He expressed mild to zero suspicion on Rhand and was voting elsewhere until the last minute, but did get there at the end when arguably, he did not have to and could have tried for a No Lynch. Perhaps significantly, there is nothing here I feel he couldn't have done as scum.
To the bolded, he was at L-2 and you and I were saying we were going to switch to avoid a no lynch. I'm not sure he had a choice.
Well, notice I am not convincing myself he is Town here. I agree that what actually happened is that HR saw it coming and decided to get on the right side of History. But I was looking at alternate views, and scum-HR certainly could have done it differently.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Maybe just - if there is a Townie here who is a violent R-rated movie - please raise your hand.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Sloth @159. Completely unexplained. Very early and never removed. Not pushed or argued strongly for. Today Sloth has told us he has a secret Rhand tell, but does not care to share so he can use it in future games. This could even be true, but I can't see how Sloth realistically believes anyone should Town-read him for it. This is the kind of vote a scum-buddy could easily make. In his favor, there were certainly opportunities for him, as scum, to leave the wagon in favor of greener pastures, and he didn't avail himself of any of those opportunities.
Rhand himself starts his own wagon proper by basically inviting votes on himself at #234. He gets very quick votes from (1) Killjoy - 235, (2) TerRaine - 236, and (3) Vaimes - 239. Not sure quite what to make of those, but I do feel it's a decent look for all three of them. The votes don't stick, of course, but it's somewhat interesting to me that they were all still there when HR came back at #237, voted for TerRaine, and criticized the "Eco Wagon" which consisted of 2 votes, as opposed to Rhand's 4. Didn't say anything about that.
Killjoy unvotes because it wasn't a serious vote to begin with, and TerRaine move over to Eco. Now Eco actually has more votes than Rhand, 3-2, as of #363. Then I jump on the Eco wagon at #376, giving him 4 votes to Rhand's 2. This, it would seem, would be an opportune time for scum to act, assuming they all weren't already.
So maybe I should give Grapefruit more props for #380 where he unvotes Eco and votes Rhand. That puts them both on 3, and could be viewed as something of a momentum killer for the Eco. wagon. Of course, GF is (apparently) voting based at least in part on a mis-read of a Rhand post, and when he realizes this he immediately unvotes. Then says he doesn't want to vote Eco or Rhand. I still want to say that interaction seems less likely from a scum-buddy.
Then Vaimes switches from Rhand to Eco at #404, pushing the momentum back that way, if you will. Now it's 4-1 Eco. vs. Rhand. I don't have too many issues with this switch from Vaimes here, as he's saying he just doesn't think he can get the momentum for the votes on Rhand at this point, and there isn't too much that should have made him feel otherwise. Plus, Eco was already one of his suspects. Vaimes continues to prod at Rhand though, in a Townie way. All of which leads up to the:
I'm breaking up these posts for ease of reading, I think.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
HR is probably scum but my ego doesn't want to admit it so I'm going to stay camped out on ZDS for now.
@ZDS yes you had voted Eco earlier, doesn't change the fact that your posts at the end of day read like an effort to keep Rhand alive moreso than an effort to kill Eco. I'm just probably wrong about everything though. But that's okay because I don't think everyone else is.
Grapefruit at #519. This is not a bad look either. It does re-solidify the Rhand-wagon which had previously petered out. Rhand is now the clear leader. Had Grape not completely disappeared for the remainder of the day it would look a lot better.
ZDS comes back at #538 and (re)votes Eco., which kind of makes Eco a legit counter-wagon to Rhand. And I mean, yeah, it could be an attempt to save his scum-buddy, but if that's what it is, it's pretty good. I'm biased since I was already voting Eco. I think the Rhand-Eco count is 4-2 now. Jack, maybe notably, does not hop this counter-wagon. I state I would move to Rhand at #559.
I guess #561 is interesting from Killjoy, in as much as he makes a real big post with lots of reads and comes down pretty firmly with Rhand-scum. But does not vote Rhand. I think he was voting for Sloth, and stayed voting Sloth here, despite having Rhand more scummy and the deadline coming up. I don't know if he's ever talked about that. Have you, Killjoy?
Jack then makes his big post about Rhand at #569, before placing the
at #574. I've already said I think this is a good look for Jack and I still think that. Killjoy didn't think so, however, and proceeded to vote for Jack. He seemed to think Jack's progression on Rhand didn't feel right. Ugh. I still want to trust my Killjoy read, but I will acknowledge this part doesn't look so great. It's not that Killjoy is retracting his scum-Rhand lean, but he apparently thinks this is stronger. He does have a bit of back and forth with Jack before placing the vote, so it doesn't come totally out of nowhere.
Rhand is now at 5 with Eco at 2.
And I have to go get some dinner. I might or might not finish this tonight.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Nothing for me has changed Alex and Lagoon have pretty much said everything that needs to be said about how HR reaction to being cop checked, and his actions are in no way, ZDS also said it pretty well in 924 this is possibily just bussing, but I still feel he is town here if he wanted to save Rhand yesterday he could easily of just went onto me, but instead he gave me a hard defense which I found a bit unnerving. I know he likes to pocket me as scum but I don't think he gives up a teammate to do so. I also think his play has being pretty town and matchs more with my other games with him then prison.
Not feeling as great about Sloth today though how fast he wants today to end feels like an attempt to make anti spew. I also don't like how much town rep he is trying to get off the Rhand execute when he was barely here. That being said I do agree with his push on KJ his push on me yesterday bothers me a lot because it came out of nowhere and especially with the timing of it. I think he was really expecting it to get more traction and save Rhand, his play was very middle of the field before that. Grape would also go in my scum pile to a lesser degree, not because he has being really bad this game more that I town read others way more then him. I only go there if game not over after Sloth and KJ which it likely will be.
Ter for me still feels town I find their play yesterday really towny and if we think HR is scum here which seems pretty likely I don't think he would go at her that way and for most of the day.
Not even going to try and figure out why Eco is dead today that makes little sense and not worth thinking about Igno makes more sense if it was a town who shot them because it saved us wasteing a day on a miskill which was going to happen. I know HR claimed it was him who shot Igno, but I think we all agree his play makes no sense off his scumreads and his reasons given make less so.
Just to make it clear my reads in order are
Lagoon
Axel
ter
ZDs
Grape
Kj
Sloth
They is no rush in ending today though so we can give ZDS time to post again since a lot of you doubt him.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Since you bring it up there WAS a strategic benefit to killing igno if you believed Vaimes' cop claim.
