It looks to me like you were indifferent toward Rhand's wagon in facor of something happening, then you agreed with ZDS that he might be town for a reason, then one of your scumreads made points about them being scum (which didn't appear to affect your read on that scumread) now you're scumreading Rhand because of the points HR made plus a whole bunch more that weren't hinted at before 569, and now you're hardreading him over Igno and HR for reasons.
Just because I'm scumreading someone I'm not going to ignore their posts because like I just said I can be wrong, it was a good point by HR one of the only ones I think he had. It bothers me how he has not done anything with it though and just stays on Ter.
On the first point I'm indifferent because that is early in the day, and nothing has happened and it got things moving like we all were. I don't think anyone should be seriously committed to a wagon that early, this game has a lot of moving parts and people. I semi agreed with ZDS yet again this is early in the day before Rhand did anything really wrong. He was on the lower end for me sure from memory but not done enough for me to commit to a full scum read,. The 2nd part of D is the reference to me going to do something from my Notes On Rhand which I did in 569.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day. HR and Igno also lack heavily in content so semi giving them both a pass for today to see if tomorrow brings better content. I can't get a execute on someone in this game by myself. So I'm going to go with the one who has the most scummy content which Rhand does compared to the other 2 and also the one who is least likely to succeed. Igno and HR are tunnels/ gut reads. Rhand is the one that comes with most damning evidence and also the one that my bigger town reads also agree with. So they are multiple factors that make them the right choice today for me.
It was mainly his attack on Ter bothered me a lot and a lack of wider picture in the game. It does not feel like he is scum hunting more just semi reacting and just death tunneling Ter.I admit though they is not enough content and it is perhaps his meta which some of you seem to confirm. I have a bad habit of going on these insane tunnels though like I did in Matter because I like to trust my intial view most of the time. But I'm putting that aside for today and see how they do tomorrow since I have no chance of getting it and not had the best history in these tunnels either.
He always death tunnels though. See Elderlings for examples of him deathtunneling (basically?) all townies and a 3per.
Which is why I'm backing off for today, still have a gut read and a belief i'm right that is partly for ego purposes though. The sad fact is I have somehow got way too many town reads atm which I need to review like I said earlier, hopefully this flip can help me figure out if I'm on the right path or just plain wrong.
It looks to me like you were indifferent toward Rhand's wagon in facor of something happening, then you agreed with ZDS that he might be town for a reason, then one of your scumreads made points about them being scum (which didn't appear to affect your read on that scumread) now you're scumreading Rhand because of the points HR made plus a whole bunch more that weren't hinted at before 569, and now you're hardreading him over Igno and HR for reasons.
Just because I'm scumreading someone I'm not going to ignore their posts because like I just said I can be wrong, it was a good point by HR one of the only ones I think he had. It bothers me how he has not done anything with it though and just stays on Ter.
On the first point I'm indifferent because that is early in the day, and nothing has happened and it got things moving like we all were. I don't think anyone should be seriously committed to a wagon that early, this game has a lot of moving parts and people. I semi agreed with ZDS yet again this is early in the day before Rhand did anything really wrong. He was on the lower end for me sure from memory but not done enough for me to commit to a full scum read,. The 2nd part of D is the reference to me going to do something from my Notes On Rhand which I did in 569.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day. HR and Igno also lack heavily in content so semi giving them both a pass for today to see if tomorrow brings better content. I can't get a execute on someone in this game by myself. So I'm going to go with the one who has the most scummy content which Rhand does compared to the other 2 and also the one who is least likely to succeed. Igno and HR are tunnels/ gut reads. Rhand is the one that comes with most damning evidence and also the one that my bigger town reads also agree with. So they are multiple factors that make them the right choice today for me.
Are you saying that ZDS's point becomes irrelevant even Rhand starts acting scummy?
The problem is none of those posts before 569 hint that 569 exists in your head. 569 just comes out of nowhere.
If you want to vote the then do. If you think HR or Igno is scum make that case.
A lot of us have Igno pretty low on our lists. Idk why you'd "compromise" before trying to yeet them.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It looks to me like you were indifferent toward Rhand's wagon in facor of something happening, then you agreed with ZDS that he might be town for a reason, then one of your scumreads made points about them being scum (which didn't appear to affect your read on that scumread) now you're scumreading Rhand because of the points HR made plus a whole bunch more that weren't hinted at before 569, and now you're hardreading him over Igno and HR for reasons.
Just because I'm scumreading someone I'm not going to ignore their posts because like I just said I can be wrong, it was a good point by HR one of the only ones I think he had. It bothers me how he has not done anything with it though and just stays on Ter.
On the first point I'm indifferent because that is early in the day, and nothing has happened and it got things moving like we all were. I don't think anyone should be seriously committed to a wagon that early, this game has a lot of moving parts and people. I semi agreed with ZDS yet again this is early in the day before Rhand did anything really wrong. He was on the lower end for me sure from memory but not done enough for me to commit to a full scum read,. The 2nd part of D is the reference to me going to do something from my Notes On Rhand which I did in 569.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day. HR and Igno also lack heavily in content so semi giving them both a pass for today to see if tomorrow brings better content. I can't get a execute on someone in this game by myself. So I'm going to go with the one who has the most scummy content which Rhand does compared to the other 2 and also the one who is least likely to succeed. Igno and HR are tunnels/ gut reads. Rhand is the one that comes with most damning evidence and also the one that my bigger town reads also agree with. So they are multiple factors that make them the right choice today for me.
Are you saying that ZDS's point becomes irrelevant even Rhand starts acting scummy?
The problem is none of those posts before 569 hint that 569 exists in your head. 569 just comes out of nowhere.
If you want to vote the then do. If you think HR or Igno is scum make that case.
A lot of us have Igno pretty low on our lists. Idk why you'd "compromise" before trying to yeet them.
I would say ZDS comment does because the game has moved to a different stage you can't judge early day 1 compared to later day 1. Later will always have more weight because people will always have more content so easier to see issues in their thoughts.
That is because 569 is the combo of all my notes put together which I can only do on my laptop and it was something I was doing on off during day one, working through person by person. Rhand was always near the bottom I just did not have all my stuff together yet, and reading others points on him only moved him down in the meantime.
I made my cases on both to a lesser degree, but like I said less content to judge them on and less support. So better to give them another day for now, I'm not confident enough like Axel or Eco to push something so heavily by myself not in my personality espically on day one. They are rare exceptions but I'm a passive support type player rather then a hard solo pusher.
Rhand has more scum equity and done enough to be judged off fully is the answer to your last point. Igno is just a sheep who offers no new views which some players can be like and they are the type I always misskill. So giving him time to see if he improves if not I go there tomorrow like I said multi times today.
Ok so, I feel like regardless of Rhands alignment, the gymnastics required to justify his vote makes Jack slightly more likely scum here?
Vote Jackarito
This only became gymnastics because you have put everything under the microscope, and because my playstyle involves me doing things in a roundabout way at times. It is not like Rhand suddenly appeared in my POE suddenly.
Even if you couldn't vocalize a whole give scumread on Rhand, you never hinted at the strength of it. Ask you said was in relation to HRs points. You never says anything else
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ok so, I feel like regardless of Rhands alignment, the gymnastics required to justify his vote makes Jack slightly more likely scum here?
Vote Jackarito
This only became gymnastics because you have put everything under the microscope, and because my playstyle involves me doing things in a roundabout way at times. It is not like Rhand suddenly appeared in my POE suddenly.
Can you link a few town games for me? I'm look at them to see if you have any other examples of reads developing off screen.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
One sidenote: One thing that may point to a town HR is the "currently listening to" music blurbs. If it's not role related, it might point to a relaxed, carefree HR this game, but I'm not confident in that this early in the game.
