I feel like there’s a lot to unpack within these last ~20 posts, but it’s midnight and I need to be up early.
I’m reading Nacho’s posts and I feel like I’m watching a roomba short-circuit. So far I don’t think he’s town.
Oh also I’ll be the first to say it: there’s totally a neutral in the game.
Is this a claim?
unvote
I like Silver.
Nacho feels like a copy of myself when I’m writing things that are good observations and then people scumread me for that.
Vaimes feels a bit less playful than usual.
Not sure this was quoted before, think it's town indicative for Vaimes.
@axel: well you've heard my argument for not claiming. I feel like there's some potential useful info to be gathered here and that outweighs putting my role into the thread. Given that you think I'm town (that big post you made earlier, trusting fulcrum) why do you think I need to claim right this second?
Well, I was okay with you not claiming right up until the part where it turned out that you had copied my ability and traded it to Vaimes. I am now envisioning worlds where you are not Town. It seems like in most of these worlds this would make you a Neutral. A Neutral role that copies other people's abilities (and you said you are not a role-copier, but it appears to me that you are) would be high on my list of people who could have offed Gemma - and here I am imagining that Gemma was the one with the actual Daykill ability. In this world, offing Gemma would be a rather strong signal to the Mafia that you would be prepared to play on their side.
Is this paranoia? Well, sure. That's what I do.
I would say behaviorally otherwise, I've felt good about you, but it seems this could be true if you were Neutral as much as Town. A full claim from you could go a long way towards addressing my concerns. Depending on what it turned out to be.
In general, I do not care to be in the dark about things.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't know. I don't even have a full grasp on all the roles claimed, I don't know which ones are confirmed or not, and how much are confirmed. I don't know how Dv tried to balance this. Like, I see you speculating, and it makes some sense, but I don't feel like I can figure it out at all.
All right people, riddle me this. Why does Keldeo's Summer RB target get chosen during the day, but the Winter RB is a regular Night choice?
What is the purpose of this? Is there a purpose? KCC's RB appears to be a normal Night choice action. And despite this being a Day choice, it doesn't prevent "day" abilities.
Could it have anything to do with the fact that the Season can change from the Day going into Night? If we assume that a Summer day is normally going to be followed by either a Summer Night or a Fall Night (despite what happened this game), I am trying to think if that matters with the claims there are.
Like, KCC is only ever blocking my Spring ability. And who cares. My Summer one is the good one. That and the Winter one, which is Keldeo's other block. Hrm. Silver also has nothing in Spring to even get RBed.
Seems like, if KCC was a scum RBer, she's a little nerfed there. Sure, she has "delay" instead, but it's just not as good.
I note that Keldeo's ability also appears to avoid my Watch. Also the 1-shot Track. He would be targeting during the Day and those abilities would presumably not see that. Keldeo also could not be Role-blocked, or bus-driven, or Jailed, himself, it appears, baring an Orb situation.
I have to say that these points seem more useful for a Mafia than Town.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@axel: well you've heard my argument for not claiming. I feel like there's some potential useful info to be gathered here and that outweighs putting my role into the thread. Given that you think I'm town (that big post you made earlier, trusting fulcrum) why do you think I need to claim right this second?
Well, I was okay with you not claiming right up until the part where it turned out that you had copied my ability and traded it to Vaimes. I am now envisioning worlds where you are not Town. It seems like in most of these worlds this would make you a Neutral. A Neutral role that copies other people's abilities (and you said you are not a role-copier, but it appears to me that you are) would be high on my list of people who could have offed Gemma - and here I am imagining that Gemma was the one with the actual Daykill ability. In this world, offing Gemma would be a rather strong signal to the Mafia that you would be prepared to play on their side.
Is this paranoia? Well, sure. That's what I do.
I would say behaviorally otherwise, I've felt good about you, but it seems this could be true if you were Neutral as much as Town. A full claim from you could go a long way towards addressing my concerns. Depending on what it turned out to be.
In general, I do not care to be in the dark about things.
Understandable. I'm seeing you as trying to solve the game using the setup, and I'm a hinderance to that. So I see your paranoia as worthy. But I feel like being able to put what I feel is a big question mark to rest is worth a bit more, especially since you don't need me to solve anything pressing right now.
And I said I wasn't a NEUTRAL ability copier. Obviously I had some ability to gain some copy of your ability in some capacity. But I was claiming not neutral. Maybe I'm just a dude who copies abilities, maybe I can do more. You'll know when I tell you, and that will be... soonish. I do promise that. I have a plan. It can't work if the person sees it coming.
What do you think about Last's push for me to claim. I doubt he has the same motives you do.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
God this is so much mechanics and noise. Trying to get a basic new readslist, but I just dunno right now. KillJoy has been copped as not Mafia or not the one who targeted Gemma? This is. Mildly confusing, but I guess I'm also kinda skimming because this week has been hectic and I've been getting home completely conked out.
