I'm prepared for the countless number of posts that are going to dispute my usage of the word sexism, but whether you want to define it as sexist or something different either way my contention is that is bothersome.
My girlfriend and I have been together for more than two years and at our age we are beginning to discuss the idea of a life together. We've come to the conclusion that it would approximate our current relationship (except that we'd live together and have our finances linked, of course), but overall it would be the way it is now: while recognizing that we are naturally different due not only to gender but to personality and temperament, we accord equal deference to the hopes, dreams, desires, responsibilities and decision making of the other party.
We both expect to work and earn roughly similar amounts of income, so bills will be split 50/50. My career affords me more time off from work, so care of the household chores and children (if we have any) will be divided more like 60/40 with me taking slightly more responsibility.
Where we began to differ was on everything to do with the wedding. We decided that she would get:
1) A diamond engagement ring.
2) Me to ask for the "blessing" of her parents before an engagement.
Growing up I never had a problem with either of these concepts, and indeed I can be quite a "softie" at times. Additionally, I've always been the type to be overly polite and deferent to manners and such. But it was when I asked a few questions that I began to have a problem.
My girlfriend informed me that the reason the engagement ring was important to her was that it is a "custom, a sign of dedication and commitment to our love", I asked:
"That's my sign. What's yours?"
"The woman doesn't give an engagement ring."
"Well, doesn't that seem kinda unfair? My love is not the only love involved in this relationship, is it? If you want me to show commitment, shouldn't you?"
"You're getting the betrothal."
"Well, if I buy the more expensive engagement ring, will you buy the wedding bands?"
"The way it usually works is that you buy mine and I'll buy yours"
"But wouldn't it be fair to divide it that way since we're in an equal relationship, and we earn equal incomes?"
"That's not the way it works, though... it is romantic."
...and so it continued. At this point, I don't get it. It's not the money that is an issue for me, I swear to you. I would figure out a way to buy the moon itself if she wanted it, that's how much I love her. It's more a matter of principle though. I don't get why we're equal in all these respects but then I'm expected to shell out mega bucks for this at no cost to her...
On to #2.
I'm expected to ask for the bride's parents permission, I'm told, because I'm "joining her family". Wouldn't she be joining mine as well? So shouldn't she have to ask my parents likewise post facto?
I know she loves her parents, and as someone who loves her, I respect her parents because of this. At the same time, I find the thought of the whole process humiliating and demeaning. Her parents and I get along very well so I can almost guarantee that her parents would be thrilled to bless it if I asked her to marry me. With that said, for me this idea is somehow more anxiety inducing than the idea of a proposal itself. Here I have to get on bended knee not only for her, but her parents as well?
Actually, IMO, it should be kinda weird to her anyway, since this process is rooted in the idea that the bride is property of the groom. She certainly isn't going to be my property, so why should I have to act like it in this singular situation?
Well, we're still working it out and we're a long way from resolution on these issues.
Well, it's a matter of tradition and chivalry. Men do NOT have to be gentlemen, but at least I see it as being courteous and polite. If you're so deferent to manners then you would respect tradition and "knighthood" enough to carry out a traditional courtship that would please everyone (even if not you. That's the point: self-sacrifice. Do something that require works for the sake of others).
I'm expected to ask for the bride's parents permission, I'm told, because I'm "joining her family". Wouldn't she be joining mine as well? So shouldn't she have to ask my parents likewise post facto?
No, no. You have the custom all confused. The groom asks the bride's parents for permission not because he's "joining her family". Rather, it is the opposite: the bride is leaving her family and joining your family. Hence, she takes your last name. Hence husbands owned all the property. Hence, the father "presents" the bride at the wedding, holding her hand as she walks down the aisle. Hence, you have to ask her parents (particularly her father) because they "own" her to the point and they are transferring "ownership" to you. Back in the Dark Ages, women didn't own themselves. It has been like that from culture across culture from generation to generation... well until the modern era, that is.
I'm endlessly bothered by silly traditions like these, notions that are entirely out of date and only kept up because... well, it's what you do! I've no doubt you could successfully argue that things like the one-way ring are vestiges of unequal relationships. But it's not like that means anything; I know, I compulsively argue them.
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[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
My girlfriend informed me that the reason the engagement ring was important to her was that it is a "custom, a sign of dedication and commitment to our love", I asked:
"That's my sign. What's yours?"
"The woman doesn't give an engagement ring."
"Well, doesn't that seem kinda unfair? My love is not the only love involved in this relationship, is it? If you want me to show commitment, shouldn't you?"
"You're getting the betrothal."
"Well, if I buy the more expensive engagement ring, will you buy the wedding bands?"
"The way it usually works is that you buy mine and I'll buy yours"
"But wouldn't it be fair to divide it that way since we're in an equal relationship, and we earn equal incomes?"
"That's not the way it works, though... it is romantic."
I mean, seriously? This is where you're choosing to make your stand?
