K so I think based on gameflow, perhaps the scum build of this game is one low poster/one high poster. This game doesn't feel overly dominated by scum (there's not like a couple townreads dominating the game that were somehow not nightkilled N1 or something like that) so not exactly Wisp/Proph.
What would a game dominated by scum feel like? Just a weird N1 kill? Are there other things you'd expect to see?
Too much consensus (which could also mean that scum are sitting back and enjoy the game state) but that's not happening here. Or like, psudo consensus where town doesn't have to fight hard for their scumreads because scum knows they're wrong.
This game, we can't seem to come to a conclusion on who is the scum and who is not.
y'all have to play the game to figure out who the wolves are. Or at least work hard enough to find town, and vote in a PoE.
Too much consensus (which could also mean that scum are sitting back and enjoy the game state) but that's not happening here. Or like, psudo consensus where town doesn't have to fight hard for their scumreads because scum knows they're wrong.
This game, we can't seem to come to a conclusion on who is the scum and who is not.
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment that the game isn't like that. There is broad consensus that Axel, Wisp, and Proph are townie (I'm a lone voice yelling against Proph. Wisp occasionally agrees with me but doesn't want to act on it first). There is broad consensus that the pool of Eco, you, and Dota contains at least one scum. D1 was pretty consensus'y on Osie/GJ right up till the end and still went back to it.
What makes you think that this game doesn't have consensus when Dota has been at majority -2 multiple times today and has m-1 in spirit from Proph?
Axel isn't eliminated as a wolf, but it's unlikely.
Why is it BS?
I gave u a chance with your first big set of reads. Making up bs as to why DV could be a wolf, then randomly re-evaluating that. You then reached so far to call me a wolf and not once have you tried to see me as town. You even suggesting that axel can be in the PoEz without even talking about his posts, just blows my mind. I don't think you are reading the game with the intention of solving from a town perspective, if you are even fully reading, or rather skimming to find what can keep people in the PoE. It's literally day 2, of a micro, with only one more mis yeet available. And I feel like y'all aren't even trying to remove people from the PoE. But you have the audacity to keep shading me and Proph? And now Axel?
I'm going to sleep, this is irritating
How am I sahding you and proph? I'm literally saying "I think there's scum in X and Y". Do you dispute my reasoning? Doi you not think theres a scum in the high posters and low posters? Why not? I've presented why I think this, feel free to talk about why that's wrong.
And no I'm not trying to see you as town. That's now how I'm playing the game. Sorry if that method doesn't mesh with how you would like others to play mafia.
I'm not seeing why you think I should see you as e facto town and why Axel should be completely eliminated from the PoE. I never fully eliminate people from the PoE unless there's mechanics involved because nonmechanical stuff is highly subjective.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Too much consensus (which could also mean that scum are sitting back and enjoy the game state) but that's not happening here. Or like, psudo consensus where town doesn't have to fight hard for their scumreads because scum knows they're wrong.
This game, we can't seem to come to a conclusion on who is the scum and who is not.
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment that the game isn't like that. There is broad consensus that Axel, Wisp, and Proph are townie (I'm a lone voice yelling against Proph. Wisp occasionally agrees with me but doesn't want to act on it first). There is broad consensus that the pool of Eco, you, and Dota contains at least one scum. D1 was pretty consensus'y on Osie/GJ right up till the end and still went back to it.
What makes you think that this game doesn't have consensus when Dota has been at majority -2 multiple times today and has m-1 in spirit from Proph?
Yeah there's gonna be SOME, but not TOO MUCH is my point.
Yeah there's a poE today of me. Eco and DotA have scum. That doesn't mean that that pool is all town, it likely just means that the scum isn't a high priority in it.
The scum would think in that case that they can survive the Day if we yeet the scummiest of those players. I'm guessing it's probably Eco if DotA is being so heavily pushed for (unless there's some bussing going on)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
1. PM me expressing whether or not you would be interested in an extension of day of 24 hours due to Ecophagy replacing in.
2. Are weekends just horrible for everyone? Because I'm considering restructuring the day cycle so day will take place Monday-Friday, with Saturday and Sunday being night. Let me know.
I have a few qusetions about this Eco, first why did you specifically ask Proph for help reading Wisp? Just because of the fact that he changed his read? I get that you ask a couple questions to him here but it feels like you could ask anyone town reading Wisp. Second what is your actual read? Do you think it's Wisp/Dota? Or are you just not convinced on him one way or another yet?
I asked Proph because he has a very strong read that caused a total change in heart, so he's the one I want to explain what I can't see. Who else is actually hard townreading Wisp? My actual read on Wisp is that he's done a lot of things I don't like (even just now #942/3 is such a huge overreaction to being called possible scum), but my top-town-guy Proph is absolutely convinced Wisp is town with meta reasons which justify a lot of Wisp's actions.
Speaking of KJ, I want to give #941 town points for looking at the game holistically and ending up with some...unusual reads. But the logic is really flimsy (as Grape has already pointed out) and it's missing the possible scenario that the mafia are all in the PoE and can't post enough to get out. Probably because the most likely team in that case is DoTA and KJ. So if KJ really believes that the game state means there's mafia in Proph/LW/Axelrod then I would really like to see some research to work out which one rather than picking softest option LW out of a hat. An option that KJ is immediately backing down from in the face of conflict.
Do your research yourself, I would even argue that axel is townier than me and Proph, and I know I am town. That's why the read annoys me. And again, I will rip any bad reads, especially if they are at me, as soon as possible.
There is nothing specifically townie about being different, especially if you don't bring arguments with it. It's dangerous, and like a slap in the face till the people playing the game. While I will argue it's not even really wolfy, I think it's wolfy for KJ to be playing like a god damn robot. And Killjoy avoiding a fight is not townie for him what so ever.
Proph is only still in the PoE because of his mannerisms, and maybe his early read of Osie. But that's about it, I do not think anyone is controlling the game, half the player list is playing at their own pace, which gives off the vibe that mafia may like the game state.
