EDIT: I was stupid and probably should have put this in entertainment. Can someone move this for me?
I have been agonizing over a play I made in a poker tournament last night, and I was wondering if anyone could offer opinions as to whether or not I made the right call. Here's the setup: I'm at the final table of a 50+ man Texas Hold 'Em tournament after playing for over four hours, and have one of the smallest chip stacks of the remaining players at about $3.5K. Chip leader has something over $10K. blinds are $200-$400. I am in the dealer position, with pocket cards of Ace and 10 of spades.
One guy after the big blind calls the blinds, and I limp in. The small blind folds and the big blind checks. The flop is Ace, 10, 7 all of diamonds. This puts me with two pair and no chance at the flush. The two other people in the pot both check around after the flop. After having watched their play for a long time up to this point, I read them as not having the pocket flush. I hold two pair, and if an Ace or a 10 comes out on the turn or the river I now have a full house which beats the flush anyway, and if no more diamonds come out, I should have the win.
I bet $1K. The guy in big blind position raises me to all in (only about $2k more). He has several thousand more chips than me, and is in the position to be taking risks. Even if he has the pocket flush I still have the full house draw. Either way, it's late and I want to either get back in the thick of the game or head home. I call.
He turns over King of Diamonds, 6 of clubs. The turn card is the Jack of hearts, the River is the 2 of diamonds. I bust.
I still think for the position I was in, it wasn't a bad call. I correctly read that he didn't have the pocket flush, and I had good odds going into the river card. What do you thing?
it was the right call plain and simple...you just got sucked out on
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Originally Posted by Arborea
MTG Salvation: where you show people a reasonable card, and they complain it isn't good. Then you show them a good card, and they complain it isn't broke
You pretty much forced yourself to call in that position.
Let's see...you had 6 outs and he had 8. You don't know that but you should assume that he could hit the flush on the turn or the river. This should factor into your decision, but you did make a bad pot odds calculation. I calculated that you were betting 2000 to win ~4400. 6/50 < 20/44, much less. Of course, pot odds are not everything and certainly in your position you probably need to double up or go home. Statistically it was a bad play, and I would probably find myself almost calling the same play but folding. When it comes down to winning or losing, I try to eliminate luck as much as possible. You were definitely not guaranteed to win that pot even with both high pairs and you should have seen that a flush draw was pretty likely.
I think the biggest mistake was limping in. I'm really not a fan of limping in especially if you are in dealer position with good stuff (A10 suited).
See, if you would have raised pre-flop, the opponent who made you bust would have been going in with a disadvantage...you had a significantly better hand, also probably eliminating all other opponents from that pot. You probably would have even managed to eat the blinds. Then, going all-in after the flop would be like a continuation bet and perhaps caused him to fold (pot odds for him were at about a 1:2 disadvantage. although certainly your judging of players helps you make calls here: is he desperate? etc.)
This is exactly right. That was your biggest mistake. If your under chipped and get a hand like that in that position, you should have moved all in from the start.
This is exactly right. That was your biggest mistake. If your under chipped and get a hand like that in that position, you should have moved all in from the start.
My sentiments exactly. With one of the smallest stacks this late in the tournament, ATs should be pretty much an automatic all-in pre-flop.
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I agree with the last few posters. Playing the hand wasn't the mistake; you had an awesome one and were just lucksacked out of it. But agressive betting could have lead to better results.
Regardless, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. It sounds like you played very well.
I agree with the posts above me. Though I dont know if it's just the people I playi with and coincidently thats what happened but my first thought when reading your post wast I bet his chasing a flush. I didnt think he had one I donno why thats what came to mind.
Of course the problem was you limped in and if it was me after limping in I would have made a bigger raise and still lost. Pretty much unfortunately for you he was chasing a flush with K diamond so in his mind if he hit he wins and the only way for you to win would be to ht a full house. his chances of a flush is significantly higher than your fullhouse.
From the position you had yourself in, you made the correct call, but when you flop 2 pair, (an Ace at that), you should've raised intially. Don't limp in like that, especially when you're the small stack and can be bullied by everyone at the table.
