Very interesting experiment Honduras is doing here - seen some friends theorize that they think one or more will end up the arcology route (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology) - I'm not so sure myself, but regardless the entire concept is going to be fascinating to watch develop.
[Note: Mods I do realize this could potentially spawn something Debate-worthy - but I feel this is the best place to start - please move if necc]
I find it an interesting proposition. I know there are more and more government services being auctioned off to private things here in the US as well.
Why? it is cheaper for government to outsource these things than do it themselves. the fee they pay is less than the 50-100 people they would have to employee with salaries and benefits.
a private city is going to be interesting more so how the governments and such are setup and run.
I can see why some groups would be against it. probably in order to live there you will have a job. you will do something. even if it is sweeping the street.
going to be interesting to see if this works out.
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Indeed it will - if it wasn't Honduras I'd almost be curious about checking out the requirements as they open up.
That type of environment due to the necessity of it partially, seems like it would be a much stronger knit community - since the communities goals would have to strongly mesh for it to thrive.
Not to mention the entire "Bioshock's Rapture" type of vibe the experiment could result in with some variants of thinking it out.
If it succeeds, it will be hailed as a great experiment, if it fails there are always going to be the I told you so group. I think its an interesting concept that could possibly work if done correct. Sadly to make it work correctly the towns will have to establish population caps and such to keep everything running smoothly. That in itself may be the biggest down fall of the system.
I could see this being the in thing for countries across the globe if this pans out well in Honduras.
The population issues I see as one of the biggest problems unfortunately. Its difficult to be able to control such things without creating a much larger mess than one may have started with or was prepared to deal with. The US, being not nearly as densely populated as most countries, is allready running into issues of having too many people and not enough job to go around.
I do look forward to seeing how the experiment works out though either way.
I find it an interesting proposition. I know there are more and more government services being auctioned off to private things here in the US as well.
Why? it is cheaper for government to outsource these things than do it themselves. the fee they pay is less than the 50-100 people they would have to employee with salaries and benefits.
I just want to interject here and say that for many of these services, they are being auctioned off for the short-term money influx. Rights to tax the Chicago Skyway for 100 years were sold for something like $2 billion to attempt to get the city out of the money crevasse it appears to have fallen into. [spoiler: it didn't work]
This is a very interesting proposal, though. I hope it works out - there are a lot of negative possibilities, of course, but perhaps the free market works on a city level - with the right regulations on it.
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my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
The population issues I see as one of the biggest problems unfortunately. Its difficult to be able to control such things without creating a much larger mess than one may have started with or was prepared to deal with. The US, being not nearly as densely populated as most countries, is allready running into issues of having too many people and not enough job to go around.
I do look forward to seeing how the experiment works out though either way.
It would require a very tight security system on the cities part to keep people that did not belong there out.
visitors would be welcome of course but unless they had rented a place in the city they would have to leave.
population control is a key to this thing surviving long term. industry is another. the more industry they get the more population they can have.
social service i figure will be a minimum as to not attract people there or very limited in scope.
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Dunno mystery45 - since presumably it will be an entire city working on a single industry, there would be benefit to supplying a social net - like company doctors - rather than providing health insurance.
I expect there will be plenty of social nets, just not in the normal sorts that we're used to.
Dunno mystery45 - since presumably it will be an entire city working on a single industry, there would be benefit to supplying a social net - like company doctors - rather than providing health insurance.
I expect there will be plenty of social nets, just not in the normal sorts that we're used to.
actually it would be cheaper to have an in house doctor to take care of employee's than insurance for them.
in fact it would probably be cheaper to have a medical staff site. getting drugs at whole sale are cheaper than what you can get from the doctors themselves.
there is like a 200-300% markup from the doctor to you.
case in point the lady that had a scorpin sting. doctor went we have the anti-venom. he didn't tell her that it was 40K a dose and it took 2.
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Seems to me that it would be very easy to set up a company store that way. Yes you get a job, but you are basically a slave to the company. I think there have to be some kind of limits.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Didn't coal mining companies in the Appalachians do this same thing, but ended up abusing it for profit and the area never really recovered?