But Killjoy does have decent amount of posts that can be interpreted as townie, which is somewhat based on meta and somewhat based on tells and nuance. I'm not removing him from the PoE, but I slept on it, and I think I'm overreacting to idiocracy
Also plz inform the class to the "lots of things I did" that are wolfie. Idk how after all these posts, I still even find one thing I like from you. Even dota has at least one post I like from him. I think Cantrips overlap posts early on didn't give wolfy vibes, but that went completely out the window when other people started entering the PoE with their continued presence
OK so we broadly feel the same way that KJ is kind of disconnected but doing his own thing is not actively wolfy for him. I wouldn't call it a slap in the face, but I would absolutely like more support of the world view he's pulled out of thin air. Also I did mean KJ backing down was scummy - I definitely don't like him floating this holistic system to avoid the current thread and bailing on it as soon as it get flak.
OK so we broadly feel the same way that KJ is kind of disconnected but doing his own thing is not actively wolfy for him. I wouldn't call it a slap in the face, but I would absolutely like more support of the world view he's pulled out of thin air. Also I did mean KJ backing down was scummy - I definitely don't like him floating this holistic system to avoid the current thread and bailing on it as soon as it get flak.
ok I misread that bottom line then, my bad. Anyways I have work
Both you and killjoy with your jabs can be seen as shade since you aren't putting almost any words behind your wolf reads. That is one of the strongest reasons to hate both of you
Also plz inform the class to the "lots of things I did" that are wolfie. Idk how after all these posts, I still even find one thing I like from you. Even dota has at least one post I like from him. I think Cantrips overlap posts early on didn't give wolfy vibes, but that went completely out the window when other people started entering the PoE with their continued presence
I did mention some in #891, but to repeat myself: I think your early game was defensive and you've made sure we know how relaxed you are. You've spent the whole game very vocally being unsure of Proph's alignment but have voted alongside/agreed with him pretty consistently. #230 you tried to focus the game on "low poster" just after Proph cased you. Holding out for this "game" has been a great stalling tactic. This recent overreaction to KJ calling you possible scum was really scummy, and now you're dumping on me for the same reason.
There have been town things as well and maybe this is just meta or something which is why I'm asking Proph and why I'm going to slog through the games he linked this evening. But you can't act like you're some paragon of town behaviour and shoot your vote at anyone who looks at you funny and expect no reaction.
Both you and killjoy with your jabs can be seen as shade since you aren't putting almost any words behind your wolf reads. That is one of the strongest reasons to hate both of you
If you don't think I put words behind my reads you have another thing coming boyo.
Both you and killjoy with your jabs can be seen as shade since you aren't putting almost any words behind your wolf reads. That is one of the strongest reasons to hate both of you
If you don't think I put words behind my reads you have another thing coming boyo.
u don't, and you are blind to ur own words if you think, "a lot of bad posts", is anything but shade
Also being defensive is inherently townie for me, but I won't fight u on that because have less experience with me.
Being defensive is NAI for DV and townie for me. It's irrelevant outside context
I'm going to fight with anyone that calls me a wolf, whether it's day 1, post 1, post 1000, post 10,000, day 2, or Lylo. That's how I play, if you wanna call me a wolf, u better put your money where your mouth is, or I will bring zues' wrath on this thread
And this is not about my paragon of towniness, this about y'all being against the grain, and it's something that should be noted. From your PoV, sure u might have to break the PoE, since you might be a wolf and your partner my also be a low poster. But it's still a problrm either way
I thought he meant to ask about Axel, because that was the only read I could think of that he might have thought of since you never switched your read on Osie's slot
That's what confused me as well. It seems he was asking about me moving from a town lean before the replacement to a scum read after, which makes no sense. And if KJ did mean Axel, the question still doesn't make sense.
I'd have to go find what I asked u back then
Why doesn't it make sense? Either way?
Scenario 1 (What was asked): KJ is asking how I went from a townlean on Cross/Osie to a scumread of GJ. I never had a townlean on Crossbell so where is he getting that from?
Scenario 2 (What you suspect he meant to ask): How do I get from a townlean on Axel to a scumread of GJ? Why would KJ ask this, and how would he confuse Cross/Osie for Axel?
Yo, everyone. We have two mafia. Who do you currently think they are? I would just like 2 names in your next post. Don’t care if you explain why right now. (I know some people have already done this, please just re-state for the record)
DoTA and Grape checked in but did not answer this. Killjoy has not checked in since I asked. Still want this.
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
@Dote what grabbed you about the Osie/Crossbell team building post? Feels weird to mention definite scum in his early town reads when talking about someone who flipped town.
When I was rereading I noticed the team building and made the note to keep track of his reads, since DV flipped town and I know I'm town, he was obviously fooled by someone into thinking they're town. Was a note to self to keep track of how his reads developed from that point.
Starting with the mafia game on Throne of Lies, the playstyle was pretty clear. LW's posts were really short (one-whole-sentence-at-best short). He made reads (some town, some mafia) but they were kind of just thrown out there with viurtually no reasoning. He voted very rarely (but did want a lot of votecounts), and when he did he made it seem like he was being forced to by others not voting correctly (possibly at deadlines? Game context is really hard to get on that site) rather than proactively. He made two big posts (3937 and 3941) which were both quote walls defending himself from attack - his tone in them was very relaxed and using rhetorical questions in defence rather than seeking conflict.
So that game makes for a pretty obvious scum meta right? Short sharp posts, hard reads with no reasons, rare and reluctant voting. Big posts in self-defence, but no real interest in conflict.
Compared to Ballade des Dames du Temps Jadis and the difference is pretty stark. The posts are on average much longer and give a lot more insight into Wisp's thoughts - a lot more reasons and worldbuilding. No all that much voting, but the usage was more proactive. He also didn't get attacked that much, but when he did (by Gorta) he was much more confrontational and counter voted (it must be noted, incorrectly).
