Sorry, Tom, could you reword or restate what you mean by “compared to what”? I’m probably just stuck on parsing it as an intro to “what town fonti would have done, blah blah blah” but I don’t understand.
"when i think about scumfontis motivation for the claim, i have no townfonti motivation to compare it to"
(which is what that post was largely about)
So, are you just pretending not to get it or what?
Sorry, Tom, could you reword or restate what you mean by “compared to what”? I’m probably just stuck on parsing it as an intro to “what town fonti would have done, blah blah blah” but I don’t understand.
"when i think about scumfontis motivation for the claim, i have no townfonti motivation to compare it to"
(which is what that post was largely about)
So, are you just pretending not to get it or what?
Proph using it a handful of times in wall is what brought this to mind, but hes definitely not the first this game. Especially around claims.
The process shouldnt be "why would they _____ as scum?"
It should be why they would do it as town. Because as scum the answer is sometimes just "because thats what id do as town" or even "because i can get away with it"
So take kcc.
That early soft ("i have a scummy role" or whatever) made me want to file her as town and ignore. Partially because as scum you can just fake claim but thats against my own advice lol. But as town its kinda like claiming miller? I assume she knows about the concept from playing before my time but its pretty basic it makes sense.
But then take fonti.
Her CC of axel makes zero goddamn sense to me. And if she did believe it then her handling of axel since then makes no sense to me. So i cant super answer what scumfonti was doing there but like... compared to what
And then theres nacho
Who fake CCed for a reaction test, or, if hes scum... for a reaction test. And because he does that sort of thing/thinks he can get away with it.
I dont think its a good reaction test. And i think it ultimately screwed us out of a productive day 1. But he couldnt possibly know that.
And then vaimes role useage
Which is a mediocre play for towncred regardless of his alignment. When trying to use it as a rolecop is clearly better as either alignment...
Like theres a lot of actions people take in a game that arent something you would do. But just stopping at "why would scum do that?" is lazy and only works if youre reading yourself
i mean im sort of pretending it doesnt exist and not making it part of my read beyond "well if its one in fonti/axel it's prolly fonti anyway"
Sorry, Tom, could you reword or restate what you mean by “compared to what”? I’m probably just stuck on parsing it as an intro to “what town fonti would have done, blah blah blah” but I don’t understand.
"when i think about scumfontis motivation for the claim, i have no townfonti motivation to compare it to"
(which is what that post was largely about)
So, are you just pretending not to get it or what?
Proph using it a handful of times in wall is what brought this to mind, but hes definitely not the first this game. Especially around claims.
The process shouldnt be "why would they _____ as scum?"
It should be why they would do it as town. Because as scum the answer is sometimes just "because thats what id do as town" or even "because i can get away with it"
So take kcc.
That early soft ("i have a scummy role" or whatever) made me want to file her as town and ignore. Partially because as scum you can just fake claim but thats against my own advice lol. But as town its kinda like claiming miller? I assume she knows about the concept from playing before my time but its pretty basic it makes sense.
But then take fonti.
Her CC of axel makes zero goddamn sense to me. And if she did believe it then her handling of axel since then makes no sense to me. So i cant super answer what scumfonti was doing there but like... compared to what
And then theres nacho
Who fake CCed for a reaction test, or, if hes scum... for a reaction test. And because he does that sort of thing/thinks he can get away with it.
I dont think its a good reaction test. And i think it ultimately screwed us out of a productive day 1. But he couldnt possibly know that.
And then vaimes role useage
Which is a mediocre play for towncred regardless of his alignment. When trying to use it as a rolecop is clearly better as either alignment...
Like theres a lot of actions people take in a game that arent something you would do. But just stopping at "why would scum do that?" is lazy and only works if youre reading yourself
i mean im sort of pretending it doesnt exist and not making it part of my read beyond "well if its one in fonti/axel it's prolly fonti anyway"
Yes, because "it doesn't make sense to me" is a fully thought-out explanation.
I still like Vaimes's early play surrounding the attack on me. I like the way he carries himself when he does it (as he does in 75 when talking about my early responses to KCC's claim, and I think that's the piece generally missing from Vaimes's play as scum. Proph and maybe someone else brought up that not reading Vaimes town = Vaimes scum but I thought it was more the blend of waffling then cocksure then waffling sort of mess that is his town play that he has trouble replicating.
I understand's Gemma's reasons for townreading KJ in 126 and agree that it would be an unusual way for him to carry himself if scum unless he's just looking for something easy to dig into.
Silver's thought process of his read on me here seems fairly genuine to me; I like thoughts like this that have a bit of depth but don't actually go anywhere because it's something that scum have no reason to post but to pretend to be town (doesn't advance any adjectives, isn't something widely recognized as town), so positive lean here.
There's been a lot of talk of M1ndreaver's game early being SO HORRIBLY SCUMMY because he can't post as scum, but his most recent scum ISO shows that he's pretty okay with posting? He also never posted with the type of confidence he did here and the play he did here still seems outside his scumrange but I can acknowledge that might be me confbiasing, but, in particular the "don't trust me now but in a few weeks I'll be obvious" + "hulk hogan swing" (which is a significant swing whether you think it fell flat or not) is much much different from his response to LW telling him that he's considering shooting him being "welp I MIGHT be the best kill???".
Vaimes's thought process jumping from 208-210 seems genuine, again. As far as I can tell, Vaimes's process as scum has never been "post whatever the **** he wants" and I think as scum there would be a little more filter/thinking before posting than there was there.
I've expressed this before, but Silver's dramatique surrounding a weirdly weak attack on M1nd & Asta for RVS shenanigans does seem like it's more likely to be town than not. I don't see Silver as a scum player that possesses the skill and the foresight to drum up some fake excitement for a Page 1 read that's based on the possibility of Asta not being new, which was something that was widely known/established/not difficult to research/a tinfoil thought anyways.
