KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I thought Sloth was the first person to call his role a vit thief, hilariously outing himself in a Freudian slip since he didn't claim he gets to keep the vit.
I wasn't gonna push it but postgame I was gonna laugh about it because it's funny.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm here, but I'm going to be V/LA-ish this weekend. We got new instructions regarding corona situation and upcoming exam week, so I need to redo all my plans (and exams!) over this weekend, so no free time for me
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Why would the mafia shoot you N3? You declared your role super transparently, If you are town the mafia knew your vit was high. Why waste a shot on you?
Probably because I posted this. (In response to you.)
HR:I'm not gonna fall into the trap I fell into in Seasons called "Find the Missing Scum Ability" because that backfired like crazy last time. Arguing that you can't be the second vit thief because you claimed a different role is pointless because you haven't proved you're not yet. Nor have I. Nor has Bur for that matter. On top of that neighborhood ability Bur has, he could ALSO have a vit steal. This is a Specialty. Roles can be as complex or simple as anything (which is why I'm not really pushing Sloth not having more abilities as alignment indicative. It's a boring role and I hope he's lying, but he could theoretically have it.) Your argument is beginning from the point where you think we should think you have that role, but we can't know that.
What I'm arguing is it makes very little sense to argue that I'm mafia and not, in turn, believe that you are mafia as well.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
How is it ridiculous? Either there's a second shooter or there isn't. If there isn't, then I'm lying and so are you, so we're both mafia. If there is, then the shooter must be mafia because if he were town, he would have claimed. If he's mafia, why would he shoot me if I'm also mafia? If I'm mafia and lying about getting shot, what prevents you from also being mafia and also lying about getting shot?
HR:I'm not gonna fall into the trap I fell into in Seasons called "Find the Missing Scum Ability" because that backfired like crazy last time. Arguing that you can't be the second vit thief because you claimed a different role is pointless because you haven't proved you're not yet. Nor have I. Nor has Bur for that matter. On top of that neighborhood ability Bur has, he could ALSO have a vit steal. This is a Specialty. Roles can be as complex or simple as anything (which is why I'm not really pushing Sloth not having more abilities as alignment indicative. It's a boring role and I hope he's lying, but he could theoretically have it.) Your argument is beginning from the point where you think we should think you have that role, but we can't know that.
To clarify, were it confirmed I had that role, would you then argue I was town?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey so here's another thing. I just iso'd HR and heavily believe he's Mafia.
He doesn't appear very interested in having town reads at all. His scum reads are either on Wisp or on Anak/Az and I think there's was a bit on Rhand earlier. Except for the Az read, his scum reads don't have a whole lot of progression, In general his reads don't have any evolution.
His singular focus on Wisp only gets broken when he's voting Az. He's not pushing in the right places when he does push, I just don't think he's playing the town game.
I recall hearing that there's meta about him tunneling, but that shouldn't prevent him from reexamination of his reads, ever? There's none of those revolution moments that comes from realizing something during investigation of reads.
Also he never answered about his top 3 town reads for me.
Throughout this game, you keep defaulting to trying to find people to yeet. There's not a whole lot of evidence of you analyzing your reads, looking back on them. There's not a whole lot of (possibly none) you having a scumread on someone, then changing your mind because of posts.
You spent all game gunnin g for Wisp while taking potshots at now-dead-town (Rhand,Az, Cuth, Anak)
(Sidenote, you do poke Bur a bit in post 1500, who's not dead, but.)
I feel like your motives are clear. You just want to yeet whoever is scummy, and you have a selective interpretation of what that means, because you keep scumreading town. Your reads aren't evolving and I don't believe they're honest.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Throughout this game, you keep defaulting to trying to find people to yeet.
Wow, it's almost like that's what you DO in this game.
There's not a whole lot of evidence of you analyzing your reads, looking back on them. There's not a whole lot of (possibly none) you having a scumread on someone, then changing your mind because of posts.
You spent all game gunnin g for Wisp while taking potshots at now-dead-town (Rhand,Az, Cuth, Anak)
(Sidenote, you do poke Bur a bit in post 1500, who's not dead, but.)
I feel like your motives are clear. You just want to yeet whoever is scummy, and you have a selective interpretation of what that means, because you keep scumreading town. Your reads aren't evolving and I don't believe they're honest.
First of all, yeah, you're right, I've gone after town. My track record's pretty bad. The same is true, however, for every other person here. Nobody who isn't named Cuth can claim otherwise. Hell, I didn't believe CropCircles was mafia prior to his gamethrow, didn't believe that there was anything especially mafia about Cuth, and the person I consistently went after all game was an admitted nontown. I think that makes me far from the worst one here.
Second, this is just asinine.
There's not a whole lot of (possibly none) you having a scumread on someone, then changing your mind because of posts.
What, exactly, was I going to change my mind on?
Rhand died the very first night. Azrael should have been killed the moment GJ flipped town, his behavior was unreliable and erratic to put it mildly, his posts were nonsensical. I defend the choice to kill him under the circumstances. I will also do so with Anak, both in terms of who was the most suspicious and also mechanically with regards to his being witted and the way that worked with Wisp's role.
