Mamelon, no, seriously, that is a giant ass piece of text that could be seperated into at least 5 paragraphs. Its just easier to read that way.
Anyway, the girl has insecurity issues, bottom line. Not only is it unreasonable for her to try and change you, and DEMAND you to do this and that, it is even more unreasonable for her to ask you to think of her when whacking off. Porn is a fantasy land, and its sole purpose is for you to get a nut. Its not some fulfilling, enlightening thing, it is just there to help get a nut.
I also think it is dumb that just because she gives you head, she expects that to be enough. I have a girlfriend, and I get laid anywhere between once and three times per week, and I still beat off sometimes during the week. Just because I have sex with my girlfriend, doesn't mean that she is always there when the need comes along, and she shouldn't have to be, and thats when porn rears its head.
Basically, I don't buy into her infidelity argument. She is inseucre, thats it. Besides, well, I can't speak for everyone, but when I get laid, I don't go running off to look at porn. I have been satisfied. Do you run to porn after you and your girlfriend are through? I'm guessing no. Besides, in most cases, all of those infidelity cases she is talking about could be solved by those couples having more sex. Why would they need another outlet if they were getting enough? I know this isn't always the case, but it would solve way more cases than not.
Could this all be based on jealousy? I guess that was brought up before, but that's something on girls that i can't stand.
Damn, i used to have a girlfriend that went NUTS if i wasn't STARING at her when she was with me. In other words, if i looked somewhere else, she thought i was checking some other girl. Belive me, that is not healthy.
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"Someone once told me that it was impossible to pet a rabbid rat twice. You still can do it... With your remaining fingers..."
-Zigmat, Rat Overlord
Mamelon, no, seriously, that is a giant ass piece of text that could be seperated into at least 5 paragraphs. Its just easier to read that way.
That means you shouldn't read it?
It is broken into paragraphs, not to mention several line spaces. If you need more line spaces, I can do that, no problem, but I'd rather go without the snide remarks . . .
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
She is not interested in limiting you. Instead, she simply asks that you respect her, yourself, and your relationship. It sounds like she cares about you deeply, and that you care about her.
I do have one question. Should a person always give up something if his/her significant other asks it? For instance, if someone really likes coffee, and her boyfriend wants her to not drink coffee, should she give it up?
Now, I do realize that coffee and pornography are very different and have very different implications for a relationship. What I'm wondering is, are you advising he give it up just because she asked, or because it's pornography, specifically?
Quote from Harkius »
All that you really need to do is to think to yourself each time you want to look at it that you are doing something that would hurt her.
This could help, but chances pretty are good that it won't, at least not in the long term. Again, if there really is a problem, then that problem will probably end up either coming out in a worse way, or ocassionally "taking control," ending up in upsetting and impulsive episodes of indulgence.
What I'm proposing is really not very radical. I'm not sure how many therapists, for instance, are presenting this method for overcoming harmful habits, but I know a lot more are, and it is part of the acknowledgement that being mindful (aware and non-judgmental) of your personal problems and habits can be very positive in dealing with them.
Fore example, let's say I have a problem with eating too much sugar. Now, trying to make myself change ("I will not eat any sugar today, I will not eat any sugar today . . .") has never helped, nor has that tactic helped anyone I know with their problems. Once I started to look at the problem in a different way, "indulge" the habit in a careful and more healthful way (i.e. eat more honey and fruit and less refined sugar), it actually starts to help. I no longer have such a sweet tooth. I'm no longer fighting, so there's no more battle. Instead, I can try to gain more insight into why I eat so much sugar, and look for a way to cope with that.
I can say from experience that this attitude has helped me in the past. It's similar to the way that people trying to stop smoking often fail when they try to quit cold turkey, or the way that forcing yourself to eat less is often counterproductive when tyring to lose weight.
Quote from Harkius »
Ignore the people telling you that your girlfriend is bad.
I don't think you're girlfriend is bad, Zarkius, and even if I did, it really wouldn't be my place to say. Rather, I just said that if she weren't being understanding and patient about the issue, then that's not helping matters (by the way, I don't know if she's understanding or not, I'm making a conditional statement).
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
you're a teenager. naturally, you're gonna wanna release the tension by rubbing one out. it's the hormone thing.
as for the pornography, i have given up on that stuff. it all looks the same to me and it doesn't interest me anymore. i'm 20, btw. i believe it's something that you just grow out of.
did she ever "catch you in the act," so to speak? not going as far as seeing you masturbate, but find pics and videos in your room/on your PC? was it interfering with your relationship?
anyways...
if she has a problem with it, i believe you need to aknowlege her concern. it will be hard, very hard, to wean yourself off of porn if you were used to viewing that kind of material. and there's always your imagination...
I think he means that for some it's just a habit that no longer has much to do with sexual release - correct, Turbovolver?
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
So they just watch it because they've gotten used to watching it? If that's the case, that's a pretty lame habit. Forget I even asked.
Well, for some it's compulsive. That's what an addiction is really (which I'm sure you already knew). It's a behavior that is very hard, if not nearly impossible to control. The idea for this instance is that he's saying he doesn't look at porn just to aid in masturbation anymore - he does it as a compulsion (at least that's what I gather), and he's having trouble quitting.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
That is exactly the kind of sentiment that makes it harder for men like Zyrakris and Silent Prophet.