I'm really flattered that you're giving me that much credit in terms of thought-process, but I just really love 80s music. I'm definitely actually listening to these songs as I write these posts.
Doubt I change my mind barring a big change in the last day, I should be around though if something does happen, and if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.
... So you're suddenly so confident it's Rhand that you don't believe you'll change your mind at all?
Yup. Believe it or not D1 usually contains a lot of mind changing throughout the phase as we townsfolk try to figure out what's what.
Yeah, but there's this thing called "rationale" that usually comes around with that, not making your way through your bingo board.
Who wants to bet that TerRaine won't make ten more posts without Ter's current vote changing? C'mon. Anyone want to pony up? It's just for fun, we know that's what's going to happen.
@Highroller: What do you normally look for in scum? What makes a scum for you?
Disingenuousness, reads that do not feel organic, blatant inconsistencies, stances and actions which appear to come from a desire to kill someone first and justfying second, as opposed to a person thinking someone is mafia based on reasons and then following that to a natural conclusion.
There was no progression. You just saw everyone was voting Rhand and proceeded to vote him. Now you're saying there's nothing that would make you unvote him, despite the fact that you're only voting him because other people are voting him.
There's not really been a progression with anything you've been doing. You described Igno as a "big red flag," yet you didn't vote him, instead voting me. When you saw that wasn't going to gain any traction, you backed off. Now, as people are criticizing me for not posting enough, you're starting to bring this whole, "You know, I'm really suspicious of Highroller" thing back.
not always my first choice clearly because I took issues with others more, and not went into full deep dive on Rhand until recently to assure it.
Ok, so right here, you say you didn't vote Rhand because you weren't sure until recently.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day.
That's... No, that's not what a hardread is.
You're saying, "I'm hardreading Rhand because that's where everyone else is voting." You're basically admitting here that you're voting Rhand and don't see yourself voting anyone else because you don't see the town voting anyone else, not because you yourself have any strong read on him. That's the logical opposite of a hardread.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I definitely remember Rhand, but a quick skim looks like that was it. But, uh, now Jack's got two votes from HR and KJ. So I might have to put some money where my mouth is.
I think Ecophagy's read process on Axelrod specifically is making me think he actually is town? It would be a cleverly manipulative read to manufacture as mafia. I don't know anything about Ecophagy's scumplay but personality-wise, super subtle sneaky reads like that don't seem to be his style.
You should read Secret Agent mafia where I got some mope called Vaimes voted off to win the game.
Eco. is super sneaky. Or, once upon a time he was. He fooled me about as bad as I've ever been fooled before. So, his "townie" bar is forevermore quite high with me. He is currently not crossing it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm annoyed by Jacktrito only getting votes now after I've just publically doubted by scum read. Highroller I can understand because he's not been engaged in the game and does his own thing, but Killjoy voting there instead of Rhand (especially since he didn't even vote Rhand/anyone after his read wall in #561) strikes me as a cynical ploy to derail the Rhand wagon. That being said there is public progression, and KJ's tone/post volume looks like someone excited rather than tactical. Something I would look very hard at were Rhand to flip mafia.
Jackrito's read list in #563 is weird. Highroller's position in the town group is unexplained and contradicts the last position in #540 where he said "Still don't like Highroller thought his catch up was bad apart from the one point on Rhand. But like I said before leaving that battle for another day." - but HR is also somehow still in the PoE (#589)? And I can't see where the KJ town read comes from either (another appeasement read??). TerRaine is in the scum pool which I'm sure doesn't track with previous reads, and neither does Sloth sitting right at the bottom (Sloth town read in #451 and #540).
So yeah @Jackrito, I think the reads in #563 need a lot more explaining because they don't really track with his past reads, and his PoE given in #589 doesn't even really mesh with the #563 list.
Rhand's claim? Claim is decent - it's proveable and wouldn't necessarily make sense as a scum role. However, if he is scum I'm assuming he can give out more than just a BP vest (and things that he'd like to give his buddies), and it's not so strong a role that I would be upset losing it. So much more is hinging on his catch up and subsequent vote than the claim. @Rhand: Who do you want to give a vest to and why?
• Rhand's claim is believable. The role itself is probably more likely to be on town than on scum, but depending on the rest of the set-up either could work. So I don't expect it to change many people's opinions.
• All who give Eco a pass because he is rational and his thought processes are easy to follow need to stop doing that and drop him to at most null. These are player-quality tells, they say nothing about a player's alignment and only tell you they are competent.
To put it another way, do you expect Eco to be either rational and collected as town, or a flailing imbecile as scum? Give me a break.
I don't claim to be right beyond any doubt about Eco, but at least try to read him past the NAI stuff.
• Highroller takes lots of strong stances but he barely justifies them (or he handwaves them as "feels") and he does not do much more than state them and move on (if given the chance). In other words, reads instead of content.
The fact he had to be told to "come at [Ter]" is extremely atypical for him, a more usual reaction is "leave me alooooone". Here the paragraph on Ter is basically tacked on at the end of #570 so we don't forget he is/was scumreading her.
The switch to Jackrito is... eh. The rationale behind it is fine on the surface, however AFAICT HR is/was scumleaning on Rhand and it doesn't make a lot of sense to scumread Jack in this situation unless expecting Rhand to flip town. The timing of it is suspicious as well, right after KJ interrogated Jack.
• The nonsensicalness of scumreading Jack for (essentially) wagonning against Rhand while also scumreading Rhand also applies to Killjoy — especially since the argument is not that Jack could be bussing, but that he is being opportunistic.
• All in all I tend to agree with Jack's #564, the rising momentum against him has all the signs of prepping the scapegoat for the ritual sacrifice. I still need to figure out if that momentum is being created by scum or by useful idiots.
Tbf what Eco is doing to me is what I'm doing this game to Igno and normally do in general. It's hard for myself personally to convince people so will just keep bringing my issue up to try and get traction. So I expect others also have this issue. It's hard to push the execute on me when most here appear to not scum read me. So don't fault their approuch.
I'll need to check but IIRC you don't spend more time asking others about their opinions on Igno than actually interacting with Igno themself.
ZDS, you were so close to getting there. I respect the Jackrito read is one of those early game reads that's stronger than it probably should be, and sure I haven't been combing through his posts but it's not like anyone else is interested in voting him (even the people who had him down as scum??) and I've been pretty preoccupied trying to get a handle on the game at large and trying to stop you all killing me. It's easier to poke reads and investigate when you're not fighting for your life.
[...]
Yes, I know I'm reconsidering my read only after you said that you don't like it and I haven't done anything with it. I can argue that Jack's most recent content has been the most convincing (basically the part where he's actively defending me), but realistically you'll just have to suffer the headache.
1) Could you reiterate where does that read came from initially? You had a clearly biased, already-stuck-in-the-tunnel interpretation of his first content post, and I can't see anything bad with his previous (RVS) posts.
2) His recent posts have been decent, I would be more offended if you doubled down. I'm surprised with the complete reversal, but it's hard to interpret it right now.
I definitely remember Rhand, but a quick skim looks like that was it. But, uh, now Jack's got two votes from HR and KJ. So I might have to put some money where my mouth is.
3) Why? Is it because he is scumreading Jack, who you used to scumread, then townread, then [???]?
4) Where is your mouth anyway?
(BTW, it's confusing but Jack's TSlist in 563 is a repeat of Grape's list in #450, similar to that time Rhand copied Jack's list.)
Christ alive, I can't believe I misread #563. So scratch all the points I made based on that.
1) The initial read came from a) a dislike of his inital content (the qualifier on the vote and overexplanation on being caught in a previous game) and b) a dislike of his first read list. I think I've gone over those to death, but if there's anything specific I can try and re-explain.