Relationships aren't about politics, ljoss. It's about cooperation. It's about recognizing that you're united and becoming a part of something more than you two, which is an "us", a family, and understanding that this family is something that will define you and that you will need to give yourself to.
...and so it continued. At this point, I don't get it. It's not the money that is an issue for me, I swear to you. I would figure out a way to buy the moon itself if she wanted it, that's how much I love her. It's more a matter of principle though. I don't get why we're equal in all these respects but then I'm expected to shell out mega bucks for this at no cost to her...
What principle?
I honestly don't understand this concept. Could you explain to me why buying a ring is such a problem?
I'm expected to ask for the bride's parents permission, I'm told, because I'm "joining her family". Wouldn't she be joining mine as well? So shouldn't she have to ask my parents likewise post facto?
Because she's leaving her family to become the matriarch of yours. It's the same reason why women change their last names, and why the father of the bride gives her away.
I know she loves her parents, and as someone who loves her, I respect her parents because of this. At the same time, I find the thought of the whole process humiliating and demeaning.
Her parents and I get along very well so I can almost guarantee that her parents would be thrilled to bless it if I asked her to marry me. With that said, for me this idea is somehow more anxiety inducing than the idea of a proposal itself. Here I have to get on bended knee not only for her, but her parents as well?
Again, I ask: why? It is, if nothing else, a show of respect to her family. I fail to see why this is the cause of so much concern.
Actually, IMO, it should be kinda weird to her anyway, since this process is rooted in the idea that the bride is property of the groom. She certainly isn't going to be my property, so why should I have to act like it in this singular situation?
Well, we're still working it out and we're a long way from resolution on these issues.
How do you all feel?
Honest reaction?
The only way anyone could possibly "see where you're coming from" is if they look at this purely in terms of theory. By purely in terms of theory, I mean totally removing themselves from reality and just looking at it in terms of "X should equal Y, X does not equal Y, Error does not compute". In other words, one could theoretically agree with you on a basic level, but the basic level comes from removing everything else and looking at it from purely one dimension.
This is easy to do for us, because we're not engaged to this woman, she is simply a concept, and you're just a disembodied voice on the internet. We are as completely detached from the situation as is possible. It is easy for us to treat this like a math problem because we're not emotionally involved in this in any way.
However, you ARE in a relationship with this woman, and you ARE attempting to build a family with her. The thing is, right now, it seems like your making a statement of equality is more important than giving your fiancee the wedding she wants. You may wish to think about this. Further, you may wish to consider whether an unwillingness to compromise and an unwillingness to do an unequal share of work are the best feet to put forward in this situation.
Which is a really tactful way of saying, "Stop being a baby, grow up, and do it."
Honestly, you have an eternity of happiness waiting for you with this woman, and all you need to do is buy her a diamond and talk to her family, neither of which are unreasonable things to do. Give her a sign of your unending love when you propose, and talk to her family to show you your respect for them and include them in your life together when she leaves her family and enter yours. You cannot possibly tell me this is too great a price to pay.
You know how logically dissecting a joke takes all the funniness out of it? Relationships are the same way. Trying to logically dissect one takes all the romance out of it.
I mean, seriously? This is where you're choosing to make your stand?
Relationships aren't about politics, ljoss. It's about cooperation. It's about recognizing that you're united and becoming a part of something more than you two, which is an "us", a family, and understanding that this family is something that will define you and that you will need to give yourself to.
Should I recognize that or both of us?
What principle?
The principle of equity that we have agreed upon, whereby since we have equal incomes, we've agreed to split bills equally. When it comes to getting her something she wants, I don't like the idea that I'm obligated to foot the entire bill. The problem is not at all with the idea itself but with the idea that it is a non-assumed obligation to pay a tremendous sum where there is no reciprocity.
I honestly don't understand this concept. Could you explain to me why buying a ring is such a problem?
It's the fact that we have equal incomes and have agreed to an equal relationship, therefore, I do not think I should be obliged to pay the entire sum to get her an item she wants and yet have no reciprocity.
A simple alleviation of this problem would be for her to offer to reciprocate in some way, even an offer of reciprocity would suffice for me (that I may then turn down).
So basically the idea is that in the context of a purportedly equal relationship, I am required to take on a greater responsibility for, to be honest, no apparent reason at all. (Other than to show it off to friends)
Because she's leaving her family to become the matriarch of yours. It's the same reason why women change their last names, and why the father of the bride gives her away.
Well, the woman changing her last name is a problem to me but I guess for reasons of parsimony I don't mind it that much. I remember all those kids in school with the hyphenated last names, that is fine but it gets ridiculous. I mean, what happens when they get married then? Do they triple hyphenate?
Anyway, I do have a problem with the concept of the bride being "given away", as I've already discussed we have agreed to an equal relationship, why should we continue to pretend that she is some quasi-property of mine when she isn't and won't be?
Again, I ask: why? It is, if nothing else, a show of respect to her family. I fail to see why this is the cause of so much concern.