Not everyone deserves another person.
There isn't a "somebody for everybody."
And the kind of people who negatively limit their SO's behavior fall in that category.
It is also that kind of thinking that makes some of us women that have been deeply hurt by porn highly reluctant to speak out.
Being hurt by pornography is different from being constrictively Puritanical about it.
Why say anything when most people just think we are cold hearted *****es?
Oh, get over yourself.
I go to a relatively liberal college (big words, considering what the average college atmosphere is like), and I run into all kinds of people who hate pornography.
Some of them have very good points.
Others have bad points and a lot of heart.
Others still have nothing to offer other than vitriolic sentiment and a feeling of entitlement.
Well, for some it's compulsive. That's what an addiction is really (which I'm sure you already knew). It's a behavior that is very hard, if not nearly impossible to control. The idea for this instance is that he's saying he doesn't look at porn just to aid in masturbation anymore - he does it as a compulsion (at least that's what I gather), and he's having trouble quitting.
Having done some reading into sexual compulsion, addictions (both physical and psychological) and obsession, I was reminded of A) why I constantly skipped my psyche classes and B) why I dislike addiction being used as a justification for weakness (not specidically in this thread, just in general).
Personally, I fall in the camp that views sexual compulsion with a skeptical eye. As someone who doesn't have a degree in psychology, I'm obviously not equipped to say sexual addiction doesn't exist, but I do doubt it's a factor as often as it's offered as one.
Having done some reading into sexual compulsion, addictions (both physical and psychological) and obsession, I was reminded of A) why I constantly skipped my psyche classes and B) why I dislike addiction being used as a justification for weakness (not specidically in this thread, just in general).
Personally, I fall in the camp that views sexual compulsion with a skeptical eye. As someone who doesn't have a degree in psychology, I'm obviously not equipped to say sexual addiction doesn't exist, but I do doubt it's a factor as often as it's offered as one.
Oh, I know. I actually don't think that compulsive use of porn is the same as sexual addiction. It's just that any behavior that you have trouble stopping doing if you want to is basically a compulsion. I don't think using porn makes you an "addict."
I agree with you, MikeyG, that porn isn't "bad and sick." I also understand, say, SterlingAngel, very much.
I find a lot of different kinds of porn I have seen or encountered on websites in the past to be very disturbing. Especially gay male porn aimed at girls, lesbian porn aimed at boys, and "tranny" porn (i.e. "shemales").
*shudders*
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Oh, I know. I actually don't think that compulsive use of porn is the same as sexual addiction. It's just that any behavior that you have trouble stopping doing if you want to is basically a compulsion. I don't think using porn makes you an "addict."
According to my (admittedly minimalistic) research, sexual compulsion/addiction includes compulsive acts of any sexual behavior, including masturbation and viewing pornography. Though I, too, have a bit of an issue with lumping compulsive use of porn in with the rest.
Zyrakis - is this book she read called "Every Young Man's Battle"?
I've heard of it. From what I can recall from the infomercial, their points aren't actually very good, they're sophistric at best. I haven't read it though.
The writers claim that porn is "sinful" (which means different things to different people), but fail to actually identify what is problematic about it. For instance, one guy claimed that porn is "wrong" because it's "selfish and focused on just yourself." If that were really a problem, then soooo many things, including eating, sleeping, and any non-group-oriented hobby would be "wrong." Pleasure isn't bad. In fact, enjoyment is healthy.
I'm afraid I just see it as another example of people who feel something is wrong but can't actually explain why. Really, all moral concept comes from feeling, and not thought. I just wish people would realize that, it might make it easier to address moral issues.
I get so frustated with religion sometimes because of how difficult it seems to have made it for people to be really moral. Yes, I realize that's a generalization, and off topic. Sorry.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
I think he means that for some it's just a habit that no longer has much to do with sexual release - correct, Turbovolver?
Well it could be the convenience thing I described earlier... something along the lines of porn/masturbation feels good, I want to feel good so I will do it (it really is as simple as that, and this is one reason why it can be so addictive). This way when ever there is the opportunity, porn will come into things, because it is the best option at a wide range of given times.
There are also things like 'porn collections', where it becomes a hobby that is essentially sexual stamp collecting, but also potentially addictive.
Probably other examples as well, but these are ones that I'm familiar with.
I know I never ejaculate when looking at porn, but I still do look at it.
Quote from "mamelon" »
I find a lot of different kinds of porn I have seen or encountered on websites in the past to be very disturbing. Especially gay male porn aimed at girls, lesbian porn aimed at boys, and "tranny" porn (i.e. "shemales").
*shudders*
Considering how much I tend to agree with you, I'm curious as to why these forms of porn would be so disturbing. Do you care to enlighten me?
Well it could be the convenience thing I described earlier... something along the lines of porn/masturbation feels good, I want to feel good so I will do it (it really is as simple as that, and this is one reason why it can be so addictive). This way when ever there is the opportunity, porn will come into things, because it is the best option at a wide range of given times.
There are also things like 'porn collections', where it becomes a hobby that is essentially sexual stamp collecting, but also potentially addictive.
Probably other examples as well, but these are ones that I'm familiar with.
All very good points and good examples, once again, Turbovolver.
Quote from Turbovolver »
Considering how much I tend to agree with you, I'm curious as to why these forms of porn would be so disturbing. Do you care to enlighten me?