2) It's not a complete reversal, but maybe more because of read stickiness than for any concrete reason.
3) It's more because Highroller is going after TerRaine (who is my spicy scum pick) and implicitly defends me by contrast. And yes, he's validating my ego by scum-reading Jack. Do I actually think Highroller is town? Not really. But he's doing things that pocket me. I agree that switching to Jack immediately after KJ does looks suspicious.
4) I was going to say "prepared to vote Jack if we like Rhand's claim", but since you pointed out I'm an idiot I'm not so sure. Jackrito's flip would help me orient the game, but I'm not going to actively move there unless the wagon looks better or Rhand comes out very strong. I would say I would vote Jackrito over Axelrod.
Well not played in a couple of months, and I was well off my game when I was playing back then. So hoping this attempt goes a lot better. Not sure when I ever scum slipped though, Since being only town here when playing and replaced out when scum both times for differing reasons.
2 & 4)
3) You've been townreadingHighroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
Axel's ISO: Inconclusive. He mostly keeps his thoughts to himself except when dumping an overanalysis or that time he went "oh yeah me too I have the same reads". GTMH he's town, more because that's the statistically safer bet than because he's done anything particularly AI.
Highroller's ISO: Not enough material to notice any big picture yet, and he could be having trouble getting started after the intensity of Realm of the Elderlings. As for what is there, he comments on a lot of stuff but mostly stays superficial. I would say he's scum but that's mostly because of bias, if I try to stay objective he's somewhere between null and meh. GTMH, shoot me.
(On the other hand if I'm right on Eco being scum, HR is strongly +scum because of Eco's spew)
1) You've gone over the readslist to death, on the other hand I wouldn't mind an Axel-style overanalysis of what exactly is wrong with <snip>
I don't have anything so deep as Axelrod here. It's just a very wordy and insecure response to a tongue-in-cheek question. Saying both "I was well off my game when I was playing back then. So hoping this attempt goes a lot better" and "Not sure when I ever scum slipped though" just came across as a bit "look at me I'm town this time" but also defensively denying scum-slipping as a pre-emptive move against being accused of it again this game.
Quote from ZDS »
3) You've been townreadingHighroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
That non-progression worded as progression is
HR continuing to do things that I previously wanted to town read him on makes me want to townread him more. I don't see what's wrong with that.
....uhhh nope. Not a question Town wants answered.
I mean I'm basically just asking him who he thinks is town and who he thinks the scum might kill. I don't want to know his target I want to know who he is considering. Unless you don't think it's important to know how someone is intending to use a role when evaluating a claim?
Atm though my reads are not that different. I'm semi doubling down on my Eco town read even though it goes aganist what I said eariler about voting there. I thought about it and can't really explain right now, but I don't see their work this game as scum like espically their giant post on everyone. Slso hen two big egos clash like them and Ter in my exp it os normally town also. People who strongly scummy ad me early and push it non stop are normally town also. I know my play can annoy people and will scumread me for it. So I have no intrest in voting them today.
I also changed my mind on Sloth and think they are town for dumb reasons. He is annoying me this game sure with being so little impact. I think this is more likely to come from his town play though. As scum I would expect him to try more out of respect to team. Only tine I saw him as scum he was the driving force of his team. I don't think he is the type to low effort when in a small team. You all know him better though do could be wrong.
I'm also accepting that I'm likely wrong on High roller, and will vote elsewhere later. Multiple people have told me now this is NAI.
This leaves me with Igno Axel Rhand and Grape. When free later I intend to look at them in more detail. I'm not saying all are scum but I don't see any as town right now.
Sloth’s low impact can easily mean his team is not in trouble and he doesn’t need to be a driving force. It’s a weak townclear, but I do get where it comes from.
Your HR read doesn’t make him town. It makes him NAI. Why isn’t he not in the list of “people you don’t see as town”?
unvote
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
It’s strange that you say “someone” here. Doesn’t it matter to you who makes a meta read for you to believe the meta read?
Huh he did.
I guess Vaimes / Eco is never a thing now.
I can’t parse this. Creating a whole world view around someone asking him to ignore certain facts is un-Eco. For both alignments. It’s too compliant.
I wasn't exactly building a whole world around it, it's more that I was trying to make a read list with self-awareness that as the focual point of the game lots of people are wrong and it's natural to want to scum read them. I'd have made a list like that anwyay at some point, but gooLagoon asking me to motivated me to stop worrying that my reads are crap and just churn it out. I was trying to be objective, not ignore facts.
There's also a more prosaic reason for voting you - no-one is interested in TerRaine or Jack wagons, so I might as well vote the read I have which other people might care about. If that changes, my vote most likely would as well.
I would argue that looking into why people vote you is objective, but fair I guess.
[font=georgia]
• Looking back at Rhand's reads, the only thing justifying his scumlean on Axel is "Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying". On the other hand he dedicates an entire paragraph to Goo. So his scumlean on Axel is not merely weaker than the one on Goo, it's so much weaker it doesn't make sense to have them on the same level and to let such a fuss happen about it. (I stand by my previous observation that it would be more coherent for scum-Rhand to avoid this situation, but this still needs clarifying.)
Also I still question his town-read on Eco. "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense" is obviously a controversial opinion.
I had no strong reads when I made that list.
Goo was lower on my scum leans than Axel for a reason. But Axel’s post was scummy enough not to put him in the nulls and Goo wasn’t scummy enough to make him a category lower than leans.
The fuss about it: I have no idea how to avoid that. Goo kept pusing on it. And after all that, apparently you still think it worth asking for clarification, so you want even more fuss about it?
You question my town read on Eco? Where is your question?
@Grapefruit: Since you're living inside my head can you talk to me with Rhand. Do you see what I see or is it entirely paranoia?
I don't think it's entirely paranoia but I think it's something so idiosyncratic to your slot to be almost useless to the broader game even if we're town reading you. Yes he could be trying to pocket you by aligning his reads with yours, while not attempting to save you. That is a possibility but it implies he's scum and not with the people pushing you which requires both the belief that you're town and Ter is town and then needs to be willing to read him on his actions in that world.
I'm at you being town and I feel better about Ter after your interactions with her today but I'm not ready to then make reads based on what scum would be doing in that world.
There is also the problem of what's Rhand's plan in that world. Yes it tracks but pocketing you while letting you die isn't exactly a great utility to him. And he could set up pushes on your town wagon without trying to get you on his side (because who looks at dead villagers posts after all?).
Aren’t you voting me because you agree with Eco’s view?
Working all day today and tomorrow. Which isn't leaving a lot of time for this.
I had an idea that the next thing I was going to micro-over-analyze was Vaimes and Rhand and this argument of whether Rhand can scumlean two people who he also thinks aren't scumbuddies, but that is probably going to have to wait.
This is the second time you say you’re going to talk about me but you don’t. Are you avoiding confrontation with me?
HR has a very wide scope in #490. That’s very different from his tunnel in the game that just finished.
@HR do you have a game where you were mafia that you can link?
I don't have major tells against him. I have paranoia.
Thing is I know he's a good player as either alignment. As of now he seems to be coasting and hedgy.
If he's town, he's not really adding much to our roster and I just don't see much drive to kick it into gear. The info from his flip gives us more than his play has been
If he's scum, we don't really WANT him to kick it into gear.
It would be one thing if he wasn't present (See: Sloth) but he is and there's just not much there to work with.
Also I wasn't a fan of the whole...
Rhand: Hey wagon me!
Goo/Me/someone else?: Ok.
Rhand: ....well....not like that!
In the end...either we hit scum or we misyeet and have a flip and have a wagon to examine and starting point
He's the few. We the many.
But I'm happier I think with Axel
This post is all kinds of terrible. She doesn’t scumread me here, she wants an info lynch.
