This carousel of Last yells at people to scumread me > people scumread me > Last gets excited > someone says I’m town > Last is like wtf why > pressure lessens > Last sulks.
It’s happened like four or five times this game.
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dk, how about you explain to me nice and slow why you, or anyone, should care when I picked my targets? I don’t get the relevance. What do you want, time stamps? I ran through the reasons I picked who I picked, and people are sick of me going on and on about my role.
You're saying that Vaimes would need to die and be confirmed town before you stopped tunneling him. Ok, whatever.
I mean if he stays on this level of play? Like wtf, I've played 6 games with vaimes, he was wolf like 3 times, town twice, and now this game, the plays are drastically different
I am all ears, but I don't see it
Your 6 games with me vs. fulcrum’s 250 with me: fight!
I change my mind easily re: votes if I have no strong scumreads. If thread flow wanted to lunch someone and I was here to change my vote, I would have. It seems like some think I was dead-ser on a No Lunch and wouldn’t have budged, I don’t know where that assumption is coming from.
do you think its an unfair assumption? You left your vote on "no lynch"
I also kinda think mechanics are getting in the way of me being able to have like. Normal reads I feel good about. Super bleh.
how many of your reads are mechanical?
I count 5 completely unclaimed, and 6 whos claims/roles dont effect my read in any meaningful way.
Like... sure vezok/dkings/kcc/asta. Who else?
When I have said a million times that I had no time to re-evaluate my vote? Uh, yeah. Plopping my vote on Axel or Nacho would not have changed anything.
I mean in general, mechanics heavy games kinda makes us focus more on roles than just playing mafia. Which, you know, is one of the reasons the topic of No Lunch came up.
I'm really enjoying watching Wisp tunnel someone for playing like he used to (inconsistent, fluffy, and wild mechanics plays [<3 you Wisp]). It's petty but very cathartic.
Still definitely a part of me that think it makes him scum, but I've decided not to listen to that.
Anyway I think Vaimes is >rand to be town but not by much. I'm not married to the read but there is enough there (activity, tone, and lack of worrying ties) that he's not my top priority. I'm going to actually try to get some digging and actually figure out what I think rather than having a mass of town reads and shrugs.
Secondly this can all be solved if his Mason buddy claims
I'm not pushing suspicion on him, I just want his partner to claim, because like any other uninformed player, I get paranoid, and I think it is hands down the correct play to do, once a mason claims
If you are busy fine, but don't shade that fact that we no lynched after 3 weeks
Look, there is no reason for my partner to claim today as I'm king and unless you want to vig me, it's to late for today to express suspicion. Focus on other stuff. It's not that much of a mystery either way. We'll probably claim tomorrow, but there is literally no reason for it to happen today.
And regarding the whole Vaimes thing, I'm kinda falling in favour of town him. I'd rather focus on Rhand a bit.
Oh, right, Proph is in this game too. He can die I guess?
I might iso Keldeo, right now he's just kind of here and posting a bunch and I think he has villagery tone but Mindreaver was pretty bad and Keldeo fits on a lot of teams
I mean, with the roles we have, I'm also expecting more information to come out and clear/catch people.
Hum. Kind of have the opposite opinion and hoping we hit a wolf soon and can tie them to their partners, don't super want to speculate about why out loud though.
@Grape
What about the content of his posts? can you talk about them?
I pretty strongly disagree on you not ever being wild mechanically, but you've improved pretty drastically. But to be honest in my eyes you're still a bit wild (repeated calls that the second mason should claim for instance). Doesn't make you wrong, just makes me really conservative when it comes to roles.
As for Vaimes I can't point to anything particular in his content, but I haven't been overly pinged by anything he's done. I guess in that sense it's similar to his GoT play but being vaguely similar to a scum game by not pinging me isn't enough for me to want to target him first.
I forgot to add that I'm frustrated by lack of useful stuff too. I'm stuck in a place where I just have a mass of town leans and a mushy mass of other players. And I'm just not making the time to figure it out. Trying to kick myself into gear but I just don't have it right now.