I think I explained why, because it is hypocritical. If the groom requires the blessing of the bride's family, shouldn't the bride then require the blessing of the groom's family? Again, in the context of an equal relationship.
Honest reaction?
The only way anyone could possibly "see where you're coming from" is if they look at this purely in terms of theory. By purely in terms of theory, I mean totally removing themselves from reality and just looking at it in terms of "X should equal Y, X does not equal Y, Error does not compute".
Logic is required in order for life itself to function. Logic is required just for us to have this conversation. Logic is the most necessary component of reality, removing logic from reality is removing reality from reality. So yes, I'm asking you to look at reality, not culture.
However, you ARE in a relationship with this woman, and you ARE attempting to build a family with her. The thing is, right now, it seems like your making a statement of equality is more important than giving your fiancee the wedding she wants.
HR, you may be one of the most intelligent people that I've ever conversed with, so I'm going to trust that you will be open to examining the logic of the statement you just made. So grant me the permission to offer a few observations on it?
I am being chided because I have not placed her wants for X above my wants for Y. She too has not placed my wants for Y above her wants for X. Therefore, according to this logic, she too must be chided.
You may wish to think about this. Further, you may wish to consider whether an unwillingness to compromise and an unwillingness to do an unequal share of work are the best feet to put forward in this situation.
When the entire premise of a relationship is that of equality then I expect to do an equal amount of work when possible, yes.
Honestly, you have an eternity of happiness waiting for you with this woman, and all you need to do is buy her a diamond and talk to her family, neither of which are unreasonable things to do. Give her a sign of your unending love when you propose, and talk to her family to show you your respect for them and include them in your life together when she leaves her family and enter yours. You cannot possibly tell me this is too great a price to pay.
No offense, but I get the sense that is just a wordy way of saying "don't think".
I prefer to examine the principles I hold whenever possible and attempt to ascertain whether certain actions would live up to them or not. I would hope you of all people would understand this.
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By the way, in case you misunderstand my purpose, I have no doubt in my mind that the relationship will proceed according to plan. I don't see this at all getting in the way.
Yet while I'm waiting, neither do I see the harm in examining the situation and attempting to arrive at a satisfactory resolution, which would include either resolving the problem in such a way that it is logical, or, seeing the errors of my ways, or simply biting the bullet, etc.
Just do it, man. She will love you for it. I am in the same camp you are in. I hate a lot of this traditional garbage because of the historical, cultural, and dare I say, religious connotations that are attached with them. But, if you get along and love her as much as you do, then just do it for her. You will feel awkward when you do it. You will feel bad or feel like your marriage is not equal, or that it is somehow "cheapened". But, you know what? After a week or two of being married, you probably won't even be concerned about having to ask her father for her hand in marriage or that you had to buy her this big, nice, fat diamond ring that will cost you an entire paycheck. It will be worth it. :):):)
So, just do it!!!
EDIT:
Anyway, I do have a problem with the concept of the bride being "given away", as I've already discussed we have agreed to an equal relationship, why should we continue to pretend that she is some quasi-property of mine when she isn't and won't be?
I completely agree with this, however. A friend of mine got married earlier this year. And do you know what the preacher said during the wedding ceremony? "The wife must be submissive to the husband and do as he says."
Yeah... he said that. I wanted to walk up and punch that guy right in the face. And the funny thing is, my friend was laughing about it afterward and making fun of her. She wanted something and he was like, "No. You can't have that. You are mine now, remember? You must listen to me at all times." LOL!!
Just do it, man. She will love you for it. I am in the same camp you are in. I hate a lot of this traditional garbage because of the historical, cultural, and dare I say, religious connotations that are attached with them. But, if you get along and love her as much as you do, then just do it for her. You will feel awkward when you do it. You will feel bad or feel like your marriage is not equal, or that it is somehow "cheapened". But, you know what? After a week or two of being married, you probably won't even be concerned about having to ask her father for her hand in marriage or that you had to buy her this big, nice, fat diamond ring that will cost you an entire paycheck. It will be worth it. :):):)
So, just do it!!!
Oh, it's a year off or so, but I probably will. Just a blabbermouth is all, so I like to talk about things like this.
the traditions are kept up because they don't hurt anyone and are only bothersome if you think of their historical baggage.
Quote from necrogenesis »
You know how logically dissecting a joke takes all the funniness out of it? Relationships are the same way. Trying to logically dissect one takes all the romance out of it.
Absolutely agreed on both counts.
Look, some things just don't work in a logical way. You can dissect the logical aspects of such a union all you want, but in the end of the day, those traditions are part of a social context most of us (and obviously your girlfriend) were brought up into. Most women fantasize about traditional wedding parties, about wearing a gown, about rings. It's all part of the romantic aura that envelops such moments in our culture.
Bottom line is, you can argue logically and nitpick all you want - your wedding will still be incomplete to her without the traditional customs she dreamed of living through.
Just let go of the logical debater attitude for once, put on a romantic one, and do it.
