the defense, "I would never do this as scum", is such an easy defense to make as a wolf honestly
you can die, I dont really care, this game-state is brutal, and as long as its not one my of town reads, or me, then w/e
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Silver I think is probably town because I can see his full solving process fleshed out often. I think if he's scum he has an exceptional attention to detail that he really wouldn't need to be successful here. I haven't heard legends of his scum game.
Lastwhisper goes from unbelievably aggressive to just kind of a duck to rudderless in short periods of time. I don't think that it's coming from scum because it's so agendaless, counterproductive to him being scum.
I understand most of where Proph's coming from. He should probably be given the opportunity to catch up and do *****; Tom's reasoning for him being scum because he didn't have things to contribute when catching up with half of the ***** show is not great. The mechanical reasoning vezok alluded to earlier needs to be outed.
Vaimes isn't scum. He's being a bit whiny overall but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's scum; I don't think that his scum game has the depth that his town game has. I don't think pushes an incorrect case on me if scum (and I certainly don't think he rubs his wrongness in everyone's face immediately before he dies if he's scum here). None of the talk of him using his role improperly has been mechanically sound as far as I can tell - is there really a way to use a role that's basically a crapshoot in a pro-town way? Not really. There are small niggles in that I don't remember what he's done outside of me but those niggles are the type that should be addressed after more pressing things have been settled.
I didn't like KCC's early game, but I liked her play immediately surrounding her death. The "**** you town" energy surrounding her final posts was good, and I really don't think y'all understand how rare it is for scum to put in energy & effort when they are absolutely ****ed is, how easy it would have been for her to crumple after the CC. It's a lot easier to view her early play as town through the lens of someone who doesn't like to be transparent with reads because it lets scum take advantage.
Rhand is probably scum here. I liked his early posting when we were vibing and he was kind of defending me but he flipped when everyone else flipped because he has to. When scrutinizing his posts a little deeper, I don't see much reasoning that isn't garbage; and he will trumpet from all sides on how his reasoning is always weird as town and people pick on it but I didn't have half as many head scratching moments when reading his ISO in Modern & Watchmen and he sure as hell never used "my early reads are good" as justification for any of his reads. His questions lack barb and they lack scum motivation, like - fulcrum says that I'm hiding behind Gemma and misrepresenting her and he just kind of weakly defends himself from me and he can't see why I'm interacting with fulcrum and not him? Really? Him attacking me because I said "y'all" is a fat stack of bull*****, it's not Rhand-town being crazy, it's just garbage reasoning being used by scum on someone he'd like to see mislynched.
Dkingsland hasn't done anything townie at all. Dkings hasn't done anything townie at all. DK hasn't done anything townie but he claims BG in a ****ed game such as this and now he's untouchable??? No.
Keldeo's been extremely thoughtful and genuine in his posting in this thread, I'd ***** myself if he flipped scum here. People also attempted to meta mind and say that his scum game else where was similar to his game here and that's not true at all.
Axelrod had a lot of "I AM AN INDIGNANT" townie posting that owned early, Axelrod was the first that started picking up on Kitty being townie when she was being CC'd, the first to say express doubt before she went down which I don't actually think scum does there because it doesn't do anything good for him. I think his posting, with the exception of super early game when he just sat on his hands and pushed KCC, his posting has been fantastic.
Killjoy is prolly town, he's has strong presence the whole game and also has good paranoid townie moments for most of it. This is one of those that I have little niggles on but I don't really think they should be worried about until others are dead.
Fulcrum is slimy. My biggest read change that seems to be brewing comes from fulcrum-town to fulcrum-scum. I don't like her interactions with me today, I don't think I like her interactions with Gemma yesterday.
Asta seems pure but the read is gut. I don't have as much for him being town as I do for others.
the defense, "I would never do this as scum", is such an easy defense to make as a wolf honestly
you can die, I dont really care, this game-state is brutal, and as long as its not one my of town reads, or me, then w/e
You won't grow as a player until you learn to take responsibility for your piece of the gamestate.
What have you done to make Day 2 better? (Absolutely nothing). Complaining to make it end here and now damages morale and makes the game thread a more depressing place to post, so...?
If you are self-aware, you know what your scum game looks like, you know what your town game looks like. I can lie about the differences all I like but, again, anyone who knows me realizes that my scum game doesn't look like this. Anyone who has any competency in meta'ing could realize fairly quickly that my scum game doesn't look like this. Doesn't matter how easy the defense is to make, it's just a cold hard fact - sorry if it doesn't help you but you're also not putting any effort into today so it's not like helping you is in my to do list for the day.
Everyone also seems to be ignoring that scum had the chance to shoot Vezok as a mason yesterday and instead shot Gemma. Do you think that scum shoots Gemma if she's completely wrong on me and her main couple of scumreads just because she "looks town"? No. Scum shot her because strong player yes, but also strong player who was likely on a correct path.