Part of it may be that I never seem to stumble upon the more "normal" (heterosexual) stuff on random websites, especially foreign ones. But I guess the real matter is they just hit too close to home. As a result, I tend to feel more understanding when people of any demographic say they are upset or disturbed by porn.
As for why those types specifically, part of it is I'm part of the LGBTI category, so . . . I'm not sure if that explains it or not, but I'm also not sure how much I want to get into personal matters on a debate thread.
I've felt like I was viewed as a sexual object before, and I guess it just brings it back up in my mind.
Edit: I guess this isn't technically a debate thread, but I hope you get what I mean, anyway.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Woah, where to start. Well I won't comment or reply to every little thing in this thread, as I have before. The reason why I've been gone is because.. well, I've got other responsibilities and other things to do.
Regarding everything from page 3 to page 6
To Harkius, Mamelon, and Turbovolver, thank you for understanding that this isn't a thread about breaking things off with my girlfriend because porn>her, nor is it about me feeling too controlled, but it's about something I'm struggling with and I was wondering if I was alone in this struggle.
To Mamelon and Turbovolver, you're both dead on on so many things. From the "Porn>Random TV" to the book name (it's actually "Every Man's Battle" but I'm not one to split hairs half the time), you guys are right, and I'll get quoting so I can point out specifically how.
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Getting the last word does not mean that you win the argument.
...I've heard of LBTG before, but I? Nothing's coming to mind.
I'm afraid that the topic has strayed a little from its original purpose. A huge number of contributors to this thread have assumed that the GF is making a demand that Zyrakis is suffering under. But as far as I can tell, any suffering involved in this situation is totally self-motivated. His GF was nothing more than a catalyst to show him that he really wanted, in and of himself, to change his habits. I admire you for that, Zyr.
I don't think it's fair to turn this into an argument about how unfair his GF is being, because that isn't really the issue, and almost smacks of an effort to undermine a perfectly good relationship just because they don't understand it. I say, as long as you really want to change, she's good for you, and you should stick with her for as long as she'll let you.
I won't try to argue that masturbation is wrong, since there's obviously no religious basis we share on which to found such an argument. And I certainly wouldn't argue that going to "3.9th base" is wrong. However, I will note that almost everyone who's responded to this thread is obviously sexually active, and has been for a long time, so I want to disabuse you of a notion that seems so far to have gone undisputed. The male libido is not an ever-flowing fountain of sexual urges. It only becomes that if one lets it. I, personally, have never had any kind of urgent "need" to have sex, because I have never had sex. The drive comes in the doing of the act, and it gets stronger the more it gets done, until you can't even conceive of going without it, or of anyone else doing so. Most of the people who have responded to this thread are clearly in that category, and so they believe it is unreasonable to expect someone to deny those urges at all.
Now, from your point of view, there may or may not be anything wrong with that, but it is nevertheless a fact. You can go without sex, or any form of sexual stimulation, be it pornography, oral sex, or merely masturbation (as I see you ranking them), and the only thing that will change is that you will eventually wonder why it was so difficult to imagine going without them. If you want to change your sexual habits, then the first thing to do is to convince yourself that this is true. You don't lose anything by not looking at porn. Your libido will not suddenly flow into other realms of exploration, unless you want it to. An orgasm will gradually become less and less of an end in itself, and you will wonder why it ever was.
I just wanted that to be clear. People may or may not call that an addiction. It certainly couldn't be called a physical depency; there are no withdrawal symptoms that I ever heard of. Calling it an addiction is likely to inspire sarcastic remarks from people who see nothing wrong with it. But there is no doubt that it is only among the people who don't want to stop that exist those who can't imagine stopping. Those who don't do it don't have much trouble.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
For some, just indulging in the habit in controlled levels (i.e. still eating sugar, just eating only a certain amount at a certain time, every day, as a treat) will work, will curb the appetite, and will make it much less of a problem. Usually, fighting the desire only to give into it reluctantly and guiltily in moments of "weakness" will strengthen the urge, make it a compulsion. Everything is unhealthy when it is compulsive. Believe it or not, just enjoying the habit, not feeling guilty about it, will remove some of the mystique, the magnetism, of the habit, and weaken the urge. Though it's true that sometimes more than this is necessary.
It's true that while she is understanding, I tried to suggest letting me watch it only a little bit. Keep in mind this whole argument has long been dead, and I don't really question it. Since I didn't really have much of an argument for it other than "it lets me down slowly", she didn't buy it and I had to just "cut it out". Then it came back to me, and I screwed up. I felt reluctant about it, but I gave in, with only guilt to look forward to in the end. As much as I want to enjoy it when I give in, I can't. It's difficult to, even when we have broken up and there are no reprecussions.
What do you mean by "more than this is necessary"?
Quote from mamelon »
As for your girlfriend:
It's not hard to understand why she wishes you to not look at pornography. It may be she's afraid that you will just start looking at her as you do (or as she thinks you do, depending) at the girls in the pictures. It may be that she feels like you aren't as attracted to her if you look at girls in sexy pictures. Or, yes, it could be just that she has been taught that porn is bad and nice boyfriends don't look at it. No matter, it is not that unusual, it's all valid. However, it would be better for the relationship if she could be understanding about it. Have you discussed it with her? If you are having trouble with her request, perhaps explain to her that porn is kind of a habit for you, and it's hard to just quit the habit so easily. If she isn't understanding about it, won't be patient about it, or demands you accomodate her, then that may be a larger issue in your relationship you two need to work out. However, you haven't complained about her request, so if she is being understanding, that's good.
