Quoting Nacho's posts about KCC here because he said a lot of very good things. Plus my own comment that her trajectory on me is rubbish and the way she's been treating Nacho slimy as **** - she completely lacks paranoia about him while he's pushing super hard on her and is talking to Keldeo about how he's being reasonable and town and that's just not how villagers behave when being pushed.
I swear whenever nacho gives reads, they are wolfy as *****, but when he attacks people he is full on bravado, and it kinda looks townie
@vaimes
If you are a wolf this game, I will hate myself letting you live past day 1, but given that you have this impenetrable day 1 meta armor, it's actually impossible
then put what you call "bravado" in your back pocket because this is the feeling that i can't fake as scum.
i'm very confident in the town circle because there are a bunch of people putting genuine effort into solving the same that i feel are leaps and bounds apart from their scumgames, and i don't feel these games come along very often.
kitty is scum. the towniest thing she's done this game is claim that she has a scummy PR which isn't anywhere enough to excuse her overall reactions with the vezok and m1ndreaver wagons (contributes nothing agrees with case, contributes nothing agrees with case, oh here's a case on m1ndreaver that's literally her just saying "this is fake" 5 times with quotes).
i hate her treatment of Gemma; she seems to circle around a scumread throughout the entirety of the exchange (and I think that Kitty as town would be scumreading Gemma after some of her exchanges), but she never actually bites back because she doesn't want to scumread a universal townread. there's no point where Kitty seems like she's pursuing a genuine read and the things that she does decide to pursue have a very, very clear agenda for Kitty as scum.
I'm not really a fan of KCC's #740. She posts that she's in the process of catching up, says that she's more than happy to address any off-hand things in the mean time - Silver asks her to comment on top wagons, she offers a bunch of non-controversial opinions and then disappears. Seems like the perfect example of a wolfy pop-in; do just enough to make sure that everyone knows you're around, then disappear again.
Disappear... as in used my available time the next day to read instead of post?
Also, look, I love playing scum when I roll it. Lurking is not a thing I do, I think it's against the spirit of the game, and just a bad strategy anyway.
If you have an issue with my content, cool, but I'm a little tired of being attacked for dealing with an IRL issue at this point
This is also a very opportunistic hop onto the Vezok wagon - really don't like how the sum of her contribution to it so far is "i agree with what x said about vezok!". don't like that she's not really trying to figure out the alignment of anyone who she's lynching.
I think Vez is way easier to read under pressure. My vote was me trying to figure out her alignment.
You have limited time to post, I'm completely okay with that (I also have limited time!).
However, instead of using your limited time to post something useful like... unique thoughts, feelings you had about the game, things that you thought were important, you posted a bunch of non-controversial opinions on the wagon because Silver asked. I have a problem with that because I don't think it is how a townie approaches the game when catching up. I also don't like that you boiled down your push on me to "you're another one pushing me for lurking".
When you voted vezok, why choose to vote Vezok over M1nd? Why not vote Vezok earlier if you think that she's easier to vote under pressure?
Then stop gnashing your teeth and making subtle jabs at me.
Well then maybe stop acting like you're queen of the thread. It's just a little annoying watching you actively make the game unplayable while wondering why the game state is a mess
Quoting Nacho's posts about KCC here because he said a lot of very good things. Plus my own comment that her trajectory on me is rubbish and the way she's been treating Nacho slimy as **** - she completely lacks paranoia about him while he's pushing super hard on her and is talking to Keldeo about how he's being reasonable and town and that's just not how villagers behave when being pushed.
I don't overreact to pressure, I'm used to it. Someone voting me doesn't automatically make them scum. It's probably my favorite way to gauge someone's motives, and I liked his approach
Then stop gnashing your teeth and making subtle jabs at me.
Well then maybe stop acting like you're queen of the thread. It's just a little annoying watching you actively make the game unplayable while wondering why the game state is a mess
Oh, sorry, suppose I have been posting a bit much. Guess I lost track of that somewhere along the way. Definitely wasn't trying to act like queen of anything.
Quoting Nacho's posts about KCC here because he said a lot of very good things. Plus my own comment that her trajectory on me is rubbish and the way she's been treating Nacho slimy as **** - she completely lacks paranoia about him while he's pushing super hard on her and is talking to Keldeo about how he's being reasonable and town and that's just not how villagers behave when being pushed.
I don't overreact to pressure, I'm used to it. Someone voting me doesn't automatically make them scum. It's probably my favorite way to gauge someone's motives, and I liked his approach
That is fair and I retract my concerns about that. And now I will take a leave of absence from thread - when I start having fun I get sucked into the game and start posting a lot and forget that other people hate it and that's bad!
I am trying, trying, to do something more than skim the thread and twiddle my thumbs. It is hard.
At the moment I'm looking at KCC again to remember what I didn't like about her play. But in the course of doing that I have had a tiny insight on Fulcrum so I'm stopping and posting that. Which is this post:
I'm kind of actually angry about the tom thing, and that's not a healthy response, so I'm going to give myself a break from this for a bit. Ping me if you need me (there are pings, right?).
And my tiny insight is that I don't think this post ever comes from scum, regardless of whether Tom is scum or not. The sentiment being expressed here is too genuine. He's really upset about Tom atm and I don't think that's fake.
If Fulcrum were scum, and Tom was Town, then, he'd either be thinking (1) Tom's got a posting restriction - which is not something to get angry about, or (2) Tom's goofing - which, if you are scum, is not something to get angry about but something to be happy about because his goofing is clearly turning some people off and not helping the Town basically at all.
