IRL exhaustion? How available will you be from now until deadline, at least to respond to different wagons? Am fine with going with KCC if you feel strongly enough about that. I don't have the same scumread on her you do but I think your points on her are valid.
I can't really get a handle on how you feel about KCC. You two seem to have gone back and forth a lot, with you doing a lot of criticizing her, but she's not really a scumread?
I don't like dk's posts primarily because of how sterile they feel.
DK votes vezok, posts a big case on vezok. Vezok claims Mason, so he looks at the wagon who voted Vezok and chooses someone who sheeped his case.
Most of it is reasonable, but it suffers the same problem that Kitty's pushes did in that they're all convenient.
Sterile is a good word, how I'm seeing him as well. I don't the way he's been focusing on Sloth's activity and the comments fulcrum and I made about that make sense as a genuine line of inquiry - his Sloth/Grape read feels slimy. I don't feel like he's hunting in an active way, especially with the mismatch between him saying he's gonna be around and active for the rest of the day but instead seeming completely rudderless / making no noticeable attempts to dive back into things - sure it's been less than 48 hours but, nothing at all? Eh. I also hate the way he shaded the entire vezok wagon after being the one to push it. He also had that redacted scum read, which he never ended up talking about, don't have any sense that that was a real read he had and cared about.
Well here is my daily check-in post, in which I look to see if anything (significant) has happened, see that the answer is "no" and leave.
Unfortunately, this is turning out to be one of those games for me. 1300+ posts on D1 is just brutal. You may correctly point out that I am not doing anything to "make something happen" myself or to make the day shorter, but I just can't. I feel like even voting right now is irresponsible. I'd just be sheeping someone or jumping the biggest wagon for the sake of it being the biggest wagon, and that feels all kinds of wrong.
I am busy, and had family visiting all Thanksgiving, but that's not really an excuse. All I can say is, it will get better for me later. It almost always does. Sometimes I'm engaged the whole way through, but that is not happening here.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
IRL exhaustion? How available will you be from now until deadline, at least to respond to different wagons? Am fine with going with KCC if you feel strongly enough about that. I don't have the same scumread on her you do but I think your points on her are valid.
I can't really get a handle on how you feel about KCC. You two seem to have gone back and forth a lot, with you doing a lot of criticizing her, but she's not really a scumread?
I mean, I don't have anything original to say after Nacho. His thing about how KCC has been treating me and her lack of doing things are my main concerns with her. I just don't feel like I have any smoking gun or similar thing with her that tips me from "eh don't really like this and have concerns" to "yeah i really think this behavior is scum indicative".
like - she's spent more time defending herself from Gemma and I than she has explaining her read on M1ndreaver and trying to ramp up support for the wagon.
and maybe that is just her playstyle,
1. Mind had 10 posts, most of which were when I wasn't here
2. Yes, that's exactly my playstyle. I love being wagoned and interacting that way
but even the defending is empty - there's no bite, there's no actual pushback - like again she even called Gemma and M1nd w/w but when she said it, it seemed flat and she dropped it immediately after?
That w/w read was a snap thought, not a strong read I had convinced myself on. And if I'm not exactly biting back, it's because I'm leaning towards you being just wrong rather than scum
Also, pushing against the grain isn't really a thing I do, unless I think there's an actual point to it
@Gemma re: Killjoy I don't really have much to add to my earlier meta post. There's a bunch of stuff I don't think he does as a wolf, like bulldogging you over not explaining your Nacho read early, the Mindreaver wagon analysis I mentioned before, this post:
Also: I'm pretty sure the scum aren't entirely in [Gemma, Nacho, Asta, Slothful, fulcrum, Axel(?), dkings(?), Mind(?)] due to the fact that I haven't really been scumread yet. If the entirety of the scumteam was in there, they would either A)not know my playstyle or B) think I was still was easy mislynch and would probably at least have tried at some point before now.
This won't matter unless three of them flip scum, but it's still probably true.
He's just casting a very wide net and producing thoughts I don't think really occur to him as a wolf.
