KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm just going to go down the list by player here and not by vote position as I sometimes do. I'm looking at three things mainly: (1) Position on ITF, (2) Position on Tubba, (3) Immediate reactions to the counter-claim situation. With a tiny side of (4) Positions on the presumptively clear people (ZDS, GJ, Shadow), and (5) Position on me, because I get to do that.
Also deciding that this will just be a series of smaller posts and not one huge dreadnought.
Killjoy: I was fine with Killjoy's entrance to the game. He seemed to genuinely be having fun. I doubt that's alignment indicative though. Initial vote for ITF at #360 was fine, and has Tubba "on his radar" in #361 when there was no reason to mention him at all if they were scumbuddies, so that's a slight +, and it's followed up on later in a way that reads natural to me. I have nothing but positive feelings reading his stuff so far, so if KJ is scum he has really upped his game.
I have no issues with him leaving his vote on ITF, and I don't get any niggles of his being scum who is (a) excited/pushing for a mis-lynch or (b) wavering in a scummish way. This is maybe hard to quantify.
His D2 opening is:
Ok so I'm gonna work from:
Axel, Last, tom, Vaimes, Umami probably town.
And I have no idea why any of these people (excepting myself) are here. So, that seems kind of random, but not especially scummy. He also promised his own wagon analysis by yesterday, which obviously didn't happen, but then again, there were intervening circumstances.
His reaction to the cc situation was perhaps a bit more neutral than I would have expected. Doesn't initially give an opinion, just sort of lays out the situation:
So there is 100% a scum in ZDS/Shadow/Tubba.
One or both of Shadow/Tubba is a Jailkeeper.
GJ is basically confirmed town.
But I can chalk most of this up to him still reading and posting his thoughts as he goes. His "final thoughts" are fine.
Ok so final thoughts.
I think Axel is right about Tubba being more likely for the way he handled his result today vs. Shadow's handling of the same result.
Axel is still a strong townread.
GJ and ZDS are clear.
Tom is moving slightly down from where he was.
Umsmi is still probably town.
Rhand is... catching my attention. So is Sloth.
I do not have the issue some people seem to be raising right this moment that Killjoy isn't voicing his opinion strongly enough, or that his still holding open the possibility that Shadow could be the scum is itself scummy.
Overall, I come out of this with pretty good feelings about Killjoy and am comfortable putting him in my Townie pile for the moment.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Dont think anyone has issues with continuing to consider shadow
KJ continuing to consider zds well after making that final thoughts post is a bit horrific
The mindset that i see from wolfkj is basically forced incredulity
And the fact that he attacked grape for, well, credulity...
Belies that either scumkj is HARD thinking about avoiding TMI and so was aware
Or that townkj thinks grape choosing a side quickly is scummy... except half the game did that and kj said nothing basically
*Note: I am not doing these for ZDS/GJ/Shadow. They are all presumptively Town for me atm and I'm not spending any mental energy in that direction until I have better reason to think otherwise.
Rhand: Feels like he's been a non-factor this game, which is maybe a point of concern right off the top, because I feel like Town-Rhand is more aggressive/proactive maybe?
I am indifferent to Rhand's opening non-random vote for LW. I like less his switch to Shadow who also voted for LW. It's like, he says his own vote was just over a minor thing, but Shadow's seemed worse, whereas to me Shadow's vote seemed equally minor.
I do not understand why he seems to suspect KJ in #442 - if this is not just a joke. He also votes for ITF in this post and it's pretty band-waggonny:
I'll add my vote to the ITF wagon for now, it's pretty useless on VL/A Shadow.
I felt the fakeness in that post too.
vote ITF
Pretty meh.
#577 is okay. Puts KJ back in his town pile. Says he's getting "off vibes from Tubba, but he always gets those." Laments the fact he's not getting more scum reads like he usually does.
Doesn't have very much else to say about ITF. Has no reaction to ITF's "reads" post until asked about it, at which point he mostly brushes it off as "a bunch of NAI stuff."
Post ITF claim says:
Heh I just read a synopsis, and that world god is clearly a powerful bad guy.
I would be ok with lynching a vanilla claim to see if flavorgaming has merit.
And that's poor reasoning in my view. Then goes further with a bad meta argument, suggesting that ITF is playing like (some other game where he was scum). It's a particularly bad use of meta in that it appears to also require Shadow to be scum this game to be valid, and, of course, Rhand doesn't know that. He just says since he hasn't been too fond of Shadow this game so far he's okay with it.
D2 his first post is responding to ZDS who has said he has "massive issues" with Rhand's role in the ITF wagon. But he only really responds to a single (minor) point having to do with the meta read on ITF from the other game. After that he moves on to Vote Tom. I am largely indifferent to his reasons for voting Tom.
After GJ claims, this is his reaction:
So Shadow thought tom was caught while GJ said no such thing.
What GJ said is that he felt good about ZDS because of his Night action.
Maybe that was Shadow sharing TMI and tom made the kill that landed on a bulletproof / got roleblocked /...?
He didn’t notice the ZDS clear in the post, only the negativity about tom before that in the same post.
watcher + doc is very unlikely. That creates that awful scenario where watcher and doc can keep targeting each other forever and mafia can never kill them.
My guess is that ZDS got targeted by something like a rolecop. And that Shadow is that rolecop.
I think tubba and shadow have to claim now (not number of shots etc, but at least what they targeted ZDS with).
And this is a little guarded for me? It definitely seems to be suggesting Shadow as the more suspicious of the two. Then there is more caution
What the... ZDS being bulletproof is invaluable information right now.
If he is, we have a real dichotomy.
If he isn’t, this can be a cluster of townies and we shouldn’t blindly lynch the guy that isn’t here to defend himself
Suggesting that this could just be a big cluster of all Town.
He does come down on the (obvious) side after the counter-claim, but I don't love the reasoning - since Shadow counterclaimed tubba, tubba is the logical one to lynch. That's pretty simplistic. Not saying it's "wrong", but I would have preferred some more thought here. And he does say he's still open to lynching Shadow over Tubba (if he hears a good argument for it), which I don't like.
This next point might not be fair, but in response to my noting that the one point in Tubba's favor was that he claimed Jailer without knowing ZDS's claim, and could have been busted right then, Rhand says:
He was pushed in a corner. All he could hope for is for Shadow to be some other role (not a counterclaim) and ZDS to have self-preserved.
The doc claim wasn’t going to roll.
And I can legit imagine Rhand saying this exact same thing to Tubba in scum-chat: "you have no choice man, you just gotta claim and pray...."
He does have what I agree is the right position when he's arguing with Tom over whether we should lynch outside of Tubba/Shadow today. He's a definite "no", whereas some scum might have been interested in this angle, if it saves their guy for a day.
But overall, not too impressed by Rhand this game. Could easily see him as Mafia.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, not doing any more of that tonight. Try to do some more tomorrow.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Not specifically disagreeing with you, but you know Tubba as well or better than I do. You’ve seen him get feisty. He has that fire in him. If something was going to spark it, it would be this. Yet it didn’t, hence my assessment.