If Fulcrum was scum with Tom, then they'd be talking about it in the day-chat presumably. And again, there would be no reason for Fulcrum to be upset about it, except in the very, very corner case where he's strongly disagreeing with Tom's (presumably) faking a post restriction and Tom's ignoring his wishes and doing it anyway. In which case the sentiment expressed above - that he's angry with Tom - could be true, but not for the reasons we think.
That's it. Maybe I'm being snowed by an extremely meta/clever post, but I don't think so.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
People got mad at me for saying that I thought a "Town" KCC would have given a better excuse/been more apologetic about her absence from the thread, but I still stand by that. I wasn't trying to be rude or insensitive to anyone though. Not sure why people read it that way. It was a very clinical observation.
It appears (now) that there may have been something happening irl that KCC isn't talking about, and I will respect that completely. But there wasn't any indications of that at the time.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
GOD this thread blew the frick up. HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH tryna sort through it. Seems like the DK wagon is back on the menu. The KCC wagon is confusing right now-- kinda wanna back off it for a minute and see where things go. (Feel bad that I only have 18 posts in this thread. I do genuinely try to post something substantial each time and not just poof nothings at the screen, but this does result in my having a much smaller presence.)
I can't tell if grape is defending DK because they're wolves together or if grape is just legit uncertain. I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
Other, more experienced mafia players that I'm generally townreading seem to have placed vezok as town, so I'll sheep that for now. The interaction was weird to me but probably unremarkable to someone who actually knows this game.
Townreading keldeo for now. Seems good, seems organic.
First, I want to say this, I'm sorry I haven't been able to provide more content and be more active. The timing hasn't been working in my favor. I'm mostly around from mid-morning to early afternoon on weekdays (US eastern time). I'm rarely ever active at night or on weekends, and it seems like that is when the majority of you are regularly posting. It's frustrating to see that there were only about a dozen posts between my first and last posts yesterday, and then I come back to see you guys filled up three pages last night! I wish I could do more in real time, but I need to primarily lean on catching up/commenting on what I missed the previous night.
Gemma, you seem to be in a tunnel with me that I won't be able to to talk you out of, and that just is what it is. But I want to address a couple things that you're wrong or misguided on.
To start, I kinda feel like you and Nacho are both hung up on my general style/approach. I don't want to get too deep into OOG/post-game territory, but maybe I can at least help you understand how I approach Mafia. Threat hunting is a significant part of what I do every single day. I examine patterns of behavior, investigate anomalies and determine whether they are likely to be malicious or benign. I'm mathematical by nature, obsessing over patterns is central to how I think, and it frequently manifests in Mafia games. I can't even tell you the number of times over the years that I've scumread someone because they did something in a past game as scum, or even because someone else did that thing in a past game as scum, and I've been right quite a few times so I keep making those connections. It's also why voting patterns and VCA have always been a huge part of my analysis toolkit.
Saying that, I most certainly did not vote KCC "thoughtlessly". You're right that I didn't express much when I voted her in a PTAP, but I did address this later with Killjoy. When multiple players sheep a case in quick succession like that, I've found there is scum in the mix more often than not. It happened to me twice in my last game.
Rhand voted you for voting tom, tom accused you of TMI.
dk's sterility is his disinclination to produce anything game-changing, like a debate moderator handcuffed by a network committed to being as completely bland and centrist as possible so as to alienate as few viewers as possible.
I mean the fact that he started the Vez wagon disputes that theory of events.
Eh, he made that post at my prompting, kind of diminishes his agency in that. What else has he done?
On this: It's true that I put that large case together when you asked me about vezok, but I had already voiced concerns about vezok and voted her much earlier in the game.
Also, you asked about the redacted read, which was on Silver. Fairly early on I noticed he had a tendency to waffle on his points or talk himself in circles, often in the same post. But he's done it less as the game has progressed and I came to the conclusion that it's just a habit of his and is probably NAI.
I know
Something only I know
I got super powers but that's something only I know
What I want is mine if I say it in my mind though
Teach you if I had time, yeah
Do I got the time? No
Oh, sorry, suppose I have been posting a bit much. Guess I lost track of that somewhere along the way. Definitely wasn't trying to act like queen of anything.
I realize you weren't doing it intentionally, you're just used to a different environment, and I'm sorry I let my irritation with aspects of this game spill into my interactions with you. I do want you to have fun here
Something I noticed that is pushing me towards you more likely being town is that you've stopped asking for my readlist, but you also haven't once since shaded me for not giving it while asking others, which would have been an incredibly easy opening to push
This day is dragging on and the fact that the only wagon that went off was mine means scum are ok with just laying back. I'd like more votes on KCC. I'm not really feeling dk, but I won't oppose his lynch.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
Why are they odd choices? Weren't you scumreading me earlier?
Asta is literally a walking ball of contradiction, literally some of her/his thoughts dont feel like it is coming from a new player
is he putting on a facade for free town reads? or is he being coached? or is he just disconnected town
Tom - Good luck. People are anemic to lynching him (see Modern where he somehow managed to skate for days as scum despite being more-or-less caught). From a personal standpoint, he has a scum-sided style of play that I have never been able to accurately read. FTR though, if it ever becomes clear that this is just a gimmick and not an actual posting restriction, I will unilaterally vote him until either he or I are dead.