You had ace 10 suited in dealer position, one limper and less than 10 big blinds in front of you. Thats an all in move at that point.
Since you didn't do that, after everyone checked you should have moved all in rather than only betting 1,000. This would have forced the K flusher into a debate with himself. Since you bet small it appears that you are weak and wanting to take it down there. Raising someone all in holding the second nut flush draw is the right move for him since he can either push you off the hand or, if you call, he still has a good shot at beating whatever you're holding. The only card he would have feared you having was the ace of diamonds. If you would have pushed all in on the flop he would have to think you either have to think about you having that ace of diamonds and at that point in a tourney it's reasonably likely he would have folded. It's better to make your opponents make tough decisions then it is to put yourself into a must call situation if they raise.
Overall you didn't play the hand badly. Just not optimally. You really didn't have a choice in that situation. Congrats on the final table spot though.
This is exactly right. That was your biggest mistake. If your under chipped and get a hand like that in that position, you should have moved all in from the start.
Agree. A10 suited when ur short stacked and last to act with only 1 caller in so far is a great position to go all in preflop. If you simply raise you are essentially pot commited regardless of what the flop shows. If you limp you open yourself up having some one who had a worse starting hand than you come out on top after the flop.
The bigblind could have had anything, the small blind is likely to call and could have anything as well, and the guy who already called could be uber slow playing something big in order to catch one of the smaller stacks or just wants to see what the flop will give his hand.
By limping you essentially NEEDED to see A-something or the flush on the flop to really have a solid hold on the hand because of the other variables out there. Unfortunately you saw A-10, which greatly improved your hand but also gave others an out through the flush draw. If you had raised all-in before the flop you would have likely not even seen the flop (unlikely the guy with the K-5 o/s would have called unless his chip stack was insanely higher) and you would have been able to pick a few blinds up to continue a few more circulations at least.
It might have been right to slow roll it. See what they do next round, and then bet. It's not wrong to make them pay to play since if they had 1 diamond, they might want to play it out... however you should have went all in threatening with the flush. Now, maybe they would think you're bluffing and call you, or maybe they'd be scared and run away. I just don't see why you would put a third of your chips in with a hand that's worth all of your chips (obviously I'm saying that because you were on the short stack and not able to wait it out for a better hand).
Cynical is correct. Especially considering that one person had already limped, you definitely should have been raising with that hand on the button. But with your chip stack, the only viable raise is the shove, which definitely would have gotten you the hand.
Once the flop comes, you're not going to get that guy off of it. He has the nut flush draw, and significantly more chips than you. And it's the final table. He simply has to take the risk that he did(you're only a 70/30 favorite anyway). You just got unlucky at the end...such is poker.
Something else, also. You said that you 'didn't put either of them on the flush'. This doesn't really make sense, honestly. If the SB or BB has the flush there, they're pretty obviously not going to bet it.
Limping pf is bad, but shoving is bad too. 3500 is too much to be shoving into a 1000 pot with 3 other players still in the hand. Especially given that the SB is nitty enough to fold in the SB getting 7-1. If someone calls your shove, you can pretty much guarantee you're either getting the bad end of 70-30 or worse, or you're flipping a coin. You should raise to ~1100 and shove on any non-dangerous flop.
Also, you will probably get better advice if you ask on a poker forum like 2+2 rather than a magic forum.
ATs doesn't see too many non-dangerous flops... You are raising up to 1100 into a pot with... 1000 already. 700 to call into a pot with 2100; you're really not pushing anyone off.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
Cynical is correct. Especially considering that one person had already limped, you definitely should have been raising with that hand on the button. But with your chip stack, the only viable raise is the shove, which definitely would have gotten you the hand.
Once the flop comes, you're not going to get that guy off of it. He has the nut flush draw, and significantly more chips than you. And it's the final table. He simply has to take the risk that he did(you're only a 70/30 favorite anyway). You just got unlucky at the end...such is poker.
Something else, also. You said that you 'didn't put either of them on the flush'. This doesn't really make sense, honestly. If the SB or BB has the flush there, they're pretty obviously not going to bet it.
QFT.