(I do have the benefit of knowing that Tubba is scum, but I think it is apparent regardless.)
Strongly agree with this. Ideally this would spark WiM regardless of alignment for everyone but for a certain type of player on less than ideal days that sort of dunking inspires anti spew. Based on both players Shadow's WiM is going to outpace Tubba's regardless, but I would strongly expect town!Tubba to show some degree of WiM. Scum!Tubba may or may not, really depends on his team, energy, and the thoroughness of the dunking. Combine that with all the other factors (not really engaging with ZDS, Shadow immediately jumping on GJ's "soft", and his conclusion not being that Shadow must be scum following the CC) and it points to him being scum here.
I'm changing axel to a townread I thought the ITF case was an one off but his recent posts makes me feel that he is town they is a clear thought process and that can be hard to fake when you know who is town. Intrested to see more of his views on people.
I'm also a sucker for hard work sadly which is how ZDS pocketed me so hard. Im just used to low effort scum.
I'm more than happy to vote Tubba once people (axel and whoever else isn't lazy) are ready to end the day but I might as well do something with my vote in the meantime.
Friendly reminder that up until the claim stuff jack was townreading zds for effort again
Not something I can change from easy. I know what your point is but I explained it multiple times. I assume you think I'm scum because it would mean that I know he is town which now appears to be right. Which would explain my lack of paranoia. Do you think that I can't fake paranoia about someone that I know is town?
A device swung down from the ceiling. It looked like a bulky rendition of a Nariscene in an entire symphony of coloured metals.
“Fighting is not allowed in public spaces,” it said loudly in oddly accented but perfectly comprehensible Sarl. “I shall take charge of all weapons in this vicinity. Resistance will incur physical penalties not excluding unconsciousness and death.” It was already gathering up the sword and pistol from the floor, swinging through the air with a whooshing sound. The Nariscene handed it Holse’s long knife. “Thank you,” it said. It removed Baerth’s pistol from its holster – the man was still flat out under Holse’s boot, and starting to make gurgling sounds – took another, smaller gun from the prone knight’s boot and also found a dagger and two small throwing knives in his tunic. From Vollird, now holding his right hand delicately and grimacing, it took a sword, a long knife and a length of wire with wooden grips at each end.
“All unauthorised weapons have now been removed from the vicinity,” the machine announced. Ferbin noticed that a small crowd of people – aliens, machines, whatever one might call them – had gathered at a polite distance, to watch. The machine holding all the weapons said, “Nariscene Barbarian Relational Mentor Tchilk, present, is in notional charge here until further Authority arrives. All involved will hold approximate position under my custody, meantimes. Failure to comply will incur physical penalties not excluding unconsciousness and death.”
There was a pause. “Documents?” the Oct said to Ferbin.
“Oh, have your damned documents!” he said, and fished them from his jacket. He nearly threw them at the machine, but didn’t, in case this was taken as a violent act by the device hovering over them.
I agree with tom re:Killjoy and with Axel re:Rhand (well in that case it's a "I agree with him who agrees with me" situation). Between the two (KJ and Rhand), I think we should go after Rhand first for being scummier in general.
Has Vaimes ever not been lazy and cruising this game?
The case on Jack seems to consist more and more in just nitpicking anything he says that might be interpreted as scummy, while ignoring or dismissing the rest. I don't know if he's town or scum but I do know his tunnelers give an exceedingly simplistic and negative image of him.
---
Regarding the Tubbalancerx dichotomy, one of the biggest reasons I'm siding with shadow is because he interrogated me early. From my point of view it really seemed like he had something in mind, especially if you look at his phrasing at the beginning (see 1156).
At first I thought I had somehow messed up some nefarious plans by suspecting [I don't know who] rather than [I don't know who else], but now I am very much inclined to believe him when he says he was trying to figure out if I had been the target or the perpetrator of the cancelled kill.
If he's faking something he's really good at it.
---
What's goldilocksing?
What's WIM?
What's spew and anti-spew?
The case on Jack seems to consist more and more in just nitpicking anything he says that might be interpreted as scummy, while ignoring or dismissing the rest. I don't know if he's town or scum but I do know his tunnelers give an exceedingly simplistic and negative image of him.
the **** you talking about?
I just skimmed my iso ive been pushing him for the same two things since page 9
His stated umami tunnel is factually dissonant from his actual push
His read of you factually lacks any sort of evolution
Its not nitpicking anything he says, it is scumreading him for two things <that have not changed in 1200 posts>
Its more the umami bit
But when he *proves my earlier point* by showing the awareness that would make his treatment of you this game different if he were town
Yes im gonna point it out.
Goldilocksing= like goldilocks. This is too hot, this ones too cold, ah this is just right.
Hes choosing a point on a spectrum to call towny and everything in either direction is scum.
This one isnt a mafia term lol
WIM= wants it more
Its just playing hard
Spew is basically just a weird verb for created associatives. AKA when jack flips red, umami is spewed town.
Antispew is when scum is just playing like they dont want to clear any townies/implicate any buddies upon flip. Think vaimes is prison block
@Axel: you’ve seen me as mafia. Caught me even. Don’t you think my mafia play is a lot stronger than what you’re giving me credit for here?
First off, my being a non-entity: I know. I’ve acknowledged it before and it bothers me. I lack strong reads in this game, which usually never happens to me. The thing is that as mafia it wouldn’t happen to me. I would have found stuff to grab onto and pushed it. It’s what I do.
My Shadow push wasn’t because he voted LW, it was because he tried to convince tom to join him on LW.
Me thinking KJ might be mafia was all about postcount. Which is a trigger that put KJ on my radar.
I said he might be scum in response to tom (I think it was tom), but didn’t pursue because lower postcount can have different reasons AnD I mean it when I say I want KJ to get decent experience as mafia so he’ll understand the mafia mindset better when he’s town.
Yes, my ITF vote was a bandwagon vote. They felt fake and were what I thought the best lynch at that point.
The flavorgaming thing was me thinking ITF had a good chance of flipping mafia and was not a town PR, so we might as well check if flavor is a thing.
The meta case felt right. Before judging me over that, I want to implore you to look at their ISO’s from Winterfell and here and compare them. They’re both short.
Rodemy did that and came to the same conclusion.
And yes, I thought at the time that Shadow was mafia too, so it all clicked into place for me.
You say that I come out of the GJ claim with a suspicion on Shadow as if it’s a weird thing. I have been scumreading Shadow all game.
And Shadow was softing a doc claim, which I thought was completely impossible.
In retrospect wanting ZDS to claim if he’s bulletproof wasn’t the right play.
When the whole claim thing went down, I understood what Shadow was doing. When he claimed Jailer and I read back into the conversation, I understood his tom vote and his soft. It all made sense.
That and tubba claiming first make me pretty sure tubba is the correct lynch here.
Shadow is not the type to sacrifice himself as mafia to get 1 townie lynched.