(Also Theros: Beyond Death looks cool af and I can't wait to do prere this weekend but I'm actually not sure how many people in this thread play Magic so idk if y'all relate lmao)
Killjoy asking Vaimes to target him before eventually revealing he's... already... been targeted? Is weird? Killjoy out here trying to buy up all of Vaimes' ish I guess? I mean the plan seems to be KJ dredging up solid abilities to give Vaimes (maybe KJ can't hold the abilities forever?)
@DKings yeah I can def confirm the ability ToMorrow when it's actually winter.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Fulcrum has a result on Killjoy that he used an action (on N2 iirc?) and is not Mafia (this clears Killjoy if fulcrum is town but doesn't mean anything else)
I have a result on Keldeo that he has never targeted Gemma (so he probably isn't the day killer unless it doesn't target the chosen player)
Vaimes has a copy of Axelrod's ability that was given to him by Killjoy (which confirm's Axel's Spring Ability)
Vaimes also has a copy of fulcrum's ability, which confirms that it exists (but not that she's town since it could be a wolf psuedo-rolecop)
I think that's all of the direct info that's been claimed toDay? Most of the rest has been speculation about how the claimed roles fit together
Vaimes can target me toNight if he wants, my abilities are pretty poor so being roleblocked or something isn't a big deal (especially if it happens during Spring when I can't take an action anyway)
So, everyone's just waiting for me to tell everyone who to lynch today, right?
Right?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Yeah, Asta's just town. The main point against him is the lack of activity, and I don't think that really compares to his role stuff, his pureness, and the stuff with Rhand and mind.
I'm happy you followed through with this. I don't agree with all of it, especially in regards to the nervousness. I'm also pretty sure Asta is lying about parts of the role though
I have to say that these points seem more useful for a Mafia than Town.
Yeah, I'm not seeing a good answer to these. This is still probably our best bet Today
Something I've been thinking about along these lines is what is my RB even for? I theoretically could have stopped Rhands copy, but is that it? A lot of the Spring abilities are confirmed and wouldn't even be worth blocking if they are scum powers. Is someone not claiming a Spring ability? Is Proph scum and I actually hit one of the only useful things I could do?
This is a good idea. In the meantime, are there any details of your claim you want to clarify? Have you claimed all of your abilities and their names? There's nothing else?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm curious why Proph sent me an orange orb last night though. I've been meaning to ask but keep forgetting. @proph
Man, for someone who is being so coy about his role, you seem to like giving out free info. B/w this and the BP vest you got.
But since you've said it, and it seems there's really nothing left to be gained, I'll go ahead and say that I targeted you also last night with the "get names of abilities that targeted" ability, and I got the name of Vaimes' ability and Proph's ability. Which are specific enough that it was easy to know who did it. No other abilities targeted.
And I targeted you mainly as a shot in the dark, but as someone townie appearing, I thought you could attract some attention. I wouldn't get a name if the scum killed you, but if I got any other names, that might have looked good for those people.
It just seems to me that, of things to keep secret, having a BP vest, as well as having an Orb (esp. an Orange Orb which triggers all the others) would be something that the scum would be very happy to know, assuming they didn't already.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So, everyone's just waiting for me to tell everyone who to lynch today, right?
Right?
Well, I was hoping to finish claiming around now, so we could discuss that, but Asta posted without responding to my last question, and I really don't want to leave wiggle room there
I think I'm going to try finding time to organize and post my Rhand/keldeo Rhand/fulcrum notes after all. I doubt I'd be interested in anywhere else Today
I didn't give the vest thing away, that was Vaimes.
And the reason I asked about the orb was because I believe it allows me to be role blocked
I don't think so. I think if someone who has a Green Orb targets you they get RBed. And if someone with a Blue Orb targets you they are protected from the night kill.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Spring - King of Aos Si, two votes, originally not active until Summer (Meaning I did not have the power online until Nacho swapped to Summer)
Summer - King of Aos Si, two votes
Fall - I'm a vanilla townie
Winter - Benevolent King, I can target one person that day, and that person is blessed by a winter wind or some ish that increased their lynch threshold by 1 (one)
Unless there's something you know that I don't, that's all of my abilities.
Working slowly on a readslist but it'll be a day or two. Way too much going on right now, functionally V/LA until the 19th, I'll try to jump in an hour or two before lynch.
All right people, riddle me this. Why does Keldeo's Summer RB target get chosen during the day, but the Winter RB is a regular Night choice?
What is the purpose of this? Is there a purpose? KCC's RB appears to be a normal Night choice action. And despite this being a Day choice, it doesn't prevent "day" abilities.
I note that Keldeo's ability also appears to avoid my Watch. Also the 1-shot Track. He would be targeting during the Day and those abilities would presumably not see that. Keldeo also could not be Role-blocked, or bus-driven, or Jailed, himself, it appears, baring an Orb situation.
I have to say that these points seem more useful for a Mafia than Town.
Yep, I addressed some of this earlier and completely agree with your other points. We already had multiple roleblocking abilities claimed/flipped, and Keldeo's somehow dodge all of the disruptive/investigative stuff in the game?