On the button with AT and ~7 BB left, shove, especially if there are limpers in before you. That would've either gotten rid of the K6 and left you with no opportunity to misplay the flop vs a 1 card flush draw or picked up the blinds and kept you alive. Against decent opponents, you probably would be behind preflop if a shove gets called in this spot, but after that flop, the only hand that could conceivably limp, call your all-in raise, and be ahead of you here is 77.
Also, your 1k bet on the flop into a pot of more than 1k probably led him to put you on either a small pocket pair or a steal attempt. If you flop this kind of hand and are heads-up as a short stack against a huge stack, just shove so he has a chance to make a mistake by calling instead of getting his marginally okay resteal raise called.
You don't get better at poker (or Magic) by being results oriented. It's entirely possible to make every play perfectly and still lose through no fault of your own. All you can do is focus on making the best possible decision for each situation you find yourself in. The OP made mistakes in this hand, but there was no reasonable way he could avoid going broke after seeing that flop. He could've played it a little better, but he still would've either been crippled or busted if he'd played it correctly.
@OP: I don't mind you posting hands for critique occasionally, but you'll get better feedback if you don't post the final results of the hand until you've received some replies. Not knowing if you get drawn out on helps us concentrate on the decisions you made with the information you had at the time, without having opinions swayed by realizing that your opponent drew out on you with a draw no sane person would've been in the pot with.
I have been agonizing over a play I made in a poker tournament last night, and I was wondering if anyone could offer opinions as to whether or not I made the right call. Here's the setup: I'm at the final table of a 50+ man Texas Hold 'Em tournament after playing for over four hours, and have one of the smallest chip stacks of the remaining players at about $3.5K. Chip leader has something over $10K. blinds are $200-$400. I am in the dealer position, with pocket cards of Ace and 10 of spades.
One guy after the big blind calls the blinds, and I limp in. The small blind folds and the big blind checks. The flop is Ace, 10, 7 all of diamonds. This puts me with two pair and no chance at the flush. The two other people in the pot both check around after the flop. After having watched their play for a long time up to this point, I read them as not having the pocket flush. I hold two pair, and if an Ace or a 10 comes out on the turn or the river I now have a full house which beats the flush anyway, and if no more diamonds come out, I should have the win.
I bet $1K. The guy in big blind position raises me to all in (only about $2k more). He has several thousand more chips than me, and is in the position to be taking risks. Even if he has the pocket flush I still have the full house draw. Either way, it's late and I want to either get back in the thick of the game or head home. I call.
He turns over King of Diamonds, 6 of clubs. The turn card is the Jack of hearts, the River is the 2 of diamonds. I bust.
I still think for the position I was in, it wasn't a bad call. I correctly read that he didn't have the pocket flush, and I had good odds going into the river card. What do you thing?
MTG Salvation: where you show people a reasonable card, and they complain it isn't good. Then you show them a good card, and they complain it isn't broke
Let's see...you had 6 outs and he had 8. You don't know that but you should assume that he could hit the flush on the turn or the river. This should factor into your decision, but you did make a bad pot odds calculation. I calculated that you were betting 2000 to win ~4400. 6/50 < 20/44, much less. Of course, pot odds are not everything and certainly in your position you probably need to double up or go home. Statistically it was a bad play, and I would probably find myself almost calling the same play but folding. When it comes down to winning or losing, I try to eliminate luck as much as possible. You were definitely not guaranteed to win that pot even with both high pairs and you should have seen that a flush draw was pretty likely.
I think the biggest mistake was limping in. I'm really not a fan of limping in especially if you are in dealer position with good stuff (A10 suited).
See, if you would have raised pre-flop, the opponent who made you bust would have been going in with a disadvantage...you had a significantly better hand, also probably eliminating all other opponents from that pot. You probably would have even managed to eat the blinds. Then, going all-in after the flop would be like a continuation bet and perhaps caused him to fold (pot odds for him were at about a 1:2 disadvantage. although certainly your judging of players helps you make calls here: is he desperate? etc.)
This is exactly right. That was your biggest mistake. If your under chipped and get a hand like that in that position, you should have moved all in from the start.