I'm having trouble seeing this as a sincere thought. -DK, what do you think the odds are that this game not only has an absurdly oppressive PR, but it just happens to random onto the player who routinely does this for fun?
A lot of posts but only 7 votes between #546 and #809, for the record, most of those the speed wagon on Vezok from 806-809 (tom, KCC, Last).
Mindreaver/Keldeo wagons were same as Vezok's at the peak and had more actual voters on and off, KCC had one less vote than Vezok did at the peak. The speed wagon is the players-in-common from Vezok/Keldeo wagons, too.
Wagon composition of the Vezok and Keldeo wagons is wildly different from the KCC wagon, which is interesting.
@KCC: Do you think anyone on your wagon is a wolf? To be clear, I mean these players:
KittyCupCake (5): Nachomamma8 (#833), Gemma (#882), dkingsland967 (#942), Asta (#1042), vezokpiraka (#1135)
Okay it's my usual mafia experience where I just accept that I have no reads for now and chaos will reign until we can successfully trim down the numbers. This'll be fun.
I'm gonna follow the movement and lay down a vote to get discussion going. See where this goes!
Asta is literally a walking ball of contradiction, literally some of her/his thoughts dont feel like it is coming from a new player
is he putting on a facade for free town reads? or is he being coached? or is he just disconnected town
But that's fine. I think it's been confirmed by a couple people that he's a noob, and if so he's probably unsure of his reads and the jumping around makes sense.
Tom - Good luck. People are anemic to lynching him (see Modern where he somehow managed to skate for days as scum despite being more-or-less caught). From a personal standpoint, he has a scum-sided style of play that I have never been able to accurately read. FTR though, if it ever becomes clear that this is just a gimmick and not an actual posting restriction, I will unilaterally vote him until either he or I are dead.
I'm having trouble seeing this as a sincere thought. -DK, what do you think the odds are that this game not only has an absurdly oppressive PR, but it just happens to random onto the player who routinely does this for fun?
I didn't know Tom does this stuff for fun? He played normally in Modern, which was both my first time playing with him and my first game at all since 2016.
But if he's faking it that's a bad look. It reminds me of a game from a few years ago when scum!Seppel used his chat bot from Social Engineering on the first day of the game. It just gave him a built-in excuse to "play" without doing literal anything, but most of us thought it was hilarious so he skated for much of the game.
Okay, yeah, I agree, if Tom is scum, he happily hops on there. But, I don't think that means townTom doesn't make that vote too.
Because I like his Vez vote there. And the mind vote after. And while I don't know exactly why Tom was scumlean on Rhand, I know I had suspicions there too for a bit, and I agree with where he is now that it's likely v/v.
KCC, if you were voting Vezok to pressure her, what was your reasoning for also liking Tom's vote on her?
I didn't know Tom does this stuff for fun? He played normally in Modern, which was both my first time playing with him and my first game at all since 2016.
But if he's faking it that's a bad look. It reminds me of a game from a few years ago when scum!Seppel used his chat bot from Social Engineering on the first day of the game. It just gave him a built-in excuse to "play" without doing literal anything, but most of us thought it was hilarious so he skated for much of the game.
My feeling is that Tom has still been playing, albeit not nearly as well as he could be, despite the gimmick, instead of taking that excuse to not play. Do you disagree?
I kinda just went through that. It'd be weird if there wasn't scum in there. But I strongly doubt Vez, Nachos push feels fine and not malicious. Gemma I have some concerns about, but I'm somewhat leaning town now. DK makes some sense. -With the strong stance he took against Toms posting gimmick, him then referencing Modern for two examples of scumTom barning his cases, but instead voting Me over Tom there feels like a disconnect in his reasoning.
And then Asta. I've been town reading Asta. But someone mentioning the chance Asta is faking new town, has made me question that. Thinking back, the way Asta voted me was very convenient and non committal if they aren't actually new.
I mean, he's posting reads and votes, sure. But the ambiguity of most of the lyrics he's posted makes a lot of it unsubtantiated. There have only been a handful of posts where I could try to discern what he may have been thinking. A perfect example is the Grapefruit TMI thing that was discussed yesterday.
Hey guys, I'm really sorry for my lack of activity but I've got a very sick little girl that I'm trying to take care of while working from home.
I see there is a wagon on me that mostly looks like naked votes/sheeping... so not sure how much I can dissect from that. I think the reactions of people who didn't vote might be a better source of analysis. I'll try to take a closer look later today when I get a chance and catch up on the posts I've missed.
Dk, what's the difference between your wagon there and the wagon on Vezok. Why would you look at the people who didn't react to the wagon on you but look within the voters on Vez?
But that's fine. I think it's been confirmed by a couple people that he's a noob, and if so he's probably unsure of his reads and the jumping around makes sense.
I didn't know Tom does this stuff for fun? He played normally in Modern, which was both my first time playing with him and my first game at all since 2016
Okay, maybe, but I feel like it's been discussed quite a bit in this game.
But that's fine. I think it's been confirmed by a couple people that he's a noob, and if so he's probably unsure of his reads and the jumping around makes sense.
That's pretty much how I'd been reading him. Can anyone confirm this, I don't remember any other discussion on this
KCC, if you were voting Vezok to pressure her, what was your reasoning for also liking Tom's vote on her?