Yeah, she is understanding, and she does recognize that it is a habit, it's just that I can't argue very well offline. Online, I can take my time with my statements and whatever, but offline it's a different deal. If I could successfully talk with her about letting me look at it a little bit, then.. it's a little late for that. Having been "off porn" for a while now, in her eyes it would be her letting me view more so I could get "addicted" or "corrupted" more- basically, it would be a step backward.
Quote from mamelon »
A lot of guys are very visual oriented, so they may find appeal in images (and a lot of girls tend to be linguistically oriented, so they may turn to erotic literature). So, in a way, it's quite natural.
. . .
Does that help?
Yes, it does help. But I've heard from that book that women are more stimulated by touch, while men by vision. I know, it's a BS book, and it's so preachy it makes me want to barf, but it seems that that could be correct. It's just that most pornography aimed toward women is linguistically based.
Quote from Turbovolver »
DOUBLE EDIT: I know your problem, original poster. Porn is a convenience to you. When you are away from your girlfriend or whatever, you could be watching TV, or you could be watching NAKED PEOPLE! It doesn't matter if you're horny or not, because naked people > random TV. I encounter similar things, and it is hard to break away from. However, because it's just a convenience, if the convenience is removed I suspect you'd be able to do it no problem. Like if you guys move in together, you will have much less chance to look, and the problem will decrease a lot.
Does that sound about right? Your comments about "looking when not horny" give me the above impression.
EXACTLY! It doesn't matter if I'm horny or not, because naked people > random TV. It's just convenient- and I feel like that even now, as it's 11pm and my parents have gone upstairs to sleep. The only thing really keeping me from hitting Google is the fact that my girlfriend and I just had a talk about this. I'm hoping that the convenience, and thus the problem, will go away if/when I live with my girlfriend.
Quote from SAC REVAMPED »
as for the pornography, i have given up on that stuff. it all looks the same to me and it doesn't interest me anymore. i'm 20, btw. i believe it's something that you just grow out of.
Wish I was you.
Quote from SAC REVAMPED »
did she ever "catch you in the act," so to speak? not going as far as seeing you masturbate, but find pics and videos in your room/on your PC? was it interfering with your relationship?
Nah, I cleared anything that I might be caught with long before she touched the computer. Her stumbling upon anything I had probably would have been too much for the early relationship to handle, let alone the fact that there was so much of it.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
So they just watch it because they've gotten used to watching it? If that's the case, that's a pretty lame habit. Forget I even asked.
Exactly. Every day, afterschool, I used to come home and there would be no one around. My parents would be out until about 4pm because they would be at work/shopping/whatever, and if they weren't and they were upstairs sleeping, my sister wouldn't come home until 5pm-ish. So I looked at porn, and I masturbated. Didn't matter if I was horny or not, it was just convenient. I made a habit out of it, and I did it whenever I was alone. Even now I still feel the urge to, because it's convenient. That's my problem.
I want to thank you for playing the Devil's advocate in this thread though. Constructive, contrary points of vew are helpful, rather than the "YOUR GIRLFRIEND IS BAD" posts.
Quote from mamelon »
Zyrakis - is this book she read called "Every Young Man's Battle"?
I've heard of it. From what I can recall from the infomercial, their points aren't actually very good, they're sophistric at best. I haven't read it though.
The writers claim that porn is "sinful" (which means different things to different people), but fail to actually identify what is problematic about it. For instance, one guy claimed that porn is "wrong" because it's "selfish and focused on just yourself." If that were really a problem, then soooo many things, including eating, sleeping, and any non-group-oriented hobby would be "wrong." Pleasure isn't bad. In fact, enjoyment is healthy.
Yeah, like I said, it makes me want to barf. On top of that, it makes me doubt my own beliefs, and that alone is a reason to stop reading. It just makes me feel depressed and uncomfortable, rather than help the situation.
Quote from mamelon »
I'm afraid I just see it as another example of people who feel something is wrong but can't actually explain why. Really, all moral concept comes from feeling, and not thought. I just wish people would realize that, it might make it easier to address moral issues.
I get so frustated with religion sometimes because of how difficult it seems to have made it for people to be really moral. Yes, I realize that's a generalization, and off topic. Sorry.
Don't be sorry, it's true and it's a factor in this case, because morality is one of the weapons she weilds, I suppose.
Quote from carrion pigeons »
I'm afraid that the topic has strayed a little from its original purpose. A huge number of contributors to this thread have assumed that the GF is making a demand that Zyrakis is suffering under. But as far as I can tell, any suffering involved in this situation is totally self-motivated. His GF was nothing more than a catalyst to show him that he really wanted, in and of himself, to change his habits. I admire you for that, Zyr.
I don't think it's fair to turn this into an argument about how unfair his GF is being, because that isn't really the issue, and almost smacks of an effort to undermine a perfectly good relationship just because they don't understand it. I say, as long as you really want to change, she's good for you, and you should stick with her for as long as she'll let you.
Thank you for pointing that out- it's a change I want to make, it's not something I'm suffering from. It's exactly as you describe here. I don't want to leave her for porn- and that's all I'd be getting from doing so. I'd be losing a whole lot more, non-sexually.