So Mafia-Highroller, with a 100%-guaranteed nightkill, decided to use it on Igno because he believed Vaimes was cop and that would provide a strategic advantage? That’s your argument?
So, let’s follow this logic with me now. You’re arguing that I’m mafia-Highroller, I have a night kill that cannot miss, and I believe goo is the cop… and I kill IGNO for all of the strategic benefit he provides?
Why would I not kill Vaimes?
Don’t you think that would provide more strategic advantage?!
On top of that, TerRaine’s attacks on Ecophagy were just obviously bad, and were subsequently followed by TerRaine jumping around so many times in voting people yesterday that it’s like a damn drinking game. TerRaine did at one point vote Rhand, but only when Rhand told everyone to vote for him as a joke.
Then he does go on to have have a few more things to say about Rhand, though he misreads Rhand's post where Rhand is quoting Jack's reads as if they were Rhand's own reads. Rhand is now in his "bottom four," along with Ter, Jack, and Me. Maybe notably, Rhand (and me) are in the "Bronze" positions here, so, relatively safe places to put a scum-buddy.
Says the guy who didn't vote Rhand.
Rhand claims, and HR's reaction is to ask if this is a normal role for a 12 person game on this site? I get that HR was away from Mafia for a long time, but he was one of the OG players here, so that ask just seems weird to me.
See, you were doing really well up until this point, and I considered dropping you to a null read, but then you posted this.
I am an OG player in the sense that I hosted the first mafia game on MTGNews, the parent site for MTGSalvation, and played there for a long time. Up until Banned Mafia, which was 2018, I'd played one game on MTGSalvation, which was Mafia: Dominaria Style Seventh Edition, which was in 2005, and I was hosting. To bring up my being an OG and implying this means I should understand the meta here is incredibly misleading because I didn't play a single game on this site for those 13 years in-between.
And the fact is, the metagame here is drastically different from MTGNews. I don't know how much of that is MTGSalvation versus how much of that is just the natural byproduct of over 15 years passing and the fact that no game stays the same for that long a time, but it is drastically different. Things like Vaimes doing this dance with his cop claim, or to go with what happened in Realm of the Elderlings mafia, a third-party role that could win the game without ending the game, just didn't happen.
What truly bothers me about this? You should be well-aware of this because you were on MTGNews and you have actually been here during that interim, and even remarked when I played Banned Mafia of how long it's been since I've been on this forum. So you know damn well that I wouldn't know how the metagame's changed. Not to mention not a game goes by without someone remarking how weird I am for my views on mafia and how contrary they are to what is considered "normal" on this forum. You should know better.
This is a reasonable position to take, and it would look better, but for the fact that Killjoy and myself were right there, so the chances of it going No Lynch were less.
Honestly, I feel like the person who made that Lynch happen was Jack. Eco. and Rhand were pretty neck and neck in the last 90 minutes of the day. His switch to Rhand made Rhand the default choice. He doesn't do that, maybe we don't get a lynch at all.
These two statements are completely contradictory.
Town-you is just folding like a house of cards in the face of this completely wrong alleged Cop result? You're not even going to try and fight it? You just said you were (supposedly) contemplating re-direction scenarios, and the Mod. did NOT rule them out, but you're not going to argue for that? Just going to roll over and die.
This has been posted multiple times by people and it confuses the absolute hell out of me.
First of all, it would really seem to me that fighting would be the mafia play. A mafia has something to lose.
Whereas if I'm town? **** it. I'm a vig with no nightkill attempt left. I'm literally the most expendable role in the game.
I also don't understand the flipside of this argument. Suppose I'm town. Is it a reasonable expectation to think the town is not going to vote a guy whom a claimed cop who has not been counterclaimed said is mafia? No. There is no reasonable expectation in which that would happen. So why kick and scream about it? I would vote me in that situation.
Whereas, as caught scum, it does make some sense. You're burned, you know you're not likely getting out of it. No point in wasting more words and potentially giving away more info. Of the two scenarios, that one seems much more consistent.
I think Realm of the Elderlings pointed out that my recognizing that I'm ****ed and not bothering with a prolonged fight over it is, at worst, NAI.
Nothing for me has changed Alex and Lagoon have pretty much said everything that needs to be said about how HR reaction to being cop checked, and his actions are in no way, ZDS also said it pretty well in 924 this is possibily just bussing, but I still feel he is town here if he wanted to save Rhand yesterday he could easily of just went onto me, but instead he gave me a hard defense which I found a bit unnerving. I know he likes to pocket me as scum but I don't think he gives up a teammate to do so. I also think his play has being pretty town and matchs more with my other games with him then prison.
Yeah, Jackrito’s mafia.
Mafia Jackrito plays follow-the-leader, and lo and behold, that’s precisely what he’s doing right now. This is exactly his play during Snow White Mafia, a game in which he basically said, “I think we should do what Vaimes said we should do because I agree with what Vaimes said.” He at least managed to make it slightly subtler during day one, but he’s just doing it just as transparently right now.
1. Axelrod - Mafia read. He'll post things that are just blatantly wrong in ways he should know better.
2. gooLagoon - Ok, I know I’m notoriously bad at reading Vaimes, but I’m pretty positive he’s town. I have no idea what he’s doing, I’m still not even necessarily sure he’s actually claiming cop or not, but “I have no idea what the **** Vaimes is doing with his trololol antics” seems to me to be Vaimes’ town meta. To add to that, Vaimes has not been counterclaimed, so there’s no way I’m voting for a non-counterclaimed cop today. We can hash out whatever tomorrow because apparently Day 3 is Designated Mass Claim Day on this site.
3. Grapefruit21 - Null read. Grape hasn’t really pinged me one way or another. I will say that Grapefruit isn’t hedging nearly as much as he normally does. Really, Grape’s just a player I’ve long ago given up being able to read.
5. Jackrito - Mafia read. He's playing exactly like he did in Snow White Mafia, in which he was mafia.
6. Killjoy - Light town read. Killjoy is behaving exactly like he did in Realm of the Elderlings mafia. I actually do not understand what the case is against him.
7. Slothful - Sloth is not being a gaslighting jackass and is posting things that remotely make sense. He’s town.
8. TerRaine - Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind TerRaine is open-wolfing.
9. ZeDorkSlipeur - Null read. ZDS is posting absolutely abysmal arguments and that’s exactly what he did during Shoushiling - or however the hell it’s spelled - in which he was town. However, he’s also not being anywhere near as aggressive. Might be suspicious, but it might also just be him improving. Really, the things that keep me at null for him are his not posting enough, and the fact that I’m really not familiar with ZDS’s mafia meta.
Yes. If you are mafia who thinks goo is a cop and will be targeting igno then igno is the better kill.
If you kill vaimes...then you have one dead town with a power role that is wasted. Vaimes is dead and isn't around to clear Igno and Igno continues on and would have to up his play given his null/uncertain status in D1.
If you kill igno...then you have one dead town with a power role that is wasted AND one live Town with a power role which is wasted. Killing igno not only get's rid of a town but it makes the other useless role wise. Vaimes would get a green check on a flipped green player AND a decent mafia player can just turn it around and cast doubt on vaime's claim as convenient for hiding mafia
In the grand scheme of things getting rid of 1 town and 2 roles is better than getting rid of 1 town and 1 role.
Not open wolfing. Just using the one of two wrinkles on this smooth smooth brain to think with.
Yes. If you are mafia who thinks goo is a cop and will be targeting igno then igno is the better kill.
If you kill vaimes...then you have one dead town with a power role that is wasted. Vaimes is dead and isn't around to clear Igno and Igno continues on and would have to up his play given his null/uncertain status in D1.
If you kill igno...then you have one dead town with a power role that is wasted AND one live Town with a power role which is wasted. Killing igno not only get's rid of a town but it makes the other useless role wise. Vaimes would get a green check on a flipped green player AND a decent mafia player can just turn it around and cast doubt on vaime's claim as convenient for hiding mafia
This is the single most ridiculous argument you've made all game and it's a game in which you've made nothing but bad arguments.
If the mafia has an uncounterable nightkill, their target would logically be the claimed cop, the primary threat to them and the guy who is likely to be the target of protection roles.
It would make absolutely no sense to target Igno, who was both a lurker and a target of town suspicion and would be a potential cop/vig/misyeet target and best left alive for that reason.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
• I'm Ferris Bueller's Day Off (and I'll be amazed if scum, or anyone, can guess my role from that).
• Exclusive insight from an Eco-wagon insider:
The Eco wagon sucked in terms of momentum. It was arguably the first wagon, depending on if you count Ter's early interrogating of Eco as her voting-in-spirit, and yet it barely ever got past the background-noise level. At the end of the Day, the choice wasn't between Rhand and Eco. Pragmatically speaking, it was between Rhand and no one.
There is evidence of scum dismissing the wagon very early. By "evidence" I mean confirmed-scum Rhand and soon-to-be-confirmed-scum Highroller both townreading / defending Ecophagy. That's two out of three, and it is not a stretch to hypothetise scum #3 also did not want to have anything to do with it. Or if s/he did, s/he had no expectation of the wagon going anywhere.
On the other hand, the same "evidence" (Rhand and HR) points to the sudden Jackrito wagon as an attempt to save Rhand. Not to say it was necessarily created with that intent, but this is what it became (before fizzling out).
Therefore it is very dangerous to look for who could be scum in the Eco wagon, when chances are the scum were completely uninvolved. In this situation it is better to be open-minded (not like me sometimes).
• IMO the ridiculousness of Sloth wanting credit for the Rhand flush is a point in Sloth's favour. I assume scum-Sloth would have solid arguments why Rhand's death makes him town, not a weird mix of ego-centrism and self-unawareness.
• Highroller posted content! It's mostly posturing but it is content! HR, out of your three scumreads, which two do you think are scum?
• Re "who did the mafia kill", are we forgetting Igno was a bodyguard?
Three players stuck to the Eco wagon to the bitter end: good old me, and Ter and Axel.
Well, in fairness to me, Highroller beat me to the hammer by literally two seconds. And I already said I would move the vote. I was not "sticking on Eco." until the bitter end.
Pressure vote. I am willing to vote either of them. I prefer HR actually but I didn't want to push him into hammer territory before everyone showed and had their say.
Did the pressure work? Did your naked vote result in anything interesting?
Yeah ZDS I am trying to figure you out. I was hoping for more than just two players though, like a whole worldview post because at the moment your reads could go any way they felt like.
My reads are in constant motion, although due to tunneling / confbias I tend to return where I came from. But sometimes I don't and I completely reverse my stances, which is always fun and exciting! But anyway, like I said before I haven't done any serious rereading yet.
(I think I answered your other question above, otherwise ask me again in a clearer way)
@ZDS yes you had voted Eco earlier, doesn't change the fact that your posts at the end of day read like an effort to keep Rhand alive moreso than an effort to kill Eco. I'm just probably wrong about everything though. But that's okay because I don't think everyone else is.
My order of preference was 1) ejecting Eco, 2) ejecting no one, 3) ejecting Rhand. Ejecting Eco didn't look like it was going to happen, so I was getting ready for the no-ejection.
So... your interpretation is correct, although I had no ill will and was only completely fooled by Rhand's brand new strategy (playing like a clueless newb).
Yeah ZDS I am trying to figure you out. I was hoping for more than just two players though, like a whole worldview post because at the moment your reads could go any way they felt like.
My reads are in constant motion, although due to tunneling / confbias I tend to return where I came from. But sometimes I don't and I completely reverse my stances, which is always fun and exciting! But anyway, like I said before I haven't done any serious rereading yet.
(I think I answered your other question above, otherwise ask me again in a clearer way)
Thus is the crux of my problem with your slot, ZDS. Your reads COULD go anywhere, which is a place scum like to be in and town generally don't naturally arrive in. It's a thousand posts in and you don't have any hard stances.
Are you willing to commit to a read anywhere at all? You've made arguments for where scum can't be, so where ARE they?
Re:who did the nightkill: We've discussed this to death, I think I've personally exhausted all options here. And HR claimed Strongman, so he would bypass Igno anyway.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Rhand:
Rhand starts off the game fluffing, like the rest of us do, though that's unusual for him I think... enough so that it's worth commenting on but not enough to assign as alignment telling. I still dislike that he decided to complain and flail instead of trying to do anything. I'm specifically against the fact that the one thing he DOES do to drum up content (asking us to vote him) he doesn't even analyze. I can't see Rhand asking us to vote him without a plan to analyze afterward.
I believe that he didn't grasp the subtle context of 'townread vs. read' regardless of alignment. The timing of it might be suspect as he was under pressure to have reads, but for now I'm gonna throw that in the NAI category
His reads list in 346 doesn't mention any of his nulls, nor Grape, nor Terraine. He later says that Grape is a 'total gut read' when Grape asks him. I get that he was rushing, but wouldn't he logically have said that after he said me and Eco were town in his list?I guess that's not super telling, given I don't actually know how much of a rush he was in.
Then he tunnels on Vaimes for a while, which is NAI.
I kinda like his take on Sloth though, that despite his postcount, he is low content. I also had this though.
However, 429 is a weird post. He's interacting with someone he believes to be town, but the post goes from "my reads aren't strong, you might be paranoid" to a series of accusatory questions that I'm not sure are asked of a townread generally. Also of note here, I don't think scum!Rhand makes this post to scum!Eco. The progression from just answering Eco to "maybe you're paranoid" to "why you do scummy things" don't make sense in that context, nor from a logical progression perspective.
Yeh you're right, fluffing doesn't come natural to me. It was a very weird game start for me, which is why I couldn't get a grip.
With the "vote me" thing I wasn't expecting a bunch of naked votes to pop up. I was counting on actual reasons for me to look into. I got those later, not in the moment the wagon popped up.
I was in a big rush to get that post with the readslist finished.
429 was my townread of Eco wavering. I'm back to townreading him, but I had doubts at that point.
This is taking too much of my time. I’ve spent 3 hours now on reading / typing and I'm still 2 pages behind.
BBL. Need a big break.
So the crux of my Rhand read was the contradictory nature of trying to drum up activity by asking for a wagon then doing nothing with it and complaining that there was nothing to do anything with (probably the strongest point) and post 429, which had a whole chain of thought readflip on Eco. It was unusual for Rhand to have that whole conversation in one small space of time, which is why I called it out.
The issue I was kind of internally debating though was that Rhand's reads tend to be fairly mercurial. That's not out of the ordinary for him, so I wasn't weighing 429 very highly.
Similarly, I wasn't all that confident in my read on Eco. The best point I could see for him being town was the post where he focused on who might be scum wanting him dead/alive, and the rest was kind of "general town feel"ish. So then, at the 11th hour when deciding wagons, I needed to decide which was the better yeet... I was weighing whether town!Rhand would be more likely to do the things he did against Eco not being able to keep his story straight on HR, and ultimately decide that that was more out of character for Eco than Rhand.
And that's how that shook out at the end of Yesterday.
Eco:
Eco goes here because his posting has been reasonable, I can generally follow the logic, and there was a bit there in our questioning of Ignoramus that he was on the same page thought processwise. I also kind of like that he's analyzing the focus on himself. He also does what I do in that he attacks the problem from several sides (see 371, where he tries to get Axel to analyze his townreads that are scumreading him) which usually shows a genuine attempt to solve a puzzle he doesn't have all the pieces to.
I will say I disagree with 384, saying that Axel's long post about Eco vs. Igno is possibly negatively relevent to Axel's alignment. Specifically he says it's a lot of words to say that Axel will do the same, but whether or not Axel would do that is not relevent to Eco's alignment.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm leaning the third is ZDS atm. He hasn't really committed to any reads 1000 posts into the game, and now he's making an argument that it's dangerous to look at the Eco wagon for scumspects, which mostly just precludes him (and a little Ter).
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Problem is, I do agree with Highroller that arguing he, as any sort of scum role, shot ignoramus specifically to waste my cop shot is a ridiculous argument. Highroller isn't a clueless player.
Of course, he could be lying about his kill being unstoppable, tried to shoot me and ended up with a dead bodyguard. I haven't reread ignoramus but it would make sense for them to just go for the cop claim. That is a much more likely world.
Sloth, can you like, explain why Killjoy is scum? I'm assuming it's mechanical, and I don't really expect you to claim [even though I think it's completely worth it, since we killed scum Day 1]. If it's a gambit, too late I already ran one and I don't think people have the patience for another.
Yes Killjoy I know you want my opinion on Axelspew but I'm lazy. I'll definitely get to it before Night, but Axelrod isn't really on my radar right now.
-
Oh, Highroller, I still think Jackrito is town. He opened himself up to being wagoned at EoD1 when people had been building up to voting him and only voted Rhand at the last minute, same as you and Killjoy.
Sorry if I misrepresented your early forum activity, Highroller. I could have sworn you played some of those early games in addition to the one you moderated, but maybe my memory of 15 years ago is failing and/or just mixing up games with MTGNews.
(you’ll always be the O.G. To me, though. Reading those early games on News was what made me want to play mafia to begin with)
I’m surprised that’s a thing that you’re harping over though. That wasn’t like some telling point from me. I was just noting what seemed like a weird question for you to be asking. Still think that.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It does bear mentioning that HR’s argument based on his kill being “unstoppable” is somewhat faulty in as much as this is completely unverified and unverifiable. Which he should know.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I mean the simplest explanation to everything is that HR is lying and scum shot Eco and Eco shot Igno. The unblockble aspect of HR's claim is bizarre though if it's a lie. There isn't really an obvious reason he'd make it up. But then we get back to the two Vigs (one unblockable) problem. Plus the question of where Eco's shot went (I guess there is a small chance he holstered but the two explanations I can see for his shot make enough sense I don't believe that), so again Occam's razor is that he's lying scum and his buddy is ZDS.
It's not like Rhand was overwhelmingly scumread, he was pretty much just the "oh ***** we're about to No Yeet" wagon. Had there been any sort of moderately strong push anywhere else at any point, Rhand probably would've gotten enough passes to survive.
So it makes me think he had at least one buddy voting him. I highly doubt the mafia team both failed to save a buddy and failed to make a meaningful push anywhere else, when a lot of people [including villagers] were looking for any excuse to vote someone other than Rhand.
The ZDS read is kind of super meta though. He's not afraid to bus, but I cannot for the life of me see Rhand and ZDS as buddies where Rhand acted like a lost child Day 1 and ZDS tried to both ignore him and make a weak push on Ecophagy. It is completely unlike him, and the only way he flips red is if this team is deliberately trolling by trying to win with the least effort put in possible so that town overthinks everything and ****s it all up.
The ZDS read is kind of super meta though. He's not afraid to bus, but I cannot for the life of me see Rhand and ZDS as buddies where Rhand acted like a lost child Day 1 and ZDS tried to both ignore him and make a weak push on Ecophagy. It is completely unlike him, and the only way he flips red is if this team is deliberately trolling by trying to win with the least effort put in possible so that town overthinks everything and ****s it all up.
I think the Eco push started before Rhand being lost, didn't it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I have to say I'm a bit shocked at how many people floated they would suspect Eco if he hadn't died last night. Again I was over estimating my own importance in the wagon but I have the most likely shot rankings at something roughly like 40% Eco, 30% Vaimes, 25% me, 5% in everyone else in some order of Jack>KJ>Axel.
The ZDS read is kind of super meta though. He's not afraid to bus, but I cannot for the life of me see Rhand and ZDS as buddies where Rhand acted like a lost child Day 1 and ZDS tried to both ignore him and make a weak push on Ecophagy. It is completely unlike him, and the only way he flips red is if this team is deliberately trolling by trying to win with the least effort put in possible so that town overthinks everything and ****s it all up.
Expand on this please? I'm not seeing why they both can't be scum together.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Expand on this please? I'm not seeing why they both can't be scum together.
It is literally in the quote.
ZDS isn't afraid to bus. If he isn't going to bus, I think he would at least make an attempt to help his partner look good by engaging with them or asking questions on Day 1. The idea that scum!ZDS lets the Rhand wagon happen [even though it was barely a serious wagon for MOST of the Day, up until a couple days before deadline] is silly when the entire reason he got voted out in PBII was because he was too towny to have not been NKed by that point in the game. You and Grape want me to think this is the same scum player? And now he's just so obvious and bad because he forgot to switch his brian on?
The scumreads on him here feel like a desperate attempt to keep names in the pool.
I feel like everyone is leveling themselving in regards to ZDS. The level 1 play with a wagon like we had yesterday is that scum were working to keep it from going through. This happens all the time regardless of skill level. Yes bussing happens, but that doesn't mean you throw away classic mafia principles of wagon dynamics.
There is every chance I'm wrong (and I think I might have been very wrong about KJ and HR) but like ZDS absolutely deserves to be under scrutiny here.
Expand on this please? I'm not seeing why they both can't be scum together.
It is literally in the quote.
ZDS isn't afraid to bus. If he isn't going to bus, I think he would at least make an attempt to help his partner look good by engaging with them or asking questions on Day 1. The idea that scum!ZDS lets the Rhand wagon happen [even though it was barely a serious wagon for MOST of the Day, up until a couple days before deadline] is silly when the entire reason he got voted out in PBII was because he was too towny to have not been NKed by that point in the game. You and Grape want me to think this is the same scum player? And now he's just so obvious and bad because he forgot to switch his brian on?
The scumreads on him here feel like a desperate attempt to keep names in the pool.
Maybe. In one of my earlier posts he does a lot of "this is a town explaination for Rhands actions". He did that a few times without really committing to a Rhand read. I think they could be buddies.
I also disagree that his push was weak (in conviction or strength). He wanted eco dead.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I feel like everyone is leveling themselving in regards to ZDS. The level 1 play with a wagon like we had yesterday is that scum were working to keep it from going through. This happens all the time regardless of skill level. Yes bussing happens, but that doesn't mean you throw away classic mafia principles of wagon dynamics.
There is every chance I'm wrong (and I think I might have been very wrong about KJ and HR) but like ZDS absolutely deserves to be under scrutiny here.
Can you go deep into your read on me? From start to finish? I need to see if this recent paranoia is real.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I feel like everyone is leveling themselving in regards to ZDS. The level 1 play with a wagon like we had yesterday is that scum were working to keep it from going through. This happens all the time regardless of skill level. Yes bussing happens, but that doesn't mean you throw away classic mafia principles of wagon dynamics.
There is every chance I'm wrong (and I think I might have been very wrong about KJ and HR) but like ZDS absolutely deserves to be under scrutiny here.
Can you go deep into your read on me? From start to finish? I need to see if this recent paranoia is real.
Nope. My read on you is very simple and not going to be fleshed out toDay. EoD looks good (but not as good as I originally thought) for you that I'm never voting you toDay. The paranoia is my growing sense that my entire worldview is off and I should be sheeping Sloth. That's pretty much as deep as it's going to get before more flips since HR is the default and I'm tilting at my own personal windmill.
Honestly, I feel like the person who made that Lynch happen was Jack. Eco. and Rhand were pretty neck and neck in the last 90 minutes of the day. His switch to Rhand made Rhand the default choice. He doesn't do that, maybe we don't get a lynch at all.
Correct. This is why your "do you really think HR/KJ both do that to rhand as his scumbuddy?" question is ridiculous.
Sloth @159. Completely unexplained. Very early and never removed. Not pushed or argued strongly for. Today Sloth has told us he has a secret Rhand tell, but does not care to share so he can use it in future games. This could even be true, but I can't see how Sloth realistically believes anyone should Town-read him for it. This is the kind of vote a scum-buddy could easily make. In his favor, there were certainly opportunities for him, as scum, to leave the wagon in favor of greener pastures, and he didn't avail himself of any of those opportunities.
...Axel, are you scum?
Like, I had pretty much written that off based on #536 alone, but I seriously, honestly cannot believe you would believe that this was an "easy scumbuddy move" as town.
Also I have explained that it's not because of the unexplained vote that I should be townread enough times that at this point anyone trying to push that perspective is intentionally misrepping.
• IMO the ridiculousness of Sloth wanting credit for the Rhand flush is a point in Sloth's favour. I assume scum-Sloth would have solid arguments why Rhand's death makes him town, not a weird mix of ego-centrism and self-unawareness.
...Are people just not reading or did I say it wrong?
Like, I know I'm barely making an effort, but I was upfront about being done with the game until we kill KJ and HR. What's everyone else's excuse?
And yes, that last sentence is pretty much what I said as one actual good reason to townread me. Thanks, I guess?
Sloth, can you like, explain why Killjoy is scum? I'm assuming it's mechanical, and I don't really expect you to claim [even though I think it's completely worth it, since we killed scum Day 1]. If it's a gambit, too late I already ran one and I don't think people have the patience for another.
I talked about it in my second opening post of the Day.
Since then, I have seen nothing that's made me change my mind. Why, have you?
I'm not investigative. This isn't "mechanical." This isn't a gambit. He's just scum. That simple.
At the risk of sounding like sloth. I'm bored.
But....
My movie is not rated R
1st Vote:
Sloth @159. Completely unexplained. Very early and never removed. Not pushed or argued strongly for. Today Sloth has told us he has a secret Rhand tell, but does not care to share so he can use it in future games. This could even be true, but I can't see how Sloth realistically believes anyone should Town-read him for it. This is the kind of vote a scum-buddy could easily make. In his favor, there were certainly opportunities for him, as scum, to leave the wagon in favor of greener pastures, and he didn't avail himself of any of those opportunities.
Rhand himself starts his own wagon proper by basically inviting votes on himself at #234. He gets very quick votes from (1) Killjoy - 235, (2) TerRaine - 236, and (3) Vaimes - 239. Not sure quite what to make of those, but I do feel it's a decent look for all three of them. The votes don't stick, of course, but it's somewhat interesting to me that they were all still there when HR came back at #237, voted for TerRaine, and criticized the "Eco Wagon" which consisted of 2 votes, as opposed to Rhand's 4. Didn't say anything about that.
Killjoy unvotes because it wasn't a serious vote to begin with, and TerRaine move over to Eco. Now Eco actually has more votes than Rhand, 3-2, as of #363. Then I jump on the Eco wagon at #376, giving him 4 votes to Rhand's 2. This, it would seem, would be an opportune time for scum to act, assuming they all weren't already.
So maybe I should give Grapefruit more props for #380 where he unvotes Eco and votes Rhand. That puts them both on 3, and could be viewed as something of a momentum killer for the Eco. wagon. Of course, GF is (apparently) voting based at least in part on a mis-read of a Rhand post, and when he realizes this he immediately unvotes. Then says he doesn't want to vote Eco or Rhand. I still want to say that interaction seems less likely from a scum-buddy.
Then Vaimes switches from Rhand to Eco at #404, pushing the momentum back that way, if you will. Now it's 4-1 Eco. vs. Rhand. I don't have too many issues with this switch from Vaimes here, as he's saying he just doesn't think he can get the momentum for the votes on Rhand at this point, and there isn't too much that should have made him feel otherwise. Plus, Eco was already one of his suspects. Vaimes continues to prod at Rhand though, in a Townie way. All of which leads up to the:
2nd Vote:
Eco at #424. Eco. was Town.
I'm breaking up these posts for ease of reading, I think.
HR is probably scum but my ego doesn't want to admit it so I'm going to stay camped out on ZDS for now.
@ZDS yes you had voted Eco earlier, doesn't change the fact that your posts at the end of day read like an effort to keep Rhand alive moreso than an effort to kill Eco. I'm just probably wrong about everything though. But that's okay because I don't think everyone else is.
3rd Vote:
Vaimes at #506. Still looking Townie to me here. That leads not long after to the:
4th vote:
Grapefruit at #519. This is not a bad look either. It does re-solidify the Rhand-wagon which had previously petered out. Rhand is now the clear leader. Had Grape not completely disappeared for the remainder of the day it would look a lot better.
ZDS comes back at #538 and (re)votes Eco., which kind of makes Eco a legit counter-wagon to Rhand. And I mean, yeah, it could be an attempt to save his scum-buddy, but if that's what it is, it's pretty good. I'm biased since I was already voting Eco. I think the Rhand-Eco count is 4-2 now. Jack, maybe notably, does not hop this counter-wagon. I state I would move to Rhand at #559.
I guess #561 is interesting from Killjoy, in as much as he makes a real big post with lots of reads and comes down pretty firmly with Rhand-scum. But does not vote Rhand. I think he was voting for Sloth, and stayed voting Sloth here, despite having Rhand more scummy and the deadline coming up. I don't know if he's ever talked about that. Have you, Killjoy?
Jack then makes his big post about Rhand at #569, before placing the
5th Vote:
at #574. I've already said I think this is a good look for Jack and I still think that. Killjoy didn't think so, however, and proceeded to vote for Jack. He seemed to think Jack's progression on Rhand didn't feel right. Ugh. I still want to trust my Killjoy read, but I will acknowledge this part doesn't look so great. It's not that Killjoy is retracting his scum-Rhand lean, but he apparently thinks this is stronger. He does have a bit of back and forth with Jack before placing the vote, so it doesn't come totally out of nowhere.
Rhand is now at 5 with Eco at 2.
And I have to go get some dinner. I might or might not finish this tonight.
Not feeling as great about Sloth today though how fast he wants today to end feels like an attempt to make anti spew. I also don't like how much town rep he is trying to get off the Rhand execute when he was barely here. That being said I do agree with his push on KJ his push on me yesterday bothers me a lot because it came out of nowhere and especially with the timing of it. I think he was really expecting it to get more traction and save Rhand, his play was very middle of the field before that. Grape would also go in my scum pile to a lesser degree, not because he has being really bad this game more that I town read others way more then him. I only go there if game not over after Sloth and KJ which it likely will be.
Ter for me still feels town I find their play yesterday really towny and if we think HR is scum here which seems pretty likely I don't think he would go at her that way and for most of the day.
Not even going to try and figure out why Eco is dead today that makes little sense and not worth thinking about Igno makes more sense if it was a town who shot them because it saved us wasteing a day on a miskill which was going to happen. I know HR claimed it was him who shot Igno, but I think we all agree his play makes no sense off his scumreads and his reasons given make less so.
Just to make it clear my reads in order are
Lagoon
Axel
ter
ZDs
Grape
Kj
Sloth
They is no rush in ending today though so we can give ZDS time to post again since a lot of you doubt him.
Mostly it sees to just be Kill and Grape
I have legitimately no idea how anyone in their right mind can argue that TerRaine is town.
So Mafia-Highroller, with a 100%-guaranteed nightkill, decided to use it on Igno because he believed Vaimes was cop and that would provide a strategic advantage? That’s your argument?
So, let’s follow this logic with me now. You’re arguing that I’m mafia-Highroller, I have a night kill that cannot miss, and I believe goo is the cop… and I kill IGNO for all of the strategic benefit he provides?
Why would I not kill Vaimes?
Don’t you think that would provide more strategic advantage?!
On top of that, TerRaine’s attacks on Ecophagy were just obviously bad, and were subsequently followed by TerRaine jumping around so many times in voting people yesterday that it’s like a damn drinking game. TerRaine did at one point vote Rhand, but only when Rhand told everyone to vote for him as a joke.
It’s just blatant at this point. Vote: TerRaine
——————
Says the guy who didn't vote Rhand.
See, you were doing really well up until this point, and I considered dropping you to a null read, but then you posted this.
I am an OG player in the sense that I hosted the first mafia game on MTGNews, the parent site for MTGSalvation, and played there for a long time. Up until Banned Mafia, which was 2018, I'd played one game on MTGSalvation, which was Mafia: Dominaria Style Seventh Edition, which was in 2005, and I was hosting. To bring up my being an OG and implying this means I should understand the meta here is incredibly misleading because I didn't play a single game on this site for those 13 years in-between.
And the fact is, the metagame here is drastically different from MTGNews. I don't know how much of that is MTGSalvation versus how much of that is just the natural byproduct of over 15 years passing and the fact that no game stays the same for that long a time, but it is drastically different. Things like Vaimes doing this dance with his cop claim, or to go with what happened in Realm of the Elderlings mafia, a third-party role that could win the game without ending the game, just didn't happen.
What truly bothers me about this? You should be well-aware of this because you were on MTGNews and you have actually been here during that interim, and even remarked when I played Banned Mafia of how long it's been since I've been on this forum. So you know damn well that I wouldn't know how the metagame's changed. Not to mention not a game goes by without someone remarking how weird I am for my views on mafia and how contrary they are to what is considered "normal" on this forum. You should know better.
These two statements are completely contradictory.
This has been posted multiple times by people and it confuses the absolute hell out of me.
First of all, it would really seem to me that fighting would be the mafia play. A mafia has something to lose.
Whereas if I'm town? **** it. I'm a vig with no nightkill attempt left. I'm literally the most expendable role in the game.
I also don't understand the flipside of this argument. Suppose I'm town. Is it a reasonable expectation to think the town is not going to vote a guy whom a claimed cop who has not been counterclaimed said is mafia? No. There is no reasonable expectation in which that would happen. So why kick and scream about it? I would vote me in that situation.
I think Realm of the Elderlings pointed out that my recognizing that I'm ****ed and not bothering with a prolonged fight over it is, at worst, NAI.
——————
Yeah, Jackrito’s mafia.
Mafia Jackrito plays follow-the-leader, and lo and behold, that’s precisely what he’s doing right now. This is exactly his play during Snow White Mafia, a game in which he basically said, “I think we should do what Vaimes said we should do because I agree with what Vaimes said.” He at least managed to make it slightly subtler during day one, but he’s just doing it just as transparently right now.
——————
Sure.
1. Axelrod
2. gooLagoon
3. Grapefruit21
4. Highroller
5. Jackrito
6. Killjoy
7. Slothful
8. TerRaine
9. ZeDorkSlipeur
1. Axelrod - Mafia read. He'll post things that are just blatantly wrong in ways he should know better.
2. gooLagoon - Ok, I know I’m notoriously bad at reading Vaimes, but I’m pretty positive he’s town. I have no idea what he’s doing, I’m still not even necessarily sure he’s actually claiming cop or not, but “I have no idea what the **** Vaimes is doing with his trololol antics” seems to me to be Vaimes’ town meta. To add to that, Vaimes has not been counterclaimed, so there’s no way I’m voting for a non-counterclaimed cop today. We can hash out whatever tomorrow because apparently Day 3 is Designated Mass Claim Day on this site.
3. Grapefruit21 - Null read. Grape hasn’t really pinged me one way or another. I will say that Grapefruit isn’t hedging nearly as much as he normally does. Really, Grape’s just a player I’ve long ago given up being able to read.
5. Jackrito - Mafia read. He's playing exactly like he did in Snow White Mafia, in which he was mafia.
6. Killjoy - Light town read. Killjoy is behaving exactly like he did in Realm of the Elderlings mafia. I actually do not understand what the case is against him.
7. Slothful - Sloth is not being a gaslighting jackass and is posting things that remotely make sense. He’s town.
8. TerRaine - Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind TerRaine is open-wolfing.
9. ZeDorkSlipeur - Null read. ZDS is posting absolutely abysmal arguments and that’s exactly what he did during Shoushiling - or however the hell it’s spelled - in which he was town. However, he’s also not being anywhere near as aggressive. Might be suspicious, but it might also just be him improving. Really, the things that keep me at null for him are his not posting enough, and the fact that I’m really not familiar with ZDS’s mafia meta.
If you kill vaimes...then you have one dead town with a power role that is wasted. Vaimes is dead and isn't around to clear Igno and Igno continues on and would have to up his play given his null/uncertain status in D1.
If you kill igno...then you have one dead town with a power role that is wasted AND one live Town with a power role which is wasted. Killing igno not only get's rid of a town but it makes the other useless role wise. Vaimes would get a green check on a flipped green player AND a decent mafia player can just turn it around and cast doubt on vaime's claim as convenient for hiding mafia
In the grand scheme of things getting rid of 1 town and 2 roles is better than getting rid of 1 town and 1 role.
Not open wolfing. Just using the one of two wrinkles on this smooth smooth brain to think with.
This is the single most ridiculous argument you've made all game and it's a game in which you've made nothing but bad arguments.
If the mafia has an uncounterable nightkill, their target would logically be the claimed cop, the primary threat to them and the guy who is likely to be the target of protection roles.
It would make absolutely no sense to target Igno, who was both a lurker and a target of town suspicion and would be a potential cop/vig/misyeet target and best left alive for that reason.
Currently listening to: "Der Komissar" by After The Fire.
Nup. Referring to the confusion on ZDS
"Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash."
"It wasn't like that, ***** breath."
Highroller (3): Jackrito, ZeDorkSlipeur, Slothful
ZeDorkSlipeur (1): Grapefruit21
Killjoy (1): TerRaine
TerRaine (1): Highroller
Not Voting (3): Axelrod, gooLagoon, Killjoy
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eject!
Day 2 deadline is Thursday, February 18th, at 4:15pm MST.
Please inform me if there are any errors in votecounts. (And thanks to ZDS for the corrections; 2.2 has been updated.)
If you have a question for me, the most consistent way to quickly get my attention is to ping me on Discord.
Maybe ritual sacrifice will be more effective?
• Exclusive insight from an Eco-wagon insider:
The Eco wagon sucked in terms of momentum. It was arguably the first wagon, depending on if you count Ter's early interrogating of Eco as her voting-in-spirit, and yet it barely ever got past the background-noise level. At the end of the Day, the choice wasn't between Rhand and Eco. Pragmatically speaking, it was between Rhand and no one.
There is evidence of scum dismissing the wagon very early. By "evidence" I mean confirmed-scum Rhand and soon-to-be-confirmed-scum Highroller both townreading / defending Ecophagy. That's two out of three, and it is not a stretch to hypothetise scum #3 also did not want to have anything to do with it. Or if s/he did, s/he had no expectation of the wagon going anywhere.
On the other hand, the same "evidence" (Rhand and HR) points to the sudden Jackrito wagon as an attempt to save Rhand. Not to say it was necessarily created with that intent, but this is what it became (before fizzling out).
Therefore it is very dangerous to look for who could be scum in the Eco wagon, when chances are the scum were completely uninvolved. In this situation it is better to be open-minded (not like me sometimes).
• IMO the ridiculousness of Sloth wanting credit for the Rhand flush is a point in Sloth's favour. I assume scum-Sloth would have solid arguments why Rhand's death makes him town, not a weird mix of ego-centrism and self-unawareness.
• Highroller posted content! It's mostly posturing but it is content! HR, out of your three scumreads, which two do you think are scum?
• Re "who did the mafia kill", are we forgetting Igno was a bodyguard?
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I didn't look past the final votecount.
Did the pressure work? Did your naked vote result in anything interesting?
My reads are in constant motion, although due to tunneling / confbias I tend to return where I came from. But sometimes I don't and I completely reverse my stances, which is always fun and exciting! But anyway, like I said before I haven't done any serious rereading yet.
(I think I answered your other question above, otherwise ask me again in a clearer way)
My order of preference was 1) ejecting Eco, 2) ejecting no one, 3) ejecting Rhand. Ejecting Eco didn't look like it was going to happen, so I was getting ready for the no-ejection.
So... your interpretation is correct, although I had no ill will and was only completely fooled by Rhand's brand new strategy (playing like a clueless newb).
It's easy, all you have to do is wait for evening time in GMT+1.
Not really...it pretty much just expressed my okayness with him being yeeted into the nothing.
I'm read ready to end this. People have had their say and I don't see any reason to keep HR alive
Are you willing to commit to a read anywhere at all? You've made arguments for where scum can't be, so where ARE they?
Re:who did the nightkill: We've discussed this to death, I think I've personally exhausted all options here. And HR claimed Strongman, so he would bypass Igno anyway.
So the crux of my Rhand read was the contradictory nature of trying to drum up activity by asking for a wagon then doing nothing with it and complaining that there was nothing to do anything with (probably the strongest point) and post 429, which had a whole chain of thought readflip on Eco. It was unusual for Rhand to have that whole conversation in one small space of time, which is why I called it out.
The issue I was kind of internally debating though was that Rhand's reads tend to be fairly mercurial. That's not out of the ordinary for him, so I wasn't weighing 429 very highly.
Similarly, I wasn't all that confident in my read on Eco. The best point I could see for him being town was the post where he focused on who might be scum wanting him dead/alive, and the rest was kind of "general town feel"ish. So then, at the 11th hour when deciding wagons, I needed to decide which was the better yeet... I was weighing whether town!Rhand would be more likely to do the things he did against Eco not being able to keep his story straight on HR, and ultimately decide that that was more out of character for Eco than Rhand.
And that's how that shook out at the end of Yesterday.
Eco goes here because his posting has been reasonable, I can generally follow the logic, and there was a bit there in our questioning of Ignoramus that he was on the same page thought processwise. I also kind of like that he's analyzing the focus on himself. He also does what I do in that he attacks the problem from several sides (see 371, where he tries to get Axel to analyze his townreads that are scumreading him) which usually shows a genuine attempt to solve a puzzle he doesn't have all the pieces to.
I will say I disagree with 384, saying that Axel's long post about Eco vs. Igno is possibly negatively relevent to Axel's alignment. Specifically he says it's a lot of words to say that Axel will do the same, but whether or not Axel would do that is not relevent to Eco's alignment.
Of course, he could be lying about his kill being unstoppable, tried to shoot me and ended up with a dead bodyguard. I haven't reread ignoramus but it would make sense for them to just go for the cop claim. That is a much more likely world.
Sloth, can you like, explain why Killjoy is scum? I'm assuming it's mechanical, and I don't really expect you to claim [even though I think it's completely worth it, since we killed scum Day 1]. If it's a gambit, too late I already ran one and I don't think people have the patience for another.
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Oh, Highroller, I still think Jackrito is town. He opened himself up to being wagoned at EoD1 when people had been building up to voting him and only voted Rhand at the last minute, same as you and Killjoy.
Sorry if I misrepresented your early forum activity, Highroller. I could have sworn you played some of those early games in addition to the one you moderated, but maybe my memory of 15 years ago is failing and/or just mixing up games with MTGNews.
(you’ll always be the O.G. To me, though. Reading those early games on News was what made me want to play mafia to begin with)
I’m surprised that’s a thing that you’re harping over though. That wasn’t like some telling point from me. I was just noting what seemed like a weird question for you to be asking. Still think that.
So it makes me think he had at least one buddy voting him. I highly doubt the mafia team both failed to save a buddy and failed to make a meaningful push anywhere else, when a lot of people [including villagers] were looking for any excuse to vote someone other than Rhand.
Can I just vote once Sloth answers you Vaimes?
Obviously it's a bit easier from my POV.
I have to say I'm a bit shocked at how many people floated they would suspect Eco if he hadn't died last night. Again I was over estimating my own importance in the wagon but I have the most likely shot rankings at something roughly like 40% Eco, 30% Vaimes, 25% me, 5% in everyone else in some order of Jack>KJ>Axel.
ZDS isn't afraid to bus. If he isn't going to bus, I think he would at least make an attempt to help his partner look good by engaging with them or asking questions on Day 1. The idea that scum!ZDS lets the Rhand wagon happen [even though it was barely a serious wagon for MOST of the Day, up until a couple days before deadline] is silly when the entire reason he got voted out in PBII was because he was too towny to have not been NKed by that point in the game. You and Grape want me to think this is the same scum player? And now he's just so obvious and bad because he forgot to switch his brian on?
The scumreads on him here feel like a desperate attempt to keep names in the pool.
There is every chance I'm wrong (and I think I might have been very wrong about KJ and HR) but like ZDS absolutely deserves to be under scrutiny here.
I also disagree that his push was weak (in conviction or strength). He wanted eco dead.
Nope. My read on you is very simple and not going to be fleshed out toDay. EoD looks good (but not as good as I originally thought) for you that I'm never voting you toDay. The paranoia is my growing sense that my entire worldview is off and I should be sheeping Sloth. That's pretty much as deep as it's going to get before more flips since HR is the default and I'm tilting at my own personal windmill.
Like, I had pretty much written that off based on #536 alone, but I seriously, honestly cannot believe you would believe that this was an "easy scumbuddy move" as town.
Also I have explained that it's not because of the unexplained vote that I should be townread enough times that at this point anyone trying to push that perspective is intentionally misrepping.
This is probably a super bad take? But ???
Son of a--
...Are people just not reading or did I say it wrong?
Like, I know I'm barely making an effort, but I was upfront about being done with the game until we kill KJ and HR. What's everyone else's excuse?
And yes, that last sentence is pretty much what I said as one actual good reason to townread me. Thanks, I guess?
...thank...you?
Since then, I have seen nothing that's made me change my mind. Why, have you?
I'm not investigative. This isn't "mechanical." This isn't a gambit. He's just scum. That simple.