I definitely feel Gemma's observations of fulcrum eating away at my Silver townread and her response to that being this (ignoring her actual point and instead just prodding along on the offensive) is gross.
Did a little reading into Eurovision and one thing that I was falsely townreading Rhand for is guiltripping, but his content here is definitely somewhere between Eurovision and Modern Mafia, not incredibly inspiring like I would hope it would be.
In his big reads list, I'm starting to become a bit more sensitive to all of the "this is what town says when they mislynch me..." talk, seems like weird jedi mind trick type of talk to convince people that he's a mislynch.
I also don't really like a few of his reads; Gemma again pointed out that a lot of it is just a mishmash and doesn't really track with a townie forming a gamestate and I most certainly agree. There are pieces of his readslist like the Silver read which doesn't really seem to have any reason to call Silver town but is still a top tier townread and then stuff like criticizing LW for doing the Legend of Zelda thing which is just dumb or calling Vaimes town because he's light and fun but then pointing out that he can fake that as scum (even though that's not a disclaimed he posted in Modern Mafia).
And this is a BEEP BEEP maybe conf bias moment but I also don't like this quote in the readslist: "Her first post feels like she distances herself from town a bit with how she talks about tom. Probably NAI though because she hasn’t been active on the site for a while."
Why is it NAI when fulcrum says something in a way that distances herself from the town since she's been away from the site for a while while when I say something that distances myself from the town it's not NAI even though I've also been away from the site for a little while?
I'd like to shoot in nacho/keldeo/vaimes/kcc/fulcrum. I strongly prefer nacho with vaimes coming in second pretty closely and kcc in third. I kinda like what keldeo has been posting, but m1ndreaver left a sour taste in my mouth so I'm not completely opposed to that shot. I'm also of two minds on fulcrum so good arguments for or against could sway me here too.
Keldeo I'm colder on now, he seems pretty okay compared to the one town game. I wouldn't say he's a top townread or anything but he does seem pretty, like, friendly and naive in the other game (naive in the sense of, not really paranoid about being pocketed or maneuvered by wolves and treating everyone like his friend who isn't maybe a wolf) and that clears up ~most of the things I disliked about him.
I don't really have words for the others right now.
Nacho getting onboard with Rhand being a wolf is both vindicating and terrifying. Hum.
@Nacho: I am aware I migh have confirmation bias vs you, and that probably seeped through in how I read your posts. I prefer Vaimes being lynched over you now because I have doubts you can be scum together and Vaimes at this point is a bigger scum read than you are. You both didn’t use your roles pro-town, but I have doubts Vaimes’ role can co-exist with mine in town, and Vaimes kind of shut down and isn’t helping progress at all.
With regards to Silver: I sometimes have troubles outing why I think someone is town (or scum for that matter), but I have a high success rate and am very much sold on Silver being town and have been for a long time.
Hey Nacho, don't ******* hide behind Gemma's assessment of me to accuse me of "eating away at your Silver read," when I was actually pointing out something you were wrong. And, btw, my response to Gemma was directly addressing her point.
Hey Nacho, don't ******* hide behind Gemma's assessment of me to accuse me of "eating away at your Silver read," when I was actually pointing out something you were wrong. And, btw, my response to Gemma was directly addressing her point.
Taking what she has to say into account doesn't mean that I'm hiding behind her. You saying that I had to be prodded in order to reassess my silver read didn't address the meat of her point; me not immediately changing a read when corrected doesn't mean that I have static reads and it certainly doesn't show that you took the time to look into any of my later posts, which was the point you skipped past.
Hey Nacho, don't ******* hide behind Gemma's assessment of me to accuse me of "eating away at your Silver read," when I was actually pointing out something you were wrong. And, btw, my response to Gemma was directly addressing her point.
Taking what she has to say into account doesn't mean that I'm hiding behind her. You saying that I had to be prodded in order to reassess my silver read didn't address the meat of her point; me not immediately changing a read when corrected doesn't mean that I have static reads and it certainly doesn't show that you took the time to look into any of my later posts, which was the point you skipped past.
My specific issue was that we talked about Silver's alignment, you got new info, and then you just ended the conversation. This was resolved, later, when you took it into account. Gemma commented on my feeling about you, I explained why I felt that way with that question, we went from there. It was a direct address.
And yes, you cherry picking one thing she said about me over long conversations when she cannot clarify is hiding behind her.
I appreciate Axelrod's effort to understand what I'm saying in 305 and feel it's less likely a position he takes when he's a wolf, and I like his indignant tone when pressed to give more information, particularly the response to me attacking him for not providing much - digging in and saying that he will give content when he's good and ready seems like an angle he's more likely to take as scum as opposed to the "it's still early and I HAVE provided enough already, look!
Rhand taking time to offer his thoughts on Tom's posts here is a fair amount of effort to ingratiate himself to Tom if he's scum here.
I don't get why LW would take the time to dump on Vaimes if he's scum here. If they're scum together, maybe, but Vaimes's annoyance seems to genuine for that while if Vaimes is town then is this him trying to get on Vaimes's good side? Probably not.
I think the reason I like LW is that he tends to oscillate from the sort of "posts that LW are making as he thinks aloud to himself" like #343 to some of the stronger pushes that he makes down the road - he seems so absolutely rudderless in a way that I can't help but think comes from town.
Someone brought up that fulcrum's frustration here was more likely to be town than not because scum wouldn't be as bothered by tom's antics as she would was here, and I... sort of agree? Like she could be taking A Stand (tm) here or she could be getting mad here because it's what she would do as town, but the point where tom's antics are the most annoying is because the existence of them is getting in the way of you being able to read his slot or getting in the way of him winning and this is pretty potent for an act.