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I want a counterwagon to KCC that isn't Vaimes or Grape
Vote: dkingsland967
I'm... persuadable to lunching tom, it's not a slam dunk but he has a lot of wolf equity
would lunch jackrito on policy but not feel great about it
Also: I'm pretty sure the scum aren't entirely in [Gemma, Nacho, Asta, Slothful, fulcrum, Axel(?), dkings(?), Mind(?)] due to the fact that I haven't really been scumread yet. If the entirety of the scumteam was in there, they would either A)not know my playstyle or B) think I was still was easy mislynch and would probably at least have tried at some point before now.
This won't matter unless three of them flip scum, but it's still probably true.
He's just casting a very wide net and producing thoughts I don't think really occur to him as a wolf.
I think this a good point. The killjoy post is paranoid and out there in an actual scumhunting way. Negative feels rescinded. (@Gemma)
I had a pretty good feeling about dk's intro to the game, iirc. Will have to iso him.
This is a really solid point, and Slothful's disappearing act doesn't look great for that slot considering both Gemma and fulcrum said they believed he could be active if he wanted to be.
Until it became known that he had IRL issues. Scumreading him for that is a bad idea regardless.
Erm... what happened here?
That is called nuance. There is a difference between scumreading someone and having no reason not to lynch them.
Also: I'm pretty sure the scum aren't entirely in [Gemma, Nacho, Asta, Slothful, fulcrum, Axel(?), dkings(?), Mind(?)] due to the fact that I haven't really been scumread yet. If the entirety of the scumteam was in there, they would either A)not know my playstyle or B) think I was still was easy mislynch and would probably at least have tried at some point before now.
This won't matter unless three of them flip scum, but it's still probably true.
He's just casting a very wide net and producing thoughts I don't think really occur to him as a wolf.
I think this a good point. The killjoy post is paranoid and out there in an actual scumhunting way. Negative feels rescinded. (@Gemma)
I had a pretty good feeling about dk's intro to the game, iirc. Will have to iso him.
This I could do. I doubt my wagon was pure. I really like Asta. Nacho still seems okay. Dk probably makes more sense than Gemma
Why don't you just come out and say why you think I'm mafia rather than coyly toying with the idea and pretending you think it's a real thing you would pursue.
Also: I'm pretty sure the scum aren't entirely in [Gemma, Nacho, Asta, Slothful, fulcrum, Axel(?), dkings(?), Mind(?)] due to the fact that I haven't really been scumread yet. If the entirety of the scumteam was in there, they would either A)not know my playstyle or B) think I was still was easy mislynch and would probably at least have tried at some point before now.
This won't matter unless three of them flip scum, but it's still probably true.
He's just casting a very wide net and producing thoughts I don't think really occur to him as a wolf.
I think this a good point. The killjoy post is paranoid and out there in an actual scumhunting way. Negative feels rescinded. (@Gemma)
I had a pretty good feeling about dk's intro to the game, iirc. Will have to iso him.
I already asked you about exactly this post
Please do talk about dk.
Garcia / do whatever you like, babe.
Ok! It sounds like dk literally just didn't see the mod announcement about Sloth.
Also, I'm so good, I didn't even need you pointing out that post for me.
Can you point out a dc case if you've made one?
I'm going to talk about Tom for a bit. I don't really want to fully defend him, because I'm not sold on the town read and some pressure on him could be nice. But, I think it's valuable to look at the way he's treated me. He's been scumreading me, I think, since my first post of the game, and voted me early on. Scum!tom has a reason to not push me there, because he knows I will absolutely follow through on lynching him for being useless, and have the ability to drag Gemma and Vaimes along with me. He might have decided to do anyway to a. get me to townread his push or b. to tilt me. A is unlikely, because he hasn't explained it at all, as far as I've seen, it's just been a thing. B felt more likely early on, but when I was upfront with him about how he was tilting me and how I need to him to stop, he did. I think, in that place, he could have kept pushing there and kept me off balance, without risking mtgsers opposing him, because my tone was probably something only people who read me reasonably well could have gotten there. Add that in the way he looked at me talking to Gemma (calling one part pockety, and another part genuine, with the shrug) and I think his read on me is probably real and not an attempt to manipulate. I can try to explain this better if it's not making sense.
That is a good point, agree scum!tom doesn't tend to care about tunneling you or your tilt. (Am really unused to you posting in big ass paragraphs, what the hell.)
That is a good point, agree scum!tom doesn't tend to care about tunneling you or your tilt. (Am really unused to you posting in big ass paragraphs, what the hell.)