As for Wisp... seriously? He admitted he was a threat to the town. The fact remains that killing him was a better choice than every other person we've lynched, and the idea to keep him alive to work with the town was utter nonsense. Demonstratively so at this point.
Moreover, I ultimately reversed course on Wisp yesterday once I realized that we wouldn't lose if he won. Because of that I'm now being scumread. So I'm now being scumread for both changing course and refusing to.
At this point, I'm just laughing at the logical somersaults. "Highroller's mafia!" Why am I mafia? "He went after towns!" So did all of you. Also I got shot by the obviously mafia person dealing 1 Vit damage to people twice. "Well maybe you're lying." Ok, if I'm lying, explain Killjoy's claim of the same thing, and the body count after night 4. "Well maybe you're lying but he isn't!" Ok, so where did the other shots go? "Well maybe it's a mafia that can only target someone in specific ways that makes your claims about being shot by the mafia guy untrue but Killjoy's correct!"
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ, yeah, I don't think Bessie makes these two posts about a scum mate. She'd only engage in this level of theater if coached. You know Vaimes better then I do, would he coach her to call him out like this? My impression of him is that he's not... uhh... that proactive.
And if Vaimes is scum we probably just lose so he's town too. Boomfrog is a likely scum for me atm, but I have most of Day 2 still where lots of talk aroubd Boom looks to have happened so that's possible to change. Some presents there for you today at least!
Why do we lose if Vaimes is scum? This sounds to me like an excuse not to even attempt to read Vaimes.
...What is the possibility of a team that includes KJ/HR? Am I high?
Again, I don't understand that question, because I don't understand how you're arguing that I can be mafia and KJ can't be. If I'm mafia, then either the second shooter is town, or he doesn't exist at all and I made him up. If I made him up, how is KJ also claiming he's been hit?
That is the exact opposite of what I was mulling around here. I am aware of what you're saying.
With my impeccable memory and roguish charms, of course. I'm very confident on Tubba and HR.
But really, at the end of the day this is your guys game and I'm just a warm seat. I expect KJ to declare a full solve. And we follow it until we win or lose. I think we've still got about a 50% chance of winning this.
I'm here to help, but my days of being a try hard are over.
So you've essentially...given up on the game?
Why KJ? Do you feel like he's a strong enough player to win the game on his own? Based on what?
I mean you are active but not proactive. You stated opinions but don't push to get what you want. We've missyeeted every day which makes me think scum have been the drivers. Everything points to Sloth except mechanics, but I think I really should throw out the assumption that I have all the pieces to this puzzle.
Meaning you think Vaimes is town>scum?
Also, lol at that. I feel like if you take mechanics out of the equation, I've been the towniest player. With mechanics, the only one mostly cleared is really Bur - I'm second there based on Nigh Actions.
I did ask Grape if that affected my votes, and basically I had one vote that had to be two votes and one that could just be one, but I never had three sus's that I wanted to vote, and probably the most relevant was it was too early to out my role.
Sloth: I mean, paranoia is fine I guess. Who's your scumteam and why again?
I'll get back to you. I've been away for a few days and now I'm going through this from a "this makes sense from POE" perspective and not a "these are my reads and why" perspective."
HR:I'm not gonna fall into the trap I fell into in Seasons called "Find the Missing Scum Ability" because that backfired like crazy last time. Arguing that you can't be the second vit thief because you claimed a different role is pointless because you haven't proved you're not yet. Nor have I. Nor has Bur for that matter. On top of that neighborhood ability Bur has, he could ALSO have a vit steal. This is a Specialty. Roles can be as complex or simple as anything (which is why I'm not really pushing Sloth not having more abilities as alignment indicative. It's a boring role and I hope he's lying, but he could theoretically have it.) Your argument is beginning from the point where you think we should think you have that role, but we can't know that. [/quote]-What happened in Seasons (if you think it's relevant and if you can summarize it)?
-You think scum!Bessie skills scum!neighboring!also-vit-thief!Bur? And no one else? (At least no one has claimed to have been skilled - perhaps they would always kill anyone Bessie skilled)
Wait, actually: @HighRoller: Why didn't you use your ability yesterDay? On Cuth, in case he got RB'd again? Or on the doc Tammy? Walk me through that process, because from a strategic POV, last Night is the perfect time to use your ability on either of those two, and you say you didn't at all? There's no one else to use it on now.
I don't know about this idea that the RB was 1-shot with no info.
Why would the mafia shoot you N3? You declared your role super transparently, If you are town the mafia knew your vit was high. Why waste a shot on you?
Probably because I posted this. (In response to you.)
The hell? HR are you reading posts?
You're being asked why mafia would shoot you N3 in light of the post you're referring to, where you state you have a lot of vit.
First of all, yeah, you're right, I've gone after town. My track record's pretty bad. The same is true, however, for every other person here. Nobody who isn't named Cuth can claim otherwise. Hell, I didn't believe CropCircles was mafia prior to his gamethrow, didn't believe that there was anything especially mafia about Cuth, and the person I consistently went after all game was an admitted nontown. I think that makes me far from the worst one here.
Ok. I was wondering if you maybe thought Cuth (and/or Tammy, which ???) was mafia, and this saves me having to dig through your ISO for it.
So, again, why didn't you use your ability on either of those two? Cuth even claimed he had been RD'ed the day before and your ability was clearly made to counter an RB'er.
@KJ, yeah, I don't think Bessie makes these two posts about a scum mate. She'd only engage in this level of theater if coached. You know Vaimes better then I do, would he coach her to call him out like this? My impression of him is that he's not... uhh... that proactive.
And if Vaimes is scum we probably just lose so he's town too. Boomfrog is a likely scum for me atm, but I have most of Day 2 still where lots of talk aroubd Boom looks to have happened so that's possible to change. Some presents there for you today at least!
Why do we lose if Vaimes is scum? This sounds to me like an excuse not to even attempt to read Vaimes.
I'm willing to take Azrael's word on Sloth and Anak. Can always blame him for town losing if one or both of them are mafia!
Noting this for later. This pings me because it is a safe position to take, since Azrael flipped town.
The subjectiveness of Bessie going only after Town this entire game aside (she did come in swinging for Tammy so she already seems to favor daring play), there are 3 other members of the scumteam, any of which could have coached her towards that, doesn't have to be Vaimes.
Living Players:
Tubba Fett
Bur
Slothful
Vaimes
Highroller
BoomFrog
Killjoy
Can't be scum because...
Slothful: I know I'm town. Objectively there's also proof of my ability being matched by a scum player's, and it'd be pretty unfair for both to be on the same team.
Bur: Bessie wouldn't have skilled their scummate, there's no observable benefit from it. Bessie also seems to not have skilled any other players.
> I'm glad for this 'cause man though, reading back on the ***** about Anak yesterDay looks SO bad for him, to the point where I had to retalk myself into concluding that it just doesnt work with him as scum.
Doubt he's scum because...
Killjoy: Seems solid town and interested in driving the game forward and winning, even now.
> Ability is...weird, being secretive about it right now is potentially not great. Can't prove it, even weirder. Has some discrepancies with GJ, it doesn't fit as the clean counterpart it was originally presented as.
> Lost vit N2. The timing of this claim is...weird too. But too clumsy to be fake? Or...? There's also what this means in terms of HR or of HR/KJ...
> Ugh, I need more people to be ruled out for the yeet, and KJ fits if for no other reason than he's nowhere near as bad as others.
POE scum here...
Tubba: last of the 5 OG Witters left alive. Statistically, has a high chance of being scum on that alone. Hasn't really been pulling his weight despite claims to the contrary. Probably just scum no matter what?
Vaimes: If he's not scum, then Bessie stayed the hell away from all her scummates which is possible, but unlikely.
> Only player that still fits in the grouping of players that hesitated on Anak despite sussing him yesterDay, which given the amount of evidence against him, points to knowing he was town, meaning they were scum. (Bur and Cuth being in that grouping and nearly/completely cleared gives me pause, but really all of them??? I don't get their mentality here)
> Has made weird comments all game, some of which were explained reasonable, some of which were misunderstood, some of which (mudslinging, defacto Anak, stating that I don't believe some of the things I've said for weird reasons and also not following up on it?
> Everyone else seems to be seeing him as strong town for reasons ???
HighRoller: Did not use his claimed ability on the two best players to use it on on what was probably his last chance to use it, for no stated reason. Focus on wisp was brought up, claims is re-reading and we're waiting to see what he says.
> Reported vit loss on N1 and N3 - N3 is weird given his claim, but. If true, then how have both him and KJ been hit by the scum vit thief if he's scum? (a) they could both be scum and lying; (b) he's vit thief?
Boomfrog: More of an absence of towntell, true POE. Chad was bad, but that's just d1 *****. Can't prove ability, potential old argument of too many protectives still applies...
> Has been making effort now that he's actually here: Tubba and Boom are in that same sort of vote where they're not posting a lot. Except when Boom posts, there's effort. Tubba's just skating.
POE being:
Tubba
Highroller
BoomFrog/Vaimes
In semi-accurate order.
@bur nothing came up in your Skill chats?
@KJ Are you still maintaining a town read on Tubba?
@bur & @KJ can you talk to me about your read on Vaimes, again? What am I missing here?
The hell? HR are you reading posts?
You're being asked why mafia would shoot you N3 in light of the post you're referring to, where you state you have a lot of vit.
My role ability allows me to turn into a sleeping dragon. While sleeping, my vit becomes 1, and I can only post a post that contains anything other than just a vote once every 24 hours. Once during each phase while slumbering, I can open up a communication link with a player that lasts up to 2 phases. While I'm asleep, any player who has such a communication link cannot have their role abilities blocked, redirected, or prevented.
Ok. I was wondering if you maybe thought Cuth (and/or Tammy, which ???) was mafia, and this saves me having to dig through your ISO for it.
I wasn't particularly suspicious of Tammy either.
So, again, why didn't you use your ability on either of those two? Cuth even claimed he had been RD'ed the day before and your ability was clearly made to counter an RB'er.
Because my role ability permanently lowers my vit to 1, and I'd gotten dinged twice already. If I'd been hit again, it'd be GG right now.
Ok, so I think this is where I'm at:
KJ worries me, but otherwise the POE seems solid.
(Thinking about it, just realized KJ claimed vit loss after Tammy reported shielding me, up until which point I was assuming that I had been the target. Might explain the weirdness of that?)
I think the worlds where Tubba's not scum are...nigh non-existent now? I'm curious to how KJ answers my question on him.
Tubba's a safe yeet, basically.
I think I want to yeet HR first though:
I believe he flips red no matter what, and it comes down to what he flips: Vit Thief or something else.
If it's vit thief, that strongly works towards clearing KJ, insinuating that HR shot KJ and may have had only a limited amount of shots, or may be an even-Nights only ability. The team is just HR/Tubba/{Vaimes or Boom - depending on how the Days unfold}
If he's not vit thief, KJ is back on the menu and potentially it's just HR/KJ/Tubba and the whole vit thief thing was just theater that was executed badly.
Here's my tired attempt to look at the math of it:
soD7: 4v1
eoD7: Vaimes/Boom scum (Boom likely if still alive) = 4
WIN!
--
soD5: 7v3
eoD5: HR scum yeet = 7v2 & KJ sus & choosing Boom's target (Bur?)
N5: NK + vit thief = 5v2
soD6: 5v2
eoD6: Tubba/KJ, followed by KJ/Tubba (barring assessment on likelihood), we WIN!
--
Worst case scenario,
soD5: 7v3
eoD5: HR town yeet = 6v3 & KJ clear
N5: NK + vit thief = 4v3
soD6: 4v3 - not great place to be but. Eh. I'm tired.
I'm aware there are Other Worlds that are possible that I didn't touch on, feel free to discuss on those yourself as I just kind of focused on the important ones. Let's talk about whether this works and why.
Honestly, a second glance right now by me kind of shows that there may not be any sort of significant benefit to whether Tubba goes first or HR does, aside from when KJ is "confirmed" (which I do want but may not be crucial).
So yes, declaring my intention/willingness to vote HR.
The hell? HR are you reading posts?
You're being asked why mafia would shoot you N3 in light of the post you're referring to, where you state you have a lot of vit.
My role ability allows me to turn into a sleeping dragon. While sleeping, my vit becomes 1, and I can only post a post that contains anything other than just a vote once every 24 hours. Once during each phase while slumbering, I can open up a communication link with a player that lasts up to 2 phases. While I'm asleep, any player who has such a communication link cannot have their role abilities blocked, redirected, or prevented.
...Yeah? So what? Didn't you say you had no intention of using your ability at one point? When was that again?
So, again, why didn't you use your ability on either of those two? Cuth even claimed he had been RD'ed the day before and your ability was clearly made to counter an RB'er.
Because my role ability permanently lowers my vit to 1, and I'd gotten dinged twice already. If I'd been hit again, it'd be GG right now.
So you're saying you thought you were a higher priority to scum than an outted Doctor or Vig?
Alternatively, you're also saying you'd rather the Doc/Vig get blocked instead of use your ability to help Town, because your survival was more important than theirs?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Sloth: When people got the second vote, effectively everyone's first vote got replaced with two votes that had to be placed together. I had a second vote, so I could use that normally. That's what I mean.
In Seasons, I ignored scum!Proph because he proved his ability and the scum had an ability that was unaccounted for. Last was the person who could have done it so I defualted to him being scum. I ended up ISOing his 1300 posts and tried to bury him. Proph then won. Basically the lesson I learned was: We can't know what roles scum actually have, trying to make assumptions based on that is bad.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Highroller, how far along are you on your catchup slash reads on the living players?
Also, I think you mentioned you'd be able to prove your role, but why would you offer to do this when the whole point was you wanted to avoid having one vitality?
Anyone know where HR claimed though? I can't find it.
I'll just claim again.
I'm Verity, the King-in-Waiting. I have 4 vitality. My ability is I turn into a dragon. When I'm a dragon, I become really sleepy and can only post once every 24 hours and my vitality becomes 1. Once per phase during my slumber, I can create a skill channel with a player that lasts 2 phases. I can have multiple versions of these chats up. As long as I'm asleep, any of the people I'm in chat link with cannot have their abilities blocked, redirected, or prevented.
My ability blows, which is why I've never used it.
I don’t understand why highroller doesn’t see the value in his role.
It's probably the worst role in a game whose entire design philosophy might well have been "Make bad roles."
Its usefulness is entirely dependent on my finding another player with an actually worthwhile role ability, it is highly detrimental if used on a hostile, and its cost is enormous. Case in point: if I were to have used it, I would be dead.
You didn't say you'd never use it, but you showed a strong and consistent disdain for your role that I'm unsurprised I remembered as "never gonna use it."
In fairness, this was D4 too, meaning the N1 and N3 pings are not as unlikely (though, honestly, still very likely considering how you seem to play), but does bring us to N4.
Also I'd like to point out the bolded section, which is exactly what I'm talking about and what you only had a chance to actually do N4.
So you're saying you thought you were a higher priority to scum than an outted Doctor or Vig?
If I died, it really wouldn't matter what power roles we had alive, would it? That's how LyLo works.
Once again, your life was at almost zero risk with an outted Doctor or Vig - this isn't even debatable since the deaths overNight were, in fact, the Doctor and the Vig.
I don't know how much I want to give weight to the idea that the RB'er was 1-shot (that strikes me as underpowered to the scumteam when you consider all the powers town has), but at N4 we had no reason to suspect that.
There's also that Tammy had 1 target left for Doctoring - not sure who, but what if it was Cuth and she was the one RB'd? Scenario: You boost Tammy, Tammy protects Cuth, Cuth shoots.
We start toDay with only the 1 town death (Tammy).
There's no guarantee that anything I've just said (except what we know happened by Mod-post) is what happened, but I'm showing you that your choices, assuming your alignment and role are both true, make no sense and are not from a pro-town POV, rather a pro-HR POV.
Which at subjective-best, makes you not a team player, at worst, makes you scum and sabotaging town.
This is also not up for debate.
@Sloth: I'm not ready to rule out two scum vit thieves. Remind me who you claim to target again? Highroller claims he was hit 1/3 and I was hit 2. I recall Silver admitting to being targeted?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
No, we're not "both wrong," you are wrong for saying I said something I never said.
I won't deny that I've expressed that my role ability is bad. It's objectively terrible. I still think that. Had I used it earlier, we'd have lost the game. It's got extreme penalties for little useful reward. Ironically, it seems I managed to accidentally make it useful, as it seems the mafia wasted their shot gunning for the possibility of my having used it. So the ability is only useful when the mafia know I have it but I never actually use it. "Negative utility," I guess this should be called.
Once again, your life was at almost zero risk with an outted Doctor or Vig - this isn't even debatable since the deaths overNight were, in fact, the Doctor and the Vig.
I don't know how much I want to give weight to the idea that the RB'er was 1-shot (that strikes me as underpowered to the scumteam when you consider all the powers town has), but at N4 we had no reason to suspect that.
There's also that Tammy had 1 target left for Doctoring - not sure who, but what if it was Cuth and she was the one RB'd? Scenario: You boost Tammy, Tammy protects Cuth, Cuth shoots.
We start toDay with only the 1 town death (Tammy).
There's no guarantee that anything I've just said (except what we know happened by Mod-post) is what happened, but I'm showing you that your choices, assuming your alignment and role are both true, make no sense and are not from a pro-town POV, rather a pro-HR POV.
Which at subjective-best, makes you not a team player, at worst, makes you scum and sabotaging town.
This is also not up for debate.
Except your analysis is completely wrong.
The mafia were faced with 4 mafia, 6 towns, with their nightkill, and 1-vit ping, right?
Well Tammy was obviously going to be the nightkill. Tammy was the doctor, and also, by virtue of being the doctor, the one person who couldn't be protected by Tammy. So Tammy was going to die. There was nothing that could be done about that. This leaves 5 towns, 4 mafia.
The question was who would be the target of their 1-vit ping. Well, the mafia had two potential targets who might be within kill-range of that ability: Cuth and myself. I had 3 vit, but if I used my ability, I would only have 1 vit. Cuth evidently had 3 vit, and if he spent 2 vit to use his ability, he would have 1 vit.
By not using my ability, I reduced the chances of the mafia winning. Had I used my ability and they pinged me, I would have died and it would be gg. Had I used my ability, it would be permanent, meaning I'd be at 1 vit for the rest of the game.
Now, you're saying I should have used it on Tammy or Cuthalion.
Using it on Tammy would arguably have left us worse off. There was a 0% chance of Tammy being able to prevent the nightkill - again, definitely was going to be Tammy - so all that would have gotten us was my being at 1 vit. This would have us going into day with a potential 5 towns and 4 mafia, with me at 1 vit, in which even if we killed a mafia, we'd have to kill the 1-vit pinger or else we'd still lose. Either we'd lynch a town, or we'd lynch the mafia who wasn't the 1-vit pinger and then the mafia would use their 1-vit ping on me and then the nightkill on any other town. GG.
Even if we had the scenario we have now, in which we know Cuth was going to use his ability, and would kill a mafia from it, that doesn't put us in that much better of a position. The difference is we'd have 5 towns and 3 mafia, and two of those towns would be at 1 vit. It would still be LyLo today.
As for why didn't I use it on Cuth... Why the **** would I use it on Cuth? I wanted Cuth to be roleblocked. You'll remember I was against people using their nightkills. We were going into day with 5 towns and 4 mafia. If Cuth misfired, that would be game. Happily he didn't, and I'm really glad Cuth didn't listen to naysayers like myself, but the fact remains that it was a gamble. The fact also remains that Cuth would not have died if he hadn't used his ability. Had he been roleblocked, or just chosen not to use it, he wouldn't have been able to pay the 2 Vit cost, meaning he'd have 3 Vit, and he'd still be alive. Why else do you think the mafia didn't roleblock him despite him having a kill role?
I maintain I made the correct choice under the circumstances.
@Sloth: Tubba might be scum, but I'm tabling that for now. HR is the first yeet, then we can see who the nk is and reanalyze the PoE from there.
I'm specifically looking at wagons and scum!Tubba makes sense.
Also I've been doing this thing when thinking of HR being scum and thinking Tubba's name in place of HR first... which is weird and Freudian.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Highroller, how far along are you on your catchup slash reads on the living players?
It's going. Unfortunately I've had a whole mess of personal issues come up this weekend that I'd rather not go into. I'm working on it.
Also, I think you mentioned you'd be able to prove your role, but why would you offer to do this when the whole point was you wanted to avoid having one vitality?
Because we're at LyLo, dude. There's no real point in worrying about nightkills or vit pings if we never make it to night.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also, I think you mentioned you'd be able to prove your role, but why would you offer to do this when the whole point was you wanted to avoid having one vitality?
Because we're at LyLo, dude. There's no real point in worrying about nightkills or vit pings if we never make it to night.
By the way, to clarify, this role can be used at any time. I'm not proposing I should be a dragon tonight. That would result in game loss.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Throughout this game, you keep defaulting to trying to find people to yeet. There's not a whole lot of evidence of you analyzing your reads, looking back on them. There's not a whole lot of (possibly none) you having a scumread on someone, then changing your mind because of posts.
You spent all game gunnin g for Wisp while taking potshots at now-dead-town (Rhand,Az, Cuth, Anak)
(Sidenote, you do poke Bur a bit in post 1500, who's not dead, but.)
I feel like your motives are clear. You just want to yeet whoever is scummy, and you have a selective interpretation of what that means, because you keep scumreading town. Your reads aren't evolving and I don't believe they're honest.
Here's the major problem I have.
You criticize me for taking shots at now-dead town.
Except every single town we've lynched, you voted for. Every time a town has been lynched, you voted for them along with me.
So why don't you go ahead and explain to me: why am I mafia again, and what reasons are there for thinking I'm mafia that do not also implicate you, again?
3703
3387
I thought Sloth was the first person to call his role a vit thief, hilariously outing himself in a Freudian slip since he didn't claim he gets to keep the vit.
I wasn't gonna push it but postgame I was gonna laugh about it because it's funny.
Probably because I posted this. (In response to you.)
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/819650-realm-of-the-elderlings-mafia-day-5-bloodier-than?page=47#c2324
What I'm arguing is it makes very little sense to argue that I'm mafia and not, in turn, believe that you are mafia as well.
I feel like you're basically outed scum at this point.
See the problem?
To clarify, were it confirmed I had that role, would you then argue I was town?
And no I would not.
Fun, right?
So "Highroller is mafia" is an unfalsifiable claim for you?
Yeah, someone explain why I'm mafia, again?
Throughout this game, you keep defaulting to trying to find people to yeet. There's not a whole lot of evidence of you analyzing your reads, looking back on them. There's not a whole lot of (possibly none) you having a scumread on someone, then changing your mind because of posts.
You spent all game gunnin g for Wisp while taking potshots at now-dead-town (Rhand,Az, Cuth, Anak)
(Sidenote, you do poke Bur a bit in post 1500, who's not dead, but.)
I feel like your motives are clear. You just want to yeet whoever is scummy, and you have a selective interpretation of what that means, because you keep scumreading town. Your reads aren't evolving and I don't believe they're honest.
Wow, it's almost like that's what you DO in this game.
First of all, yeah, you're right, I've gone after town. My track record's pretty bad. The same is true, however, for every other person here. Nobody who isn't named Cuth can claim otherwise. Hell, I didn't believe CropCircles was mafia prior to his gamethrow, didn't believe that there was anything especially mafia about Cuth, and the person I consistently went after all game was an admitted nontown. I think that makes me far from the worst one here.
Second, this is just asinine.
What, exactly, was I going to change my mind on?
Rhand died the very first night. Azrael should have been killed the moment GJ flipped town, his behavior was unreliable and erratic to put it mildly, his posts were nonsensical. I defend the choice to kill him under the circumstances. I will also do so with Anak, both in terms of who was the most suspicious and also mechanically with regards to his being witted and the way that worked with Wisp's role.
As for Wisp... seriously? He admitted he was a threat to the town. The fact remains that killing him was a better choice than every other person we've lynched, and the idea to keep him alive to work with the town was utter nonsense. Demonstratively so at this point.
Moreover, I ultimately reversed course on Wisp yesterday once I realized that we wouldn't lose if he won. Because of that I'm now being scumread. So I'm now being scumread for both changing course and refusing to.
At this point, I'm just laughing at the logical somersaults. "Highroller's mafia!" Why am I mafia? "He went after towns!" So did all of you. Also I got shot by the obviously mafia person dealing 1 Vit damage to people twice. "Well maybe you're lying." Ok, if I'm lying, explain Killjoy's claim of the same thing, and the body count after night 4. "Well maybe you're lying but he isn't!" Ok, so where did the other shots go? "Well maybe it's a mafia that can only target someone in specific ways that makes your claims about being shot by the mafia guy untrue but Killjoy's correct!"
Yeah, and maybe it's sippable bomb water. You're being silly right now. Also, I have an ability that's pretty damn easy to confirm. "It wouldn't matter! Maybe you have that ability AND also are the vitality mafia guy yourself!"
Or maybe I'm just town...
Sloth, Vaimes: Opinions on the subject?
Besides, with you getting pinged, using your ability would be a death sentence, assuming you're a villager.
@Vaimes: Tubba or Bur?
I'm still flipping through the thread for the rest.
Why KJ? Do you feel like he's a strong enough player to win the game on his own? Based on what?
Meaning you think Vaimes is town>scum?
Also, lol at that. I feel like if you take mechanics out of the equation, I've been the towniest player. With mechanics, the only one mostly cleared is really Bur - I'm second there based on Nigh Actions.
I'll get back to you. I've been away for a few days and now I'm going through this from a "this makes sense from POE" perspective and not a "these are my reads and why" perspective."
HR:I'm not gonna fall into the trap I fell into in Seasons called "Find the Missing Scum Ability" because that backfired like crazy last time. Arguing that you can't be the second vit thief because you claimed a different role is pointless because you haven't proved you're not yet. Nor have I. Nor has Bur for that matter. On top of that neighborhood ability Bur has, he could ALSO have a vit steal. This is a Specialty. Roles can be as complex or simple as anything (which is why I'm not really pushing Sloth not having more abilities as alignment indicative. It's a boring role and I hope he's lying, but he could theoretically have it.) Your argument is beginning from the point where you think we should think you have that role, but we can't know that. [/quote]-What happened in Seasons (if you think it's relevant and if you can summarize it)?
-You think scum!Bessie skills scum!neighboring!also-vit-thief!Bur? And no one else? (At least no one has claimed to have been skilled - perhaps they would always kill anyone Bessie skilled)
Wait, actually: @HighRoller: Why didn't you use your ability yesterDay? On Cuth, in case he got RB'd again? Or on the doc Tammy? Walk me through that process, because from a strategic POV, last Night is the perfect time to use your ability on either of those two, and you say you didn't at all? There's no one else to use it on now.
I don't know about this idea that the RB was 1-shot with no info.
Is the implication here that you think scum has two vit thieves?
You're being asked why mafia would shoot you N3 in light of the post you're referring to, where you state you have a lot of vit.
So, again, why didn't you use your ability on either of those two? Cuth even claimed he had been RD'ed the day before and your ability was clearly made to counter an RB'er.
Er. I think I missed where you see me as scum?
Bessie
Living Players:
Tubba Fett
Bur
Slothful
Vaimes
Highroller
BoomFrog
Killjoy
Can't be scum because...
> Lost vit N2. The timing of this claim is...weird too. But too clumsy to be fake? Or...? There's also what this means in terms of HR or of HR/KJ...
> Ugh, I need more people to be ruled out for the yeet, and KJ fits if for no other reason than he's nowhere near as bad as others.
> Has made weird comments all game, some of which were explained reasonable, some of which were misunderstood, some of which (mudslinging, defacto Anak, stating that I don't believe some of the things I've said for weird reasons and also not following up on it?
> Everyone else seems to be seeing him as strong town for reasons ???
POE being:
Highroller
BoomFrog/Vaimes
In semi-accurate order.
@bur nothing came up in your Skill chats?
@KJ Are you still maintaining a town read on Tubba?
@bur & @KJ can you talk to me about your read on Vaimes, again? What am I missing here?
I wasn't particularly suspicious of Tammy either.
Because my role ability permanently lowers my vit to 1, and I'd gotten dinged twice already. If I'd been hit again, it'd be GG right now.
KJ worries me, but otherwise the POE seems solid.
(Thinking about it, just realized KJ claimed vit loss after Tammy reported shielding me, up until which point I was assuming that I had been the target. Might explain the weirdness of that?)
I think the worlds where Tubba's not scum are...nigh non-existent now? I'm curious to how KJ answers my question on him.
Tubba's a safe yeet, basically.
I think I want to yeet HR first though:
I believe he flips red no matter what, and it comes down to what he flips: Vit Thief or something else.
If it's vit thief, that strongly works towards clearing KJ, insinuating that HR shot KJ and may have had only a limited amount of shots, or may be an even-Nights only ability. The team is just HR/Tubba/{Vaimes or Boom - depending on how the Days unfold}
If he's not vit thief, KJ is back on the menu and potentially it's just HR/KJ/Tubba and the whole vit thief thing was just theater that was executed badly.
Here's my tired attempt to look at the math of it:
eoD5: HR scum-vit-thief yeet = 7v2 & KJ clear & choosing Boom's target (KJ/Bur?)
N5: NK = 6v2
soD6: 6v2
eoD6: Tubba scum-witter yeet = 5v1
N6: NK = 4v1
soD7: 4v1
eoD7: Vaimes/Boom scum (Boom likely if still alive) = 4
WIN!
--
eoD5: HR scum yeet = 7v2 & KJ sus & choosing Boom's target (Bur?)
N5: NK + vit thief = 5v2
soD6: 5v2
eoD6: Tubba/KJ, followed by KJ/Tubba (barring assessment on likelihood), we WIN!
--
soD5: 7v3
eoD5: HR town yeet = 6v3 & KJ clear
N5: NK + vit thief = 4v3
soD6: 4v3 - not great place to be but. Eh. I'm tired.
Honestly, a second glance right now by me kind of shows that there may not be any sort of significant benefit to whether Tubba goes first or HR does, aside from when KJ is "confirmed" (which I do want but may not be crucial).
So yes, declaring my intention/willingness to vote HR.
So you're saying you thought you were a higher priority to scum than an outted Doctor or Vig?
Alternatively, you're also saying you'd rather the Doc/Vig get blocked instead of use your ability to help Town, because your survival was more important than theirs?
If I died, it really wouldn't matter what power roles we had alive, would it? That's how LyLo works.
You're so close.
In Seasons, I ignored scum!Proph because he proved his ability and the scum had an ability that was unaccounted for. Last was the person who could have done it so I defualted to him being scum. I ended up ISOing his 1300 posts and tried to bury him. Proph then won. Basically the lesson I learned was: We can't know what roles scum actually have, trying to make assumptions based on that is bad.
Also, I think you mentioned you'd be able to prove your role, but why would you offer to do this when the whole point was you wanted to avoid having one vitality?
Anyway, we're both wrong:
In fairness, this was D4 too, meaning the N1 and N3 pings are not as unlikely (though, honestly, still very likely considering how you seem to play), but does bring us to N4.
Also I'd like to point out the bolded section, which is exactly what I'm talking about and what you only had a chance to actually do N4.
Once again, your life was at almost zero risk with an outted Doctor or Vig - this isn't even debatable since the deaths overNight were, in fact, the Doctor and the Vig.
I don't know how much I want to give weight to the idea that the RB'er was 1-shot (that strikes me as underpowered to the scumteam when you consider all the powers town has), but at N4 we had no reason to suspect that.
There's also that Tammy had 1 target left for Doctoring - not sure who, but what if it was Cuth and she was the one RB'd? Scenario: You boost Tammy, Tammy protects Cuth, Cuth shoots.
We start toDay with only the 1 town death (Tammy).
There's no guarantee that anything I've just said (except what we know happened by Mod-post) is what happened, but I'm showing you that your choices, assuming your alignment and role are both true, make no sense and are not from a pro-town POV, rather a pro-HR POV.
Which at subjective-best, makes you not a team player, at worst, makes you scum and sabotaging town.
This is also not up for debate.
/points to my musings.
Hm.
I won't deny that I've expressed that my role ability is bad. It's objectively terrible. I still think that. Had I used it earlier, we'd have lost the game. It's got extreme penalties for little useful reward. Ironically, it seems I managed to accidentally make it useful, as it seems the mafia wasted their shot gunning for the possibility of my having used it. So the ability is only useful when the mafia know I have it but I never actually use it. "Negative utility," I guess this should be called.
Except your analysis is completely wrong.
The mafia were faced with 4 mafia, 6 towns, with their nightkill, and 1-vit ping, right?
Well Tammy was obviously going to be the nightkill. Tammy was the doctor, and also, by virtue of being the doctor, the one person who couldn't be protected by Tammy. So Tammy was going to die. There was nothing that could be done about that. This leaves 5 towns, 4 mafia.
The question was who would be the target of their 1-vit ping. Well, the mafia had two potential targets who might be within kill-range of that ability: Cuth and myself. I had 3 vit, but if I used my ability, I would only have 1 vit. Cuth evidently had 3 vit, and if he spent 2 vit to use his ability, he would have 1 vit.
By not using my ability, I reduced the chances of the mafia winning. Had I used my ability and they pinged me, I would have died and it would be gg. Had I used my ability, it would be permanent, meaning I'd be at 1 vit for the rest of the game.
Now, you're saying I should have used it on Tammy or Cuthalion.
Using it on Tammy would arguably have left us worse off. There was a 0% chance of Tammy being able to prevent the nightkill - again, definitely was going to be Tammy - so all that would have gotten us was my being at 1 vit. This would have us going into day with a potential 5 towns and 4 mafia, with me at 1 vit, in which even if we killed a mafia, we'd have to kill the 1-vit pinger or else we'd still lose. Either we'd lynch a town, or we'd lynch the mafia who wasn't the 1-vit pinger and then the mafia would use their 1-vit ping on me and then the nightkill on any other town. GG.
Even if we had the scenario we have now, in which we know Cuth was going to use his ability, and would kill a mafia from it, that doesn't put us in that much better of a position. The difference is we'd have 5 towns and 3 mafia, and two of those towns would be at 1 vit. It would still be LyLo today.
As for why didn't I use it on Cuth... Why the **** would I use it on Cuth? I wanted Cuth to be roleblocked. You'll remember I was against people using their nightkills. We were going into day with 5 towns and 4 mafia. If Cuth misfired, that would be game. Happily he didn't, and I'm really glad Cuth didn't listen to naysayers like myself, but the fact remains that it was a gamble. The fact also remains that Cuth would not have died if he hadn't used his ability. Had he been roleblocked, or just chosen not to use it, he wouldn't have been able to pay the 2 Vit cost, meaning he'd have 3 Vit, and he'd still be alive. Why else do you think the mafia didn't roleblock him despite him having a kill role?
I maintain I made the correct choice under the circumstances.
I'm specifically looking at wagons and scum!Tubba makes sense.
Also I've been doing this thing when thinking of HR being scum and thinking Tubba's name in place of HR first... which is weird and Freudian.
Because we're at LyLo, dude. There's no real point in worrying about nightkills or vit pings if we never make it to night.
I see it as NAI, why?
It doesn't seem to be working.
You criticize me for taking shots at now-dead town.
Except every single town we've lynched, you voted for. Every time a town has been lynched, you voted for them along with me.
So why don't you go ahead and explain to me: why am I mafia again, and what reasons are there for thinking I'm mafia that do not also implicate you, again?