Useless observation of the day is: KCC was the only person who claimed to understand what tom was saying and didn't give a crack at determining what he was saying. More importantly, her reasons for backing off fulcrum here were exceptionally weak - I don't really think that fulcrum's initial objections about people interpreting tom's post restriction were unclear, per se... until I read her clarification in 417 which I DO understand, so, meh?
This unprompted dance down memory lane from Axelrod also town. I can understand feeling clash-y with me and taking a glance back to old games to see if we were two people who normally got along and trying to get a baseline - as scum though, it's a very clean detail to add. And I know that I complained about tom's timing back when all he had were raps to contribute, but the timing on this Axelrod read does feel genuine/puts him in an awkward position if Axel is town here.
446 is one of those small paranoid townie thoughts that I was looking for in KJ - don't think he brings this up and starts showing weird cracks when he's universally townread and no one is messing with him at all - thinks he instead just keeps on doing what he was doing until something goes any way but "absolutely perfect".
I don't like his waffling on Axelrod because it doesn't feel genuine in the least bit: on one side, he's balancing "Axelrod could be town that just thinks differently" and on the other he's balancing "but my early reads are really good...." and I can't say I buy that at all, just seems like a replacement for the actual reasoning he would have if town.
I don't like him backing off his tom townread because he was wrong with some interpretations then kind of holding onto it because "tom's reads are bolded", just feels like a clanky read change.
I don't understand why dk decides to look at his wagon when his wagon doesn't seem to have anything interesting behind it and doesn't seem to interest him in the least bit, but... he does it anyways?
Axelrod freaking out about vez saying there was a positive reaction to Gemma's gifs and there not being a positive reaction here is opportunistic - there's not really scum motivation in pretending that people were townreading Gemma's gifs when they weren't, is there?
Yeah, trying to look at the votes on me from Monday is literally useless.
Then why would you do it anyways...?
I don't like the "why haven't you remotely considered Gemma is buddying you" question from dk, just seems like its intent is to eat at the Gemma read as a whole and not at all a "trying to figure things out" type of way considering he's not particularly suspicious of me OR Gemma.
Hey Nacho, don't ******* hide behind Gemma's assessment of me to accuse me of "eating away at your Silver read," when I was actually pointing out something you were wrong. And, btw, my response to Gemma was directly addressing her point.
Taking what she has to say into account doesn't mean that I'm hiding behind her. You saying that I had to be prodded in order to reassess my silver read didn't address the meat of her point; me not immediately changing a read when corrected doesn't mean that I have static reads and it certainly doesn't show that you took the time to look into any of my later posts, which was the point you skipped past.
My specific issue was that we talked about Silver's alignment, you got new info, and then you just ended the conversation. This was resolved, later, when you took it into account. Gemma commented on my feeling about you, I explained why I felt that way with that question, we went from there. It was a direct address.
And yes, you cherry picking one thing she said about me over long conversations when she cannot clarify is hiding behind her.
Ehhh... I don't think I'm doing a ton of cherry picking here.
I mean, I'm rereading the game, so there's going to be a lot of cherry picking as a dredge old ***** up and try to make a forest, but as far as the "addressing my later posts as a whole and seeing if you still felt I had preformed reads" you said that you were processing them and then... nothing?
So if I'm misrepresenting a long conversation you and Gemma had link me to posts and I'll correct it but I don't think I'm being unfair with my interpretation here.
Hey Nacho, don't ******* hide behind Gemma's assessment of me to accuse me of "eating away at your Silver read," when I was actually pointing out something you were wrong. And, btw, my response to Gemma was directly addressing her point.
Taking what she has to say into account doesn't mean that I'm hiding behind her. You saying that I had to be prodded in order to reassess my silver read didn't address the meat of her point; me not immediately changing a read when corrected doesn't mean that I have static reads and it certainly doesn't show that you took the time to look into any of my later posts, which was the point you skipped past.
My specific issue was that we talked about Silver's alignment, you got new info, and then you just ended the conversation. This was resolved, later, when you took it into account. Gemma commented on my feeling about you, I explained why I felt that way with that question, we went from there. It was a direct address.
And yes, you cherry picking one thing she said about me over long conversations when she cannot clarify is hiding behind her.
Ehhh... I don't think I'm doing a ton of cherry picking here.
I mean, I'm rereading the game, so there's going to be a lot of cherry picking as a dredge old ***** up and try to make a forest, but as far as the "addressing my later posts as a whole and seeing if you still felt I had preformed reads" you said that you were processing them and then... nothing?
So if I'm misrepresenting a long conversation you and Gemma had link me to posts and I'll correct it but I don't think I'm being unfair with my interpretation here.
I mean, I later called you town, so that should show you how the read change.
Sorry, Tom, could you reword or restate what you mean by “compared to what”? I’m probably just stuck on parsing it as an intro to “what town fonti would have done, blah blah blah” but I don’t understand.
"when i think about scumfontis motivation for the claim, i have no townfonti motivation to compare it to"
(which is what that post was largely about)
So, are you just pretending not to get it or what?
Proph using it a handful of times in wall is what brought this to mind, but hes definitely not the first this game. Especially around claims.
The process shouldnt be "why would they _____ as scum?"
It should be why they would do it as town. Because as scum the answer is sometimes just "because thats what id do as town" or even "because i can get away with it"
So take kcc.
That early soft ("i have a scummy role" or whatever) made me want to file her as town and ignore. Partially because as scum you can just fake claim but thats against my own advice lol. But as town its kinda like claiming miller? I assume she knows about the concept from playing before my time but its pretty basic it makes sense.
