@Sloth: while sifting through her ISO, I was noticing her directly shading some folks, and I was noticing a pattern in them: Most were dead town. Tammy got a lot of it, Cuth got a bit, GJ got a bit. Az got a bit. Iso/Anak too. I got I think one instance.
I can’t remember when or why I brought it up, the thread was so quiet that I had to double check that I wasn’t the one who had the date wrong. I believe someone pounced on my half-serious suggestion that we all lurk until the new year, and they mentioned that deadline was approaching. And then I didn’t think about it again until sometime after xmas.
That was me, and I pounced on it because I did not know if you were serious or joking, or if perhaps you were fishing for an extension which I also think would have been a bad idea.
I just don't think that scum!bessie uses a suggestion that we lurk until the new year to further a scumlean on her buddy. This feels like she wants him dead. Like actually dead.
bessie: can you give a couple post numbers where Vaimes is doing that?
Also is the reason you're suspicious of it because you're scum reading cuth or is there something in the way that Vaimes is doing it?
Here’s some D4 posts that I find suspicious, looking at the progression. Vaimes starts out with a vote on Cuth with a caveat that it’s just to provoke him to post.
if Cuth is a wolf, then Boom has to be a wolf with him, he is the only other vanillaish role, that could afford to hold the night KP? correct?
@Vaimes
unless someone is just straight-up lying about their role
ah **** I keep forgetting about that
This vote is more an invitation to defend himself instead of having me do it for him, and to explain his Night actions.
god is Anak mafia? Because like what the ****, this PoE makes no sense to me.
Clearing Tammy and KJ based on behavior. If anyone other than KJ claimed a double vote that had never actually been used, I'd probably steamroll them. Like his claim is actually making my skin crawl, but goddamn it if he isn't one of my strongest townreads.
Clearing Sloth because Tammy is alive, hasn't been blocked, and hasn't been announcing her targets to Sloth.
I guessssss maybe remove Cuth/Boom? Cuth is wine incarnate but I can't bring myself to keep squeezing him for anything, any hint of gamesolving. Boom's had ok posts toDay.
I don't like this, because I can't clear both Bur and Highroller unless there's another neutral out there, or the scumteam is small to compensate for town having WEAK ABILITIES.
I wish I could completely wipe away my memories of this game and start over fresh.
I am trying to townread Cuth with peace in my heart. I think Highroller is fine, just saw how much more cooperative he was in Ghostbusters and got excited that maybe he wasn't town this time.
I’ve posted pings I’ve had from Vaimes since I’ve joined the game on D2, and he was on my short list. Skimming my posts, the early pings were because of what I thought was a forced defense of Tammy. And there were some other pings, you can iso my posts.
This was really recent, she hasn't backed off of Vaimes since D2.
I think a case can be made here for her and Vaimes not being on the same team, especially considering she didn't do anything like that to ANYONE ELSE WHO ISN'T TOWN. She softballed Highroller (which will be hilarious in retrospect when HR flips since its SO DAMN OBVIOUS that they were partners), you (Sloth), Tubba, and me, and she didn't really do much with Bur or Boom. But she specifically sought out Vaimes to die. So, unless the plan was specifically for Vaimes to go Deep Wolf, I don't think Bessie is conscious enough to interact with and pretend she thinks Vaimes might be town as scum but not to do that with literally anyone else on her team.
To whoever asked why Vaimes is town. Interactions with bessie.
I get that, but do you have anything that isn't just "Bessie attacked him"?
... But really, at the end of the day this is your guys game and I'm just a warm seat. I expect KJ to declare a full solve. And we follow it until we win or lose. I think we've still got about a 50% chance of winning this.
I'm here to help, but my days of being a try hard are over.
So you've essentially...given up on the game?
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. In LYLO town have to vote together, 100% as a block. We can't afford to be wishy washy and push for our favorite scum-read. If KJ is for example pushing that we vote HR and I think Tubba is most likely either I have to convince KJ I'm right or I have to follow his decision.
I mean you are active but not proactive. You stated opinions but don't push to get what you want. We've missyeeted every day which makes me think scum have been the drivers. Everything points to Sloth except mechanics, but I think I really should throw out the assumption that I have all the pieces to this puzzle.
Meaning you think Vaimes is town>scum?
Also, lol at that. I feel like if you take mechanics out of the equation, I've been the towniest player. With mechanics, the only one mostly cleared is really Bur - I'm second there based on Nigh Actions.
You pushed Azreal harder than anyone. You pushed Anak. Vaimes has been a lot more wishy washy. Yeah, we've all been wrong. But you've been actively wrong. Unless the scum team is just sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart.
Idk, I just don't see a PoE without you or Vaimes in it, and Vaimes has a lot more "townie uncertainty".
You pushed Azreal harder than anyone. You pushed Anak. Vaimes has been a lot more wishy washy. Yeah, we've all been wrong. But you've been actively wrong. Unless the scum team is just sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart.
Idk, I just don't see a PoE without you or Vaimes in it, and Vaimes has a lot more "townie uncertainty".
That's not mechanics, that's play. Mechanics is roles and what not.
Do you find that I don't actually believe the cases I made for Az and Anak? Are the conclusions I've drawn manipulated? Otherwise you have to "accept" (or I guess consider since this is mafia) that I pushed those cause I believed them. Even now, I dont see how my arguments were not strong. It's a super hit to the ego, I guess.
