I don’t have a strong read on tubba. I don’t really get where all those tubba is town ideas come from (had that in my cell too), especially with KJ’s town flip.
KCC what the hell? Why throw a hammer down early? Especially when we have a questionable lurker finally beginning to at least twitch and at least one player talking about how they want to do an ISO on the two wagons.
What do you consider early? Because I'm strongly against the sites current meta of lynches can only happen within 10 mins of deadline. That time is the maximum, not the minimum length. If someone wanted the lynch to wait, they should have said something.
You have at least two people who say they're in the midst of catching up or taking a break and coming back. You need to explicitly be told to wait? These weren't hint enough?
If Flarg is town here, Im getting the feeling that some of you are avoiding this for **** knows why, this is an easy push for mafia
KCC's vote is just garbage, there is no attempt to actually break down anything ZDS said as of yet, so to be continued till she does
Quote from Rhand »
Flarg was so pure in our cell chat that I am sure he's town.
I invite everyone to actually click the links in ZDS's case and compare them to what ZDS is saying. There's a lot of exaggerations and smears in there.
ZDS is using busswords like "self-conscious" and "opportunistic" in places where it's totally unwarranted.
The first sentence doesn't really help us here though?
I will do the latter when I have time
I remember when I got pushed as a wolf for using the "lots of buzzwords argument", so no thanks
that was a lot of work from ZDS if he is a wolf, I think it will depend on how consistent he is
Whoever shot Grape instead of evaluating either Tom or Zion, please don't do that again
its not about who you think is a wolf, its about helping the game state, not inflating your ego
Whoever shot Grape instead of evaluating either Tom or Zion, please don't do that again
its not about who you think is a wolf, its about helping the game state, not inflating your ego
I don’t have a strong read on tubba. I don’t really get where all those tubba is town ideas come from (had that in my cell too), especially with KJ’s town flip.
Oh, thanks, but my fault, I didn't mean to ask you
@sloth (and I guess last too): Can you share anything on Tubba from chat?
You have at least two people who say they're in the midst of catching up or taking a break and coming back. You need to explicitly be told to wait? These weren't hint enough?
If sloth wanted to wait, he would have unvoted when last announced he'd hammer the next vote
If sloth wanted to wait, he would have unvoted when last announced he'd hammer the next vote
Sloth unvoting wouldn't have done anything since he was on the Zion wagon. He said he was coming back and wanted to review. You chose to ignore him and others and hammer.
So basically you wanted a flip and screw what others were doing.
I would have advocated a CFD or Zionite. I wouldn't lynch a claimed Roleblocker.
I'm not not-lynching someone for a RB claim, especially how he handled it
And yet another game of CFD an hour before deadline D1 is exactly what I wasn't waiting around for. That's how you start outing all the PRs D1. KJ did enough damage by himself not pushing Zion
I would have advocated a CFD or Zionite. I wouldn't lynch a claimed Roleblocker.
I'm not not-lynching someone for a RB claim, especially how he handled it
And yet another game of CFD an hour before deadline D1 is exactly what I wasn't waiting around for. That's how you start outing all the PRs D1. KJ did enough damage by himself not pushing Zion
Then people shouldn't have been balking. While I don't think we should go to the final hour per the mtgs meta, there should have been more consolidation or a stronger push. Anyone who didn't like either but didn't really push elsewhere I would start looking at.
Admittedly, I would have been in a weird spot. Would have tried for you, honestly.
Sloth unvoting wouldn't have done anything since he was on the Zion wagon.
So, sloth reviewing wouldn't have done anything either then. He reviews and decides to support KJ wagon -> KJ hammered. He reviews and decides to stay on Zion -> okay, I hammer kj. He reviews and decides to support a cfd -> no thanks, I hammer kj
Cases had been presented, decisions made all around. I'm not apologizing for not dragging my feet
Time to take off the gloves. FlargBlarg shows a pattern throughout the game of making opportunistic choices and avoiding direct confrontations. He is scum. Let me explain.
He almost kicked the game out of RVS by making the first serious vote, on Vaimes, for his terrible joke-plan. So far, there's nothing wrong.
Then Vaimes gives a serious answer to the accusations, followed by hurr durr I was pretending also you suck. [color=blue]This is not an ideal response; either the plan was thought through and Flarg's accusations call for a proper response, or the plan was randomly thrown in as a joke and there is no need to do anything besides point and laugh at the fool who took it seriously. [/color]
[color=red]Granted the contradiction was minor (maybe Vaimes just likes to be thorough), but in my opinion Flarg should still have pushed harder on Vaimes for that response.[/color] He didn't, using lexical confusion about the meaning of "endgame" as an excuse to jump off right away. I don't know how much sense that confusion makes since the game ends when it ends, not when we arbitrarily pick three players and go home; if Flarg's case really was based on assuming Vaimes's plan would end the game then it was completely illogical (unless Flarg knew killing everyone except the cell with him and Vaimes would end the game and had a massive slip up, but that's crude speculation at this point). What matters here is that when faced with the prospect of battling it out with a player who is making it clear they will not pull any punch, FlargBlarg ran away. That's Exhibit #1 of FlargBlarg avoiding confrontation.[/color]
What happened here is that Vaimes proposed a plan to pick one cellblock and kill everyone else and let that cellblock endgame. Flarg mistook “endgame” for the state of the game when it has ended, while Vaimes meant endgame to be the final 3 players battling it out in final 3.
[color=blue] ZDS is talking about Vaimes here. This is Vaimes’ post:
I don't really like that post. It's pretty empty analysis, given I jokingly suggested killing everyone except me, basically. I'm not gonna volunteer to endgame and then die.
He literally says he was joking. And he doesn’t like Flarg for making a deal out of it because he was joking. ZDS saying that all Vaimes could possibly have as a reaction is laugh at Flarg for taking it seriously, while he now says Flarg is scum. Town!ZDS would like Vaimes’ conclusion of not liking Flarg’s post.[/color]
[color=red] This whole paragraph starts with “Granted…” and “in my opinion…”
The conclusions ZDS is making here are way too big for something he doesn’t think is that big of a deal.
He says Flarg is “making an excuse” when he realizes that his definition of endgame is different, restating that Flarg shouldn’t have jumped off Vaimes after Vaimes said it was a joke.
Flarg literally called Vaimes town in the unvote post. ZDS doesn’t even consider that that is what Flarg actually concluded, he calls it “running away” from confrontation.
It’s all one big smear.[/color]
After that he does nothing relevant for a while, then comes back with a series of posts that end with him voting Zionite : #270, #275 and #280 (there are also unrelated posts inbetween that I don't think are relevant either way). In a vacuum and from a distance, these posts are fine: Flarg notices the game overall had a bad content ratio, notices two players in particular with a bad content ratio, and votes one of them.
However, there's a couple things I want to point out about that vote.
First, Zionite was already attracting attention. Rhand voted then attacked him in #110 and #112, tom defended him in #128 and #136, Grapefruit21 mentionned town-reading him in #162 Slothful voted him in #178, Jackrito weakly barned Slothful in #204, Lastwhisper weakly defended him in #209 (I hope I didn't miss anything). By the time FlargBlarg joined the wagon, Zionite was already a controversial figure.
Now, had Flarg merely barned or repeated the arguments already made by Rhand and Slothful, I would have seen nothing wrong with his voted. But here comes the second thing I want to point out: he didn't. Instead he made an extremely weak argument about Zionite not finding scum among the then-active players (at a time when there weren't that many of them, and it therefore wouldn't be weird to town-read or null-read them all; also keep that argument in mind, we will come back to it later). The addition of that weak argument shows self-consciousness about joining a wagon, ironically making it look even more like an opportunistic, rather than natural, vote. That's Exhibit #1 of FlargBlarg taking an opportunistic stance.
Ok, on re-read I think the ones that are responsible for the feeling are KJ and Zion.
KJ does seem genuinely excited and hyper so it might be NAI. To the thread, is KJ usually more directly productive, or is this kind of play typical of them?
Zion... less so. He complains about wanting stuff to do and betting there's Scum in the inactives, but he doesn't do anything other than kind of idly complain they're not here. Why not hunt in the actives? Surely he can't townread every active player. Strikes me more as Scum unwilling to start a wagon of their own and trying to shadecast "the inactives" so that they have broad options to move later.
ZDS calls this “an extremely weak argument”, but that’s not what it is. Flarg makes a good argument for a D1 vote here: not engaging active players IS suspect.
Also bear in mind that ZDS is also “reading” me as scum. He surely can’t be ok with someone merely repeating my arguments to jump on a wagon then?
ZDS throws in words that give scum pings like “self-conscious” and “opportunistic”, but it’s all just words.
Earlier. Like a week ago. I really appreciate Shadow's games because he puts slightly more aggressive deadlines. We should have been to 2-3 wagons a week before deadline. Or someone should have been hardpushing someone else if those two wagons were not satisfactory. Apart from this website actively *****ting lag to even make a post here (thanks ads and curse. Yes I have an adblocker), people balk too long.
And somehow, I don't feel worse about my decision
Do you think I have that much influence on the game?
If Flarg is town here, Im getting the feeling that some of you are avoiding this for **** knows why, this is an easy push for mafia
KCC's vote is just garbage, there is no attempt to actually break down anything ZDS said as of yet, so to be continued till she does
Quote from Rhand »
Flarg was so pure in our cell chat that I am sure he's town.
I invite everyone to actually click the links in ZDS's case and compare them to what ZDS is saying. There's a lot of exaggerations and smears in there.
ZDS is using busswords like "self-conscious" and "opportunistic" in places where it's totally unwarranted.
The first sentence doesn't really help us here though?
I will do the latter when I have time
I remember when I got pushed as a wolf for using the "lots of buzzwords argument", so no thanks
that was a lot of work from ZDS if he is a wolf, I think it will depend on how consistent he is
vote: Rhand
I am going here
Sloth can yell at me if he wants
This is a weird reaction.
Why doesn't his cell behavior help? You could ask Vaimes to weigh in instead of shading me for telling this?
Too busy to go into an in-depth response right now, but love how you're both arguing about what I could have done or what I would have achieved if the hammer hadn't happened. Pretty sure I already said what my definite intent was when I came back:
Just for the record, even though it might bite me in the ass in a minute, Killjoy, ffs, I thought you were Town.
The only thing that threw me off and make me doubt wasn't Tom, it was that you wouldn't self-pres.
I was literally on my way back to make an argument about keeping you around cause I decided even though not self-presing made NO sense as Town, it made even LESS sense as scum.
Point being, Jesus Christ, man. Self-pres next time.
By this point, KJ had to be town.
I already talked yesterDay how Tom's case was crap, and I will talk more about how I believe he made the wagon happen anyway despite this, later.
So that left only his refusal to self-pres making me waffle, but then I realized that that definitely could not be a scum move in this circumstances, and could only come from a really REALLY confused but well-intentioned town.
My plan was to make a case for it to the rest of the players, and try to convince them to move to Z.
Failing that, (and this is the part where everyone just stares at me in disbelief) I was going to propose we CFD Flarg (ideally Tom, but no way I was convincing anyone to follow me in that amount of time).
Yep, that's right: I shot down CFD all Day, only to turn around and advocate it last minute.
KCC, how the hell did you go from "I'm not ready for last to speed lynch, but I'm comfortable moving my vote there" and "KJ claiming RB isn't a good reason to lunch him, except his approach to the day makes no sense as a power role" to hammering?
Btw, answer this.
This is different than a "why did you hammer?" question, so the previous answers you gave on the subject don't fit.
It's a "how did you hammer?"
At first glance, Dork's case isn't great. I'll take a deep dive when I have more time later.
Earlier. Like a week ago. I really appreciate Shadow's games because he puts slightly more aggressive deadlines. We should have been to 2-3 wagons a week before deadline. Or someone should have been hardpushing someone else if those two wagons were not satisfactory.
I don't think the wagons were bad, I think we just ended up on the wrong one
Earlier. Like a week ago. I really appreciate Shadow's games because he puts slightly more aggressive deadlines. We should have been to 2-3 wagons a week before deadline. Or someone should have been hardpushing someone else if those two wagons were not satisfactory.
I don't think the wagons were bad, I think we just ended up on the wrong one
I don't think the wagons were bad, I think we just ended up on the wrong one
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
I don't think the wagons were bad, I think we just ended up on the wrong one
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
My plan was to make a case for it to the rest of the players, and try to convince them to move to Z.
Failing that, (and this is the part where everyone just stares at me in disbelief) I was going to propose we CFD Flarg (ideally Tom, but no way I was convincing anyone to follow me in that amount of time).
Yep, that's right: I shot down CFD all Day, only to turn around and advocate it last minute.
Except I didn't get to do that, did I, KC?
I considered making a push back to Zi too, but that's not what I ultimately decided. You making that push wouldn't have mattered, once I settled on my kj read, the Zion wagon was done.
And now flarg is among my top town reads, so I'm not sad at that missed opportunity either
BTW, answer this.
This is different than a "why did you hammer?" question, so the previous answers you gave on the subject don't fit.
It's a "how did you hammer?"
What changed is I talked to him. And I thought he was being insincere and evasive. Between that and reflecting on everything else, I reached a point where I was going to feel worse if he was scum and I let him go than if he was town and mislynched.
I wouldn't have been thrilled if lw hammered after Rhands vote, but then KJ had a chance to get his final thoughts down, I decided I wasn't going to push back off KJ, and at that point it was just delaying the inevitable
I made a point to state it was null because people kept incorrectly stating it was town, which they kept doing because I was attacking the case. I don't understand what's difficult to get about that. Of course I'm going to attack a baseless case when I'm leading a wagon on the other guy. KJ was super hard to read because he was erratic and hyper, which is both why the case on him was bad and why I nulled him - everything he did was NAI.
I feel like you mentioning I was shielded by mafia theory is conceding something major. Your case is that I'm so versed in mafia theory that I can use it to shield everything I do as Scum, yet so oblivious that I don't see that the townreads on me are evaporating for it? It relies on me both being brilliant and incredibly stupid at the same time. The obvious, simple answer is that I kept pushing despite having townreads go away on me because I genuinely believed in what I was pushing and didn't give a ***** about the reads, because my job is to lynch Scum, not worry about how townread I am.
I was second on Zion, at least second of anyone who held their vote on him. Go read back.
1) You didn't defend Killjoy. You didn't try to save him. Why attack the theory behind a case if you are not going to defend the affected player? Did you do it purely out of principle?
Moreover you didn't push the competing wagon that you were supposedly leading (by the way why aren't you responding to that?). In fact before that you plainly said you were ready to jump on a non-Zionite wagon.
2) That's not my point, but maybe I wasn't clear. You loving mafia theory like you could put a ring on it doesn't mean you are well versed in it, at least depending on how you define "well versed". You certainly have a lot of ideas and beliefs running in your mind about how mafia should be played and how players should be attacked, rigid as these ideas may be. That doesn't make you brilliant or stupid, it only means you enjoy the theoretical side of mafia.
My point is that by attacking the theory behind the case you did not actually put your neck out there. You made reasonable posts anybody could have written regardless of alignment, and despite how many of these posts there were you had no impact on the KJ wagon.
(To have such an impact you would have had to either defend KJ or push an alternative, and you did neither, unless the CFD thing was your idea of an alternative, and even then you did little to push it.)
3) Whatever, I'm not attacking you over your positioning on the Zionite wagon anyway. The important thing is you were far from the first to find Zionite scummy.
Re Rhand's #1481 and #1482
1) If you read my case as a PBPA you read it wrong. The posts I linked to are instances of the phenomenons I observed, they are meant for illustrative purposes.
2) Why so furious? Fine, I won't ask why you need to be on the lynchwagon. I hate #1356 (yes, "hate") because no matter how "pure" a player is this has no obvious implication on whether they are right. If you think otherwise, walk me through it.
Re Rhand's #1518
I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with bbcode :-p.
1) You are not in my head, you don't know if I would "like Vaimes’ conclusion of not liking Flarg’s post". As a matter of fact I don't, it's an overreaction and an empty OMGUS. Why did you not quote Vaimes's previous post right above, the one where he properly defended himself (instead of pointing and laughing)?
2) I maintain Vaimes's reaction was bad and warranted going harder after him instead of backing off.
3) How is it relevant whether I'm reading you as scum? What does that have to do with anything? Get over yourself.
And "He surely can’t be ok with someone merely repeating my arguments to jump on a wagon then?" directly contradicts my argument (as well as my saying "I wouldn't have attacked [FlargBlarg] for mindlessly wagonning Zionite" in #1479, but it was after the case so maybe it wasn't taken into account). I don't care when people repeat arguments or when they vote because they agree with a case (to clarify my stance on this, it only becomes a problem if there's a pattern of such votes on town). Are you confused?
@Slothful Are you sure you were shot last Night, or are you assuming they did because you are so used to being the N1 kill? This is relevant to figuring out who the scum might not want us to look at.
So basically you wanted a flip and screw what others were doing.
Is that scum play rather than (arguably) sloppy play, and if so why? @People attacking KCC for her hammer Same question as above.
---
KCC defended Flarg in your Night chat with similar arguments about the way he sacrificed his townie points. The similarity gets me rising an eyebrow. Maybe she will post them herself (@KCC), if anything else they are worth seeing and discussing regardless of how my eyebrows are positioned.
I don't think the wagons were bad, I think we just ended up on the wrong one
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
Zi isn't the only scum. If the case wasn't enough Yesterday, it's not going to be magically more effective now with him not here to respond to anything. That's a waste of time
...so the better wagon isn't the wagon you were plenty confident in D1 and have made cases about....its the one for whom you haven't even read yet.
I meant zds is better than flarg. And I read enough of his push over Night to like this vote. Once I read his thread version, if it's better, I'll unvote, but from rhands reaction, it doesn't sound like it is
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
Zi isn't the only scum. If the case wasn't enough Yesterday, it's not going to be magically more effective now with him not here to respond to anything. That's a waste of time
...so the better wagon isn't the wagon you were plenty confident in D1 and have made cases about....its the one for whom you haven't even read yet.
I meant zds is better than flarg. And I read enough of his push over Night to like this vote. Once I read his thread version, if it's better, I'll unvote, but from rhands reaction, it doesn't sound like it is
I am talking at this moment. I was also on KJ incorrectly. If I understand you correctly, you were stating that we had it, and just went the wrong way. But then you came in voting ZDS, because Zion might not be around the whole time.
What did you talk about last night that makes you want to vote ZDS over Zionite?
Eh why are you ignoring that she had a chat with ZDS in her cell?
Because I am not privy to that information. All I can judge is what I have in front of me which is her admitting she hasn't read what he's posted here but she's gonna vote him anyway.
I just don't get why we are assuming that ZDS is malicious at this point? And not just pushing what he believes?
@KCC
So u think Zion is a wolf but like he's not gunna be here, so you don't want to waste ur vote, ok? But like I don't get why you are voting ZDS, it's inconsistent
Why do you like Flarg? And why are you voting a CW because you don't like the other wagon?
Jack
Sloth
YWM
tom
Zion
LW
Flarg
Tubba
Rhand
ZDS
Vaimes
KCC
Is what my brain looks like. Town on top, wolves on bottom.
Despite the numbers, Tubba is dead center for me. Rhand who I haven't much is lower mostly because I just don't feel him this game, and it bothers me a bit. I haven't paid much attention to posts overall, but every recent post I have seen, I haven't been a huge fan of.
I also stand by my tom comment from yesterday. Only way I drop him lower is if ZIon flips wolf.
I like lists like this. It forced people to put people objectively higher or lower than others.
If I understand you correctly, you were stating that we had it, and just went the wrong way. But then you came in voting ZDS, because Zion might not be around the whole time.
What did you talk about last night that makes you want to vote ZDS over Zionite?
I'm a little more sure on Zi atm, and I'd be pushing there if he was here. As for chat, I'll go through that when I go over his in thread case, compare and contrast
I made a point to state it was null because people kept incorrectly stating it was town, which they kept doing because I was attacking the case. I don't understand what's difficult to get about that. Of course I'm going to attack a baseless case when I'm leading a wagon on the other guy. KJ was super hard to read because he was erratic and hyper, which is both why the case on him was bad and why I nulled him - everything he did was NAI.
I feel like you mentioning I was shielded by mafia theory is conceding something major. Your case is that I'm so versed in mafia theory that I can use it to shield everything I do as Scum, yet so oblivious that I don't see that the townreads on me are evaporating for it? It relies on me both being brilliant and incredibly stupid at the same time. The obvious, simple answer is that I kept pushing despite having townreads go away on me because I genuinely believed in what I was pushing and didn't give a ***** about the reads, because my job is to lynch Scum, not worry about how townread I am.
I was second on Zion, at least second of anyone who held their vote on him. Go read back.
1) You didn't defend Killjoy. You didn't try to save him. Why attack the theory behind a case if you are not going to defend the affected player? Did you do it purely out of principle?
Moreover you didn't push the competing wagon that you were supposedly leading (by the way why aren't you responding to that?). In fact before that you plainly said you were ready to jump on a non-Zionite wagon.
2) That's not my point, but maybe I wasn't clear. You loving mafia theory like you could put a ring on it doesn't mean you are well versed in it, at least depending on how you define "well versed". You certainly have a lot of ideas and beliefs running in your mind about how mafia should be played and how players should be attacked, rigid as these ideas may be. That doesn't make you brilliant or stupid, it only means you enjoy the theoretical side of mafia.
My point is that by attacking the theory behind the case you did not actually put your neck out there. You made reasonable posts anybody could have written regardless of alignment, and despite how many of these posts there were you had no impact on the KJ wagon.
(To have such an impact you would have had to either defend KJ or push an alternative, and you did neither, unless the CFD thing was your idea of an alternative, and even then you did little to push it.)
3) Whatever, I'm not attacking you over your positioning on the Zionite wagon anyway. The important thing is you were far from the first to find Zionite scummy.
I feel like a broken record at this point - I didn't want to defend him because I had him at null. I attacked the theory because I think lynching players off of meta is both inaccurate and hard to work off of on D2. (and note how little we got in reads from it - who's being attacked NOW for KJ's mislynch?) I didn't push harder on Zion because he didn't do anything more I wanted to add to the case and I wanted to see a counterwagon form for wagon analysis. You can argue I should've rah-rah'd and restated stuff, but eh, I don't like spamming the thread like that.
Your point is that making reasonable posts makes me scum? And that doing it- while players are attacking me for it and renouncing their townreads- isn't sticking my neck out? Yeah, it didn't make an impact, it didn't make an impact because of hardheadedness and ego, not because I didn't try. I led the horses to water, but it's not my fault they didn't drink.
You're right, you're just discrediting me despite the fact that I was one of the first to do something and put a vote down.
And before you start digging, the reason I am asking you specifically is that you mentioned me once in your last 60 posts, and it was questioning Vaimes hand waiving of my point.
I find it interesting how much hate ZDS is getting considering half of that is my read as well, he just took the ball and ran with it adding his own flavour, which imo did more harm then good to his case, because it is over the top. I find this most worrying off KCC who was in our cell and should know this.
Do you want to take half, and I'll tackle the other?
I meant this part. The **** is this whirlwind of stuff?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
i already did the first half, I’ll post it when I’m at my laptop
You have at least two people who say they're in the midst of catching up or taking a break and coming back. You need to explicitly be told to wait? These weren't hint enough?
KCC's vote is just garbage, there is no attempt to actually break down anything ZDS said as of yet, so to be continued till she does
The first sentence doesn't really help us here though?
I will do the latter when I have time
I remember when I got pushed as a wolf for using the "lots of buzzwords argument", so no thanks
that was a lot of work from ZDS if he is a wolf, I think it will depend on how consistent he is
vote: Rhand
I am going here
Sloth can yell at me if he wants
its not about who you think is a wolf, its about helping the game state, not inflating your ego
*raises eyebrow*
The GJ way path to no lynching:
@sloth (and I guess last too): Can you share anything on Tubba from chat?
Up to where? I can do the rest, but I don't want to waste time recasing bits
If sloth wanted to wait, he would have unvoted when last announced he'd hammer the next vote
Gj could catch up just as well over Night
Not in thread, I broke down plenty all Night
I would have advocated a CFD or Zionite. I wouldn't lynch a claimed Roleblocker.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Sloth unvoting wouldn't have done anything since he was on the Zion wagon. He said he was coming back and wanted to review. You chose to ignore him and others and hammer.
So basically you wanted a flip and screw what others were doing.
I'm not not-lynching someone for a RB claim, especially how he handled it
And yet another game of CFD an hour before deadline D1 is exactly what I wasn't waiting around for. That's how you start outing all the PRs D1. KJ did enough damage by himself not pushing Zion
Then people shouldn't have been balking. While I don't think we should go to the final hour per the mtgs meta, there should have been more consolidation or a stronger push. Anyone who didn't like either but didn't really push elsewhere I would start looking at.
Admittedly, I would have been in a weird spot. Would have tried for you, honestly.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
So, sloth reviewing wouldn't have done anything either then. He reviews and decides to support KJ wagon -> KJ hammered. He reviews and decides to stay on Zion -> okay, I hammer kj. He reviews and decides to support a cfd -> no thanks, I hammer kj
Cases had been presented, decisions made all around. I'm not apologizing for not dragging my feet
Like... a majority?
And somehow, I don't feel worse about my decision
What happened here is that Vaimes proposed a plan to pick one cellblock and kill everyone else and let that cellblock endgame. Flarg mistook “endgame” for the state of the game when it has ended, while Vaimes meant endgame to be the final 3 players battling it out in final 3.
[color=blue] ZDS is talking about Vaimes here. This is Vaimes’ post:
He literally says he was joking. And he doesn’t like Flarg for making a deal out of it because he was joking. ZDS saying that all Vaimes could possibly have as a reaction is laugh at Flarg for taking it seriously, while he now says Flarg is scum. Town!ZDS would like Vaimes’ conclusion of not liking Flarg’s post.[/color]
[color=red] This whole paragraph starts with “Granted…” and “in my opinion…”
The conclusions ZDS is making here are way too big for something he doesn’t think is that big of a deal.
He says Flarg is “making an excuse” when he realizes that his definition of endgame is different, restating that Flarg shouldn’t have jumped off Vaimes after Vaimes said it was a joke.
Flarg literally called Vaimes town in the unvote post. ZDS doesn’t even consider that that is what Flarg actually concluded, he calls it “running away” from confrontation.
It’s all one big smear.[/color]
This is the post where Flarg talks about Zionite:
ZDS calls this “an extremely weak argument”, but that’s not what it is. Flarg makes a good argument for a D1 vote here: not engaging active players IS suspect.
Also bear in mind that ZDS is also “reading” me as scum. He surely can’t be ok with someone merely repeating my arguments to jump on a wagon then?
ZDS throws in words that give scum pings like “self-conscious” and “opportunistic”, but it’s all just words.
Earlier. Like a week ago. I really appreciate Shadow's games because he puts slightly more aggressive deadlines. We should have been to 2-3 wagons a week before deadline. Or someone should have been hardpushing someone else if those two wagons were not satisfactory. Apart from this website actively *****ting lag to even make a post here (thanks ads and curse. Yes I have an adblocker), people balk too long.
Do you think I have that much influence on the game?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Anyways @KCC that's what I've got so far.
This is a weird reaction.
Why doesn't his cell behavior help? You could ask Vaimes to weigh in instead of shading me for telling this?
By this point, KJ had to be town.
I already talked yesterDay how Tom's case was crap, and I will talk more about how I believe he made the wagon happen anyway despite this, later.
So that left only his refusal to self-pres making me waffle, but then I realized that that definitely could not be a scum move in this circumstances, and could only come from a really REALLY confused but well-intentioned town.
My plan was to make a case for it to the rest of the players, and try to convince them to move to Z.
Failing that, (and this is the part where everyone just stares at me in disbelief) I was going to propose we CFD Flarg (ideally Tom, but no way I was convincing anyone to follow me in that amount of time).
Yep, that's right: I shot down CFD all Day, only to turn around and advocate it last minute.
Except I didn't get to do that, did I, KC?
Btw, answer this.
This is different than a "why did you hammer?" question, so the previous answers you gave on the subject don't fit.
It's a "how did you hammer?"
At first glance, Dork's case isn't great. I'll take a deep dive when I have more time later.
@Tom, hello
If you don't think it had a chance, why would you bother?
Your vote doesn't seem to suggest you believe what you are saying.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
...so the better wagon isn't the wagon you were plenty confident in D1 and have made cases about....its the one for whom you haven't even read yet.
Eh why are you ignoring that she had a chat with ZDS in her cell?
I'm not really shading you, but can we talk about what you liked about Flarg?
I considered making a push back to Zi too, but that's not what I ultimately decided. You making that push wouldn't have mattered, once I settled on my kj read, the Zion wagon was done.
And now flarg is among my top town reads, so I'm not sad at that missed opportunity either
What changed is I talked to him. And I thought he was being insincere and evasive. Between that and reflecting on everything else, I reached a point where I was going to feel worse if he was scum and I let him go than if he was town and mislynched.
I wouldn't have been thrilled if lw hammered after Rhands vote, but then KJ had a chance to get his final thoughts down, I decided I wasn't going to push back off KJ, and at that point it was just delaying the inevitable
Why?
Re #1480
1) You didn't defend Killjoy. You didn't try to save him. Why attack the theory behind a case if you are not going to defend the affected player? Did you do it purely out of principle?
Moreover you didn't push the competing wagon that you were supposedly leading (by the way why aren't you responding to that?). In fact before that you plainly said you were ready to jump on a non-Zionite wagon.
2) That's not my point, but maybe I wasn't clear. You loving mafia theory like you could put a ring on it doesn't mean you are well versed in it, at least depending on how you define "well versed". You certainly have a lot of ideas and beliefs running in your mind about how mafia should be played and how players should be attacked, rigid as these ideas may be. That doesn't make you brilliant or stupid, it only means you enjoy the theoretical side of mafia.
My point is that by attacking the theory behind the case you did not actually put your neck out there. You made reasonable posts anybody could have written regardless of alignment, and despite how many of these posts there were you had no impact on the KJ wagon.
(To have such an impact you would have had to either defend KJ or push an alternative, and you did neither, unless the CFD thing was your idea of an alternative, and even then you did little to push it.)
3) Whatever, I'm not attacking you over your positioning on the Zionite wagon anyway. The important thing is you were far from the first to find Zionite scummy.
Re Rhand's #1481 and #1482
1) If you read my case as a PBPA you read it wrong. The posts I linked to are instances of the phenomenons I observed, they are meant for illustrative purposes.
2) Why so furious? Fine, I won't ask why you need to be on the lynchwagon. I hate #1356 (yes, "hate") because no matter how "pure" a player is this has no obvious implication on whether they are right. If you think otherwise, walk me through it.
Re Rhand's #1518
I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with bbcode :-p.
1) You are not in my head, you don't know if I would "like Vaimes’ conclusion of not liking Flarg’s post". As a matter of fact I don't, it's an overreaction and an empty OMGUS. Why did you not quote Vaimes's previous post right above, the one where he properly defended himself (instead of pointing and laughing)?
2) I maintain Vaimes's reaction was bad and warranted going harder after him instead of backing off.
3) How is it relevant whether I'm reading you as scum? What does that have to do with anything? Get over yourself.
And "He surely can’t be ok with someone merely repeating my arguments to jump on a wagon then?" directly contradicts my argument (as well as my saying "I wouldn't have attacked [FlargBlarg] for mindlessly wagonning Zionite" in #1479, but it was after the case so maybe it wasn't taken into account). I don't care when people repeat arguments or when they vote because they agree with a case (to clarify my stance on this, it only becomes a problem if there's a pattern of such votes on town). Are you confused?
@Slothful Are you sure you were shot last Night, or are you assuming they did because you are so used to being the N1 kill? This is relevant to figuring out who the scum might not want us to look at.
Re YWF's #1513
Is that scum play rather than (arguably) sloppy play, and if so why?
@People attacking KCC for her hammer Same question as above.
---
KCC defended Flarg in your Night chat with similar arguments about the way he sacrificed his townie points. The similarity gets me rising an eyebrow. Maybe she will post them herself (@KCC), if anything else they are worth seeing and discussing regardless of how my eyebrows are positioned.
Why are you getting involved in their conversation?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Zi isn't the only scum. If the case wasn't enough Yesterday, it's not going to be magically more effective now with him not here to respond to anything. That's a waste of time
I meant zds is better than flarg. And I read enough of his push over Night to like this vote. Once I read his thread version, if it's better, I'll unvote, but from rhands reaction, it doesn't sound like it is
I am talking at this moment. I was also on KJ incorrectly. If I understand you correctly, you were stating that we had it, and just went the wrong way. But then you came in voting ZDS, because Zion might not be around the whole time.
What did you talk about last night that makes you want to vote ZDS over Zionite?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Because I am not privy to that information. All I can judge is what I have in front of me which is her admitting she hasn't read what he's posted here but she's gonna vote him anyway.
It's 'take a closer look at this player' play.
It was a wagon that mislynched a town PR. Losing Town PRs is bad for town.
@KCC
So u think Zion is a wolf but like he's not gunna be here, so you don't want to waste ur vote, ok? But like I don't get why you are voting ZDS, it's inconsistent
Why do you like Flarg? And why are you voting a CW because you don't like the other wagon?
Like is this just gunna be a repeat of yesterday?
Jack
Sloth
YWM
tom
Zion
LW
Flarg
Tubba
Rhand
ZDS
Vaimes
KCC
Is what my brain looks like. Town on top, wolves on bottom.
Despite the numbers, Tubba is dead center for me. Rhand who I haven't much is lower mostly because I just don't feel him this game, and it bothers me a bit. I haven't paid much attention to posts overall, but every recent post I have seen, I haven't been a huge fan of.
I also stand by my tom comment from yesterday. Only way I drop him lower is if ZIon flips wolf.
I like lists like this. It forced people to put people objectively higher or lower than others.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Basically, do you wolf read ZDS? And if so, why?
I'll get there. No way I'm diving into that mess on my phone
And I'm a little excited, from the end of zdss post, it sounds like Rhand is seriously mindmelding me
Yes, for all the reasons in the post you quoted
I'm a little more sure on Zi atm, and I'd be pushing there if he was here. As for chat, I'll go through that when I go over his in thread case, compare and contrast
Bye!
I feel like a broken record at this point - I didn't want to defend him because I had him at null. I attacked the theory because I think lynching players off of meta is both inaccurate and hard to work off of on D2. (and note how little we got in reads from it - who's being attacked NOW for KJ's mislynch?) I didn't push harder on Zion because he didn't do anything more I wanted to add to the case and I wanted to see a counterwagon form for wagon analysis. You can argue I should've rah-rah'd and restated stuff, but eh, I don't like spamming the thread like that.
Your point is that making reasonable posts makes me scum? And that doing it- while players are attacking me for it and renouncing their townreads- isn't sticking my neck out? Yeah, it didn't make an impact, it didn't make an impact because of hardheadedness and ego, not because I didn't try. I led the horses to water, but it's not my fault they didn't drink.
You're right, you're just discrediting me despite the fact that I was one of the first to do something and put a vote down.
Remember when I said my gut says Flarg is probably town, I am going back to that for now
So you have no read on me, but are ok with me as a wagon?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I never said I had no read on you?
Why do you find me wolfy then?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
ZeDorkSlipeur (3): Vaimes, Rhand, KittyCupCake
FlargBlarg (2): Jackrito, ZeDorkSlipeur
Gentleman Johnny (1): Tomsloger
KittyCupCake (1): Gentleman Johnny
Rhand (1): Lastwhisper
Not Voting (5): FlargBlarg, Tubba Fett, Zionite, Slothful, YWFMLF
Zionite is V/LA until 3/10
Vaimes is V/LA until 3/8
Gentleman Johnny is V/LA weekends
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is March 14th at 2000 MST.
How much weight do you normally give meta reads? How much would you let it influence a decision or guide your hunting?
Partly for three-way wagons, partly because I hated 1530.
I don't care much for ZDS' case but I like what it's doing.
Last, tell me how you feel about things when you're back into caring mode.