Hey Nacho. Good to have you back, and hope everything went alright irl.
Could you quickly confirm/deny whether you received an orb last night?
If Fulcrum is w and Vaimes v, could you talk about what you think she's doing today? Is it like... people who know Vaimes will get to him town eventually, so ruling out that ML is not a loss?
Also, I had some Rhand/fulcrum not w/w thoughts from Rhand's side that I'll grab if I have time. Might ISO fulcrum first among the people I've got left, to look at her side of things. I'm pretty torn on Rhand, I kind of want to attribute lacking in sharpness or "good reasoning" to his lower activity levels because of stuff he's got going on, but actually that doesn't make sense to do.
I don't know what fulcrum's done today because I haven't really read today (skimmed things but not really read). If I'm scum v Vaimes town here, though, I don't start pushing Vaimes as scum until I intend to mislynch him - the longer he stays in emo mode the more ammunition you have stocked to kill him and, when you're ready to do so, just hit him like a ton of bricks. No need to warn him before you start pushing and no one cares if you were calling him town before.
One more question: Does DV try to include symmetry in roles(i.e. scum roles having similar mechanics to town roles)?
Are you counterclaiming?
I’m going to be really vl/a for a week
Okay, so this is really micro, but this post makes me think Rhand doesn't know fulcrum's role. For context, at this point in time KCC has just claimed her role and fulcrum's asked some questions about MTGS setup meta. And if Rhand was fulcrum's partner and knew she was a Dreamer/variant, the thought that this question means she's counterclaiming KCC's completely unrelated ability kind of feels off to me. Also, fulcrum later characterizing this as Rhand badgering her for a claim and her wanting to stop him - the annoyance/"dude, lay off" feeling I get from that could be real even if w/w, but I think it's less likely - and to a lesser degree, fulcrum's emotions about her early interaction with Rhand saying he could read into [probably town] tom's posts.
This is assuming that fulcrum isn't lying about her role, but I feel like that's... probably a fair assumption to make? She hasn't claimed any info, but it seems a bit hard to justify not getting info if she doesn't have a way to learn what she's claimed, and fulcrum also offered to trade her abilities with Vaimes tonight.
Hate to do this after finals are (finally) over but my family is going on a trip for the holidays and my laptop charger broke. Will be a lot more active after holidays
Just random hottakes
- Yes Tom I see you, I'll get to your concerns soon
- I don't agree with lynching Nacho. Would rather see Vaimes or dkings get blasted
Oh, oops, I completely forgot that fulcrum said there are small parts of her role that are kind of similar to KCC.
If that's true too, maybe Rhand would still have interpreted the post that way even if he knew fulcrum's role? I still kind of like the read on fulcrum's emotion/frustration, but it's not as strong...
We need a consensus DK target. Do not let him choose his target.
Hey, fulcrum - in light of this, a consensus being reached on Asta as the target, and your post about how if dk's target dies we know to kill him, I'm wondering why you didn't mention dk saying he targeted someone but won't say who it is?
Meh, anyway her saying "game is easy, 1-2 scum between Rhand/Keldeo" feels too forward to be a bus, maybe.
Nacho, what I'm referring to specifically with "what fulcrum's done today" is her towncasing possible shot target Vaimes, saying that if people were between shooting her/Vaimes then they should shoot her and clear Vaimes when she flips town, etc.
Overall, fulcrum is. Probably someone I'd have a hard time getting a bead on regardless because O have a hard time getting into her head from her usually style of posting. Maybe her consideration of tom d1 and of Vaimes today give me solvy vibes.
I think what sticks out to me the most is what seems like an inconsistent treatment/POV on some things. 1220 is asking Vaimes for a case to sway her but that seems like a weird question to ask while she's voting Vaimes. She says EOD1 that Axel could check dk's bodyguard claim, but at this point she has hard CCed Axel and apparently doesn't think he's town? She doesn't really follow up on Axel today either and I know she posted about that but... mmmeh.
796 is leading dk to a scum read on probably town grapefruit (Sloth slot) - ~not w/w?
I am kind of falling sleep and don't think I can do more tonight, sorry :/ If vezok doesn't shoot I have time starting Monday to go through everyone I haven't; if she does shoot I can do that overNight I guess. Quick takes off memory are: I have not fully processed Nacho's recent posting but... mm. I feel like Nacho is a player who I might always TR. I think Nacho was just generally ~solvy~ and made posts it felt like he believed in on day 1, and has made posts like that now, but I also think that he is probably capable of doing that as a wolf too. But in the end I don't really think Vezok should shoot Nacho. Or Vaimes because I feel like fulcrum if w spewed him? I think my top shot choices are fulcrum/Proph probably? It feels impolite to shoot Proph now, when he has V/LA that ends before the end of the phase. KCC I just still feel is town I think. Oh I guess dkings exists but I just... don't have much of an opinion on him. I started to ISO him and just felt like everything existed. idk.