I know you and I are trying this "being less antagonistic towards each other" thing but I really hate that your second top vote is because 1) he might be scum and that would be scary late game and 2) iNfORmaTioN. Yes, yes, I'm oversimplifying, but it stinks as a reason to vote because toMorrow you can shrug your shoulders and say "well too bad".
My main point is Rhand would benefit from being right about me AND get a headstart on attacking people voting me so it looks more organic (maybe that's why he started with least-likely-to-succeed-D1-target gooLagoon???). It's a good point that that makes it difficult to fit a scum team into the space around peopel trying to kill me, but I guess we can't work that out anyway without some bodies.
Vote: Rhand
the more I think about this the more I think it's actually a decent reason to scum read Rhand. And the PoE narrowness isn't as bad as I thought. It's just like Ter and Eco are town and Axel looks a lot better.
Oh here is that vote. I’m not the only one townreading Eco though. Why would this apply to me and not anyone else that calls Eco town?
Sloth has popped in several times now and still hasn’t explained his vote. @Sloth explain your vote?
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
This post keeps bugging me. Not just that word “townread”, which following his explanation should still be “read”; it seems like he knows Axel is town and is looking for a reason to start townreading him.
But also that Jackrito read. That Jackrito post had way too much suspicion in it for the content that was in thread at that point. I don’t understand how you can arrive to a town clear there.
Same for ZDS and Axel to a degree, but Vaimes goes for a town clear here, which is very premature.
Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying. Axel/Vaimes not a thing probably because just quoting a buddy’s readslist and saying “I agree” seems like something mafia doesn’t do.
I think Eco and KJ are town. Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense.
And KJ is doing his usual thing where he questions everything.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
I did do things to get content going. I made people talk about me. With lack of other reads, getting people to talk about myself is the best way to get reads on them.
And I can tell you I don’t like your approach. You’re taking the easy route here, throwing me into your suspicions without taking a real stance. But while you say I am not your strongest read, you are not voting the ones that are.
I’m also having problems with Terraine because her whole worldview is more or less mine reversed. And her reaction to me is bad in a similar way as Vaimes’ is.
I’m running out of time, my train is going to arrive soon.
Quick worldview:
Town lean
Eco
KJ
Grape
Null
Ignoramus
ZDS
Sloth
HR
Lean mafia
Axel
Jacrito
Terraine
Vaimes
Vaimes / Axel probably not together
vote: gooLagoon
Starting from the top, I don't see the issue Rhand sees with the use of the term "townread" which he feels should just be "read." Especially given the context, which is that Vaimes (apparently) scum-reads me a lot on D1, but I have always been town. It makes sense, under those circumstances to say that he doesn't know how to "townread" me, because that - specifically - is what he hasn't been able to do correctly. There hasn't been a situation where I have been scum for him to contrast it with. This is a small thing, but Rhand is just making it a much bigger issue than it ever should be. Incidentally, it would also be kind of clumsy for scum-Vaimes to suggest I was Town in this way. Why would he even want to do that?
I already said that I liked Jackrito's post also, though I didn't go any further than that. What I liked was an early effort to give a bunch of reads on a bunch of people. This - I feel - comes from a Town mentality more often than a scum one. Obviously not that scum can't and don't do it, but just "more often." Besides that, I felt like these were more than just a bunch of weak surface or "gut" reads. Like there was some actual thought that went into them (regardless of whether I agree or disagree). It's nothing huge, and certainly did not make Jack "clear", but it was a decent post. So I take issue with people who seemed to think it was scummy. Rhand's view in particular here - that he didn't like it because it had "too much suspicion" in it for that point in the game, makes no sense to me.
Now, Rhand's larger point was that he didn't like the fact that Vaimes was town-reading Jackrito over it. It was more an attack on Vaimes. And while, like I said, I certainly wouldn't have "cleared" Jack on that post alone, I don't really care that Vaimes expressed a stronger opinion about it.
Then he suggests that I might have been "buddying" Vaimes with my post where I just quoted his read-list and agreed with it. That, of course, would make me the scum (for buddying) but this is where he also says he doesn't think we would be scum together for that post (because it would be strange for one scum to simply quote his buddy's read-list and agree with it). And given that he ends the post with a Vote for Vaimes, it is a little odd he has this take in here also.
You might imagine that I disagree with the statement "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense." I am wondering if Rhand actually followed that whole exchange with Igno. and if he thought that Eco was doing there what Eco said that he was doing.
I would agree with the statement that KJ is "doing his usual thing" where he questions everything. But I would disagree that that is a reason to town-read him. It's a stupidly easy "meta" to mimic as scum.
Finally, there was that whole "I have no clue" can someone do something, like start a wagon on me....Which promptly led to a wagon on himself. And to which he responded "A bunch of naked votes aren't going to help." Rhand was still saying he didn't have anything to talk about several posts later. In this post he seems to defend himself though, and suggest that he actually got what he wanted. And that he "made people talk about me." Not sure I'm buying that as a defense of yourself. I don't feel like you actually used or tried to use that wagon you generated on yourself to much purpose.
And the final argument against Vaimes here - that Vaimes is taking the "easy" route by throwing Rhand into his pool of suspicion without "taking a real stance," just seems silly. I felt like Vaimes was "taking a stance." And I thought it was perfectly fine for where we were in the game. You don't need a whole lot of reason to vote someone on D1.
So, that was this post.
Finally, Axel’s reaction.
How is this not something you post immediately when you see my post and think these things?
I have a big issue with your big issue: you’re defending Vaimes for expressing opinions that are stronger than they should be while attacking me for expressing opinions that are stronger than they should be. My push on Vaimes was harder than my opinion on Vaimes yes. Soft pushes don’t lead anywhere. My reads on Eco and KJ weren’t very solid, they were town leans, not town clears.
This whole post shows that you have decided to use different scales for what is ok for Vaimes and what is ok for me.
On Vaimes, you say:
* Jack’s post was decent but not clearing, but it’s ok for Vaimes to clear Jack over it.
* It’s ok for Vaimes to vote his 3rd strongest scumread
On me you say:
* It’s not ok to make the “townread” issue bigger than it should be
* It’s not ok to townlean KJ because he’s in his normal meta
I don’t know if it’s confirmation bias or if you’re mafia adding to the anti-Rhand sentiment in thread, but you went into this with the decision you were going to paint a scummy picture.
-snip-
The more the day goes it looks more likely we end up on Rhand today. He is clearly the main person most of us agree on.
-snip
Still don't like Highroller thought his catch up was bad apart from the one point on Rhand. But like I said before leaving that battle for another day.
-snip-
Doesn't it bother you that there is little to no pushback on my wagon? How often have you seen unopposed Day 1 wagons land on town?
That "point" HR made was refuted. Did you really miss that?
Rhand:
Rhand starts off the game fluffing, like the rest of us do, though that's unusual for him I think... enough so that it's worth commenting on but not enough to assign as alignment telling. I still dislike that he decided to complain and flail instead of trying to do anything. I'm specifically against the fact that the one thing he DOES do to drum up content (asking us to vote him) he doesn't even analyze. I can't see Rhand asking us to vote him without a plan to analyze afterward.
I believe that he didn't grasp the subtle context of 'townread vs. read' regardless of alignment. The timing of it might be suspect as he was under pressure to have reads, but for now I'm gonna throw that in the NAI category
His reads list in 346 doesn't mention any of his nulls, nor Grape, nor Terraine. He later says that Grape is a 'total gut read' when Grape asks him. I get that he was rushing, but wouldn't he logically have said that after he said me and Eco were town in his list?I guess that's not super telling, given I don't actually know how much of a rush he was in.
Then he tunnels on Vaimes for a while, which is NAI.