Another thing to consider... a lot of the season-restricted abilities here are very much nerfed. I appear to be the primary protective, and I can only die for my target. The fulcrum ability Vaimes now has gets a "non-mafia" result. If all of these other claims are true: Silver's summer and winter abilities are weak. KCC's roleblock can't stop the NK. Proph's orbs are very narrow-use. Your spring and fall ones are weak, and even your winter one is nerfed to a degree. But then Keldeo's are just... ridiculously strong. His summer action can't be stopped and has nothing conditional about it, and his winter ability can steal another ability?
Spring - King of Aos Si, two votes, originally not active until Summer (Meaning I did not have the power online until Nacho swapped to Summer)
Summer - King of Aos Si, two votes
Fall - I'm a vanilla townie
Winter - Benevolent King, I can target one person that day, and that person is blessed by a winter wind or some ish that increased their lynch threshold by 1 (one)
Unless there's something you know that I don't, that's all of my abilities.
Okay, yeah, I don't believe this.
So, I have 5 abilities:
Playful Forgetfulness is my spring RB.
Lethargy of Feasts is my fall delay shield.
Winter Trap is my... winter trap that delays.
Lightning Strike is my busdrive.
And then Summer Storms is my summer ability that just triggers to turn on the busdrives.
Obviously, you have an extra vote ability now, Asta. But, I don't believe it works as claimed. If it worked so similarly to how mine turns on in the summer, why don't you have a separate trigger?
I'm ~pretty sure he was deliberately hiding his vote during Spring D1 because he always posted "unvote: player, vote: new player" too and after he revealed he's just been posting "unvote, vote X"
That said I dunno what he gets out of lying about it as a wolf and I'm not sure it makes sense that he gets a double vote and a day kill in summer
After looking at what Proph's ability does, I'm slightly regretting actually mentioning the orange orb.
I thought having that was worse for me than it is. I missed the potential protect ability. It's not just a roleblock.
But I mean, I don't trust Proph. If he's scum, he might give his buddy a green orb so they can block me. Apparently he can do that during the Day X times.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
All right people, riddle me this. Why does Keldeo's Summer RB target get chosen during the day, but the Winter RB is a regular Night choice?
What is the purpose of this? Is there a purpose? KCC's RB appears to be a normal Night choice action. And despite this being a Day choice, it doesn't prevent "day" abilities.
I note that Keldeo's ability also appears to avoid my Watch. Also the 1-shot Track. He would be targeting during the Day and those abilities would presumably not see that. Keldeo also could not be Role-blocked, or bus-driven, or Jailed, himself, it appears, baring an Orb situation.
I have to say that these points seem more useful for a Mafia than Town.
Yep, I addressed some of this earlier and completely agree with your other points. We already had multiple roleblocking abilities claimed/flipped, and Keldeo's somehow dodge all of the disruptive/investigative stuff in the game?
Another thing to consider... a lot of the season-restricted abilities here are very much nerfed. I appear to be the primary protective, and I can only die for my target. The fulcrum ability Vaimes now has gets a "non-mafia" result. If all of these other claims are true: Silver's summer and winter abilities are weak. KCC's roleblock can't stop the NK. Proph's orbs are very narrow-use. Your spring and fall ones are weak, and even your winter one is nerfed to a degree. But then Keldeo's are just... ridiculously strong. His summer action can't be stopped and has nothing conditional about it, and his winter ability can steal another ability?
Just want to point out that while my other abilities are pretty trash, the "non-mafia" result is /the point/ of the spring ability.
Everyone who's fullclaimed could try speculating about their roles and how it's supposed to work in the setup. Could be useful to look at how people view their own abilities.
I think we should make a plan for tonight and just lynch Keldeo.
I agree with the points about Asta, but I feel like these would be advanced tactics for a new player and they all got executed perfectly. No mindset slips, no botched claims and no horrible interactions with dead scum. I know I scumread Asta in the beginning, but if they are scum, they are doing an amazing job.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Sorry for not being able to be here, I've been a bit overwhelmed with other things.
I will definitely be here starting Saturday afternoon (about 36 hours from now) to finish the ISOing and Rhand interaction stuff I wanted to do.
I might just focus on putting out a legacy rather than more self-defense because enough people I think are town seem to be stuck on me being mafia and idek who we could even get the lynch onto besides me. But the last time I was in this situation of getting tunneled and did the legacy thing, people ended up lynching the guy I was defending, so
Quick responses/stuff based on skimming:
- fulcrum, can you talk me through why KCC's posts seem towny to you? This question comes with no judgment either way on their content since I haven't read them closely.
- I think I've made it clear that I didn't and don't think a roleblock + no kill on night 1 in role madness is meaningful. Because there are so many alternate possibilities I thought about it and concluded that it shouldn't notably heighten my suspicion of someone - that's why I didn't mention fulcrum being more suspicious to me (because she wasn't) or claim my action. The change from "Keldeo is scummy for not claiming the roleblock" to "Keldeo is scummy for not softing the roleblock" seems like goalpost moving without really understanding my motivations and setup assumptions/beliefs, which are obviously different from y'all's because I come from a different mafia background.
