@Highroller
probably play a little better so you can find mafia, and then we won't have to worry
IDK wit seems to spread, so I am not at all worried about my wincon on day 2
especially given that I am already 1/3
Idk why you gotta talk with all these, "Holier than though" mannerisms, and these "I am heavily implying you are all playing poorly, while keeping it as tame as possible" comments
RIP
the probably not partners thought is ok to be fair
I don't mind that take on it. What I minded was the same thing you lol'd at: I was tightening my point, and she threw Frog an out, and Frog was just like yes please!
Still want an answer to my last set though. That part was not a misunderstanding.
I like that Bur was willing to spend vitality to communicate with Tammy overNight. @Tammy: It sounds like he asked about non-game related elements; was he active and asking about the game, too?
I feel that a double-vote is more likely to be on town than scum, but it's not an auto-pass for GJ.
@GJ: Where's the breadcrumb?
@Wisp: Am I right in remembering that if you give someone a charm toDay, then toNight you only have to spend 1V to trigger both charms (if you choose to)? Also, in 1179, what KJ reaction are you referring to, exactly?
also for the sake of clarity
which I did not previously know, blame wording
anyone that is targeted by the wit chat, also becomes witted
I feel like this would be the kind of thing that would be explicit in the Wit ability (CC's ability reads "The Wit: 1-Shot Anytime Action - You bond with another player and are able to each send one 30-word message per phase to each other."). This is information you know from your role PM?
@Tubba: Unpack your apology to Grape in 1188 for me?
I'm going to need to analyze the CropCircles bandwagon a lot more, and I encourage everyone else to do so as well. The case against CropCircles prior to him deciding to take a dive was nonexistent.
ohh no it was there, that Rhand read was completely fabricated, CC was not reading the game to the best of their ability, and not adequately using their vote to the advantage of town
Azreal somehow saw a glimpse of town in CC's terrible iso, which going on a limb makes very little sense
like maybe he believes it, its hard to say, but the way he jumped back after the whole self-vote feels oddly townie
personally I hated him bringing up OOG to defend his change of playstyle, but he went through the trouble, of posting all the post numbers for why GJ is a baddie in his opinion, even if he didn't instantiate them, which feels better than him not explaining them at all
Were you talking about this post or something else?
Well, they were natural thought processes. Just not natural *town" thought processes.
Don't suppose we can leave CC around a few days since I haven't played with him in like a decade? No? *Sigh*. Remind me not to give reads without actually PBPAing people.
We should likely do an FOS count for who we are requiring wisp to target.
Town:
Tammy - Very pure thinking Cantrip - Trying to sort
Vaimes - D2 frustration is real
Silvercrys3467 - Mirrored my thoughts about the TMI on CC. Bur - Pretty pure thoughts
Wisp (3rder, but I don't think he's mafia)
Scummy:
Gentleman Johnny - Not sincerely trying to sort. Tubba Fett - Aggressivly looking for easy yeets. Focusing on wisp to avoid scum hunting.
Highroller - focusing on wisp to avoid scumhunting
Unsorted (not in order):
Iso
xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
Killjoy
Cuthalion
Azrael Slothful
The bolded reads don't feel natural/real. Sloth has posted enough content that it feels off to have him in an unsorted pile. Bur's been super content-lite, no matter how "pure" some of his posts may have sounded.
@Boomfrog: Show me where Tubba was focusing on Wisp to avoid scumhunting?
And the read on me, while I could buy it in the heat of the moment D1, is suuuuper stale, especially since I hadn't posted since D2 began.
Meh, I'm running out of time. More when I can. In the meantime, feel free to respond to any of the above questions.
I don't feel you were serious about wanting Wisp dead, is the thing, which is kind of a requirement for bussing?
And the way you pivoted onto me, accusing me of coasting while I'm in the middle of a string of relatively serious game-related posts is kind of eyebrow raising; if your problem really was that I was coasting you might've waited a bit longer to see if I went anywhere with my lines of inquiry
Felt like you just used it as an excuse to vote me and not like you actually care about it
Well I only have 1 vote today, so I got to start somewhere.
LW's already voting me, and basically slapping me down without really going elsewhere apart from maybe Rhand. Maybe you could I could argue I am treating him with kid gloves, but what makes you think Wisp is treating me with them?
@Cantrip
I can't really say much, it was explicit in my role pm either
I can prove it by hitting highroller for 3 though
and it would cost 1v to take the charms from everyone that has one tonight, but currently, it's still only cuth that has a charm
and it was that post, but upon reading it again, I do not really care for it
#1178
was towards his comment pretty much shading Azreal for calling CC natural, after he presumed CC was scum claiming
@Cantrip
I can't really say much, it was explicit in my role pm either
I can prove it by hitting highroller for 3 though
and it would cost 1v to take the charms from everyone that has one tonight, but currently, it's still only cuth that has a charm
and it was that post, but upon reading it again, I do not really care for it
#1178
was towards his comment pretty much shading Azreal for calling CC natural, after he presumed CC was scum claiming
@GJ: a) I'm not done with my deeper reread, so that's not necessarily all I have for you, and b) I saw your response and figured I'd respond to it when I got back to that point. But since you groused nicely:
Yes, I know I wasn't posting, which after 50+ hours and several hundred posts since Day start I would have expected that to be noticed at least on some level. I seriously considered waiting until I got prodded to see if I made it that long without anyone saying anything, but I felt like that was mildly detrimental to the game. Only other player who was in the same situation, afaict, was WMU, who requested replacement. And sorry for my negative tone; I'm just feeling a little frustrated because my last game (on Mafia Colosseum) was essentially town tearing town apart while the scum (me included) sat back with popcorn, so I'm a bit concerned that the same thing is happening here. (I was also rather miffed at myself for forgetting that this game was a thing.)
I'm holding off on my read on Frog until he responds to my last post (and possibly other things in the rest of my catch up).