I kinda like his take on Sloth though, that despite his postcount, he is low content. I also had this though.
However, 429 is a weird post. He's interacting with someone he believes to be town, but the post goes from "my reads aren't strong, you might be paranoid" to a series of accusatory questions that I'm not sure are asked of a townread generally. Also of note here, I don't think scum!Rhand makes this post to scum!Eco. The progression from just answering Eco to "maybe you're paranoid" to "why you do scummy things" don't make sense in that context, nor from a logical progression perspective.
Yeh you're right, fluffing doesn't come natural to me. It was a very weird game start for me, which is why I couldn't get a grip.
With the "vote me" thing I wasn't expecting a bunch of naked votes to pop up. I was counting on actual reasons for me to look into. I got those later, not in the moment the wagon popped up.
I was in a big rush to get that post with the readslist finished.
429 was my townread of Eco wavering. I'm back to townreading him, but I had doubts at that point.
This is taking too much of my time. I’ve spent 3 hours now on reading / typing and I'm still 2 pages behind.
BBL. Need a big break.
Highroller - He hasn't done anything outside his normal play so far, and his content has been light (but not scummy light yet). I think I'm going for a light town read for #348 where he took a strawman swipe at me, who would be one of the players most likely to vote TerRaine with him. I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me. More content obviously desired though.
3) It's more because Highroller is going after TerRaine (who is my spicy scum pick) and implicitly defends me by contrast. And yes, he's validating my ego by scum-reading Jack. Do I actually think Highroller is town? Not really. But he's doing things that pocket me. I agree that switching to Jack immediately after KJ does looks suspicious.
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
2) Highroller would have been scum had he tried to pocket Eco. Highroller doing things that happen to pocket Eco makes Eco trust him more.
3) If anyone can find where in the first quote he townreads HR for his scumread on Ter, let me know.
3) You've been townreadingHighroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
That non-progression worded as progression is
HR continuing to do things that I previously wanted to town read him on makes me want to townread him more. I don't see what's wrong with that.
Yeah, no.
———
(If anyone can make sense of how fast Eco started tunnelling Jack I'm also interested.)
Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense.
Does that include the bit about his naked vote on Jackrito with no follow-up being a serious vote meant to ellicit a reaction in Jack?
More generally speaking, I personally find it hard to follow Eco's thought processes without having to repeatedly question him, and his explanations are clear (enough) but typically safe and NAI.
One sidenote: One thing that may point to a town HR is the "currently listening to" music blurbs. If it's not role related, it might point to a relaxed, carefree HR this game, but I'm not confident in that this early in the game.
I'm really flattered that you're giving me that much credit in terms of thought-process, but I just really love 80s music. I'm definitely actually listening to these songs as I write these posts.
Doubt I change my mind barring a big change in the last day, I should be around though if something does happen, and if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.
... So you're suddenly so confident it's Rhand that you don't believe you'll change your mind at all?
Yup. Believe it or not D1 usually contains a lot of mind changing throughout the phase as we townsfolk try to figure out what's what.
Yeah, but there's this thing called "rationale" that usually comes around with that, not making your way through your bingo board.
Who wants to bet that TerRaine won't make ten more posts without Ter's current vote changing? C'mon. Anyone want to pony up? It's just for fun, we know that's what's going to happen.
@Highroller: What do you normally look for in scum? What makes a scum for you?
Disingenuousness, reads that do not feel organic, blatant inconsistencies, stances and actions which appear to come from a desire to kill someone first and justfying second, as opposed to a person thinking someone is mafia based on reasons and then following that to a natural conclusion.
There was no progression. You just saw everyone was voting Rhand and proceeded to vote him. Now you're saying there's nothing that would make you unvote him, despite the fact that you're only voting him because other people are voting him.
There's not really been a progression with anything you've been doing. You described Igno as a "big red flag," yet you didn't vote him, instead voting me. When you saw that wasn't going to gain any traction, you backed off. Now, as people are criticizing me for not posting enough, you're starting to bring this whole, "You know, I'm really suspicious of Highroller" thing back.
not always my first choice clearly because I took issues with others more, and not went into full deep dive on Rhand until recently to assure it.
Ok, so right here, you say you didn't vote Rhand because you weren't sure until recently.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day.
That's... No, that's not what a hardread is.
You're saying, "I'm hardreading Rhand because that's where everyone else is voting." You're basically admitting here that you're voting Rhand and don't see yourself voting anyone else because you don't see the town voting anyone else, not because you yourself have any strong read on him. That's the logical opposite of a hardread.
Jack seems different in Prison Block. More open, more natural then this game.
Was he town or mafia in that game?
How do you think his behavior compares to his behavior in Snow White Mafia?
I'm loving how people just say I have no reason to vote Rhand even though I have a big post explaining my reasons before the vote, also being hinting at it most of the day. Yes my other town reads voting there play a small part, but that is how mafia should be played this is a team game not one you can win by yourself. This whole thing about me not changing my mind is weird to me also we are in the last day, I should be somewhat decided on my vote at the end of the day by now. If he role claimed though and I beleived it I would change. Nothing is stuck in stone my own post said as much if something big happens I change. The twisting of my words and actions is scummy tbh and has clear agenda.
This late push on me is not shocking though, it has being on the cards for a while. I was fully expecting it because it has being set in the mind of people by Eco and now I feel others are trying to take adv of it because I can be seen as a easy target and easy to mistrust like in Matter mafia where I got really mad about this happening. For the record though I see Eco as town still because their push on me was fair and consistant with actual own merits and belief not taking adv of a situation.
Looks like I’m in claim range.
I am Robocop, town gifter. I hand out a BP vest.
Could semi believe this I guess, not really the role I would expect robocop to have but not sure how much flavor matters. Intrested in others thoughts who are better aware of game design though.
I'm annoyed by Jacktrito only getting votes now after I've just publically doubted by scum read. Highroller I can understand because he's not been engaged in the game and does his own thing, but Killjoy voting there instead of Rhand (especially since he didn't even vote Rhand/anyone after his read wall in #561) strikes me as a cynical ploy to derail the Rhand wagon. That being said there is public progression, and KJ's tone/post volume looks like someone excited rather than tactical. Something I would look very hard at were Rhand to flip mafia.
Jackrito's read list in #563 is weird. Highroller's position in the town group is unexplained and contradicts the last position in #540 where he said "Still don't like Highroller thought his catch up was bad apart from the one point on Rhand. But like I said before leaving that battle for another day." - but HR is also somehow still in the PoE (#589)? And I can't see where the KJ town read comes from either (another appeasement read??). TerRaine is in the scum pool which I'm sure doesn't track with previous reads, and neither does Sloth sitting right at the bottom (Sloth town read in #451 and #540).
So yeah @Jackrito, I think the reads in #563 need a lot more explaining because they don't really track with his past reads, and his PoE given in #589 doesn't even really mesh with the #563 list.
Rhand's claim? Claim is decent - it's proveable and wouldn't necessarily make sense as a scum role. However, if he is scum I'm assuming he can give out more than just a BP vest (and things that he'd like to give his buddies), and it's not so strong a role that I would be upset losing it. So much more is hinging on his catch up and subsequent vote than the claim. @Rhand: Who do you want to give a vest to and why?
The reads in 563 were me posting Grape's from his iso to see if they match with his thoughts, they are in no way my own. I should of made that clearer that was my mistake and something I regret doing because it can lead to confusion.
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
This appears to be it.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
"Even though I have stronger scumreads on [HR] and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment" is kind of terrible on its own, and if I'm right on Eco&HR being woofwoof and Rhand being town then this is definitely a woofwoofwoof post: distancing from both buddies while working to get town kicked out.