- re: n2 target, I had my target set to fulcrum nearly all day and don't remember why exactly I changed to dk. As far as I can remember, it had to do with lingering paranoia about dk not having the same number of actions as me (which in hindsight is pretty lol), someone talking about how dk had no other actions, and that made some puzzle pieces click to me about the mafia possibly switching up the killer if they didn't know how the kill was stopped, plus trying to confirm as many passive abilities to be passive as I could. I softed this target the next day as "I had a moment of doubt overNight about dk, but I feel better on him now that Asta confirmed his bodyguard" or something, I can look up the actual post later
- I also don't actually know if my summer ability can be tracked/blocked - I didn't get a response from DV when I asked a few weeks ago and didn't really want to be impolite by pressing it, but I'll ask again now. The idea that I have this super powerful unblockable untraceable roleblock and then decided to waste it on two passive ability users is kinda silly to me, but I get that you guys are concerned that I could have lied about my targets or something. I did soft my dk target (see above) but not very strongly.
- I don't understand the Killjoy / Axel / Vaimes ability copying thing, but I'll take it at face value and assume that his claim will explain things. I'm fine with that claim coming later.
- I am pretty sure Asta is just town here, I don't really think KCC's objection holds water because even assuming that she's town and has that similar thing, the bus drive is active but having a double vote is passive. Like it would be weirder for me if Asta had a separate ability that allowed him to use a passive ability, which seems to be what KCC is suggesting. And I guess that one ability tom had is not exactly the same, but it seems to be another thing that "can be activated in [season]" without a second ability.
Oh, KCC asked me about the "non-factional" modifier... Yeah, it made me a bit more accepting of that aspect of the claim as not actually more likely to be scum aligned because hello, my own ability. I think I argued that point to tom(?) about that part of the role not being unrealistic, and I don't think I pressed KCC about that part of the claim when others were.
And the interaction stuff about me, I think is from dkings mostly. I was wrong about Rhand/preferred Proph most of yesterday, and he townread Mindreaver and asked me softball questions and I think dkings thinks his push was still partnery.
Like, we need to lunch him/KCC in some order, there is basically zero chance both of those roles are town given the other living manipulatives are Vaimes and Proph, neither of which make much sense as the only wolf manipulative role
Vaimes, I have a question about the message sender thing you give away. What will that look like, to the player who is getting sent the message? Is it just, a message from the Mod. which could literally say anything, and the sender could choose to not reveal that the message was from them if they wanted?
I'm wondering this like, if scum had this ability, can they send a message that says "Player X is not mafia." Which then looks like something official from the Mod.
Or "You are now being protected by Queen Titania."
You know, stuff like that....
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KCC claimed Rber (among other things) @1449 when under heavy pressure. Keldeo is also a RBer. One would think that, after KCC claimed, he might have had something to say, one way or the other. Either about how the claim made him more suspicious of KCC (because he doesn't believe in two town Rbers - and he doesn't have to be claiming that as his reason yet) Or how the claim doesn't make him suspicious (because maybe he thinks her RB and his RB "fit" together and maybe make one full RBing role?) I don't know. I just would expect an opinion of some kind.
But what we got, in his first post after KCC claim was this:
1459 A question to Vaimes, asking him for his opinions on KCC (and dking.) Literally no reaction to the claim itself.
And then, here's something I did not remember at all. I got into a little discussion with Keldeo about KCC's claim, and my thoughts about Rbers. Keldeo asks me some questions @1469 and 1470.
He asks me, why did I characterize KCC's claim as "actively detrimental to Town" when, in his opinion, RBers are always detrimental to Town if they hit Town power, regardless of whether they can stop a NK. And then he wants to know my feelings about her "soft" and her "claim" and if I think it makes her more likely to me Mafia. Again without tipping anything at all about his own role. And then, in #1472 he nitpicks me about my describing it as "actively detrimental." This is a weird interaction to me. And there is nothing, nothing about his own feelings about KCC or her claim here. It is incredibly neutral.
Until, finally, at #1493, he does give an opinion. And it's "I don't really want to kill KCC." For the reason....And actually there isn't a reason. The closest he comes is "devil's advocatness." He thinks if KCC flips Town it would be a shrug for him, as that is what he thinks is more likely. He seems to acknowledge that if she flipped Mafia we would get a lot out of it, but just says he doesn't think that is likely. He doesn't say why he thinks KCC is Town.
This just reads all kind of wrong to me from someone who is also a RBing role.
Then there was that other non-claim/non-hint/non-soft that has already been discussed, which was that after RBing fulcrum, and there being no NK, Keldeo had nothing to say. Expressed not even a tiny bit of heightened suspicion towards fulcrum. Which he could have done without claiming or softing anything. Just seems wrong.