But then take fonti.
Her CC of axel makes zero goddamn sense to me. And if she did believe it then her handling of axel since then makes no sense to me. So i cant super answer what scumfonti was doing there but like... compared to what
And then theres nacho
Who fake CCed for a reaction test, or, if hes scum... for a reaction test. And because he does that sort of thing/thinks he can get away with it.
I dont think its a good reaction test. And i think it ultimately screwed us out of a productive day 1. But he couldnt possibly know that.
And then vaimes role useage
Which is a mediocre play for towncred regardless of his alignment. When trying to use it as a rolecop is clearly better as either alignment...
Like theres a lot of actions people take in a game that arent something you would do. But just stopping at "why would scum do that?" is lazy and only works if youre reading yourself
i mean im sort of pretending it doesnt exist and not making it part of my read beyond "well if its one in fonti/axel it's prolly fonti anyway"
Yes, because "it doesn't make sense to me" is a fully thought-out explanation.
it seems like a pretty good reason/explanation for ignoring something...
Like ive seen both your claims. Theres one minor overlap among your combined 7 abilities?
In a game where abilities mostly work a quarter of the time... that doesnt move the needle for me more than a percentage point or two.
Maybe 5% if the overlap is in the same season.
So obviously we're interpreting setup somewhat differently for you to think thats a CC as either alignment. So i feel im pretty unlikely to gain anything useful looking at your mindset there.
And i cant imagine your role itself is very alignment indicative. Could be a crappy town info role, could be a <stronger but youre lying a little> scum info role.
So...
What should i be taking from that? You think your claim makes you town? Your role? Did you actually read the original post youre now reacting to?
I dont have a lot to say about nachos catchup so far but putting weight behind the only confirmed towns reads and not making a show of it is a good look prolly
Don't think I have a very accurate view of the gamestate compared to people who have been playing this game since the beginning, but hopefully I gave some of you a perspective change since reading this thread is a S L O G.
i think shows that prophs aware he needs to interact after catchup.
But all of his posts after are backwards looking.
He explains his reads more when asked, but has no real questions in return. Or even thoughtfulness.
Think this post, in particular, doesnt match that mindset at all. Treating his reads as an entity separate from himself kinda:
Re: Killjoy, what do you mean he’s trying to apply lessons learned from previous games?
Killjoy has been on record saying that has been wanting to improve his mafia game (I think it was around Modern Mafia that this happened, though it may have been a bit earlier). IIRC he said something like this in the Modern Mafia spec chat:
Quote from Killjoy »
So I'm curious: what actually makes me scummy? I feel like Axel is right and it's a style thing.
Megiddo and KCC chimed in with some advice and that's the sense I'm getting from KJ this game. He's trying to apply lessons learned from his previous games in a way that I think doesn't manifest like the way it does in this game if he rolled a red alignment.
Quote from Keldeo »
Tell me more about Silver and Wisp, if you could? Your actual observations there seem kind of... tame compared to the magnitude of read you’re representing - “idk don’t really think he’d do this as mafia” and blue town. Is there something more to it that I’m missing?
They're somewhat tame because Silver and Last I think are more town for body of work stuff rather than a few specific posts, and I've been using my own personal (maybe outdated in the case of Silver?) meta for them. Can go into it a little more when I'm done with finals hell if you wish.
Quote from Keldeo »
What do you think of fulcrum’s towncase on Vaimes wrt both their alignments?
This is something I will get to after finals hell; will put it on the list.
Quote from Keldeo »
And overall, I’m just wondering - how much of these reads were things you had when you made that post about being caught up to the first 1000, and how much was developed/fully articulated or fleshed out between then and now? Or to put it another way, can you tell me about which reads shifted the most for you between those spots in catchup?
Around the first 1000 posts my reads were super consensus-y (for example I was side-eyeing Axel before I got to his watcher claim). It's hard for me to really answer this question because I'm super disorganized when I catch up.
Basically, the way I went through it was I opened up a Private Game Thread on MU and had it open the same time I was reading through the thread, and I just jotted down my instinctual thoughts every time I read through a post. Rinse and repeat every 500 posts, then I have a bunch of instinctual reactions that I clean up in order to make a developed reads list. So it's hard to really answer your question given that I didn't keep track of my reads in an organized way when I was reading through the thread.
Quote from Keldeo »
Also, what were you scumreading Grape for before you saw the claim?
This was somewhat due to the Slothful slot since I was used to him being a fairly analytical wallposter on DLP (not 100% sure, haven't played with him in years) and he didn't really show me that side of him in his posts here. Also thought Grape was scum when he was catching up because he didn't have the nuance I was looking for in catchup posts.
also, i really hate this post, and think proph/dkings is almost definitely not w/w
@Proph did you see dkings claimed bodyguard when run up on D1? Do you think it's a fake claim/role?
IIRC we only stopped lynching him because he crumbed his role a little bit earlier D1? Think that dkings is adept at fake claiming as either alignment (I recall he bragged that he crumbed a PR to be shot as Vanilla Town in The Walking Dead Mafia - holy sh!t how do I remember this, my mafia memory is kind of wild). Not really opposed to lynching bodyguard claims and if I wasn't working on a large group project around EoD1 deadline I would have pushed for dkings's lynch.
Like, there's a weird sort of dissonance when I try to step into his shoes though, he has some fairly strong reads but then undercuts them by saying he doesn't think they're as good as anyone else's reads because he hasn't actually been playing the game.
I guess what I'm really objecting to is that I'm not sure dkingsland reads like a mislunch he's pushing? Both of his wolf reads feel kind of throw away to me.