Your arguments make perfect sense in the logical way that you present them, however, I don't believe that they can be used in an argument about love. People do lots of stupid and crazy things in the name of love, and buying a gaudy diamond ring probably ranks as one of them. I remember when I bought my wife's engagement ring, I was like "well there goes several future boxes of MTG cards." But in the end, I didn't really care.
Part of the problem with your argument is that you only present it economically. What happens if she wants something that does not have an economical value? Say, hypothetically, that you are a poet. And she muses "I wish would you write a poem about me." Would you respond "I will only write you a poem if you do something for me in return" Would you require that she reciprocate? But in what way? She is (hypothetically) terrible at writing poetry. How would you measure her reciprocating action?
If you have love, money should mean little to you beyond surviving. I'll end with a quote I found while preparing my wife's 1st anniversary gift.
"True love begins when nothing is looked for in return."
- St. Antoine de Saint-Exupery
The engagement ring is a result of a relatively recent (within the last century) marketing campaign. The diamond companies have done good work.
Sentiment covered the "permission" quite well in post #3.
Honestly, your overthinking things.
Buy the future wife an engagement ring becuase it's something that would make her happy. While equality in marriage is valuable, if your going to try and tally everything, your going to be miserable (and this is coming from an accountant).
As for the asking permission, sure its hypocritical. But your not really asking anything. It's a token gesture in many ways. But its a token gesture that should broker good will and make your future a happier pleasant one. Isn't that worth doing?
You need to man up. Although the wedding is about both of you committing your lives to each other and proclaiming your eternal love, an engagement ring and other traditional elements are an important part of getting married (unless both parties agree they are not). It sounds like these things are very important to your fiance. This isn't a compromise... instead, look at as making the engagement and wedding day the most beautiful experience she has ever been a part of. Seeing her glow and smile as you dance your first dance as husband and wife should make it all worth while.
If an engagement ring isn't offered to your fiance, she'll have to explain to EVERYONE why she doesn't have one. This could lead to resentment, inferiority, doubt, anger, etc.
I also recommend that you look at a marriage as equal but not divided 50/50. It is a relationship of give and take not a treaty. She may take more here and you may take more there. It is never to be weighed or quantified, just understood. If you both respect each other it doesn't have to be split straight down the middle. Pool your money, but don't count what pennies each person gave. Hang out with friends, but don't count who spent time away from home more. This of course only works if both of you are not selfish. Being selfish adds a whole new dynamic and in my opinion makes a successful marriage more difficult.
In the end I think you should stop analyzing everything so much. Some things are traditions, just because they are. The meaning of asking for permission has evolved from the property issue of which you speak, to more of a social custom. Society is based in part around these customs, some far more significant then others.
Why do you buy an engagment ring? Because that is the way it is. Sometimes we need to take things at face value.
I hate the idea of doing things just because "that's the way they're always done." I get, though, that a wedding is much more of a huge deal to the woman, generally, than the man. I was cool with my wife spending $600 for a dress she'll only wear once, I went ahead and shelled out the cash for a ring worth 15 times what mine cost.
The one thing I really put my foot down on, though, was the omission of my parents' names from the wedding invitations. I guess it's "tradition" that the invitations are worded:
"Mr. So-and-so and Mrs. So-and-so invite you to the wedding of their daughter, Miss So-and-so to (me)."
I'm sure that started way back when when the bride's family was expected to pay for the wedding but since my wife and I were paying for pretty much the whole thing ourselves, I insisted that my parents were listed on there as well.
Another thing I wish I would have insisted on (though it's not related to tradition-borne sexism) was refraining from putting fine china on our registry. We have probably $500 worth of plates and gravy boats that we'll never, ever use sitting in boxes in the back of our closet.
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
I don't care if she is the most logical woman ever, when it comes down to the engagement and wedding, she will be illogical. After it's all over, she will go back to being sane and logical and all that.
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I liek Phelddagrifs.
Official Knitter of the Crafters.
Currently knitting: It's a surprise!
Love =/= A greeting card you bought at walmart.
Love =/= A gemstone and a little lump of gold.
Anyway, the tradition really is sexist, literally speaking.
But it's not a huge deal either. She, as an individual person, is going to love it to death. And it's not an oppressive sexisim, so, to me, it's not a big deal.
However, it is your wedding too, and it should be pleasing and memorable to you as well.
Yes, traditionally you had to ask permission from the bride's parents since you are 'taking her' from her family to yours. However, another tradition that everyone seems to ignore these days is the dowry! Basically, if you are really bent on making things traditional, insist that her parents give you a dowry, which was originally intended to be some compensation for all of the future expenses that you will incur for your new wife that the father no longer has to pay. Maybe you getting the dowry here would make you feel like things are more equal again between you and your bride, since she won't be getting one from your parents.