Quote from carrion pigeons »
Now, from your point of view, there may or may not be anything wrong with that, but it is nevertheless a fact. You can go without sex, or any form of sexual stimulation, be it pornography, oral sex, or merely masturbation (as I see you ranking them), and the only thing that will change is that you will eventually wonder why it was so difficult to imagine going without them. If you want to change your sexual habits, then the first thing to do is to convince yourself that this is true. You don't lose anything by not looking at porn. Your libido will not suddenly flow into other realms of exploration, unless you want it to. An orgasm will gradually become less and less of an end in itself, and you will wonder why it ever was.
I just wanted that to be clear.
I get some of that, but what was that bolded statement in reference to, specifically? What do I have to convince myself of? Sorry, it must have flown over my head at this hour.
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Getting the last word does not mean that you win the argument.
as for the pornography, i have given up on that stuff. it all looks the same to me and it doesn't interest me anymore. i'm 20, btw. i believe it's something that you just grow out of.
Wow. I never thought someone had the same idea as me about this:o
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Quote from Marce »
clergy en-vec read the flavor text prior to looking at the picture...much worse then boros guildmage
______zyrakris's gemstone caverns thread \/\/\/
Quote from ElementalCreatureToken »
Quote from SqueektheWeek »
i think this card is Freakin' awesome just imagine zoo with this even on the draw u flex "Nutz" any mana drawing the extra card u can pitch and turning up the gas on tempo and it still taps for mana easily a 3 of most likely a 4 of
Can somebody translate that please?
Quote from darkhammy »
Hang on, I need my gibber-to-english dictionary. Ah yes, here it is,
Sorry about the ambiguity. I meant that the first thing you have to realize after you know you want to quit is that you don't get anything from your habit. Any positive results that come from dropping it aren't trade-offs; they're purely gifts that you give to yourself at no cost: the extra time, the extra value to your romantic relationship, the extra strength to your willpower all come at no cost to you.
C.S. Lewis wrote a book (admittedly heavily Christianity-themed) called the Great Divorce, in which a very good example of this happened. It's in chapter 11, if you ever feel a desire to go read it. (I tried to outline the basic points of the story, but I realized that it would likely seem too mystical or cheesy without giving it in full, and it's far too long for that - several pages.) The point of the story, in the long run, is that we can get attached to things that don't hurt us, but keep us from things that actively help us, and that realizing that is a very hard lesson to learn.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
...I've heard of LBTG before, but I? Nothing's coming to mind.
"I" stands for intersexual.
Quote from carrion pigeons »
However, I will note that almost everyone who's responded to this thread is obviously sexually active, and has been for a long time, so I want to disabuse you of a notion that seems so far to have gone undisputed.
I'm not sexually active, actually, nor have I ever been.
Quote from carrion pigeons »
The male libido is not an ever-flowing fountain of sexual urges. It only becomes that if one lets it.
Well, I'm inclined to agree with you there. Males aren't necessarily even more libidinous than females. However, there can be a tendency for most males to have a stronger sex drive, at least during puberty.
Fo example, a comment I made earlier, about female-to-males. I've heard some stories about how strange the adjustment to testosterone can be. Most of them did say that their libidos got stronger after starting to take testosterone (it is like a second puberty, you see). One guy actually said that he and his girlfriend decided that he would masturbate one hour before he and she had sex so that he wouldn't get too "worked up" during. Another said he felt like he was going through a profound change like that of a werewolf.
Now, it's not true that males are "animalistic," nor that "testosterone makes you do things." Hormones don't make people a certain way, always, and even if they did, it's clear that most males handle it well after puberty is over. Some males aren't even very strongly sexual, and certainly they don't all have the same level of nervous system sensitivity or hormonal activity. But sometimes testosterone can be a factor in this.
I do, however, agree with you that "going without" really isn't so hard. That's easy for me to say though, since my libido isn't as strong as most people's, I think.
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Not to put words in your mouth, Denver, but I suspect you mean "selfrighteousness" rather than "entitlement". there.
They're interchangeable in this instance, I'd say.
Quote from Zyrakis »
Since I didn't really have much of an argument for it other than "it lets me down slowly", she didn't buy it and I had to just "cut it out".
You may need to find some way to talk to her about it some more, then, if she doesn't realize the effect it has on you.
Quote from Zyrakis »
Yes, it does help. But I've heard from that book that women are more stimulated by touch, while men by vision.
Well, people can be stimulated by more than one thing. Both of those comments about women are generally accepted. They are generalizations, of course.
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because morality is one of the weapons she weilds, I suppose.
That could be a problem. Morality really shouldn't be a weapon.
Quote from Zyrakis »
It just makes me feel depressed and uncomfortable, rather than help the situation.
Listen to this feeling. If something is upsetting you, maybe you should mention it, even if you feel like it's "justified."
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What do you mean by "more than this is necessary"?
I mean that for some people with such a habit, they need to deal with a deeper issue before it stops being problematic.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Anyway, the girl has insecurity issues, bottom line. Not only is it unreasonable for her to try and change you, and DEMAND you to do this and that, it is even more unreasonable for her to ask you to think of her when whacking off. Porn is a fantasy land, and its sole purpose is for you to get a nut. Its not some fulfilling, enlightening thing, it is just there to help get a nut.