Right now the "wolfiest" players are, mostly, the ones that either aren't posting much (WMU-slot, Boom, maybe Cuth) and those that I expect more from (Az, Iso). I don't like feeling that way, even if it aligns with my concerns that the scum are lying low, because I feel like I'm arriving at that conclusion by default rather than for Reasons. Towniest player, by far, is Tammy.
I'm doing all I can at the moment to disrupt wolves: catch up and ask questions.
Wait....so you're saying someone witted used the ability on YOU, and now you have the ability??
It feels...weird that someone would out themselves to you like that, but not impossible, I guess?
Lol...if you've killed two others with Wit and you're on your own yeetwagon when you get yeeted, do you win?
wait what
no I am saying that people that have the witted ability used on them, expiclity gain the wit, as for if it actually gives them the ability, that is a question that I have no bothered asking yet, highroller might be able to answer that though
I am assuming I could be witted, but killing myself would probably take priority over my own wincon lol?
Yeah, the Wit thing is confusing. I needed to clarify this with Grapefruit.
There's two things:
1. The Wit Ability
2. The quality of being Witted
The Wit Ability is found in certain people in this game. LastWhisper claims it's 5 people, who even knows. The point is, the Wit ability allows people to form permanent communication abilities with someone. The trade-off seems to be that, while these abilities last longer than The Skill, they're more limited. With CropCircles we were limited to one 30-word message per phase.
The quality of being Witted is present in everyone who has the Wit ability, and also everyone targeted by the Wit ability. So I am considered Witted by virtue of being targeted by the Wit ability, but I do not myself have the ability.
This is one of the reasons why the whole idea of the town having any sort of control over LastWhisper is so laughable. Not only is the threat of lynch nonexistent - we've had players openly state that they're totally fine with the serial killer winning and will not lift a finger to actually stop it, so we all know that's the world's most empty threat - but also because LastWhisper says he only needs to kill 3 people to win and he's already killed 1, so all he needs is for us to lynch the other witted person. Then he can just go AWOL and daykill someone Witted and win the game, and since he already knows I'm witted, that's not going to be at all difficult for him to do.
To which, *shrug* I hope he's mafia, because I don't know of a way to prevent this.
The one contingency I guess we do have is if the Witted people refrain from using their abilities, and the vig nightkills me in the event of a person who is Witted being lynched. Then we could at least buy ourselves some time, hopefully. The problem is, once again, people would have to actually be willing to lynch LastWhisper the following day, and I don't believe that's ever going to happen.
So, that's what I've got, guys. I'm really trying to win us the game here.
Like, this is modgaming 100% but I don't really see another option here
This game should not have passed review with a third party in it that could end the game at the end of day 2 by killing people with a quality that could be on over half the game by the end of day 1
Have you considered we're not anywhere close to any of these things happening yet? Have you considered that having two lynches per phase is a game-breaking threat to the mafia?
See, the whole point of the "plan" is that we have two lynches, right? Except that's not how Wisp's claimed ability works.
Wisp claimed that he could steal 3 vit from someone witted and 1 vit from someone who isn't. So if he uses it on someone who isn't witted, it only does 1 damage, which probably isn't going to kill them. It only kills them if they're witted, assuming if they don't have an absurd amount of health like Wisp does, which, admittedly, I don't know what the average vitality of a town role is, but it's not 7.
Hell, my starting vitality was 4. So this "free lynch" wouldn't even have worked against me despite my being Witted had someone not pinged me at night for 1.
So this thing only works if the person has Wit or not, and we don't know if any of the people with the Wit ability are mafia. We know at least one wasn't. I think we can probably guess the majority aren't. Further, even if we had one person with the Wit ability who is mafia, the people with Wit can spread the quality of being Witted to others, right? Well, the mafia aren't going to use their communication ability on other mafia, so they're going to use it on the town.
The point is, all of this game-throwing is in the service of a gambit for an extra day kill that won't even work in theory except against a select group of people who are almost certainly entirely town except for maybe, MAYBE one mafia, and in practice even then it probably still wouldn't work.
So we're letting the serial killer win for no real utility to the town at all.
Which, I guess there are some towns who are totally ok with the serial killer winning even without any pretense of this benefiting the town in any way, so I guess this scans? But I'm still intent on actually playing the game as opposed to game-throwing.
Like, this is modgaming 100% but I don't really see another option here
This game should not have passed review with a third party in it that could end the game at the end of day 2 by killing people with a quality that could be on over half the game by the end of day 1
Cantripmancer likes this post.
@Wisp: Sorry, I thought you were saying YOU knew that people who Wit was used on suddenly gained the Wit ability.
@HR: If Wisp charms anyone we don't tell him to charm, we yeet him. I'm not advocating he charm you, and I don't think many are, so...if he charms you, we'd yeet him before he could drain you. (Yes, I'm assuming he's telling the truth about how his ability works, based in part off of Cuth backing him up.)
This game should not have passed review with a third party in it that could end the game at the end of day 2 by killing people with a quality that could be on over half the game by the end of day 1
I don't think the review necessarily took into account that claiming a serial killer = the town falling all over themselves to make sure the serial killer wins the game. You can't plan for the town game-throwing. There is no game setup that will be fair to a town that does not actually want to kill people it needs to kill to win.
Besides, are you going to claim to me that no unbalanced game has ever passed the review on this site?
@HR: If Wisp charms anyone we don't tell him to charm, we yeet him. I'm not advocating he charm you, and I don't think many are, so...if he charms you, we'd yeet him before he could drain you. (Yes, I'm assuming he's telling the truth about how his ability works, based in part off of Cuth backing him up.)
Even if that were feasible (it isn't), we've given him immunity to lynching and he's already presumably immune to nightkills based on his sheer amount of Vitality. He just needs to ensure he's on every major bandwagon and his victory is inevitable. The only question is how long it's going to take, but again, we've guaranteed he's going to survive until the end of the game, what does he care how long it takes when it's an inevitability?
The only way to prevent him from winning is to lynch him today. This is assuming anyone is actually interested in preventing the serial killer from winning, which for some reason many are not. I don't get why. It's not even, "We'll get around to it at some point," it's, "We should just let him win."