A mason claim is one half of a whole, so his partner not claiming with him, is like a cop or vigi not claiming or refusing to claim at like L2 or L1, it's just mind blowinly dumb to me
Nacho, iirc you said you thought KCC's busdriving was only during the summer, but once you realized she got it once it became summer and could use them anytime even if we lynched, did that change your thoughts on the mechanical benefit from not lynching? It didn't seem to to me.
that was dkings, who nacho then voted
No, I think it was both KCC and dk? What I mean is that according to her claim, KCC would still have been able to bus drive even if we had lynched someone and the season changed to spring, but Nacho didn't seem to know that at first, so I wanted to know how his opinion changed after he learned.
Also, tom, it doesn't matter that much given where my thoughts are but I'd still like to know what you meant by "the conversation dkings and Axel would have had" about you.
I don't really follow any of this discussion about what Vaimes was trying to do by targeting Vezok. Both the idea that he could have somehow infiltrated or broken up a mason chat if mafia and the idea that he could have become a masonizer if he's town and Vezok gave up her ability seem a little bit silly to me. I was kind of wondering how you could be a mason without an ability to give up, but it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to trade a passive like that.
I also just put the pieces together on Vaimes' cryptic "I want to know what KCC's role does, but not by lynching her, she needs to survive until the night" thing on day 1. So that's another point to the fact that he's not lying, although that doesn't move the needle to me.
Keldeo does not appear to have had anything to say about me for the first 1000+ post of the game. All his quick impressions and hot takes are on other people.
I subbed in at about 1100 posts in, so I'm not really sure what you mean here?
re: other parts of this post, I didn't like how you approached talking about KCC and my slot, it felt like you weren't actually looking into what you were saying you were (wrt that post where you said you wanted to refresh yourself on what you disliked on KCC but then talked about fulcrum and dipped), and then were shading her claim without actually committing to mafiareading her.
The "I want people to talk about Axelrod" post was basically "villagers might say stuff in response to this question that could spew themselves not w/w with Axel" - an attempt to judge how people were reading you without biasing their input by revealing my own SR of you. And then KJ expressed part of what I didn't like about you pretty concisely.
This is all to say I wasn't barning KJ, I was scumreading you before it was cool
Your claim and the fact that now I'm generally liking your process better today has kind of eclipsed that to me.
I'm actually wondering, you voted not to lynch at the end mostly because you wanted to get your ability off, right? How does that interact with your desire to get more flips/hard info to help your solving?
I initially thought Axel analyzing people who voted him weird and more defensive than proactive, but uh. I dunno, that Keldeo thing is a shiny looking fruit to me. I dunno what it is, but some of Keldeo's plays feel kind of similar to the mafia game we were just in where he was scum. Could just be paranoia, but it's not nothing IMO.
Could you talk some about what you find similar between the Wonka game and this game? Even if you're not sure, it's helpful to know more about your process and what you're thinking about in order to read you.
Town reads: 0-1 scum
fulcrum
Asta
vezokpiraka
tomsloger
Nachomamma8
Vaimes
Light town reads: 0-2 scum
Killjoy
Silvercrys3467
Lastwhisper
Grapefruit21*
Role brigade: 1-2 scum
dkingsland967
Prophylaxis
Axelrod
KittyCupCake
Leaves: 1-2 scum
Rhand
Keldeo
I think Vaimes' usage and attitude around his role are town, done looking there. Tom's clearly trying to solve, Nacho as well. Asta's newbtown. Vezok is a mason.
Silver, Lastwhisper and Killjoy are all pushing against the grain, probably town.
Game feels p easy. Kill Rhand and Keldeo, probably hit scum, go from there.
Hey fulcrum, how firm are you now on Axel's role not possibly being town with your role? It feels like he's not a main focus for you right now, which is fine but I don't 100% understand the throughline between that and how compelling it seemed to you last EOD. Along with that why/did your read yesterday that Rhand was probably not w/w with Axel (at least that's how I'm interpreting your 1756) change?