Sorry catching up now. Spent the afternoon having a doctor chew me out because he failed to communicate to anyone. So that's been fun.
Anyway the DK votes are alarming to me. So I scanned his ISO to see if they were justified by earlier stuff and they don't seem to be.
@Gemma and Nacho what am I missing? I've reas Nachos catch up series twice now and I can't point to a reason why DK was grouped with tom, Jack, and KCC. I'm seeing DK as actively townie.
@KJ my read of you is that you're not scum without Rhand for the way you reacted to his push and not scum with him for the way he made the push.
I hate too townie to be town reads even more than I hate twtbaw reads. Sterile and doing sane solving things does not a wolf make... If you can pair that with evidence of agenda, then I'll listen to you. But I'm really not willing to accept paranoid, gut, too good to be true reads while you're claiming to have a tight town block that only doesn't include approximately 4 people. Plus his Vez vote wasn't overly convenient since it basically started the world thing.
@KJ I don't have strong opinions on Fulcrum right now. Just fear and respect and leans.
As for tom I'm not really sure what else to say. I think he's scum. I think his votes come from his scum playstyle. And I think his handling of me isn't from a place of ignorance. He just feels off and incurious to me.
Fulcrum is terrifying and I'm never going to town clear them but nowhere near enough to vote them yet.
Hey, man, what the hell?
I mean that with nothing but respect and admiration.
I realize now the wording was poor. I mean your scum game is very strong and I'm not talented enough to sort you. You as a person seem very nice and not at all terrifying.
I hate too townie to be town reads even more than I hate twtbaw reads. Sterile and doing sane solving things does not a wolf make... If you can pair that with evidence of agenda, then I'll listen to you. But I'm really not willing to accept paranoid, gut, too good to be true reads while you're claiming to have a tight town block that only doesn't include approximately 4 people. Plus his Vez vote wasn't overly convenient since it basically started the world thing.
I legitimately cannot make sense of this paragraph. To be honest most of your posts are borderline nonsensical to me, and I don't know if that's me problem or what's going on but I feel like I'm reading moral philosophy when I go through some your posts. Like are we in the same game / on the same earth? I am so confused.
I hate too townie to be town reads even more than I hate twtbaw reads. Sterile and doing sane solving things does not a wolf make... If you can pair that with evidence of agenda, then I'll listen to you. But I'm really not willing to accept paranoid, gut, too good to be true reads while you're claiming to have a tight town block that only doesn't include approximately 4 people. Plus his Vez vote wasn't overly convenient since it basically started the world thing.
I legitimately cannot make sense of this paragraph. To be honest most of your posts are borderline nonsensical to me, and I don't know if that's me problem or what's going on but I feel like I'm reading moral philosophy when I go through some your posts. Like are we in the same game / on the same earth? I am so confused.
It's probably a me thing. I'm not sure. It makes sense in my head but I've recently come to realize that I'm an awful writer and often fail to communicate my points well (or at all). And I'm very prone to word vomit.
Anyway the point I was trying to make was that I disagreed with Nacho's 1295 because I don't like scum reads that begin and end with "there isn't anything scummy but it's too blah to be townie."
I think you're not understanding his read, or confusing his read on tom for his read on dk. He didn't say there wasn't anything scummy about dk, he said that dk has been sterile - that is different to "blah". He also pointed out that after he posted things about vezok that he presumably believed in, he turned around and scumread someone for agreeing with him, and did so in a kind of arbitrary way. Why did someone who voted with him have to be scum? It's like he invented that assumption in order to scumread someone. Why KCC over everyone else? She's a very convenient target for scum!dk, and there was no real reason for him to think she was scum over anyone else who voted vezok, he just had his earlier suspicion of her as justification.
I think we're cross talking again. I get that Nacho meant sterile to mean carefully managed to avoid offense or something along that line but that is a tone read. And I'm not really going to accept a tone read as the crux of a case.
As for the vote on KCC, I don't really see how KCC was a noticably more "convenient" target than Mind or tom. As for the dissonance of voting people who sheeped him it's not like it didn't have a massive reason to reevaluate. The Mason claim changes things, I don't think it's inherently suspect to poke at sheep on a wagon that's fallen apart. It's part of why I'm voting tom and I'm not being scum read for that.
Gemma I phrased that poorly, I knew that KCC was responding to the push. I wanted to know what KCC thought of the push as an entity above and beyond something to just defend against (these are not the right words but maybe this still makes sense?) and what she thought of Nacho in relation to his push, given the way she was defending herself while not really seeming to delve into his possible motivations or anything beyond addressing its content, as he said. I'm still not too sure how she got to where she is on Nacho but from "Nacho still seems okay" it seems like his push didn't move the needle all that much.
I think I'm straight-up too tired to finish catchup right now, sorry. I have a good chunk of time tomorrow night to be here.
Think it goes a bit deeper than a tone read Grape. If Nacho's read is the same as mine, tone doesn't even enter into it. I think dk's tone this game is just his tone and has nothing to do with his alignment.
Think it goes a bit deeper than a tone read Grape. If Nacho's read is the same as mine, tone doesn't even enter into it. I think dk's tone this game is just his tone and has nothing to do with his alignment.
It's part of why I'm voting tom and I'm not being scum read for that.
(Yes you are.) (... the fact that you're not aware of that is probably >rand town?)
Makes sense, Keldeo.
To my knowledge the scum reads were mostly for my abrupt flip on silver and reaction to you or Tom's invented TMI. If I'm wrong then fair enough but I'm pretty sure most everyone who said anything about my being scummy was talking about that.
As for it being a tone read I'm not sure I can square the idea of him being sterile not being a tone read at all. Do you disagree with the definition I gave for sterile? Because if that's accurate it's the definition of tone read.
Rhand voted you for voting tom, tom accused you of TMI.
dk's sterility is his disinclination to produce anything game-changing, like a debate moderator handcuffed by a network committed to being as completely bland and centrist as possible so as to alienate as few viewers as possible.
Rhand voted you for voting tom, tom accused you of TMI.
dk's sterility is his disinclination to produce anything game-changing, like a debate moderator handcuffed by a network committed to being as completely bland and centrist as possible so as to alienate as few viewers as possible.
I mean the fact that he started the Vez wagon disputes that theory of events.
As for Rhand fair enough I'd forgotten he voted me. In that case I'll revise my statement to be that suspecting KCC after the Vez wagon blew up isn't suspect because there were other low hanging fruit.
Rhand voted you for voting tom, tom accused you of TMI.
dk's sterility is his disinclination to produce anything game-changing, like a debate moderator handcuffed by a network committed to being as completely bland and centrist as possible so as to alienate as few viewers as possible.
I mean the fact that he started the Vez wagon disputes that theory of events.
Eh, he made that post at my prompting, kind of diminishes his agency in that. What else has he done?
Lots of text and nothing seems to have been said apart from a semantic discussion on what sterile means.
Can someone explain me in simple words where the dkings wagon comes from?
Why don't you just come out and say why you think I'm mafia rather than coyly toying with the idea and pretending you think it's a real thing you would pursue.
Because that's a needless distraction and waste of time. We need to decide Today's lynch, and it's clearly never going to be you. Not that I'd even want it to be, I'm still deciding where I even am on you.
Gemma I phrased that poorly, I knew that KCC was responding to the push. I wanted to know what KCC thought of the push as an entity above and beyond something to just defend against
You worded the question fine, I knew what you were asking, and thought I mostly covered it in my response to Nacho.
-But Nacho's push is mostly the questions I expect from people not familiar with me, and it feels natural how he floats between them and ties thoughts together. I was a little concerned with some things being pulled out of context a bit, but I don't think that's deliberate, I think it's just from playing catch up.
I am confused about why people are finding it difficult to read or comprehend things about dk.
Nacho:
I don't like his posts, they feel sterile
He cased vezok then voted someone who sheeped his case.
His pushes are convenient.
Gemma:
His treatment of Sloth feels slimy.
He's not actively hunting.
Promised content, hasn't delivered.
Shaded the vezok wagon after pushing it.
Voted KCC thoughtlessly.
Had a secret scum read that he never followed up on - fake?
Some of these are reasons not to townread him, some of them are reasons to scumread him. The main common point for both Nacho and me is this:
Looks like Mindreaver is gonna be replaced, so I'm going to park my vote here for now. I think it's very likely that exactly one of the rush votes after I posted my case on vezok came from scum, and KCC's is the most dubious when coupled with earlier play.
Why is it very likely? He gives no reason for why he thinks this. The scum motivation here isn't very mysterious: to use the fact that people pushed on a town slot as a way to push them, without actually examining why they pushed on the slot, ignoring the fact that he also pushed on the town slot. KCC is an easy wagon to push, he had already voiced suspicion of her, so he votes her just because, without even looking at why she voted vezok.
Whether or not this is a scummy thing that town!dk is doing or a scummy thing that scum!dk is doing remains to be seen.
Why don't you just come out and say why you think I'm mafia rather than coyly toying with the idea and pretending you think it's a real thing you would pursue.
Because that's a needless distraction and waste of time. We need to decide Today's lynch, and it's clearly never going to be you. Not that I'd even want it to be, I'm still deciding where I even am on you.
Then stop gnashing your teeth and making subtle jabs at me.
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Unfortunately, this is turning out to be one of those games for me. 1300+ posts on D1 is just brutal. You may correctly point out that I am not doing anything to "make something happen" myself or to make the day shorter, but I just can't. I feel like even voting right now is irresponsible. I'd just be sheeping someone or jumping the biggest wagon for the sake of it being the biggest wagon, and that feels all kinds of wrong.
I am busy, and had family visiting all Thanksgiving, but that's not really an excuse. All I can say is, it will get better for me later. It almost always does. Sometimes I'm engaged the whole way through, but that is not happening here.
that means we should vote Vaimes today
plz and thanks
2. Yes, that's exactly my playstyle. I love being wagoned and interacting that way
That w/w read was a snap thought, not a strong read I had convinced myself on. And if I'm not exactly biting back, it's because I'm leaning towards you being just wrong rather than scum
Also, pushing against the grain isn't really a thing I do, unless I think there's an actual point to it
Yeah, I'm not excited about it, but that's probably where I end up
Gemma/vezok
Nacho
Last/Asta
Vaimes
Silver/fulcrum
Grape/Killjoy
Jack/Axel
Rhand/KCC/tom/Keldeo
dk
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I want a counterwagon to KCC that isn't Vaimes or Grape
Vote: dkingsland967
I'm... persuadable to lunching tom, it's not a slam dunk but he has a lot of wolf equity
would lunch jackrito on policy but not feel great about it
KCC, if you end up on me, I will omgus you and we can 1v1. I don't want to see your role in action that badly.
Yeah you do, it's gonna be so much fun
This I could do. I doubt my wagon was pure. I really like Asta. Nacho still seems okay. Dk probably makes more sense than Gemma
I think this a good point. The killjoy post is paranoid and out there in an actual scumhunting way. Negative feels rescinded. (@Gemma)
I had a pretty good feeling about dk's intro to the game, iirc. Will have to iso him.
You cool if I Garcia this?
Please do talk about dk.
Garcia / do whatever you like, babe.
What was your angle there Keldeo?
Ok! It sounds like dk literally just didn't see the mod announcement about Sloth.
Also, I'm so good, I didn't even need you pointing out that post for me.
Can you point out a dc case if you've made one?
I'm going to talk about Tom for a bit. I don't really want to fully defend him, because I'm not sold on the town read and some pressure on him could be nice. But, I think it's valuable to look at the way he's treated me. He's been scumreading me, I think, since my first post of the game, and voted me early on. Scum!tom has a reason to not push me there, because he knows I will absolutely follow through on lynching him for being useless, and have the ability to drag Gemma and Vaimes along with me. He might have decided to do anyway to a. get me to townread his push or b. to tilt me. A is unlikely, because he hasn't explained it at all, as far as I've seen, it's just been a thing. B felt more likely early on, but when I was upfront with him about how he was tilting me and how I need to him to stop, he did. I think, in that place, he could have kept pushing there and kept me off balance, without risking mtgsers opposing him, because my tone was probably something only people who read me reasonably well could have gotten there. Add that in the way he looked at me talking to Gemma (calling one part pockety, and another part genuine, with the shrug) and I think his read on me is probably real and not an attempt to manipulate. I can try to explain this better if it's not making sense.
Hey, man, what the hell?
I wall, sometimes. I'm a waller.
Can I help you do more things?
Not now. You know why.
Anyway the DK votes are alarming to me. So I scanned his ISO to see if they were justified by earlier stuff and they don't seem to be.
@Gemma and Nacho what am I missing? I've reas Nachos catch up series twice now and I can't point to a reason why DK was grouped with tom, Jack, and KCC. I'm seeing DK as actively townie.
@KJ my read of you is that you're not scum without Rhand for the way you reacted to his push and not scum with him for the way he made the push.
I hate too townie to be town reads even more than I hate twtbaw reads. Sterile and doing sane solving things does not a wolf make... If you can pair that with evidence of agenda, then I'll listen to you. But I'm really not willing to accept paranoid, gut, too good to be true reads while you're claiming to have a tight town block that only doesn't include approximately 4 people. Plus his Vez vote wasn't overly convenient since it basically started the world thing.
@KJ I don't have strong opinions on Fulcrum right now. Just fear and respect and leans.
As for tom I'm not really sure what else to say. I think he's scum. I think his votes come from his scum playstyle. And I think his handling of me isn't from a place of ignorance. He just feels off and incurious to me.
I mean that with nothing but respect and admiration.
I realize now the wording was poor. I mean your scum game is very strong and I'm not talented enough to sort you. You as a person seem very nice and not at all terrifying.
With 17 Alive it takes 9 to Lynch
It's probably a me thing. I'm not sure. It makes sense in my head but I've recently come to realize that I'm an awful writer and often fail to communicate my points well (or at all). And I'm very prone to word vomit.
Anyway the point I was trying to make was that I disagreed with Nacho's 1295 because I don't like scum reads that begin and end with "there isn't anything scummy but it's too blah to be townie."
As for the vote on KCC, I don't really see how KCC was a noticably more "convenient" target than Mind or tom. As for the dissonance of voting people who sheeped him it's not like it didn't have a massive reason to reevaluate. The Mason claim changes things, I don't think it's inherently suspect to poke at sheep on a wagon that's fallen apart. It's part of why I'm voting tom and I'm not being scum read for that.
I think I'm straight-up too tired to finish catchup right now, sorry. I have a good chunk of time tomorrow night to be here.
(Yes you are.) (... the fact that you're not aware of that is probably >rand town?)
Makes sense, Keldeo.
To my knowledge the scum reads were mostly for my abrupt flip on silver and reaction to you or Tom's invented TMI. If I'm wrong then fair enough but I'm pretty sure most everyone who said anything about my being scummy was talking about that.
As for it being a tone read I'm not sure I can square the idea of him being sterile not being a tone read at all. Do you disagree with the definition I gave for sterile? Because if that's accurate it's the definition of tone read.
dk's sterility is his disinclination to produce anything game-changing, like a debate moderator handcuffed by a network committed to being as completely bland and centrist as possible so as to alienate as few viewers as possible.
I mean the fact that he started the Vez wagon disputes that theory of events.
As for Rhand fair enough I'd forgotten he voted me. In that case I'll revise my statement to be that suspecting KCC after the Vez wagon blew up isn't suspect because there were other low hanging fruit.
Well that's what I get for reading things out of order...
Can someone explain me in simple words where the dkings wagon comes from?
-But Nacho's push is mostly the questions I expect from people not familiar with me, and it feels natural how he floats between them and ties thoughts together. I was a little concerned with some things being pulled out of context a bit, but I don't think that's deliberate, I think it's just from playing catch up.
Nacho:
I don't like his posts, they feel sterile
He cased vezok then voted someone who sheeped his case.
His pushes are convenient.
Gemma:
His treatment of Sloth feels slimy.
He's not actively hunting.
Promised content, hasn't delivered.
Shaded the vezok wagon after pushing it.
Voted KCC thoughtlessly.
Had a secret scum read that he never followed up on - fake?
Some of these are reasons not to townread him, some of them are reasons to scumread him. The main common point for both Nacho and me is this:
Why is it very likely? He gives no reason for why he thinks this. The scum motivation here isn't very mysterious: to use the fact that people pushed on a town slot as a way to push them, without actually examining why they pushed on the slot, ignoring the fact that he also pushed on the town slot. KCC is an easy wagon to push, he had already voiced suspicion of her, so he votes her just because, without even looking at why she voted vezok.
Whether or not this is a scummy thing that town!dk is doing or a scummy thing that scum!dk is doing remains to be seen.