Kinda think there's something to be said for the whole "sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart" - making me think that the scumteam is not terribly active this game.
Also, which question is the second post in reference to?
Because if any town votes any other town, and refuses to move that vote, we're ****ed. It's LyLo. So if you're voting me and refusing to budge, then either you're mafia, in which case I should vote you, or you're town, in which case it doesn't even matter.
Again, maybe you're mafia, but I'd rather you live today.
Uhhh because he said "go scum!"?
Nope.
I had the feeling you'd mess this one up.
See, CropCircles absolutely did say that on post 1026:
Sloth: First you declared your desire to yeet HR, then you made a whole post eventually concluding that Tubba was a Safe yeet. Given the amount of analysis behind it i assumed it was a preference. An I wrong?
Iirc you were the first to propose Tubba as a serious alternative to HR, and in a scum world where you're scum with HR, an alternative is just what you need to win. So what's with the overly emotional response?
And with regard to the two vit thieves, my point is that we don't know where it came from. We can't clear you just because there is unexplained vit loss. Maybe you didn't do it at night, maybe you have a day ability that drains vitality that night. Or maybe you're doing something else on top of your vit drain, and the other one does something else.
I guess the best answer to your question is: why can't there be two scum vit thieves? One vit point is not a lot of killing power.
Can someone refresh me on who the vit targets were and confirmation that they were targeted by chance?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Sloth: First you declared your desire to yeet HR, then you made a whole post eventually concluding that Tubba was a Safe yeet. Given the amount of analysis behind it i assumed it was a preference. An I wrong?
Iirc you were the first to propose Tubba as a serious alternative to HR, and in a scum world where you're scum with HR, an alternative is just what you need to win. So what's with the overly emotional response?
And with regard to the two vit thieves, my point is that we don't know where it came from. We can't clear you just because there is unexplained vit loss. Maybe you didn't do it at night, maybe you have a day ability that drains vitality that night. Or maybe you're doing something else on top of your vit drain, and the other one does something else.
I guess the best answer to your question is: why can't there be two scum vit thieves? One vit point is not a lot of killing power.
Can someone refresh me on who the vit targets were and confirmation that they were targeted by chance?
KJ, I mean no offense here, but I think maybe you should stop trying to read me on tone, you don't seem to be able to pick it up accurately from me. I know this is subjective and hard to prove, but it still boils down to asking you to focus only on objective things, so I think it's still valid.
I'm bringing this up here specifically because what overly emotional response? All I did was express massive confusion over you and vaimes saying I was proposing the exact opposite than what I actually proposed - and I honestly don't see how that's not a perfectly appropriate response to it.
Re: Tubba/HR So I guess we have to break down the post in question, because you are wrong, and I'm not sure where the disconnect is occurring. I bolded the relevant parts:
Ok, so I think this is where I'm at:
KJ worries me, but otherwise the POE seems solid.
(Thinking about it, just realized KJ claimed vit loss after Tammy reported shielding me, up until which point I was assuming that I had been the target. Might explain the weirdness of that?)
I think the worlds where Tubba's not scum are...nigh non-existent now? I'm curious to how KJ answers my question on him. (1) Tubba's a safe yeet, basically.
(2) I think I want to yeet HR first though:
I believe he flips red no matter what, and it comes down to what he flips: Vit Thief or something else.
If it's vit thief, that strongly works towards clearing KJ, insinuating that HR shot KJ and may have had only a limited amount of shots, or may be an even-Nights only ability. The team is just HR/Tubba/{Vaimes or Boom - depending on how the Days unfold}
If he's not vit thief, KJ is back on the menu and potentially it's just HR/KJ/Tubba and the whole vit thief thing was just theater that was executed badly.
Here's my tired attempt to look at the math of it:
soD7: 4v1
eoD7: Vaimes/Boom scum (Boom likely if still alive) = 4
WIN!
--
soD5: 7v3
eoD5: HR scum yeet = 7v2 & KJ sus & choosing Boom's target (Bur?)
N5: NK + vit thief = 5v2
soD6: 5v2
eoD6: Tubba/KJ, followed by KJ/Tubba (barring assessment on likelihood), we WIN!
--
Worst case scenario,
soD5: 7v3
eoD5: HR town yeet = 6v3 & KJ clear
N5: NK + vit thief = 4v3
soD6: 4v3 - not great place to be but. Eh. I'm tired.
I'm aware there are Other Worlds that are possible that I didn't touch on, feel free to discuss on those yourself as I just kind of focused on the important ones. Let's talk about whether this works and why.
Honestly, (3) a second glance right now by me kind of shows that there may not be any sort of significant benefit to whether Tubba goes first or HR does, aside from when KJ is "confirmed" (which I do want but may not be crucial).
(4) So yes, declaring my intention/willingness to vote HR.
In (1) I state that Tubba's probably scum so he's likely a safe yeet here. This is still true.
It's followed immediately by (2) where I propose HR as a preferable yeet to Tubba.
The reason is because Tubba (almost) never flips vit thief: Tubba is OG witter (I didn't go over this in the post, but it felt obvious, I was witted by him), and we definitely need to catch the vit thief today.