Yes, traditionally you had to ask permission from the bride's parents since you are 'taking her' from her family to yours. However, another tradition that everyone seems to ignore these days is the dowry! Basically, if you are really bent on making things traditional, insist that her parents give you a dowry, which was originally intended to be some compensation for all of the future expenses that you will incur for your new wife that the father no longer has to pay. Maybe you getting the dowry here would make you feel like things are more equal again between you and your bride, since she won't be getting one from your parents.
I'm so bad at actually detecting sarcasm on the internet, but, please, please, don't actually do this.
I'm also not sure sexism is the right word here. Maybe I'm approaching this from an unrealistic legal definition, but I don't see any altered expectations of your capabilities based on your sex. Yes, while you are customarily required to purchase the ring, this has nothing to do with your abilities as a man -- it's just custom at this point. The origins, on the other hand, are most certaily sexist. Even the engagement ring itself was used to signify the man had invested in his bride and she was now his chattel.
I agree with former posters, this is a terrible place to make a stand. Buy the ring, get married, live happily ever after.
I have to admit, I totally sympathize with everything you say. However this is one tradition you really can't beat unless your fiancee is even more behind it than you. However I have to echo a few other people and say to really try and persuade her against a diamond. DeBeers really is the closest real-world analogue to Lexcorp we have, and the Kimberley Process is a failure even according to the person who founded it. The fact that the diamond trade is so exploitative and abusive of workers should be able to convince a fair-minded person to slightly modify that tradition.
Fine, if you want to boil it all to logic. She is a woman. Despite your lofty little idealization, she is NOT your equal no matter how much you want her to.
She is at most half as strong as you. She has to cope with things like menstrual cycles, (maybe) pregnancy, eventually menopause, and the fact that, due to aging, people will stop perceiving her as attractive much earlier in life than they will with you. While you may not, society has a very different set of expectations from her, which are much more constraining.
And you can't do anything about all that. Women will always be different from men. Even having equal social standing to you doesn't do anything about most things I listed. Stop being such a reductionist and accept your "logic" is flawed (and it was a dumb idea to start with this in the first place). Buy her the goddamn ring and get on with your relationship as a non-robotic being.
Wow, I'm just floored that almost everyone here (in the DEBATE forum!) is saying "sure, you're right that this thing doesn't make sense and is even kind of messed up, but stop thinking so hard and do it anyway."
WHAT?
Most of what the OP brought up, and others after him, sums up why I hate marraige. Why should you and your partner (who, you, hopefully, see as an equal, even if they are at most half as strong as you) demean each other (which I would argue, compromises your love and respect for each other) for the sake of an inarguablily sexist tradition?
Why should you go over her head to ask the parents of a grown adult if she can marry you? Why should she dehumanize herself by sacrificing part of her identity (her last name) for yours? Why should you be expected to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for a gift that symbolizes your ownership over someone else?
I'll admit, I probably have more problems with the idea of marriage than the average poster, but I think the OP is well within his right to ask these questions to his partner and if this is a issue for him (and I'm right with him there) he def should stand up for his beliefs. If she refuses to listen to your financial concerns at this point, it's a bad sign for things to come.
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Listen to my M:tG flavor Podcast: Story Circle! (Newest episode is all about Innistrad previews.)
Umm if it makes you feel better once you're married since the money becomes equally both of yours and all assets are shared etc etc you technically are splitting the costs of said ring. And no diamonds aren't the most inflated stone. I'm not sure what is, but I know the emerald my wife wanted costed more than a diamond of equal size. And yeah she'll love her ring forever and ever unless it's too small in which case in 15-20 yrs you'll have to buy a replacement/make it bigger. That's the only good side to the emerald I got for mine no one else has one so size issues are irrelevant.
Wow, I'm just floored that almost everyone here (in the DEBATE forum!) is saying "sure, you're right that this thing doesn't make sense and is even kind of messed up, but stop thinking so hard and do it anyway."
WHAT?
Most of what the OP brought up, and others after him, sums up why I hate marraige. Why should you and your partner (who, you, hopefully, see as an equal, even if they are at most half as strong as you) demean each other (which I would argue, compromises your love and respect for each other) for the sake of an inarguablily sexist tradition?
Why should you go over her head to ask the parents of a grown adult if she can marry you? Why should she dehumanize herself by sacrificing part of her identity (her last name) for yours? Why should you be expected to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for a gift that symbolizes your ownership over someone else?
I'll admit, I probably have more problems with the idea of marriage than the average poster, but I think the OP is well within his right to ask these questions to his partner and if this is a issue for him (and I'm right with him there) he def should stand up for his beliefs. If she refuses to listen to your financial concerns at this point, it's a bad sign for things to come.
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You are 100% right, that said if you want to marry her you have two options.
1) Ignore logic.
2) Your screwed.
No matter how logical someone is things that they have spent thier life thinking about will not go away in a reasonable time frame unless they really disliked them beforehand. If she liked this and wanted this shes not going to be happy unless you give it to her or spend 5+ years trying to ease her off of it. (religion as an example)
3) Your logic is somewhat flawed as the moment the wedding is compleate she paid for half the stuff because you united costs by getting married.