Not really although similar.
what the old coal mines did was pay you in script. that script could only be used at the company store. The company store usually charged double what a regular general store would cost.
that didn't include your rent for your home or mining equipment that you had to buy.
It lead to the coal wars the most famous being matwon.
No the area recovered just fine because the federal government finally had to get involved to stop all the killing going on.
what has hurt them more is the coal mines have been shutting down and there is little else in the area.
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So, it says in the article that these will have their own laws. Does anyone know if that means they will be subject to Honduran laws, but will also have their own local ordinances, or if it means that they'll have no laws but their own?
So, it says in the article that these will have their own laws. Does anyone know if that means they will be subject to Honduran laws, but will also have their own local ordinances, or if it means that they'll have no laws but their own?
probably end up like a territory. like guam and puerto rico. they are territories of the US. they are part of it but they have their own government and own laws.
that is about as close as you can get at this point.
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I pity people who will live in such libertarian paradise. On the other hand, it will play its role in showing libertarians where their ideas would lead.
Uh, what?
How is this 'libertarian':
Quote from article »
three privately run cities in Honduras that will have their own police, laws, government and tax systems now that the government has signed a memorandum of agreement approving the project.
The Honduran government is selling off mini-governments with a system of taxation and monopolistic law to (presumably) friends of its politicians.
So I would like you to tell me how you can read this article, see that the Honduran government is functioning essentially as a slave-trader and walk away with the idea that somehow, some way this makes government - the slave-trader - a hero?
Speaking of which, let's examine what the article has to say about our heroes:
Quote from article »
Honduras' weak government and failing infrastructure, overwhelmed by corruption, drug-related crime and lingering political instability after a 2009 coup.
These guys don't exactly sound like a bunch of winners.
Did a little research and the closest situation I could find to be the same was back when Goodyear had built a town in South America farming rubber trees for its tires. They had their own laws and rules with in the country and most of the work force was local. It was a boom town for a few years until synthetic rubber was invented and the town was abandon.
When I first read the idea, the first thing I thought was 'libertarians' but I want to hear the whole plan before making a judgement one way or the other.
Privatising everything is a core libertarian belief. At least on this side of the pond. These dudes would love to see private laws, private police, private courts and tax farmers without even thinking where it would lead.
Its is no coincidence that is looks like slave trading or, more precisely, like some sort of neo-feudalism. Private lords ruling over their peons? What could possibly go wrong?
Then you really don't understand the libertaian belief.
Libertarians don't believe in no government just limited government. that government should be contrained to the allowances that it was given and no more.
protection of citizens falls under one of those rolls of government.
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Then you really don't understand the libertaian belief.
Libertarians don't believe in no government just limited government. that government should be contrained to the allowances that it was given and no more.
protection of citizens falls under one of those rolls of government.
Actually there has always been a small faction of "ultra laissez-faire" libertarians who have essentially advocated close to what is being described here: an anarchistic society in which all government functions (including police, courts, and military) are instead run by private for-profit companies. The underlying idea being that if all social necessities are run as economic exchanges, then people are "truly free" of coercion as all interactions and exchanges are consensual and voluntary, and that the invisible hand of the market is enough of an ordering force to maintain a society.
The idea is of course the stupidest thing ever, as "private police" will very quickly turn into mercenaries who bully, intimidate, or kill people who their boss doesn't like.
^^ That is not Libertarianism in the least, and to be honest, you think the police do not already bully and beat up on the people their bosses do not like? They opened fire on homeless people in California like a month ago. How many documented cases have been shown recently that actively display that this is exactly what they do already. How about everyone crying about police stopped Hispanics in Arizona? The police shooting into crowds in Seattle during the last G20 summit there?
Privatising everything is a core libertarian belief. At least on this side of the pond. These dudes would love to see private laws, private police, private courts and tax farmers without even thinking where it would lead.
No it isn't, and it's irritating to continually see it portrayed in that manner. Libertarianism is purely about letting people decide what is best for them on their own individual level. If you feel that a Socialist system would be best for you, then you have the right to form one locally or move to where one is already established.
Too many misconstrue what Libertarianism is and just assume that people like Paul Ryan and the "Tea Party" politicians are actually Libertarian. Ayn Rand also was not a Libertarian.
