a drunk man attacked me in a rage while yelling racist comments.
I had to send him to the hospital because he also tried to knock me down and wouldn't stop engaging me, despite his friends trying to restrain him.
You know, I feel bad about what I did, but considering how uncontrollable he became, I was glad I could defend myself from a guy bigger than me.
Then I wish I could tell you it only happened once, but I was attacked at least three times in bar brawls over the course of my life, mostly by fools who insist that people like me shouldn't be seen with people like them.
Sometimes otherwise friendly people who have done nothing wrong get physically picked on because we're discriminated, bullied, or otherwise mistreated, often for really stupid reasons.
Plus, we're mostly men here, and we're not yet even talking about a woman's perspective and defending herself from rape or sexual assault, in which case learning some self-defense pretty much doubles in value.
If I'm a "dancer" for not wanting to use lethal force, then so be it, but I still think it's better than the alternative. I don't want to live in a society where I have to carry a handgun just because some intolerant people can't keep their violent prejudices to themselves when they've had a little bit too much to drink.
How well do you do against one?
He was not Trolling (maybe for once, :D).
I am very impressed and glad that you did end the attackers life, but a drunk is rather easy to defeat (depends on drunk, level of alcohol, and size of person). What I think Valarin's point is that when someones attacks you; you fight to win/survive. Do some martial arts appear as dancing or just trying to be unique (gym versus gym); it's for the survivor of the attack to decide. You are in no means a "dancer", but use different fight techniques (put words in Valarin's mouth). Thus you could say your investment paid off.
Your last sentence about society is very questionable, cause the need for a gun depends on where you live or where you are currently standing on earth at certain time. I perfer a real weapon over hand to hand combat, cause a fair fight is one you could loose. What do you expect being at a bar? Drunk people say **** and pick fights for little or no reason?
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
Threads evolve. Get over it.
Enough people have said at the start that the best practical self defense is either a gun/being able to run really fast/understand when you should be running from situations that it's no longer useful to repeat over and over.
While it's certainly true that there is an undue emphasis on 'styles', and some practitioners are more deeply dedicated to the concept of 'better' school than others, it's true that when it comes down to it you won't have the same mindset you do in gym.
What that point ignores is the entire purpose of training. We train people to react in a certain way without the need to think all the time in society - we train our soldiers, our firefighters, our EMTs, our police officers to perform tasks and actions on the fly in tense situations.
The purpose of martial arts training is to build muscle memory so that when you're attacked, you don't have to think about how to react, you just react. That means while you certainly aren't going to do any fancy moves, you'll have a better chance of survival than the average person with no training or conditioning to handle tense scenarios.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You only provided part of my sentence to dissect to a conclusion?
I have not attempted all the martial arts to have an opinion on them. I said the survivor gets to decide whether the martial art was useful. Muscle memory is way out of the field of discussion, cause ALL of the martial arts form this in your brain with practice. Even Firearms training forms muscle memory. Not relevent. Granted, learning some martial arts are better than non, but a reliance on one martial art completely in fight as your only fighting method is a far fetched rationality. No one wants to end up in a fight, but fighting to survive uses all tools at hand. Some us perfer to enter the fight with an advantage as a hunter does. If you are not prepared or well rounded in self protection; good luck. You missunderstood me and Valarin completely.
The infraction against Valarin also is wrong. He stated what some individuals think about martial arts, and got an infraction? I ask you whether that was biased? He may have said the comment in the rough, but real weapons favor the survivor. I was in Takwondo for years, and thought it was a song and dance just to win medal and belts after I started cowboy action shooting, Combat handgun training, then airsoft. There were many tournaments I attended where a particular school's politics plaid greater roles in winning forms medals than actual form perfection, but that was personal expieriance.
Please take any discussion of infractions or moderator actions to my helpdesk. - Jay13x
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
True, if that is the case you will never land the submission. I was saying if you were in a superior position then a bit/scratch etc will not be as effective not saying going for it against a feral/struggling opponent it will happen.
Yes i have. I watch a lot of fights actually. This statement is completely untrue they do not "beat eachother while standing there" they do not punch or kick wide, there are an array of attacks that could and would be thrown at any moment. There is a lot of refinement in muay thai. They have taken a lot if not all of its boxing techniques from western boxing. The kicks you need a lot of footwork as well. There are 4 different targets on a body for said kicks. You need to be quick on switching the kicks as well. To say there is no footwork is completely false. Try watching a high level muay thai fight like yodsanklai, buakaw, jon wayne par, mike zambidis and tell me they do not have any foot work.
Again they do focus on footwork. Your first few classes at the gym im at is all footwork. Thats it. They teach you foot work basic movement, switching stance etc. The only real difference in movement with muay thai and western boxing would be the bobbing. In muay thai you cannot bob down because if you do you open your self up to clinches and knees.