I also think it is dumb that just because she gives you head, she expects that to be enough. I have a girlfriend, and I get laid anywhere between once and three times per week, and I still beat off sometimes during the week. Just because I have sex with my girlfriend, doesn't mean that she is always there when the need comes along, and she shouldn't have to be, and thats when porn rears its head.
Basically, I don't buy into her infidelity argument. She is inseucre, thats it. Besides, well, I can't speak for everyone, but when I get laid, I don't go running off to look at porn. I have been satisfied. Do you run to porn after you and your girlfriend are through? I'm guessing no. Besides, in most cases, all of those infidelity cases she is talking about could be solved by those couples having more sex. Why would they need another outlet if they were getting enough? I know this isn't always the case, but it would solve way more cases than not.
Damn, i used to have a girlfriend that went NUTS if i wasn't STARING at her when she was with me. In other words, if i looked somewhere else, she thought i was checking some other girl. Belive me, that is not healthy.
-Zigmat, Rat Overlord
I do my masturbation at night.
That means you shouldn't read it?
It is broken into paragraphs, not to mention several line spaces. If you need more line spaces, I can do that, no problem, but I'd rather go without the snide remarks . . .
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
I do have one question. Should a person always give up something if his/her significant other asks it? For instance, if someone really likes coffee, and her boyfriend wants her to not drink coffee, should she give it up?
Now, I do realize that coffee and pornography are very different and have very different implications for a relationship. What I'm wondering is, are you advising he give it up just because she asked, or because it's pornography, specifically?
This could help, but chances pretty are good that it won't, at least not in the long term. Again, if there really is a problem, then that problem will probably end up either coming out in a worse way, or ocassionally "taking control," ending up in upsetting and impulsive episodes of indulgence.
What I'm proposing is really not very radical. I'm not sure how many therapists, for instance, are presenting this method for overcoming harmful habits, but I know a lot more are, and it is part of the acknowledgement that being mindful (aware and non-judgmental) of your personal problems and habits can be very positive in dealing with them.
Fore example, let's say I have a problem with eating too much sugar. Now, trying to make myself change ("I will not eat any sugar today, I will not eat any sugar today . . .") has never helped, nor has that tactic helped anyone I know with their problems. Once I started to look at the problem in a different way, "indulge" the habit in a careful and more healthful way (i.e. eat more honey and fruit and less refined sugar), it actually starts to help. I no longer have such a sweet tooth. I'm no longer fighting, so there's no more battle. Instead, I can try to gain more insight into why I eat so much sugar, and look for a way to cope with that.
I can say from experience that this attitude has helped me in the past. It's similar to the way that people trying to stop smoking often fail when they try to quit cold turkey, or the way that forcing yourself to eat less is often counterproductive when tyring to lose weight.
I don't think you're girlfriend is bad, Zarkius, and even if I did, it really wouldn't be my place to say. Rather, I just said that if she weren't being understanding and patient about the issue, then that's not helping matters (by the way, I don't know if she's understanding or not, I'm making a conditional statement).
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Because you think porn can be nothing but a way of getting off. To you, perhaps, but not everyone. Hence naivitey (lol spelling?!),
This doesn't sound like the original poster's case at all, though. He's said himself he looks at porn even when not horny.
as for the pornography, i have given up on that stuff. it all looks the same to me and it doesn't interest me anymore. i'm 20, btw. i believe it's something that you just grow out of.
did she ever "catch you in the act," so to speak? not going as far as seeing you masturbate, but find pics and videos in your room/on your PC? was it interfering with your relationship?
anyways...
if she has a problem with it, i believe you need to aknowlege her concern. it will be hard, very hard, to wean yourself off of porn if you were used to viewing that kind of material. and there's always your imagination...
Care to enlighten me, then?
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I think he means that for some it's just a habit that no longer has much to do with sexual release - correct, Turbovolver?
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
So they just watch it because they've gotten used to watching it? If that's the case, that's a pretty lame habit. Forget I even asked.
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Well, for some it's compulsive. That's what an addiction is really (which I'm sure you already knew). It's a behavior that is very hard, if not nearly impossible to control. The idea for this instance is that he's saying he doesn't look at porn just to aid in masturbation anymore - he does it as a compulsion (at least that's what I gather), and he's having trouble quitting.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Not everyone deserves another person.
There isn't a "somebody for everybody."
And the kind of people who negatively limit their SO's behavior fall in that category.
Being hurt by pornography is different from being constrictively Puritanical about it.
Oh, get over yourself.
I go to a relatively liberal college (big words, considering what the average college atmosphere is like), and I run into all kinds of people who hate pornography.
Some of them have very good points.
Others have bad points and a lot of heart.
Others still have nothing to offer other than vitriolic sentiment and a feeling of entitlement.
Having done some reading into sexual compulsion, addictions (both physical and psychological) and obsession, I was reminded of A) why I constantly skipped my psyche classes and B) why I dislike addiction being used as a justification for weakness (not specidically in this thread, just in general).
Personally, I fall in the camp that views sexual compulsion with a skeptical eye. As someone who doesn't have a degree in psychology, I'm obviously not equipped to say sexual addiction doesn't exist, but I do doubt it's a factor as often as it's offered as one.