Its is no coincidence that is looks like slave trading or, more precisely, like some sort of neo-feudalism. Private lords ruling over their peons? What could possibly go wrong?
It wouldn't happen if the Government was not already the monopoly holder of all of the services and property in that region.
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Legacy Decks
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Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
He's technically right that its a form that falls under libertarianism but much like neoconservative and conservatism made fora confusing discussion of "that's not conservative" before neocon was coined and popularized - and as far as I'm aware that super fringe edge of libertarianism doesn't have a quick and easy moniker to separate it from normal libertarianism.
^^ You're just wrong. Corporations always move towards a monopoly in a Centralized Economy. It's because they exist in an environment where the government promotes and allow's their existence and gives them the ability to regulate their competition out of the market.
Quit excusing the Government as the innocent one in this situation, they are the one's that use their monopoly of the legal system and the currency to their advantage to buy favors from the corporations that they create and allow to exist in the first place. What you're doing is being dishonest to yourself. It was the Government through it's own malinvestment that sold the public assets to private corporations, not the corporations that bought the public assets from the people, whom are the actual rightful owner's of that public property.
He's technically right that its a form that falls under libertarianism but much like neoconservative and conservatism made fora confusing discussion of "that's not conservative" before neocon was coined and popularized - and as far as I'm aware that super fringe edge of libertarianism doesn't have a quick and easy moniker to separate it from normal libertarianism.
Ayn Rand's philosophy which is what he's actually referring to does have a name, it's Objectivism, and it's not even close to being related to Libertarianism. What this is an example of is pure monetarism under the moniker of supply-side economics. It's pure Chicago-School with Randian Objectivism and Milton Friedman's centralized marketing. This is the "Conservative" version of Keynesian economics and thought. In the 30's they called it Fascism.
If you're going to call something Libertarianism, at least understand what it is. Libertarianism is a philosophy of thought based upon the recognition that political action is is a direct violation of a persons right's. When another person act's in your favor he is in actuality stealing from another person the right to voluntarily deal with you in a free manner. Likewise when that same person act's in another person's favor, he is stealing from you.
This action by the Honduras government is clearly theft through political action. If they were truly going to do the Libertarian method they would have open auctions rather than back-room deals, and the only properties that would be for sale are those that were not within a neighborhood where the residents would have the first right to obtain ownership. Like I said, most people do not understand Libertarianism.
Very interesting experiment Honduras is doing here - seen some friends theorize that they think one or more will end up the arcology route (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology) - I'm not so sure myself, but regardless the entire concept is going to be fascinating to watch develop.
[Note: Mods I do realize this could potentially spawn something Debate-worthy - but I feel this is the best place to start - please move if necc]
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Why? it is cheaper for government to outsource these things than do it themselves. the fee they pay is less than the 50-100 people they would have to employee with salaries and benefits.
a private city is going to be interesting more so how the governments and such are setup and run.
I can see why some groups would be against it. probably in order to live there you will have a job. you will do something. even if it is sweeping the street.
going to be interesting to see if this works out.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
That type of environment due to the necessity of it partially, seems like it would be a much stronger knit community - since the communities goals would have to strongly mesh for it to thrive.
Not to mention the entire "Bioshock's Rapture" type of vibe the experiment could result in with some variants of thinking it out.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
I could see this being the in thing for countries across the globe if this pans out well in Honduras.
I do look forward to seeing how the experiment works out though either way.
I just want to interject here and say that for many of these services, they are being auctioned off for the short-term money influx. Rights to tax the Chicago Skyway for 100 years were sold for something like $2 billion to attempt to get the city out of the money crevasse it appears to have fallen into. [spoiler: it didn't work]
This is a very interesting proposal, though. I hope it works out - there are a lot of negative possibilities, of course, but perhaps the free market works on a city level - with the right regulations on it.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
It would require a very tight security system on the cities part to keep people that did not belong there out.
visitors would be welcome of course but unless they had rented a place in the city they would have to leave.
population control is a key to this thing surviving long term. industry is another. the more industry they get the more population they can have.
social service i figure will be a minimum as to not attract people there or very limited in scope.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I expect there will be plenty of social nets, just not in the normal sorts that we're used to.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
actually it would be cheaper to have an in house doctor to take care of employee's than insurance for them.
