I feel like Proph's orb ***** is super testble. Can't he give one of the orbs that causes to targetter reveal their ability name when they hit another orb to someone Today, and then have that person target Vezok to confirm both their's and proph's ability.
Yeah, I agree it's pretty testable. I think Vezok has the wrong color of orb for that, though - maybe Asta would be a better target since he's supposedly unable to die. Do you think if Proph's telling the truth about what the orbs do, he's town?
Depends on the orb. The protection one, yes. The ability name seems p pretty pro town, so maybe on that one.
Nevermind it was summer yesterDay and flipped to spring after we lunched so he probably didn't get to activate it...
Sorry, ignore me
Anyway I don't think it's testable unless the orbs are given before other actions, in which case he could give an orb toDay and then give a yellow one after the lunch flips us into Fall?
Holy crap I just realized tom might've died from his lightning rod ability, it was Spring last night wasn't it?
And it was Day activated, maybe he crumbed his target?
As I understand it, I don't think he could have activated it. It's a spring day ability, and it was only spring during the day on day 1 before Nacho changed the season, and now. It's possible that tom targeted before the season changed on day 1, but that doesn't tell us anything as useful because no one died night 1.
silver, I don't think I worded my question to you about fulcrum very well. Could you point to some posts from her that make you think so?
Anyway I don't think it's testable unless the orbs are given before other actions, in which case he could give an orb toDay and then give a yellow one after the lunch flips us into Fall?
Oh, did not think about action order. The orb giving makes most sense as Miscellaneous to me, so he'd have to give a yellow orb to someone Today who has an Inspect-type action, then give an orange orb Tonight to that person's target, in order for this testing situation to work.
I guess the role name giving could be a roundabout type of info-gathering that also benefits scum, which is a bit inconvenient. But all of the ability names seem to be pretty vague on what they actually do, so I feel like its main use is probably pro-town-ish as fulcrum said.
I feel like everyone who should be pushing scum rn is just lamenting about a lack of strong reads instead, and there has to be scum satisfied with the gamestate in there, using the thread feeling as an excuse to do nothing.
I agree with this in theory, but who do you think this applies to here? I don't think Axel has really done much that isn't related to his action last night, but he seems busy in general. I feel like a lot of the people who have been semi-absent today have something mechanical going for them (masons, dk/Asta, etc.)
silver, I don't think I worded my question to you about fulcrum very well. Could you point to some posts from her that make you think so?
There was one I remember where she said she thought I was town and that "my voice is needed in the village" or something yesterDay and that was where I was like... hum.
But other than that it's been pretty subtle if present at all, and that's why I called it "oblique" if that makes sense?
I'm sorry, I'm phone posting so I can't check myself, but are there are any orbs currently out tgat could be used to check Proph's claim Tonight?
No, the only orb that's out is the blue orb shadow gave to Vezok. If Proph gives someone a blue orb and that person targets Vezok, that would protect Vezok from a kill. But even if Proph's telling the truth, if that plan is public, the mafia will probably just kill someone besides Vezok, and we get nothing.
It's possible to have silver check it toNight because his roles are probably investigative?
My understanding is that the targeter is protected from the kill not the player they targeted based on a follow up post from Proph
I'd rather not take a blue orb and target Vezok with my ability in either case, my Fall one is the only one that's part way decent and I should use it on an unclaimed player, probably, and if I'm protected in advance that takes me out of the pool of night kills entirely
If I trusted Axelrod I would vote he gets it but the PoE is really tight and he's the town read I'm least sure of
Dk would be the ideal target if his ability wasn't limited to one seasob. Actually, that miggt be why his ability is limited like that, so he can't get a blue orb and then target Vezok who also has an orb evry Night.
We could potentually combo Vaimes' gifts and the blue orbs for people like me who can't usually target.
Hm, fulcrum, I don't get your take on Rhand. Could you expand on it for me? If you think Vaimes is town, and not just not-mafia, what do you think of Rhand's insistence that his ability is too similar to Vaimes'?
Hm, fulcrum, I don't get your take on Rhand. Could you expand on it for me? If you think Vaimes is town, and not just not-mafia, what do you think of Rhand's insistence that his ability is too similar to Vaimes'?
I think he's probably wrong. I want to see the ability before deciding if that makes him scum.
Wouldn't say he's "so" town, he's my lowest townread and solidly null by behavior
It really just comes down to his role, we aren't enough investigative power and his role isn't strong enough to be a wolf investigative; it doesn't seem "correct" that they only get actionable info during Summer (particularly since dkingsland isn't watchable since he activates outside of night actions) and if I'm the strongest investigative we have, lol we're pretty screwed on that front
If we get to the massclaim and like, Killjoy claims investigative or something I'll reconsider but as of right now...
Wouldn't say he's "so" town, he's my lowest townread and solidly null by behavior
It really just comes down to his role, we aren't enough investigative power and his role isn't strong enough to be a wolf investigative; it doesn't seem "correct" that they only get actionable info during Summer (particularly since dkingsland isn't watchable since he activates outside of night actions) and if I'm the strongest investigative we have, lol we're pretty screwed on that front
If we get to the massclaim and like, Killjoy claims investigative or something I'll reconsider but as of right now...
Ok. What if I said you're underestimating the strength of my role, for reasons I don't want to talk about rn.
If all of the abilities are dramatically game altering, I think Tranquility is probably just that, a Day of peace, with no effect. That makes the most sense to me. Which, if he's scum, would have to mean either
1) He is actually completely in the dark about what the abilities do, but that seems kinda weird on scum or
2) He does know more or all of the effect, but needs to pick one every Night, and just wanted to get that blank one out of the way first. But I don't think that really makes sense as scum play either or
3) He actually didn't get a N0 ability and false claimed it knowing his future abilities would alter the Title, or similarly, a Tranquility ability was actually chosen automatically N0, because breaking D1 is probably bad game design?