The reason I was still open (I am not anymore now) to a Shadow lynch is because I’ve been scumreading Shadow before all that and I wanted to see if there would be solid logic for him being scum over tubba. Which I haven’t seen.
I don’t like your conclusion. Not being impressed is not a reason to scumread me. I like to see my scumgame as impressive.
Self-meta and "I usually play better than this" are never good arguments. That being said, if you ever see me play unusually poorly in a future game, you should definitely townclear me because I too "like to see my scumgame as impressive".
the **** you talking about?
I just skimmed my iso ive been pushing him for the same two things since page 9
Yes. That's exactly the issue. These were never huge tells and he's had other posts since then. Not that you care about them, you have decreed since page 9 he had to be scum so obviously they are not worth reading (except to nitpick).
the **** you talking about?
I just skimmed my iso ive been pushing him for the same two things since page 9
Yes. That's exactly the issue. These were never huge tells and he's had other posts since then. Not that you care about them, you have decreed since page 9 he had to be scum so obviously they are not worth reading (except to nitpick).
please, show me an example of me nitpicking literally any of those other posts. Ill freely admit to ignoring chaff in favor of the things i care about, but thats very much not what youre saying here.
Yes ive maintained the same read as his stances on both of those things have remained completely unchanged and no one has offered a better explanation...
But ok. You dont think theyre huge tells.
What is your opinion on his read of umami?
Do his actions match his words?
Is it a good read at all?
Did you expect jack to easily and implictily trust you this game?
Seen any sign that he learned anything from prison?
I did some analysis of interactions with/about Tubba, because I don't know if I'll be alive Day 3 to post it then (I'm probably lower priority for scum than Johnny or town-shadow, but that's exactly what makes me likely to die instead).
Since Tubba hasn't flipped yet I took both worlds into account, but as you will see it became apparent a town-Tubba flips tells us very little due to how the wagons on him happened (mostly ignored Day 1, really obvious Day 2 after the claims). I also haven't reviewed the last few pages, because there is no incentive for anyone not to vote Tubba except for contrarianism sake.
Johnny and shadow aren't included for obvious reasons. Tubba himself is included indirectly (eg his posts about Whispy are included in the Whispy paragrah).
Townier:
— Rodemy, Umami
Somewhat townier:
— Axelrod, Jackrito, Slothful
No change:
— Grapefruit21
More WIFOM than in all of France and Italy:
— Rhand, tomsloger, Vaimes
Somewhat scummier:
— Killjoy
Scummier:
— Lastwhisper
1. Grapefruit21
Only had one interaction with Tubba (in 788), asking him to detail some of his more unusual reads.
No change in current opinion regardless of what Tubba flips.
2. ZeDorkSlipeur
I basically ignored Tubba Day 1 except for one post (919) that triggered me at the time, then had him as likely scum after the ITF wagon analysis. I'm including this paragraph to remind myself and others not to automatically doubt players who didn't interact much with the Fett.
4. Rhand
Tubba himself had him as a kind of background scum read, until voting him Day 2. Rhand mostly ignored him until Johnny's claim, when he tiptoed around the situation. 1408, where Tubba keeps accusing Rhand despite the situation he's in, is very interesting and WIFOMy.
I see three possibilities:
— Both are scum and what started as mild distancing (in the Tubba -> Rhand direction) became an attempt to WIFOM-clear Rhand;
— Tubba is scum and Rhand is town, and what started as going after a relatively-easy-but-not-LHF target became an attempt to WIFOM-condemn Rhand;
— Tubba is town and the whole thing reflects neither particularly well nor poorly on Rhand.
I'm not placing any bets.
5. Jackrito
Was for a while in a conflicting situation where he disliked Umami's vote and stance on Tubba, but did have Tubba in his "scum pile". Then you can see him progressively clear the Fett in 790, 804 and 870.
Two options:
— Both are scum and we are seeing a very mild case of chainsaw defending;
— Jack is town and, regardless of what Tubba is, got swayed partly by his own tunnel on Umami and partly by Tubba's tone.
My money is on the second one because that progression is organic (from a Jack-really-is-tunneling-Uma POV), but since I can't completely deny the first option Jack only gets to be slightly townier if Tubba flips scum.
8. tomsloger
Joined the Tubba wagon early during that phase of the early game when he was throwing naked votes in various directions. Ostensibly bothered by his own lack of townread on Tubba although you don't see him make anything out of it. The most telling post about him in my opinion is Tubba's 325, which is written like he assumes/knows tom is town OR that his vote isn't serious ("Gun to my head he wants to push me to be better" That's not how you react to someone voting you). This is another one of these situations with multiple interpretations:
— Tubba is scum and slipped that tom is town;
— Both are scum and Tubba slipped that tom's vote was never serious;
— Tubba is town and is either very good or very bad at reading tom quickly.
No bet here.
9. Vaimes
He first reacted to the initial votes on Tubba (Whispy's and Uma's) by doubting the case (and accusing Uma of bussing), then took interest in tom's own vote and lack of townread on the Fett, which culminated in Vaimes's own vote. After that it's mostly silence and hedging (737). Tubba himself didn't really interact with him. I can see a scenario where scum-Vaimes started by defending scum-Tubba then saw tom's vote as a sign it may be a good idea to bus, but I can also see town-Vaimes not understanding the initial case until tom's vote made him doubt.
10. Lastwhisper
Tubba started Day 1 by voting him for changing his mind on Umami, and Whispy responded by OMGUSing him. Then they both entered a mysterious dance.
Whispy chilled down, realising his vote may have been rushed (369) and changing his stance to "Tubba doesn't really feel any different then last game so far honestly" (458) (wait, what?). He ostensibly null read him, until twilight when he randomly named him as someone a vengeful should kill (1079), and until Day 2 when he voted him right away.
Tubba kept voting Whispy all of Day 1 but never really pushed. He explained his read multiple times, it's the main thing he did actually, but rather than try to convince anyone it seems more like he was actually trying to tone it down (eg 302, 310, 379, 485, 663, 779), then completely forgot about it Day 2.
If Tubba is scum, that whole tango looks like distancing/bussing. Only the very early OMGUS reflects somewhat well on Whispy.
11. Umami
Was one of the first to vote Tubba. 337 shows her having a far more developped read on him than on her other scumspects at the time. She sticks to this stance. In the other direction, Tubba doesn't interact with her in any meaningful way other than weakly calling her scum (in association with Whispy).
If Tubba is scum the situation reflects very well on her (no change if he's town).
12. Slothful
He hints several times at being interested in Tubba and wanting to review him, though he hasn't done it so far. External circumstances make the lack of going through with the review yet NAI, but the various mentions *are* AI. The options here are:
— His eyes caught something (Tubba's scumminess or LHFness, depending on Sloth's side);
— They are both scum and it was placeholder distancing.
My money is on the first and if Tubba is scum, it would imply Sloth is town.
13. Rodemy
Asked a few questions to and about Tubba, and seemed to take offense in Tubba claiming he was meshing with him (840, 854). When Tubba answered in 919 (by sitting on every fence and meshing with nothing), Rod seemed to forget why he asked for this in the first place (983, 984). Aside from that bit of silliness, Rodemy ends up looking good if Tubba is scum (no change if he's town).
15. Killjoy
Reacted to the Tubba wagon with "Tubba's kinda on my radar, but I'm not focusing on him rn" (361), then made it a point early on to insist on his inability to read him (457, 459, 530). That's pretty much all there is to see (until the recent claim cascade), other than maybe 664 where he asks Axel why he didn't move his vote to Tubba after re-reading him. It could be sincere, but he insisted so much it becomes weird.
16. Axelrod
Was late to the Tubba party Day 1 but did have a negative opinion after reviewing him (637) (and again in 1223 but who cares?) and did push him for content (727). If Tubba is scum, Axel would be topping my (unconfirmed) townlist if he had actually voted him after unvoting ITF. He didn't, so he only gets to appear as somewhat townie (which is still positive).
What is your opinion on his read of umami?
Do his actions match his words?
Is it a good read at all?
Did you expect jack to easily and implictily trust you this game?
Seen any sign that he learned anything from prison?
The fact Jack apparently still scumreads Umami despite how many players are vouching for her is a sign of tunneling. For that matter, the main reason I stopped suspecting Uma is because of all the vouchers she got, and even then I had her as "don't sleep on her" until the big analysis above. Jack's defense of Tubba Day 1 in response to Uma's vote is also a sign of tunneling, although that can instead be interpreted as a sign Jack and Tubba are buddies.
It's true he doesn't do much in terms of actually pushing her, or anyone for that matter, and his self-consciousness *is* strange, but he does act like he is convinced she's scum. The lack of push to go with that could be a playstyle thing: do you remember him going after anyone with any kind of force in Prison Block? I don't, and he was definitely tunneling a few players there (I made sure of it).
Him trusting me relatively easily despite how much I made him my prison puppet is NAI. If he can't help townread me, he can't help it. I'm sorry I'm so great. In fact I would doubt him more if he used our common jail time as a lousy excuse to shade me.
Overall it's very possible you are the one who's right and I'm the one who's wrong here. That wouldn't be the first time this game. Nonetheless I still find the case weak, and there are enough scummier players (and genuine-looking reactions from Jack) that I'm not worried about him.
For that matter, the main reason I stopped suspecting Uma is because of all the vouchers she got, and even then I had her as "don't sleep on her" until the big analysis above.
To clarify, that's meant as "I'm not the right person to ask if Jack's Uma read is good".
From my side, i think the way i treated tubba is within the realm of how id treat him as a partner. Largely letting him sink or swim on his own.
Id probably talk less about my <small sample size because im usually scum but still literal perfect track record of reading him right> but i think thats known anyway
But i am counting this as ~getting it right again if hes scum. Wasnt pushing him at all but i did have him as lean scum before claim stuff
If tubba is scum, continuing to push rhand after claims is exactly the sort of thing where "antispew" gets brought in. If thats the case he knows hes flipping soon and his interactions will be read into.
Big ol
I like your scenarios for last and vaimes being partners
Feels viable
Ok sure.
Jack doesnt really push anything strongly.
Perhaps his way of expressing a strong read is just... saying hes in a tunnel.
That seems like more steps than just a wolf with a fake read but its possible.
Perhaps im also not the one to have opinions on the content of the read because she's so obviously town if you know her.
But comparison with you definitely doesnt make me feel better. Jacks read is still exactly the same as the buzzwordy RVS-adjacent read he had early day 1. You listened to others, he directly said he doesnt care what others think
Comparison to someone in an actual tunnel (ahem) doesnt look great either. Wheres jack finding new examples of umami doing the things he hates and talking about them? Its not like shes changed at all
I think if the two of you are scum you had an extra incentive to *at least* distance from him, which you did, if only so you wouldn't come under fire if he died first.
Not that this is indicative of anything. Town-you could have played the exact same way as far as I can tell.
man I really dislike associations, but given how disconnected I am from this game its probably a fair thought
wolf!me probably handles wolf!Tubba by dawdling on the line between light bussing and saying they are probably fine
I've pretty much changed my tune because of recent games, including the last MTGS game, where I feel like low posters are just the better way to go before I start looking for people that are somewhat active and giving their thoughts
Vaimes can go either way
don't really see much of a need to do much more day 2 given everything so far
like part of me is worried of hitting the town!jailor, but like in the end I don't much care if we do lose a PR because I try not to focus on mechanics anyways
I think shadow said something about Wisp trying hard not to care here, and yes that is pretty much what is happening
thats pretty how I've been trying to play my games early on as of recently
So he cant help but townread you
Knows thats the case...
And steers into it rather than just sticking you in null like pretty much everyone else did?
Were talking about literal zero attempts to figure you out. No new methods, no comparison to last game, not even asking you a single question that i can see only quoting you to encourage you to townread him basically.
Looks a little pockety, and certainly not like someone who wants to figure you out.
Like, ok
I just did a percentages post i do still have jack as more likely town than scum.
But the scum interpretations feel so much simpler to me i cannot understand the resistance here.
The following sentence is the definition of confirmation bias, but if jack is town where the **** are the opportunistic scum on him?
I guess it could be grape but it doesnt feel like scumgrape. Im pretty confident its not umami.
Re: Jack, can we agree to first look at players we agree are scum?
i mean sure?
Were lynching tubba today
Id currently lynch sloth over jack by some small amount
We'll see where he falls in relation to kj/last/vaimes after tubba flip i dont *actively* think hes a wolf with tubba
Its still a read i hold and i will defend myself if you wanna call a well thought out read on two specific things "just nitpicking anything he says"
I mean I do it, but not to the levels of Tom
and it usually depends on my mood or the game state
or when people decide to start talking about how I should, would, or am playing in regards to other people or my supposed "meta"
Whispy, for my information, do you (just like tom) have a history of describing how you did play as how you would play as scum?
not sure, but he HAS pushed me for it before
I try to always be honest with those when im a wolf too ftr.
I think the only partners i would eliminate for myself this game are jack, sloth, and shadow.
Also my read of kj towards eod is totally a scumtom move (if partners with axel)
@Tom
how do you manage to talk about things you think or will do
and then just discredit them to nothing but "nitpicking" for example
this is just one example, but like this a common thing with you that makes telling if any of your thoughts are real just a pain
also in regards to you Jack statement
"townreading ZDS for effort again"
I think its more complex than, "He make posts, he good"
if you took a look at the meta on our site, you would understand why he thinks like that
do you believe because of how ZDS played last game that we should just be paranoid of him every game?
Whispy, for my information, do you (just like tom) have a history of describing how you did play as how you would play as scum?
not sure, but he HAS pushed me for it before
I try to always be honest with those when im a wolf too ftr.
I think the only partners i would eliminate for myself this game are jack, sloth, and shadow.
Also my read of kj towards eod is totally a scumtom move (if partners with axel)
actually ya, "I think the only partners i would eliminate for myself this game are jack, sloth, and shadow."
this comes down to something like, I have actively stated I want to vote them or scum read them for reasons because
something like, wolf!Tom doesn't buss unless he absolutely has to?
am I doing this right?
@Tom
how do you manage to talk about things you think or will do
and then just discredit them to nothing but "nitpicking" for example
this is just one example, but like this a common thing with you that makes telling if any of your thoughts are real just a pain
also in regards to you Jack statement
"townreading ZDS for effort again"
I think its more complex than, "He make posts, he good"
if you took a look at the meta on our site, you would understand why he thinks like that
do you believe because of how ZDS played last game that we should just be paranoid of him every game?
zds said it was nitpicking, i was being sassy
But
Uh
Both all and none of my thoughts are real. Because i know that nothing is absolute. Im just dealing in probabilities and incremental changes
I do think jacks overarching umami stance is the scummiest thing in this thread. That doesnt mean it cant come from town.
I dont expect active distrust of zds. I do expect wariness, or paranoia, of some kind. I expect some considerstion or change of method.
actually ya, "I think the only partners i would eliminate for myself this game are jack, sloth, and shadow."
this comes down to something like, I have actively stated I want to vote them or scum read them for reasons because
something like, wolf!Tom doesn't buss unless he absolutely has to?
am I doing this right?
Its true i dont bus unless i have to, but i do distance, so theres gotta be a little more to it than that.
Sloth is basically just that.
Jack is more "time spent" im never gonna spend that much of my energy playing against wincon
Shadow is more complicated and hard to explain to anyone but him
Oh oh, explain it to me!
(I would agre but I want to see your logic)
i think my push on you towards eod was very much not for mass consumption. Regardless of my alignment i was looking to get a reaction out of you.
So if we're w/w that reaction is more memorable than your grumpy dismissal.
Would also say our interactions after todays claims go differently but meh
Just have other time-sensitive things going on, and if there weren't a dichotomy here, then I'd be around more. As it stands, we're lynching one of two people, and that's fine with me.
By the time we get to the next Day phase, my time-sensitive thing should be [almost] over anyways.
We are waiting for the following players:
— Umami needs to finish catching up;
— Sloth needs to *start* catching up;
— Killjoy promised an analysis of the Day 1 wagon(s);
— Axelrod is writing up analyses.
If you are one of the four players mentioned above and you are fine with moving on with the lynch, let it be known.
If you are another player and are preparing something good, let it be known too.
When we are down to one or two players catching-up/re-reading, we'll close the curtains. Waiting for absolutely everyone to be done means getting way past the level of boredom the town can endure.
Speaking of which, if you are bored, do something with your time. Re-read random posts. Poke people. Look for scum outside Tubba/shadow. In short, keep your mind active.
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Also deciding that this will just be a series of smaller posts and not one huge dreadnought.
Killjoy: I was fine with Killjoy's entrance to the game. He seemed to genuinely be having fun. I doubt that's alignment indicative though. Initial vote for ITF at #360 was fine, and has Tubba "on his radar" in #361 when there was no reason to mention him at all if they were scumbuddies, so that's a slight +, and it's followed up on later in a way that reads natural to me. I have nothing but positive feelings reading his stuff so far, so if KJ is scum he has really upped his game.
I have no issues with him leaving his vote on ITF, and I don't get any niggles of his being scum who is (a) excited/pushing for a mis-lynch or (b) wavering in a scummish way. This is maybe hard to quantify.
His D2 opening is: And I have no idea why any of these people (excepting myself) are here. So, that seems kind of random, but not especially scummy. He also promised his own wagon analysis by yesterday, which obviously didn't happen, but then again, there were intervening circumstances.
His reaction to the cc situation was perhaps a bit more neutral than I would have expected. Doesn't initially give an opinion, just sort of lays out the situation: But I can chalk most of this up to him still reading and posting his thoughts as he goes. His "final thoughts" are fine. I do not have the issue some people seem to be raising right this moment that Killjoy isn't voicing his opinion strongly enough, or that his still holding open the possibility that Shadow could be the scum is itself scummy.
Overall, I come out of this with pretty good feelings about Killjoy and am comfortable putting him in my Townie pile for the moment.
KJ continuing to consider zds well after making that final thoughts post is a bit horrific
The mindset that i see from wolfkj is basically forced incredulity
And the fact that he attacked grape for, well, credulity...
Belies that either scumkj is HARD thinking about avoiding TMI and so was aware
Or that townkj thinks grape choosing a side quickly is scummy... except half the game did that and kj said nothing basically
I need a night off first though.
See you then
Rhand: Feels like he's been a non-factor this game, which is maybe a point of concern right off the top, because I feel like Town-Rhand is more aggressive/proactive maybe?
I am indifferent to Rhand's opening non-random vote for LW. I like less his switch to Shadow who also voted for LW. It's like, he says his own vote was just over a minor thing, but Shadow's seemed worse, whereas to me Shadow's vote seemed equally minor.
I do not understand why he seems to suspect KJ in #442 - if this is not just a joke. He also votes for ITF in this post and it's pretty band-waggonny: Pretty meh.
#577 is okay. Puts KJ back in his town pile. Says he's getting "off vibes from Tubba, but he always gets those." Laments the fact he's not getting more scum reads like he usually does.
Doesn't have very much else to say about ITF. Has no reaction to ITF's "reads" post until asked about it, at which point he mostly brushes it off as "a bunch of NAI stuff."
Post ITF claim says: And that's poor reasoning in my view. Then goes further with a bad meta argument, suggesting that ITF is playing like (some other game where he was scum). It's a particularly bad use of meta in that it appears to also require Shadow to be scum this game to be valid, and, of course, Rhand doesn't know that. He just says since he hasn't been too fond of Shadow this game so far he's okay with it.
D2 his first post is responding to ZDS who has said he has "massive issues" with Rhand's role in the ITF wagon. But he only really responds to a single (minor) point having to do with the meta read on ITF from the other game. After that he moves on to Vote Tom. I am largely indifferent to his reasons for voting Tom.
After GJ claims, this is his reaction: And this is a little guarded for me? It definitely seems to be suggesting Shadow as the more suspicious of the two. Then there is more caution Suggesting that this could just be a big cluster of all Town.
He does come down on the (obvious) side after the counter-claim, but I don't love the reasoning - since Shadow counterclaimed tubba, tubba is the logical one to lynch. That's pretty simplistic. Not saying it's "wrong", but I would have preferred some more thought here. And he does say he's still open to lynching Shadow over Tubba (if he hears a good argument for it), which I don't like.
This next point might not be fair, but in response to my noting that the one point in Tubba's favor was that he claimed Jailer without knowing ZDS's claim, and could have been busted right then, Rhand says: And I can legit imagine Rhand saying this exact same thing to Tubba in scum-chat: "you have no choice man, you just gotta claim and pray...."
He does have what I agree is the right position when he's arguing with Tom over whether we should lynch outside of Tubba/Shadow today. He's a definite "no", whereas some scum might have been interested in this angle, if it saves their guy for a day.
But overall, not too impressed by Rhand this game. Could easily see him as Mafia.
Strongly agree with this. Ideally this would spark WiM regardless of alignment for everyone but for a certain type of player on less than ideal days that sort of dunking inspires anti spew. Based on both players Shadow's WiM is going to outpace Tubba's regardless, but I would strongly expect town!Tubba to show some degree of WiM. Scum!Tubba may or may not, really depends on his team, energy, and the thoroughness of the dunking. Combine that with all the other factors (not really engaging with ZDS, Shadow immediately jumping on GJ's "soft", and his conclusion not being that Shadow must be scum following the CC) and it points to him being scum here.
I'm also a sucker for hard work sadly which is how ZDS pocketed me so hard. Im just used to low effort scum.
I'm more than happy to vote Tubba once people (axel and whoever else isn't lazy) are ready to end the day but I might as well do something with my vote in the meantime.
Not something I can change from easy. I know what your point is but I explained it multiple times. I assume you think I'm scum because it would mean that I know he is town which now appears to be right. Which would explain my lack of paranoia. Do you think that I can't fake paranoia about someone that I know is town?
Just general lack of evolution and wariness.
Town that just got snowed by someone dont read them the exact same way again.
“Fighting is not allowed in public spaces,” it said loudly in oddly accented but perfectly comprehensible Sarl. “I shall take charge of all weapons in this vicinity. Resistance will incur physical penalties not excluding unconsciousness and death.” It was already gathering up the sword and pistol from the floor, swinging through the air with a whooshing sound. The Nariscene handed it Holse’s long knife. “Thank you,” it said. It removed Baerth’s pistol from its holster – the man was still flat out under Holse’s boot, and starting to make gurgling sounds – took another, smaller gun from the prone knight’s boot and also found a dagger and two small throwing knives in his tunic. From Vollird, now holding his right hand delicately and grimacing, it took a sword, a long knife and a length of wire with wooden grips at each end.
“All unauthorised weapons have now been removed from the vicinity,” the machine announced. Ferbin noticed that a small crowd of people – aliens, machines, whatever one might call them – had gathered at a polite distance, to watch. The machine holding all the weapons said, “Nariscene Barbarian Relational Mentor Tchilk, present, is in notional charge here until further Authority arrives. All involved will hold approximate position under my custody, meantimes. Failure to comply will incur physical penalties not excluding unconsciousness and death.”
There was a pause. “Documents?” the Oct said to Ferbin.
“Oh, have your damned documents!” he said, and fished them from his jacket. He nearly threw them at the machine, but didn’t, in case this was taken as a violent act by the device hovering over them.
shadowlancerx - 2 (Tubba Fett, Rodemy)
Jackrito - 2 (Umami, Grapefruit21)
Axelrod - 1 (Slothful)
Slothful - 1 (tomsloger)
Not Voting - 3 (ZeDorkSlipeur, Killjoy, Axelrod)
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to achieve a majority.
Day 2 ends at 11:59:59 PM Eastern Time on 05 May 2020.
Vote Count 2.1
Vote Count 2.2
Vote Count 2.3
Vote Count 1.1
Vote Count 1.2
Vote Count 1.3
Vote Count 1.4
Vote Count 1.5
Vote Count 1.6
Vote Count 1.7
Vote Count 1.8
Vote Count 1.9
Vote Count 1.10 [Final]
End of Day 1
If your vote is uncounted and I didn't say why, please PM me or DM me on Discord so I can investigate.
Has Vaimes ever not been lazy and cruising this game?
The case on Jack seems to consist more and more in just nitpicking anything he says that might be interpreted as scummy, while ignoring or dismissing the rest. I don't know if he's town or scum but I do know his tunnelers give an exceedingly simplistic and negative image of him.
---
Regarding the Tubbalancerx dichotomy, one of the biggest reasons I'm siding with shadow is because he interrogated me early. From my point of view it really seemed like he had something in mind, especially if you look at his phrasing at the beginning (see 1156).
At first I thought I had somehow messed up some nefarious plans by suspecting [I don't know who] rather than [I don't know who else], but now I am very much inclined to believe him when he says he was trying to figure out if I had been the target or the perpetrator of the cancelled kill.
If he's faking something he's really good at it.
---
What's goldilocksing?
What's WIM?
What's spew and anti-spew?
I just skimmed my iso ive been pushing him for the same two things since page 9
His stated umami tunnel is factually dissonant from his actual push
His read of you factually lacks any sort of evolution
Its not nitpicking anything he says, it is scumreading him for two things <that have not changed in 1200 posts>
Its more the umami bit
But when he *proves my earlier point* by showing the awareness that would make his treatment of you this game different if he were town
Yes im gonna point it out.
Goldilocksing= like goldilocks. This is too hot, this ones too cold, ah this is just right.
Hes choosing a point on a spectrum to call towny and everything in either direction is scum.
This one isnt a mafia term lol
WIM= wants it more
Its just playing hard
Spew is basically just a weird verb for created associatives. AKA when jack flips red, umami is spewed town.
Antispew is when scum is just playing like they dont want to clear any townies/implicate any buddies upon flip. Think vaimes is prison block
And yes possibly vaimes here too
First off, my being a non-entity: I know. I’ve acknowledged it before and it bothers me. I lack strong reads in this game, which usually never happens to me. The thing is that as mafia it wouldn’t happen to me. I would have found stuff to grab onto and pushed it. It’s what I do.
My Shadow push wasn’t because he voted LW, it was because he tried to convince tom to join him on LW.
Me thinking KJ might be mafia was all about postcount. Which is a trigger that put KJ on my radar.
I said he might be scum in response to tom (I think it was tom), but didn’t pursue because lower postcount can have different reasons AnD I mean it when I say I want KJ to get decent experience as mafia so he’ll understand the mafia mindset better when he’s town.
Yes, my ITF vote was a bandwagon vote. They felt fake and were what I thought the best lynch at that point.
The flavorgaming thing was me thinking ITF had a good chance of flipping mafia and was not a town PR, so we might as well check if flavor is a thing.
The meta case felt right. Before judging me over that, I want to implore you to look at their ISO’s from Winterfell and here and compare them. They’re both short.
Rodemy did that and came to the same conclusion.
And yes, I thought at the time that Shadow was mafia too, so it all clicked into place for me.
You say that I come out of the GJ claim with a suspicion on Shadow as if it’s a weird thing. I have been scumreading Shadow all game.
And Shadow was softing a doc claim, which I thought was completely impossible.
In retrospect wanting ZDS to claim if he’s bulletproof wasn’t the right play.
When the whole claim thing went down, I understood what Shadow was doing. When he claimed Jailer and I read back into the conversation, I understood his tom vote and his soft. It all made sense.