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Oh, I know. I actually don't think that compulsive use of porn is the same as sexual addiction. It's just that any behavior that you have trouble stopping doing if you want to is basically a compulsion. I don't think using porn makes you an "addict."
I agree with you, MikeyG, that porn isn't "bad and sick." I also understand, say, SterlingAngel, very much.
I find a lot of different kinds of porn I have seen or encountered on websites in the past to be very disturbing. Especially gay male porn aimed at girls, lesbian porn aimed at boys, and "tranny" porn (i.e. "shemales").
*shudders*
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
According to my (admittedly minimalistic) research, sexual compulsion/addiction includes compulsive acts of any sexual behavior, including masturbation and viewing pornography. Though I, too, have a bit of an issue with lumping compulsive use of porn in with the rest.
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I've heard of it. From what I can recall from the infomercial, their points aren't actually very good, they're sophistric at best. I haven't read it though.
The writers claim that porn is "sinful" (which means different things to different people), but fail to actually identify what is problematic about it. For instance, one guy claimed that porn is "wrong" because it's "selfish and focused on just yourself." If that were really a problem, then soooo many things, including eating, sleeping, and any non-group-oriented hobby would be "wrong." Pleasure isn't bad. In fact, enjoyment is healthy.
I'm afraid I just see it as another example of people who feel something is wrong but can't actually explain why. Really, all moral concept comes from feeling, and not thought. I just wish people would realize that, it might make it easier to address moral issues.
I get so frustated with religion sometimes because of how difficult it seems to have made it for people to be really moral. Yes, I realize that's a generalization, and off topic. Sorry.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Well it could be the convenience thing I described earlier... something along the lines of porn/masturbation feels good, I want to feel good so I will do it (it really is as simple as that, and this is one reason why it can be so addictive). This way when ever there is the opportunity, porn will come into things, because it is the best option at a wide range of given times.
There are also things like 'porn collections', where it becomes a hobby that is essentially sexual stamp collecting, but also potentially addictive.
Probably other examples as well, but these are ones that I'm familiar with.
I know I never ejaculate when looking at porn, but I still do look at it.
Considering how much I tend to agree with you, I'm curious as to why these forms of porn would be so disturbing. Do you care to enlighten me?
All very good points and good examples, once again, Turbovolver.
Part of it may be that I never seem to stumble upon the more "normal" (heterosexual) stuff on random websites, especially foreign ones. But I guess the real matter is they just hit too close to home. As a result, I tend to feel more understanding when people of any demographic say they are upset or disturbed by porn.
As for why those types specifically, part of it is I'm part of the LGBTI category, so . . . I'm not sure if that explains it or not, but I'm also not sure how much I want to get into personal matters on a debate thread.
I've felt like I was viewed as a sexual object before, and I guess it just brings it back up in my mind.
Edit: I guess this isn't technically a debate thread, but I hope you get what I mean, anyway.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Regarding everything from page 3 to page 6
To Harkius, Mamelon, and Turbovolver, thank you for understanding that this isn't a thread about breaking things off with my girlfriend because porn>her, nor is it about me feeling too controlled, but it's about something I'm struggling with and I was wondering if I was alone in this struggle.
To Mamelon and Turbovolver, you're both dead on on so many things. From the "Porn>Random TV" to the book name (it's actually "Every Man's Battle" but I'm not one to split hairs half the time), you guys are right, and I'll get quoting so I can point out specifically how.
I'm afraid that the topic has strayed a little from its original purpose. A huge number of contributors to this thread have assumed that the GF is making a demand that Zyrakis is suffering under. But as far as I can tell, any suffering involved in this situation is totally self-motivated. His GF was nothing more than a catalyst to show him that he really wanted, in and of himself, to change his habits. I admire you for that, Zyr.
I don't think it's fair to turn this into an argument about how unfair his GF is being, because that isn't really the issue, and almost smacks of an effort to undermine a perfectly good relationship just because they don't understand it. I say, as long as you really want to change, she's good for you, and you should stick with her for as long as she'll let you.
I won't try to argue that masturbation is wrong, since there's obviously no religious basis we share on which to found such an argument. And I certainly wouldn't argue that going to "3.9th base" is wrong. However, I will note that almost everyone who's responded to this thread is obviously sexually active, and has been for a long time, so I want to disabuse you of a notion that seems so far to have gone undisputed. The male libido is not an ever-flowing fountain of sexual urges. It only becomes that if one lets it. I, personally, have never had any kind of urgent "need" to have sex, because I have never had sex. The drive comes in the doing of the act, and it gets stronger the more it gets done, until you can't even conceive of going without it, or of anyone else doing so. Most of the people who have responded to this thread are clearly in that category, and so they believe it is unreasonable to expect someone to deny those urges at all.
Now, from your point of view, there may or may not be anything wrong with that, but it is nevertheless a fact. You can go without sex, or any form of sexual stimulation, be it pornography, oral sex, or merely masturbation (as I see you ranking them), and the only thing that will change is that you will eventually wonder why it was so difficult to imagine going without them. If you want to change your sexual habits, then the first thing to do is to convince yourself that this is true. You don't lose anything by not looking at porn. Your libido will not suddenly flow into other realms of exploration, unless you want it to. An orgasm will gradually become less and less of an end in itself, and you will wonder why it ever was.