HR has a high likelihood of being the vit thief, imo, as it clears up the confusion we've had on the pingings - it fits like a perfect piece of the puzzle. I also stated certainty that he always flips red, just might not be vit thief. I expected to get some pushback on these statements, not for them to be ignored entirely as they seem to have been.
(3) After talking out my process I admit that based on my math, it may not be necessary to resolve HR over Tubba first, but I invited everyone to talk to me about it, I didn't make it a foregone conclusion. I also point out the benefits for it are still there, specially as it clears you definitely and gets rid of the vit thief.
(4) I end the entire post by reaffirming that, yes, my intention as of now is to yeet HR first.
Having taken the time to write this out, seriously KJ, I still don't see how there's any confusion to my intentions.
RE: Vit Thieves There's unexplained vit loss? Where?
Also, you're forgetting that Scum had the NK, a super-spy interferer, a RBer, and an OG wit on top of the vit thief. It's not 100% underpowered when you take the whole picture in.
Like, ok, fine, it's not impossible scum would have two vit pingers in a setup lie this, but I already know I'm not scum so I guess that's part of why it feels like a pointless line of thought.
As for vit targets, write it down. Like, even I know them by memory now:
I guess the best answer to your question is: why can't there be two scum vit thieves? One vit point is not a lot of killing power.
Can someone refresh me on who the vit targets were and confirmation that they were targeted by chance?
We know the NK damages Vit, just from a game design perspective having two scum vit thieves and the NK vit damage is a lot of very samey powers for the mafia. I don't think it's as straight forward as that. The only thing I can think of is if mafia can divide the NK vit damage however they please so they can do like, 4 damage to one person or like 2, 1, 1 and spread it around. That would be an interesting anti-claim mechanic where the mafia get a big advantage if people reveal too much info and it's easier to guess how much Vit everyone has. Kinda OP though since we could be in LYLO, get the right yeet and still lose. So if that's really the design I'm going to have words with grape about it in the post game.
1 Vit is a decent amount of killing power consider at least GJ and I started with 1 Vit. I'm sure there's a few 2s as well. I really don't think scum have that. It's probably just 1 NK and 1 vit thief, which means Sloth is town and I need to rethink either Vaimes or Bur.
Iirc:
N1 HR
N2 KJ and GJ (sloth)
N3 HR and Me (sloth)
N4 Cuth
You pushed Azreal harder than anyone. You pushed Anak. Vaimes has been a lot more wishy washy. Yeah, we've all been wrong. But you've been actively wrong. Unless the scum team is just sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart.
Idk, I just don't see a PoE without you or Vaimes in it, and Vaimes has a lot more "townie uncertainty".
That's not mechanics, that's play. Mechanics is roles and what not.
Do you find that I don't actually believe the cases I made for Az and Anak? Are the conclusions I've drawn manipulated? Otherwise you have to "accept" (or I guess consider since this is mafia) that I pushed those cause I believed them. Even now, I dont see how my arguments were not strong. It's a super hit to the ego, I guess.
Kinda think there's something to be said for the whole "sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart" - making me think that the scumteam is not terribly active this game.
And about the bolded re:KJ?
I agree with you on the quoting.
Right, I'm saying mechanics wise because of the 2 vit pingers you must be town. Tone wise you've got that townie confidence. Action wise you've been proactively helping scum's cause whether intentionally or not, but it's a reason to be suspicious. And PoE wise you are the town read I'm least sure about.
Anak I get, he was super inconsistent and felt like caught scum. But tell me again why you pushed Azreal? I know he was trying to pull some 4D chess thing, but was it not apparent that it was townie motivated?
Regarding "I expect KJ to declare a full solve.", I mean KJ probably dies toNight and he's probably the last person that everyone trusts. So if we can all agree to the next 3 yeets now we can keep that town unity after his departure.
RE: Vaimes Again, I get that that's your point - but is there anything about Vaimes himself, his play, etc. that makes you think he's town?
I don't know if this is funny or sad. You are literally one of the first people I ever played mafia with, and I am so far outside my scumrange that regardless of your alignment I am going to give you a swift asskicking when the dust clears.
RE: Vaimes Again, I get that that's your point - but is there anything about Vaimes himself, his play, etc. that makes you think he's town?
I don't know if this is funny or sad. You are literally one of the first people I ever played mafia with, and I am so far outside my scumrange that regardless of your alignment I am going to give you a swift asskicking when the dust clears.
Like, if so, great. It should really be no surprise to you that I can't read you if so.
@All
Work has been a grind house and I’ve had the mental capacity of a potato. I’ve haven’t even been able to keep up with the thread like I assiduously try to do. If replacing out at this stage of the game made any sense I would, and admittedly should have.