———
Jack, if you are town, you need to work on how insanely easily articulate (scum) players can pocket you. First Prison Block 2, now this.
Jackrito is so town it hurts, unless he was bodysnatched between now and Snow White.
My vote is not leaving Rhand.
Does his claim not effect your view at all? It could just be a fake claim as a attempt to save himself of course, but want to know your thoughts on the claim as a whole.
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
This appears to be it.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
"Even though I have stronger scumreads on [HR] and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment" is kind of terrible on its own, and if I'm right on Eco&HR being woofwoof and Rhand being town then this is definitely a woofwoofwoof post: distancing from both buddies while working to get town kicked out.
———
Jack, if you are town, you need to work on how insanely easily articulate (scum) players can pocket you. First Prison Block 2, now this.
That is true and something I want to work on, the issue is when you come from a community where scum play is low quality and most of them give up. Also where most town are low effort its easy to be tricked by people who can make a good agrument, but hard to get out of bad habits. Its possible Lagoon goal this game is to pocket me based off his intial posts on me and the lack of doubt he has that I'm town. In nearly every other game he has being the main driving force on me being scum and always putting me in a corner the change here is unnerving. I still would like to see him as town though for now at least and review him as a whole tomorrow.
I'm not really sure why I'm being so supportive of Eco though a person who wanted me dead the whole game. I guess part of it is like I said before their push on me feels likes a overconfident town rather then a scum trying to make a agenda filled push. You bring up good points on their lack of consistency on HR spot though.
So, Killjoy is town. I feel fairly confident about that now.
Rhand’s claim is fine. But I can’t say it’s such that I wouldn’t vote him. I didn’t like the claim-and-then-leave aspect of it. I know he’s now made a follow up but I’ve only skimmed that.
I want to say that ZDS’s most recent on Eco is really good. That seems like a real flip in reasoning. It’s possible I’m missing something though. I’m on a phone again, so reading anything in depth is beyond me.
Similarly I haven’t followed Killjoys take on Jack, despite getting the strong feeling Killjoy is Town. I feel like it’s too late to do anything there even if there is something.
I think I’m Eco or Rhand or bust at this point.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Not sure I'll be on for EOD. I'll try to be on my phone but in the mean time I'll take Rhand's claim but with a grain of salt...
Can't teach an ol'***** new tricks it seems.
Unvote Axel
Vote Eco
ZDS's point of the flipping of reasoning on HR and the double speak of asking Rhand for his role target and then saying nooooo I don't want is target I just wanna know who it is. Gonna stick here.
ZDS is arguing that I’ve been priming myself to bus both of my buddies just to get one villager killed? So what, I can endgame? That is a terrible take. Not to mention that using Daylight to work on my weakest scumread is something I find more productive than sitting on Highroller or Ecophagy.
As for Rhand’s claim, it doesn’t really do anything from me.
ZDS's point of the flipping of reasoning on HR and the double speak of asking Rhand for his role target and then saying nooooo I don't want is target I just wanna know who it is. Gonna stick here.
Also correct.
My vote is staying where it is.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I only bus buddies when I struggle for content or when I think they look bad. I distanced from ZDS in PBII because he was very inactive Day 1, and then I flipped it to a townread once he dug his roots into the game.
TerRaine I don’t remember, I think I either gave her a bland townread or kept her at null.
ZDS’ hypothetical Lagoon/Ecophagy/Highroller team is bad because I don’t want to endgame, Ecophagy isn’t lurking or playing badly or under a ton of pressure, Highroller has been getting meta passes, and the only way I would believe ZDS believes it’s a viable team is if he just came out of a coma with total amnesia. A scumteam made of the three of us would sweep.
I mean I'm basically just asking him who he thinks is town and who he thinks the scum might kill. I don't want to know his target I want to know who he is considering. Unless you don't think it's important to know how someone is intending to use a role when evaluating a claim?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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Just because I'm scumreading someone I'm not going to ignore their posts because like I just said I can be wrong, it was a good point by HR one of the only ones I think he had. It bothers me how he has not done anything with it though and just stays on Ter.
On the first point I'm indifferent because that is early in the day, and nothing has happened and it got things moving like we all were. I don't think anyone should be seriously committed to a wagon that early, this game has a lot of moving parts and people. I semi agreed with ZDS yet again this is early in the day before Rhand did anything really wrong. He was on the lower end for me sure from memory but not done enough for me to commit to a full scum read,. The 2nd part of D is the reference to me going to do something from my Notes On Rhand which I did in 569.
I'm hard reading him over Igno and HR for compromise unless you want me to just sit on a wagon by myself end of day. HR and Igno also lack heavily in content so semi giving them both a pass for today to see if tomorrow brings better content. I can't get a execute on someone in this game by myself. So I'm going to go with the one who has the most scummy content which Rhand does compared to the other 2 and also the one who is least likely to succeed. Igno and HR are tunnels/ gut reads. Rhand is the one that comes with most damning evidence and also the one that my bigger town reads also agree with. So they are multiple factors that make them the right choice today for me.
Which is why I'm backing off for today, still have a gut read and a belief i'm right that is partly for ego purposes though. The sad fact is I have somehow got way too many town reads atm which I need to review like I said earlier, hopefully this flip can help me figure out if I'm on the right path or just plain wrong.
The problem is none of those posts before 569 hint that 569 exists in your head. 569 just comes out of nowhere.
If you want to vote the then do. If you think HR or Igno is scum make that case.
A lot of us have Igno pretty low on our lists. Idk why you'd "compromise" before trying to yeet them.
Vote Jackarito
I would say ZDS comment does because the game has moved to a different stage you can't judge early day 1 compared to later day 1. Later will always have more weight because people will always have more content so easier to see issues in their thoughts.
That is because 569 is the combo of all my notes put together which I can only do on my laptop and it was something I was doing on off during day one, working through person by person. Rhand was always near the bottom I just did not have all my stuff together yet, and reading others points on him only moved him down in the meantime.
I made my cases on both to a lesser degree, but like I said less content to judge them on and less support. So better to give them another day for now, I'm not confident enough like Axel or Eco to push something so heavily by myself not in my personality espically on day one. They are rare exceptions but I'm a passive support type player rather then a hard solo pusher.
Rhand has more scum equity and done enough to be judged off fully is the answer to your last point. Igno is just a sheep who offers no new views which some players can be like and they are the type I always misskill. So giving him time to see if he improves if not I go there tomorrow like I said multi times today.
This only became gymnastics because you have put everything under the microscope, and because my playstyle involves me doing things in a roundabout way at times. It is not like Rhand suddenly appeared in my POE suddenly.
You got to help me. I don't know what to do. I can't make decisions. I'm a president!
Rhand (5): Slothful, Ecophagy, gooLagoon, Grapefruit21, Jackrito
Ecophagy (2): Axelrod, ZeDorkSlipeur
Axelrod (1): TerRaine
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Jackrito (1): Killjoy
Not Voting (1): ignoramus
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eject!
Day 1 deadline is Saturday, February 6th, at 2:00pm MST
Please inform me if there are any errors in votecounts.
Additionally, if you have a question for me, the most consistent way to quickly get my attention is to ping me on Discord.
I want Rhand to roleclaim.
I'm really flattered that you're giving me that much credit in terms of thought-process, but I just really love 80s music. I'm definitely actually listening to these songs as I write these posts.
... So you're suddenly so confident it's Rhand that you don't believe you'll change your mind at all?
Yeah, but there's this thing called "rationale" that usually comes around with that, not making your way through your bingo board.
Who wants to bet that TerRaine won't make ten more posts without Ter's current vote changing? C'mon. Anyone want to pony up? It's just for fun, we know that's what's going to happen.