I also thought it was a good case from dk, and liked Tom pushing the game forward there
I mean, I know that specific vote isn't AI for him, since scumTom makes that vote too. And I'm confirmation biasing from agreeing with his reads and pushes in general.
Hey guys, I'm really sorry for my lack of activity but I've got a very sick little girl that I'm trying to take care of while working from home.
I see there is a wagon on me that mostly looks like naked votes/sheeping... so not sure how much I can dissect from that. I think the reactions of people who didn't vote might be a better source of analysis. I'll try to take a closer look later today when I get a chance and catch up on the posts I've missed.
Dk, what's the difference between your wagon there and the wagon on Vezok. Why would you look at the people who didn't react to the wagon on you but look within the voters on Vez?
The wagon on me early on was literally started by a naked vote, fell apart before I even came back to the game, and looked like people fishing for reactions. The Vez wagon was prompted by an actual case and content.
I also probably conf-biased it a bit since I was townreading all of the players who voted me.
I didn't know Tom does this stuff for fun? He played normally in Modern, which was both my first time playing with him and my first game at all since 2016
Okay, maybe, but I feel like it's been discussed quite a bit in this game.
I probably only skimmed whatever discussion there was
I kinda just went through that. It'd be weird if there wasn't scum in there. But I strongly doubt Vez, Nachos push feels fine and not malicious. Gemma I have some concerns about, but I'm somewhat leaning town now. DK makes some sense. -With the strong stance he took against Toms posting gimmick, him then referencing Modern for two examples of scumTom barning his cases, but instead voting Me over Tom there feels like a disconnect in his reasoning.
And then Asta. I've been town reading Asta. But someone mentioning the chance Asta is faking new town, has made me question that. Thinking back, the way Asta voted me was very convenient and non committal if they aren't actually new.
I probably missed it, sorry. Since the Vezok/Mindreaver wagons have you/tom/Last on them and share almost zero players with your wagon, I'm wondering if those two wagons aren't wolf driven but it seems unlikely for all three wagons to be.
I probably missed it, sorry. Since the Vezok/Mindreaver wagons have you/tom/Last on them and share almost zero players with your wagon, I'm wondering if those two wagons aren't wolf driven but it seems unlikely for all three wagons to be.
Thoughts?
With wagons of 5-6 players, there's probably about 1 scum on each regardless of anyone's alignment.
I probably missed it, sorry. Since the Vezok/Mindreaver wagons have you/tom/Last on them and share almost zero players with your wagon, I'm wondering if those two wagons aren't wolf driven but it seems unlikely for all three wagons to be.
Thoughts?
With wagons of 5-6 players, there's probably about 1 scum on each regardless of anyone's alignment.
Well, yes, but that's not ~quite what I mean
Do you think all the wagons have been driven by villagers with wolves just hopping on?
I can't tell if grape is defending DK because they're wolves together or if grape is just legit uncertain. I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
FWIW I'm not scum reading Fulcrum, just repeatedly saying I fully believe she'd be able to fool me. If I ignore my repsect/fear of her scum game I'd have her as a squishy town lean.
Anyway:
Silver is town enough for today for all the reasons stated earlier and his vote count digging today.
Last is town for a a few reasons but most strongly a linguistic tell.
Vez is town for the mason claim.
KJ is town for the Rhand saga.
Asta is town for being an agengdaless presence. He could be coached into it but it would require stellar play from him and one of Tom, Nacho, or Fulcrum as a buddy. Maybe Gemma, Axel, Rhand, or DK could pull it off but I think it probably would have to be one of those first 3.
Gemma, DK, Vaimes, Nacho, and Fulcrum are players I'm not interested toDay at all. They've given enough that they either impress me as generally townie without a defining moment or have a moment that gives me doubts they're scum but no overall impression. Vaimes is the closest falling out of that group mostly by peer pressure and self doubt.
That leaves me with Jackrito!slot, KCC, Rhand, Keldeo, Axel, and tom as my pool for toDay. Going to a quick dive on each of those except tom and JacklancerX an see if anything sticks out.
The wagon on me early on was literally started by a naked vote, fell apart before I even came back to the game, and looked like people fishing for reactions. The Vez wagon was prompted by an actual case and content.
I also probably conf-biased it a bit since I was townreading all of the players who voted me.
Humm.
Have you talked about the other votes on the Vez wagon, and why they weren't as suspicious as KCC's?
Not very well, but familiar with you. We were in Tiny Hunt together and I've read several of your games here. And others I'm more familiar with have spoken very highly of your scum game (Tom, Vaimes, and Gemma off the top of my head but I think I remember Voxx and Reg speaking highly of it as well). So enough to have an opinion but not enough to be familiar with the ins and outs of your play.
Not very well, but familiar with you. We were in Tiny Hunt together and I've read several of your games here. And others I'm more familiar with have spoken very highly of your scum game (Tom, Vaimes, and Gemma off the top of my head but I think I remember Voxx and Reg speaking highly of it as well). So enough to have an opinion but not enough to be familiar with the ins and outs of your play.
Ah.
You didn't treat me like this in that game, iirc. You were paranoid of me, but not talking up my scum game. What changed?
You're voting the mindreaver replacement and this post kind of reads like you don't realize that?
No, I know where my vote is, I've just been strongly considering moving it. Keldeo made a good first impression, and I kinda want to see more there. But between Minds posts, and how pure that wagon looks, and how it fell apart, this might still be the best chance
You didn't treat me like this in that game, iirc. You were paranoid of me, but not talking up my scum game. What changed?