That and tubba claiming first make me pretty sure tubba is the correct lynch here.
Shadow is not the type to sacrifice himself as mafia to get 1 townie lynched.
The reason I was still open (I am not anymore now) to a Shadow lynch is because I’ve been scumreading Shadow before all that and I wanted to see if there would be solid logic for him being scum over tubba. Which I haven’t seen.
I don’t like your conclusion. Not being impressed is not a reason to scumread me. I like to see my scumgame as impressive.
Yes. That's exactly the issue. These were never huge tells and he's had other posts since then. Not that you care about them, you have decreed since page 9 he had to be scum so obviously they are not worth reading (except to nitpick).
Yes ive maintained the same read as his stances on both of those things have remained completely unchanged and no one has offered a better explanation...
But ok. You dont think theyre huge tells.
What is your opinion on his read of umami?
Do his actions match his words?
Is it a good read at all?
Did you expect jack to easily and implictily trust you this game?
Seen any sign that he learned anything from prison?
Since Tubba hasn't flipped yet I took both worlds into account, but as you will see it became apparent a town-Tubba flips tells us very little due to how the wagons on him happened (mostly ignored Day 1, really obvious Day 2 after the claims). I also haven't reviewed the last few pages, because there is no incentive for anyone not to vote Tubba except for contrarianism sake.
Johnny and shadow aren't included for obvious reasons. Tubba himself is included indirectly (eg his posts about Whispy are included in the Whispy paragrah).
Townier:
— Rodemy, Umami
Somewhat townier:
— Axelrod, Jackrito, Slothful
No change:
— Grapefruit21
More WIFOM than in all of France and Italy:
— Rhand, tomsloger, Vaimes
Somewhat scummier:
— Killjoy
Scummier:
— Lastwhisper
1. Grapefruit21
Only had one interaction with Tubba (in 788), asking him to detail some of his more unusual reads.
No change in current opinion regardless of what Tubba flips.
2. ZeDorkSlipeur
I basically ignored Tubba Day 1 except for one post (919) that triggered me at the time, then had him as likely scum after the ITF wagon analysis. I'm including this paragraph to remind myself and others not to automatically doubt players who didn't interact much with the Fett.
4. Rhand
Tubba himself had him as a kind of background scum read, until voting him Day 2. Rhand mostly ignored him until Johnny's claim, when he tiptoed around the situation. 1408, where Tubba keeps accusing Rhand despite the situation he's in, is very interesting and WIFOMy.
I see three possibilities:
— Both are scum and what started as mild distancing (in the Tubba -> Rhand direction) became an attempt to WIFOM-clear Rhand;
— Tubba is scum and Rhand is town, and what started as going after a relatively-easy-but-not-LHF target became an attempt to WIFOM-condemn Rhand;
— Tubba is town and the whole thing reflects neither particularly well nor poorly on Rhand.
I'm not placing any bets.
5. Jackrito
Was for a while in a conflicting situation where he disliked Umami's vote and stance on Tubba, but did have Tubba in his "scum pile". Then you can see him progressively clear the Fett in 790, 804 and 870.
Two options:
— Both are scum and we are seeing a very mild case of chainsaw defending;
— Jack is town and, regardless of what Tubba is, got swayed partly by his own tunnel on Umami and partly by Tubba's tone.
My money is on the second one because that progression is organic (from a Jack-really-is-tunneling-Uma POV), but since I can't completely deny the first option Jack only gets to be slightly townier if Tubba flips scum.
8. tomsloger
Joined the Tubba wagon early during that phase of the early game when he was throwing naked votes in various directions. Ostensibly bothered by his own lack of townread on Tubba although you don't see him make anything out of it. The most telling post about him in my opinion is Tubba's 325, which is written like he assumes/knows tom is town OR that his vote isn't serious ("Gun to my head he wants to push me to be better" That's not how you react to someone voting you). This is another one of these situations with multiple interpretations:
— Tubba is scum and slipped that tom is town;
— Both are scum and Tubba slipped that tom's vote was never serious;
— Tubba is town and is either very good or very bad at reading tom quickly.
No bet here.
9. Vaimes
He first reacted to the initial votes on Tubba (Whispy's and Uma's) by doubting the case (and accusing Uma of bussing), then took interest in tom's own vote and lack of townread on the Fett, which culminated in Vaimes's own vote. After that it's mostly silence and hedging (737). Tubba himself didn't really interact with him. I can see a scenario where scum-Vaimes started by defending scum-Tubba then saw tom's vote as a sign it may be a good idea to bus, but I can also see town-Vaimes not understanding the initial case until tom's vote made him doubt.
10. Lastwhisper
Tubba started Day 1 by voting him for changing his mind on Umami, and Whispy responded by OMGUSing him. Then they both entered a mysterious dance.
Whispy chilled down, realising his vote may have been rushed (369) and changing his stance to "Tubba doesn't really feel any different then last game so far honestly" (458) (wait, what?). He ostensibly null read him, until twilight when he randomly named him as someone a vengeful should kill (1079), and until Day 2 when he voted him right away.
Tubba kept voting Whispy all of Day 1 but never really pushed. He explained his read multiple times, it's the main thing he did actually, but rather than try to convince anyone it seems more like he was actually trying to tone it down (eg 302, 310, 379, 485, 663, 779), then completely forgot about it Day 2.
If Tubba is scum, that whole tango looks like distancing/bussing. Only the very early OMGUS reflects somewhat well on Whispy.
11. Umami
Was one of the first to vote Tubba. 337 shows her having a far more developped read on him than on her other scumspects at the time. She sticks to this stance. In the other direction, Tubba doesn't interact with her in any meaningful way other than weakly calling her scum (in association with Whispy).
If Tubba is scum the situation reflects very well on her (no change if he's town).
12. Slothful
He hints several times at being interested in Tubba and wanting to review him, though he hasn't done it so far. External circumstances make the lack of going through with the review yet NAI, but the various mentions *are* AI. The options here are:
— His eyes caught something (Tubba's scumminess or LHFness, depending on Sloth's side);
— They are both scum and it was placeholder distancing.
My money is on the first and if Tubba is scum, it would imply Sloth is town.
13. Rodemy
Asked a few questions to and about Tubba, and seemed to take offense in Tubba claiming he was meshing with him (840, 854). When Tubba answered in 919 (by sitting on every fence and meshing with nothing), Rod seemed to forget why he asked for this in the first place (983, 984). Aside from that bit of silliness, Rodemy ends up looking good if Tubba is scum (no change if he's town).
15. Killjoy
Reacted to the Tubba wagon with "Tubba's kinda on my radar, but I'm not focusing on him rn" (361), then made it a point early on to insist on his inability to read him (457, 459, 530). That's pretty much all there is to see (until the recent claim cascade), other than maybe 664 where he asks Axel why he didn't move his vote to Tubba after re-reading him. It could be sincere, but he insisted so much it becomes weird.
16. Axelrod
Was late to the Tubba party Day 1 but did have a negative opinion after reviewing him (637) (and again in 1223 but who cares?) and did push him for content (727). If Tubba is scum, Axel would be topping my (unconfirmed) townlist if he had actually voted him after unvoting ITF. He didn't, so he only gets to appear as somewhat townie (which is still positive).
The fact Jack apparently still scumreads Umami despite how many players are vouching for her is a sign of tunneling. For that matter, the main reason I stopped suspecting Uma is because of all the vouchers she got, and even then I had her as "don't sleep on her" until the big analysis above. Jack's defense of Tubba Day 1 in response to Uma's vote is also a sign of tunneling, although that can instead be interpreted as a sign Jack and Tubba are buddies.
It's true he doesn't do much in terms of actually pushing her, or anyone for that matter, and his self-consciousness *is* strange, but he does act like he is convinced she's scum. The lack of push to go with that could be a playstyle thing: do you remember him going after anyone with any kind of force in Prison Block? I don't, and he was definitely tunneling a few players there (I made sure of it).
Him trusting me relatively easily despite how much I made him my prison puppet is NAI. If he can't help townread me, he can't help it. I'm sorry I'm so great. In fact I would doubt him more if he used our common jail time as a lousy excuse to shade me.
Overall it's very possible you are the one who's right and I'm the one who's wrong here. That wouldn't be the first time this game. Nonetheless I still find the case weak, and there are enough scummier players (and genuine-looking reactions from Jack) that I'm not worried about him.
To clarify, that's meant as "I'm not the right person to ask if Jack's Uma read is good".
Id probably talk less about my <small sample size because im usually scum but still literal perfect track record of reading him right> but i think thats known anyway
But i am counting this as ~getting it right again if hes scum. Wasnt pushing him at all but i did have him as lean scum before claim stuff
If tubba is scum, continuing to push rhand after claims is exactly the sort of thing where "antispew" gets brought in. If thats the case he knows hes flipping soon and his interactions will be read into.
Big ol
I like your scenarios for last and vaimes being partners
Feels viable
Jack doesnt really push anything strongly.
Perhaps his way of expressing a strong read is just... saying hes in a tunnel.
That seems like more steps than just a wolf with a fake read but its possible.
Perhaps im also not the one to have opinions on the content of the read because she's so obviously town if you know her.
But comparison with you definitely doesnt make me feel better. Jacks read is still exactly the same as the buzzwordy RVS-adjacent read he had early day 1. You listened to others, he directly said he doesnt care what others think
Comparison to someone in an actual tunnel (ahem) doesnt look great either. Wheres jack finding new examples of umami doing the things he hates and talking about them? Its not like shes changed at all
Not that this is indicative of anything. Town-you could have played the exact same way as far as I can tell.
Re: Jack, can we agree to first look at players we agree are scum?
wolf!me probably handles wolf!Tubba by dawdling on the line between light bussing and saying they are probably fine
I've pretty much changed my tune because of recent games, including the last MTGS game, where I feel like low posters are just the better way to go before I start looking for people that are somewhat active and giving their thoughts
Vaimes can go either way
don't really see much of a need to do much more day 2 given everything so far
like part of me is worried of hitting the town!jailor, but like in the end I don't much care if we do lose a PR because I try not to focus on mechanics anyways
I think shadow said something about Wisp trying hard not to care here, and yes that is pretty much what is happening
thats pretty how I've been trying to play my games early on as of recently
So he cant help but townread you
Knows thats the case...
And steers into it rather than just sticking you in null like pretty much everyone else did?
Were talking about literal zero attempts to figure you out. No new methods, no comparison to last game, not even asking you a single question that i can see only quoting you to encourage you to townread him basically.
Looks a little pockety, and certainly not like someone who wants to figure you out.
Like, ok
I just did a percentages post i do still have jack as more likely town than scum.
But the scum interpretations feel so much simpler to me i cannot understand the resistance here.
The following sentence is the definition of confirmation bias, but if jack is town where the **** are the opportunistic scum on him?
I guess it could be grape but it doesnt feel like scumgrape. Im pretty confident its not umami.
tom, I don't know how to answer that. Maybe the resistance is exactly what makes opportunistic scum reluctant to go after Jack.
Were lynching tubba today
Id currently lynch sloth over jack by some small amount
We'll see where he falls in relation to kj/last/vaimes after tubba flip i dont *actively* think hes a wolf with tubba
Its still a read i hold and i will defend myself if you wanna call a well thought out read on two specific things "just nitpicking anything he says"
and it usually depends on my mood or the game state
or when people decide to start talking about how I should, would, or am playing in regards to other people or my supposed "meta"
I try to always be honest with those when im a wolf too ftr.
I think the only partners i would eliminate for myself this game are jack, sloth, and shadow.
Also my read of kj towards eod is totally a scumtom move (if partners with axel)
how do you manage to talk about things you think or will do
and then just discredit them to nothing but "nitpicking" for example
this is just one example, but like this a common thing with you that makes telling if any of your thoughts are real just a pain
also in regards to you Jack statement
"townreading ZDS for effort again"
I think its more complex than, "He make posts, he good"
if you took a look at the meta on our site, you would understand why he thinks like that
do you believe because of how ZDS played last game that we should just be paranoid of him every game?
noted!
this comes down to something like, I have actively stated I want to vote them or scum read them for reasons because
something like, wolf!Tom doesn't buss unless he absolutely has to?
am I doing this right?
But
Uh
Both all and none of my thoughts are real. Because i know that nothing is absolute. Im just dealing in probabilities and incremental changes
I do think jacks overarching umami stance is the scummiest thing in this thread. That doesnt mean it cant come from town.
I dont expect active distrust of zds. I do expect wariness, or paranoia, of some kind. I expect some considerstion or change of method.
but its probably the worst thing in "his" iso for sure
Sloth is basically just that.
Jack is more "time spent" im never gonna spend that much of my energy playing against wincon
Shadow is more complicated and hard to explain to anyone but him
(I would agre but I want to see your logic)
So if we're w/w that reaction is more memorable than your grumpy dismissal.
Would also say our interactions after todays claims go differently but meh
Just have other time-sensitive things going on, and if there weren't a dichotomy here, then I'd be around more. As it stands, we're lynching one of two people, and that's fine with me.
By the time we get to the next Day phase, my time-sensitive thing should be [almost] over anyways.
— Umami needs to finish catching up;
— Sloth needs to *start* catching up;
— Killjoy promised an analysis of the Day 1 wagon(s);
— Axelrod is writing up analyses.
If you are one of the four players mentioned above and you are fine with moving on with the lynch, let it be known.
If you are another player and are preparing something good, let it be known too.
When we are down to one or two players catching-up/re-reading, we'll close the curtains. Waiting for absolutely everyone to be done means getting way past the level of boredom the town can endure.
Speaking of which, if you are bored, do something with your time. Re-read random posts. Poke people. Look for scum outside Tubba/shadow. In short, keep your mind active.