I haven’t been completely inactive. I’ve been sporadically Iso’ing when time has allowed, and I’m coming around to the possibility that Jaime ******* Lannister is doing it to me again. While I think there’s a pretty good case for HR to be scum here, I’d like to talk about some of the things that I’ve gleaned from Vaimes. Vaimes is largely guilty of the same things that made me suspicious of Cuth, but it was easier to miss because he was an active presence in the thread. What he was not, was a active driver of yeets. Considering how comically bad our collective reads have been, that in itself isn’t damning, but if you look at his posts, he doesn’t strongly push anyone. He’s quite content to let us shoot ourselves in the feet and couches everything with a caveat. It’s consistent with an HR partner who spent the majority of the game railing against Wisp and letting town beat its own brains out. That would make the vocal, driving force deep wolf Slothful (to my chagrin) or Boom. I will change my profile picture to me in a tasteful teal teddy if KJ is scum, I have a pretty good and consistent feel for KJ and now that he’s posting, he’s town. (Ironic caveat: if I see something drastic in my eventual catch-up read, I’d amend to a significantly more trashy Merry Widow)
Vaimes’ push on me is consistent with scum keeping a lhf misyeet for endgame, and would explain his actions towards eod2. He didn’t need to bin me then, sowed massive confusion and kept me in the pocket for an easy dump later on.
HR is a counterpoint to flipped townRhand. He’s avoided making any definitive stances by pushing thirder Wisp, dipping his toes into other things when it gets him a dead townie, but never too deep that he can’t talk it back. It is consistent with him not using his claimed ability, (avoiding proving the claim at the same time), with Rhand being eliminated the likelihood of town having another ability to interfere with outside of Tammy’s was low.
Slothful has been a driving force for almost every mislynch, again not damning on its own, but with a rapidly shrinking PoE, and scum needing a yeet leader, he foots that bill. His willingness to default lynch me is concerning and consistent with a scum team holding lhf for endgame. Recall that he was involved in the EOD2 shenanigans that threw the game into confusion.
Boom is someone I can’t really wrap my head around in hard terms. He’s less likely to be the yeet leader, in that he hasn’t pushed as many dead townies as Sloth or Vaimes, but PoE and my initial distrust of Chad puts him in the mix. He just feels soft, too soft for this point in the game. Everyone should have someone they’re pretty confident on and he just feels like liquid trying to fit a shape.
Bur’s role is almost 85% town when you consider Bessie’s role. If there is a scum vit thief, scum wouldn’t likely have two spy/info roles that operate in a similar fashion. The claim that only 0-1 scum doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me, it’s just wine. Play wise, they’ve held out against lynching towns and combined with mechanics, town.
I’m going to save my fawning for post game, but KJ is a player I’d like to be more like. That’s why I feel confident in my reads of them, because I can see how he gets where he’s going. I was concerned early game when they seemed to be coastin under the radar, felt a lot better once they became more active. I had second thoughts looking at his semi claim, not claiming the vit drain, but his play outside of those has felt like townKJ solving the game. In b4 role reveals that he was responsible for D3 Dragonforce.
I haven’t been completely inactive. I’ve been sporadically Iso’ing when time has allowed, and I’m coming around to the possibility that Jaime ******* Lannister is doing it to me again. While I think there’s a pretty good case for HR to be scum here, I’d like to talk about some of the things that I’ve gleaned from Vaimes. Vaimes is largely guilty of the same things that made me suspicious of Cuth, but it was easier to miss because he was an active presence in the thread. What he was not, was a active driver of yeets. Considering how comically bad our collective reads have been, that in itself isn’t damning, but if you look at his posts, he doesn’t strongly push anyone. He’s quite content to let us shoot ourselves in the feet and couches everything with a caveat. It’s consistent with an HR partner who spent the majority of the game railing against Wisp and letting town beat its own brains out. That would make the vocal, driving force deep wolf Slothful (to my chagrin) or Boom. I will change my profile picture to me in a tasteful teal teddy if KJ is scum, I have a pretty good and consistent feel for KJ and now that he’s posting, he’s town. (Ironic caveat: if I see something drastic in my eventual catch-up read, I’d amend to a significantly more trashy Merry Widow)
Vaimes’ push on me is consistent with scum keeping a lhf misyeet for endgame, and would explain his actions towards eod2. He didn’t need to bin me then, sowed massive confusion and kept me in the pocket for an easy dump later on.
Jamie Lannister? What?
I'm just going to point out that you're pushing a read that being with Vaimes being guilty of the same things confirmed!town Cuth was guilty of, meaning Vaimes = scum. Which. Uh.
I agree that Vaimes hasn't pushed anyone in a significant way, which is annoying.
You think Vaimes purposefully didn't vote you D2 because he was playing the long con to get you off toDay? I guess it's not impossible but. Doesn't sound like a Vaimes thing. It sounds like a me thing sort of? And I'm the one arguing to kill you toMorrow.
HR is a counterpoint to flipped townRhand. He’s avoided making any definitive stances by pushing thirder Wisp, dipping his toes into other things when it gets him a dead townie, but never too deep that he can’t talk it back. It is consistent with him not using his claimed ability, (avoiding proving the claim at the same time), with Rhand being eliminated the likelihood of town having another ability to interfere with outside of Tammy’s was low.
We have had 3.5 confirmed town players with protective abilities: Tammy, Rhand, Anak, Cantrip+Silver make .5. There are multiple similar rols in this game even outside of the protections.
How are you defining "never too deep" on Wisp re: HR.
Slothful has been a driving force for almost every mislynch, again not damning on its own, but with a rapidly shrinking PoE, and scum needing a yeet leader, he foots that bill. His willingness to default lynch me is concerning and consistent with a scum team holding lhf for endgame. Recall that he was involved in the EOD2 shenanigans that threw the game into confusion.