Coming then to this game, and LW's play is clearly much more like his town play. His posts are pretty meaty, he's got real reads, voting proactively, and he's leaning in to confrontation when challenged. In fact, I would say pretty much all of these traits are more amplified here - he's voting more, responding more aggressively to being suspected, thinking more about his reads out loud. If I squint, I can see scum!LW being aware of what his town meta is and really pushing to emulate it and ending up going over the top. But if that is truly the case then he's somehow able to play his town meta by removing even more of a filter and posting rawer thoughts and being more confrontational, which is basically the hardest thing for someone to do as scum, especially if their natural scum meta is to clam up.
Ultimately I get a lot more of what Proph was talking about now - scum LW would find it very difficult to be posting as much content about his internal process as he has been, even if I disagree with the conclusions or other actions. I think there's still someone to be gained by trying to look at the underlying mindset behind some of the reads (in particular contradictions or convenient/tactical reads) in case LW is somehow overcompensating their town act. But that probably requires some more flips, and the meta argument is definitely convincing enough that I don't see the need to dig deeper unless I actually have to.
@DoTArchon: You're not really playing like the person at the bottom of the PoE the day before the deadline. Do you have counter-arguments or alternatives? Or are you going to carry on just plodding around doing your own narrow thing ignoring the situation until you die?
I have a few qusetions about this Eco, first why did you specifically ask Proph for help reading Wisp? Just because of the fact that he changed his read? I get that you ask a couple questions to him here but it feels like you could ask anyone town reading Wisp. Second what is your actual read? Do you think it's Wisp/Dota? Or are you just not convinced on him one way or another yet?
I asked Proph because he has a very strong read that caused a total change in heart, so he's the one I want to explain what I can't see. Who else is actually hard townreading Wisp? My actual read on Wisp is that he's done a lot of things I don't like (even just now #942/3 is such a huge overreaction to being called possible scum), but my top-town-guy Proph is absolutely convinced Wisp is town with meta reasons which justify a lot of Wisp's actions.
Speaking of KJ, I want to give #941 town points for looking at the game holistically and ending up with some...unusual reads. But the logic is really flimsy (as Grape has already pointed out) and it's missing the possible scenario that the mafia are all in the PoE and can't post enough to get out. Probably because the most likely team in that case is DoTA and KJ. So if KJ really believes that the game state means there's mafia in Proph/LW/Axelrod then I would really like to see some research to work out which one rather than picking softest option LW out of a hat. An option that KJ is immediately backing down from in the face of conflict.
I'm not backing down because conflict, I'm backing down because I've played with Wisp a fair bit and his jumping on me for not townreading him and Proph isn't something scum Wisp tends to do. He's not the type to think that he's being the paragon of towniness as scum, nor would he start a fight to try to change my opinion like that.
And I've just been wondering if this gamesize will produce good VCA honestly. It's what I normally gravitate to but this game is really small and has much less info.
I'll still try it, but I'm wondering if it won't produce much.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ I don't really get why you've gone "here is a possible world based on game flow" then basically completely moved away from it when challenged/some counter evidence has been presented. And then you're not really doing anything about it. I'd expect you to be thinking more "here's my world view, let's check it against my reads and D1 VCA. Oh maybe I'm wrong about LW what does that mean for my world view?"
Your actions are all just disconnected and it's hard to not see them as doing Things To Look Town as opposed to trying to solve the game by using your tools together.
Need to dive into Eco's entrance a bit deeper but I am trying to figure out the repeated interactions with Proph. The repeated invocation of playing devil's advocate just is pinging me. Proph is in the position of power here and I'm not sure why he's putting the WIFOM out there on his handling of Wisp and Eco's reaction to it. Feels overly defensive while still trying to maintain distance from his actions. Why is proph spilling wine about his own theoretical scum motivations here. Rather than just the more assertive tone he was using at EoD and garnering town reads from DV for, just feels wrong to me.
I'm playing devil's advocate here because I want to see how Eco arrived to his townread on me, as opposed to the many different uncharitable reactions to my posts and playstyle. Eco is probably? The only player in this game that has come to a fully-fleshed townread on me beside Osie, and I wanted to poke sticks at it to make sure it was genuine.
As for the change of tone from EoD: EoD, I was absolutely convinced that GJ was town, and that you were mafia pushing for his mislunch. Today, I think that you might be town (and that I was wrong) and I want to focus on DoTA, who has been pretty detached from everything going on inside the thread thus far.
I hate using this argument, but I want to invoke it anyways. Grape, what mafia motivation do I have to pivot off of you Day 2 as opposed to continuing my tunnel from Day 1? Do you believe that I am focusing on DoTA today and then putting you on the backburner to be a possible lunch in my/lylo?
Quote from Killjoy »
K so I think based on gameflow, perhaps the scum build of this game is one low poster/one high poster. This game doesn't feel overly dominated by scum (there's not like a couple townreads dominating the game that were somehow not nightkilled N1 or something like that) so not exactly Wisp/Proph.
Why do you think there is a mafia in the high posters, if you don't believe that the game is overly dominated by scum?
Quote from Killjoy »
I feel like Axel is being really passive to be the lead scum. He's making a lot of big opinion posts, but isn't pushing really. Axel hasn't really been too proactive either, so he could be scum.
What does this statement even mean?
"I feel like Axel is too passive to be the lead scum." implies that you don't think he is the "lead scum". Then you say that he's making a lot of big opinion posts but isn't pushing anywhere and that he hasn't been proactive, so you think that he "could be scum". What do you mean by all of this? And if you think Axel is mafia, why aren't you pushing or interrogating him?
Quote from Killjoy »
Axel or DotA + Wisp for scum? The scum don't really have another really good leader, and I feel like they have one.
Do you have any behavioral evidence to base this off of, or is it just all working off of your theory that the scum "need to have a leader"?
I can't remember my own games, but I can sure remember other people's
Man, was that really Axel's last scum game? It's from 2013!