Disingenuousness, reads that do not feel organic, blatant inconsistencies, stances and actions which appear to come from a desire to kill someone first and justfying second, as opposed to a person thinking someone is mafia based on reasons and then following that to a natural conclusion.
That, and mechanics and role analysis, of course.
There was no progression. You just saw everyone was voting Rhand and proceeded to vote him. Now you're saying there's nothing that would make you unvote him, despite the fact that you're only voting him because other people are voting him.
There's not really been a progression with anything you've been doing. You described Igno as a "big red flag," yet you didn't vote him, instead voting me. When you saw that wasn't going to gain any traction, you backed off. Now, as people are criticizing me for not posting enough, you're starting to bring this whole, "You know, I'm really suspicious of Highroller" thing back.
Ok, so right here, you say you didn't vote Rhand because you weren't sure until recently.
Yet, right afterward you say,
That's... No, that's not what a hardread is.
You're saying, "I'm hardreading Rhand because that's where everyone else is voting." You're basically admitting here that you're voting Rhand and don't see yourself voting anyone else because you don't see the town voting anyone else, not because you yourself have any strong read on him. That's the logical opposite of a hardread.
Vote: Jackrito.
Was he town or mafia in that game?
How do you think his behavior compares to his behavior in Snow White Mafia?
I am Robocop, town gifter. I hand out a BP vest.
And I'd say he's closer to snow White by far, but Snow White has 13 posts.
Actually can I get a full post about who's scum and why? You only have a quick worldview before.
I still have to catch up, will do so today.
Yeah please do.
I definitely remember Rhand, but a quick skim looks like that was it. But, uh, now Jack's got two votes from HR and KJ. So I might have to put some money where my mouth is.
You should read Secret Agent mafia where I got some mope called Vaimes voted off to win the game.
Ah, memories.
Hey Killyjoy, can you please not do this?
You're such a... Fun ruiner. I bet there's a note concise word for that.
Anything in particular?
I'm annoyed by Jacktrito only getting votes now after I've just publically doubted by scum read. Highroller I can understand because he's not been engaged in the game and does his own thing, but Killjoy voting there instead of Rhand (especially since he didn't even vote Rhand/anyone after his read wall in #561) strikes me as a cynical ploy to derail the Rhand wagon. That being said there is public progression, and KJ's tone/post volume looks like someone excited rather than tactical. Something I would look very hard at were Rhand to flip mafia.
Jackrito's read list in #563 is weird. Highroller's position in the town group is unexplained and contradicts the last position in #540 where he said "Still don't like Highroller thought his catch up was bad apart from the one point on Rhand. But like I said before leaving that battle for another day." - but HR is also somehow still in the PoE (#589)? And I can't see where the KJ town read comes from either (another appeasement read??). TerRaine is in the scum pool which I'm sure doesn't track with previous reads, and neither does Sloth sitting right at the bottom (Sloth town read in #451 and #540).
So yeah @Jackrito, I think the reads in #563 need a lot more explaining because they don't really track with his past reads, and his PoE given in #589 doesn't even really mesh with the #563 list.
Rhand's claim? Claim is decent - it's proveable and wouldn't necessarily make sense as a scum role. However, if he is scum I'm assuming he can give out more than just a BP vest (and things that he'd like to give his buddies), and it's not so strong a role that I would be upset losing it. So much more is hinging on his catch up and subsequent vote than the claim.
@Rhand: Who do you want to give a vest to and why?
• All who give Eco a pass because he is rational and his thought processes are easy to follow need to stop doing that and drop him to at most null. These are player-quality tells, they say nothing about a player's alignment and only tell you they are competent.
To put it another way, do you expect Eco to be either rational and collected as town, or a flailing imbecile as scum? Give me a break.
I don't claim to be right beyond any doubt about Eco, but at least try to read him past the NAI stuff.
• Highroller takes lots of strong stances but he barely justifies them (or he handwaves them as "feels") and he does not do much more than state them and move on (if given the chance). In other words, reads instead of content.
The fact he had to be told to "come at [Ter]" is extremely atypical for him, a more usual reaction is "leave me alooooone". Here the paragraph on Ter is basically tacked on at the end of #570 so we don't forget he is/was scumreading her.
The switch to Jackrito is... eh. The rationale behind it is fine on the surface, however AFAICT HR is/was scumleaning on Rhand and it doesn't make a lot of sense to scumread Jack in this situation unless expecting Rhand to flip town. The timing of it is suspicious as well, right after KJ interrogated Jack.
• The nonsensicalness of scumreading Jack for (essentially) wagonning against Rhand while also scumreading Rhand also applies to Killjoy — especially since the argument is not that Jack could be bussing, but that he is being opportunistic.
• All in all I tend to agree with Jack's #564, the rising momentum against him has all the signs of prepping the scapegoat for the ritual sacrifice. I still need to figure out if that momentum is being created by scum or by useful idiots.
I'll need to check but IIRC you don't spend more time asking others about their opinions on Igno than actually interacting with Igno themself.
1) Could you reiterate where does that read came from initially? You had a clearly biased, already-stuck-in-the-tunnel interpretation of his first content post, and I can't see anything bad with his previous (RVS) posts.
2) His recent posts have been decent, I would be more offended if you doubled down. I'm surprised with the complete reversal, but it's hard to interpret it right now.
3) Why? Is it because he is scumreading Jack, who you used to scumread, then townread, then [???]?
4) Where is your mouth anyway?
(BTW, it's confusing but Jack's TSlist in 563 is a repeat of Grape's list in #450, similar to that time Rhand copied Jack's list.)
1) The initial read came from a) a dislike of his inital content (the qualifier on the vote and overexplanation on being caught in a previous game) and b) a dislike of his first read list. I think I've gone over those to death, but if there's anything specific I can try and re-explain.
2) It's not a complete reversal, but maybe more because of read stickiness than for any concrete reason.
3) It's more because Highroller is going after TerRaine (who is my spicy scum pick) and implicitly defends me by contrast. And yes, he's validating my ego by scum-reading Jack. Do I actually think Highroller is town? Not really. But he's doing things that pocket me. I agree that switching to Jack immediately after KJ does looks suspicious.
4) I was going to say "prepared to vote Jack if we like Rhand's claim", but since you pointed out I'm an idiot I'm not so sure. Jackrito's flip would help me orient the game, but I'm not going to actively move there unless the wagon looks better or Rhand comes out very strong. I would say I would vote Jackrito over Axelrod.
2 & 4)
3) You've been townreading Highroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
That non-progression worded as progression is
....uhhh nope. Not a question Town wants answered.
———
Axel's ISO: Inconclusive. He mostly keeps his thoughts to himself except when dumping an overanalysis or that time he went "oh yeah me too I have the same reads". GTMH he's town, more because that's the statistically safer bet than because he's done anything particularly AI.
Highroller's ISO: Not enough material to notice any big picture yet, and he could be having trouble getting started after the intensity of Realm of the Elderlings. As for what is there, he comments on a lot of stuff but mostly stays superficial. I would say he's scum but that's mostly because of bias, if I try to stay objective he's somewhere between null and meh. GTMH, shoot me.
(On the other hand if I'm right on Eco being scum, HR is strongly +scum because of Eco's spew)
I don't have anything so deep as Axelrod here. It's just a very wordy and insecure response to a tongue-in-cheek question. Saying both "I was well off my game when I was playing back then. So hoping this attempt goes a lot better" and "Not sure when I ever scum slipped though" just came across as a bit "look at me I'm town this time" but also defensively denying scum-slipping as a pre-emptive move against being accused of it again this game.
HR continuing to do things that I previously wanted to town read him on makes me want to townread him more. I don't see what's wrong with that.
I mean I'm basically just asking him who he thinks is town and who he thinks the scum might kill. I don't want to know his target I want to know who he is considering. Unless you don't think it's important to know how someone is intending to use a role when evaluating a claim?
My vote is not leaving Rhand.
Sloth’s low impact can easily mean his team is not in trouble and he doesn’t need to be a driving force. It’s a weak townclear, but I do get where it comes from.
Your HR read doesn’t make him town. It makes him NAI. Why isn’t he not in the list of “people you don’t see as town”?
It’s strange that you say “someone” here. Doesn’t it matter to you who makes a meta read for you to believe the meta read?
I would argue that looking into why people vote you is objective, but fair I guess.
I had no strong reads when I made that list.
Goo was lower on my scum leans than Axel for a reason. But Axel’s post was scummy enough not to put him in the nulls and Goo wasn’t scummy enough to make him a category lower than leans.
The fuss about it: I have no idea how to avoid that. Goo kept pusing on it. And after all that, apparently you still think it worth asking for clarification, so you want even more fuss about it?
You question my town read on Eco? Where is your question?
Aren’t you voting me because you agree with Eco’s view?
This is the second time you say you’re going to talk about me but you don’t. Are you avoiding confrontation with me?
HR has a very wide scope in #490. That’s very different from his tunnel in the game that just finished.
@HR do you have a game where you were mafia that you can link?
This post is all kinds of terrible. She doesn’t scumread me here, she wants an info lynch.
Eco sees it too. That’s good.
Oh here is that vote. I’m not the only one townreading Eco though. Why would this apply to me and not anyone else that calls Eco town?
Sloth has popped in several times now and still hasn’t explained his vote. @Sloth explain your vote?
Finally, Axel’s reaction.
How is this not something you post immediately when you see my post and think these things?
I have a big issue with your big issue: you’re defending Vaimes for expressing opinions that are stronger than they should be while attacking me for expressing opinions that are stronger than they should be. My push on Vaimes was harder than my opinion on Vaimes yes. Soft pushes don’t lead anywhere. My reads on Eco and KJ weren’t very solid, they were town leans, not town clears.
This whole post shows that you have decided to use different scales for what is ok for Vaimes and what is ok for me.
On Vaimes, you say:
* Jack’s post was decent but not clearing, but it’s ok for Vaimes to clear Jack over it.
* It’s ok for Vaimes to vote his 3rd strongest scumread
On me you say:
* It’s not ok to make the “townread” issue bigger than it should be
* It’s not ok to townlean KJ because he’s in his normal meta
I don’t know if it’s confirmation bias or if you’re mafia adding to the anti-Rhand sentiment in thread, but you went into this with the decision you were going to paint a scummy picture.
Doesn't it bother you that there is little to no pushback on my wagon? How often have you seen unopposed Day 1 wagons land on town?
That "point" HR made was refuted. Did you really miss that?
Yeh you're right, fluffing doesn't come natural to me. It was a very weird game start for me, which is why I couldn't get a grip.
With the "vote me" thing I wasn't expecting a bunch of naked votes to pop up. I was counting on actual reasons for me to look into. I got those later, not in the moment the wagon popped up.
I was in a big rush to get that post with the readslist finished.
429 was my townread of Eco wavering. I'm back to townreading him, but I had doubts at that point.
This is taking too much of my time. I’ve spent 3 hours now on reading / typing and I'm still 2 pages behind.
BBL. Need a big break.
Case in point:
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
2) Highroller would have been scum had he tried to pocket Eco. Highroller doing things that happen to pocket Eco makes Eco trust him more.
3) If anyone can find where in the first quote he townreads HR for his scumread on Ter, let me know.
Yeah, no.
———
(If anyone can make sense of how fast Eco started tunnelling Jack I'm also interested.)
@Rhand: More generally speaking, I personally find it hard to follow Eco's thought processes without having to repeatedly question him, and his explanations are clear (enough) but typically safe and NAI.
I'm loving how people just say I have no reason to vote Rhand even though I have a big post explaining my reasons before the vote, also being hinting at it most of the day. Yes my other town reads voting there play a small part, but that is how mafia should be played this is a team game not one you can win by yourself. This whole thing about me not changing my mind is weird to me also we are in the last day, I should be somewhat decided on my vote at the end of the day by now. If he role claimed though and I beleived it I would change. Nothing is stuck in stone my own post said as much if something big happens I change. The twisting of my words and actions is scummy tbh and has clear agenda.
This late push on me is not shocking though, it has being on the cards for a while. I was fully expecting it because it has being set in the mind of people by Eco and now I feel others are trying to take adv of it because I can be seen as a easy target and easy to mistrust like in Matter mafia where I got really mad about this happening. For the record though I see Eco as town still because their push on me was fair and consistant with actual own merits and belief not taking adv of a situation.
Could semi believe this I guess, not really the role I would expect robocop to have but not sure how much flavor matters. Intrested in others thoughts who are better aware of game design though.
The reads in 563 were me posting Grape's from his iso to see if they match with his thoughts, they are in no way my own. I should of made that clearer that was my mistake and something I regret doing because it can lead to confusion.
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Jack, if you are town, you need to work on how insanely easily articulate (scum) players can pocket you. First Prison Block 2, now this. "Even though I have stronger scumreads on [HR] and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment" is kind of terrible on its own, and if I'm right on Eco&HR being woofwoof and Rhand being town then this is definitely a woofwoofwoof post: distancing from both buddies while working to get town kicked out.
Does his claim not effect your view at all? It could just be a fake claim as a attempt to save himself of course, but want to know your thoughts on the claim as a whole.
That is true and something I want to work on, the issue is when you come from a community where scum play is low quality and most of them give up. Also where most town are low effort its easy to be tricked by people who can make a good agrument, but hard to get out of bad habits. Its possible Lagoon goal this game is to pocket me based off his intial posts on me and the lack of doubt he has that I'm town. In nearly every other game he has being the main driving force on me being scum and always putting me in a corner the change here is unnerving. I still would like to see him as town though for now at least and review him as a whole tomorrow.
I'm not really sure why I'm being so supportive of Eco though a person who wanted me dead the whole game. I guess part of it is like I said before their push on me feels likes a overconfident town rather then a scum trying to make a agenda filled push. You bring up good points on their lack of consistency on HR spot though.
Rhand’s claim is fine. But I can’t say it’s such that I wouldn’t vote him. I didn’t like the claim-and-then-leave aspect of it. I know he’s now made a follow up but I’ve only skimmed that.
I want to say that ZDS’s most recent on Eco is really good. That seems like a real flip in reasoning. It’s possible I’m missing something though. I’m on a phone again, so reading anything in depth is beyond me.
Similarly I haven’t followed Killjoys take on Jack, despite getting the strong feeling Killjoy is Town. I feel like it’s too late to do anything there even if there is something.
I think I’m Eco or Rhand or bust at this point.
.....uh....seriously?
An yeaaaaa to Eco...no I don't want Rhand giving scum a list of people not to waste their NK on cause frankly I'd like them to WASTE a nk.
Can't teach an ol'***** new tricks it seems.
Unvote Axel
Vote Eco
ZDS's point of the flipping of reasoning on HR and the double speak of asking Rhand for his role target and then saying nooooo I don't want is target I just wanna know who it is. Gonna stick here.
As for Rhand’s claim, it doesn’t really do anything from me.
My vote is staying where it is.
TerRaine I don’t remember, I think I either gave her a bland townread or kept her at null.
ZDS’ hypothetical Lagoon/Ecophagy/Highroller team is bad because I don’t want to endgame, Ecophagy isn’t lurking or playing badly or under a ton of pressure, Highroller has been getting meta passes, and the only way I would believe ZDS believes it’s a viable team is if he just came out of a coma with total amnesia. A scumteam made of the three of us would sweep.