Are we assuming the mafia KP takes vitality and doesn't just outright kill?
cause I am pretty sure I already confirmed that wasn't a thing with Grape, it was actually one of the first things I asked him I believe
now if other things take vitality, it's possible to get me down, technically I am already behind since I didn't take any health from Cuth
Someone also clearly doesn't like you, since they took one 1 Vit from you, which is technically pretty detrimental based on how so far, all abilities we've seen including mine cost vit, instead of being locked behind x-shots
I may kill people, but since my win-con removes me from the game, I don't consider myself a serial killer since their win-con is just outright winning by making parity with town, and removing all mafia from the game
also can u stop accusing people of gamethrowing? we can debate that after the game ends
Many people here do not share your shame ideology on 3p regardless of how many wasted minutes spending trying to convince them
which I guess is also a good post game discussion
I don't particularly think killing me actually helps you find mafia, I guess u can pretend that people siding with keeping me alive makes them evil, but we all know that's more of a context-based thought than just naturally black or white
Actually a better assumption @Silvercry
I believe u were the one who said that thing about Highroller
Given how everyone's abilities are tied to vit, it probably is more like likely that ability came from wolves
Particularly because I don't think many people have expressed hating Highroller, to warrant a town possibly hitting their
He's been very agendaless imo. Especially using Skill on Tammy just to be nice even though he got nothing out of it. He's just faffing around, which mafia wouldn't do.
he is certainly not showing any agenda, but is also certainly not showing any interest in moving the game forward, and there have been some comments that tonally did not feel right given their response. It can be somewhat hard to differentiate pureness and just not really caring about the direction the game is going.
Quote from Boomfrog »
Tubba Fett - Aggressivly looking for easy yeets. Focusing on wisp to avoid scum hunting.
Can you show me exactly what posts give off this feeling? ignore the latter point, I don't care about that, unless you can provide some context that actually pushes that point, else its really just NAI
Quote from Vaimes »
Vaimes - D2 frustration is real
this one as well, I would like you to show me the posts that make you feel this way
Your reads in #1228 just feel so shallow, that's a more recent problem I have with you
also you agreeing with Tammy who stated you vs GJ is just a misunderstanding, just doesn't make sense at all with your prior posts, and even the current lean you have on them, and that is my second problem with you
my third problem, was how fast you jumped on GJ for one thing, before taking the time to get the whole picture. I think this kind of playstyle is more likely to come from a wolf, and coupled with my other two points, you definitely are not looking good.
Honestly, I disliked even Chad's wall, and his vote, which obviously you can't say anything about. I think the towniest thing about your slot was the very few anime pictures you posted at the start of the game lol
Quote from Boomfrog »
I'm not saying you are town, I'm saying I believe you are actually town-siding. I doubt you are mafia pretending to be 3rder and I think you are trying to solve and are legit bummed to be 3rder. Obviously if we get near endgame with you still here there will be hard choices, hopefully we can avoid that.
ya well you put me in the town section, which is just not all correct for someone who thinks I am really likely to be true-claiming a 3rd party
#1321
Actually I lied, outside your first statement, I will say I don't hate either of the other explanations in this post.
Quote from Boomfrog »
Why should GJ read silver as town? Maybe you guys just love talking about retching, but GJ's push on silver seems sincere to me. Does "make me want to retch" mean you think GJ is scum and pushing an agenda or something else?
Someone explain me to me retching is, and are "you" calling GJ's push on silver sincere?
Yes, I know I wasn't posting, which after 50+ hours and several hundred posts since Day start I would have expected that to be noticed at least on some level. I seriously considered waiting until I got prodded to see if I made it that long without anyone saying anything, but I felt like that was mildly detrimental to the game.
Given it is the same people talking, I don't find it too strange, my question here, why should I care about your second half here, did you reallllllllllllllly think that? and why does it matter? Is it suppose to mean something?
Quote from Highroller »
To which, *shrug* I hope he's mafia, because I don't know of a way to prevent this.
I mean if we get one more witted down, I still can't target you unless people let me
You don't really need to worry about me slanking, since its not really my thing
I like that Bur was willing to spend vitality to communicate with Tammy overNight. @Tammy: It sounds like he asked about non-game related elements; was he active and asking about the game, too?
Ok so this is the same read that Boomfrog said, I think I can infer that maybe Bur doesn't have an ability he cares about, no ability at all, or he just does really want to die, but like if I had an idea what was talked about it might give me more insight into Bur's alignment rather than just the fact he used Vit to make a chat with Tammy, and announced it to the world.
(ok to be fair, it can be kinda towny, but very bad reasons)
Silver actually did that as well, and I don't really get it, but hey I am usually an open book when it comes to my role.
but ya to backtrack on my Cuth read "I don't actually think he cares about this game"
this comes after rereading the entirety of his DLP JoAT Iso
also sorry about not doing more stuff like the above, WoW expansions are more taxing than I thought
I would like to get full thoughts on Cuth, Azreal, Tubba, Bur, and Highroller at one point
anyways going to bed
Iso as a powerhouse probably gets one more chance to be wrong, and then I just assume he is maliciously pushing the wrong people. I don't actually think Bur flipping red here would make me like Iso either way
@Wisp: Yeah, I reeeaaallllllly thought that. I even considered messaging Grape and asking if he would be cool if I just continued ghosting to see how long it took before someone called me out, but figured that would put him in a bad spot.
@Highroller: How many third party roles have you actually rolled in your mafia career? I happen to light up like a Christmas tree when I see one in my inbox, but I have come to realize that I'm a freak and that most people don't actually enjoy rolling 3pr. Mostly because it's frequently difficult to achieve the wincons. So when you ask why so many people are willing to "risk" a "serial killer", I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually a bigger factor than many realize. Yes, I want to win, but if there's a 3pr that can win WITH me, I'm all for at least giving it a chance. Is there a risk? Yes. But I think the likelihood that Grape would design a 3pr that ends the game when they win is super unlikely (unless Wisp's role is seriously a legit last-man-standing-serial-killer role, in which case, he's going to be caught out a LOT sooner than when he's the last man standing). Maybe I'm wrong and yeeting Wisp is the only play that leads to a town win at this point, but I don't think it's necessary. I actually think that Wisp is likely a self-resolving situation and using up a yeet on him is suboptimal.
Note that I don't actually expect this to change your perspective or your desire to yeet Wisp, but you seem absolutely dumbfounded as to why everyone's being so laissez faire about Wisp, and I thought that perspective might help you understand, especially if you haven't rolled many/any 3rd party roles.
While I'm not actively advocating Wisp killing HR, I must admit that I wouldn't lose my sleep over it, especially if it means I don't have to read HR's wall-of-texts about Neutrals and how Wisp must be killed.
@Wisp: I'm curious why you think tone/language tells with with me, as there
I feel good about Cantrip, though there was something in his post that I wanted to respond to but forgot what it was. It took me way too long to read these new messages.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@bur
Before I try to answer that, can you rewrite the question so that it makes a little more sense grammatically?
Actually if the question is, "Why do you think tone says anything about my alignment", then the answer is:
I am specifically choosing to argue that tone makes you look a little worse here, it's definitely not a lock and stone read, and I have no particular meta read on you. So whether it means anything isn't really the right question, the correct question should have been, "Why does tone make me look so bad to you?"
@Highroller probably play a little better so you can find mafia, and then we won't have to worry
IDK wit seems to spread, so I am not at all worried about my wincon on day 2
especially given that I am already 1/3
RIP
the probably not partners thought is ok to be fair
Before emotions get high, let’s nip this sort of thing in the bud, right meow. Highroller has an opinion, the validity of which can be argued at length outside of the game. I agree with him to an extent, but you have to read the room. I don’t think that means hes playing poorly, and it’s disingenuous at best to imply that.
@Whoever wanted me to unpack my apology to Grape, this is probably another discussion best left for OoG, but essentially self-voting = game throwing which is detrimental to everyone playing and the people responsible for setting up and moderating the game. It’s reasonable to assume Grape put forth a not insubstantial amount of effort, and having it derailed by people just giving up is annoying.
Of course unbalanced games pass review, my point is that ending the game on day 2 is so completely blatantly broken that it should have been relatively obvious
I cannot speak for the review process for this game but the very first thing I do when I see unusual wincons as a reviewer is try to figure out how quickly they can win and what their win looks like to prevent awful games from happening in the first place
As far as your point about the town bending over backwards to help him... even if he hadn't claimed he still could have won toDay if Cuth was Witted and we execute someone else who is Witted
From a review perspective the actual unpredictable variables to his victory are (1) how many of the five players with the Wit ability use it on day 1, (2) how many Witted players claim and make themselves easy targets for him, and (3) how players who can grant vitality use their roles
Anyway,
The only way Azrael's plan works is if someone with The Wit spends it on making someone we want dead Witted; but we don't actually even know that a Witted wolf will die from losing 3 vit
It seems reasonable that wolves would have higher average starting vit, but there are also villagers who wouldn't have died from losing 3 vit either (since Highroller just claimed starting vit 4)
So it's not just spending the Wit shot, it's also not even a reliable kill or cop check if they survive
I think it'd be safer to just have Wisp play as an executioner because most of the bodies he creates otherwise are going to be villagers
The only way to reliably use it as a kill would be to do something really silly like make everyone claim their current vit (I do not think this is a good idea)
I'm not... real sure what Wisp is talking about here:
"Silver actually did that as well, and I don't really get it, but hey I am usually an open book when it comes to my role."
But to be clear my role doesn't expend vit and I did not use The Skill. The only reason I claimed to have used it is because knowing Cuth was affected by it gives me info based on my ability's restriction.
I'm not... real sure what Wisp is talking about here:
"Silver actually did that as well, and I don't really get it, but hey I am usually an open book when it comes to my role."
But to be clear my role doesn't expend vit and I did not use The Skill. The only reason I claimed to have used it is because knowing Cuth was affected by it gives me info based on my ability's restriction.
@Tubba
It's just a point, I know my alignment, I wish he would look at my posts instead of my claim, but it is what it is. Personally I think a lot of highroller's mannerisms come off as shade and I have no idea if that is just his personality or alignment indicative. My point still stands, but ya we can talk 3p ideologies post game. Self voting being game throwing is another talk for post game as well, I am pretty tired of seeing it being used as an excuse to vote. Personally I think me having an isolated win con is a little bit different since I'm not affecting anyone but myself.
Also that isn't disingenuous at all, that's me being as straight faced as possible.
How bout this, if we stop referring to game throwing as an argument this game, and highroller stop's shading people for as you call it, "a difference of opinion", then I will be less passive aggressive towards him
You have also done very little I don't think anyone is going to debate this statement, Cantrip has said more in his very short iso than you have, so really it shouldn't be so hard to it together some coherent thoughts that aren't a long the lines of, "I'm voting because of policy", which does not belong in the game of mafia
That's me also being pretty straight forward with my opinion, and again it's not your job to look town, but it is your job to hunt for mafia if you are in fact town
ptap, was going to post today but spontaneous things are about to take place.
Doesn't look like much of anything happened while I was gone. I'll get to any direct questions tomorrow, and then maybe make noise about getting Boomer to L-2.
vote: Tubba
I am not interested in ending the day yet
Think Cuth looks worse, but I don't think people will actually vote there
Tubba kinda just says what they want, but not particularly interested at all in the direction they choose to go with their posts
Also that isn't disingenuous at all, that's me being as straight faced as possible.
How bout this, if we stop referring to game throwing as an argument this game, and highroller stop's shading people for as you call it, "a difference of opinion", then I will be less passive aggressive towards him
You have also done very little I don't think anyone is going to debate this statement, Cantrip has said more in his very short iso than you have, so really it shouldn't be so hard to it together some coherent thoughts that aren't a long the lines of, "I'm voting because of policy", which does not belong in the game of mafia
That's me also being pretty straight forward with my opinion, and again it's not your job to look town, but it is your job to hunt for mafia if you are in fact town
@Tubba
Yeah, I’ve typed up three different responses and none of them are helpful. Kinda like outing yourself as a kill power third party for no reason, and then whining about the attention it draws.
I haven’t wanted to talk about policy lynch etc. but I’ve been asked about them. I’m not going to lead the town, I’m not confident enough in my reads for that. You’re not wrong in saying I could be more active, but my reads feel shallow.
@Azrael
Can you explain any of the scum pings that you quoted regarding Sloth and Johnny?
@Cuth
It bothers me that you are so relaxed. You didn’t care when Wisp voted you, you didn’t care when they charmed you. What up with that?
@Boom
Have you read anymore of the game? Give me your thoughts on 3 random players, excluding Tammy and Wisp.
I mean it's like thinking a 3p is fun to play
Maybe I do get too emotional, but there is still a radical difference between my play and yours
I also don't do well around people that play like Highroller, you can go as far back as the game I was modkill in fighting with Kpaca, it's not rocket science, that lowkey attacking people's intelligence is unfun to workaround, but I am the problem? Ok boomer
You don't have to be confident in your reads, you just need to talk, and ask questions lol
but thanks for the daily reminder to get Azreal to explain his thoughts, and Iso to talk about why Bur is bad
Your question to Cuth pretty much invokes my entire mindset of his playstyle right now
Onwards. I'm not especially opposed to pressuring Boom and maybe get a claim out of him instead of just waiting for last 24h, getting him to claim range and then either vote him off or CFD someone based on his claim.
(Yes, yes, I know the irony of me complaining about game not moving onwards.)
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I'm not going to meticulously quote and respond to everyone separately since Cantrip, Wisp and Tubba are basically making the same points. This should cover everything. GJ will get his own post since he's got a specific issue.
I don't believe reads get stale, but they do get "left behind" if the bar for towniness is raised when everyone is acting super townie. That hasn't happened this game yet and so I'm keeping my Cantrip read.
Bur hasn't posted a lot but the casual Skill thing stuck out to be and they were easy to remember. If someone is going to say Bur is usually a lot more active and their passivity is unusual then that changes my opinion, but I'm assuming that it's NAI for him.
@Wisp, wtf are you harping on me putting you in the town list for? Like you think I forgot you were 3rder? **** me for trying to keep my list simplified.
I don't have a read on sloth because their posts have been very forgettable. Reading his quote-less posts referring to parts of the game that I haven't read is useless for me, but I can't criticize, since that's on me, not him.
For the record I think GJ is town, his D2 has been very townie. And yes I think his push on Silver was sincere, and I find Azreal's push back on GJ to be suspect.
And on that note, no I haven't read the first part of D1 yet and I likely won't still. I wasn't signed up for any games because I'm busy IRL with more important things then mafia. I've tried to be as transparent as possible, and that's the best I'm going to be able to do with the time I've got for the game. Probably the best thing I'm going to be able to do is be a Quiter, so I'll just say now that I started with 1 Vit, so we can use Wisp to execute me and use the yeet somewhere better. Or whoever drained highroller can bump me off.
Also, @grape I'll be V/LA for the next 4 days and be back on the 23rd.
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probably play a little better so you can find mafia, and then we won't have to worry
IDK wit seems to spread, so I am not at all worried about my wincon on day 2
especially given that I am already 1/3
RIP
the probably not partners thought is ok to be fair
you do you I guess
Highroller
Name checks out.
I don't mind that take on it. What I minded was the same thing you lol'd at: I was tightening my point, and she threw Frog an out, and Frog was just like yes please!
Still want an answer to my last set though. That part was not a misunderstanding.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I like that Bur was willing to spend vitality to communicate with Tammy overNight. @Tammy: It sounds like he asked about non-game related elements; was he active and asking about the game, too?
I feel that a double-vote is more likely to be on town than scum, but it's not an auto-pass for GJ.
@GJ: Where's the breadcrumb?
@Wisp: Am I right in remembering that if you give someone a charm toDay, then toNight you only have to spend 1V to trigger both charms (if you choose to)? Also, in 1179, what KJ reaction are you referring to, exactly?
I feel like this would be the kind of thing that would be explicit in the Wit ability (CC's ability reads "The Wit: 1-Shot Anytime Action - You bond with another player and are able to each send one 30-word message per phase to each other."). This is information you know from your role PM?
@Tubba: Unpack your apology to Grape in 1188 for me?
@Last: When you said the bolded:
Were you talking about this post or something else?
@Vaimes: Why is Cuth a wet noodle?
@Silver: I thought your idea to look at the players who thought CC could still be town after his self-vote to see if there was any TMI was a good one; did you ever follow up on that? (Asking in part because I think *I* would be suspicious of *my* reaction to that if I weren't me, but you either didn't follow up on that idea or you didn't find me (or anyone else) suspicious when you looked back?)
The bolded reads don't feel natural/real. Sloth has posted enough content that it feels off to have him in an unsorted pile. Bur's been super content-lite, no matter how "pure" some of his posts may have sounded.
@Boomfrog: Show me where Tubba was focusing on Wisp to avoid scumhunting?
And the read on me, while I could buy it in the heat of the moment D1, is suuuuper stale, especially since I hadn't posted since D2 began.
Meh, I'm running out of time. More when I can. In the meantime, feel free to respond to any of the above questions.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I can't really say much, it was explicit in my role pm either
I can prove it by hitting highroller for 3 though
and it would cost 1v to take the charms from everyone that has one tonight, but currently, it's still only cuth that has a charm
and it was that post, but upon reading it again, I do not really care for it
#1178
was towards his comment pretty much shading Azreal for calling CC natural, after he presumed CC was scum claiming
EDWOP
Yes, I know I wasn't posting, which after 50+ hours and several hundred posts since Day start I would have expected that to be noticed at least on some level. I seriously considered waiting until I got prodded to see if I made it that long without anyone saying anything, but I felt like that was mildly detrimental to the game. Only other player who was in the same situation, afaict, was WMU, who requested replacement. And sorry for my negative tone; I'm just feeling a little frustrated because my last game (on Mafia Colosseum) was essentially town tearing town apart while the scum (me included) sat back with popcorn, so I'm a bit concerned that the same thing is happening here. (I was also rather miffed at myself for forgetting that this game was a thing.)
I'm holding off on my read on Frog until he responds to my last post (and possibly other things in the rest of my catch up).
Right now the "wolfiest" players are, mostly, the ones that either aren't posting much (WMU-slot, Boom, maybe Cuth) and those that I expect more from (Az, Iso). I don't like feeling that way, even if it aligns with my concerns that the scum are lying low, because I feel like I'm arriving at that conclusion by default rather than for Reasons. Towniest player, by far, is Tammy.
I'm doing all I can at the moment to disrupt wolves: catch up and ask questions.
Thanks for highlighting the breadcrumb.
I have not had a chance to go back and look yet, no, and I probably won't until this weekend since I hate combing posts on mobile
Ok.
Ok, thanks.
It feels...weird that someone would out themselves to you like that, but not impossible, I guess?
Lol...if you've killed two others with Wit and you're on your own yeetwagon when you get yeeted, do you win?
no I am saying that people that have the witted ability used on them, expiclity gain the wit, as for if it actually gives them the ability, that is a question that I have no bothered asking yet, highroller might be able to answer that though
I am assuming I could be witted, but killing myself would probably take priority over my own wincon lol?
There's two things:
1. The Wit Ability
2. The quality of being Witted
The Wit Ability is found in certain people in this game. LastWhisper claims it's 5 people, who even knows. The point is, the Wit ability allows people to form permanent communication abilities with someone. The trade-off seems to be that, while these abilities last longer than The Skill, they're more limited. With CropCircles we were limited to one 30-word message per phase.
The quality of being Witted is present in everyone who has the Wit ability, and also everyone targeted by the Wit ability. So I am considered Witted by virtue of being targeted by the Wit ability, but I do not myself have the ability.
This is one of the reasons why the whole idea of the town having any sort of control over LastWhisper is so laughable. Not only is the threat of lynch nonexistent - we've had players openly state that they're totally fine with the serial killer winning and will not lift a finger to actually stop it, so we all know that's the world's most empty threat - but also because LastWhisper says he only needs to kill 3 people to win and he's already killed 1, so all he needs is for us to lynch the other witted person. Then he can just go AWOL and daykill someone Witted and win the game, and since he already knows I'm witted, that's not going to be at all difficult for him to do.
To which, *shrug* I hope he's mafia, because I don't know of a way to prevent this.
The one contingency I guess we do have is if the Witted people refrain from using their abilities, and the vig nightkills me in the event of a person who is Witted being lynched. Then we could at least buy ourselves some time, hopefully. The problem is, once again, people would have to actually be willing to lynch LastWhisper the following day, and I don't believe that's ever going to happen.
So, that's what I've got, guys. I'm really trying to win us the game here.
This game should not have passed review with a third party in it that could end the game at the end of day 2 by killing people with a quality that could be on over half the game by the end of day 1
See, the whole point of the "plan" is that we have two lynches, right? Except that's not how Wisp's claimed ability works.
Wisp claimed that he could steal 3 vit from someone witted and 1 vit from someone who isn't. So if he uses it on someone who isn't witted, it only does 1 damage, which probably isn't going to kill them. It only kills them if they're witted, assuming if they don't have an absurd amount of health like Wisp does, which, admittedly, I don't know what the average vitality of a town role is, but it's not 7.
Hell, my starting vitality was 4. So this "free lynch" wouldn't even have worked against me despite my being Witted had someone not pinged me at night for 1.
So this thing only works if the person has Wit or not, and we don't know if any of the people with the Wit ability are mafia. We know at least one wasn't. I think we can probably guess the majority aren't. Further, even if we had one person with the Wit ability who is mafia, the people with Wit can spread the quality of being Witted to others, right? Well, the mafia aren't going to use their communication ability on other mafia, so they're going to use it on the town.
The point is, all of this game-throwing is in the service of a gambit for an extra day kill that won't even work in theory except against a select group of people who are almost certainly entirely town except for maybe, MAYBE one mafia, and in practice even then it probably still wouldn't work.
So we're letting the serial killer win for no real utility to the town at all.
Which, I guess there are some towns who are totally ok with the serial killer winning even without any pretense of this benefiting the town in any way, so I guess this scans? But I'm still intent on actually playing the game as opposed to game-throwing.
@Wisp: Sorry, I thought you were saying YOU knew that people who Wit was used on suddenly gained the Wit ability.
@HR: If Wisp charms anyone we don't tell him to charm, we yeet him. I'm not advocating he charm you, and I don't think many are, so...if he charms you, we'd yeet him before he could drain you. (Yes, I'm assuming he's telling the truth about how his ability works, based in part off of Cuth backing him up.)
Obviously this should read, "So this thing only works if the person has Wit, and we don't know if any of the people with the Wit ability are mafia."
I don't think the review necessarily took into account that claiming a serial killer = the town falling all over themselves to make sure the serial killer wins the game. You can't plan for the town game-throwing. There is no game setup that will be fair to a town that does not actually want to kill people it needs to kill to win.
Besides, are you going to claim to me that no unbalanced game has ever passed the review on this site?
Even if that were feasible (it isn't), we've given him immunity to lynching and he's already presumably immune to nightkills based on his sheer amount of Vitality. He just needs to ensure he's on every major bandwagon and his victory is inevitable. The only question is how long it's going to take, but again, we've guaranteed he's going to survive until the end of the game, what does he care how long it takes when it's an inevitability?