There I knew you worse than everyone else so it didn't make sense to parrot that idea. This game I'm probably in either the top 3rd or half in familiarity with you and there is some value to attempting to moderate the reads of people who don't know you.
Do you have experience with M1ndreaver's scum game vs his town game? A majority of your commentary on his posts was that he felt fake - do you have a baseline to compare it with?
Why does the wagon being pure matter to you? I understand the concept, using page 1 reads on a fairly strong wagon to supplement your read is pretty confirmation bias-y.
In what way is the wagon falling apart indicative of M1nd being scum? If you think the wagon was all town then it was just a matter of townies unvoting unless I'm missing something in your thought process here.
The wagon on me early on was literally started by a naked vote, fell apart before I even came back to the game, and looked like people fishing for reactions. The Vez wagon was prompted by an actual case and content.
I also probably conf-biased it a bit since I was townreading all of the players who voted me.
Yeah, trying to look at the votes on me from Monday is literally useless. Nacho seems to be putting in consistent effort to Figure Things Out, so he seems fine, and the other three votes were just sheeping. I guess Gemma's later explanation of helping Nacho along is... ok, I guess, given their apparent level of familiarity.
I see there is a wagon on me that mostly looks like naked votes/sheeping... so not sure how much I can dissect from that. I think the reactions of people who didn't vote might be a better source of analysis.
I still really don't like his comment that my wagon "reeked" of frustration. He essentially threw shade at 30% of the playerbase without bothering to extrapolate on exactly what it was he thought he saw. And his further explanation after he was asked about it didn't actually explain anything.
@KELDEO: It is less important now that you read every word and more important for you to be voting who you want to be dead. Why is Kitty reading town to you? Why is DK reading town to you? Is Vaimes really someone that you want dead right now (keeping in mind that if he's town then there's a significant potential he can flip himself to a nightkill prospect by Day 2)?
@LW: Same questions to you - I thought your mantra from before was that an early Vaimes lynch was dumb and would only go through if he was town and there was a scumteam around to take care of town's stupidity? Why are you pressing it now? What's wrong with a KCC lynch?
@VAIMES: Time to press your vote harder or find somewhere else to go. Axelrod never gets lynched here with what's been put against him so far so either push harder or come join KCC; it's about that time!
@Grapefruit: See above; goes double for you since you're a replacement and probably don't have the clout at this point to force through an entirely new lynch with 2 days left to deadline.
@Axelrod, Killjoy: Not voting at this point is bad - Axel, really don't understand why you unvoted Kitty (or why you're still twiddling your thumbs at this point, you've thought she was scum the whole game and now you're backing off??? Killjoy - you're questioning people, still trying to develop a read in kind of a laissez-faire way but that time has come and gone and it's time to vote to kill now. If we get an ACTUAL lynch wagon formed now, we'll have the opportunity to get a claim, react to the claim, redirect or confirm the lynch as needed but if we continue sitting on our asses we *might* get a claim and we *might* CFD somewhere else but we also might no lynch and I don't need to lecture anyone here (except maybe Asta) with how absolutely horrible that is for town.
@Nacho
there isnt anything wrong with the KCC lynch, like she isnt super bad or super great, there really isnt a reason for me to go against it
The problem is I dont really see a counter train to it
and I still dont see a reason for her claim if she was a wolf
and in regards to Vaimes, maybe I said it was dumb? idk, its still never going to go through, probably regardless of his alignment
Vaimes is trying super hard to either break his polarized meta, or he is trying super hard to fake his tone, either way I personally think its a great lynch given that I cant 100% lock him as town after 3 weeks
on another note, I do have a personal vendetta against him due to how he always targets me
And Kitty. You have to do something. If you are town here, you have to save yourself. If you are town and I am horribly wrong on you, I am sorry - I am not trying to fit you into the cookie cutter version of how townies need to respond to pressure and how townies need to feel paranoia when pushed, but right now I'm looking from a little fire from you and a little urgency in finding scum and I'm feeling any at all.
Like, again, maybe it's not who you are, but we haven't ever played together as far as I can tell - my style as town this game can very easily be described as "bipolar as all hell" and last night a piece of my push on you was "I'm townreading everyone outside of 4 people" and you weren't bothered by that whatsoever? You've spent effort in the thread, I can tell you care about the game, but the only thing you've really posted about who we should kill instead of you are soft nudges on DK and Keldeo?
Please. If you are town. Give me something. Push scum. Don't worry about defending yourself. Don't worry about being wrong. Push scum. Or give me more of your thought process on who you think might be scum and percentages of being scum and who you feel good about town and who you feel great about town; we've gone back and forth where I'm confident that you won't change my mind by defense alone. So, if you are town, I need you to pour yourself into reads, reads, and nothing but reads - I get that you think that expressing reads is pro-scum but transparency is how town finds each other and I can link you game after game after game that town has won because they've been transparent and open; I can show you games where I've posted over 500 times as scum but got utterly wrecked anyways because town has been transparent. You are on the fast track to death at the moment; put your cards on the table.
Lots of text and nothing seems to have been said apart from a semantic discussion on what sterile means.
Can someone explain me in simple words where the dkings wagon comes from?
If this is all you're getting from the last few pages then I think you need to dig a little deeper; please don't do to me what people did to you after the first Rhand post and just dismiss someone right after they put a bunch of work in.
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@Nacho Am going back here. Her treatment of me + you is really gross.