My girlfriend and I have been together for more than two years and at our age we are beginning to discuss the idea of a life together. We've come to the conclusion that it would approximate our current relationship (except that we'd live together and have our finances linked, of course), but overall it would be the way it is now: while recognizing that we are naturally different due not only to gender but to personality and temperament, we accord equal deference to the hopes, dreams, desires, responsibilities and decision making of the other party.
We both expect to work and earn roughly similar amounts of income, so bills will be split 50/50. My career affords me more time off from work, so care of the household chores and children (if we have any) will be divided more like 60/40 with me taking slightly more responsibility.
Where we began to differ was on everything to do with the wedding. We decided that she would get:
1) A diamond engagement ring.
2) Me to ask for the "blessing" of her parents before an engagement.
Growing up I never had a problem with either of these concepts, and indeed I can be quite a "softie" at times. Additionally, I've always been the type to be overly polite and deferent to manners and such. But it was when I asked a few questions that I began to have a problem.
My girlfriend informed me that the reason the engagement ring was important to her was that it is a "custom, a sign of dedication and commitment to our love", I asked:
"That's my sign. What's yours?"
"The woman doesn't give an engagement ring."
"Well, doesn't that seem kinda unfair? My love is not the only love involved in this relationship, is it? If you want me to show commitment, shouldn't you?"
"You're getting the betrothal."
"Well, if I buy the more expensive engagement ring, will you buy the wedding bands?"
"The way it usually works is that you buy mine and I'll buy yours"
"But wouldn't it be fair to divide it that way since we're in an equal relationship, and we earn equal incomes?"
"That's not the way it works, though... it is romantic."
...and so it continued. At this point, I don't get it. It's not the money that is an issue for me, I swear to you. I would figure out a way to buy the moon itself if she wanted it, that's how much I love her. It's more a matter of principle though. I don't get why we're equal in all these respects but then I'm expected to shell out mega bucks for this at no cost to her...
On to #2.
I'm expected to ask for the bride's parents permission, I'm told, because I'm "joining her family". Wouldn't she be joining mine as well? So shouldn't she have to ask my parents likewise post facto?
I know she loves her parents, and as someone who loves her, I respect her parents because of this. At the same time, I find the thought of the whole process humiliating and demeaning. Her parents and I get along very well so I can almost guarantee that her parents would be thrilled to bless it if I asked her to marry me. With that said, for me this idea is somehow more anxiety inducing than the idea of a proposal itself. Here I have to get on bended knee not only for her, but her parents as well?
Actually, IMO, it should be kinda weird to her anyway, since this process is rooted in the idea that the bride is property of the groom. She certainly isn't going to be my property, so why should I have to act like it in this singular situation?
Well, we're still working it out and we're a long way from resolution on these issues.
How do you all feel?
I hope I didn't get everything wrong.
I like 4/4s for 7.
I mean, seriously? This is where you're choosing to make your stand?
Relationships aren't about politics, ljoss. It's about cooperation. It's about recognizing that you're united and becoming a part of something more than you two, which is an "us", a family, and understanding that this family is something that will define you and that you will need to give yourself to.
What principle?
I honestly don't understand this concept. Could you explain to me why buying a ring is such a problem?
Because she's leaving her family to become the matriarch of yours. It's the same reason why women change their last names, and why the father of the bride gives her away.
Again, I ask: why? It is, if nothing else, a show of respect to her family. I fail to see why this is the cause of so much concern.
Honest reaction?
The only way anyone could possibly "see where you're coming from" is if they look at this purely in terms of theory. By purely in terms of theory, I mean totally removing themselves from reality and just looking at it in terms of "X should equal Y, X does not equal Y, Error does not compute". In other words, one could theoretically agree with you on a basic level, but the basic level comes from removing everything else and looking at it from purely one dimension.
This is easy to do for us, because we're not engaged to this woman, she is simply a concept, and you're just a disembodied voice on the internet. We are as completely detached from the situation as is possible. It is easy for us to treat this like a math problem because we're not emotionally involved in this in any way.
However, you ARE in a relationship with this woman, and you ARE attempting to build a family with her. The thing is, right now, it seems like your making a statement of equality is more important than giving your fiancee the wedding she wants. You may wish to think about this. Further, you may wish to consider whether an unwillingness to compromise and an unwillingness to do an unequal share of work are the best feet to put forward in this situation.
Which is a really tactful way of saying, "Stop being a baby, grow up, and do it."
Honestly, you have an eternity of happiness waiting for you with this woman, and all you need to do is buy her a diamond and talk to her family, neither of which are unreasonable things to do. Give her a sign of your unending love when you propose, and talk to her family to show you your respect for them and include them in your life together when she leaves her family and enter yours. You cannot possibly tell me this is too great a price to pay.
It's like how some churches do a communion ceremony even though they do not doctrinally believe in transubstantiation.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Should I recognize that or both of us?