The only way to prevent him from winning is to lynch him today. This is assuming anyone is actually interested in preventing the serial killer from winning, which for some reason many are not. I don't get why. It's not even, "We'll get around to it at some point," it's, "We should just let him win."
cause I am pretty sure I already confirmed that wasn't a thing with Grape, it was actually one of the first things I asked him I believe
now if other things take vitality, it's possible to get me down, technically I am already behind since I didn't take any health from Cuth
Someone also clearly doesn't like you, since they took one 1 Vit from you, which is technically pretty detrimental based on how so far, all abilities we've seen including mine cost vit, instead of being locked behind x-shots
I may kill people, but since my win-con removes me from the game, I don't consider myself a serial killer since their win-con is just outright winning by making parity with town, and removing all mafia from the game
also can u stop accusing people of gamethrowing? we can debate that after the game ends
Many people here do not share your shame ideology on 3p regardless of how many wasted minutes spending trying to convince them
which I guess is also a good post game discussion
I believe u were the one who said that thing about Highroller
Given how everyone's abilities are tied to vit, it probably is more like likely that ability came from wolves
Particularly because I don't think many people have expressed hating Highroller, to warrant a town possibly hitting their
he is certainly not showing any agenda, but is also certainly not showing any interest in moving the game forward, and there have been some comments that tonally did not feel right given their response. It can be somewhat hard to differentiate pureness and just not really caring about the direction the game is going.
Can you show me exactly what posts give off this feeling? ignore the latter point, I don't care about that, unless you can provide some context that actually pushes that point, else its really just NAI
this one as well, I would like you to show me the posts that make you feel this way
Your reads in #1228 just feel so shallow, that's a more recent problem I have with you
also you agreeing with Tammy who stated you vs GJ is just a misunderstanding, just doesn't make sense at all with your prior posts, and even the current lean you have on them, and that is my second problem with you
my third problem, was how fast you jumped on GJ for one thing, before taking the time to get the whole picture. I think this kind of playstyle is more likely to come from a wolf, and coupled with my other two points, you definitely are not looking good.
Honestly, I disliked even Chad's wall, and his vote, which obviously you can't say anything about. I think the towniest thing about your slot was the very few anime pictures you posted at the start of the game lol
ya well you put me in the town section, which is just not all correct for someone who thinks I am really likely to be true-claiming a 3rd party
#1321
Actually I lied, outside your first statement, I will say I don't hate either of the other explanations in this post.
Someone explain me to me retching is, and are "you" calling GJ's push on silver sincere?
I mean if we get one more witted down, I still can't target you unless people let me
You don't really need to worry about me slanking, since its not really my thing
I agree with Cantrip here, this is a wolfy pop-in
Ok so this is the same read that Boomfrog said, I think I can infer that maybe Bur doesn't have an ability he cares about, no ability at all, or he just does really want to die, but like if I had an idea what was talked about it might give me more insight into Bur's alignment rather than just the fact he used Vit to make a chat with Tammy, and announced it to the world.
(ok to be fair, it can be kinda towny, but very bad reasons)
Silver actually did that as well, and I don't really get it, but hey I am usually an open book when it comes to my role.
but ya to backtrack on my Cuth read
"I don't actually think he cares about this game"this comes after rereading the entirety of his DLP JoAT Iso
I would like to get full thoughts on Cuth, Azreal, Tubba, Bur, and Highroller at one point
anyways going to bed
Iso as a powerhouse probably gets one more chance to be wrong, and then I just assume he is maliciously pushing the wrong people.
I don't actually think Bur flipping red here would make me like Iso either way@Highroller: How many third party roles have you actually rolled in your mafia career? I happen to light up like a Christmas tree when I see one in my inbox, but I have come to realize that I'm a freak and that most people don't actually enjoy rolling 3pr. Mostly because it's frequently difficult to achieve the wincons. So when you ask why so many people are willing to "risk" a "serial killer", I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually a bigger factor than many realize. Yes, I want to win, but if there's a 3pr that can win WITH me, I'm all for at least giving it a chance. Is there a risk? Yes. But I think the likelihood that Grape would design a 3pr that ends the game when they win is super unlikely (unless Wisp's role is seriously a legit last-man-standing-serial-killer role, in which case, he's going to be caught out a LOT sooner than when he's the last man standing). Maybe I'm wrong and yeeting Wisp is the only play that leads to a town win at this point, but I don't think it's necessary. I actually think that Wisp is likely a self-resolving situation and using up a yeet on him is suboptimal.
Note that I don't actually expect this to change your perspective or your desire to yeet Wisp, but you seem absolutely dumbfounded as to why everyone's being so laissez faire about Wisp, and I thought that perspective might help you understand, especially if you haven't rolled many/any 3rd party roles.
@Wisp: I'm curious why you think tone/language tells with with me, as there
I feel good about Cantrip, though there was something in his post that I wanted to respond to but forgot what it was. It took me way too long to read these new messages.
Before I try to answer that, can you rewrite the question so that it makes a little more sense grammatically?
Actually if the question is, "Why do you think tone says anything about my alignment", then the answer is:
I am specifically choosing to argue that tone makes you look a little worse here, it's definitely not a lock and stone read, and I have no particular meta read on you. So whether it means anything isn't really the right question, the correct question should have been, "Why does tone make me look so bad to you?"
Before emotions get high, let’s nip this sort of thing in the bud, right meow. Highroller has an opinion, the validity of which can be argued at length outside of the game. I agree with him to an extent, but you have to read the room. I don’t think that means hes playing poorly, and it’s disingenuous at best to imply that.
@Whoever wanted me to unpack my apology to Grape, this is probably another discussion best left for OoG, but essentially self-voting = game throwing which is detrimental to everyone playing and the people responsible for setting up and moderating the game. It’s reasonable to assume Grape put forth a not insubstantial amount of effort, and having it derailed by people just giving up is annoying.