Is everyone going to point this out? Yes, I was wrong. Sucks. No need to keep ******* kicking me.
Willingness? I'm advocating for someone else, you loon.
Boom is someone I can’t really wrap my head around in hard terms. He’s less likely to be the yeet leader, in that he hasn’t pushed as many dead townies as Sloth or Vaimes, but PoE and my initial distrust of Chad puts him in the mix. He just feels soft, too soft for this point in the game. Everyone should have someone they’re pretty confident on and he just feels like liquid trying to fit a shape.
Please explain to me nice and slow how a No Yeet is at all beneficial for the scumteam rather than just killing you.
I can't believe people are still trying to read into that vote mishap. Even if it was planned, it didn't take into account Gentleman Johnny forgetting the one rule of his role.
Jamie Lannister? What?
I'm just going to point out that you're pushing a read that being with Vaimes being guilty of the same things confirmed!town Cuth was guilty of, meaning Vaimes = scum. Which. Uh.
I agree that Vaimes hasn't pushed anyone in a significant way, which is annoying.
You think Vaimes purposefully didn't vote you D2 because he was playing the long con to get you off toDay? I guess it's not impossible but. Doesn't sound like a Vaimes thing. It sounds like a me thing sort of? And I'm the one arguing to kill you toMorrow.
We have had 3.5 confirmed town players with protective abilities: Tammy, Rhand, Anak, Cantrip+Silver make .5. There are multiple similar rols in this game even outside of the protections.
How are you defining "never too deep" on Wisp re: HR.
Is everyone going to point this out? Yes, I was wrong. Sucks. No need to keep ******* kicking me.
Willingness? I'm advocating for someone else, you loon.
yep.
He's talking about Game of Thrones mafia where I was scum!Jamie Lannister and almost won.
Please explain to me nice and slow how a No Yeet is at all beneficial for the scumteam rather than just killing you.
I mean, technically, a no-yeet followed the next day by yeeting Azreal anyway did benefit scum. The yeet is towns weapon, failing to yeet is a better outcome for scum then even a missyeet because it leaves the missyeetables in the game for later.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I mean, technically, a no-yeet followed the next day by yeeting Azreal anyway did benefit scum. The yeet is towns weapon, failing to yeet is a better outcome for scum then even a missyeet because it leaves the missyeetables in the game for later.
Nobody on MTGS likes No Yeeting. Not villagers, not mafia. Despite that it seems to keep happening once every other game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
For the benefit of Sloth and others, let me restate how my role works:
I'm Verity, Town King-in-Waiting. I started with 4 Vitality.
I have an anytime action that allows me to become a dragon. After transforming, I slumber. While slumbering, my vitality becomes one, and I can only post once every 24 hours with any content that isn't just voting or unvoting. Also while slumbering, I can create a chat group with someone that lasts for 2 phases. This chat is different from The Skill (which I can also use). Anyone who is in this chat group with me gains the strongman passive (abilities cannot be blocked, redirected, or prevented).
If you're wondering how waking up works, the answer is I don't. Ever. I stay slumbering for the rest of the game. Yeah, no, I asked Grape the same question. "How does waking up work?" It doesn't. I don't. If you're thinking to yourself, "Highroller, that's insane. Surely this role must wake up at some point. No one would create a role THAT bad," then be prepared to have your ******* mind blown, because this is the role equivalent of Gyarados evolving into Magikarp.
Also that happened two months ago don't act like this is a huge gotcha.
Oh, no, it's a gotcha. If you actually voted for him for reasons that you were actively considering as opposed to opportunistic bandwagoning, I feel like you would have actually remembered why you voted. At the very least, I feel like you should have remembered CC's self-own to have taken place after your vote.
Quick question: Everyone seems very willing to accept that BoomFrog's role is town. May I ask why, from a mechanical perspective?
I personally think the lynch should be either Vaimes, BoomFrog, or Sloth. Vaimes because I caught him in a lie and because he's been hanging in the background too much, BoomFrog because I don't trust his role ability, and Sloth because his analysis his analysis has been absolutely abysmal.
I would like to not vote KJ unless I have to, but if he's not going to budge from wanting to vote me then I won't have any other choice.
Everyone seems to regard Tubba as mafia and Bur as town, you guys will need to explain the basis behind both of those to me.
Yeah ok, you think I'm lying about something very easily verifiable? How about I misremembered and didn't feel it was important enough to open my own ISO?
That has got to be the laziest scumread I have ever seen. Over 4000+ posts of content and you come up with "caught him in a lie about a naked vote on Day 1."
And no, everyone is not going to re-explain the reads we've been going over for literal weeks now sub-24 hours to deadline just because you spent the entire game up Wisp's ass. If you read the game, which reads/reasoning do you disagree with specifically for scum!Tubba or town!Bur?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
If you're wondering how waking up works, the answer is I don't. Ever. I stay slumbering for the rest of the game. Yeah, no, I asked Grape the same question. "How does waking up work?" It doesn't. I don't. If you're thinking to yourself, "Highroller, that's insane. Surely this role must wake up at some point. No one would create a role THAT bad," then be prepared to have your ******* mind blown, because this is the role equivalent of Gyarados evolving into Magikarp.
Uh. What.
Everything in how your role is worded suggested you would wake up?
...Super annoyed this is becoming a common trend this game.
Oh, no, it's a gotcha. If you actually voted for him for reasons that you were actively considering as opposed to opportunistic bandwagoning, I feel like you would have actually remembered why you voted. At the very least, I feel like you should have remembered CC's self-own to have taken place after your vote.
I don't follow this. Can you rephrase it from scratch?
I personally think the lynch should be either Vaimes, BoomFrog, or Sloth. Vaimes because I caught him in a lie and because he's been hanging in the background too much, BoomFrog because I don't trust his role ability, and Sloth because his analysis his analysis has been absolutely abysmal.
Rude.
Also, wtf. Didn't you agree with a lot of my thoughts at the time? So because I believed it I'm yeetable, but because you did, you're...what?
Bur is town because the main argument for him being scum is "he's lurky." But apparently he's been active enough in his Skill chats to rack up 500+ QT posts between him and his chat partners, which would defeat the purpose of lurking. And if having a lot of Skill partners was advantageous to his team in some way mechanically, he's under no obligation to be active there.
Tubba is scum because he was almost killed with a wagon of 95% villagers, he fits on most teams because he doesn't have a lot of fleshed out pushes or interactions, and as far as I can tell the only thing in his favor are his emotional outbursts, which are dubious at best. KJ can correct me on this if he feels a need to, since I think he's the only person arguing Tubba could be town.
@Sloth
I make note of the similar reasoning regarding Cuth and Vaimes and address it in the post.
I’m still catching up from almost two days ago, at that point I recall you being more than comfortable with yeeting me.
HR was very deep on Wisp, less deep on those slots he actually voted. I feel like you need to actually parse through my post again. It’s probably bigger than it needs to be, but I feel like I covered most of the things you are bringing up.
As for the nolynch, it is beneficial if it muddies the waters for town (check), leaves a misyeet in the pool (check), makes a townie look bad (check), basically it’s a Costco vat of wine poured all over the place.
Oh also Tubba is using the exact same scenario to clear and condemn me. "Vaimes is cleared for not voting me Day 2" has become "Vaimes was saving me to misyeet later." That only works if I'm literally psychic.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. In LYLO town have to vote together, 100% as a block. We can't afford to be wishy washy and push for our favorite scum-read. If KJ is for example pushing that we vote HR and I think Tubba is most likely either I have to convince KJ I'm right or I have to follow his decision.
You pushed Azreal harder than anyone. You pushed Anak. Vaimes has been a lot more wishy washy. Yeah, we've all been wrong. But you've been actively wrong. Unless the scum team is just sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart.
Idk, I just don't see a PoE without you or Vaimes in it, and Vaimes has a lot more "townie uncertainty".
P.S. I hate quoting on this forum....
I thought I would get ***** for proposing a NON-Tubba yeet, not this bs.
On topic: What is happening? I leave you lot alone for a few days and you forget everything I said? I've been looking for the vit pinger.
Do you find that I don't actually believe the cases I made for Az and Anak? Are the conclusions I've drawn manipulated? Otherwise you have to "accept" (or I guess consider since this is mafia) that I pushed those cause I believed them. Even now, I dont see how my arguments were not strong. It's a super hit to the ego, I guess.
Kinda think there's something to be said for the whole "sitting back and watching us tear ourselves apart" - making me think that the scumteam is not terribly active this game.
And about the bolded re:KJ?
I agree with you on the quoting.
I had the feeling you'd mess this one up.
See, CropCircles absolutely did say that on post 1026:
But you voted for him earlier on post 967 with no explanation:
So I'll ask you again: why did you vote for CC?
And I'll ask everyone else: why shouldn't we vote Vaimes?
Iirc you were the first to propose Tubba as a serious alternative to HR, and in a scum world where you're scum with HR, an alternative is just what you need to win. So what's with the overly emotional response?
And with regard to the two vit thieves, my point is that we don't know where it came from. We can't clear you just because there is unexplained vit loss. Maybe you didn't do it at night, maybe you have a day ability that drains vitality that night. Or maybe you're doing something else on top of your vit drain, and the other one does something else.
I guess the best answer to your question is: why can't there be two scum vit thieves? One vit point is not a lot of killing power.
Can someone refresh me on who the vit targets were and confirmation that they were targeted by chance?
I'm bringing this up here specifically because what overly emotional response? All I did was express massive confusion over you and vaimes saying I was proposing the exact opposite than what I actually proposed - and I honestly don't see how that's not a perfectly appropriate response to it.
Re: Tubba/HR So I guess we have to break down the post in question, because you are wrong, and I'm not sure where the disconnect is occurring. I bolded the relevant parts:
In (1) I state that Tubba's probably scum so he's likely a safe yeet here. This is still true.
It's followed immediately by (2) where I propose HR as a preferable yeet to Tubba.
The reason is because Tubba (almost) never flips vit thief: Tubba is OG witter (I didn't go over this in the post, but it felt obvious, I was witted by him), and we definitely need to catch the vit thief today.
HR has a high likelihood of being the vit thief, imo, as it clears up the confusion we've had on the pingings - it fits like a perfect piece of the puzzle. I also stated certainty that he always flips red, just might not be vit thief. I expected to get some pushback on these statements, not for them to be ignored entirely as they seem to have been.
(3) After talking out my process I admit that based on my math, it may not be necessary to resolve HR over Tubba first, but I invited everyone to talk to me about it, I didn't make it a foregone conclusion. I also point out the benefits for it are still there, specially as it clears you definitely and gets rid of the vit thief.
(4) I end the entire post by reaffirming that, yes, my intention as of now is to yeet HR first.
Having taken the time to write this out, seriously KJ, I still don't see how there's any confusion to my intentions.
RE: Vit Thieves There's unexplained vit loss? Where?
Also, you're forgetting that Scum had the NK, a super-spy interferer, a RBer, and an OG wit on top of the vit thief. It's not 100% underpowered when you take the whole picture in.
Like, ok, fine, it's not impossible scum would have two vit pingers in a setup lie this, but I already know I'm not scum so I guess that's part of why it feels like a pointless line of thought.
As for vit targets, write it down. Like, even I know them by memory now:
N2: KJ (by ?), GJ (by me)
N3: HR (by ?), Boom (by me)
N4: Cuth or Tammy, prob Cuth (by ?)
No one else reported vit loss that wasn't a result of their own actions, to memory.
RE: Vaimes Again, I get that that's your point - but is there anything about Vaimes himself, his play, etc. that makes you think he's town?
1 Vit is a decent amount of killing power consider at least GJ and I started with 1 Vit. I'm sure there's a few 2s as well. I really don't think scum have that. It's probably just 1 NK and 1 vit thief, which means Sloth is town and I need to rethink either Vaimes or Bur.
Iirc:
N1 HR
N2 KJ and GJ (sloth)
N3 HR and Me (sloth)
N4 Cuth
Anak I get, he was super inconsistent and felt like caught scum. But tell me again why you pushed Azreal? I know he was trying to pull some 4D chess thing, but was it not apparent that it was townie motivated?
I voted him because I didn't have a townread on him and was fine running him up. That's pretty much it.
This is a post.
I need to sleep.
I will try to post again before this phase ends.
PS: don't become a teacher, you will never again see free time on your time tables.
My vote is going on Tubba. When in doubt, I think it's best to just kill the one most likely to be mafia, even if it isn't mechanically optimal.
******* timezones.
Fine with Tubba if we end up there. But! May I interest you in a fun vit thief yeet?
Like, if so, great. It should really be no surprise to you that I can't read you if so.
I realized as I wrote that post that I'm a hypocrite so like. Ditto lmao.
I made that whole post about it, and yes, Tubba's still the safest call.
However, assuming we go into Night at 4v2 and one of those two is the vit thief, we run the risk of waking up D6 with 2v2, autoloss.
Work has been a grind house and I’ve had the mental capacity of a potato. I’ve haven’t even been able to keep up with the thread like I assiduously try to do. If replacing out at this stage of the game made any sense I would, and admittedly should have.
I haven’t been completely inactive. I’ve been sporadically Iso’ing when time has allowed, and I’m coming around to the possibility that Jaime ******* Lannister is doing it to me again. While I think there’s a pretty good case for HR to be scum here, I’d like to talk about some of the things that I’ve gleaned from Vaimes. Vaimes is largely guilty of the same things that made me suspicious of Cuth, but it was easier to miss because he was an active presence in the thread. What he was not, was a active driver of yeets. Considering how comically bad our collective reads have been, that in itself isn’t damning, but if you look at his posts, he doesn’t strongly push anyone. He’s quite content to let us shoot ourselves in the feet and couches everything with a caveat. It’s consistent with an HR partner who spent the majority of the game railing against Wisp and letting town beat its own brains out. That would make the vocal, driving force deep wolf Slothful (to my chagrin) or Boom. I will change my profile picture to me in a tasteful teal teddy if KJ is scum, I have a pretty good and consistent feel for KJ and now that he’s posting, he’s town. (Ironic caveat: if I see something drastic in my eventual catch-up read, I’d amend to a significantly more trashy Merry Widow)
Vaimes’ push on me is consistent with scum keeping a lhf misyeet for endgame, and would explain his actions towards eod2. He didn’t need to bin me then, sowed massive confusion and kept me in the pocket for an easy dump later on.
HR is a counterpoint to flipped townRhand. He’s avoided making any definitive stances by pushing thirder Wisp, dipping his toes into other things when it gets him a dead townie, but never too deep that he can’t talk it back. It is consistent with him not using his claimed ability, (avoiding proving the claim at the same time), with Rhand being eliminated the likelihood of town having another ability to interfere with outside of Tammy’s was low.
Slothful has been a driving force for almost every mislynch, again not damning on its own, but with a rapidly shrinking PoE, and scum needing a yeet leader, he foots that bill. His willingness to default lynch me is concerning and consistent with a scum team holding lhf for endgame. Recall that he was involved in the EOD2 shenanigans that threw the game into confusion.
Boom is someone I can’t really wrap my head around in hard terms. He’s less likely to be the yeet leader, in that he hasn’t pushed as many dead townies as Sloth or Vaimes, but PoE and my initial distrust of Chad puts him in the mix. He just feels soft, too soft for this point in the game. Everyone should have someone they’re pretty confident on and he just feels like liquid trying to fit a shape.
Bur’s role is almost 85% town when you consider Bessie’s role. If there is a scum vit thief, scum wouldn’t likely have two spy/info roles that operate in a similar fashion. The claim that only 0-1 scum doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me, it’s just wine. Play wise, they’ve held out against lynching towns and combined with mechanics, town.
I’m going to save my fawning for post game, but KJ is a player I’d like to be more like. That’s why I feel confident in my reads of them, because I can see how he gets where he’s going. I was concerned early game when they seemed to be coastin under the radar, felt a lot better once they became more active. I had second thoughts looking at his semi claim, not claiming the vit drain, but his play outside of those has felt like townKJ solving the game. In b4 role reveals that he was responsible for D3 Dragonforce.
I'm just going to point out that you're pushing a read that being with Vaimes being guilty of the same things confirmed!town Cuth was guilty of, meaning Vaimes = scum. Which. Uh.
I agree that Vaimes hasn't pushed anyone in a significant way, which is annoying.
You think Vaimes purposefully didn't vote you D2 because he was playing the long con to get you off toDay? I guess it's not impossible but. Doesn't sound like a Vaimes thing. It sounds like a me thing sort of? And I'm the one arguing to kill you toMorrow.
We have had 3.5 confirmed town players with protective abilities: Tammy, Rhand, Anak, Cantrip+Silver make .5. There are multiple similar rols in this game even outside of the protections.
How are you defining "never too deep" on Wisp re: HR.
Is everyone going to point this out? Yes, I was wrong. Sucks. No need to keep ******* kicking me.
Willingness? I'm advocating for someone else, you loon.
yep.
I can't believe people are still trying to read into that vote mishap. Even if it was planned, it didn't take into account Gentleman Johnny forgetting the one rule of his role.
Still want HR today.
I just feel like Tubba has made some townie posts. I haven't seen that from HR.
I'm Verity, Town King-in-Waiting. I started with 4 Vitality.
I have an anytime action that allows me to become a dragon. After transforming, I slumber. While slumbering, my vitality becomes one, and I can only post once every 24 hours with any content that isn't just voting or unvoting. Also while slumbering, I can create a chat group with someone that lasts for 2 phases. This chat is different from The Skill (which I can also use). Anyone who is in this chat group with me gains the strongman passive (abilities cannot be blocked, redirected, or prevented).
If you're wondering how waking up works, the answer is I don't. Ever. I stay slumbering for the rest of the game. Yeah, no, I asked Grape the same question. "How does waking up work?" It doesn't. I don't. If you're thinking to yourself, "Highroller, that's insane. Surely this role must wake up at some point. No one would create a role THAT bad," then be prepared to have your ******* mind blown, because this is the role equivalent of Gyarados evolving into Magikarp.
Oh, no, it's a gotcha. If you actually voted for him for reasons that you were actively considering as opposed to opportunistic bandwagoning, I feel like you would have actually remembered why you voted. At the very least, I feel like you should have remembered CC's self-own to have taken place after your vote.
Quick question: Everyone seems very willing to accept that BoomFrog's role is town. May I ask why, from a mechanical perspective?
I personally think the lynch should be either Vaimes, BoomFrog, or Sloth. Vaimes because I caught him in a lie and because he's been hanging in the background too much, BoomFrog because I don't trust his role ability, and Sloth because his analysis his analysis has been absolutely abysmal.
I would like to not vote KJ unless I have to, but if he's not going to budge from wanting to vote me then I won't have any other choice.
Everyone seems to regard Tubba as mafia and Bur as town, you guys will need to explain the basis behind both of those to me.
Everything in how your role is worded suggested you would wake up?
...Super annoyed this is becoming a common trend this game.
I don't follow this. Can you rephrase it from scratch?
Absolutely no one has said that they're willing to accept Boom's role as town this late in the game. He's in most/all POEs.
Rude.
Also, wtf. Didn't you agree with a lot of my thoughts at the time? So because I believed it I'm yeetable, but because you did, you're...what?
What the hell does this mean? Why would you vote KJ if you think he's town? How does voting him at all do anything?
Tubba's the last OG Witter, so probability. Plus his play which has been discussed.
Why would Bessie skill his scummate (Bur)? That makes no sense.
Bur is town because the main argument for him being scum is "he's lurky." But apparently he's been active enough in his Skill chats to rack up 500+ QT posts between him and his chat partners, which would defeat the purpose of lurking. And if having a lot of Skill partners was advantageous to his team in some way mechanically, he's under no obligation to be active there.
Tubba is scum because he was almost killed with a wagon of 95% villagers, he fits on most teams because he doesn't have a lot of fleshed out pushes or interactions, and as far as I can tell the only thing in his favor are his emotional outbursts, which are dubious at best. KJ can correct me on this if he feels a need to, since I think he's the only person arguing Tubba could be town.
I make note of the similar reasoning regarding Cuth and Vaimes and address it in the post.
I’m still catching up from almost two days ago, at that point I recall you being more than comfortable with yeeting me.
HR was very deep on Wisp, less deep on those slots he actually voted. I feel like you need to actually parse through my post again. It’s probably bigger than it needs to be, but I feel like I covered most of the things you are bringing up.
As for the nolynch, it is beneficial if it muddies the waters for town (check), leaves a misyeet in the pool (check), makes a townie look bad (check), basically it’s a Costco vat of wine poured all over the place.