I read it anyway, Axel's mafia game early was characterised by going after LHF (Guardman for being weird, Iso for lying, Kpaca for being belligerent) and kind of just focusing on one person/thing at a time. His posts were still pretty big, but tended to be "agenda-y" in that they were dealing with fairly narrow events and driving towards getting his target dead - rather than a meandering look back at figuring a person out. To be fair though, I think his posts look roughly like they would look if Town Axel saw something he really hated and wanted to get executed, just with more tunnel vision. His play there is very different to his play here, but since it was 8 freaking years ago that's not really unexpected.
So, not really all that useful. But a very fun blast from the past, lots of memories. God I am a dinosaur.
Normally I'd be a little wary of a random player overreacting to scumreads on them, but given that Wisp is pretty non-confrontational as scum, him freaking out over Killjoy's poor post makes me townread him even more. Wisp/KJ are definitely not aligned at any rate.
Quote from Killjoy »
Axel isn't eliminated as a wolf, but it's unlikely.
Why is it BS?
Why is it unlikely, after you spent your last post mapping out worlds where Axel could be mafia?
Quote from Killjoy »
How am I sahding you and proph? I'm literally saying "I think there's scum in X and Y". Do you dispute my reasoning? Doi you not think theres a scum in the high posters and low posters? Why not? I've presented why I think this, feel free to talk about why that's wrong.
I think both of the scum are in the low posters because I've done a lot of behavioral and mindset analysis that makes me think that both Axel and Wisp are town. Unless I have solid reason to suspect one of them is snowing me, I'm just gonna trust in my handy Occam's Razor and blow past the scum.
Quote from Ecophagy »
I asked Proph because he has a very strong read that caused a total change in heart, so he's the one I want to explain what I can't see. Who else is actually hard townreading Wisp? My actual read on Wisp is that he's done a lot of things I don't like (even just now #942/3 is such a huge overreaction to being called possible scum), but my top-town-guy Proph is absolutely convinced Wisp is town with meta reasons which justify a lot of Wisp's actions.
I think Axel professed to a early townread on Wisp, but this was early page 1 stuff. The Axelrod of now may view things differently. I still have a strong townread on Wisp, and I see that you actually did the legwork on the meta-checking, so let me get to that in a bit.
Quote from Wisp »
I'm going to fight with anyone that calls me a wolf, whether it's day 1, post 1, post 1000, post 10,000, day 2, or Lylo. That's how I play, if you wanna call me a wolf, u better put your money where your mouth is, or I will bring zues' wrath on this thread
This is amusing to read, given how Wisp reacted to me calling him a wolf early game.
Eco - I guess one thing that might be missing from that ISO sans context was that our scumteam was actually pushing Wisp most of the time. I was pretty critical of Wisp starting Day 2, and Aelin in that game was Wisp's scumbuddy but she didn't realize that until Day 2. From there she tried turbobussing because of some mechanical information and it worked; we were able to skate to lylo based on that unprompted bus. You can look at Tarot Mafia on MU to see another example of his scum meta, or Modern Mafia I guess for meta from 2 years ago. My brain just went to that FoL game because Wisp and I /just/ wolfed together a couple of months ago on that site.
Quote from Ecophagy »
@DoTArchon: You're not really playing like the person at the bottom of the PoE the day before the deadline. Do you have counter-arguments or alternatives? Or are you going to carry on just plodding around doing your own narrow thing ignoring the situation until you die?
/barn
----
I still want DoTA dead. Kind of paranoid of a world where he ends up flipping town but he's not really giving us a whole lot. Again, I feel bad about his RL issues, but he is not using his time in-thread in a productive way I feel.
Eco has really good posts, and he's methodical and probing, just as what I'd expect of him. I also think, however, that Eco has the strongest scumgame out of everyone in this game, and I still haven't seen a whole lot from him that I think would be unfakeable or hard to fake for him as scum. So I am going to continue monitoring him for now. I liked the reach-out to me regarding the Wisp read, and I liked how he actually read the game I linked and he changed his opinion based on it. It's just that I don't know if that type of behavior is actually difficult for him to fake as scum.
KJ's last string of posts have been objectively poor, but I am still not sure if he does this if he's mafia. Random evaluations of the gamestate and leaps in logic are weird coming from him, but I don't really see an overarching maliciousness or attempt to steer the game towards a grander agenda. I would like him to answer my questions though.
Gun to head, Grape is still likely town to me, but his pressure on me wavers from "I think he's town because of it" to "he's trying to probably discredit me" depending on the day. The thing I am choosing to stake my read on his alignment is is that I don't think Grape has the balls to come after me if he's a wolf here and I'm hyperposting town, especially after I amped it up at EoD. I feel like wolf Grape would struggle to overcome the TMI he would have as a wolf and he try to maybe pivot off of me rather than continuously get stuck on me.
tldr, gun to head: I'm still at DoTA/Eco, and I'm buying into the narrative that Eco is replacing into a sunk scum team and is trying to turn it around by going for the hard bus on his slanking teammate and then trying to take the towncred from that into lylo. It's like the only move he has as scum. Problem with that interpretation though is that DoTA has been so underwhelming I can see Eco scumreading him as any alignment. So. Yeah.
@Proph
I mean tunneled or not is irrelevant, if Dota continues to play like this
As Eco said, "You're not really playing like the person at the bottom of the PoE the day before the deadline. Do you have counter-arguments or alternatives? Or are you going to carry on just plodding around doing your own narrow thing ignoring the situation until you die?"
I like how we basically have the same read of Killjoy, except I want to chuck him off the cliff, and if he is town here, this dude has spent the entirety of this game, basically making hot takes that don't align with many of his previous thoughts as well, has logic that makes 0 sense. His read on DV day 1, and then his complete flip flop on that read. His question to Dota, his continued evaluation of me, the fact that we are almost at the end of day 2, and he is still hedging almost everyone. But yes I agree with ur reasonings for liking him, which are literally the only reasons to like him, since his content and progression is piss poor.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy - You made a post reading solely Cantrip's 12 posts. Eco has shown up and posted nearly double the amount of posts. What do you think about Eco's posts while keeping in mind your original read of Cantrip?
I guess if KJ actually believes that there is a scum in the high posters, and he re-evaluated Wisp, then he could see me as scum, but he's also lacking any sort of reasoning to indicate that's the case besides his half-baked theory. His progression is still bizarre though.
Yeah there's gonna be SOME, but not TOO MUCH is my point.
Yeah there's a poE today of me. Eco and DotA have scum. That doesn't mean that that pool is all town, it likely just means that the scum isn't a high priority in it.
The scum would think in that case that they can survive the Day if we yeet the scummiest of those players. I'm guessing it's probably Eco if DotA is being so heavily pushed for (unless there's some bussing going on)
Okay but that line of thought doesn't mesh with you finding Wisp to be a bit scummy. Because if Dota is being pushed as the fall guy then it isn't scum making that push. I guess Wisp is technically on Dota but he's much more interested in pushing you. Build a team for me. If someone in that pool isn't a high priority and there is a deep wolf what is happening? Just stating that idea and not chasing it down isn't a town thought. It's the appearance of trying to think holistically about the game without actually doing it.
I asked Proph because he has a very strong read that caused a total change in heart, so he's the one I want to explain what I can't see. Who else is actually hard townreading Wisp? My actual read on Wisp is that he's done a lot of things I don't like (even just now #942/3 is such a huge overreaction to being called possible scum), but my top-town-guy Proph is absolutely convinced Wisp is town with meta reasons which justify a lot of Wisp's actions.
Okay that makes sense. Proph probably has the strongest active town read on him. Echoing Proph that I'd be curious what you thought of his scum game in Tarot Mafia if you have time, it's similarly short thoughts early but does some longer stuff later on that isn't purely defensive like you're describing. I don't know if it changes much but it's familiar to me and I'm a lazy, self centered, entitled type of guy and I'm curious what you think of it.
When I was rereading I noticed the team building and made the note to keep track of his reads, since DV flipped town and I know I'm town, he was obviously fooled by someone into thinking they're town. Was a note to self to keep track of how his reads developed from that point.
Okay and how did they develop from there? What did you gain from monitoring his leads? Or what were you hoping to glean?
@Proph I know you hate using that argument because it's just so varied. I've used it a few times this game myself to try and sort people but taking it too far leads to questioning why scum ever change their reads at all or do anything but push consensus reads. In this particular case I can see a few reasons why scum you might flip on me. Best one is that you don't need to fight me. With 7 alive you only need 2 misses. There are softer targets available than me and letting me tunnel away unconvincingly doesn't put you under any threat. And reversing course might cause me to reevaluate and work on the PoE with you. It could be you reevaluating the EoD but there is enough plausible tactical advantage that I can't completely write you off for it.
ur right, you only need 2 more, wolf!Proph would have needed 3 from day 1
but you know what, you can never account for how people adapt and changed especially since a lot of people start to really get going after day 2 starts. So every misyeet he prevents, it makes his win con harder.
and the best part about this is, IF EVERYONE PLAYS THE GAME, PRE-PLANING YOUR PUSHES FROM DAY 1 ONWARDS, ISN'T NECESSARILY THAT EZ
Axel is never under pressure today. His ISO's have been pretty agendaless and have shown a sort of progression. It's lacking the curiosity that would lock the read in to ride or die but it's at the place where I wouldn't reevaluate him before a F3.
Wisp is just a bit below this for me. He's been mostly himself bouncing around and inconsistent with reads. The only time where there was any whiff of an agenda was at the EoD1 but that's gone again D2 and I'm currently happy to slot him into town.
Grapefruit21
Axelrod
LastWhisper
KJ
Prophylaxis
DOTArchon
Ecophagy
Proph just keeps coming back to scum for me. There just is an undercurrent of agenda to a lot of what he's doing. The Osie clear and urging to reveal the identity. The utterly bizarre in retrospect scum read and reversal on DV. The super eager to kill me to being more or less fine with me on D2. The complete focus on Dota before the last couple of hours. Just feels like he's pushing the game where he wants it to be rather than following what he's reading.
As a result I don't want Dota to die. Proph is absolutely trying to get him killed. He is clearly the dedicated condemn today and we should not kill him. He's been an absolute wet noodle but he's not scum with Proph and Proph is scum here.
That leaves Eco and KJ. Going to sort them. Eco has made a good inital impression on me but not enough to really get anywhere yet. KJ deciding to try and push Wisp in his 1 active wolf 1 lurking wolf theory is definitely standing out to me right about now.
ur right, you only need 2 more, wolf!Proph would have needed 3 from day 1
but you know what, you can never account for how people adapt and changed especially since a lot of people start to really get going after day 2 starts. So every misyeet he prevents, it makes his win con harder.
and the best part about this is, IF EVERYONE PLAYS THE GAME, PRE-PLANING YOUR PUSHES FROM DAY 1 ONWARDS, ISN'T NECESSARILY THAT EZ
I mean that's my point. It's why him changing his mind on me isn't clearing evidence on it's own. Not when paired with everything else.
Proph just keeps coming back to scum for me. There just is an undercurrent of agenda to a lot of what he's doing. The Osie clear and urging to reveal the identity. The utterly bizarre in retrospect scum read and reversal on DV. The super eager to kill me to being more or less fine with me on D2. The complete focus on Dota before the last couple of hours. Just feels like he's pushing the game where he wants it to be rather than following what he's reading.
Explain how any of this comes from a mafia mindset, and explain the agenda I'm trying to drive rather than saying there's an "undercurrent of agenda".
I was townreading Osie behaviorally, which was why I cleared him and was very vocal about not wanting him mislunched throughout the entirety of Day 1. I wanted him to reveal his identity because I thought it was gross from a game integrity standpoint that I knew his identity but several others in the game didn't.
I was scumreading DV because I thought that he was trying to chain a mislunch. I re-evaluated him to town because I spent a long time arguing him the Day of the deadline, and I have found that people that press my buttons generally are town.
I wanted to kill you on Day 1 because I thought you were a wolf who was hoping to chain a GJ mislunch into a mislunch on me. Your floaty indecision posts on Day 2 caused me to re-evaluate this read.
DoTA is struggling to produce content and integrate himself into the game thread. He's at the bottom of the PoE for me and for most others.
How does any of that scream like I have some sort of underlying plan going on? I'm trying my hardest to poke and prod at others to try and solve. My scum game generally involves a *****ton of bussing and passiveness.
Grape, what does your scum team look like if I get randomly confirmed town? What's your solve at that point?
vote: Killjoy
I really don't want to solve this F5 if Proph is town and I don't die. I will acknowledge that Eco is a lot better now that he posted.
But I'd rather vote in the person that could be his partner if that's the case, which is easily Killjoy.
Talking about wolves controlling the game is just a narrative that doesn't have any proof, unless he is a wolf who specifically knows his partner is doing that, which would make the team Proph/Killjoy
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment that the game isn't like that. There is broad consensus that Axel, Wisp, and Proph are townie (I'm a lone voice yelling against Proph. Wisp occasionally agrees with me but doesn't want to act on it first). There is broad consensus that the pool of Eco, you, and Dota contains at least one scum. D1 was pretty consensus'y on Osie/GJ right up till the end and still went back to it.
What makes you think that this game doesn't have consensus when Dota has been at majority -2 multiple times today and has m-1 in spirit from Proph?
And no I'm not trying to see you as town. That's now how I'm playing the game. Sorry if that method doesn't mesh with how you would like others to play mafia.
I'm not seeing why you think I should see you as e facto town and why Axel should be completely eliminated from the PoE. I never fully eliminate people from the PoE unless there's mechanics involved because nonmechanical stuff is highly subjective.
Yeah there's a poE today of me. Eco and DotA have scum. That doesn't mean that that pool is all town, it likely just means that the scum isn't a high priority in it.
The scum would think in that case that they can survive the Day if we yeet the scummiest of those players. I'm guessing it's probably Eco if DotA is being so heavily pushed for (unless there's some bussing going on)
Will look over this game tomorrow.
1. PM me expressing whether or not you would be interested in an extension of day of 24 hours due to Ecophagy replacing in.
2. Are weekends just horrible for everyone? Because I'm considering restructuring the day cycle so day will take place Monday-Friday, with Saturday and Sunday being night. Let me know.
As for vote count:
Current vote count (as of Post #956):
DOTArchon - 1 (Ecophagy)
Killjoy - 1 (LastWhisper)
I asked Proph because he has a very strong read that caused a total change in heart, so he's the one I want to explain what I can't see. Who else is actually hard townreading Wisp? My actual read on Wisp is that he's done a lot of things I don't like (even just now #942/3 is such a huge overreaction to being called possible scum), but my top-town-guy Proph is absolutely convinced Wisp is town with meta reasons which justify a lot of Wisp's actions.
Speaking of KJ, I want to give #941 town points for looking at the game holistically and ending up with some...unusual reads. But the logic is really flimsy (as Grape has already pointed out) and it's missing the possible scenario that the mafia are all in the PoE and can't post enough to get out. Probably because the most likely team in that case is DoTA and KJ. So if KJ really believes that the game state means there's mafia in Proph/LW/Axelrod then I would really like to see some research to work out which one rather than picking softest option LW out of a hat. An option that KJ is immediately backing down from in the face of conflict.
Proph is only still in the PoE because of his mannerisms, and maybe his early read of Osie. But that's about it, I do not think anyone is controlling the game, half the player list is playing at their own pace, which gives off the vibe that mafia may like the game state.
Both you and killjoy with your jabs can be seen as shade since you aren't putting almost any words behind your wolf reads. That is one of the strongest reasons to hate both of you
I did mention some in #891, but to repeat myself: I think your early game was defensive and you've made sure we know how relaxed you are. You've spent the whole game very vocally being unsure of Proph's alignment but have voted alongside/agreed with him pretty consistently. #230 you tried to focus the game on "low poster" just after Proph cased you. Holding out for this "game" has been a great stalling tactic. This recent overreaction to KJ calling you possible scum was really scummy, and now you're dumping on me for the same reason.
There have been town things as well and maybe this is just meta or something which is why I'm asking Proph and why I'm going to slog through the games he linked this evening. But you can't act like you're some paragon of town behaviour and shoot your vote at anyone who looks at you funny and expect no reaction.
If you don't think I put words behind my reads you have another thing coming boyo.
Also being defensive is inherently townie for me, but I won't fight u on that because have less experience with me.
Being defensive is NAI for DV and townie for me. It's irrelevant outside context
Scenario 1 (What was asked): KJ is asking how I went from a townlean on Cross/Osie to a scumread of GJ. I never had a townlean on Crossbell so where is he getting that from?
Scenario 2 (What you suspect he meant to ask): How do I get from a townlean on Axel to a scumread of GJ? Why would KJ ask this, and how would he confuse Cross/Osie for Axel?
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
When I was rereading I noticed the team building and made the note to keep track of his reads, since DV flipped town and I know I'm town, he was obviously fooled by someone into thinking they're town. Was a note to self to keep track of how his reads developed from that point.
Starting with the mafia game on Throne of Lies, the playstyle was pretty clear. LW's posts were really short (one-whole-sentence-at-best short). He made reads (some town, some mafia) but they were kind of just thrown out there with viurtually no reasoning. He voted very rarely (but did want a lot of votecounts), and when he did he made it seem like he was being forced to by others not voting correctly (possibly at deadlines? Game context is really hard to get on that site) rather than proactively. He made two big posts (3937 and 3941) which were both quote walls defending himself from attack - his tone in them was very relaxed and using rhetorical questions in defence rather than seeking conflict.
So that game makes for a pretty obvious scum meta right? Short sharp posts, hard reads with no reasons, rare and reluctant voting. Big posts in self-defence, but no real interest in conflict.
Compared to Ballade des Dames du Temps Jadis and the difference is pretty stark. The posts are on average much longer and give a lot more insight into Wisp's thoughts - a lot more reasons and worldbuilding. No all that much voting, but the usage was more proactive. He also didn't get attacked that much, but when he did (by Gorta) he was much more confrontational and counter voted (it must be noted, incorrectly).