If dkings is town pushing him would very much be a short term move for a wolf. But that tracks with what i know of prophs scumgame- wouldnt really be planning to endgame this *****.
Think his dkings push is a bit throwaway looking in the wall, but he defends it multiple times (to dkings in a wall, and reaffirms his memory of dkings in modern to axel) in addition to that shady dismissal of the claim i posted.
Like yes, proph is a "consider all angles" sort as both alignments. You could call that hedgey or something but i think its just prophy. And making him strongest scum in wall and reinforcing 3 times definitely makes that his intended push.
Like, there's a weird sort of dissonance when I try to step into his shoes though, he has some fairly strong reads but then undercuts them by saying he doesn't think they're as good as anyone else's reads because he hasn't actually been playing the game.
this is kinda the point
Because he makes that undercut/statement and then... listens to no one and keeps saying what hes saying in every post since...
Yes it is framed as "explaining his reads" which partially explains that but
Yeah theres no sign hes listening to anyone that has been here the whole time. No doubt. No curiosity.
@asta is that a correct interpretation of your #2884? I read it as narrowed two lists down and came to two top choices but you werent actually explicit
@keldeo did i miss your answer? I remember you going through all your townreads and then just... letting the remainder float.
@everyone does this list reflect your opinion?
I think my final answer is "proph on scum equity alone, kcc/keldeo better info. Fonti somewhere in between" and dont really care THAT much between the 4
Time to get spicy with some setupgaming i dont really believe in and cant be held accountable for:
if you define an info role as broadly as possible, we can group--
Axel/fonti/silver: directly claimed info roles
Vezok/grape: pregame info on eachother
Vaimes: gives track/neighbor (unproven abilities, but vezok confirms options/general role). Also sort of a rolecop
Proph: unknown role but target is informed
Proph include is probably a stretch even for this exercise but that is technically an amount of info and we know nothing else
And then we define manipulative as broadly as possible, aka "changes default game rules"--
Tom: saying no more than putting myself in one of two categories
Kcc: effects actions
Nacho: effects seasons
Dkings: effects kills
Last: effects *stuff*
Asta: effects lynch scum dayvig: effects life
Vaimes: mostly in the other pile but does take abilities?
Other groups--
Day use/activation: tom/dkings/nacho/vaimes/dayvig + vez/grape, asta
Best in summer: axel/dkings/kcc/dayvig (not doing the other seasons we dont have the info we just have a lot of summer claimed)
Doesnt care about season?: grape/vez/last/nacho/vaimes/proph (i think all of these are actually guesses lol)
Non-targetting: grape/vez/last/asta/nacho/fonti
4 abilities: axel/kcc
3 abilities: fonti/vaimes*
(Last=6, dkings=1)
Im not gonna say too much about these groupings other than each is likely to contain a =rand number of scum. Obviously some of that is gonna be unreliable, especially with #of abilities because lol scum can just lie.
But these sorts of groupings are increasingly useful once we get more flips
Id also like to commend the unclaimed regardless of alignment: gemma/keldeo/kj/rhand completely unclaimed
Proph/silver/asta/(me) only softs/public info
but I have doubts Vaimes’ role can co-exist with mine in town
I have doubts that, due to the general nature of a closed role-madness setup, people in this game are capable of objectively evaluating whether or not roles truly overlap in a way that suggests a true dichotomy. Unless you're a vendor, in which case, speak up.
Otherwise I think it's a non-issue and completely irrelevant.
At this point I don't really care who we kill. I personally don't see myself getting engaged until we move on, so for people who think that me not posting is scummy: it will continue.
If people still need time to do something that absolutely has to be said before Night, fine, you do you.
I'm changing my preferences to tom's final four. Maybe swap out fulcrum for Nacho.
tom are you actually reading my posts? I am not “completely unclaimed”.
Not that I want to say more right now, but it bothers me that you missed that.
ok yeah you softed i guess.
Have you said anything other than implying overlap with vaimes?
i think i would take an inventor/giftgiver, maybe an item stealer, as a CC but id still have to think about it in this game + learn more about prophs blue orbs because could be a trichotomy with the 3 of you with proph the wolf or something so honestly i doubt id want you to claim more theres already far too much info out there
Announcing intent to kill nacho when I wake up. Probably 10 hours or so.
I want to say, not the best choice, but then I have to acknowledge I am not doing anything to find a better one. The game does need to move forward. So, I'm absolving you for whatever you do here. Except shooting me. That would be dumb. But then again, I wouldn't be around to chastise you for it either.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@tom yes I have. What is out there about my role is that there is a slight overlap with Vaimes which I don’t consider strong enough to actually counterclaim, so I won’t, and that I did not want to end the Day yesterday on a no-lynch for role-related reasons.
I feel a lot worse about tom now for what Axel just pointed out. Tom loves open wolfing and that post about who his buddies would be is totally useless and fits perfectly in that meta.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Uh. I was gonna pop in to V/LA to Monday cause I'm pretty overloaded tonight with family holiday stuff, but I'll be in tonight to ISO my non-townreads if Vezok is definitely shooting in 8h
I feel a lot worse about tom now for what Axel just pointed out. Tom loves open wolfing and that post about who his buddies would be is totally useless and fits perfectly in that meta.
i dont think it was useless at all i got a towny reaction from axel and a scummy one from you
(Though neither are likely to effect my reads much)
@axel because i was thinking about it earlier (with just you and silver) and thought id add nacho since i was propping him up a little as his stock was at its lowest.
Which leads to
@keldeo for nacho im really looking back at early game. Think he loves being scum and when this game started he was having such a ***** time and being manic about stuff and it just struck as town nacho.
But as i mentioned before i havent liked much since the CC and think he had a ***** eod and a ***** day 2.