Here was my analysis of Keldeo voting for me on D1. #2503
TLDR hot take:
his positioning on my wagon, and his lack of opinion on me prior to it puts him squarely in the sweet spot for an opportunistic scum
But still nothing definitive.
Another post of mine at #3644. This is part behavior and part mechanics.
Keldeo on the D3 lynch.
Keldeo makes a post @3226, noting that as the lynch threshold is 10 for today, we will need more consensus, and suggests everyone consolidate on one of the current top three wagons (Himself, Proph, or Rhand) which seem like the only ones that could potentially reach 10 votes. And I'm like, ehh, this seems like a very "helpful townie" type post. Feels like it could come from scum, but it also could just be sincere. Part of my issue, I'm sure, is that he has himself in there as one of the three people, and it's just so against my natural instincts to ever suggest that anyone voting for me could ever be a good idea.
One other thing he does - or, rather, does not do - is make a further push for who HE thinks everyone should be consolidating onto. Like, he's voting for Proph. but he doesn't take this opportunity to argue that further, or encourage others to do the same. He's just being so very objective and analytical here. Like he doesn't want to bias the results by interjecting his personal opinion. Which seems weird to me.
Keldeo on the rhand wagon
Keldeo then votes Rhand @3475. It's not really a strong vote. He even says that it's mainly to get a majority. He points out one thing that bothers him about Rhand's claim, which is how Rhands corrected it after it was criticized, but then that's kind of it and he spends most of the post talking about other things like if we can come up with a plan for how to use/confirm Proph's Orbs. So, this vote here is one that could easily just be a scum vote. I'm not saying it's inconsistent with his prior posting, it just doesn't give off any Townie vibes.
I have convinced myself again.
Vote: Keldeo
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Vaimes, I have a question about the message sender thing you give away. What will that look like, to the player who is getting sent the message? Is it just, a message from the Mod. which could literally say anything, and the sender could choose to not reveal that the message was from them if they wanted?
I'm wondering this like, if scum had this ability, can they send a message that says "Player X is not mafia." Which then looks like something official from the Mod.
Or "You are now being protected by Queen Titania."
You know, stuff like that....
I thought about that re: dk but for fulcrum it wouldn't make sense unless all of fulcrum/dk/Vaimes are scum but then dk wouldn't need the message ability to do that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Like, we need to lunch him/KCC in some order, there is basically zero chance both of those roles are town given the other living manipulatives are Vaimes and Proph, neither of which make much sense as the only wolf manipulative role
I'm torn between the two myself, but not because of some dichotomy. I just think there's scum in there somewhere.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I am not ruling out KCC, almost regardless of what Keldeo flips as. But I feel better about Keldeo being a hit here for the moment.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Oh, KCC asked me about the "non-factional" modifier... Yeah, it made me a bit more accepting of that aspect of the claim as not actually more likely to be scum aligned because hello, my own ability. I think I argued that point to tom(?) about that part of the role not being unrealistic
If you did, I can't find it, and I went through all your posts from my claim until EoD1. You discussed RBs in general a bit, but not a word after I explained the factional ability restriction.
KCC claimed Rber (among other things) @1449 when under heavy pressure. Keldeo is also a RBer. One would think that, after KCC claimed, he might have had something to say, one way or the other. Either about how the claim made him more suspicious of KCC (because he doesn't believe in two town Rbers - and he doesn't have to be claiming that as his reason yet) Or how the claim doesn't make him suspicious (because maybe he thinks her RB and his RB "fit" together and maybe make one full RBing role?) I don't know. I just would expect an opinion of some kind.
But what we got, in his first post after KCC claim was this:
1459 A question to Vaimes, asking him for his opinions on KCC (and dking.) Literally no reaction to the claim itself.
And then, here's something I did not remember at all. I got into a little discussion with Keldeo about KCC's claim, and my thoughts about Rbers. Keldeo asks me some questions @1469 and 1470.
He asks me, why did I characterize KCC's claim as "actively detrimental to Town" when, in his opinion, RBers are always detrimental to Town if they hit Town power, regardless of whether they can stop a NK. And then he wants to know my feelings about her "soft" and her "claim" and if I think it makes her more likely to me Mafia. Again without tipping anything at all about his own role. And then, in #1472 he nitpicks me about my describing it as "actively detrimental." This is a weird interaction to me. And there is nothing, nothing about his own feelings about KCC or her claim here. It is incredibly neutral.
Until, finally, at #1493, he does give an opinion. And it's "I don't really want to kill KCC." For the reason....And actually there isn't a reason. The closest he comes is "devil's advocatness." He thinks if KCC flips Town it would be a shrug for him, as that is what he thinks is more likely. He seems to acknowledge that if she flipped Mafia we would get a lot out of it, but just says he doesn't think that is likely. He doesn't say why he thinks KCC is Town.
This just reads all kind of wrong to me from someone who is also a RBing role.
Lol. I was just doing this, that's a bit of time wasted. I at least have this to add though, the reaction to Nachos kinda CC:
And I guess that one ability tom had is not exactly the same, but it seems to be another thing that "can be activated in [season]" without a second ability.
Tom didn't have anything like it. Me and Asta would both have abilities that are useable in Spring, but not the first Spring, because it needs to be turned on by a Summer. But that just works completely differently for some reason, and he didn't mention it when he first claimed, not until after it was pointed out how suspicious the timing of it was.
Like what would have made you townread my reaction to KCC’a claim? Saying “hey guys I’m a roleblocker too, what do you think of KCC’a role?” Should I just full claim SOD1 from now on?
Like are you all implying I’m not actually the roleblocker and just decided to insert myself into the disruptive dichotomy here for ??? reasons. I’m not the day killer unless you think Silver is lying or you can come up with a reason a vig shot wouldn’t target someone.
Me taking an action you personally don’t understand does not mean I’m mafia.
I understand this means nothing if you’re all that convinced, I’m kind of just typing this out of a sense of pride I guess. Just don’t hammer me, please.
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(That's proph.)
Not sure this was quoted before, think it's town indicative for Vaimes.
Sidenote: Rhand was absolutely buddying Tom and Nacho in early game.
Is this paranoia? Well, sure. That's what I do.
I would say behaviorally otherwise, I've felt good about you, but it seems this could be true if you were Neutral as much as Town. A full claim from you could go a long way towards addressing my concerns. Depending on what it turned out to be.
In general, I do not care to be in the dark about things.
I don't know. I don't even have a full grasp on all the roles claimed, I don't know which ones are confirmed or not, and how much are confirmed. I don't know how Dv tried to balance this. Like, I see you speculating, and it makes some sense, but I don't feel like I can figure it out at all.
What is the purpose of this? Is there a purpose? KCC's RB appears to be a normal Night choice action. And despite this being a Day choice, it doesn't prevent "day" abilities.
Could it have anything to do with the fact that the Season can change from the Day going into Night? If we assume that a Summer day is normally going to be followed by either a Summer Night or a Fall Night (despite what happened this game), I am trying to think if that matters with the claims there are.
Like, KCC is only ever blocking my Spring ability. And who cares. My Summer one is the good one. That and the Winter one, which is Keldeo's other block. Hrm. Silver also has nothing in Spring to even get RBed.
Seems like, if KCC was a scum RBer, she's a little nerfed there. Sure, she has "delay" instead, but it's just not as good.
I note that Keldeo's ability also appears to avoid my Watch. Also the 1-shot Track. He would be targeting during the Day and those abilities would presumably not see that. Keldeo also could not be Role-blocked, or bus-driven, or Jailed, himself, it appears, baring an Orb situation.
I have to say that these points seem more useful for a Mafia than Town.
And I said I wasn't a NEUTRAL ability copier. Obviously I had some ability to gain some copy of your ability in some capacity. But I was claiming not neutral. Maybe I'm just a dude who copies abilities, maybe I can do more. You'll know when I tell you, and that will be... soonish. I do promise that. I have a plan. It can't work if the person sees it coming.
What do you think about Last's push for me to claim. I doubt he has the same motives you do.
(Also Theros: Beyond Death looks cool af and I can't wait to do prere this weekend but I'm actually not sure how many people in this thread play Magic so idk if y'all relate lmao)
Killjoy asking Vaimes to target him before eventually revealing he's... already... been targeted? Is weird? Killjoy out here trying to buy up all of Vaimes' ish I guess? I mean the plan seems to be KJ dredging up solid abilities to give Vaimes (maybe KJ can't hold the abilities forever?)
@DKings yeah I can def confirm the ability ToMorrow when it's actually winter.
I have a result on Keldeo that he has never targeted Gemma (so he probably isn't the day killer unless it doesn't target the chosen player)
Vaimes has a copy of Axelrod's ability that was given to him by Killjoy (which confirm's Axel's Spring Ability)
Vaimes also has a copy of fulcrum's ability, which confirms that it exists (but not that she's town since it could be a wolf psuedo-rolecop)
I think that's all of the direct info that's been claimed toDay? Most of the rest has been speculation about how the claimed roles fit together
Vaimes can target me toNight if he wants, my abilities are pretty poor so being roleblocked or something isn't a big deal (especially if it happens during Spring when I can't take an action anyway)
Right?
Yeah, I see things that point at either, but I really don't think they're w/w
I'm happy you followed through with this. I don't agree with all of it, especially in regards to the nervousness. I'm also pretty sure Asta is lying about parts of the role though
You saying it doesn't make me feel better about it
Yeah, I'm not seeing a good answer to these. This is still probably our best bet Today
Something I've been thinking about along these lines is what is my RB even for? I theoretically could have stopped Rhands copy, but is that it? A lot of the Spring abilities are confirmed and wouldn't even be worth blocking if they are scum powers. Is someone not claiming a Spring ability? Is Proph scum and I actually hit one of the only useful things I could do?
This is a good idea. In the meantime, are there any details of your claim you want to clarify? Have you claimed all of your abilities and their names? There's nothing else?
I'm curious why Proph sent me an orange orb last night though. I've been meaning to ask but keep forgetting.
@proph
But since you've said it, and it seems there's really nothing left to be gained, I'll go ahead and say that I targeted you also last night with the "get names of abilities that targeted" ability, and I got the name of Vaimes' ability and Proph's ability. Which are specific enough that it was easy to know who did it. No other abilities targeted.
And I targeted you mainly as a shot in the dark, but as someone townie appearing, I thought you could attract some attention. I wouldn't get a name if the scum killed you, but if I got any other names, that might have looked good for those people.
It just seems to me that, of things to keep secret, having a BP vest, as well as having an Orb (esp. an Orange Orb which triggers all the others) would be something that the scum would be very happy to know, assuming they didn't already.
And the reason I asked about the orb was because I believe it allows me to be role blocked
The Current Season is Fall.
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Well, I was hoping to finish claiming around now, so we could discuss that, but Asta posted without responding to my last question, and I really don't want to leave wiggle room there
I think I'm going to try finding time to organize and post my Rhand/keldeo Rhand/fulcrum notes after all. I doubt I'd be interested in anywhere else Today
I'll check your role post later for clarification.
Spring - King of Aos Si, two votes, originally not active until Summer (Meaning I did not have the power online until Nacho swapped to Summer)
Summer - King of Aos Si, two votes
Fall - I'm a vanilla townie
Winter - Benevolent King, I can target one person that day, and that person is blessed by a winter wind or some ish that increased their lynch threshold by 1 (one)
Unless there's something you know that I don't, that's all of my abilities.
Yep, I addressed some of this earlier and completely agree with your other points. We already had multiple roleblocking abilities claimed/flipped, and Keldeo's somehow dodge all of the disruptive/investigative stuff in the game?
Another thing to consider... a lot of the season-restricted abilities here are very much nerfed. I appear to be the primary protective, and I can only die for my target. The fulcrum ability Vaimes now has gets a "non-mafia" result. If all of these other claims are true: Silver's summer and winter abilities are weak. KCC's roleblock can't stop the NK. Proph's orbs are very narrow-use. Your spring and fall ones are weak, and even your winter one is nerfed to a degree. But then Keldeo's are just... ridiculously strong. His summer action can't be stopped and has nothing conditional about it, and his winter ability can steal another ability?
Okay, yeah, I don't believe this.
So, I have 5 abilities:
Playful Forgetfulness is my spring RB.
Lethargy of Feasts is my fall delay shield.
Winter Trap is my... winter trap that delays.
Lightning Strike is my busdrive.
And then Summer Storms is my summer ability that just triggers to turn on the busdrives.
Obviously, you have an extra vote ability now, Asta. But, I don't believe it works as claimed. If it worked so similarly to how mine turns on in the summer, why don't you have a separate trigger?
That said I dunno what he gets out of lying about it as a wolf and I'm not sure it makes sense that he gets a double vote and a day kill in summer
I thought having that was worse for me than it is. I missed the potential protect ability. It's not just a roleblock.
But I mean, I don't trust Proph. If he's scum, he might give his buddy a green orb so they can block me. Apparently he can do that during the Day X times.
Someone was saying there was Keldeo/Rhand interactions that were telling,does anyone know what that was?
Just want to point out that while my other abilities are pretty trash, the "non-mafia" result is /the point/ of the spring ability.
I agree with the points about Asta, but I feel like these would be advanced tactics for a new player and they all got executed perfectly. No mindset slips, no botched claims and no horrible interactions with dead scum. I know I scumread Asta in the beginning, but if they are scum, they are doing an amazing job.
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I will definitely be here starting Saturday afternoon (about 36 hours from now) to finish the ISOing and Rhand interaction stuff I wanted to do.
I might just focus on putting out a legacy rather than more self-defense because enough people I think are town seem to be stuck on me being mafia and idek who we could even get the lynch onto besides me. But the last time I was in this situation of getting tunneled and did the legacy thing, people ended up lynching the guy I was defending, so
Quick responses/stuff based on skimming:
- fulcrum, can you talk me through why KCC's posts seem towny to you? This question comes with no judgment either way on their content since I haven't read them closely.
- I think I've made it clear that I didn't and don't think a roleblock + no kill on night 1 in role madness is meaningful. Because there are so many alternate possibilities I thought about it and concluded that it shouldn't notably heighten my suspicion of someone - that's why I didn't mention fulcrum being more suspicious to me (because she wasn't) or claim my action. The change from "Keldeo is scummy for not claiming the roleblock" to "Keldeo is scummy for not softing the roleblock" seems like goalpost moving without really understanding my motivations and setup assumptions/beliefs, which are obviously different from y'all's because I come from a different mafia background.
- re: n2 target, I had my target set to fulcrum nearly all day and don't remember why exactly I changed to dk. As far as I can remember, it had to do with lingering paranoia about dk not having the same number of actions as me (which in hindsight is pretty lol), someone talking about how dk had no other actions, and that made some puzzle pieces click to me about the mafia possibly switching up the killer if they didn't know how the kill was stopped, plus trying to confirm as many passive abilities to be passive as I could. I softed this target the next day as "I had a moment of doubt overNight about dk, but I feel better on him now that Asta confirmed his bodyguard" or something, I can look up the actual post later
- I also don't actually know if my summer ability can be tracked/blocked - I didn't get a response from DV when I asked a few weeks ago and didn't really want to be impolite by pressing it, but I'll ask again now. The idea that I have this super powerful unblockable untraceable roleblock and then decided to waste it on two passive ability users is kinda silly to me, but I get that you guys are concerned that I could have lied about my targets or something. I did soft my dk target (see above) but not very strongly.
- I don't understand the Killjoy / Axel / Vaimes ability copying thing, but I'll take it at face value and assume that his claim will explain things. I'm fine with that claim coming later.
- I am pretty sure Asta is just town here, I don't really think KCC's objection holds water because even assuming that she's town and has that similar thing, the bus drive is active but having a double vote is passive. Like it would be weirder for me if Asta had a separate ability that allowed him to use a passive ability, which seems to be what KCC is suggesting. And I guess that one ability tom had is not exactly the same, but it seems to be another thing that "can be activated in [season]" without a second ability.
Like, we need to lunch him/KCC in some order, there is basically zero chance both of those roles are town given the other living manipulatives are Vaimes and Proph, neither of which make much sense as the only wolf manipulative role
I'm wondering this like, if scum had this ability, can they send a message that says "Player X is not mafia." Which then looks like something official from the Mod.
Or "You are now being protected by Queen Titania."
You know, stuff like that....
Looks something like this:
Keldeo was Mindreaver. Mindreaver was lurky. I did a PBPA!
HERE!
KCC claimed Rber (among other things) @1449 when under heavy pressure. Keldeo is also a RBer. One would think that, after KCC claimed, he might have had something to say, one way or the other. Either about how the claim made him more suspicious of KCC (because he doesn't believe in two town Rbers - and he doesn't have to be claiming that as his reason yet) Or how the claim doesn't make him suspicious (because maybe he thinks her RB and his RB "fit" together and maybe make one full RBing role?) I don't know. I just would expect an opinion of some kind.
But what we got, in his first post after KCC claim was this:
1459 A question to Vaimes, asking him for his opinions on KCC (and dking.) Literally no reaction to the claim itself.
And then, here's something I did not remember at all. I got into a little discussion with Keldeo about KCC's claim, and my thoughts about Rbers. Keldeo asks me some questions @1469 and 1470.
He asks me, why did I characterize KCC's claim as "actively detrimental to Town" when, in his opinion, RBers are always detrimental to Town if they hit Town power, regardless of whether they can stop a NK. And then he wants to know my feelings about her "soft" and her "claim" and if I think it makes her more likely to me Mafia. Again without tipping anything at all about his own role. And then, in #1472 he nitpicks me about my describing it as "actively detrimental." This is a weird interaction to me. And there is nothing, nothing about his own feelings about KCC or her claim here. It is incredibly neutral.
Until, finally, at #1493, he does give an opinion. And it's "I don't really want to kill KCC." For the reason....And actually there isn't a reason. The closest he comes is "devil's advocatness." He thinks if KCC flips Town it would be a shrug for him, as that is what he thinks is more likely. He seems to acknowledge that if she flipped Mafia we would get a lot out of it, but just says he doesn't think that is likely. He doesn't say why he thinks KCC is Town.
This just reads all kind of wrong to me from someone who is also a RBing role.
Then there was that other non-claim/non-hint/non-soft that has already been discussed, which was that after RBing fulcrum, and there being no NK, Keldeo had nothing to say. Expressed not even a tiny bit of heightened suspicion towards fulcrum. Which he could have done without claiming or softing anything. Just seems wrong.
Here was my analysis of Keldeo voting for me on D1. #2503
TLDR hot take: But still nothing definitive.
Another post of mine at #3644. This is part behavior and part mechanics.
Keldeo on the D3 lynch.
Keldeo on the rhand wagon
I have convinced myself again.
Vote: Keldeo
If you did, I can't find it, and I went through all your posts from my claim until EoD1. You discussed RBs in general a bit, but not a word after I explained the factional ability restriction.
Lol. I was just doing this, that's a bit of time wasted. I at least have this to add though, the reaction to Nachos kinda CC: If Kel is town with a role that similar to mine, how is there no curiosity about what exactly is being CCed? No hesitation, no questions, no input?
vote keldeo
The Current Season is Fall.
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
I actually think that's probably supposed to be me, which, would have been nice to have some indication of in my role PM
Like what would have made you townread my reaction to KCC’a claim? Saying “hey guys I’m a roleblocker too, what do you think of KCC’a role?” Should I just full claim SOD1 from now on?
Me taking an action you personally don’t understand does not mean I’m mafia.
I understand this means nothing if you’re all that convinced, I’m kind of just typing this out of a sense of pride I guess. Just don’t hammer me, please.