in fact it would probably be cheaper to have a medical staff site. getting drugs at whole sale are cheaper than what you can get from the doctors themselves.
there is like a 200-300% markup from the doctor to you.
case in point the lady that had a scorpin sting. doctor went we have the anti-venom. he didn't tell her that it was 40K a dose and it took 2.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
no i was agreeing with you.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Ah ok - too used to being on opposite sides I suppose.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Not really although similar.
what the old coal mines did was pay you in script. that script could only be used at the company store. The company store usually charged double what a regular general store would cost.
that didn't include your rent for your home or mining equipment that you had to buy.
It lead to the coal wars the most famous being matwon.
No the area recovered just fine because the federal government finally had to get involved to stop all the killing going on.
what has hurt them more is the coal mines have been shutting down and there is little else in the area.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
probably end up like a territory. like guam and puerto rico. they are territories of the US. they are part of it but they have their own government and own laws.
that is about as close as you can get at this point.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Uh, what?
How is this 'libertarian':
The Honduran government is selling off mini-governments with a system of taxation and monopolistic law to (presumably) friends of its politicians.
So I would like you to tell me how you can read this article, see that the Honduran government is functioning essentially as a slave-trader and walk away with the idea that somehow, some way this makes government - the slave-trader - a hero?
Speaking of which, let's examine what the article has to say about our heroes:
These guys don't exactly sound like a bunch of winners.
When I first read the idea, the first thing I thought was 'libertarians' but I want to hear the whole plan before making a judgement one way or the other.
Then you really don't understand the libertaian belief.
Libertarians don't believe in no government just limited government. that government should be contrained to the allowances that it was given and no more.
protection of citizens falls under one of those rolls of government.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Actually there has always been a small faction of "ultra laissez-faire" libertarians who have essentially advocated close to what is being described here: an anarchistic society in which all government functions (including police, courts, and military) are instead run by private for-profit companies. The underlying idea being that if all social necessities are run as economic exchanges, then people are "truly free" of coercion as all interactions and exchanges are consensual and voluntary, and that the invisible hand of the market is enough of an ordering force to maintain a society.
The idea is of course the stupidest thing ever, as "private police" will very quickly turn into mercenaries who bully, intimidate, or kill people who their boss doesn't like.
No it isn't, and it's irritating to continually see it portrayed in that manner. Libertarianism is purely about letting people decide what is best for them on their own individual level. If you feel that a Socialist system would be best for you, then you have the right to form one locally or move to where one is already established.
Too many misconstrue what Libertarianism is and just assume that people like Paul Ryan and the "Tea Party" politicians are actually Libertarian. Ayn Rand also was not a Libertarian.
It wouldn't happen if the Government was not already the monopoly holder of all of the services and property in that region.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Quit excusing the Government as the innocent one in this situation, they are the one's that use their monopoly of the legal system and the currency to their advantage to buy favors from the corporations that they create and allow to exist in the first place. What you're doing is being dishonest to yourself. It was the Government through it's own malinvestment that sold the public assets to private corporations, not the corporations that bought the public assets from the people, whom are the actual rightful owner's of that public property.
Ayn Rand's philosophy which is what he's actually referring to does have a name, it's Objectivism, and it's not even close to being related to Libertarianism. What this is an example of is pure monetarism under the moniker of supply-side economics. It's pure Chicago-School with Randian Objectivism and Milton Friedman's centralized marketing. This is the "Conservative" version of Keynesian economics and thought. In the 30's they called it Fascism.
If you're going to call something Libertarianism, at least understand what it is. Libertarianism is a philosophy of thought based upon the recognition that political action is is a direct violation of a persons right's. When another person act's in your favor he is in actuality stealing from another person the right to voluntarily deal with you in a free manner. Likewise when that same person act's in another person's favor, he is stealing from you.
This action by the Honduras government is clearly theft through political action. If they were truly going to do the Libertarian method they would have open auctions rather than back-room deals, and the only properties that would be for sale are those that were not within a neighborhood where the residents would have the first right to obtain ownership. Like I said, most people do not understand Libertarianism.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg: