ZDS is arguing that I’ve been priming myself to bus both of my buddies just to get one villager killed? So what, I can endgame? That is a terrible take. Not to mention that using Daylight to work on my weakest scumread is something I find more productive than sitting on Highroller or Ecophagy.
As for Rhand’s claim, it doesn’t really do anything from me.
I only bus buddies when I struggle for content or when I think they look bad. I distanced from ZDS in PBII because he was very inactive Day 1, and then I flipped it to a townread once he dug his roots into the game.
TerRaine I don’t remember, I think I either gave her a bland townread or kept her at null.
ZDS’ hypothetical Lagoon/Ecophagy/Highroller team is bad because I don’t want to endgame, Ecophagy isn’t lurking or playing badly or under a ton of pressure, Highroller has been getting meta passes, and the only way I would believe ZDS believes it’s a viable team is if he just came out of a coma with total amnesia. A scumteam made of the three of us would sweep.
Calm your vagoo, that link falls appart if at least one of Eco or HR is town, and even if they are both woofs it does not justify executing you. Don't get all frantic like you are already seeing the grim reaper.
... unless you really are seeing the grim reaper, I guess.
Also: "Eco isn't [...] under a ton of pressure"
(Well, I guess Rhand is still more likely to die as of right now, but hopefully that will change before deadline)
———
Side note, if Eco flips scum I will be 4 out of 5 at making my first serious vote in a game on scum (since my return from hiatus and obviously not counting my one scum game).
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
The swipe was at me offering mitigation for TerRain's scummy behaviour, it wasn't a scum read on me at all. He's implicitly defending me by attacking my attacke and making similar scum reads as me. He hasn't outright said he thinks I'm town, but he certainly doesn't want me dead.
Quote from ZDS »
2) Highroller would have been scum had he tried to pocket Eco. Highroller doing things that happen to pocket Eco makes Eco trust him more.
The whole point of pocketing is that it's to try and get someone to trust you. He could be doing it maliciously to gain my trust, which is why it's not a strong town read (although I don't see why he'd want my trust specifically), but that doesn't mean it's not things I like to hear.
Quote from ZDS »
3) If anyone can find where in the first quote he townreads HR for his scumread on Ter, let me know.
Does literally everything need to be absolutely explicit? Is it that unusal to think someone with similar reads as you might be town?
This is a lot of guff to give me for a read that's fluctating between "not enough information for a read" and "what he has looks kind of towny". If you think it's inconsistent, well, that's because it's not a nailed down read by any stretch of the imagination and I don't think I've ever claimed it was. I naturally lean towards town on him because he's in my corner (or at least the enemy of my enemy), but there isn't really enough content to be firm on a conclusion.
I know you're having a lot of trouble with me here and you're going to be angry at me post-game. But for someone who is so aware of the evils of confirmation bias you could really do taking a step back - instead of deciding that it is inconceivable that I am town and just constructing a scum read based on that assumption.
On Rhand I find his level of play this game frusateing they is little real scum hunting. They is a lot of complaints and being over defensive though. He starts off with a early defend of Eco,to Ter which is one of the more consistent parts of his play. After that he mainly complains about nothing happening and wants others to do his work for him.
Wants others to do my work for me? Where did you get that idea from?
I honestly expect a lot more I'm not the best at this, but I was able to give early thoughts off little content. Which I get attacked for because he thinks I have to many scum reads so early. Which is a bit insane to me since in my mind everyone starts off null then goes up and down. I like to try and make a small town core for day one to help me narrow down a POE which I did. His critic of this feels like he wants no scum hunting and game not to move forward.
I can’t find anything that triggers me and in you come with a list where you have suspicions on half the game. Yes, that’s suspicious.
I see him as overly defensive to Eco when they tell him he had to do things not just complain. I found his reaction to being voted as a bit nervous, even though he calls them naked votes. It feels a bit like a failed gambit telling people to vote him but never expecting them to.
It’s frustration you were seeing there. I was frustrated that I couldn’t get a grip.
I did expect people to vote me. I just expected content with the votes, and there wasn’t any.
Next we have his main and only real scum hunting which is weak imo but perhaps I'm biased because of my own Lagoon view. I feel like he was trying to hard to force a world narrative that Lagoon has TMI in his town reads on Axel me and ZDS. Which bothers me because of the whole town core thing day one I said before.
I don’t understand at all what you’re saying here.
The whole buddy buddy thing over axel copying Lagoon readlist but no buddy would do that anyway is weird and a contradiction since he sees them as buddies but not at the same time.
Buddying =/= calling people buddies.
I'm not sure why Ter is so low in his readlist,since he never talks about them. Sloth turns into one of his main side pushs but is null in his early read list so feels a bit forced. I also feel like he has Lagoon so low for petty reasons and being forced onto voting him because of their conflict rather then actual belief Lagoon is scum. His constant linking with Axel is also strange.
I am not linking with Axel. Are you even reading my posts?
He tries to fix sone of this in his 429 to Eco which tbh feels like a big pocket attempt and trying to nudge Eco to vote with him on me to a degree. The whole last part about ego scum read them being paranoia and the back down on Vaimes feels like appeasement rather then his own beliefs because he knows how much danger he is in .
What so I’m pocketing Eco by taking back my town lean on him? How does that work?
We also have a whole thing at one point when Sloth and Eco are leading wagons that he would vote Sloth because he thinks Eco wagon is unpure which is pointed at Axel and lagon at the time. My main issue here is his reason for Sloth over Eco should be because he sees Eco as town like his readlist shows, the other reason used here feels like he forgot his townread and just trying to force the Lagoon Axel narrative again.
Terraine was on that Eco wagon too.
I didn’t “forget” my Eco read. But you’re making it stronger than it was. I gave a list full of leans. I wasn’t sold on anything.
Overall he is missing a wider picture and seems too focused on Lagoon and Axel not because he scum reads them but more he is forced to. This is also not townie because he is not compromisein on a execute . He is just trying to force a agenda while appeasing others and lacking consistency in reads out of those 2. He clearly sees me as bad but never fully pushs it but keeps, it more as a backup option. He knows others feel the same and can use it to save himself. His recent push on Sloth feels in a similar Vein not scum hunting more having escape plans. A push on Ter and Axel has never really happened off him either. He just mentions Axel a lot and like said before not sure why Ter low.
Yes I was forced by Lagoon to keep talking about Lagoon and Axel. And I do scumread Lagoon. Why are you assuming I’m not? Axel… I don’t know. Definitely not with Lagoon.
Not compromising on an execute you say? Your last bit was about me compromising on Sloth.
I’m keeping my eye on Ter, but she’s definitely not someone I want to lynch toDay. Sloth hasn’t posted anything but fluff. He can die.
I also find how he light defends Igno and HR early and giving them free passes compared to Sloth weird also but I know that is my biased coming through lol.
Igno and HR were null early game. When I see someone push something that is NAI, I will say so.
So like I said before he is the right choice,today because lack of scum hunting more self pres options and a lack of consistency at times.
What you wrote here consists for the largest part of you misreading my posts and misrepresenting my thoughts.
It looks to me like you were indifferent toward Rhand's wagon in facor of something happening, then you agreed with ZDS that he might be town for a reason, then one of your scumreads made points about them being scum (which didn't appear to affect your read on that scumread) now you're scumreading Rhand because of the points HR made plus a whole bunch more that weren't hinted at before 569, and now you're hardreading him over Igno and HR for reasons.
Just because I'm scumreading someone I'm not going to ignore their posts because like I just said I can be wrong, it was a good point by HR one of the only ones I think he had. It bothers me how he has not done anything with it though and just stays on Ter.
On the first point I'm indifferent because that is early in the day, and nothing has happened and it got things moving like we all were. I don't think anyone should be seriously committed to a wagon that early, this game has a lot of moving parts and people. I semi agreed with ZDS yet again this is early in the day before Rhand did anything really wrong. He was on the lower end for me sure from memory but not done enough for me to commit to a full scum read,. The 2nd part of D is the reference to me going to do something from my Notes On Rhand which I did in 569.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day. HR and Igno also lack heavily in content so semi giving them both a pass for today to see if tomorrow brings better content. I can't get a execute on someone in this game by myself. So I'm going to go with the one who has the most scummy content which Rhand does compared to the other 2 and also the one who is least likely to succeed. Igno and HR are tunnels/ gut reads. Rhand is the one that comes with most damning evidence and also the one that my bigger town reads also agree with. So they are multiple factors that make them the right choice today for me.
The bolded: go back to HR's post, look at what he wrote, look at my reaction to that and later WATCH HIM APOLOGISE FOR HIS MISTAKE.
Seriously, what the ****?
You based your whole read on me on a mistake and then you make a big ass post full of misreps.
It looks to me like you were indifferent toward Rhand's wagon in facor of something happening, then you agreed with ZDS that he might be town for a reason, then one of your scumreads made points about them being scum (which didn't appear to affect your read on that scumread) now you're scumreading Rhand because of the points HR made plus a whole bunch more that weren't hinted at before 569, and now you're hardreading him over Igno and HR for reasons.
Just because I'm scumreading someone I'm not going to ignore their posts because like I just said I can be wrong, it was a good point by HR one of the only ones I think he had. It bothers me how he has not done anything with it though and just stays on Ter.
On the first point I'm indifferent because that is early in the day, and nothing has happened and it got things moving like we all were. I don't think anyone should be seriously committed to a wagon that early, this game has a lot of moving parts and people. I semi agreed with ZDS yet again this is early in the day before Rhand did anything really wrong. He was on the lower end for me sure from memory but not done enough for me to commit to a full scum read,. The 2nd part of D is the reference to me going to do something from my Notes On Rhand which I did in 569.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day. HR and Igno also lack heavily in content so semi giving them both a pass for today to see if tomorrow brings better content. I can't get a execute on someone in this game by myself. So I'm going to go with the one who has the most scummy content which Rhand does compared to the other 2 and also the one who is least likely to succeed. Igno and HR are tunnels/ gut reads. Rhand is the one that comes with most damning evidence and also the one that my bigger town reads also agree with. So they are multiple factors that make them the right choice today for me.
The bolded: go back to HR's post, look at what he wrote, look at my reaction to that and later WATCH HIM APOLOGISE FOR HIS MISTAKE.
Seriously, what the ****?
You based your whole read on me on a mistake and then you make a big ass post full of misreps.
This is true just double checked, I missed the mistake and his apology, my bad there it just puts him more down my list and more reason to pressure him. My whole read on you is not based on that one thing either, really not sure why so many people just say my reads are based off one thing only.
I stand by the rest of my big post you can't just throw it away as me mis rep you.In the early game you were doing nothing but complain and you did link Axel and Lagoon together your main push on Axel appears to be because of him copying Lagoon. Lagoon himself had a big argument with you about this. Your vote on Sloth and Lagoon do not feel like scum hunting more just being forced into one and the other being LHF.
ON that note actually Sloth really did not perform in the last 2 days like he said he would so that does put him down a bit for me, since my tr for him is for dumb reasons and only goes so far.
I'm willing to back off you though because your role should be provable and it also makes you a good NK option for scum, I dont want to do their work for them if you are telling the truth. I'm not stubborn enough to execute someone when they can prove themselves. I still think you have scum equity but willing to go elsewhere for today because your claim gives me enough reason to back off.
This puts me in a bad spot with the heat coming my way but I'm doing this all the same.
The play here now for myself should be Voting Eco, but I just don't really see them as scum, even though 2 of my top town reads do. I don't want to vote someone just to save myself its just not the type of player I am. I want to kill someone because I believe they are scum not because I'm forced to. I need time to think about this since my other scum reads are not happening today, and the one that is should be provable if real or not.
...Unrelated to game play but if Rhand's being truthful I DO question the mod logic in Robocop being a "Feel good"movie from the 80s
Man, I would love it if that was a thing. That is the kind of thing that I would do if I was designing this game.
But my issue there is that, if the Mafia were "themed" in some way - like all Horror movies or R-rated movies, or other decidedly not-feelgood - feels like the Mod. would be obligated to give them "safe" claims of some kind. So they couldn't all be busted by a D1 mass movie claim. Which would kind of invalidate Robocop being a tell.
My movie is totally feelgood, however, so I am perfectly on theme.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
...I guess mine is feel good? In a at moments terrifying and others ugly crying sort of way....
E.T.?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
FWIW mine isn't really a "feel good" movie either.
Well, yours wouldn't be, would it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
[quote from="Rhand »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/820307-feelgood-80s-movie-mafia-day-1-a-galaxy-very-very?comment=657"][quote from="Jackrito »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/820307-feelgood-80s-movie-mafia-day-1-a-galaxy-very-very?comment=601"][quote from="Killjoy »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/820307-feelgood-80s-movie-mafia-day-1-a-galaxy-very-very?comment=598"]
This is true just double checked, I missed the mistake and his apology, my bad there it just puts him more down my list and more reason to pressure him. My whole read on you is not based on that one thing either, really not sure why so many people just say my reads are based off one thing only.
I stand by the rest of my big post you can't just throw it away as me mis rep you.In the early game you were doing nothing but complain and you did link Axel and Lagoon together your main push on Axel appears to be because of him copying Lagoon. Lagoon himself had a big argument with you about this. Your vote on Sloth and Lagoon do not feel like scum hunting more just being forced into one and the other being LHF.
I did not do the bolded. It's the opposite: I said they're not together from the start. You're completely misreading that argument. It's about me thinking they are NOT together and still having them both as scum leans.
About Sloth: how do you hunt someone that isn't here? He doesn't even respond to things asked from him.
Lagoon... make of that what you wish. I still think he's a hit.
@Eco: TBH I was hoping for a pat on the back having caught Jack. The read on Rhand appeared from nowhere, and like I said, Rhand might be scum, but Jack def is for the gymnastics needed to justify that vote on Rhand. I'd rather got for the sure thing.
I remember Jack in Prison Block, and his posting had very clear, if rambly thinking behind it.
But talk to me about 625. You (should be) currently scumreading Jack, and you think Rhand is scum. Wouldn't flipping onto Rhand when Rhand wasn't very high in his PoE be exactly what scum!Jack would do?
@ZDS: It could be both bussing and opportunistic though. Jack would have been tracking buddy!Rhand's transgressions and when the tide was impossibly out of favor he cobbles them together in a scumread and votes.
Also AFAICT he was very lightly scumreading him up until 569. I outlined his whole progression in 592, do you disagree with that?
Were you townreading Jack prior to this? Refresh my memory.
@Vaimes: How significantly would my interrogation change him though? I would expect a similar naturalness to come from him even during that. A casualness perhaps?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
All right, KJ, I'm going to really read that Jack stuff. But it is hard for me to imagine moving my vote there at this point.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy: #625 was mostly based on me misreading #563 as Jack's scum list and being completely baffled. Scum Jack flipping onto Rhand would be a very reasonable play, sure. But he has passed up the opportunity to make other reasonable scum plays (e.g. he has passed on Axelrod, and he's still calling me town), and he's bailed on Rhand again. I don't really think Jackrito's progression on Rhand requires a lot of gymnastics, there's just a bit missing - but he never called Rhand town in the progression you posted. I think the problem is Jackrito's vote on Rhand is kind of a "only feasible wagon"-type vote rather than a strong scumread - it's more like he town reads the other possibles but does scum read Rhand even if he's not excited about it. That could come from either alignment really with how Jack has boxed his scumreads - so it would be from scum if you think it's a case of voting the only conveniant wagon. But in that case he would also be bailing on it after scrutiny, which seems like a bad play.
Quote from Killjoy »
@Eco: TBH I was hoping for a pat on the back having caught Jack.
FWIW I believe this and count it as a point in your favour.
Eco:
* I still see nothing in the Ignoramus thing. He wrongly assumed he was a total newbie, talked to him as such, realized his mistake and that’s it. The town read he got out of it should have been a NAI read, but Eco admits that it’s a weak read, which is fine for early game.
* I totally agree on his take-away from Jack’s first big post.
* The Terraine read in #286 is a humongous fence sit, but I like how he shows his thought process
* His recent stance on Jackrito is very strange and going from “I would still vote on a Jackrito wagon” to putting him in his town reads in the next post is the first thing I can not follow his thought process on.
* If I understand correctly, he’s voting me out of pure paranoia, which is a pretty bad reason to vote someone.
Reading his iso, it bugs me that he flipped his view on Jackrito. His original take-away on Jack’s post was one of the main reasons I thought he was town.
I still feel like he’s very open in explaining his thought processes, which is very hard to do as mafia.
@Eco: can you explain again why you think Jackrito is town and how you went from wanting to vote him to placing him there?
Anyone here? I'm sitting here listening to Axel talk about mafia from last years podcast.
Lets realtime.
I haven't ever actually listened to that. Do I sound like an idiot?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Eco: can you explain again why you think Jackrito is town and how you went from wanting to vote him to placing him there?
Basically I had an initial scum read for reasons already gone over. People have been asking me repeatedly to explain it, and as I go over it there isn't as much support for it as I'd like. E.g I thought his town read on me was appeasing his attacker, espeically when he said he'd let me die because his other town reads are voting me. But he has consistently doubled down on his town read of me in a way that wouldn't really make sense - the scum play would be to stick to the "I think he's town but am ok with huim dying" angle. Or just scum read me. He's deliberately cut himself off the Axel wagon, and he's even having trouble committing to the Rhand wagon despite it being an easy avenue. While his primary area of interest has been Highroller, he's not focussed solely there in the way scum like to park their vote to avoid interacting with the thread at large.
I still don't really know if I think Jack is really town (#548 was more of a tought experiment than my literal reads), but there's a lot more doubt in my mind and the initial read hasn't held too well (i.e. it was for him making thin, consesnsy reads, but he's moved beyond that now). He could be hyper-sensitive scum looking to avoid conflict because he is backing down from/wavering in positions in the face of adversity - but that could be personality too.
I think you should move your vote. I'm not going to make a lengthy defense-of-Jack post here, because I don't have him as hard town or anything, but your main issue (if I'm reading correctly) that his progression on Rhand doesn't seem natural, I disagree with. I thought it was fine.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
One of your main points seemed to be that his #569 came "out of nowhere," but he had literally said, in #540 that he had that scum-read, he just hadn't gone into detail on it yet, but had notes. Like, it was not out of nowhere.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Killjoy: #625 was mostly based on me misreading #563 as Jack's scum list and being completely baffled. Scum Jack flipping onto Rhand would be a very reasonable play, sure. But he has passed up the opportunity to make other reasonable scum plays (e.g. he has passed on Axelrod, and he's still calling me town), and he's bailed on Rhand again. I don't really think Jackrito's progression on Rhand requires a lot of gymnastics, there's just a bit missing - but he never called Rhand town in the progression you posted. I think the problem is Jackrito's vote on Rhand is kind of a "only feasible wagon"-type vote rather than a strong scumread - it's more like he town reads the other possibles but does scum read Rhand even if he's not excited about it. That could come from either alignment really with how Jack has boxed his scumreads - so it would be from scum if you think it's a case of voting the only conveniant wagon. But in that case he would also be bailing on it after scrutiny, which seems like a bad play.
Quote from Killjoy »
@Eco: TBH I was hoping for a pat on the back having caught Jack.
FWIW I believe this and count it as a point in your favour.
This bit about Jack is likely true regardless of Eco's alignment
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
The swipe was at me offering mitigation for TerRain's scummy behaviour, it wasn't a scum read on me at all. He's implicitly defending me by attacking my attacke and making similar scum reads as me. He hasn't outright said he thinks I'm town, but he certainly doesn't want me dead.
That TerRaine didn't go for the kill but instead kind of drifted off to other things looks more towny than not. Not enough to push her into the green for me, but enough that I'm thinking I might be conf biasing and I want to see more data.
We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool.
I should have checked this when you made your readslist, when it was more relevant.
You said: "I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me."
First, "We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool" hardly counts as dumping on anyone who isn't Ter.
Second, HR's goal regardless of alignment was ostensibly to counter a pro-Ter argument and reiterate his own anti-Ter argument. How does one court your cooperation while keeping these goals in mind, in a context where you were wavering on Ter? (Preferably in a way that's in-character for HR).
All I'm getting from this is a better understanding of HR's townread on you (simplistic ennemy-of-my-ennemy stuff), which makes me doubt my Ecoroller woofwoof theory. The point still stand that whatever it is HR was doing he was not defending you, implicitely or otherwise, in that particular post. Unless I pulled the wrong quote, which I did not, it is an atrocious twist of logic to claim otherwise.
I know you're having a lot of trouble with me here and you're going to be angry at me post-game. But for someone who is so aware of the evils of confirmation bias you could really do taking a step back - instead of deciding that it is inconceivable that I am town and just constructing a scum read based on that assumption.
Keep that to yourself, it's condescending. After how much I've flip-flopped about you, including unvoting you at the peak of your wagon's momentum, do you seriously believe I am constructing a scum read on you based on the assumption you cannot conceivably be town? No, I keep doubting and you keep triggering my scumdar. And when have I ever been angry post-game at townies I mis-scumread? I know it's been a while but hello, do you remember anything about me?
On Rhand I find his level of play this game frusateing they is little real scum hunting. They is a lot of complaints and being over defensive though. He starts off with a early defend of Eco,to Ter which is one of the more consistent parts of his play. After that he mainly complains about nothing happening and wants others to do his work for him.
Wants others to do my work for me? Where did you get that idea from?
Maybe from "ZDS save us" or "someone please vote me" (not exact quotes obv.)
I still feel like he’s very open in explaining his thought processes, which is very hard to do as mafia.
Speak for yourself, I'm so open about my thought processes as mafia I'm practically gaping. (Ok maybe not, but point is it's not hard for everyone and is more of a playstyle tell)
@Eco: TBH I was hoping for a pat on the back having caught Jack. The read on Rhand appeared from nowhere, and like I said, Rhand might be scum, but Jack def is for the gymnastics needed to justify that vote on Rhand. I'd rather got for the sure thing.
I remember Jack in Prison Block, and his posting had very clear, if rambly thinking behind it.
But talk to me about 625. You (should be) currently scumreading Jack, and you think Rhand is scum. Wouldn't flipping onto Rhand when Rhand wasn't very high in his PoE be exactly what scum!Jack would do?
@ZDS: It could be both bussing and opportunistic though. Jack would have been tracking buddy!Rhand's transgressions and when the tide was impossibly out of favor he cobbles them together in a scumread and votes.
Also AFAICT he was very lightly scumreading him up until 569. I outlined his whole progression in 592, do you disagree with that?
Were you townreading Jack prior to this? Refresh my memory.
@Vaimes: How significantly would my interrogation change him though? I would expect a similar naturalness to come from him even during that. A casualness perhaps?
@Rhand: Now that youy're caught up: reads list?
Matter is a much better example of Jack's town meta. In Prison Block, past Day 1, he was basically regurgitating the opinions I was feeding him in cell (neighbour) chat.
I mostly don't mind his progression on Rhand, and AFAICT you seem to have an issue with the fact he's had a progression at all. A read does not necessarily progress from weak to strong, it can fluctuate and shift, and the fluctuations in Jack's Rhand read appear fairly organic especially considering town-Jack is easily influenced (see above re: Prison Block meta). The only issue I do have with his progression is how it vaguely parallels the overall town's progression, which may not be AI for him (see previously).
And yes I have a light town read on him. He's doing his thing, analysing the game at his own pace, listening to the opinions of others. It's hard to commit to a strong town read without flips but what he's shown so far as been completely fine in my view.
Actually I'm not sure that was his intent but Eco put down a very good argument why Jack is most likely town (in 674, for future rereading reference).
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
If we end up no-condemning which looks to be where we are heading, future flips will make this situation very telling. There's obviously town ego at play (refusing to vote someone you think will flip town), but it's also clear there's no(t enough) scum-driven inertia to push a misflush.
I don't know yet what it means (maybe scum are offline, maybe they are happy with the situation, maybe somehow the scumteam is Rhand/Eco/Jack ).
If we end up no-condemning which looks to be where we are heading, future flips will make this situation very telling. There's obviously town ego at play (refusing to vote someone you think will flip town), but it's also clear there's no(t enough) scum-driven inertia to push a misflush.
I don't know yet what it means (maybe scum are offline, maybe they are happy with the situation, maybe somehow the scumteam is Rhand/Eco/Jack ).
I'm not happy about it but I'm also not stupid enough to not have any end result today, we need it for wagon analysis and for this game to move foward, or we are just stuck on the same issues. So I will vote Eco today, if needed but would prefer to go elsewhere, but we lack the people to do so. I'm also willing to go back to Rhand but killing someone who we can prove is lying or not tomorrow does not sit well with me.
The bigger issue are the less active people and those stuck in their agendas which is not helping town in any way.
Matter is a much better example of Jack's town meta. In Prison Block, past Day 1, he was basically regurgitating the opinions I was feeding him in cell (neighbour) chat.
I mostly don't mind his progression on Rhand, and AFAICT you seem to have an issue with the fact he's had a progression at all. A read does not necessarily progress from weak to strong, it can fluctuate and shift, and the fluctuations in Jack's Rhand read appear fairly organic especially considering town-Jack is easily influenced (see above re: Prison Block meta). The only issue I do have with his progression is how it vaguely parallels the overall town's progression, which may not be AI for him (see previously).
And yes I have a light town read on him. He's doing his thing, analysing the game at his own pace, listening to the opinions of others. It's hard to commit to a strong town read without flips but what he's shown so far as been completely fine in my view.
Actually I'm not sure that was his intent but Eco put down a very good argument why Jack is most likely town (in 674, for future rereading reference).
I actually don't know how you came to the conclusion that I had a problem with the fact that he had progression at all. This post is a good idea of my problem:
It looks to me like you were indifferent toward Rhand's wagon in facor of something happening, then you agreed with ZDS that he might be town for a reason, then one of your scumreads made points about them being scum (which didn't appear to affect your read on that scumread) now you're scumreading Rhand because of the points HR made plus a whole bunch more that weren't hinted at before 569, and now you're hardreading him over Igno and HR for reasons.
The issue was his lack of vocalization in general. I also missed the part where he said he had more in his notes, which is critical to seeing that progression as natural. Without it he goes from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds vs however long it takes to get up to 100 normally (I'm not a car guy)because it hints that there are things he's not vocalizing.
But yeah I noticed the thing on Jack, and I think it's a good reason for him to be town.
Question: Do you think Eco is handing scumread!Jack with kid gloves when he asked him to further explain his readslist on him? He was scumreading him decently up till 625, where his tone is more neutral than I was expecting.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I should have checked this when you made your readslist, when it was more relevant.
You said: "I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me."
First, "We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool" hardly counts as dumping on anyone who isn't Ter.
Second, HR's goal regardless of alignment was ostensibly to counter a pro-Ter argument and reiterate his own anti-Ter argument. How does one court your cooperation while keeping these goals in mind, in a context where you were wavering on Ter? (Preferably in a way that's in-character for HR).
All I'm getting from this is a better understanding of HR's townread on you (simplistic ennemy-of-my-ennemy stuff), which makes me doubt my Ecoroller woofwoof theory. The point still stand that whatever it is HR was doing he was not defending you, implicitely or otherwise, in that particular post. Unless I pulled the wrong quote, which I did not, it is an atrocious twist of logic to claim otherwise.
The zinger about hedging is dismissing my doubt in an aggressive way. If he's looking for cooperation, he does something like point out that she pushed me hard without actually voting, and that the reluctance to commit I saw as town as actually scummy. Just snarking at me makes me instinctively less likely to join in.
Keep that to yourself, it's condescending. After how much I've flip-flopped about you, including unvoting you at the peak of your wagon's momentum, do you seriously believe I am constructing a scum read on you based on the assumption you cannot conceivably be town? No, I keep doubting and you keep triggering my scumdar. And when have I ever been angry post-game at townies I mis-scumread? I know it's been a while but hello, do you remember anything about me?
Alright, I'm sorry. I'm just exasperated that you seem to be deep in the tunnel - sure you unvoted but as soon as I made more posts after one that you liked you dropped right back on me. Angry wasn't the right word, annoyed maybe - but I did mean only briefly, I know you're not the kind of person to hold that kind of grudge.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Still Rhand really. He's banking it all on his claim by not offering reads, and while the role is proveable I don't it's a) THAT valuable and b) inherently clearing even if proved. Obviously I'm a terrible execute, and as you can see I'm really not sure on Jack. I don't think there's any other option other than maybe Axelrod, but I'm not happy about that either.
[quote from="Killjoy »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/820307-feelgood-80s-movie-mafia-day-1-a-galaxy-very-very?comment=697"]@Eco Who's the best lynch for today and why?
Still Rhand really. He's banking it all on his claim by not offering reads, and while the role is proveable I don't it's a) THAT valuable and b) inherently clearing even if proved. Obviously I'm a terrible execute, and as you can see I'm really not sure on Jack. I don't think there's any other option other than maybe Axelrod, but I'm not happy about that either.
Hmmm. I trust the people on your wagon more than I do the one on Rhands. And I actually wouldn't be surprised if this was town!Rhand trying to play his role optimally.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Still Rhand really. He's banking it all on his claim by not offering reads, and while the role is proveable I don't it's a) THAT valuable and b) inherently clearing even if proved. Obviously I'm a terrible execute, and as you can see I'm really not sure on Jack. I don't think there's any other option other than maybe Axelrod, but I'm not happy about that either.
Hmmm. I trust the people on your wagon more than I do the one on Rhands. And I actually wouldn't be surprised if this was town!Rhand trying to play his role optimally.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Calm your vagoo, that link falls appart if at least one of Eco or HR is town, and even if they are both woofs it does not justify executing you. Don't get all frantic like you are already seeing the grim reaper.
... unless you really are seeing the grim reaper, I guess.
Also: "Eco isn't [...] under a ton of pressure"
(Well, I guess Rhand is still more likely to die as of right now, but hopefully that will change before deadline)
———
Side note, if Eco flips scum I will be 4 out of 5 at making my first serious vote in a game on scum (since my return from hiatus and obviously not counting my one scum game).
The swipe was at me offering mitigation for TerRain's scummy behaviour, it wasn't a scum read on me at all. He's implicitly defending me by attacking my attacke and making similar scum reads as me. He hasn't outright said he thinks I'm town, but he certainly doesn't want me dead.
The whole point of pocketing is that it's to try and get someone to trust you. He could be doing it maliciously to gain my trust, which is why it's not a strong town read (although I don't see why he'd want my trust specifically), but that doesn't mean it's not things I like to hear.
Does literally everything need to be absolutely explicit? Is it that unusal to think someone with similar reads as you might be town?
This is a lot of guff to give me for a read that's fluctating between "not enough information for a read" and "what he has looks kind of towny". If you think it's inconsistent, well, that's because it's not a nailed down read by any stretch of the imagination and I don't think I've ever claimed it was. I naturally lean towards town on him because he's in my corner (or at least the enemy of my enemy), but there isn't really enough content to be firm on a conclusion.
I know you're having a lot of trouble with me here and you're going to be angry at me post-game. But for someone who is so aware of the evils of confirmation bias you could really do taking a step back - instead of deciding that it is inconceivable that I am town and just constructing a scum read based on that assumption.
Wants others to do my work for me? Where did you get that idea from?
I can’t find anything that triggers me and in you come with a list where you have suspicions on half the game. Yes, that’s suspicious.
It’s frustration you were seeing there. I was frustrated that I couldn’t get a grip.
I did expect people to vote me. I just expected content with the votes, and there wasn’t any.
I don’t understand at all what you’re saying here.
Buddying =/= calling people buddies.
I am not linking with Axel. Are you even reading my posts?
What so I’m pocketing Eco by taking back my town lean on him? How does that work?
Terraine was on that Eco wagon too.
I didn’t “forget” my Eco read. But you’re making it stronger than it was. I gave a list full of leans. I wasn’t sold on anything.
Yes I was forced by Lagoon to keep talking about Lagoon and Axel. And I do scumread Lagoon. Why are you assuming I’m not? Axel… I don’t know. Definitely not with Lagoon.
Not compromising on an execute you say? Your last bit was about me compromising on Sloth.
I’m keeping my eye on Ter, but she’s definitely not someone I want to lynch toDay. Sloth hasn’t posted anything but fluff. He can die.
Igno and HR were null early game. When I see someone push something that is NAI, I will say so.
What you wrote here consists for the largest part of you misreading my posts and misrepresenting my thoughts.
The bolded: go back to HR's post, look at what he wrote, look at my reaction to that and later WATCH HIM APOLOGISE FOR HIS MISTAKE.
Seriously, what the ****?
You based your whole read on me on a mistake and then you make a big ass post full of misreps.
Vote: Jackrito
@ZDS I will try to get an Eco reread in.
Rhand (5): Slothful, Ecophagy, gooLagoon, Grapefruit21, Jackrito
Ecophagy (3): Axelrod, ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine
Jackrito (3): Killjoy, Highroller, Rhand
Not Voting (1): ignoramus
This is true just double checked, I missed the mistake and his apology, my bad there it just puts him more down my list and more reason to pressure him. My whole read on you is not based on that one thing either, really not sure why so many people just say my reads are based off one thing only.
I stand by the rest of my big post you can't just throw it away as me mis rep you.In the early game you were doing nothing but complain and you did link Axel and Lagoon together your main push on Axel appears to be because of him copying Lagoon. Lagoon himself had a big argument with you about this. Your vote on Sloth and Lagoon do not feel like scum hunting more just being forced into one and the other being LHF.
ON that note actually Sloth really did not perform in the last 2 days like he said he would so that does put him down a bit for me, since my tr for him is for dumb reasons and only goes so far.
I'm willing to back off you though because your role should be provable and it also makes you a good NK option for scum, I dont want to do their work for them if you are telling the truth. I'm not stubborn enough to execute someone when they can prove themselves. I still think you have scum equity but willing to go elsewhere for today because your claim gives me enough reason to back off.
This puts me in a bad spot with the heat coming my way but I'm doing this all the same.
unvote
But my issue there is that, if the Mafia were "themed" in some way - like all Horror movies or R-rated movies, or other decidedly not-feelgood - feels like the Mod. would be obligated to give them "safe" claims of some kind. So they couldn't all be busted by a D1 mass movie claim. Which would kind of invalidate Robocop being a tell.
My movie is totally feelgood, however, so I am perfectly on theme.
I did not do the bolded. It's the opposite: I said they're not together from the start. You're completely misreading that argument. It's about me thinking they are NOT together and still having them both as scum leans.
About Sloth: how do you hunt someone that isn't here? He doesn't even respond to things asked from him.
Lagoon... make of that what you wish. I still think he's a hit.
I see what you did there!
I remember Jack in Prison Block, and his posting had very clear, if rambly thinking behind it.
But talk to me about 625. You (should be) currently scumreading Jack, and you think Rhand is scum. Wouldn't flipping onto Rhand when Rhand wasn't very high in his PoE be exactly what scum!Jack would do?
@ZDS: It could be both bussing and opportunistic though. Jack would have been tracking buddy!Rhand's transgressions and when the tide was impossibly out of favor he cobbles them together in a scumread and votes.
Also AFAICT he was very lightly scumreading him up until 569. I outlined his whole progression in 592, do you disagree with that?
Were you townreading Jack prior to this? Refresh my memory.
@Vaimes: How significantly would my interrogation change him though? I would expect a similar naturalness to come from him even during that. A casualness perhaps?
@Rhand: Now that youy're caught up: reads list?
FWIW I believe this and count it as a point in your favour.
* I still see nothing in the Ignoramus thing. He wrongly assumed he was a total newbie, talked to him as such, realized his mistake and that’s it. The town read he got out of it should have been a NAI read, but Eco admits that it’s a weak read, which is fine for early game.
* I totally agree on his take-away from Jack’s first big post.
* The Terraine read in #286 is a humongous fence sit, but I like how he shows his thought process
* His recent stance on Jackrito is very strange and going from “I would still vote on a Jackrito wagon” to putting him in his town reads in the next post is the first thing I can not follow his thought process on.
* If I understand correctly, he’s voting me out of pure paranoia, which is a pretty bad reason to vote someone.
Reading his iso, it bugs me that he flipped his view on Jackrito. His original take-away on Jack’s post was one of the main reasons I thought he was town.
I still feel like he’s very open in explaining his thought processes, which is very hard to do as mafia.
@Eco: can you explain again why you think Jackrito is town and how you went from wanting to vote him to placing him there?
Can't do that without crumbing where my vest will go.
Basically I had an initial scum read for reasons already gone over. People have been asking me repeatedly to explain it, and as I go over it there isn't as much support for it as I'd like. E.g I thought his town read on me was appeasing his attacker, espeically when he said he'd let me die because his other town reads are voting me. But he has consistently doubled down on his town read of me in a way that wouldn't really make sense - the scum play would be to stick to the "I think he's town but am ok with huim dying" angle. Or just scum read me. He's deliberately cut himself off the Axel wagon, and he's even having trouble committing to the Rhand wagon despite it being an easy avenue. While his primary area of interest has been Highroller, he's not focussed solely there in the way scum like to park their vote to avoid interacting with the thread at large.
I still don't really know if I think Jack is really town (#548 was more of a tought experiment than my literal reads), but there's a lot more doubt in my mind and the initial read hasn't held too well (i.e. it was for him making thin, consesnsy reads, but he's moved beyond that now). He could be hyper-sensitive scum looking to avoid conflict because he is backing down from/wavering in positions in the face of adversity - but that could be personality too.
Short version is: I don't see it.
I think you should move your vote. I'm not going to make a lengthy defense-of-Jack post here, because I don't have him as hard town or anything, but your main issue (if I'm reading correctly) that his progression on Rhand doesn't seem natural, I disagree with. I thought it was fine.
Yeah I just found it.
If eco is scum, ZDS probably town.
You said: "I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me."
First, "We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool" hardly counts as dumping on anyone who isn't Ter.
Second, HR's goal regardless of alignment was ostensibly to counter a pro-Ter argument and reiterate his own anti-Ter argument. How does one court your cooperation while keeping these goals in mind, in a context where you were wavering on Ter? (Preferably in a way that's in-character for HR).
All I'm getting from this is a better understanding of HR's townread on you (simplistic ennemy-of-my-ennemy stuff), which makes me doubt my Ecoroller woofwoof theory. The point still stand that whatever it is HR was doing he was not defending you, implicitely or otherwise, in that particular post. Unless I pulled the wrong quote, which I did not, it is an atrocious twist of logic to claim otherwise.
Overall 655 doesn't move the needle for me. Keep that to yourself, it's condescending. After how much I've flip-flopped about you, including unvoting you at the peak of your wagon's momentum, do you seriously believe I am constructing a scum read on you based on the assumption you cannot conceivably be town? No, I keep doubting and you keep triggering my scumdar.
And when have I ever been angry post-game at townies I mis-scumread? I know it's been a while but hello, do you remember anything about me?
Maybe from "ZDS save us" or "someone please vote me" (not exact quotes obv.) Speak for yourself, I'm so open about my thought processes as mafia I'm practically gaping. (Ok maybe not, but point is it's not hard for everyone and is more of a playstyle tell)
Matter is a much better example of Jack's town meta. In Prison Block, past Day 1, he was basically regurgitating the opinions I was feeding him in cell (neighbour) chat.
I mostly don't mind his progression on Rhand, and AFAICT you seem to have an issue with the fact he's had a progression at all. A read does not necessarily progress from weak to strong, it can fluctuate and shift, and the fluctuations in Jack's Rhand read appear fairly organic especially considering town-Jack is easily influenced (see above re: Prison Block meta). The only issue I do have with his progression is how it vaguely parallels the overall town's progression, which may not be AI for him (see previously).
And yes I have a light town read on him. He's doing his thing, analysing the game at his own pace, listening to the opinions of others. It's hard to commit to a strong town read without flips but what he's shown so far as been completely fine in my view.
Actually I'm not sure that was his intent but Eco put down a very good argument why Jack is most likely town (in 674, for future rereading reference). This is the post in question, right?: I should have checked this when you made your readslist, when it was more relevant.
Ecophagy (3): Axelrod, ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine
Jackrito (2): Highroller, Rhand
Not Voting (2): ignoramus, Jackrito, Killjoy
If we end up no-condemning which looks to be where we are heading, future flips will make this situation very telling. There's obviously town ego at play (refusing to vote someone you think will flip town), but it's also clear there's no(t enough) scum-driven inertia to push a misflush.
I don't know yet what it means (maybe scum are offline, maybe they are happy with the situation, maybe somehow the scumteam is Rhand/Eco/Jack ).
Ok, in the middle of something right now, will make a longer post in a few, but really important:
Ok, question to people who've played a lot of games on here: is this a normal role to have in a 12-person game on this site?
I'm not happy about it but I'm also not stupid enough to not have any end result today, we need it for wagon analysis and for this game to move foward, or we are just stuck on the same issues. So I will vote Eco today, if needed but would prefer to go elsewhere, but we lack the people to do so. I'm also willing to go back to Rhand but killing someone who we can prove is lying or not tomorrow does not sit well with me.
The bigger issue are the less active people and those stuck in their agendas which is not helping town in any way.
I’m happy with my vote and currently out and on my phone so it’s hard to be present
But yeah I noticed the thing on Jack, and I think it's a good reason for him to be town.
Question: Do you think Eco is handing scumread!Jack with kid gloves when he asked him to further explain his readslist on him? He was scumreading him decently up till 625, where his tone is more neutral than I was expecting.
The zinger about hedging is dismissing my doubt in an aggressive way. If he's looking for cooperation, he does something like point out that she pushed me hard without actually voting, and that the reluctance to commit I saw as town as actually scummy. Just snarking at me makes me instinctively less likely to join in.
Alright, I'm sorry. I'm just exasperated that you seem to be deep in the tunnel - sure you unvoted but as soon as I made more posts after one that you liked you dropped right back on me. Angry wasn't the right word, annoyed maybe - but I did mean only briefly, I know you're not the kind of person to hold that kind of grudge.
glgl
Axel: You sound fine.
Still Rhand really. He's banking it all on his claim by not offering reads, and while the role is proveable I don't it's a) THAT valuable and b) inherently clearing even if proved. Obviously I'm a terrible execute, and as you can see I'm really not sure on Jack. I don't think there's any other option other than maybe Axelrod, but I'm not happy about that either.
You should just vote somewhere though.
Still Rhand really. He's banking it all on his claim by not offering reads, and while the role is proveable I don't it's a) THAT valuable and b) inherently clearing even if proved. Obviously I'm a terrible execute, and as you can see I'm really not sure on Jack. I don't think there's any other option other than maybe Axelrod, but I'm not happy about that either.
Hmmm. I trust the people on your wagon more than I do the one on Rhands. And I actually wouldn't be surprised if this was town!Rhand trying to play his role optimally.
Vote Eco