My sentiments exactly. With one of the smallest stacks this late in the tournament, ATs should be pretty much an automatic all-in pre-flop.
Regardless, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. It sounds like you played very well.
Of course the problem was you limped in and if it was me after limping in I would have made a bigger raise and still lost. Pretty much unfortunately for you he was chasing a flush with K diamond so in his mind if he hit he wins and the only way for you to win would be to ht a full house. his chances of a flush is significantly higher than your fullhouse.
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You had ace 10 suited in dealer position, one limper and less than 10 big blinds in front of you. Thats an all in move at that point.
Since you didn't do that, after everyone checked you should have moved all in rather than only betting 1,000. This would have forced the K flusher into a debate with himself. Since you bet small it appears that you are weak and wanting to take it down there. Raising someone all in holding the second nut flush draw is the right move for him since he can either push you off the hand or, if you call, he still has a good shot at beating whatever you're holding. The only card he would have feared you having was the ace of diamonds. If you would have pushed all in on the flop he would have to think you either have to think about you having that ace of diamonds and at that point in a tourney it's reasonably likely he would have folded. It's better to make your opponents make tough decisions then it is to put yourself into a must call situation if they raise.
Overall you didn't play the hand badly. Just not optimally. You really didn't have a choice in that situation. Congrats on the final table spot though.
Fold or AI depending on how many people left, prize structure, etc.
Agree. A10 suited when ur short stacked and last to act with only 1 caller in so far is a great position to go all in preflop. If you simply raise you are essentially pot commited regardless of what the flop shows. If you limp you open yourself up having some one who had a worse starting hand than you come out on top after the flop.
The bigblind could have had anything, the small blind is likely to call and could have anything as well, and the guy who already called could be uber slow playing something big in order to catch one of the smaller stacks or just wants to see what the flop will give his hand.
By limping you essentially NEEDED to see A-something or the flush on the flop to really have a solid hold on the hand because of the other variables out there. Unfortunately you saw A-10, which greatly improved your hand but also gave others an out through the flush draw. If you had raised all-in before the flop you would have likely not even seen the flop (unlikely the guy with the K-5 o/s would have called unless his chip stack was insanely higher) and you would have been able to pick a few blinds up to continue a few more circulations at least.
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Once the flop comes, you're not going to get that guy off of it. He has the nut flush draw, and significantly more chips than you. And it's the final table. He simply has to take the risk that he did(you're only a 70/30 favorite anyway). You just got unlucky at the end...such is poker.
Something else, also. You said that you 'didn't put either of them on the flush'. This doesn't really make sense, honestly. If the SB or BB has the flush there, they're pretty obviously not going to bet it.
Also, you will probably get better advice if you ask on a poker forum like 2+2 rather than a magic forum.
Just shove or fold. I lean toward fold.
QFT.
On the button with AT and ~7 BB left, shove, especially if there are limpers in before you. That would've either gotten rid of the K6 and left you with no opportunity to misplay the flop vs a 1 card flush draw or picked up the blinds and kept you alive. Against decent opponents, you probably would be behind preflop if a shove gets called in this spot, but after that flop, the only hand that could conceivably limp, call your all-in raise, and be ahead of you here is 77.
Also, your 1k bet on the flop into a pot of more than 1k probably led him to put you on either a small pocket pair or a steal attempt. If you flop this kind of hand and are heads-up as a short stack against a huge stack, just shove so he has a chance to make a mistake by calling instead of getting his marginally okay resteal raise called.
You don't get better at poker (or Magic) by being results oriented. It's entirely possible to make every play perfectly and still lose through no fault of your own. All you can do is focus on making the best possible decision for each situation you find yourself in. The OP made mistakes in this hand, but there was no reasonable way he could avoid going broke after seeing that flop. He could've played it a little better, but he still would've either been crippled or busted if he'd played it correctly.
@OP: I don't mind you posting hands for critique occasionally, but you'll get better feedback if you don't post the final results of the hand until you've received some replies. Not knowing if you get drawn out on helps us concentrate on the decisions you made with the information you had at the time, without having opinions swayed by realizing that your opponent drew out on you with a draw no sane person would've been in the pot with.
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