There are martial arts that focus on blocking/preventing eye gouges? I have never heard of that at all, if this is the case i will concede this argument. The fact of eye pokes etc is true regardless of what you learned should one land you are blind and they really hurt. It would be hard to train for this situation or even preventing it.
I agree with you 100% you should not happen and he is lucky he didnt die. You should not grapple but my initial statement was that knowing bjj in a street fight is a lot better than knowing nothing. I was using this as some points as evidence that it is not useless in a street fight.
Find me a single instance.
also, pro fighters losing to OTHER pro fighters in the street does not count -_-
If you actually believe this then you know SO LITTLE about martial arts that I'm not even going to bother trying to change your mind.
Okay, allow me to clarify: what I meant was (and this has to be seen in the context of my previous posts in this thread as well) that I simply don't like having a weapon on me that could inflict lethal damage, since it disturbs my peace of mind. If you're comfortable carrying a firearm with you at all times and don't mind the fact that you could end a person's life in the heat of an attack, that's up to you, but I personally wouldn't do it. I'm all for having enough means to protect oneself, sure, but not to murder someone in the blink of an eye. Misunderstandings do happen, and I don't think it's fair to simply shoot a person as the primary reaction, unless you're absolutely certain he intends to kill you first. Not to mention the sheer temptation to abuse having something so potent on you... without a lot of self control, that wouldn't end well.
Of course, if we're talking about a sober opponent who intends to really do me in, with full knowledge of what he's doing, then I agree with you that having a more powerful weapon than he would simply be the better course of action, and all concepts of "fair fighting" should go out the window. However for an unexpected bar or street brawl caused by a person who just wants to start trouble for no good reason? I'd prefer not bringing something dangerous with me when I'm just out to have a good time with friends, thank you. For those cases I'd either rely on something lying around to use as a makeshift weapon, or a swift incapacitation move (assuming running away or avoiding conflict through mediation isn't possible, of course). It's worked well so far, but you're right in that it's probably different in countries with more liberal access to firearms though, so context does matter.
How well do you do against one?
The thing we can all agree on is that the most important thing is quality instruction. Don't go to some 2 bit school.
Important aspects to a legit school are sparring (probably light contact for beginning students, but watch the high ranks/black belts- it should look like medium/heavy contact), instructors that are on the floor teaching and correcting students (not sitting in a mat and not just yelling and ignoring other students), and ask other customers their feelings and thoughts about the level of service and competency.
EDIT:
A very humorous take, but agreed 100%. People often forget how important it can be to attract attention to an area if you are being mugged, jumped, etc. Criminals don't like a crowd (though barfights do).
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
I'm not familiar with half the styles mentioned in this thread but would like to add that boxing and wrestling is not designed or suited for self defence. The wrestling crouched type of stance is grossly ineffective means of self defense. Also boxing does have the distinction of g the strongest punchers but the fact remains that is all they do. You are not going to always have the chance of landing a punch. It is also very easy to hurt your hands with a wrist that is not straight. The boxing gloves do help boxers with that so if you are punching without them you are going to have to be well skilled to avoid injury.
I'm guessing you probbably didn't read the rest of my post, and have no clue who the two people I mentioned are. And I do know quite a bit about martial arts. I've been training karate for 15 years now. I'm not saying Muay Thai is bad, it's just not as indomitable as you make it out to be.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Maiquel Falcao, middleweight (pretty beastly middleweight too, fired from the UFC for not letting go of a chokehold cause he wanted to hurt the other guy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_y859xp0vac
All the martial arts training generally means bupkiss when you have multiple guys and one had a baseball bat.
Like I said, the #1 warning sign you should use when finding a good martial arts school is if the instructors or people who go there try to act like street fighting badasses and say they can turn you into one to. I know martial arts are cool, I trained in kung fu for many a year myself, they can help get you in great shape, they are fun, and you can meet cool people. I don't know why that can't be enough for some people.
And on the getting in shape front, the most physically intense martial art to train, bar none, is wu shu. One good wu shu session will have the most in shape guy in the world feeling like he was going to puke out a lung.
Whhaaattt.... professional fighters lose to someone blindsiding you with a baseball bat. I thought doing martial arts would make me bullet, knife, and blunt trama proof.
All martial arts will lose to someone blindsiding you with a large blunt object, a blade, or a gun. I can not infact, karate chop a bullet in half.
That said, all fights don't involve four dudes and a baseball bat.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Completly understand your point of view and I do believe it is illegal in most states (US only) to carry a gun into a bar as a civilian. It is a matter of personal choice to carry a weapon of any kind. I always get a laugh out of any statement of "I don't want to live in a society where...".
This made my day, thank you.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!