Of course unbalanced games pass review, my point is that ending the game on day 2 is so completely blatantly broken that it should have been relatively obvious
I cannot speak for the review process for this game but the very first thing I do when I see unusual wincons as a reviewer is try to figure out how quickly they can win and what their win looks like to prevent awful games from happening in the first place
As far as your point about the town bending over backwards to help him... even if he hadn't claimed he still could have won toDay if Cuth was Witted and we execute someone else who is Witted
From a review perspective the actual unpredictable variables to his victory are (1) how many of the five players with the Wit ability use it on day 1, (2) how many Witted players claim and make themselves easy targets for him, and (3) how players who can grant vitality use their roles
Anyway,
The only way Azrael's plan works is if someone with The Wit spends it on making someone we want dead Witted; but we don't actually even know that a Witted wolf will die from losing 3 vit
It seems reasonable that wolves would have higher average starting vit, but there are also villagers who wouldn't have died from losing 3 vit either (since Highroller just claimed starting vit 4)
So it's not just spending the Wit shot, it's also not even a reliable kill or cop check if they survive
I think it'd be safer to just have Wisp play as an executioner because most of the bodies he creates otherwise are going to be villagers
The only way to reliably use it as a kill would be to do something really silly like make everyone claim their current vit (I do not think this is a good idea)
"Silver actually did that as well, and I don't really get it, but hey I am usually an open book when it comes to my role."
But to be clear my role doesn't expend vit and I did not use The Skill. The only reason I claimed to have used it is because knowing Cuth was affected by it gives me info based on my ability's restriction.
It's just a point, I know my alignment, I wish he would look at my posts instead of my claim, but it is what it is. Personally I think a lot of highroller's mannerisms come off as shade and I have no idea if that is just his personality or alignment indicative. My point still stands, but ya we can talk 3p ideologies post game. Self voting being game throwing is another talk for post game as well, I am pretty tired of seeing it being used as an excuse to vote. Personally I think me having an isolated win con is a little bit different since I'm not affecting anyone but myself.
How bout this, if we stop referring to game throwing as an argument this game, and highroller stop's shading people for as you call it, "a difference of opinion", then I will be less passive aggressive towards him
You have also done very little I don't think anyone is going to debate this statement, Cantrip has said more in his very short iso than you have, so really it shouldn't be so hard to it together some coherent thoughts that aren't a long the lines of, "I'm voting because of policy", which does not belong in the game of mafia
That's me also being pretty straight forward with my opinion, and again it's not your job to look town, but it is your job to hunt for mafia if you are in fact town
@Tubba
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Cuth/Tubba/But
Though I'm still pretty sure Boom is mafia
Cuth started out fine, but yeah.
I don't think Bur is a wolf though.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Doesn't look like much of anything happened while I was gone. I'll get to any direct questions tomorrow, and then maybe make noise about getting Boomer to L-2.
Unvote, vote Boomfrog
Vote Boomfrog
Well gee, feel free to speak up if you want an alternative.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I am not interested in ending the day yet
Think Cuth looks worse, but I don't think people will actually vote there
Tubba kinda just says what they want, but not particularly interested at all in the direction they choose to go with their posts
Yeah, I’ve typed up three different responses and none of them are helpful. Kinda like outing yourself as a kill power third party for no reason, and then whining about the attention it draws.
I haven’t wanted to talk about policy lynch etc. but I’ve been asked about them. I’m not going to lead the town, I’m not confident enough in my reads for that. You’re not wrong in saying I could be more active, but my reads feel shallow.
@Azrael
Can you explain any of the scum pings that you quoted regarding Sloth and Johnny?
@Cuth
It bothers me that you are so relaxed. You didn’t care when Wisp voted you, you didn’t care when they charmed you. What up with that?
@Boom
Have you read anymore of the game? Give me your thoughts on 3 random players, excluding Tammy and Wisp.
Maybe I do get too emotional, but there is still a radical difference between my play and yours
I also don't do well around people that play like Highroller, you can go as far back as the game I was modkill in fighting with Kpaca, it's not rocket science, that lowkey attacking people's intelligence is unfun to workaround, but I am the problem? Ok boomer
You don't have to be confident in your reads, you just need to talk, and ask questions lol
but thanks for the daily reminder to get Azreal to explain his thoughts, and Iso to talk about why Bur is bad
Your question to Cuth pretty much invokes my entire mindset of his playstyle right now
Unvote: Tubba
Vote: Cuth
@Grapefruit
Onwards. I'm not especially opposed to pressuring Boom and maybe get a claim out of him instead of just waiting for last 24h, getting him to claim range and then either vote him off or CFD someone based on his claim.
(Yes, yes, I know the irony of me complaining about game not moving onwards.)
I don't believe reads get stale, but they do get "left behind" if the bar for towniness is raised when everyone is acting super townie. That hasn't happened this game yet and so I'm keeping my Cantrip read.
Bur hasn't posted a lot but the casual Skill thing stuck out to be and they were easy to remember. If someone is going to say Bur is usually a lot more active and their passivity is unusual then that changes my opinion, but I'm assuming that it's NAI for him.
@Wisp, wtf are you harping on me putting you in the town list for? Like you think I forgot you were 3rder? **** me for trying to keep my list simplified.
I don't have a read on sloth because their posts have been very forgettable. Reading his quote-less posts referring to parts of the game that I haven't read is useless for me, but I can't criticize, since that's on me, not him.
For the record I think GJ is town, his D2 has been very townie. And yes I think his push on Silver was sincere, and I find Azreal's push back on GJ to be suspect.
And on that note, no I haven't read the first part of D1 yet and I likely won't still. I wasn't signed up for any games because I'm busy IRL with more important things then mafia. I've tried to be as transparent as possible, and that's the best I'm going to be able to do with the time I've got for the game. Probably the best thing I'm going to be able to do is be a Quiter, so I'll just say now that I started with 1 Vit, so we can use Wisp to execute me and use the yeet somewhere better. Or whoever drained highroller can bump me off.
Also, @grape I'll be V/LA for the next 4 days and be back on the 23rd.