Do you have a reason for your read on me other than not being in your town reads?
Could you talk a bit more about how Vaimes's role lead you to think town? Like connect the dots for me, I'm not there.
Okay, so I don't think that misinterpretation in the posts Vaimes mentioned that KCC linked in itself makes them not partners, because it seems like just... a misinterpretation of something cryptic that Vaimes said, that I think could have happened even if they were wolves together. Even knowing his role "You can trust me" is like kind of a stretch to associate with it.
But there was this exchange Vaimes had with me about her that I actually think is pretty not partnery:
There isn't much to say. She softclaimed a scummy ability, and I kind of want to see what it is. Can't do that if she's dead. And I don't have a strong enough scumread on her to push it.
Quote from Keldeo »
Sorry, huh? Wouldn't she claim the role before being lynched, or it'd flip if and when she did?
I want to see her role while she is still alive, so waiting for her to flip is kind of counter-productive.
This was before she claimed, and I feel that the way he danced around the train of thought "I want to see her role so she needs to be alive" (which is a bit mystifying without the context of his role) would be less likely to occur to him as a thought to fake if they're w/w, because Vaimes would already know her role.
Like... I guess Vaimes' role would be a convenient excuse as a KCC partner to hold off on voting her - pretending to think about pseudo-rolecopping her. But I just feel like it's harder to arrive at that line of thought if he already knew her role. Does this make sense?
Ok i think he has no memorable stances other than picking no lynch at eod.
So if youre saying his scumgame is characterized by forced pushes, it looks like he didnt even manage to force them.
I pushed Axel, but that didn't go anywhere now.
If I were a wolf I'd probably have forced myself to make more pushes on like wolfy villagers, I think that's what Wisp is talking about here. I definitely would've buried KCC at EOD if she was town and I feel like I probably also would have if she were mafia.
Kind of like fulcrum's reads? We probably don't have enough kills to plow through them all but... they aren't completely weird or anything
Think Keldeo and Rhand are ~probably wolves and would be fine with either of them dying
Vaimes and KCC are okay shots because they're contentious slots if for no other reason, I guess
I'll try to steal some PC time and take a closer look at the votals tomorrow
Tell me about Rhand again, if you could? The last time you did you linked me to your early post about his read on you in P#300 feeling insufficiently justified, which I get although I don't think it damns him, but that's one thing and from super early. Has your read on him developed based on what he's done since then?
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@Rhand, you haven't really talked about Silver since responding to that post Silver made about your early post, which was about his approach from very early on. Does this read still hold up to you - in other words, has your townread been reaffirmed or eroded by stuff he's done? His approach to you no longer seems to be "your posts feel weird," given that he fleshed out his read on you more later.
Ohh I see what u mean, I should've made a distinction between her soft and her actual claim
Her soft probably doesn't come from a wolf like I said, but her role abilities look +wolf, and they the way she went about saying, 'and here is the kicker", just comes off as fake
If the ability would’ve worked on Vez, he would probably have joined the chat with whoever the partner is and outed him to scum.
And he would’ve closed mason chat, which is pretty big.
And if he knew he can’t take a passive, he didn’t give a BP vest to someone he would maybe have to kill later.
I see only mafia gain and no town gain in targeting Vez.
lmaooo, what game/mechanics are you basing this on? I would think it's 100% impossible for scum to break into, or even LOOK into, a Mason chat.
I obviously meant you would've ended up in a neighbour chat with Vez's partner.
first of all, thats not a team of 4 scum its 4 people i think are scummy in a world where the kcc wagon is town.
Obviously kcc is suspect there, and the 3 people i just talked about.
I doubt that those particular 4 are very likely.
Second. 17 player game, 4 seems most likely yeah?
Hm maybe. I was thinking 5 scum or 4 + 1/2 neutrals.
Anyways, I thought this was your full world, so I misinterpreted the post.
Well, silly seems wrong. You can disagree, but really only if you're strongly scum-reading him. Otherwise Mason is kind of exactly what you would want in this spot.