But im just sort of keeping him there and watching his catchup rn. But hey maybe he'll die and we'll see
(Not a shot i like but this is about all the arguing against it im gonna do tbh)
tom's alignment will be directly proportional to other's alignments. After we have a few more flips, then go back and ISO him... who he pushes will show his true colors.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
tom's alignment will be directly proportional to other's alignments. After we have a few more flips, then go back and ISO him... who he pushes will show his true colors.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm still working in a full catch-up. I'll finish the catch-up by Christmas if I'm not read by then.
But, if I am, anyone here who doesn't recognize me as town cannot pretend to have any small measure of ability to read me (Vaimes, Vezok). There's no way in God's earth that I as scum don't get KCC lynched (regardless of her alignment) and deal with the fallout later. There's no way in God's earth that I admit to lying about something as scum unless I'm forced to or there is an obvious pro-town narrative to the lie.
People saying that I didn't use my power in a pro-town way are additionally absolutely wrong. Kitty's posting when she was going down read extremely town to me - don't care if you understand it or not because you don't have the patience for me to form thoughts, but her seconds before death posting feels town. As a result, giving her the ability to skip her bull***** ability and instead use the strongest town protective ability around (in my opinion) and I know that unless I'm an idiot and completely wrong about Kitty that I'm letting a town player get a strong ability? When the **** else am I supposed to use my ability?
It's insulting me that people think that I am scum here because my play is so erratic and scattered - this is not the play of competent scum, and I am competent scum. This is why I hate playing town - currently I don't really know who scum is so I have to reread and try to let go of general biases even though I know I struggle doing it. I can't make ***** up and I have to spend extra time digging into nuances and trying to see if fulcrum is frustrated because she's town and misunderstood or if she's being aggressive to make me reluctant to being scumread. Being town here sucks because there's nothing here I can actually do to make people think that I'm town here because I don't have time to read enough to think things and talk about them so????
Its a sizeable percentage of her effort today. If shes scum and didnt do that, shed have to do something else, yes?
So, are you just pretending not to get it or what?
I don't think she'd have to do anything, is the point. Most of us are either lurking or spinning our wheels.
Yes, because "it doesn't make sense to me" is a fully thought-out explanation.
I understand's Gemma's reasons for townreading KJ in 126 and agree that it would be an unusual way for him to carry himself if scum unless he's just looking for something easy to dig into.
Silver's thought process of his read on me here seems fairly genuine to me; I like thoughts like this that have a bit of depth but don't actually go anywhere because it's something that scum have no reason to post but to pretend to be town (doesn't advance any adjectives, isn't something widely recognized as town), so positive lean here.
There's been a lot of talk of M1ndreaver's game early being SO HORRIBLY SCUMMY because he can't post as scum, but his most recent scum ISO shows that he's pretty okay with posting? He also never posted with the type of confidence he did here and the play he did here still seems outside his scumrange but I can acknowledge that might be me confbiasing, but, in particular the "don't trust me now but in a few weeks I'll be obvious" + "hulk hogan swing" (which is a significant swing whether you think it fell flat or not) is much much different from his response to LW telling him that he's considering shooting him being "welp I MIGHT be the best kill???".
Vaimes's thought process jumping from 208-210 seems genuine, again. As far as I can tell, Vaimes's process as scum has never been "post whatever the **** he wants" and I think as scum there would be a little more filter/thinking before posting than there was there.
I've expressed this before, but Silver's dramatique surrounding a weirdly weak attack on M1nd & Asta for RVS shenanigans does seem like it's more likely to be town than not. I don't see Silver as a scum player that possesses the skill and the foresight to drum up some fake excitement for a Page 1 read that's based on the possibility of Asta not being new, which was something that was widely known/established/not difficult to research/a tinfoil thought anyways.
I definitely feel Gemma's observations of fulcrum eating away at my Silver townread and her response to that being this (ignoring her actual point and instead just prodding along on the offensive) is gross.
Did a little reading into Eurovision and one thing that I was falsely townreading Rhand for is guiltripping, but his content here is definitely somewhere between Eurovision and Modern Mafia, not incredibly inspiring like I would hope it would be.
In his big reads list, I'm starting to become a bit more sensitive to all of the "this is what town says when they mislynch me..." talk, seems like weird jedi mind trick type of talk to convince people that he's a mislynch.
I also don't really like a few of his reads; Gemma again pointed out that a lot of it is just a mishmash and doesn't really track with a townie forming a gamestate and I most certainly agree. There are pieces of his readslist like the Silver read which doesn't really seem to have any reason to call Silver town but is still a top tier townread and then stuff like criticizing LW for doing the Legend of Zelda thing which is just dumb or calling Vaimes town because he's light and fun but then pointing out that he can fake that as scum (even though that's not a disclaimed he posted in Modern Mafia).
And this is a BEEP BEEP maybe conf bias moment but I also don't like this quote in the readslist: "Her first post feels like she distances herself from town a bit with how she talks about tom. Probably NAI though because she hasn’t been active on the site for a while."
Why is it NAI when fulcrum says something in a way that distances herself from the town since she's been away from the site for a while while when I say something that distances myself from the town it's not NAI even though I've also been away from the site for a little while?
I don't really have words for the others right now.
Nacho getting onboard with Rhand being a wolf is both vindicating and terrifying. Hum.
With regards to Silver: I sometimes have troubles outing why I think someone is town (or scum for that matter), but I have a high success rate and am very much sold on Silver being town and have been for a long time.
Taking what she has to say into account doesn't mean that I'm hiding behind her. You saying that I had to be prodded in order to reassess my silver read didn't address the meat of her point; me not immediately changing a read when corrected doesn't mean that I have static reads and it certainly doesn't show that you took the time to look into any of my later posts, which was the point you skipped past.
My specific issue was that we talked about Silver's alignment, you got new info, and then you just ended the conversation. This was resolved, later, when you took it into account. Gemma commented on my feeling about you, I explained why I felt that way with that question, we went from there. It was a direct address.
And yes, you cherry picking one thing she said about me over long conversations when she cannot clarify is hiding behind her.
Rhand taking time to offer his thoughts on Tom's posts here is a fair amount of effort to ingratiate himself to Tom if he's scum here.
I don't get why LW would take the time to dump on Vaimes if he's scum here. If they're scum together, maybe, but Vaimes's annoyance seems to genuine for that while if Vaimes is town then is this him trying to get on Vaimes's good side? Probably not.
I think the reason I like LW is that he tends to oscillate from the sort of "posts that LW are making as he thinks aloud to himself" like #343 to some of the stronger pushes that he makes down the road - he seems so absolutely rudderless in a way that I can't help but think comes from town.
Someone brought up that fulcrum's frustration here was more likely to be town than not because scum wouldn't be as bothered by tom's antics as she would was here, and I... sort of agree? Like she could be taking A Stand (tm) here or she could be getting mad here because it's what she would do as town, but the point where tom's antics are the most annoying is because the existence of them is getting in the way of you being able to read his slot or getting in the way of him winning and this is pretty potent for an act.
This unprompted dance down memory lane from Axelrod also town. I can understand feeling clash-y with me and taking a glance back to old games to see if we were two people who normally got along and trying to get a baseline - as scum though, it's a very clean detail to add. And I know that I complained about tom's timing back when all he had were raps to contribute, but the timing on this Axelrod read does feel genuine/puts him in an awkward position if Axel is town here.
446 is one of those small paranoid townie thoughts that I was looking for in KJ - don't think he brings this up and starts showing weird cracks when he's universally townread and no one is messing with him at all - thinks he instead just keeps on doing what he was doing until something goes any way but "absolutely perfect".
Rhand's 487 is... something.
I don't like his waffling on Axelrod because it doesn't feel genuine in the least bit: on one side, he's balancing "Axelrod could be town that just thinks differently" and on the other he's balancing "but my early reads are really good...." and I can't say I buy that at all, just seems like a replacement for the actual reasoning he would have if town.
I don't like him backing off his tom townread because he was wrong with some interpretations then kind of holding onto it because "tom's reads are bolded", just feels like a clanky read change.
I don't understand why dk decides to look at his wagon when his wagon doesn't seem to have anything interesting behind it and doesn't seem to interest him in the least bit, but... he does it anyways?
Axelrod freaking out about vez saying there was a positive reaction to Gemma's gifs and there not being a positive reaction here is opportunistic - there's not really scum motivation in pretending that people were townreading Gemma's gifs when they weren't, is there?
Then why would you do it anyways...?
I don't like the "why haven't you remotely considered Gemma is buddying you" question from dk, just seems like its intent is to eat at the Gemma read as a whole and not at all a "trying to figure things out" type of way considering he's not particularly suspicious of me OR Gemma.
Ehhh... I don't think I'm doing a ton of cherry picking here.
I mean, I'm rereading the game, so there's going to be a lot of cherry picking as a dredge old ***** up and try to make a forest, but as far as the "addressing my later posts as a whole and seeing if you still felt I had preformed reads" you said that you were processing them and then... nothing?
So if I'm misrepresenting a long conversation you and Gemma had link me to posts and I'll correct it but I don't think I'm being unfair with my interpretation here.
I mean, I later called you town, so that should show you how the read change.
Like ive seen both your claims. Theres one minor overlap among your combined 7 abilities?
In a game where abilities mostly work a quarter of the time... that doesnt move the needle for me more than a percentage point or two.
Maybe 5% if the overlap is in the same season.
So obviously we're interpreting setup somewhat differently for you to think thats a CC as either alignment. So i feel im pretty unlikely to gain anything useful looking at your mindset there.
And i cant imagine your role itself is very alignment indicative. Could be a crappy town info role, could be a <stronger but youre lying a little> scum info role.
So...
What should i be taking from that? You think your claim makes you town? Your role? Did you actually read the original post youre now reacting to?
I think ill just start with "his catchup was ~fine"
I argued against townreading it but im not actively scumreading it either
Buti think shows that prophs aware he needs to interact after catchup.
But all of his posts after are backwards looking.
He explains his reads more when asked, but has no real questions in return. Or even thoughtfulness.
Think this post, in particular, doesnt match that mindset at all. Treating his reads as an entity separate from himself kinda:
Which is... possible. Obviously. But man there is no drive there.
Like, you're positing that Proph is a wolf and decided to try to mislunch town!dk by saying the claim could be fake
I dunno kind of feel like he'd find a different push instead of trying to walk that one up hill?
I guess what I'm really objecting to is that I'm not sure dkingsland reads like a mislunch he's pushing? Both of his wolf reads feel kind of throw away to me.
Think his dkings push is a bit throwaway looking in the wall, but he defends it multiple times (to dkings in a wall, and reaffirms his memory of dkings in modern to axel) in addition to that shady dismissal of the claim i posted.
Like yes, proph is a "consider all angles" sort as both alignments. You could call that hedgey or something but i think its just prophy. And making him strongest scum in wall and reinforcing 3 times definitely makes that his intended push.
Because he makes that undercut/statement and then... listens to no one and keeps saying what hes saying in every post since...
Yes it is framed as "explaining his reads" which partially explains that but
Yeah theres no sign hes listening to anyone that has been here the whole time. No doubt. No curiosity.
Imo
I skimmed his other posts but they didn't really stick in my memory, felt like he was just reiterating what he already said a bit or something
Last/Axel/Silver/asta
kj/nacho/dkings
vaimes/rhand
fulcrum/kcc/keldeo
proph
Top shot choices:
Tom: proph/kcc
Vezok: nacho/axel
Grape: dkings/proph/keldeo
Last: fulcrum/kcc
Axel: vaimes
Silver: keldeo/rhand
Asta: kcc/keldeo
Kj: keldeo/silver/kcc
Dkings: kcc/nacho
Rhand: nacho/vaimes
Vaimes: fulcrum/nacho
Kcc: nacho/fulcrum
Fulcrum: keldeo/rhand
Proph: dkings/vaimes
Still hasnt stated scumreads?:
Keldeo
Nacho
@asta is that a correct interpretation of your #2884? I read it as narrowed two lists down and came to two top choices but you werent actually explicit
@keldeo did i miss your answer? I remember you going through all your townreads and then just... letting the remainder float.
@everyone does this list reflect your opinion?
I think my final answer is "proph on scum equity alone, kcc/keldeo better info. Fonti somewhere in between" and dont really care THAT much between the 4
Axel/fonti/silver: directly claimed info roles
Vezok/grape: pregame info on eachother
Vaimes: gives track/neighbor (unproven abilities, but vezok confirms options/general role). Also sort of a rolecop
Proph: unknown role but target is informed
Proph include is probably a stretch even for this exercise but that is technically an amount of info and we know nothing else
And then we define manipulative as broadly as possible, aka "changes default game rules"--
Tom: saying no more than putting myself in one of two categories
Kcc: effects actions
Nacho: effects seasons
Dkings: effects kills
Last: effects *stuff*
Asta: effects lynch
scum dayvig: effects life
Vaimes: mostly in the other pile but does take abilities?
Other groups--
Day use/activation: tom/dkings/nacho/vaimes/dayvig + vez/grape, asta
Best in summer: axel/dkings/kcc/dayvig (not doing the other seasons we dont have the info we just have a lot of summer claimed)
Doesnt care about season?: grape/vez/last/nacho/vaimes/proph (i think all of these are actually guesses lol)
Non-targetting: grape/vez/last/asta/nacho/fonti
4 abilities: axel/kcc
3 abilities: fonti/vaimes*
(Last=6, dkings=1)
Im not gonna say too much about these groupings other than each is likely to contain a =rand number of scum. Obviously some of that is gonna be unreliable, especially with #of abilities because lol scum can just lie.
But these sorts of groupings are increasingly useful once we get more flips
Id also like to commend the unclaimed regardless of alignment:
gemma/keldeo/kj/rhand completely unclaimedProph/silver/asta/(me) only softs/public info
Not that I want to say more right now, but it bothers me that you missed that.
Otherwise I think it's a non-issue and completely irrelevant.
If people still need time to do something that absolutely has to be said before Night, fine, you do you.
I'm changing my preferences to tom's final four. Maybe swap out fulcrum for Nacho.
Have you said anything other than implying overlap with vaimes?
can u just kill someone? plz?
Announcing intent to kill nacho when I wake up. Probably 10 hours or so.
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I want to say, not the best choice, but then I have to acknowledge I am not doing anything to find a better one. The game does need to move forward. So, I'm absolving you for whatever you do here. Except shooting me. That would be dumb. But then again, I wouldn't be around to chastise you for it either.
I feel a lot worse about tom now for what Axel just pointed out. Tom loves open wolfing and that post about who his buddies would be is totally useless and fits perfectly in that meta.
I would prefer Vaimes over Nacho, but I am not opposed.
I am generally okay with tom's bottom tier. Can you tell me about Nacho green?
(Though neither are likely to effect my reads much)
@axel because i was thinking about it earlier (with just you and silver) and thought id add nacho since i was propping him up a little as his stock was at its lowest.
Which leads to
@keldeo for nacho im really looking back at early game. Think he loves being scum and when this game started he was having such a ***** time and being manic about stuff and it just struck as town nacho.
But as i mentioned before i havent liked much since the CC and think he had a ***** eod and a ***** day 2.
But im just sort of keeping him there and watching his catchup rn. But hey maybe he'll die and we'll see
(Not a shot i like but this is about all the arguing against it im gonna do tbh)
also, proph could be scum.
But, if I am, anyone here who doesn't recognize me as town cannot pretend to have any small measure of ability to read me (Vaimes, Vezok). There's no way in God's earth that I as scum don't get KCC lynched (regardless of her alignment) and deal with the fallout later. There's no way in God's earth that I admit to lying about something as scum unless I'm forced to or there is an obvious pro-town narrative to the lie.
People saying that I didn't use my power in a pro-town way are additionally absolutely wrong. Kitty's posting when she was going down read extremely town to me - don't care if you understand it or not because you don't have the patience for me to form thoughts, but her seconds before death posting feels town. As a result, giving her the ability to skip her bull***** ability and instead use the strongest town protective ability around (in my opinion) and I know that unless I'm an idiot and completely wrong about Kitty that I'm letting a town player get a strong ability? When the **** else am I supposed to use my ability?
It's insulting me that people think that I am scum here because my play is so erratic and scattered - this is not the play of competent scum, and I am competent scum. This is why I hate playing town - currently I don't really know who scum is so I have to reread and try to let go of general biases even though I know I struggle doing it. I can't make ***** up and I have to spend extra time digging into nuances and trying to see if fulcrum is frustrated because she's town and misunderstood or if she's being aggressive to make me reluctant to being scumread. Being town here sucks because there's nothing here I can actually do to make people think that I'm town here because I don't have time to read enough to think things and talk about them so????
@Nacho thoughts on proph/post #2921