At the moment I'm looking at KCC again to remember what I didn't like about her play. But in the course of doing that I have had a tiny insight on Fulcrum so I'm stopping and posting that. Which is this post:
#355 And my tiny insight is that I don't think this post ever comes from scum, regardless of whether Tom is scum or not. The sentiment being expressed here is too genuine. He's really upset about Tom atm and I don't think that's fake.
If Fulcrum were scum, and Tom was Town, then, he'd either be thinking (1) Tom's got a posting restriction - which is not something to get angry about, or (2) Tom's goofing - which, if you are scum, is not something to get angry about but something to be happy about because his goofing is clearly turning some people off and not helping the Town basically at all.
If Fulcrum was scum with Tom, then they'd be talking about it in the day-chat presumably. And again, there would be no reason for Fulcrum to be upset about it, except in the very, very corner case where he's strongly disagreeing with Tom's (presumably) faking a post restriction and Tom's ignoring his wishes and doing it anyway. In which case the sentiment expressed above - that he's angry with Tom - could be true, but not for the reasons we think.
That's it. Maybe I'm being snowed by an extremely meta/clever post, but I don't think so.
It appears (now) that there may have been something happening irl that KCC isn't talking about, and I will respect that completely. But there wasn't any indications of that at the time.
I can't tell if grape is defending DK because they're wolves together or if grape is just legit uncertain. I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
Other, more experienced mafia players that I'm generally townreading seem to have placed vezok as town, so I'll sheep that for now. The interaction was weird to me but probably unremarkable to someone who actually knows this game.
Townreading keldeo for now. Seems good, seems organic.
Anyways, I do like the DK wagon again.
unvote kcc, VOTE dkings
To start, I kinda feel like you and Nacho are both hung up on my general style/approach. I don't want to get too deep into OOG/post-game territory, but maybe I can at least help you understand how I approach Mafia. Threat hunting is a significant part of what I do every single day. I examine patterns of behavior, investigate anomalies and determine whether they are likely to be malicious or benign. I'm mathematical by nature, obsessing over patterns is central to how I think, and it frequently manifests in Mafia games. I can't even tell you the number of times over the years that I've scumread someone because they did something in a past game as scum, or even because someone else did that thing in a past game as scum, and I've been right quite a few times so I keep making those connections. It's also why voting patterns and VCA have always been a huge part of my analysis toolkit.
Saying that, I most certainly did not vote KCC "thoughtlessly". You're right that I didn't express much when I voted her in a PTAP, but I did address this later with Killjoy. When multiple players sheep a case in quick succession like that, I've found there is scum in the mix more often than not. It happened to me twice in my last game.
On this: It's true that I put that large case together when you asked me about vezok, but I had already voiced concerns about vezok and voted her much earlier in the game.
Also, you asked about the redacted read, which was on Silver. Fairly early on I noticed he had a tendency to waffle on his points or talk himself in circles, often in the same post. But he's done it less as the game has progressed and I came to the conclusion that it's just a habit of his and is probably NAI.
Something only I know
I got super powers but that's something only I know
What I want is mine if I say it in my mind though
Teach you if I had time, yeah
Do I got the time? No
VLA
Something I noticed that is pushing me towards you more likely being town is that you've stopped asking for my readlist, but you also haven't once since shaded me for not giving it while asking others, which would have been an incredibly easy opening to push
Anyway I'm going to go reread vaimes and dk a bit
tomsloger (1): Grapefruit21 (#1077)
Axelrod (2): Killjoy (#959), Vaimes (#979)
Grapefruit21 (2): tomsloger (#1142), Rhand (#1154)
KittyCupCake (3): dkingsland967 (#942), vezokpiraka (#1135), Gemma (#1351)
Vaimes (3): fulcrum (#895), Keldeo (#1201), Lastwhisper (#1279)
dkingsland967 (3): Nachomamma8 (#1270), Silvercrys3467 (#1313), Asta (#1359)
Abstaining (2): Jackrito, Axelrod
Killjoy (1): Rhand (#989)
tomsloger (1): Grapefruit21 (#1077)
Vaimes (2): fulcrum (#895), tomsloger (#900)
Axelrod (2): Killjoy (#959), Vaimes (#979)
KittyCupCake (5): Nachomamma8 (#833), Gemma (#882), dkingsland967 (#942), Asta (#1042), vezokpiraka (#1135)
Abstaining (5): Jackrito, Axelrod, Lastwhisper, Silvercrys3467, Keldeo
vezokpiraka (1): Keldeo (#280)
dkingsland967 (1): Asta (#425)
Axelrod (2): Killjoy (#959), Vaimes (#979)
Keldeo (3): vezokpiraka (#182), KittyCupCake (#862), Silvercrys3467 (#870)
KittyCupCake (3): Nachomamma8 (#833), Gemma (#882), dkingsland967 (#942)
Vaimes (3): fulcrum (#895), tomsloger (#900), Lastwhisper (#918)
Abstaining (3): Jackrito, Rhand, Axelrod
This day is dragging on and the fact that the only wagon that went off was mine means scum are ok with just laying back. I'd like more votes on KCC. I'm not really feeling dk, but I won't oppose his lynch.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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@Asta: how did you go from DK being your strongest townread to liking his wagon?
Why are they odd choices? Weren't you scumreading me earlier?
is he putting on a facade for free town reads? or is he being coached? or is he just disconnected town
more at 10pm est
I'm having trouble seeing this as a sincere thought. -DK, what do you think the odds are that this game not only has an absurdly oppressive PR, but it just happens to random onto the player who routinely does this for fun?
Rhand (1): Killjoy (#516)
dkingsland967 (1): Asta (#425)
Axelrod (1): Vaimes (#650)
KittyCupCake (1): Nachomamma8 (#833)
vezokpiraka (2): Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312)
Keldeo (6): vezokpiraka (#182), Axelrod (#710), Lastwhisper (#811), tomsloger (#827), KittyCupCake (#862), Silvercrys3467 (#870)
Abstaining (4): Jackrito, Gemma, Rhand, fulcrum
Axelrod (1): Vaimes (#650)
Grapefruit21 (1): fulcrum (#763)
Rhand (2): Silvercrys3467 (#143), Killjoy (#516)
Keldeo (2): vezokpiraka (#182), Axelrod (#710)
dkingsland967 (2): Nachomamma8 (#408), Asta (#425)
vezokpiraka (6): Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312), Rhand (#487), tomsloger (#806), KittyCupCake (#807), Lastwhisper (#809)
Abstaining (2): Jackrito, Gemma
Asta (1): Grapefruit21 (#44)
Rhand (3): Silvercrys3467 (#143), fulcrum (#499), Killjoy (#516)
Keldeo (3): vezokpiraka (#182), tomsloger (#545), Lastwhisper (#546)
vezokpiraka (3): Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312), Rhand (#487)
dkingsland967 (3): Nachomamma8 (#408), Vaimes (#412), Asta (#425)
Abstaining (3): KittyCupCake, Jackrito, Gemma
KittyCupCake (1): Axelrod (#34)
Asta (1): Grapefruit21 (#44)
Rhand (1): Silvercrys3467 (#143)
Keldeo (1): vezokpiraka (#182)
Axelrod (1): Rhand (#194)
fulcrum (1): tomsloger (#263)
vezokpiraka (3): Lastwhisper (#247), Keldeo (#280), dkingsland967 (#312)
dkingsland967 (4): Nachomamma8 (#408), Gemma (#410), Vaimes (#412), Asta (#425)
Abstaining (3): fulcrum, KittyCupCake, Killjoy
A lot of posts but only 7 votes between #546 and #809, for the record, most of those the speed wagon on Vezok from 806-809 (tom, KCC, Last).
Mindreaver/Keldeo wagons were same as Vezok's at the peak and had more actual voters on and off, KCC had one less vote than Vezok did at the peak. The speed wagon is the players-in-common from Vezok/Keldeo wagons, too.
Wagon composition of the Vezok and Keldeo wagons is wildly different from the KCC wagon, which is interesting.
@KCC: Do you think anyone on your wagon is a wolf? To be clear, I mean these players:
KittyCupCake (5): Nachomamma8 (#833), Gemma (#882), dkingsland967 (#942), Asta (#1042), vezokpiraka (#1135)
Asta's previous vote on dk.
(For you, @Rhand)
But that's fine. I think it's been confirmed by a couple people that he's a noob, and if so he's probably unsure of his reads and the jumping around makes sense.
I didn't know Tom does this stuff for fun? He played normally in Modern, which was both my first time playing with him and my first game at all since 2016.
But if he's faking it that's a bad look. It reminds me of a game from a few years ago when scum!Seppel used his chat bot from Social Engineering on the first day of the game. It just gave him a built-in excuse to "play" without doing literal anything, but most of us thought it was hilarious so he skated for much of the game.
KCC, if you were voting Vezok to pressure her, what was your reasoning for also liking Tom's vote on her?
My feeling is that Tom has still been playing, albeit not nearly as well as he could be, despite the gimmick, instead of taking that excuse to not play. Do you disagree?
I kinda just went through that. It'd be weird if there wasn't scum in there. But I strongly doubt Vez, Nachos push feels fine and not malicious. Gemma I have some concerns about, but I'm somewhat leaning town now. DK makes some sense. -With the strong stance he took against Toms posting gimmick, him then referencing Modern for two examples of scumTom barning his cases, but instead voting Me over Tom there feels like a disconnect in his reasoning.
And then Asta. I've been town reading Asta. But someone mentioning the chance Asta is faking new town, has made me question that. Thinking back, the way Asta voted me was very convenient and non committal if they aren't actually new.
Dk, what's the difference between your wagon there and the wagon on Vezok. Why would you look at the people who didn't react to the wagon on you but look within the voters on Vez?
Okay, maybe, but I feel like it's been discussed quite a bit in this game.
I mean, I know that specific vote isn't AI for him, since scumTom makes that vote too. And I'm confirmation biasing from agreeing with his reads and pushes in general.
The wagon on me early on was literally started by a naked vote, fell apart before I even came back to the game, and looked like people fishing for reactions. The Vez wagon was prompted by an actual case and content.
I also probably conf-biased it a bit since I was townreading all of the players who voted me.
Thoughts?
With wagons of 5-6 players, there's probably about 1 scum on each regardless of anyone's alignment.
Do you think all the wagons have been driven by villagers with wolves just hopping on?
FWIW I'm not scum reading Fulcrum, just repeatedly saying I fully believe she'd be able to fool me. If I ignore my repsect/fear of her scum game I'd have her as a squishy town lean.
Anyway:
Silver is town enough for today for all the reasons stated earlier and his vote count digging today.
Last is town for a a few reasons but most strongly a linguistic tell.
Vez is town for the mason claim.
KJ is town for the Rhand saga.
Asta is town for being an agengdaless presence. He could be coached into it but it would require stellar play from him and one of Tom, Nacho, or Fulcrum as a buddy. Maybe Gemma, Axel, Rhand, or DK could pull it off but I think it probably would have to be one of those first 3.
Gemma, DK, Vaimes, Nacho, and Fulcrum are players I'm not interested toDay at all. They've given enough that they either impress me as generally townie without a defining moment or have a moment that gives me doubts they're scum but no overall impression. Vaimes is the closest falling out of that group mostly by peer pressure and self doubt.
That leaves me with Jackrito!slot, KCC, Rhand, Keldeo, Axel, and tom as my pool for toDay. Going to a quick dive on each of those except tom and JacklancerX an see if anything sticks out.
Humm.
Have you talked about the other votes on the Vez wagon, and why they weren't as suspicious as KCC's?
Reads list is
Looking back at Mind, I actually have a decent town read on that entire wagon. Maybe that is where we should be going
Not very well, but familiar with you. We were in Tiny Hunt together and I've read several of your games here. And others I'm more familiar with have spoken very highly of your scum game (Tom, Vaimes, and Gemma off the top of my head but I think I remember Voxx and Reg speaking highly of it as well). So enough to have an opinion but not enough to be familiar with the ins and outs of your play.
You're voting the mindreaver replacement and this post kind of reads like you don't realize that?
Ah.
You didn't treat me like this in that game, iirc. You were paranoid of me, but not talking up my scum game. What changed?
No, I know where my vote is, I've just been strongly considering moving it. Keldeo made a good first impression, and I kinda want to see more there. But between Minds posts, and how pure that wagon looks, and how it fell apart, this might still be the best chance
There I knew you worse than everyone else so it didn't make sense to parrot that idea. This game I'm probably in either the top 3rd or half in familiarity with you and there is some value to attempting to moderate the reads of people who don't know you.
Why does the wagon being pure matter to you? I understand the concept, using page 1 reads on a fairly strong wagon to supplement your read is pretty confirmation bias-y.
In what way is the wagon falling apart indicative of M1nd being scum? If you think the wagon was all town then it was just a matter of townies unvoting unless I'm missing something in your thought process here.
If I get the opportunity, I'll spend time going through DK's posts a little more in depth later.
/pop out.
@LW: Same questions to you - I thought your mantra from before was that an early Vaimes lynch was dumb and would only go through if he was town and there was a scumteam around to take care of town's stupidity? Why are you pressing it now? What's wrong with a KCC lynch?
@VAIMES: Time to press your vote harder or find somewhere else to go. Axelrod never gets lynched here with what's been put against him so far so either push harder or come join KCC; it's about that time!
@Grapefruit: See above; goes double for you since you're a replacement and probably don't have the clout at this point to force through an entirely new lynch with 2 days left to deadline.
@Axelrod, Killjoy: Not voting at this point is bad - Axel, really don't understand why you unvoted Kitty (or why you're still twiddling your thumbs at this point, you've thought she was scum the whole game and now you're backing off??? Killjoy - you're questioning people, still trying to develop a read in kind of a laissez-faire way but that time has come and gone and it's time to vote to kill now. If we get an ACTUAL lynch wagon formed now, we'll have the opportunity to get a claim, react to the claim, redirect or confirm the lynch as needed but if we continue sitting on our asses we *might* get a claim and we *might* CFD somewhere else but we also might no lynch and I don't need to lecture anyone here (except maybe Asta) with how absolutely horrible that is for town.
there isnt anything wrong with the KCC lynch, like she isnt super bad or super great, there really isnt a reason for me to go against it
The problem is I dont really see a counter train to it
and I still dont see a reason for her claim if she was a wolf
and in regards to Vaimes, maybe I said it was dumb? idk, its still never going to go through, probably regardless of his alignment
Vaimes is trying super hard to either break his polarized meta, or he is trying super hard to fake his tone, either way I personally think its a great lynch given that I cant 100% lock him as town after 3 weeks
on another note, I do have a personal vendetta against him due to how he always targets me
Like, again, maybe it's not who you are, but we haven't ever played together as far as I can tell - my style as town this game can very easily be described as "bipolar as all hell" and last night a piece of my push on you was "I'm townreading everyone outside of 4 people" and you weren't bothered by that whatsoever? You've spent effort in the thread, I can tell you care about the game, but the only thing you've really posted about who we should kill instead of you are soft nudges on DK and Keldeo?
Please. If you are town. Give me something. Push scum. Don't worry about defending yourself. Don't worry about being wrong. Push scum. Or give me more of your thought process on who you think might be scum and percentages of being scum and who you feel good about town and who you feel great about town; we've gone back and forth where I'm confident that you won't change my mind by defense alone. So, if you are town, I need you to pour yourself into reads, reads, and nothing but reads - I get that you think that expressing reads is pro-scum but transparency is how town finds each other and I can link you game after game after game that town has won because they've been transparent and open; I can show you games where I've posted over 500 times as scum but got utterly wrecked anyways because town has been transparent. You are on the fast track to death at the moment; put your cards on the table.
If this is all you're getting from the last few pages then I think you need to dig a little deeper; please don't do to me what people did to you after the first Rhand post and just dismiss someone right after they put a bunch of work in.