The principle of equity that we have agreed upon, whereby since we have equal incomes, we've agreed to split bills equally. When it comes to getting her something she wants, I don't like the idea that I'm obligated to foot the entire bill. The problem is not at all with the idea itself but with the idea that it is a non-assumed obligation to pay a tremendous sum where there is no reciprocity.
It's the fact that we have equal incomes and have agreed to an equal relationship, therefore, I do not think I should be obliged to pay the entire sum to get her an item she wants and yet have no reciprocity.
A simple alleviation of this problem would be for her to offer to reciprocate in some way, even an offer of reciprocity would suffice for me (that I may then turn down).
So basically the idea is that in the context of a purportedly equal relationship, I am required to take on a greater responsibility for, to be honest, no apparent reason at all. (Other than to show it off to friends)
Well, the woman changing her last name is a problem to me but I guess for reasons of parsimony I don't mind it that much. I remember all those kids in school with the hyphenated last names, that is fine but it gets ridiculous. I mean, what happens when they get married then? Do they triple hyphenate?
Anyway, I do have a problem with the concept of the bride being "given away", as I've already discussed we have agreed to an equal relationship, why should we continue to pretend that she is some quasi-property of mine when she isn't and won't be?
I think I explained why, because it is hypocritical. If the groom requires the blessing of the bride's family, shouldn't the bride then require the blessing of the groom's family? Again, in the context of an equal relationship.
Logic is required in order for life itself to function. Logic is required just for us to have this conversation. Logic is the most necessary component of reality, removing logic from reality is removing reality from reality. So yes, I'm asking you to look at reality, not culture.
HR, you may be one of the most intelligent people that I've ever conversed with, so I'm going to trust that you will be open to examining the logic of the statement you just made. So grant me the permission to offer a few observations on it?
I am being chided because I have not placed her wants for X above my wants for Y. She too has not placed my wants for Y above her wants for X. Therefore, according to this logic, she too must be chided.
When the entire premise of a relationship is that of equality then I expect to do an equal amount of work when possible, yes.
No offense, but I get the sense that is just a wordy way of saying "don't think".
I prefer to examine the principles I hold whenever possible and attempt to ascertain whether certain actions would live up to them or not. I would hope you of all people would understand this.
_____________________________________________________________
By the way, in case you misunderstand my purpose, I have no doubt in my mind that the relationship will proceed according to plan. I don't see this at all getting in the way.
Yet while I'm waiting, neither do I see the harm in examining the situation and attempting to arrive at a satisfactory resolution, which would include either resolving the problem in such a way that it is logical, or, seeing the errors of my ways, or simply biting the bullet, etc.
So, just do it!!!
EDIT:
I completely agree with this, however. A friend of mine got married earlier this year. And do you know what the preacher said during the wedding ceremony? "The wife must be submissive to the husband and do as he says."
Yeah... he said that. I wanted to walk up and punch that guy right in the face. And the funny thing is, my friend was laughing about it afterward and making fun of her. She wanted something and he was like, "No. You can't have that. You are mine now, remember? You must listen to me at all times." LOL!!
Oh, it's a year off or so, but I probably will. Just a blabbermouth is all, so I like to talk about things like this.
Absolutely agreed on both counts.
Look, some things just don't work in a logical way. You can dissect the logical aspects of such a union all you want, but in the end of the day, those traditions are part of a social context most of us (and obviously your girlfriend) were brought up into. Most women fantasize about traditional wedding parties, about wearing a gown, about rings. It's all part of the romantic aura that envelops such moments in our culture.
Bottom line is, you can argue logically and nitpick all you want - your wedding will still be incomplete to her without the traditional customs she dreamed of living through.
Just let go of the logical debater attitude for once, put on a romantic one, and do it.
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Love =/= Logical
Your arguments make perfect sense in the logical way that you present them, however, I don't believe that they can be used in an argument about love. People do lots of stupid and crazy things in the name of love, and buying a gaudy diamond ring probably ranks as one of them. I remember when I bought my wife's engagement ring, I was like "well there goes several future boxes of MTG cards." But in the end, I didn't really care.
Part of the problem with your argument is that you only present it economically. What happens if she wants something that does not have an economical value? Say, hypothetically, that you are a poet. And she muses "I wish would you write a poem about me." Would you respond "I will only write you a poem if you do something for me in return" Would you require that she reciprocate? But in what way? She is (hypothetically) terrible at writing poetry. How would you measure her reciprocating action?
If you have love, money should mean little to you beyond surviving. I'll end with a quote I found while preparing my wife's 1st anniversary gift.
"True love begins when nothing is looked for in return."
- St. Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Sentiment covered the "permission" quite well in post #3.
Honestly, your overthinking things.
Buy the future wife an engagement ring becuase it's something that would make her happy. While equality in marriage is valuable, if your going to try and tally everything, your going to be miserable (and this is coming from an accountant).