I'm awake. I'm shooting nacho in about two hours. Nothing has really convinced me that I should shoot someone else. Vaimes is still a close second. A ton of people have expressed that they don't want nacho dead.
Well the choice is between nacho and Vaimes. The people who post before I shoot should choose one of them and if there's overwhelming votes for Vaimes I'd change my shot.
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Well, silly seems wrong. You can disagree, but really only if you're strongly scum-reading him. Otherwise Mason is kind of exactly what you would want in this spot.
I want someone I trust as town + someone whose reads I trust. Do I trust vezok's process as town? No.
I saw this again and had to comment. This is a pretty preposterous statement to make when half of the ***** that happened yesterday was because you counter claimed KCC for no reason.
There's also the fact that you changed the season to summer without consulting with anyone and wouldn't you know it summer is exactly the season that unlocks the day kill for scum.
The fact that the day kill came right after nacho switched to summer is just too much for me.
well i guess we'll find out now but im really not sure how thats relevant unless the dayvig was up for d1 lynch. Since it would have just happened today instead
@asta is that a correct interpretation of your #2884? I read it as narrowed two lists down and came to two top choices but you werent actually explicit
@keldeo did i miss your answer? I remember you going through all your townreads and then just... letting the remainder float.
@everyone does this list reflect your opinion?
I think my final answer is "proph on scum equity alone, kcc/keldeo better info. Fonti somewhere in between" and dont really care THAT much between the 4
people that wanted nacho dead: vezok/dkings/rhand/vaimes/kcc
Everyone also seems to be ignoring that scum had the chance to shoot Vezok as a mason yesterday and instead shot Gemma. Do you think that scum shoots Gemma if she's completely wrong on me and her main couple of scumreads just because she "looks town"?
Idk? Kills are just wine anyways, for the most part at least
Everyone also seems to be ignoring that scum had the chance to shoot Vezok as a mason yesterday and instead shot Gemma. Do you think that scum shoots Gemma if she's completely wrong on me and her main couple of scumreads just because she "looks town"?
Idk? Kills are just wine anyways, for the most part at least
Yeah, this is bad wifom. I've done nothing of value since the beginning of the game. Even if gemma was wrong on a lot of reads (which she was, she had slothful as scum) she was townread by almost everyone and could turn around to see the error of her ways.
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Silver I think is probably town because I can see his full solving process fleshed out often. I think if he's scum he has an exceptional attention to detail that he really wouldn't need to be successful here. I haven't heard legends of his scum game.
Lastwhisper goes from unbelievably aggressive to just kind of a duck to rudderless in short periods of time. I don't think that it's coming from scum because it's so agendaless, counterproductive to him being scum.
I understand most of where Proph's coming from. He should probably be given the opportunity to catch up and do *****; Tom's reasoning for him being scum because he didn't have things to contribute when catching up with half of the ***** show is not great. The mechanical reasoning vezok alluded to earlier needs to be outed.
Vaimes isn't scum. He's being a bit whiny overall but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's scum; I don't think that his scum game has the depth that his town game has. I don't think pushes an incorrect case on me if scum (and I certainly don't think he rubs his wrongness in everyone's face immediately before he dies if he's scum here). None of the talk of him using his role improperly has been mechanically sound as far as I can tell - is there really a way to use a role that's basically a crapshoot in a pro-town way? Not really. There are small niggles in that I don't remember what he's done outside of me but those niggles are the type that should be addressed after more pressing things have been settled.
I didn't like KCC's early game, but I liked her play immediately surrounding her death. The "**** you town" energy surrounding her final posts was good, and I really don't think y'all understand how rare it is for scum to put in energy & effort when they are absolutely ****ed is, how easy it would have been for her to crumple after the CC. It's a lot easier to view her early play as town through the lens of someone who doesn't like to be transparent with reads because it lets scum take advantage.
Rhand is probably scum here. I liked his early posting when we were vibing and he was kind of defending me but he flipped when everyone else flipped because he has to. When scrutinizing his posts a little deeper, I don't see much reasoning that isn't garbage; and he will trumpet from all sides on how his reasoning is always weird as town and people pick on it but I didn't have half as many head scratching moments when reading his ISO in Modern & Watchmen and he sure as hell never used "my early reads are good" as justification for any of his reads. His questions lack barb and they lack scum motivation, like - fulcrum says that I'm hiding behind Gemma and misrepresenting her and he just kind of weakly defends himself from me and he can't see why I'm interacting with fulcrum and not him? Really? Him attacking me because I said "y'all" is a fat stack of bull*****, it's not Rhand-town being crazy, it's just garbage reasoning being used by scum on someone he'd like to see mislynched.