I want someone I trust as town + someone whose reads I trust. Do I trust vezok's process as town? No.
Then why are you wasting your time telling us we shouldn't have elected him rather than trying to make sure Vezok lynches correctly?
@Rhand, you haven't really talked about Silver since responding to that post Silver made about your early post, which was about his approach from very early on. Does this read still hold up to you - in other words, has your townread been reaffirmed or eroded by stuff he's done? His approach to you no longer seems to be "your posts feel weird," given that he fleshed out his read on you more later.
The read became less strong, but I still think he's town. It's very common to enter a Rhand tunnel early and never leave it.
It's something in the way my posts sound. I wish I knew what it was so I would get mislynched less often as town.
FYI y'all I'm about halfway done with reading the thread (up to around post 1000) and I should be able to finish tomorrow and provide a detailed readslist.
Like I’m understanding that as “Vaimes is scum and tried to become a Neighbor with vezok’s unclaimed Mason partner while shutting down the Mason chat and turning vezok vanilla.”
Well, silly seems wrong. You can disagree, but really only if you're strongly scum-reading him. Otherwise Mason is kind of exactly what you would want in this spot.
I want someone I trust as town + someone whose reads I trust. Do I trust vezok's process as town? No.
I saw this again and had to comment. This is a pretty preposterous statement to make when half of the ***** that happened yesterday was because you counter claimed KCC for no reason.
There's also the fact that you changed the season to summer without consulting with anyone and wouldn't you know it summer is exactly the season that unlocks the day kill for scum.
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Like I’m understanding that as “Vaimes is scum and tried to become a Neighbor with vezok’s unclaimed Mason partner while shutting down the Mason chat and turning vezok vanilla.”
I'm getting a little lost here. Your role is some kind of trader, right? So, you were expecting that you could get some version of her ability, she could take one of yours, but she wouldn't actually have to give up anything for it?
I didn’t think I’d like. Take her place in the Mason chat. My assumptions were that either I’d get some kind of one-shot ability related to Masons (ideally) or maybe Neighborhoods (meh).
I kinda didn’t ask DV any more questions after he said I could acquire passive abilities.
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Oh, dk asked if I had expressed interest in killing Keldeo previously. The answer is yes.
I didn’t think I’d like. Take her place in the Mason chat. My assumptions were that either I’d get some kind of one-shot ability related to Masons (ideally) or maybe Neighborhoods (meh).
Yeah, yeah, I understand what you were hoping to get from it, I'm confused about what you thought she might be giving up in the trade?
Keldeo does not appear to have had anything to say about me for the first 1000+ post of the game. All his quick impressions and hot takes are on other people.
I subbed in at about 1100 posts in, so I'm not really sure what you mean here?
I'm talking about your reads that you were giving in the thread. Wherever you subbed in, you were reading and giving opinions on people but did not have anything to say about anything that I said in the first 100O+ posts of the game. Which I do not care about except in as much as I'm trying to identify when/where the scum read you supposedly had developed.
I'm actually wondering, you voted not to lynch at the end mostly because you wanted to get your ability off, right? How does that interact with your desire to get more flips/hard info to help your solving?
I am not actually a "lynch at any costs" person. I tend to feel that a mislynch is worse than a no lynch, and I will usually oppose a lynch on someone I think is town, even if it's the only lynch that seems viable. That can change depending on particular circumstances, but these circumstances were that it was early, and I had this ability, and other people had claimed abilities, and at least mild town reads of the people who were on the block (not counting myself). So on balance it seemed like an okay thing to do. The main downside was extending the game as opposed to advancing it, but I'm also not generally in a rush to do things.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I do not grok Vaimes's actions or just his attitude in general. His actions make more sense to me as coming from a scum mindset (with a Town Vez) than from a town one.
That may be all I've got to say there.
I remember re-reading something Nacho posted that bugged me also. I am going to go find it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It’s happened like four or five times this game.
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dk, how about you explain to me nice and slow why you, or anyone, should care when I picked my targets? I don’t get the relevance. What do you want, time stamps? I ran through the reasons I picked who I picked, and people are sick of me going on and on about my role.
I mean in general, mechanics heavy games kinda makes us focus more on roles than just playing mafia. Which, you know, is one of the reasons the topic of No Lunch came up.
but like I said, I am over it
fulcrum/Rhand/KCC
people can add keldeo there if it makes them feel better
Still definitely a part of me that think it makes him scum, but I've decided not to listen to that.
Anyway I think Vaimes is >rand to be town but not by much. I'm not married to the read but there is enough there (activity, tone, and lack of worrying ties) that he's not my top priority. I'm going to actually try to get some digging and actually figure out what I think rather than having a mass of town reads and shrugs.
I was never overly fluffy, or crazy with mechanics play?
but I love you too Grape
Just frustrated, we probably just need more deaths to analyze
tone is pretty much nai for Vaimes as well
the only ok thing is his volume, I guess?
What about the content of his posts? can you talk about them?
Ay.
@Grape
Answer my question in the above epost when you get a chance
@Proph
Hopefully you can give me some of thoughts soon
Think Keldeo and Rhand are ~probably wolves and would be fine with either of them dying
Vaimes and KCC are okay shots because they're contentious slots if for no other reason, I guess
I'll try to steal some PC time and take a closer look at the votals tomorrow
I mean, with the roles we have, I'm also expecting more information to come out and clear/catch people.
I might iso Keldeo, right now he's just kind of here and posting a bunch and I think he has villagery tone but Mindreaver was pretty bad and Keldeo fits on a lot of teams
I pretty strongly disagree on you not ever being wild mechanically, but you've improved pretty drastically. But to be honest in my eyes you're still a bit wild (repeated calls that the second mason should claim for instance). Doesn't make you wrong, just makes me really conservative when it comes to roles.
As for Vaimes I can't point to anything particular in his content, but I haven't been overly pinged by anything he's done. I guess in that sense it's similar to his GoT play but being vaguely similar to a scum game by not pinging me isn't enough for me to want to target him first.
It's definitely not a fun to deal with in terms of you guys
But it works for me, u guys like to be careful with your reads, while I like to just jump right in
Vezok's partner shouldve claimed, i stand by that
But like his posts are bad or at least were bad, that's why he had to claim, so supporting bad play after another is just lol?
But like in any other game where this wasn't the case, any player or players would be hounding him or should be hounding him for his partners name
Ok, I see now where the mechanical part comes from lol
Ok I'll be back at some point
I also just put the pieces together on Vaimes' cryptic "I want to know what KCC's role does, but not by lynching her, she needs to survive until the night" thing on day 1. So that's another point to the fact that he's not lying, although that doesn't move the needle to me.
I subbed in at about 1100 posts in, so I'm not really sure what you mean here?
re: other parts of this post, I didn't like how you approached talking about KCC and my slot, it felt like you weren't actually looking into what you were saying you were (wrt that post where you said you wanted to refresh yourself on what you disliked on KCC but then talked about fulcrum and dipped), and then were shading her claim without actually committing to mafiareading her.
The "I want people to talk about Axelrod" post was basically "villagers might say stuff in response to this question that could spew themselves not w/w with Axel" - an attempt to judge how people were reading you without biasing their input by revealing my own SR of you. And then KJ expressed part of what I didn't like about you pretty concisely.
This is all to say I wasn't barning KJ, I was scumreading you before it was cool
Your claim and the fact that now I'm generally liking your process better today has kind of eclipsed that to me.
I'm actually wondering, you voted not to lynch at the end mostly because you wanted to get your ability off, right? How does that interact with your desire to get more flips/hard info to help your solving?
Could you talk some about what you find similar between the Wonka game and this game? Even if you're not sure, it's helpful to know more about your process and what you're thinking about in order to read you.
I feel like it's not totally indicative of my wolfrange because I wasn't fully informed, for all that's worth.
Do you have a reason for your read on me other than not being in your town reads?
Could you talk a bit more about how Vaimes's role lead you to think town? Like connect the dots for me, I'm not there.
KCC, can you look at Tom's post 2414 and tell me what you think of the people wagoning you? Or how the EOD yesterday affected how you saw people?
I guess I'd just like you to talk about things that aren't related to abilities/mechanics, because you haven't been doing a ton of that so far today.
But there was this exchange Vaimes had with me about her that I actually think is pretty not partnery:
Like... I guess Vaimes' role would be a convenient excuse as a KCC partner to hold off on voting her - pretending to think about pseudo-rolecopping her. But I just feel like it's harder to arrive at that line of thought if he already knew her role. Does this make sense?
Wisp, could you talk about this one? I thought you said her claim was wolfy, and it is a wolfy ability.
If I were a wolf I'd probably have forced myself to make more pushes on like wolfy villagers, I think that's what Wisp is talking about here. I definitely would've buried KCC at EOD if she was town and I feel like I probably also would have if she were mafia.
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@Rhand, you haven't really talked about Silver since responding to that post Silver made about your early post, which was about his approach from very early on. Does this read still hold up to you - in other words, has your townread been reaffirmed or eroded by stuff he's done? His approach to you no longer seems to be "your posts feel weird," given that he fleshed out his read on you more later.
her claim is wolfy, but like the way she went about softing it day 1, to me at least, is less likely to come from a wolf
Her soft probably doesn't come from a wolf like I said, but her role abilities look +wolf, and they the way she went about saying, 'and here is the kicker", just comes off as fake
I obviously meant you would've ended up in a neighbour chat with Vez's partner.
Hm maybe. I was thinking 5 scum or 4 + 1/2 neutrals.
Anyways, I thought this was your full world, so I misinterpreted the post.
Nacho / Vaimes the strongest reads. I'll try to get a more thorough read in soon. I've only skimmed the last pages.
It might be confirmation bias, but this post doesn't feel like Nacho is part of us, calling us "y'all".
Then why are you wasting your time telling us we shouldn't have elected him rather than trying to make sure Vezok lynches correctly?
The read became less strong, but I still think he's town. It's very common to enter a Rhand tunnel early and never leave it.
It's something in the way my posts sound. I wish I knew what it was so I would get mislynched less often as town.
So you’re scumreading me for a made-up, borderline impossible scenario that has never actually happened?
That’s like saying a villager could somehow gain access to scumchat and tell everyone who the scum are.
I saw this again and had to comment. This is a pretty preposterous statement to make when half of the ***** that happened yesterday was because you counter claimed KCC for no reason.
There's also the fact that you changed the season to summer without consulting with anyone and wouldn't you know it summer is exactly the season that unlocks the day kill for scum.
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I'm getting a little lost here. Your role is some kind of trader, right? So, you were expecting that you could get some version of her ability, she could take one of yours, but she wouldn't actually have to give up anything for it?
I kinda didn’t ask DV any more questions after he said I could acquire passive abilities.
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Oh, dk asked if I had expressed interest in killing Keldeo previously. The answer is yes.
Yeah, yeah, I understand what you were hoping to get from it, I'm confused about what you thought she might be giving up in the trade?
If I traded with say, a full Cop, I’d get a cop shot, but I don’t think the Cop would become a VT because they have unlimited shots.
Was my thinking. It was explained to me but I dunno if I understood correctly.
I am not actually a "lynch at any costs" person. I tend to feel that a mislynch is worse than a no lynch, and I will usually oppose a lynch on someone I think is town, even if it's the only lynch that seems viable. That can change depending on particular circumstances, but these circumstances were that it was early, and I had this ability, and other people had claimed abilities, and at least mild town reads of the people who were on the block (not counting myself). So on balance it seemed like an okay thing to do. The main downside was extending the game as opposed to advancing it, but I'm also not generally in a rush to do things.
That may be all I've got to say there.
I remember re-reading something Nacho posted that bugged me also. I am going to go find it.
Also back to wanting to kill Nacho.