As for the asking permission, sure its hypocritical. But your not really asking anything. It's a token gesture in many ways. But its a token gesture that should broker good will and make your future a happier pleasant one. Isn't that worth doing?
If an engagement ring isn't offered to your fiance, she'll have to explain to EVERYONE why she doesn't have one. This could lead to resentment, inferiority, doubt, anger, etc.
I also recommend that you look at a marriage as equal but not divided 50/50. It is a relationship of give and take not a treaty. She may take more here and you may take more there. It is never to be weighed or quantified, just understood. If you both respect each other it doesn't have to be split straight down the middle. Pool your money, but don't count what pennies each person gave. Hang out with friends, but don't count who spent time away from home more. This of course only works if both of you are not selfish. Being selfish adds a whole new dynamic and in my opinion makes a successful marriage more difficult.
Why do you buy an engagment ring? Because that is the way it is. Sometimes we need to take things at face value.
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The one thing I really put my foot down on, though, was the omission of my parents' names from the wedding invitations. I guess it's "tradition" that the invitations are worded:
"Mr. So-and-so and Mrs. So-and-so invite you to the wedding of their daughter, Miss So-and-so to (me)."
I'm sure that started way back when when the bride's family was expected to pay for the wedding but since my wife and I were paying for pretty much the whole thing ourselves, I insisted that my parents were listed on there as well.
Another thing I wish I would have insisted on (though it's not related to tradition-borne sexism) was refraining from putting fine china on our registry. We have probably $500 worth of plates and gravy boats that we'll never, ever use sitting in boxes in the back of our closet.
Female + Wedding/Engagement = Illogical
I don't care if she is the most logical woman ever, when it comes down to the engagement and wedding, she will be illogical. After it's all over, she will go back to being sane and logical and all that.
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Love =/= A greeting card you bought at walmart.
Love =/= A gemstone and a little lump of gold.
Anyway, the tradition really is sexist, literally speaking.
But it's not a huge deal either. She, as an individual person, is going to love it to death. And it's not an oppressive sexisim, so, to me, it's not a big deal.
However, it is your wedding too, and it should be pleasing and memorable to you as well.
Yes, traditionally you had to ask permission from the bride's parents since you are 'taking her' from her family to yours. However, another tradition that everyone seems to ignore these days is the dowry! Basically, if you are really bent on making things traditional, insist that her parents give you a dowry, which was originally intended to be some compensation for all of the future expenses that you will incur for your new wife that the father no longer has to pay. Maybe you getting the dowry here would make you feel like things are more equal again between you and your bride, since she won't be getting one from your parents.
I'm so bad at actually detecting sarcasm on the internet, but, please, please, don't actually do this.
I'm also not sure sexism is the right word here. Maybe I'm approaching this from an unrealistic legal definition, but I don't see any altered expectations of your capabilities based on your sex. Yes, while you are customarily required to purchase the ring, this has nothing to do with your abilities as a man -- it's just custom at this point. The origins, on the other hand, are most certaily sexist. Even the engagement ring itself was used to signify the man had invested in his bride and she was now his chattel.
I agree with former posters, this is a terrible place to make a stand. Buy the ring, get married, live happily ever after.
She is at most half as strong as you. She has to cope with things like menstrual cycles, (maybe) pregnancy, eventually menopause, and the fact that, due to aging, people will stop perceiving her as attractive much earlier in life than they will with you. While you may not, society has a very different set of expectations from her, which are much more constraining.
And you can't do anything about all that. Women will always be different from men. Even having equal social standing to you doesn't do anything about most things I listed. Stop being such a reductionist and accept your "logic" is flawed (and it was a dumb idea to start with this in the first place). Buy her the goddamn ring and get on with your relationship as a non-robotic being.
WHAT?
Most of what the OP brought up, and others after him, sums up why I hate marraige. Why should you and your partner (who, you, hopefully, see as an equal, even if they are at most half as strong as you) demean each other (which I would argue, compromises your love and respect for each other) for the sake of an inarguablily sexist tradition?
Why should you go over her head to ask the parents of a grown adult if she can marry you? Why should she dehumanize herself by sacrificing part of her identity (her last name) for yours? Why should you be expected to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for a gift that symbolizes your ownership over someone else?
I'll admit, I probably have more problems with the idea of marriage than the average poster, but I think the OP is well within his right to ask these questions to his partner and if this is a issue for him (and I'm right with him there) he def should stand up for his beliefs. If she refuses to listen to your financial concerns at this point, it's a bad sign for things to come.
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You are 100% right, that said if you want to marry her you have two options.
1) Ignore logic.
2) Your screwed.
No matter how logical someone is things that they have spent thier life thinking about will not go away in a reasonable time frame unless they really disliked them beforehand. If she liked this and wanted this shes not going to be happy unless you give it to her or spend 5+ years trying to ease her off of it. (religion as an example)
3) Your logic is somewhat flawed as the moment the wedding is compleate she paid for half the stuff because you united costs by getting married.
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Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry: