Guys I strongly encourage you to read Azrael's post history. Read the litany of shifting positions: on me, on GJ, on LastWhisper, the list goes on.
Then tell me whether or not you buy into this idea that Azrael is some sort of mafia Amadeus. I dare you.
This is a mafia who is dead to right grasping at straws.
Shifting reads in response to evidence is what I do, plenty of meta on that. It's inexplicable shifts that are troubling, not evidence-based ones. I have no problem admitting when I screw things up, which is essential for anyone who wants to do well in a game of mafia. You'll generally be wrong, quite a bit, in mafia. But by the point in time you've read up enough to have some kind of feel or gauge for every poster in the game, that's where bravado to generate pressure and interest starts bleeding into that peaceful, happy, contented place where you have hacked that forest to bits and you know what all the trees in it look like. And you start to feel where your best odds are going to be.
Doesn't hurt that the experience level of everyone in the game has either been commented on, or is pretty evident, or already known to me from past play. I never realized how much that meta baseline helps until I tried to analyze an invitational playerbase on a foreign website where no one shared meta info and got absolutely, epicly, unforgettably wrecked. Here though? This is home field.
Like your quote says, it's not what he's doing, but how he's doing it. He's doing it assertively, confidently, emotionally, and it reads like someone doing it with true conviction, not to score cheap town cred. And then there's the little details to it that come from a town mentality, such as saying that I'm not necessarily living past the endgame, but that I'm not the lynch for today.
That's good townie instincts and thoughts there, as well as good standard operating procedures. You NEVER fully trust that gifted analyst/vet who has the capability to burn you, you keep your paranoia, but if you're town and they're stirring the pot you wanna keep that and see where it leads. That's dead-on the townie version of that hard defense.
He town-read you his fifth post in, gave no explanation as to why, and has never shown any doubt of you. He's steadfastly defended you at every turn. He's gone against me for challenging your logic in your ridiculous plan that you yourself admitted was flawed, he's gone against the call for you to roleclaim when you were almost lynched the previous day. Again, never once giving a rationale for his unquestioning fealty.
I'm practically about to check Reddit to see if he has a subreddit made to Azrael-Sempai, and yet you claim he's got great operating procedures, totally exercising due skepticism and scrutiny towards you?
You really expect us to buy this?
No, that's just factually not correct. He's explained why he disagrees with your case at multiple points.
His position is that he disagrees with your case, and your timing. I don't know that he has THAT much confidence in the town-read on me (maybe he does, IDK), but he's publicly explained quite clearly that he just doesn't think the case is a good one.
Same reason I hated your Boomfrog vote, back in the day. Not that I was that sure of Boom being town, but that I hated the rationales being used to push for his death by you and Bur.
Chalk that up as another reason NOT to kill Boomfrom if HR/Bur Flip scum, by the way. That was a ridiculous lynch rationale.
Shifting reads in response to evidence is what I do, plenty of meta on that. It's inexplicable shifts that are troubling, not evidence-based ones. I have no problem admitting when I screw things up, which is essential for anyone who wants to do well in a game of mafia. You'll generally be wrong, quite a bit, in mafia. But by the point in time you've read up enough to have some kind of feel or gauge for every poster in the game, that's where bravado to generate pressure and interest starts bleeding into that peaceful, happy, contented place where you have hacked that forest to bits and you know what all the trees in it look like. And you start to feel where your best odds are going to be.
Doesn't hurt that the experience level of everyone in the game has either been commented on, or is pretty evident, or already known to me from past play. I never realized how much that meta baseline helps until I tried to analyze an invitational playerbase on a foreign website where no one shared meta info and got absolutely, epicly, unforgettably wrecked. Here though? This is home field.
That's an overly verbose way of saying you've been wrong all game but you still want us to believe you're a mafia prodigy. Not buying it.
No, that's just factually not correct. He's explained why he disagrees with your case at multiple points.
Until he's actually asked to make a case against me, in which case it becomes transparent that he has none. He's just going after me because I'm going after you, and his trust of you has never once been given a valid reason.
Same reason I hated your Boomfrog vote, back in the day. Not that I was that sure of Boom being town, but that I hated the rationales being used to push for his death by you and Bur.
@Az: What do you think about Anak's relentless defending you? Does that lean you specifically scum for him at all?
@Anak: Why are you so sure Az is town? Was it his claim? Is that why you're so far in his town camp?
Like your quote says, it's not what he's doing, but how he's doing it. He's doing it assertively, confidently, emotionally, and it reads like someone doing it with true conviction, not to score cheap town cred. And then there's the little details to it that come from a town mentality, such as saying that I'm not necessarily living past the endgame, but that I'm not the lynch for today.
That's good townie instincts and thoughts there, as well as good standard operating procedures. You NEVER fully trust that gifted analyst/vet who has the capability to burn you, you keep your paranoia, but if you're town and they're stirring the pot you wanna keep that and see where it leads. That's dead-on the townie version of that hard defense.
Same thing you see from Boom, on a slightly less loud scale. Doesn't have all the same indicia as anak's version, he goes about it in a less decisive and committed way. Can't give him the same credit as Anak without those tells, although I'd certainly note it'd be pretty easy for him to tip the scales over into a dead Azrael, and there's no indication he's ever even thought of doing that. Not the same indicia, but he's darn self-consistent and I don't see any coherent scum mindset or tactics or strategy stemming out of any of his play decisions.
I'm pretty hopeful on that HR/BUR/Cuth/Bessie grouping at this point. It feels right.
Did I say that about Boom? Do you mean HR?
I literally don't remember thinking that about Boom.
I think... Az is right about Anak. Even if I'm wrong about Az, I think Anak is town?
I'm still wary of Tubba, but I'm ok with leaving Az unyeeted today.
So, Bur/Cuth/Bessie/Tubba/Wisp is my list of peoples I wanna yeet today.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Az: What do you think about Anak's relentless defending you? Does that lean you specifically scum for him at all?
@Anak: Why are you so sure Az is town? Was it his claim? Is that why you're so far in his town camp?
Like your quote says, it's not what he's doing, but how he's doing it. He's doing it assertively, confidently, emotionally, and it reads like someone doing it with true conviction, not to score cheap town cred. And then there's the little details to it that come from a town mentality, such as saying that I'm not necessarily living past the endgame, but that I'm not the lynch for today.
That's good townie instincts and thoughts there, as well as good standard operating procedures. You NEVER fully trust that gifted analyst/vet who has the capability to burn you, you keep your paranoia, but if you're town and they're stirring the pot you wanna keep that and see where it leads. That's dead-on the townie version of that hard defense.
Same thing you see from Boom, on a slightly less loud scale. Doesn't have all the same indicia as anak's version, he goes about it in a less decisive and committed way. Can't give him the same credit as Anak without those tells, although I'd certainly note it'd be pretty easy for him to tip the scales over into a dead Azrael, and there's no indication he's ever even thought of doing that. Not the same indicia, but he's darn self-consistent and I don't see any coherent scum mindset or tactics or strategy stemming out of any of his play decisions.
I'm pretty hopeful on that HR/BUR/Cuth/Bessie grouping at this point. It feels right.
Did I say that about Boom? Do you mean HR?
I literally don't remember thinking that about Boom.
I think... Az is right about Anak. Even if I'm wrong about Az, I think Anak is town?
I'm still wary of Tubba, but I'm ok with leaving Az unyeeted today.
So, Bur/Cuth/Bessie/Tubba/Wisp is my list of peoples I wanna yeet today.
Yeah, I combo'd replying to you and HR in the same post there.
First question, with full disclosure of only having read a modicum of toDay's posts: I thought that Silver's assessment of Cuth being an actless scum being unlikely was pretty astute. Now that Silver's flipped town and we know that he was telling the truth, why are people suspecting Cuth?
I did not read all if D1 (I replaced in on D2). So I do not know exactly what quotes you are referring to (will read though if you want to provide a link). But are you really using as an argument that Silver was town, so he must have been correct in his reads??
I posted some pings I had from Cuthalion in my posts #1524 , #2350 , and #2507 .
Between Boom and Chad/Bessie though, I would definitively suggest Bessie as #4 in the lynch order, and Boom back at #5. Reason being, Bessie picked an odd target no one was likely to pursue on her thread entrance, but after that has largely fallen off a cliff. I see one or two posts enabling her to take whatever position she feels she needs to take on me. Main point though, the entrance looks like something she could do to make her activity level look strong without actually taking any flak for it, because Tammy was never going to be lynched off that case. And then following that, she's mostly left the town to its own devices, and hasn't commented nearly as much or as thoroughly as she seems to be capable of doing.
1. I didn’t pick a target. I gave my reads as I saw them, having zero meta knowledge on almost everyone in this game. I’ve explained several times that I wasn’t aware that Tammy is confirmed town from the minute she posts in the sign-up thread and is totally off-limits to suspicion. [/sarcasm]
2. I’m not waffling on you at all. Refer to my previous post #2558 .
3. Ok. Be honest. How much of the content in this game is strongly meta influenced, and how am I supposed to comment on stuff like “Player X always does that when they’re town” or “I’ve never seen Player Y do that as a wolf”??????
I never said you were waffling. Just that you were positioning yourself to be able to vote me, if you needed to. You haven't been inconsistent; it's just a position that I know to be anti-town that you've taken steps to arrive at. Neither pushing hard, nor weakly.
There's nothing very egregious about it, it's measured, smart, self-consistent. It gives you options. It could be meh town play, or it could be very impressive scum play. My money is on you being impressive.
I like that play from you as scum. Very solid and devious, and you were very much the hardest to spot, by a mile.
As for meta, I'd say I've reached a point where personally I try to be able to use it on everyone I can, especially newcomers, but it varies wildly in popularity amongst the rest of the playerbase. If you stick around, which I hope you will, you wouldn't be out of place of our of sync or at much of a disadvantage, I think. I can see why as scum, you'd feel a bit disappointed about Tammy turning out to be a non-starter based on meta concerns. Frankly, I was a little surprised the rest of the town was as confident in that read as they were, but I think it was mainly the combination of meta and her being just naturally townie that solidified that.
I've caught up a little more, and also read everything since my last post.
@Tubba: I'm still re-forming reads, so it's not so much that I think he's town as that I thought Silver's point was a good one.
@Wisp: Explain why if Cuth is a wolf, then Boom is also a wolf? I iso'd Cuth to see what his claim was. Knowing now that he (claims he) chose Boomfrog and then pushed for his yeet, why do you think Boom is a wolf if Chad is a wolf? If he chose Boom, that removes my modgaming element, though; they could still both be town.
@Bessie: No, not saying "Silver was town, so had to be right". I meant that since Silver flipped town, we know that his analysis was sincere (and, I thought, a good point, although obviously not as good as I initially thought).
@Vaimes: Sorry if I missed it/if it's in a post I haven't read yet, but can you confirm that Cuth has claimed in more detail to you in private?
@Cuth: Sorry (argh, I hate this) if you made this clear earlier in your iso than I have time to check currently, but was your "if Boom dies I get something" only active yesterDay (for D2) and if he dies now you don't get the shiny you were hoping for?
While skimming some iso's I also saw Boom's claim, HR's claim, and Boom's suggestion we all skill Tammy. I don't yet know where that discussion ended up (I'm guessing it didn't happen), but the benefits I could see would be a) locking players into a vanilla/non-vanilla claim status, and b) allowing Tammy to look for dichotomies (multiple docs, multiple cops, etc).
Reposting these two sections from my analysis yesterday for emphasis/ease of finding, these are the ones that I was mentioning. I think it's better to read the analysis as a whole rather than a couple orphaned pieces, you get the supporting circumstances and backdrop, but I also wanted to make sure these weren't lost amidst everything else or skimmed over.
They're decisive to understanding these two slots. For Cuth, in particular.
Analysis:
Quote from cuthalion »
i'm mostly sitting back in my chair and occasionally stirring the contents of the slow-cooker that is my mind
feel like i feel fairly strongly about a few players in the game but don't know what i actually think about them
wisp is one
as is gj
i should probably also read the setup at some point
Nah, actually, I'm going to break in here at this first one.
I'm not picking on Cuth for that last sentence, that's NAI. But this is the kind of statement that is EXTREMELY revealing as to his overall mindset.
He's "sitting back". He's occasionally stiring. These are things you say to set expectations low.
And then, that second sentence. Wow! That second sentence. He feels "fairly strongly" about certain players, but he's not yet certain what he thinks!!
Ladies and gentleman. No more perfect scum confession was ever placed into a mafia thread.
Let's break this down.
Ok, so you're scum. You know you're supposed to have opinions of things, right? That's what townies do? And those opinions are strong? So we'd better tell everyone that we have those things. Strong feelings. Yes, very strong.
Are we going to explain anything about what those strong feelings are, share with our fellow players...Nope.
We're going to throw out a cryptic remark, and mention that later on we'll decide what to think about those people. Love that! Which is just the PERFECT description of how scum go about actually thinking and reading the thread. "Hmmm, that was a notable happening. I'd better have a stance on that of some kind, but darn it, I have no idea what it should be yet, that requires actual thought, and if I wait a bit longer I can see which way the wind is blowing and avoid making any missteps! Fantastic, let's just finish up the post with a cavalier, disarming humorous remark to distract from the fact that I'm not actually participating or giving any reads, and go merrily on my way!"
If I could still edit my old mafia tells article, this would be going STRAIGHT into my examples of scum posting list. Don't even need to see his flip.
Quote from Bur »
I mean, I don't like any of Rhand's posts for being incomprehensible, but do I think he's scum for it? No.
And yes, I'm currently skimming the thread for not really having time for deeply reading stuff and for not wanting to drop behind the pulse of the thread.
I'll probably reread things more throughly once I actually have time.
@KJ: I don't really believe in RVS votes behind alignment indicative, so picking a wagon of four RVS votes is basically the same as a t random group of 4 people to me.
Always reserve a kernel of doubt on my cases, but I feel like there's so much you can gather from a post like this, given the context and circumstances and how it fits into the rest of the thread.
Bear in mind. This post is made on page 7, just a few days into the start of the game. No one else is having serious fatigue yet, really, even most of our other time-strapped lurkers. The game is still young, still exciting.
But not for Bur. For Bur, this game is already a chore. The analysis feels like work. He's skimming. Trying not to drop too far behind - although the thread really isn't moving all that fast.
He feels the need to reiterate this excuse multiple times, that he doesn't have time. Once, I'd get. Three times? That's more of a nervous tic. There's not having time, and then there's not FEELING like you have a time.
When I read this post, I see myself as scum. Not excited about the role I've drawn. Having to work to go through the motions, not really enjoying the process of having to be deceitful and act. Just trying to get through another day.
Bur usually enjoys the game of mafia. That's why he's stuck around as long as he has, and been our mafia secretary. He likes being town. He likes the game. Not always the most prolific, but it's not like him to burn out so quickly.
Between that and the votes, I don't think this slot is that hard to figure out behaviorally, and while I don't know what info it is that the rest of you have received, I'm very concerned that some piece of mod-bastardry based around the flavor of the Skill is going to be taken uncritically at face value, and a top lynch candidate, a blatant one, really, sails into the endgame based upon uncritical trust of the role mechanics.
She flew toward the city. The closer she came, the more obvious became its death. The road was not only completely devoid of the lively traffic it had once sustained; at one point, a landslide had sheared the road away entirely. The memory stone still recalled blackly that it had been told to be a road. She could sense the trapped memories of the merchants and soldiers and nomadic traders who had once traversed it still humming in the stone. Grass and moss had not overcome it. The road still shone, black, straight and level as it made its businesslike way to the city. The road still recalled itself as a highway, but no one else in the world did.
Az (6): Highroller, Sloth, Cuth, Tubba, Wisp, Bur
Tubba (4): Cuth, BoomFrog, Wisp, Bur
Wisp (2): Highroller, Sloth
Bur (2): Az, Anak
Cuth (2): Tubba, Az
Vaimes (1): BoomFrog
BoomFrog (1): Vaimes
Sloth (1): Vaimes
Highroller (1): Anak
Not Voting (4): Cantrip, Bessie, KJ, Tammy
With 14 alive majority is 8.
Azrael: I am a mafia Amadeus! I am the town's only hope at winning this game because I am the greatest at analysis and am so incredible I can solve this entire game by myself with my mind powers!
Also Azrael: I don't know who people voted for or even who they are.
As I said before, once we get to T-2 days until end of day, which is roughly 20 hours from now, I would recommend whoever has left to vote Azrael to go ahead. The double lynch possibility would have helped enormously, but it was always a reach, and at this point it's clearly not going to happen. We definitely should not risk no lynch happening again.
Bur has been pretty much prod-dodging me in our QT, but he's doing it so blatantly I want to say he isn't mafia. That's all I've gotten from him, nothing about his role has been confirmed to me.
Azrael: I am a mafia Amadeus! I am the town's only hope at winning this game because I am the greatest at analysis and am so incredible I can solve this entire game by myself with my mind powers!
Also Azrael: I don't know who people voted for or even who they are.
As I said before, once we get to T-2 days until end of day, which is roughly 20 hours from now, I would recommend whoever has left to vote Azrael to go ahead. The double lynch possibility would have helped enormously, but it was always a reach, and at this point it's clearly not going to happen. We definitely should not risk no lynch happening again.
Nah.
I wasn't even the best player to sign up for this particular game. But I can accurately game-solve given the right tools, the right opponents, and the right teammates. So can a lot of other people who have put in enough time learning and practicing, just like any other skill. The right set of scum could have been a major problem for me, but most of you scum, it seems like your hearts weren't really in it this time. The ones who like being mafia and take pride in it - like Bessie - those are the ones you have to watch out for. The ones that make an art form out of it.
But feel free to continue to resort to the repeated ad hom. The more single-mindedly you try to undermine what I've written, the more it just underlines how important it is for you that the town ignore those reads. You're going a little overboard with that.
Vaimes, I took a cue from another of my past articles, the Pinocchio problem, and spread some disinformation in the hopes of drawing a scum NK (remote chance of that, as I told Anak) while telling Anak the truth RE: my claim, that I was "bullet-proof-ish". If I'm target of an ability that would make me lose equal to or more than X vitality, Y happens instead, where Y is me not losing as much vitality as they thought I would. The flavor explanation, dove-tailing nicely with the flavor of the books, is that I'm very hard to kill. Which Fitz certainly was.
I also stated the claim is provable, which is at least half true, since if you have LW or any other killing role blast at me, I'll survive quite a few shots of that. I could claim the precise amounts and numbers to either Tammy or Anak as needed, but I don't see that it serves any beneficial purpose to put that out there publicly.
This is also why I stated, after Silver gave me a vit, that I don't need any additional vit atm. I have quite enough that the mafia would have a most frustrating time trying to pick me off. Ironically enough, the only out the mafia really have for dealing with me, is exactly what the town is contemplating doing, instead of lynching the outed obv-scum.
This was also another reason why I was somewhat less than concerned by LW sticking around, and didn't feel a particularly urgent need to avoid claiming to be witted publicly. If he was thinking about turning on town and being sneaky, under the right circumstances, I could potentially lightning rod that away from some of our other exposed witted folks.
Also why I tried to discourage LW from going after Anak with his wit-shot, but didn't bother objecting to him going after me. It's absolutely true that Anak is so far outside the POE that there's no excuse for that, but it also would have made it a 50-50 shot between LW going after me or HR, off his publicly stated list. That would mean either he blanks his shot and confirms my ability, or he hits HR, which is just cool, ironic, and hilarious.
Like I guess this could be a mafia bulletproof but the way it works makes it sound too powerful for mafia. And I don't even really think Az is that scummy.
meh
I'll be back tomorrow afternoon. I don't think there's any need to hammer a T-48 hours.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
How likely is it that there is a protective role, Boom's role that might turn into a bodyguard, and Az's bulletproofish role?
If Az is telling the truth about his role, it's not needed for mafia unless the vit thief is town, and considering nobody even seems close to admitting that they stole vit, I'm not sure. Unless we're dealing with two scum teams, then his role could be either really.
I don't know, but I am in the midst of prepping for classes that start Monday, and I have to have all my stuff posted by tomorrow night. I'll be around this whole time and won't miss deadline, but I'll be very scattered thought wise.
Azrael - It was my understanding that Bur doesn't really post that much regardless of their alignment. Where do you get that he really likes playing mafia and so would be here. And for Bessie, you said that she takes pride in being mafia, do you have experience with Bessie?
I presumed that Silver was the source of an additional vit that I received and immediately claimed, on a different day than Cuth. I can track that claim down for you and requote if that helps.
No prior experience, just noting things like how she reacted to your wagon, and how she responded to my mischaracterization of her intentions in casing you. I guessed that she intentionally picked an unlikely target, and she was a just a little miffed I thought she made that strategic choice.
That's someone who takes pride in the decisions that they make, puts thought and effort into forming them. I read her as scum, and Boom says she's one of the very best where she comes from, so I presume that comes from a well-earned pride and confidence in her formidable abilities as scum.
You also see that underlying that complaint about how large a role meta has here on the site, that question of how much she will be expected to use it and respond to it.
That's someone who feels that they got blind-sided by a risk that they could do nothing to foresee and avoid.
And for town, misfiring a single wagon isn't that big a deal. So what, you move on to the next person, and you get it right. But for scum, if you misstep and it results in you popping into someone's radar, in a way you don't think you had a fair chance to avoid? If you go from being completely under the radar and town-read, to being included as part of someone's game-solve 4th in line?
Nah, that hits and embitters scum in a way it doesn't hit town. That's exactly the response of a scum player who cares about their performance and reputation and dislikes having been flagged for something they couldn't have predicted.
I never said you were waffling. Just that you were positioning yourself to be able to vote me, if you needed to. You haven't been inconsistent; it's just a position that I know to be anti-town that you've taken steps to arrive at. Neither pushing hard, nor weakly.
I’m not being cagey. And I’m not obliquely positioning myself to swing either way on my read of you. I voted for you on D2, and I’ve made it clear that you are on my list of people I would vote for today.
As for meta, I'd say I've reached a point where personally I try to be able to use it on everyone I can, especially newcomers, but it varies wildly in popularity amongst the rest of the playerbase. If you stick around, which I hope you will, you wouldn't be out of place of our of sync or at much of a disadvantage, I think. I can see why as scum, you'd feel a bit disappointed about Tammy turning out to be a non-starter based on meta concerns. Frankly, I was a little surprised the rest of the town was as confident in that read as they were, but I think it was mainly the combination of meta and her being just naturally townie that solidified that.
I am a player that usually leans heavily on meta myself, and playing with a large group of people that I don’t know is different for me. So I’m trying something new, which is ok and I’m not complaining about the meta. But I am saying that I should not be expected to research players and join in on all the meta discussion in this game. My reads are going to be based on content from this thread only, but with the note that I know BoomFrog from my home site so I will possibly be influenced by meta with him. I also have some experience playing with Wisp, but since Wisp has claimed non-town, I don’t need to try to figure out if he is town.
The ones who like being mafia and take pride in it - like Bessie - those are the ones you have to watch out for. The ones that make an art form out of it.
I really hate “this is how I play as town/scum” posts, and I’ve pointed out how this pings me already in this game. But I’m wondering from where you got this idea? I’m known for disliking playing as non-town.
That's someone who takes pride in the decisions that they make, puts thought and effort into forming them. I read her as scum, and Boom says she's one of the very best where she comes from, so I presume that comes from a well-earned pride and confidence in her formidable abilities as scum.
Hmmm, I don’t think BoomFrog said this in this thread.
That's someone who feels that they got blind-sided by a risk that they could do nothing to foresee and avoid.
Do teams usually have day chat on this site? Because I’m not seeing how you characterize me as a master scum player, but one does not chat with my partners.
@Bessie
yes and no? usually they start off with day chat, but for some reason its common to give the day chat passive to one of the mafia players, and once they die, it is lost
@Cuth: Sorry (argh, I hate this) if you made this clear earlier in your iso than I have time to check currently, but was your "if Boom dies I get something" only active yesterDay (for D2) and if he dies now you don't get the shiny you were hoping for?
it's also active today
the point was to force mafia's hands wrt deciding how to handle me, and also imply that it was only d2 a bit for the same reason
i think there were absolutely wolves in the bloc that was like "no let's just let sloth shoot please no need to yeet lol what is this cuth"
i'm not saying that's not a thing villagers couldn't think, but i'd say that specific reaction, as opposed to "i don't think boom is as wolfy as x" or "i just don't think this thing you're talking about is as important as the upside of yeeting both"
when i think it was pretty clear that boom had nothing going for him
but yes it's vit-based, so it's contingent on me actually having enough to activate this ability
and wisp drained one
or this would never have come up lol
vote:Sloth, vote: Tubba
vaimes, i've basically claimed my entire role between the qt and my posts at sod today
also i think all i was reading sloth v for was nai; i don't think i've seen things obviously wolfy in terms of process and engagement, but it feels slightly mechanical and i think things like him w-reading you (and, i'll be honest, most of his readslist yesterday) feel beyond just my baseline of regular sloth disagreement territory into "pushing a narrative view of the game via reads that i think makes us lose most of the time"
@azrael that's not my flavor, but i'm also not going to claim my specific flavor yet for the same reason i'm not claiming my exact ability yet
also i don't think your read is abstractly bad but i think it takes the quoted posts pretty far out of the context of my posting in this game
because if i said "i have pretty strong feelings but idk what" and then left it at that and just sort of softballed the rest of the game then it could absolutely be indicative of posturing/etc
but i'm pretty certain i followed that up by making several sets of reads that were in fact rather strongly couched
the idk what was more to do with world overlap/contingencies than "i actually don't know what to think about any of these people"
along the lines "if i get player x to a confident v read (vaimes/tammy in this case, i believe), then i can feel better about these subsequent subsets of reads"
so you quoting one of my first posts in thread that i essentially elaborated on pretty concretely not that long afterwards and then saying the lack of commitment compared to stated level of engagement means i am 100% a wolf is pretty silly
@Cuth: Sorry (argh, I hate this) if you made this clear earlier in your iso than I have time to check currently, but was your "if Boom dies I get something" only active yesterDay (for D2) and if he dies now you don't get the shiny you were hoping for?
it's also active today
the point was to force mafia's hands wrt deciding how to handle me, and also imply that it was only d2 a bit for the same reason
i think there were absolutely wolves in the bloc that was like "no let's just let sloth shoot please no need to yeet lol what is this cuth"
i'm not saying that's not a thing villagers couldn't think, but i'd say that specific reaction, as opposed to "i don't think boom is as wolfy as x" or "i just don't think this thing you're talking about is as important as the upside of yeeting both"
when i think it was pretty clear that boom had nothing going for him
but yes it's vit-based, so it's contingent on me actually having enough to activate this ability
and wisp drained one
or this would never have come up lol
vote:Sloth, vote: Tubba
vaimes, i've basically claimed my entire role between the qt and my posts at sod today
also i think all i was reading sloth v for was nai; i don't think i've seen things obviously wolfy in terms of process and engagement, but it feels slightly mechanical and i think things like him w-reading you (and, i'll be honest, most of his readslist yesterday) feel beyond just my baseline of regular sloth disagreement territory into "pushing a narrative view of the game via reads that i think makes us lose most of the time"
@azrael that's not my flavor, but i'm also not going to claim my specific flavor yet for the same reason i'm not claiming my exact ability yet
also i don't think your read is abstractly bad but i think it takes the quoted posts pretty far out of the context of my posting in this game
because if i said "i have pretty strong feelings but idk what" and then left it at that and just sort of softballed the rest of the game then it could absolutely be indicative of posturing/etc
but i'm pretty certain i followed that up by making several sets of reads that were in fact rather strongly couched
the idk what was more to do with world overlap/contingencies than "i actually don't know what to think about any of these people"
along the lines "if i get player x to a confident v read (vaimes/tammy in this case, i believe), then i can feel better about these subsequent subsets of reads"
so you quoting one of my first posts in thread that i essentially elaborated on pretty concretely not that long afterwards and then saying the lack of commitment compared to stated level of engagement means i am 100% a wolf is pretty silly
Fair enough that it doesn’t make you lockScum, but you really think you’ve put enough of your thoughts out there and backed them up? I know that you want(ed) to lynch Boom for raisins. And now you want to lunch Sloth and me, and I’m having a real hard time finding a precious post that mentions you’re thoughts on any of the three. So, it looks like you just want people to die, what I can’t understand is how limply and lazily you’ve been pursuing it.
Azrael, would you be willing to go into detail on what differences you saw in Sloth's town and scum games?
This is a yes or no question, with an accompanying explanation if you choose 'yes'. If you say anything along the lines of "I want to keep it secret," I will be an unhappy bird.
Yeahhh, I think Highroller, Bur, and Cuth are all town. So.
:Crazy eyebrow:
In THAT group???
I could skill it to you if it's that important I suppose, but reading that article I posted or looking at some of my other analyses would probably tell you almost as much. It's not much different.
What's your POE like at this point, Vaimes? Because even if you just do a POE clear on the people who can clear themselves on a good townie behavior, there's not that much room for other beyond those three.
Like, if you eliminate those three, to get four scum, you're looking at some pretty weird and unlikely teams. The only halfway reasonable slots left are Tubba, Bessie, Boom, and I don't even know who 4 would be, and all three of those have done a lot more to make me trust them than that first trio.
That's pretty much the axis of evil, in terms of being having a genuine interest in town-solving, responsible voting, interest in sharing mindset, or just about any other meaningful metric.
That's the problem. I think they're town, but I can't even begin to fathom what the scum team would have to look like in that world. This turning point is always my least favorite part of mafia.
Like I GUESS Cuth could theoretically be FoS'd as scum who shot Silver to coast on that read, but he isn't taking advantage of it. He claimed to me, and he doesn't seem remotely interested in having me fight on his behalf [even though I'm very softly doing it of my own volition] after divulging that information.
Bur flat-out doesn't give a ****. I hate it, and I'm trying to chip away at him in our chat, but I don't think his lurking is scummy.
Highroller also doesn't give a ****, but his lack of ****s hasn't deterred him from making his thoughts on other players known while pursuing Wisp. Credit where it's due.
Now I'll grant you that those are kind of negative-space reads, and don't really address the what-they're-actively-posting-in-the-main-thread evidence you're citing. And yet, somehow, it makes more sense to me that these are busy/bored/distracted villagers rather than scum who are deliberately trying to set themselves up to coast. Your case on Cuth, for example, involved putting a lot of words into his mouth, and was an over-the-top enough slam dunk that I struggle to understand why you're pushing him just now with Day 1-cited quotes.
Some combination of Bessie/Sloth/Boom/Anak. They're all vaguely villagery but not really pushing anything. Cantrip/Tubba/KJ are like, very outside maybes. It would help if they didn't just post to exist (I know people are busy and whatever but there is some onus on oneself for crossing the "help others see that I am a villager" threshold without needing to be repeatedly asked to do so). KJ probably the towniest of the three.
The fact that Azrael has gotten run up twice makes it seem like the gamestate is happy with him dying. It's been pretty quiet all Day, with the votes piling on and no one really saying Az is scum with xyz player, so it doesn't feel like Az is being bussed. Nor is anyone trying to link Az to other slots. There is the Anak/Az connection, but rather than being scum with Azrael because of his defense, he could very well be scum whiteknighting Azrael. I think Highroller is either the only one who thinks they're together, or is the most vocal about it.
Already asked Az but I'll ask again for his Sloth notes.
Like, I'm starting to think that the silence coming from the people who are middle-of-the-road townread when Azrael is being and has been pushed for the past two Days means there's scum in there trying to let town eat itself right now.
Interesting, I just realized that Anak doesn't like Sloth. Anak's progress on him looks a little distance-y, only a couple of serious mentions, lumps him together with GJ in his catchup readlist. If anyone cares to read Anak's ISO, it's pretty short.
The most damning things Anak has said about Sloth is implicating him in Rhand's death, and this line here: "But otherwise, Highroller, Sloth, Cuth, Tubba, this is not a wagon that any other town should seriously be considering."
Sloth's mentions of Anak aren't much better, has him at null, no meaningful attempt to get a better read on him. Same with Iso. Big "stick him in null and hope nobody asks me about him" energy.
Shifting reads in response to evidence is what I do, plenty of meta on that. It's inexplicable shifts that are troubling, not evidence-based ones. I have no problem admitting when I screw things up, which is essential for anyone who wants to do well in a game of mafia. You'll generally be wrong, quite a bit, in mafia. But by the point in time you've read up enough to have some kind of feel or gauge for every poster in the game, that's where bravado to generate pressure and interest starts bleeding into that peaceful, happy, contented place where you have hacked that forest to bits and you know what all the trees in it look like. And you start to feel where your best odds are going to be.
Doesn't hurt that the experience level of everyone in the game has either been commented on, or is pretty evident, or already known to me from past play. I never realized how much that meta baseline helps until I tried to analyze an invitational playerbase on a foreign website where no one shared meta info and got absolutely, epicly, unforgettably wrecked. Here though? This is home field.
No, that's just factually not correct. He's explained why he disagrees with your case at multiple points.
His position is that he disagrees with your case, and your timing. I don't know that he has THAT much confidence in the town-read on me (maybe he does, IDK), but he's publicly explained quite clearly that he just doesn't think the case is a good one.
Same reason I hated your Boomfrog vote, back in the day. Not that I was that sure of Boom being town, but that I hated the rationales being used to push for his death by you and Bur.
Chalk that up as another reason NOT to kill Boomfrom if HR/Bur Flip scum, by the way. That was a ridiculous lynch rationale.
Until he's actually asked to make a case against me, in which case it becomes transparent that he has none. He's just going after me because I'm going after you, and his trust of you has never once been given a valid reason.
I never voted BoomFrog.
I literally don't remember thinking that about Boom.
I think... Az is right about Anak. Even if I'm wrong about Az, I think Anak is town?
I'm still wary of Tubba, but I'm ok with leaving Az unyeeted today.
So, Bur/Cuth/Bessie/Tubba/Wisp is my list of peoples I wanna yeet today.
Yeah, I combo'd replying to you and HR in the same post there.
Ok, out for reals this time.
I did not read all if D1 (I replaced in on D2). So I do not know exactly what quotes you are referring to (will read though if you want to provide a link). But are you really using as an argument that Silver was town, so he must have been correct in his reads??
I posted some pings I had from Cuthalion in my posts #1524 , #2350 , and #2507 .
I’m not Chad, I’m WakeMeUp. BoomFrog is Chad.
What a surprise that you should come to this conclusion. [/sarcasm]
1. I didn’t pick a target. I gave my reads as I saw them, having zero meta knowledge on almost everyone in this game. I’ve explained several times that I wasn’t aware that Tammy is confirmed town from the minute she posts in the sign-up thread and is totally off-limits to suspicion. [/sarcasm]
2. I’m not waffling on you at all. Refer to my previous post #2558 .
My final D2 post:
3. Ok. Be honest. How much of the content in this game is strongly meta influenced, and how am I supposed to comment on stuff like “Player X always does that when they’re town” or “I’ve never seen Player Y do that as a wolf”??????
Few things.
I never said you were waffling. Just that you were positioning yourself to be able to vote me, if you needed to. You haven't been inconsistent; it's just a position that I know to be anti-town that you've taken steps to arrive at. Neither pushing hard, nor weakly.
There's nothing very egregious about it, it's measured, smart, self-consistent. It gives you options. It could be meh town play, or it could be very impressive scum play. My money is on you being impressive.
I like that play from you as scum. Very solid and devious, and you were very much the hardest to spot, by a mile.
As for meta, I'd say I've reached a point where personally I try to be able to use it on everyone I can, especially newcomers, but it varies wildly in popularity amongst the rest of the playerbase. If you stick around, which I hope you will, you wouldn't be out of place of our of sync or at much of a disadvantage, I think. I can see why as scum, you'd feel a bit disappointed about Tammy turning out to be a non-starter based on meta concerns. Frankly, I was a little surprised the rest of the town was as confident in that read as they were, but I think it was mainly the combination of meta and her being just naturally townie that solidified that.
@Tubba: I'm still re-forming reads, so it's not so much that I think he's town as that I thought Silver's point was a good one.
@Wisp: Explain why if Cuth is a wolf, then Boom is also a wolf? I iso'd Cuth to see what his claim was. Knowing now that he (claims he) chose Boomfrog and then pushed for his yeet, why do you think Boom is a wolf if Chad is a wolf? If he chose Boom, that removes my modgaming element, though; they could still both be town.
@Bessie: No, not saying "Silver was town, so had to be right". I meant that since Silver flipped town, we know that his analysis was sincere (and, I thought, a good point, although obviously not as good as I initially thought).
@Vaimes: Sorry if I missed it/if it's in a post I haven't read yet, but can you confirm that Cuth has claimed in more detail to you in private?
@Cuth: Sorry (argh, I hate this) if you made this clear earlier in your iso than I have time to check currently, but was your "if Boom dies I get something" only active yesterDay (for D2) and if he dies now you don't get the shiny you were hoping for?
While skimming some iso's I also saw Boom's claim, HR's claim, and Boom's suggestion we all skill Tammy. I don't yet know where that discussion ended up (I'm guessing it didn't happen), but the benefits I could see would be a) locking players into a vanilla/non-vanilla claim status, and b) allowing Tammy to look for dichotomies (multiple docs, multiple cops, etc).
They're decisive to understanding these two slots. For Cuth, in particular.
Analysis:
Nah, actually, I'm going to break in here at this first one.
I'm not picking on Cuth for that last sentence, that's NAI. But this is the kind of statement that is EXTREMELY revealing as to his overall mindset.
He's "sitting back". He's occasionally stiring. These are things you say to set expectations low.
And then, that second sentence. Wow! That second sentence. He feels "fairly strongly" about certain players, but he's not yet certain what he thinks!!
Ladies and gentleman. No more perfect scum confession was ever placed into a mafia thread.
Let's break this down.
Ok, so you're scum. You know you're supposed to have opinions of things, right? That's what townies do? And those opinions are strong? So we'd better tell everyone that we have those things. Strong feelings. Yes, very strong.
Are we going to explain anything about what those strong feelings are, share with our fellow players...Nope.
We're going to throw out a cryptic remark, and mention that later on we'll decide what to think about those people. Love that! Which is just the PERFECT description of how scum go about actually thinking and reading the thread. "Hmmm, that was a notable happening. I'd better have a stance on that of some kind, but darn it, I have no idea what it should be yet, that requires actual thought, and if I wait a bit longer I can see which way the wind is blowing and avoid making any missteps! Fantastic, let's just finish up the post with a cavalier, disarming humorous remark to distract from the fact that I'm not actually participating or giving any reads, and go merrily on my way!"
If I could still edit my old mafia tells article, this would be going STRAIGHT into my examples of scum posting list. Don't even need to see his flip.
Always reserve a kernel of doubt on my cases, but I feel like there's so much you can gather from a post like this, given the context and circumstances and how it fits into the rest of the thread.
Bear in mind. This post is made on page 7, just a few days into the start of the game. No one else is having serious fatigue yet, really, even most of our other time-strapped lurkers. The game is still young, still exciting.
But not for Bur. For Bur, this game is already a chore. The analysis feels like work. He's skimming. Trying not to drop too far behind - although the thread really isn't moving all that fast.
He feels the need to reiterate this excuse multiple times, that he doesn't have time. Once, I'd get. Three times? That's more of a nervous tic. There's not having time, and then there's not FEELING like you have a time.
When I read this post, I see myself as scum. Not excited about the role I've drawn. Having to work to go through the motions, not really enjoying the process of having to be deceitful and act. Just trying to get through another day.
Bur usually enjoys the game of mafia. That's why he's stuck around as long as he has, and been our mafia secretary. He likes being town. He likes the game. Not always the most prolific, but it's not like him to burn out so quickly.
Between that and the votes, I don't think this slot is that hard to figure out behaviorally, and while I don't know what info it is that the rest of you have received, I'm very concerned that some piece of mod-bastardry based around the flavor of the Skill is going to be taken uncritically at face value, and a top lynch candidate, a blatant one, really, sails into the endgame based upon uncritical trust of the role mechanics.
She flew toward the city. The closer she came, the more obvious became its death. The road was not only completely devoid of the lively traffic it had once sustained; at one point, a landslide had sheared the road away entirely. The memory stone still recalled blackly that it had been told to be a road. She could sense the trapped memories of the merchants and soldiers and nomadic traders who had once traversed it still humming in the stone. Grass and moss had not overcome it. The road still shone, black, straight and level as it made its businesslike way to the city. The road still recalled itself as a highway, but no one else in the world did.
Az (6): Highroller, Sloth, Cuth, Tubba, Wisp, Bur
Tubba (4): Cuth, BoomFrog, Wisp, Bur
Wisp (2): Highroller, Sloth
Bur (2): Az, Anak
Cuth (2): Tubba, Az
Vaimes (1): BoomFrog
BoomFrog (1): Vaimes
Sloth (1): Vaimes
Highroller (1): Anak
Not Voting (4): Cantrip, Bessie, KJ, Tammy
With 14 alive majority is 8.
Deadline for Day 3 ending is 0900 AEDT on the 12th. This is 5:00 pm EST on the 11th.
Also Azrael: I don't know who people voted for or even who they are.
As I said before, once we get to T-2 days until end of day, which is roughly 20 hours from now, I would recommend whoever has left to vote Azrael to go ahead. The double lynch possibility would have helped enormously, but it was always a reach, and at this point it's clearly not going to happen. We definitely should not risk no lynch happening again.
BIG SHRUG.
Nah.
I wasn't even the best player to sign up for this particular game. But I can accurately game-solve given the right tools, the right opponents, and the right teammates. So can a lot of other people who have put in enough time learning and practicing, just like any other skill. The right set of scum could have been a major problem for me, but most of you scum, it seems like your hearts weren't really in it this time. The ones who like being mafia and take pride in it - like Bessie - those are the ones you have to watch out for. The ones that make an art form out of it.
But feel free to continue to resort to the repeated ad hom. The more single-mindedly you try to undermine what I've written, the more it just underlines how important it is for you that the town ignore those reads. You're going a little overboard with that.
Vaimes, I took a cue from another of my past articles, the Pinocchio problem, and spread some disinformation in the hopes of drawing a scum NK (remote chance of that, as I told Anak) while telling Anak the truth RE: my claim, that I was "bullet-proof-ish". If I'm target of an ability that would make me lose equal to or more than X vitality, Y happens instead, where Y is me not losing as much vitality as they thought I would. The flavor explanation, dove-tailing nicely with the flavor of the books, is that I'm very hard to kill. Which Fitz certainly was.
I also stated the claim is provable, which is at least half true, since if you have LW or any other killing role blast at me, I'll survive quite a few shots of that. I could claim the precise amounts and numbers to either Tammy or Anak as needed, but I don't see that it serves any beneficial purpose to put that out there publicly.
This is also why I stated, after Silver gave me a vit, that I don't need any additional vit atm. I have quite enough that the mafia would have a most frustrating time trying to pick me off. Ironically enough, the only out the mafia really have for dealing with me, is exactly what the town is contemplating doing, instead of lynching the outed obv-scum.
I might just kill the people who flat-out aren't playing and see how fast that makes us lose.
And there's enough lurking going on that I dunno if we'll have the votes for anyone but Az or Tubba.
ick ick ick
meh
I'll be back tomorrow afternoon. I don't think there's any need to hammer a T-48 hours.
HR/Bur/Cuth.
We DO have the votes and numbers to get there. They just need to start getting placed. It's time.
How likely is it that there is a protective role, Boom's role that might turn into a bodyguard, and Az's bulletproofish role?
If Az is telling the truth about his role, it's not needed for mafia unless the vit thief is town, and considering nobody even seems close to admitting that they stole vit, I'm not sure. Unless we're dealing with two scum teams, then his role could be either really.
I don't know, but I am in the midst of prepping for classes that start Monday, and I have to have all my stuff posted by tomorrow night. I'll be around this whole time and won't miss deadline, but I'll be very scattered thought wise.
Azrael - It was my understanding that Bur doesn't really post that much regardless of their alignment. Where do you get that he really likes playing mafia and so would be here. And for Bessie, you said that she takes pride in being mafia, do you have experience with Bessie?
That's someone who takes pride in the decisions that they make, puts thought and effort into forming them. I read her as scum, and Boom says she's one of the very best where she comes from, so I presume that comes from a well-earned pride and confidence in her formidable abilities as scum.
That's someone who feels that they got blind-sided by a risk that they could do nothing to foresee and avoid.
And for town, misfiring a single wagon isn't that big a deal. So what, you move on to the next person, and you get it right. But for scum, if you misstep and it results in you popping into someone's radar, in a way you don't think you had a fair chance to avoid? If you go from being completely under the radar and town-read, to being included as part of someone's game-solve 4th in line?
Nah, that hits and embitters scum in a way it doesn't hit town. That's exactly the response of a scum player who cares about their performance and reputation and dislikes having been flagged for something they couldn't have predicted.
I am a player that usually leans heavily on meta myself, and playing with a large group of people that I don’t know is different for me. So I’m trying something new, which is ok and I’m not complaining about the meta. But I am saying that I should not be expected to research players and join in on all the meta discussion in this game. My reads are going to be based on content from this thread only, but with the note that I know BoomFrog from my home site so I will possibly be influenced by meta with him. I also have some experience playing with Wisp, but since Wisp has claimed non-town, I don’t need to try to figure out if he is town.
I really hate “this is how I play as town/scum” posts, and I’ve pointed out how this pings me already in this game. But I’m wondering from where you got this idea? I’m known for disliking playing as non-town.
Hmmm, I don’t think BoomFrog said this in this thread.
Do teams usually have day chat on this site? Because I’m not seeing how you characterize me as a master scum player, but one does not chat with my partners.
yes and no? usually they start off with day chat, but for some reason its common to give the day chat passive to one of the mafia players, and once they die, it is lost
it's also active today
the point was to force mafia's hands wrt deciding how to handle me, and also imply that it was only d2 a bit for the same reason
i think there were absolutely wolves in the bloc that was like "no let's just let sloth shoot please no need to yeet lol what is this cuth"
i'm not saying that's not a thing villagers couldn't think, but i'd say that specific reaction, as opposed to "i don't think boom is as wolfy as x" or "i just don't think this thing you're talking about is as important as the upside of yeeting both"
when i think it was pretty clear that boom had nothing going for him
but yes it's vit-based, so it's contingent on me actually having enough to activate this ability
and wisp drained one
or this would never have come up lol
vote:Sloth, vote: Tubba
vaimes, i've basically claimed my entire role between the qt and my posts at sod today
also i think all i was reading sloth v for was nai; i don't think i've seen things obviously wolfy in terms of process and engagement, but it feels slightly mechanical and i think things like him w-reading you (and, i'll be honest, most of his readslist yesterday) feel beyond just my baseline of regular sloth disagreement territory into "pushing a narrative view of the game via reads that i think makes us lose most of the time"
@azrael that's not my flavor, but i'm also not going to claim my specific flavor yet for the same reason i'm not claiming my exact ability yet
also i don't think your read is abstractly bad but i think it takes the quoted posts pretty far out of the context of my posting in this game
because if i said "i have pretty strong feelings but idk what" and then left it at that and just sort of softballed the rest of the game then it could absolutely be indicative of posturing/etc
but i'm pretty certain i followed that up by making several sets of reads that were in fact rather strongly couched
the idk what was more to do with world overlap/contingencies than "i actually don't know what to think about any of these people"
along the lines "if i get player x to a confident v read (vaimes/tammy in this case, i believe), then i can feel better about these subsequent subsets of reads"
so you quoting one of my first posts in thread that i essentially elaborated on pretty concretely not that long afterwards and then saying the lack of commitment compared to stated level of engagement means i am 100% a wolf is pretty silly
Fair enough that it doesn’t make you lockScum, but you really think you’ve put enough of your thoughts out there and backed them up? I know that you want(ed) to lynch Boom for raisins. And now you want to lunch Sloth and me, and I’m having a real hard time finding a precious post that mentions you’re thoughts on any of the three. So, it looks like you just want people to die, what I can’t understand is how limply and lazily you’ve been pursuing it.
This is a yes or no question, with an accompanying explanation if you choose 'yes'. If you say anything along the lines of "I want to keep it secret," I will be an unhappy bird.
I don't really feel like Az is scum but I feel like his flip is a linchpin somehow.
:Crazy eyebrow:
In THAT group???
I could skill it to you if it's that important I suppose, but reading that article I posted or looking at some of my other analyses would probably tell you almost as much. It's not much different.
Like, if you eliminate those three, to get four scum, you're looking at some pretty weird and unlikely teams. The only halfway reasonable slots left are Tubba, Bessie, Boom, and I don't even know who 4 would be, and all three of those have done a lot more to make me trust them than that first trio.
That's pretty much the axis of evil, in terms of being having a genuine interest in town-solving, responsible voting, interest in sharing mindset, or just about any other meaningful metric.
Like I GUESS Cuth could theoretically be FoS'd as scum who shot Silver to coast on that read, but he isn't taking advantage of it. He claimed to me, and he doesn't seem remotely interested in having me fight on his behalf [even though I'm very softly doing it of my own volition] after divulging that information.
Bur flat-out doesn't give a ****. I hate it, and I'm trying to chip away at him in our chat, but I don't think his lurking is scummy.
Highroller also doesn't give a ****, but his lack of ****s hasn't deterred him from making his thoughts on other players known while pursuing Wisp. Credit where it's due.
Now I'll grant you that those are kind of negative-space reads, and don't really address the what-they're-actively-posting-in-the-main-thread evidence you're citing. And yet, somehow, it makes more sense to me that these are busy/bored/distracted villagers rather than scum who are deliberately trying to set themselves up to coast. Your case on Cuth, for example, involved putting a lot of words into his mouth, and was an over-the-top enough slam dunk that I struggle to understand why you're pushing him just now with Day 1-cited quotes.
lets say that Cuth/Bur/Highroller and for funsies, Azreal,
what does this mafia team look like?
I'm having a hard time figuring it out too
The fact that Azrael has gotten run up twice makes it seem like the gamestate is happy with him dying. It's been pretty quiet all Day, with the votes piling on and no one really saying Az is scum with xyz player, so it doesn't feel like Az is being bussed. Nor is anyone trying to link Az to other slots. There is the Anak/Az connection, but rather than being scum with Azrael because of his defense, he could very well be scum whiteknighting Azrael. I think Highroller is either the only one who thinks they're together, or is the most vocal about it.
Already asked Az but I'll ask again for his Sloth notes.
The most damning things Anak has said about Sloth is implicating him in Rhand's death, and this line here: "But otherwise, Highroller, Sloth, Cuth, Tubba, this is not a wagon that any other town should seriously be considering."
sorry I need to let the paranoia air itself out
yolo lmao