Dkingsland hasn't done anything townie at all. Dkings hasn't done anything townie at all. DK hasn't done anything townie but he claims BG in a ****ed game such as this and now he's untouchable??? No.
Keldeo's been extremely thoughtful and genuine in his posting in this thread, I'd ***** myself if he flipped scum here. People also attempted to meta mind and say that his scum game else where was similar to his game here and that's not true at all.
Axelrod had a lot of "I AM AN INDIGNANT" townie posting that owned early, Axelrod was the first that started picking up on Kitty being townie when she was being CC'd, the first to say express doubt before she went down which I don't actually think scum does there because it doesn't do anything good for him. I think his posting, with the exception of super early game when he just sat on his hands and pushed KCC, his posting has been fantastic.
Killjoy is prolly town, he's has strong presence the whole game and also has good paranoid townie moments for most of it. This is one of those that I have little niggles on but I don't really think they should be worried about until others are dead.
Fulcrum is slimy. My biggest read change that seems to be brewing comes from fulcrum-town to fulcrum-scum. I don't like her interactions with me today, I don't think I like her interactions with Gemma yesterday.
Asta seems pure but the read is gut. I don't have as much for him being town as I do for others.
Hate to do this after finals are (finally) over but my family is going on a trip for the holidays and my laptop charger broke. Will be a lot more active after holidays
Just random hottakes
- Yes Tom I see you, I'll get to your concerns soon
- I don't agree with lynching Nacho. Would rather see Vaimes or dkings get blasted
Less good.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Everyone also seems to be ignoring that scum had the chance to shoot Vezok as a mason yesterday and instead shot Gemma. Do you think that scum shoots Gemma if she's completely wrong on me and her main couple of scumreads just because she "looks town"?
Idk? Kills are just wine anyways, for the most part at least
Scum, if playing well, kill people who are the greatest threats to them. If Gemma was wrong on stuff like scumreading Rhand/feeling uneasy about fulcrum/townreading me, she doesn't get shot there because it means she'd do scum's work for them.
The fact that the day kill came right after nacho switched to summer is just too much for me.
Glad you brought this point up!
Didn't like Rhand bringing this up initially because it's just mudslinging - why would I, as scum, make a big gigantic production of changing the season to summer was I knew scum was getting a daykill? If that was the case, doesn't it make even more sense for me to just ram through the Lynch on KCC?
Keldeo, I see where you're coming from on fulcrum/Rhand, but two counterpoints. The first is that Rhand rolefishing fulcrum and fulcrum getting angry at him is something easily coordinated between the two of them and is not something that hurts their win condition to pull off - I see emotion from fulcrum there, but I don't think it's outside of her range.
I'm still sorry for fake counterclaiming - again, I thought KCC scumslipped and it was a combination of having time to think about it and KCC's pre-death posting that talked me off the ledge. Should have just articulated myself the normal way and it was a remarkably dumb move that I blame on lack of sleep (most of that posting came on work breaks and such) and abundance of rust. People who blame me for everything going wrong in the current gamestate and the general chaos of yesterday are failing to take responsibility for their own parts in the game (vezok, LW) and I hope that my blood can encourage them to contribute something meaningful to the game now.
Gemma died for a reason other than "everyone's townreading her and she's doing things!" - would highly suggest that people dig through her dying reads and don't let her voice die out like most town's do.
I love you Tom and appreciate your read on me this game, was surprisingly on point.
My list Day 1 was ranking your songs in terms of how I much I enjoyed them and separated into whether I heard of them or not - very glad the gift you gave to me of Peanut Butter Waffles and of course have a deep respect for the Run the Jewels songs included. I wouldn't let yourself tunnel Proph too much - there's still a high chance of him being scum but it there is anyone that I clear themselves given time it's him soooo
Since people are starting to seriously investigate and question it, I'll go ahead and confirm that DKings is, indeed, pledged to die for me. That consensus deal was a genuinely smart way to do a town clear, but I understand why DKings was hesitant to out and out claim he did it (since you don't necessarily want to announce who you're protecting? idk)
So yeah, DKings is bodyguard, and he is currently protecting me, a townie. I don't see scum doing that?
Shooting nacho feels disappointing, and I really want like. Actually good reasoning. Dayvig happening due to season change sounds too tinfoil to be reasonable. Maybe enough for an early tunnel but bluh.
Although that's probably an unfair stance to take. I can see dkings pledging to protect you, a townie, simply because there was a significant push to encourage him to protect you yesterday.
I would have rather him chose someone like Silver or Killjoy simply because they are equally townread but more likely to make an impact/die in the future, and think that would have been the townier play to make.
Since people are starting to seriously investigate and question it, I'll go ahead and confirm that DKings is, indeed, pledged to die for me. That consensus deal was a genuinely smart way to do a town clear, but I understand why DKings was hesitant to out and out claim he did it (since you don't necessarily want to announce who you're protecting? idk)
So yeah, DKings is bodyguard, and he is currently protecting me, a townie. I don't see scum doing that?
Shooting nacho feels disappointing, and I really want like. Actually good reasoning. Dayvig happening due to season change sounds too tinfoil to be reasonable. Maybe enough for an early tunnel but bluh.
Whatever, shot's called I guess.
Wait, you got told DKings had targeted you?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Like if it was confirmed that he targeted you, that would've been great information, else if that's a lie u are probably just wolves together
@nacho
Sorry I guess, I tried to see town, but that's the problem with being uninformed, I kept seeing things I didn't like and like vezok, though whole switching to summer and then the day kill just weirded me out
Everyone also seems to be ignoring that scum had the chance to shoot Vezok as a mason yesterday and instead shot Gemma. Do you think that scum shoots Gemma if she's completely wrong on me and her main couple of scumreads just because she "looks town"?
Idk? Kills are just wine anyways, for the most part at least
Scum, if playing well, kill people who are the greatest threats to them. If Gemma was wrong on stuff like scumreading Rhand/feeling uneasy about fulcrum/townreading me, she doesn't get shot there because it means she'd do scum's work for them.
ya but wolves can easily manipulate that, which is why it's not the best point to argue
After weighing the information the king for a day had come to a decision. “I declare that Nachomamma8 is guilty and that he should be summarily executed.” As the town executed Nachomamma8 the weather changed to that of Spring again.
Nachomamma8 has been executed. They were Sycorax -Town Season Illusionist.
Sycorax -Town Season Illusionist
You have the following ability:
Day Ability - Season Illusion
Once per game during the Day, you may swap the current season with the next upcoming season.
Night Two begins now and will last 48 hours. Night Two will end on December 24th at 9:45 AM PST.
The Current Season is Spring.
Day Three Start As the town rises they are reminded of the Dreams of Prophecy they had last night. The town notices they are missing one member from the previous day. The town realizes that it is Tomslogger who is missing from the day before.
Tomslogger has been killed during the night. They were Puck - Town Memory Changer
Puck - Town Memory Changer
Spring Day Ability - Annoyance
Each Day in Spring, you may target another player. That player must target you during the following Night if able.
Fall Ability - Forced Slumber
Once per game at Night in Fall, you may target another player. Prevent any other actions that would target them that Night, and prevent any actions that they would perform that Night.
Winter Ability - Hazy Memory Each Night in Winter, you may target another player and choose a season. That player will forget any abilities they have which are restricted to that season.
Day Three begins now and ends on January 7th at 12 PM PST.
The Current Season is Spring.
With 14 Alive it takes 10 to lynch. Yes, this is correct.
A burst of light that comes from the sun itself suddenly envelops Gemma. Gemma screams as the light burns here leaving nothing behind but Ash. As the town settles down and examines the body they find that they cannot tell who Gemma was. However after searching her place they do find evidence that tells the examiners that she was indeed town. Gemma has been killed they were Aurora - Town.
This is now guaranteed a scum kill I think because of the lack of info in Gemma's revealed role. I'd always assumed but, now it's for sure.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
"With 14 Alive it takes 10 to lynch." I originally thought DV saying "this is correct" was about the season thing and didn't even notice this... that's a lot of agreement :q
@KCC, this isn't urgent but whenever you have a chance, could you walk me through your Nacho progression throughout the game, and where you are thinking of looking after his town flip?
the season changed because two people died, it changes every 2 deaths
But at the start of the game, the season was Spring. Then, before there were any deaths, Nacho swapped Spring with Summer. The deaths of Gemma D1 and Nacho D2 changed the season from Summer to Spring, with the next season being Fall. So as far as I understand it, the death of Tom N2 should not have changed the season to Fall, because there was no first death during Spring.
My wolf read on each of them was a bit tinfoily because I didn't really have a thing to point to and say "he's a wolf because X"
But I was pretty sure one of them was a wolf if KCC is town because of that tied vote count where they were both voting her over dkingsland (iirc, I need to double check that vote count but from what I remember ~everyone else is probably town on her there)
It *could* be a clean wagon on a villager I guess but... yeah I need to check those votes when I get home in a few days
Announcement
It has been pointed out to me that I made a mistake in the Seasons. The Current Season has been corrected, it is still Spring. Sorry for any confusion.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
you can die, I dont really care, this game-state is brutal, and as long as its not one my of town reads, or me, then w/e
Does anyone specifically think that's scummy? I recall someone doing that. Can they tell me why?
Lastwhisper goes from unbelievably aggressive to just kind of a duck to rudderless in short periods of time. I don't think that it's coming from scum because it's so agendaless, counterproductive to him being scum.
I understand most of where Proph's coming from. He should probably be given the opportunity to catch up and do *****; Tom's reasoning for him being scum because he didn't have things to contribute when catching up with half of the ***** show is not great. The mechanical reasoning vezok alluded to earlier needs to be outed.
Vaimes isn't scum. He's being a bit whiny overall but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's scum; I don't think that his scum game has the depth that his town game has. I don't think pushes an incorrect case on me if scum (and I certainly don't think he rubs his wrongness in everyone's face immediately before he dies if he's scum here). None of the talk of him using his role improperly has been mechanically sound as far as I can tell - is there really a way to use a role that's basically a crapshoot in a pro-town way? Not really. There are small niggles in that I don't remember what he's done outside of me but those niggles are the type that should be addressed after more pressing things have been settled.
I didn't like KCC's early game, but I liked her play immediately surrounding her death. The "**** you town" energy surrounding her final posts was good, and I really don't think y'all understand how rare it is for scum to put in energy & effort when they are absolutely ****ed is, how easy it would have been for her to crumple after the CC. It's a lot easier to view her early play as town through the lens of someone who doesn't like to be transparent with reads because it lets scum take advantage.
Rhand is probably scum here. I liked his early posting when we were vibing and he was kind of defending me but he flipped when everyone else flipped because he has to. When scrutinizing his posts a little deeper, I don't see much reasoning that isn't garbage; and he will trumpet from all sides on how his reasoning is always weird as town and people pick on it but I didn't have half as many head scratching moments when reading his ISO in Modern & Watchmen and he sure as hell never used "my early reads are good" as justification for any of his reads. His questions lack barb and they lack scum motivation, like - fulcrum says that I'm hiding behind Gemma and misrepresenting her and he just kind of weakly defends himself from me and he can't see why I'm interacting with fulcrum and not him? Really? Him attacking me because I said "y'all" is a fat stack of bull*****, it's not Rhand-town being crazy, it's just garbage reasoning being used by scum on someone he'd like to see mislynched.
Dkingsland hasn't done anything townie at all. Dkings hasn't done anything townie at all. DK hasn't done anything townie but he claims BG in a ****ed game such as this and now he's untouchable??? No.
Keldeo's been extremely thoughtful and genuine in his posting in this thread, I'd ***** myself if he flipped scum here. People also attempted to meta mind and say that his scum game else where was similar to his game here and that's not true at all.
Axelrod had a lot of "I AM AN INDIGNANT" townie posting that owned early, Axelrod was the first that started picking up on Kitty being townie when she was being CC'd, the first to say express doubt before she went down which I don't actually think scum does there because it doesn't do anything good for him. I think his posting, with the exception of super early game when he just sat on his hands and pushed KCC, his posting has been fantastic.
Killjoy is prolly town, he's has strong presence the whole game and also has good paranoid townie moments for most of it. This is one of those that I have little niggles on but I don't really think they should be worried about until others are dead.
Fulcrum is slimy. My biggest read change that seems to be brewing comes from fulcrum-town to fulcrum-scum. I don't like her interactions with me today, I don't think I like her interactions with Gemma yesterday.
Asta seems pure but the read is gut. I don't have as much for him being town as I do for others.
You won't grow as a player until you learn to take responsibility for your piece of the gamestate.
What have you done to make Day 2 better? (Absolutely nothing). Complaining to make it end here and now damages morale and makes the game thread a more depressing place to post, so...?
If you are self-aware, you know what your scum game looks like, you know what your town game looks like. I can lie about the differences all I like but, again, anyone who knows me realizes that my scum game doesn't look like this. Anyone who has any competency in meta'ing could realize fairly quickly that my scum game doesn't look like this. Doesn't matter how easy the defense is to make, it's just a cold hard fact - sorry if it doesn't help you but you're also not putting any effort into today so it's not like helping you is in my to do list for the day.
LW
Axelrod
Killjoy
Tom
KCC
Vaimes
Keldeo
Asta
Proph
Rhand
DKings
Fulcrum
Everyone also seems to be ignoring that scum had the chance to shoot Vezok as a mason yesterday and instead shot Gemma. Do you think that scum shoots Gemma if she's completely wrong on me and her main couple of scumreads just because she "looks town"? No. Scum shot her because strong player yes, but also strong player who was likely on a correct path.
Could you quickly confirm/deny whether you received an orb last night?
If Fulcrum is w and Vaimes v, could you talk about what you think she's doing today? Is it like... people who know Vaimes will get to him town eventually, so ruling out that ML is not a loss?
Also, I had some Rhand/fulcrum not w/w thoughts from Rhand's side that I'll grab if I have time. Might ISO fulcrum first among the people I've got left, to look at her side of things. I'm pretty torn on Rhand, I kind of want to attribute lacking in sharpness or "good reasoning" to his lower activity levels because of stuff he's got going on, but actually that doesn't make sense to do.
I don't know what fulcrum's done today because I haven't really read today (skimmed things but not really read). If I'm scum v Vaimes town here, though, I don't start pushing Vaimes as scum until I intend to mislynch him - the longer he stays in emo mode the more ammunition you have stocked to kill him and, when you're ready to do so, just hit him like a ton of bricks. No need to warn him before you start pushing and no one cares if you were calling him town before.
This is assuming that fulcrum isn't lying about her role, but I feel like that's... probably a fair assumption to make? She hasn't claimed any info, but it seems a bit hard to justify not getting info if she doesn't have a way to learn what she's claimed, and fulcrum also offered to trade her abilities with Vaimes tonight.
Hate to do this after finals are (finally) over but my family is going on a trip for the holidays and my laptop charger broke. Will be a lot more active after holidays
Just random hottakes
- Yes Tom I see you, I'll get to your concerns soon
- I don't agree with lynching Nacho. Would rather see Vaimes or dkings get blasted
If that's true too, maybe Rhand would still have interpreted the post that way even if he knew fulcrum's role? I still kind of like the read on fulcrum's emotion/frustration, but it's not as strong...
Nacho, what I'm referring to specifically with "what fulcrum's done today" is her towncasing possible shot target Vaimes, saying that if people were between shooting her/Vaimes then they should shoot her and clear Vaimes when she flips town, etc.
Overall, fulcrum is. Probably someone I'd have a hard time getting a bead on regardless because O have a hard time getting into her head from her usually style of posting. Maybe her consideration of tom d1 and of Vaimes today give me solvy vibes.
I think what sticks out to me the most is what seems like an inconsistent treatment/POV on some things. 1220 is asking Vaimes for a case to sway her but that seems like a weird question to ask while she's voting Vaimes. She says EOD1 that Axel could check dk's bodyguard claim, but at this point she has hard CCed Axel and apparently doesn't think he's town? She doesn't really follow up on Axel today either and I know she posted about that but... mmmeh.
796 is leading dk to a scum read on probably town grapefruit (Sloth slot) - ~not w/w?
I am kind of falling sleep and don't think I can do more tonight, sorry :/ If vezok doesn't shoot I have time starting Monday to go through everyone I haven't; if she does shoot I can do that overNight I guess. Quick takes off memory are: I have not fully processed Nacho's recent posting but... mm. I feel like Nacho is a player who I might always TR. I think Nacho was just generally ~solvy~ and made posts it felt like he believed in on day 1, and has made posts like that now, but I also think that he is probably capable of doing that as a wolf too. But in the end I don't really think Vezok should shoot Nacho. Or Vaimes because I feel like fulcrum if w spewed him? I think my top shot choices are fulcrum/Proph probably? It feels impolite to shoot Proph now, when he has V/LA that ends before the end of the phase. KCC I just still feel is town I think. Oh I guess dkings exists but I just... don't have much of an opinion on him. I started to ISO him and just felt like everything existed. idk.
Well the choice is between nacho and Vaimes. The people who post before I shoot should choose one of them and if there's overwhelming votes for Vaimes I'd change my shot.
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execute nacho
The fact that the day kill came right after nacho switched to summer is just too much for me.
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and i might stick to that but
Is this really why youre shooting him, vez?
Anyways see y'all on the other side
Idk? Kills are just wine anyways, for the most part at least
Yeah, this is bad wifom. I've done nothing of value since the beginning of the game. Even if gemma was wrong on a lot of reads (which she was, she had slothful as scum) she was townread by almost everyone and could turn around to see the error of her ways.
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Scum, if playing well, kill people who are the greatest threats to them. If Gemma was wrong on stuff like scumreading Rhand/feeling uneasy about fulcrum/townreading me, she doesn't get shot there because it means she'd do scum's work for them.
Glad you brought this point up!
Didn't like Rhand bringing this up initially because it's just mudslinging - why would I, as scum, make a big gigantic production of changing the season to summer was I knew scum was getting a daykill? If that was the case, doesn't it make even more sense for me to just ram through the Lynch on KCC?
Keldeo, I see where you're coming from on fulcrum/Rhand, but two counterpoints. The first is that Rhand rolefishing fulcrum and fulcrum getting angry at him is something easily coordinated between the two of them and is not something that hurts their win condition to pull off - I see emotion from fulcrum there, but I don't think it's outside of her range.
I'm still sorry for fake counterclaiming - again, I thought KCC scumslipped and it was a combination of having time to think about it and KCC's pre-death posting that talked me off the ledge. Should have just articulated myself the normal way and it was a remarkably dumb move that I blame on lack of sleep (most of that posting came on work breaks and such) and abundance of rust. People who blame me for everything going wrong in the current gamestate and the general chaos of yesterday are failing to take responsibility for their own parts in the game (vezok, LW) and I hope that my blood can encourage them to contribute something meaningful to the game now.
Gemma died for a reason other than "everyone's townreading her and she's doing things!" - would highly suggest that people dig through her dying reads and don't let her voice die out like most town's do.
My list Day 1 was ranking your songs in terms of how I much I enjoyed them and separated into whether I heard of them or not - very glad the gift you gave to me of Peanut Butter Waffles and of course have a deep respect for the Run the Jewels songs included. I wouldn't let yourself tunnel Proph too much - there's still a high chance of him being scum but it there is anyone that I clear themselves given time it's him soooo
So yeah, DKings is bodyguard, and he is currently protecting me, a townie. I don't see scum doing that?
Shooting nacho feels disappointing, and I really want like. Actually good reasoning. Dayvig happening due to season change sounds too tinfoil to be reasonable. Maybe enough for an early tunnel but bluh.
Whatever, shot's called I guess.
I would have rather him chose someone like Silver or Killjoy simply because they are equally townread but more likely to make an impact/die in the future, and think that would have been the townier play to make.
I want clarity on that, or do u just believe him when he says he did?
@nacho
Sorry I guess, I tried to see town, but that's the problem with being uninformed, I kept seeing things I didn't like and like vezok, though whole switching to summer and then the day kill just weirded me out
Nachomamma8 has been executed. They were Sycorax -Town Season Illusionist.
You have the following ability:
Day Ability - Season Illusion
Once per game during the Day, you may swap the current season with the next upcoming season.
The Current Season is Spring.
As the town rises they are reminded of the Dreams of Prophecy they had last night. The town notices they are missing one member from the previous day. The town realizes that it is Tomslogger who is missing from the day before.
Tomslogger has been killed during the night. They were Puck - Town Memory Changer
Spring Day Ability - Annoyance
Each Day in Spring, you may target another player. That player must target you during the following Night if able.
Fall Ability - Forced Slumber
Once per game at Night in Fall, you may target another player. Prevent any other actions that would target them that Night, and prevent any actions that they would perform that Night.
Winter Ability - Hazy Memory Each Night in Winter, you may target another player and choose a season. That player will forget any abilities they have which are restricted to that season.
The Current Season is Spring.
With 14 Alive it takes 10 to lynch. Yes, this is correct.
I guess dreams of prophecy advances the season?
Will say this: This is now guaranteed a scum kill I think because of the lack of info in Gemma's revealed role. I'd always assumed but, now it's for sure.
@Vaimes. Killjoy is town.
confirm if you know that DK protected you?
I'm gonna be V/LA until Friday at least, I'll try to pop in here and there but I'm out of town and my service isn't very good here
Tom as the first night kill is a weird pick in this player list, I think
Not gonna read too deep because it's mostly wine but... yeah
Him and Nacho both being town changes a lot of stuff though
"With 14 Alive it takes 10 to lynch." I originally thought DV saying "this is correct" was about the season thing and didn't even notice this... that's a lot of agreement :q
@KCC, this isn't urgent but whenever you have a chance, could you walk me through your Nacho progression throughout the game, and where you are thinking of looking after his town flip?
How so, or is this not about your personal perspective? I thought you were ~somewhat townreading/only-tinfoil-wolfreading both of them?
But at the start of the game, the season was Spring. Then, before there were any deaths, Nacho swapped Spring with Summer. The deaths of Gemma D1 and Nacho D2 changed the season from Summer to Spring, with the next season being Fall. So as far as I understand it, the death of Tom N2 should not have changed the season to Fall, because there was no first death during Spring.
My wolf read on each of them was a bit tinfoily because I didn't really have a thing to point to and say "he's a wolf because X"
But I was pretty sure one of them was a wolf if KCC is town because of that tied vote count where they were both voting her over dkingsland (iirc, I need to double check that vote count but from what I remember ~everyone else is probably town on her there)
It *could* be a clean wagon on a villager I guess but... yeah I need to check those votes when I get home in a few days
It has been pointed out to me that I made a mistake in the Seasons. The Current Season has been corrected, it is still Spring. Sorry for any confusion.
Godddddddddddddd RIP Tom. :C
Happy Crimbus, I'm not going to be around much obvis.
Eternal Spring has got to stop-- I'm gonna lose my McFreakin Mind.
Like, a message from the mod?