Coming then to this game, and LW's play is clearly much more like his town play. His posts are pretty meaty, he's got real reads, voting proactively, and he's leaning in to confrontation when challenged. In fact, I would say pretty much all of these traits are more amplified here - he's voting more, responding more aggressively to being suspected, thinking more about his reads out loud. If I squint, I can see scum!LW being aware of what his town meta is and really pushing to emulate it and ending up going over the top. But if that is truly the case then he's somehow able to play his town meta by removing even more of a filter and posting rawer thoughts and being more confrontational, which is basically the hardest thing for someone to do as scum, especially if their natural scum meta is to clam up.
Ultimately I get a lot more of what Proph was talking about now - scum LW would find it very difficult to be posting as much content about his internal process as he has been, even if I disagree with the conclusions or other actions. I think there's still someone to be gained by trying to look at the underlying mindset behind some of the reads (in particular contradictions or convenient/tactical reads) in case LW is somehow overcompensating their town act. But that probably requires some more flips, and the meta argument is definitely convincing enough that I don't see the need to dig deeper unless I actually have to.
And I've just been wondering if this gamesize will produce good VCA honestly. It's what I normally gravitate to but this game is really small and has much less info.
I'll still try it, but I'm wondering if it won't produce much.
Am I pocketing you better than Proph? We have a competition in scumchat
Your actions are all just disconnected and it's hard to not see them as doing Things To Look Town as opposed to trying to solve the game by using your tools together.
Be prepared for your daily dose of Proph milquetoastness.
As for the change of tone from EoD: EoD, I was absolutely convinced that GJ was town, and that you were mafia pushing for his mislunch. Today, I think that you might be town (and that I was wrong) and I want to focus on DoTA, who has been pretty detached from everything going on inside the thread thus far.
I hate using this argument, but I want to invoke it anyways. Grape, what mafia motivation do I have to pivot off of you Day 2 as opposed to continuing my tunnel from Day 1? Do you believe that I am focusing on DoTA today and then putting you on the backburner to be a possible lunch in my/lylo?
Why do you think there is a mafia in the high posters, if you don't believe that the game is overly dominated by scum?
What does this statement even mean?
"I feel like Axel is too passive to be the lead scum." implies that you don't think he is the "lead scum". Then you say that he's making a lot of big opinion posts but isn't pushing anywhere and that he hasn't been proactive, so you think that he "could be scum". What do you mean by all of this? And if you think Axel is mafia, why aren't you pushing or interrogating him?
Do you have any behavioral evidence to base this off of, or is it just all working off of your theory that the scum "need to have a leader"?
Man, was that really Axel's last scum game? It's from 2013!
I read it anyway, Axel's mafia game early was characterised by going after LHF (Guardman for being weird, Iso for lying, Kpaca for being belligerent) and kind of just focusing on one person/thing at a time. His posts were still pretty big, but tended to be "agenda-y" in that they were dealing with fairly narrow events and driving towards getting his target dead - rather than a meandering look back at figuring a person out. To be fair though, I think his posts look roughly like they would look if Town Axel saw something he really hated and wanted to get executed, just with more tunnel vision. His play there is very different to his play here, but since it was 8 freaking years ago that's not really unexpected.
So, not really all that useful. But a very fun blast from the past, lots of memories. God I am a dinosaur.
Most of the people from the Forum of Lies game had like 1-2 years of experience and I was like "here I am, an ancient skeleton"
We can't really beat Axel in terms of dinosaur-ness though. 16+ years spent on MTGS is absolute insanity.
Why is it unlikely, after you spent your last post mapping out worlds where Axel could be mafia?
I think both of the scum are in the low posters because I've done a lot of behavioral and mindset analysis that makes me think that both Axel and Wisp are town. Unless I have solid reason to suspect one of them is snowing me, I'm just gonna trust in my handy Occam's Razor and blow past the scum.
I think Axel professed to a early townread on Wisp, but this was early page 1 stuff. The Axelrod of now may view things differently. I still have a strong townread on Wisp, and I see that you actually did the legwork on the meta-checking, so let me get to that in a bit.
This is amusing to read, given how Wisp reacted to me calling him a wolf early game.
play my game
/barn
----
I still want DoTA dead. Kind of paranoid of a world where he ends up flipping town but he's not really giving us a whole lot. Again, I feel bad about his RL issues, but he is not using his time in-thread in a productive way I feel.
Eco has really good posts, and he's methodical and probing, just as what I'd expect of him. I also think, however, that Eco has the strongest scumgame out of everyone in this game, and I still haven't seen a whole lot from him that I think would be unfakeable or hard to fake for him as scum. So I am going to continue monitoring him for now. I liked the reach-out to me regarding the Wisp read, and I liked how he actually read the game I linked and he changed his opinion based on it. It's just that I don't know if that type of behavior is actually difficult for him to fake as scum.
KJ's last string of posts have been objectively poor, but I am still not sure if he does this if he's mafia. Random evaluations of the gamestate and leaps in logic are weird coming from him, but I don't really see an overarching maliciousness or attempt to steer the game towards a grander agenda. I would like him to answer my questions though.
Gun to head, Grape is still likely town to me, but his pressure on me wavers from "I think he's town because of it" to "he's trying to probably discredit me" depending on the day. The thing I am choosing to stake my read on his alignment is is that I don't think Grape has the balls to come after me if he's a wolf here and I'm hyperposting town, especially after I amped it up at EoD. I feel like wolf Grape would struggle to overcome the TMI he would have as a wolf and he try to maybe pivot off of me rather than continuously get stuck on me.
tldr, gun to head: I'm still at DoTA/Eco, and I'm buying into the narrative that Eco is replacing into a sunk scum team and is trying to turn it around by going for the hard bus on his slanking teammate and then trying to take the towncred from that into lylo. It's like the only move he has as scum. Problem with that interpretation though is that DoTA has been so underwhelming I can see Eco scumreading him as any alignment. So. Yeah.
I mean tunneled or not is irrelevant, if Dota continues to play like this
As Eco said, "You're not really playing like the person at the bottom of the PoE the day before the deadline. Do you have counter-arguments or alternatives? Or are you going to carry on just plodding around doing your own narrow thing ignoring the situation until you die?"
I like how we basically have the same read of Killjoy, except I want to chuck him off the cliff, and if he is town here, this dude has spent the entirety of this game, basically making hot takes that don't align with many of his previous thoughts as well, has logic that makes 0 sense. His read on DV day 1, and then his complete flip flop on that read. His question to Dota, his continued evaluation of me, the fact that we are almost at the end of day 2, and he is still hedging almost everyone. But yes I agree with ur reasonings for liking him, which are literally the only reasons to like him, since his content and progression is piss poor.
I guess Proph wolf, wisp town, grape town, axel town, dota town eco scum.
Day ends tomorrow right?
I guess if KJ actually believes that there is a scum in the high posters, and he re-evaluated Wisp, then he could see me as scum, but he's also lacking any sort of reasoning to indicate that's the case besides his half-baked theory. His progression is still bizarre though.
Okay but that line of thought doesn't mesh with you finding Wisp to be a bit scummy. Because if Dota is being pushed as the fall guy then it isn't scum making that push. I guess Wisp is technically on Dota but he's much more interested in pushing you. Build a team for me. If someone in that pool isn't a high priority and there is a deep wolf what is happening? Just stating that idea and not chasing it down isn't a town thought. It's the appearance of trying to think holistically about the game without actually doing it.
Okay that makes sense. Proph probably has the strongest active town read on him. Echoing Proph that I'd be curious what you thought of his scum game in Tarot Mafia if you have time, it's similarly short thoughts early but does some longer stuff later on that isn't purely defensive like you're describing. I don't know if it changes much but it's familiar to me and I'm a lazy, self centered, entitled type of guy and I'm curious what you think of it.
Okay and how did they develop from there? What did you gain from monitoring his leads? Or what were you hoping to glean?
@Proph I know you hate using that argument because it's just so varied. I've used it a few times this game myself to try and sort people but taking it too far leads to questioning why scum ever change their reads at all or do anything but push consensus reads. In this particular case I can see a few reasons why scum you might flip on me. Best one is that you don't need to fight me. With 7 alive you only need 2 misses. There are softer targets available than me and letting me tunnel away unconvincingly doesn't put you under any threat. And reversing course might cause me to reevaluate and work on the PoE with you. It could be you reevaluating the EoD but there is enough plausible tactical advantage that I can't completely write you off for it.
but you know what, you can never account for how people adapt and changed especially since a lot of people start to really get going after day 2 starts. So every misyeet he prevents, it makes his win con harder.
and the best part about this is, IF EVERYONE PLAYS THE GAME, PRE-PLANING YOUR PUSHES FROM DAY 1 ONWARDS, ISN'T NECESSARILY THAT EZ
Axelrod
KJ
Prophylaxis
LastWhisper
DOTArchon
Ecophagy
I'm town.
Axel is never under pressure today. His ISO's have been pretty agendaless and have shown a sort of progression. It's lacking the curiosity that would lock the read in to ride or die but it's at the place where I wouldn't reevaluate him before a F3.
Wisp is just a bit below this for me. He's been mostly himself bouncing around and inconsistent with reads. The only time where there was any whiff of an agenda was at the EoD1 but that's gone again D2 and I'm currently happy to slot him into town.
Grapefruit21
Axelrod
LastWhisper
KJ
Prophylaxis
DOTArchon
Ecophagy
Proph just keeps coming back to scum for me. There just is an undercurrent of agenda to a lot of what he's doing. The Osie clear and urging to reveal the identity. The utterly bizarre in retrospect scum read and reversal on DV. The super eager to kill me to being more or less fine with me on D2. The complete focus on Dota before the last couple of hours. Just feels like he's pushing the game where he wants it to be rather than following what he's reading.
As a result I don't want Dota to die. Proph is absolutely trying to get him killed. He is clearly the dedicated condemn today and we should not kill him. He's been an absolute wet noodle but he's not scum with Proph and Proph is scum here.
That leaves Eco and KJ. Going to sort them. Eco has made a good inital impression on me but not enough to really get anywhere yet. KJ deciding to try and push Wisp in his 1 active wolf 1 lurking wolf theory is definitely standing out to me right about now.
Grapefruit21
Axelrod
LastWhisper
DOTArchon
Ecophagy
KJ
Prophylaxis
Vote: Proph
I mean that's my point. It's why him changing his mind on me isn't clearing evidence on it's own. Not when paired with everything else.
I was townreading Osie behaviorally, which was why I cleared him and was very vocal about not wanting him mislunched throughout the entirety of Day 1. I wanted him to reveal his identity because I thought it was gross from a game integrity standpoint that I knew his identity but several others in the game didn't.
I was scumreading DV because I thought that he was trying to chain a mislunch. I re-evaluated him to town because I spent a long time arguing him the Day of the deadline, and I have found that people that press my buttons generally are town.
I wanted to kill you on Day 1 because I thought you were a wolf who was hoping to chain a GJ mislunch into a mislunch on me. Your floaty indecision posts on Day 2 caused me to re-evaluate this read.
DoTA is struggling to produce content and integrate himself into the game thread. He's at the bottom of the PoE for me and for most others.
How does any of that scream like I have some sort of underlying plan going on? I'm trying my hardest to poke and prod at others to try and solve. My scum game generally involves a *****ton of bussing and passiveness.
Grape, what does your scum team look like if I get randomly confirmed town? What's your solve at that point?
I really don't want to solve this F5 if Proph is town and I don't die. I will acknowledge that Eco is a lot better now that he posted.
But I'd rather vote in the person that could be his partner if that's the case, which is easily Killjoy.
Talking about wolves controlling the game is just a narrative that doesn't have any proof, unless he is a wolf who specifically knows his partner is doing that, which would make the team Proph/Killjoy