I just wanted that to be clear. People may or may not call that an addiction. It certainly couldn't be called a physical depency; there are no withdrawal symptoms that I ever heard of. Calling it an addiction is likely to inspire sarcastic remarks from people who see nothing wrong with it. But there is no doubt that it is only among the people who don't want to stop that exist those who can't imagine stopping. Those who don't do it don't have much trouble.
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It's true that while she is understanding, I tried to suggest letting me watch it only a little bit. Keep in mind this whole argument has long been dead, and I don't really question it. Since I didn't really have much of an argument for it other than "it lets me down slowly", she didn't buy it and I had to just "cut it out". Then it came back to me, and I screwed up. I felt reluctant about it, but I gave in, with only guilt to look forward to in the end. As much as I want to enjoy it when I give in, I can't. It's difficult to, even when we have broken up and there are no reprecussions.
What do you mean by "more than this is necessary"?
Yeah, she is understanding, and she does recognize that it is a habit, it's just that I can't argue very well offline. Online, I can take my time with my statements and whatever, but offline it's a different deal. If I could successfully talk with her about letting me look at it a little bit, then.. it's a little late for that. Having been "off porn" for a while now, in her eyes it would be her letting me view more so I could get "addicted" or "corrupted" more- basically, it would be a step backward.
Yes, it does help. But I've heard from that book that women are more stimulated by touch, while men by vision. I know, it's a BS book, and it's so preachy it makes me want to barf, but it seems that that could be correct. It's just that most pornography aimed toward women is linguistically based.
EXACTLY! It doesn't matter if I'm horny or not, because naked people > random TV. It's just convenient- and I feel like that even now, as it's 11pm and my parents have gone upstairs to sleep. The only thing really keeping me from hitting Google is the fact that my girlfriend and I just had a talk about this. I'm hoping that the convenience, and thus the problem, will go away if/when I live with my girlfriend.
Wish I was you.
Nah, I cleared anything that I might be caught with long before she touched the computer. Her stumbling upon anything I had probably would have been too much for the early relationship to handle, let alone the fact that there was so much of it.
Exactly. Every day, afterschool, I used to come home and there would be no one around. My parents would be out until about 4pm because they would be at work/shopping/whatever, and if they weren't and they were upstairs sleeping, my sister wouldn't come home until 5pm-ish. So I looked at porn, and I masturbated. Didn't matter if I was horny or not, it was just convenient. I made a habit out of it, and I did it whenever I was alone. Even now I still feel the urge to, because it's convenient. That's my problem.
I want to thank you for playing the Devil's advocate in this thread though. Constructive, contrary points of vew are helpful, rather than the "YOUR GIRLFRIEND IS BAD" posts.
Yeah, like I said, it makes me want to barf. On top of that, it makes me doubt my own beliefs, and that alone is a reason to stop reading. It just makes me feel depressed and uncomfortable, rather than help the situation.
Don't be sorry, it's true and it's a factor in this case, because morality is one of the weapons she weilds, I suppose.
Thank you for pointing that out- it's a change I want to make, it's not something I'm suffering from. It's exactly as you describe here. I don't want to leave her for porn- and that's all I'd be getting from doing so. I'd be losing a whole lot more, non-sexually.
I get some of that, but what was that bolded statement in reference to, specifically? What do I have to convince myself of? Sorry, it must have flown over my head at this hour.
Wow. I never thought someone had the same idea as me about this:o
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C.S. Lewis wrote a book (admittedly heavily Christianity-themed) called the Great Divorce, in which a very good example of this happened. It's in chapter 11, if you ever feel a desire to go read it. (I tried to outline the basic points of the story, but I realized that it would likely seem too mystical or cheesy without giving it in full, and it's far too long for that - several pages.) The point of the story, in the long run, is that we can get attached to things that don't hurt us, but keep us from things that actively help us, and that realizing that is a very hard lesson to learn.
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"I" stands for intersexual.
I'm not sexually active, actually, nor have I ever been.
Well, I'm inclined to agree with you there. Males aren't necessarily even more libidinous than females. However, there can be a tendency for most males to have a stronger sex drive, at least during puberty.
Fo example, a comment I made earlier, about female-to-males. I've heard some stories about how strange the adjustment to testosterone can be. Most of them did say that their libidos got stronger after starting to take testosterone (it is like a second puberty, you see). One guy actually said that he and his girlfriend decided that he would masturbate one hour before he and she had sex so that he wouldn't get too "worked up" during. Another said he felt like he was going through a profound change like that of a werewolf.
Now, it's not true that males are "animalistic," nor that "testosterone makes you do things." Hormones don't make people a certain way, always, and even if they did, it's clear that most males handle it well after puberty is over. Some males aren't even very strongly sexual, and certainly they don't all have the same level of nervous system sensitivity or hormonal activity. But sometimes testosterone can be a factor in this.
I do, however, agree with you that "going without" really isn't so hard. That's easy for me to say though, since my libido isn't as strong as most people's, I think.
They're interchangeable in this instance, I'd say.
You may need to find some way to talk to her about it some more, then, if she doesn't realize the effect it has on you.
Well, people can be stimulated by more than one thing. Both of those comments about women are generally accepted. They are generalizations, of course.
That could be a problem. Morality really shouldn't be a weapon.
Listen to this feeling. If something is upsetting you, maybe you should mention it, even if you feel like it's "justified."
I mean that for some people with such a habit, they need to deal with a deeper issue before it stops being problematic.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20