The more I'm thinking about it... We could have had D1 96 hour kingmaker? Or D1 unanimous lynch? And we just all got lucky he picked an ability that didn't do anything, at least not anything noticable?
This bugs me, and I can't think of a good resolution to it.
If Wisp knows more about what his abilities do, he'd probably know that they were anti-town in some capacity, so I don't get why he would claim when he did, with no provocation or questioning. I also think that if he were mafia and knew more about his abilities, he would probably not have chosen Tranquility on night 0. Plus, from a variety of posts he's made since claiming, I just don't think that he knows what his abilities do.
But if he didn't know what his abilities did... then I guess we could have had a kingmaker, or increased majority, or something on day 1? That seems really weird. Maybe whatever he chose first silently had no effect, or something, but then why not just have his role be n1+? I don't have an answer. Maybe we did all just get lucky.
And completely separately from mechanics, I think Wisp has been towny. It's for kind of squishy reasons, which feels bad, but I've correctly townread him in the past for squishy reasons. His realizations and emotional reactions to things, like the 10 to lynch thing, feel congruent with town him. I feel like some of his pushes haven't gone anywhere, but he feels kind of agendaless in that as well, and I don't doubt his conviction. His read on me was, hm, iirc he townread me when he didn't have to, which did not feel opportunistic in a way I might expect of him as mafia. You could label that as TMI but it didn't... really feel like that, or feel like he's TMIing KCC.
I don't think Wisp saying that he talked about KCC a lot is a lie. He did mention his feelings on her throughout the game, and I think he was referring to that rather than the specific scumread or not-townread on her.
I feel like a part of your scumread on him, KCC, is that you feel that town would not get frustrated or irritated by your questioning, right? But I think it's natural for some people to become frustrated when people push them or ask for reasoning, no matter their alignment. I think Wisp saw "I have no reason to townread you," which he mentioned multiple times, as a fine answer to your question about why he thought you were a good shot, so your continued probing into it was irritating. And now, re: the TMI thing, it's like you're putting something forward and saying "this is wolfy," and reading him as asking "but why are you doing this, I don't understand why you are making this argument?" aka not understanding the possibility that you could be mafia, but I am reading his responses as saying "but why is that wolfy at all, I don't understand the argument itself?" If that makes sense.
I don't know if this is actually what is going on, but it makes sense to me as an interpretation of the situation in the context of me thinking Wisp is town, so uh. Yeah.
KCC, could you refresh me on why you think Rhand is town?
And I mean, maybe the answer is just "he's a dreaming god and they do weird stuff lol," because if Wisp actually knows what his abilities do, I think he is doing a pretty good job of pretending to not have any clue.
The sequence of KCC scumreading Wisp is very... fluid. It feels organic. It feels like she believes in it. And if you're mafia KCC in this situation, why would you push on town Last, who's not dying today, and who's the top poster? So KCC feels natural, agendaless, as well. And her tone feels genuine.
There's a note of discord here, because I feel like there's this sort of gap she's not filling, in how some of her reads interact with each other, or between different observations. She says Proph should mechanically be mafia, but everything still makes sense if he's town, and she doesn't get why he'd target Axel - which are fine observations by themselves, and there's nothing wrong with hedging, but she never joins the observations or comes down on one side, if that makes sense. I don't know how she feels on Proph in the end. She had thoughts about Nacho yesterday and Last today, and thoughts about her wagon, but didn't really put them together.
I'd also forgotten how clean her day 1 wagon was. Not like clean wagons haven't lunched villagers before, I guess.
I'll probably need to go back at some point and reread her day 1 stuff with the counterclaim, and maybe look into that Watchmen game. I at least think she isn't wolves with Proph, and maybe Proph's more likely to be mafia.
@Axel, just something I've been wondering and probably irrelevant, you said you were "Moth, Fairy Town Watcher." Do you know what the "fairy" means?
I do not know what it means. I assumed it was a character of some type. Given "Oberon" and "Titania", I just assume that a lot, if not all of us, are "Fairys." I would be slightly interested if Oberon and Titania were not also listed as "Fairy" in their role PMs. But then I'm slightly paranoid that Fairly could be a "type" that matters in some way, maybe for someone's abilities, and anyone else claiming to be one could be negatively impacted in some way?
Well, my flavor name is a fairy and I'm not a Fairy, and Asta or dkings didn't say they were Fairies either. I don't think there's any conclusion that can be drawn from this, though. Maybe it's just there to clarify that Moth is Moth, the fairy, and not moth, the insect.
I would appreciate your thoughts on Rhand, yeah. Also maybe on Proph, outside of his role, if you could.
I hope your insomnia improves soon, by the way - that sounds rough.
Wouldn't say he's "so" town, he's my lowest townread and solidly null by behavior
It really just comes down to his role, we aren't enough investigative power and his role isn't strong enough to be a wolf investigative; it doesn't seem "correct" that they only get actionable info during Summer (particularly since dkingsland isn't watchable since he activates outside of night actions) and if I'm the strongest investigative we have, lol we're pretty screwed on that front
If we get to the massclaim and like, Killjoy claims investigative or something I'll reconsider but as of right now...
Ok. What if I said you're underestimating the strength of my role, for reasons I don't want to talk about rn.
I agree with silver here - in terms of investigation, I think there's definitely something more than your claim and Silver's apparently weak role, although that may be explained by this hidden stuff. (Gemma may have had a weaker info role, as well.) I also thought Axel's claim was towny for that reason, but I'm not like, wowed by his posting.
Maybe this was already discussed and I forgot about it, but what utility do you think Axel's role would have as mafia? Also, what are your thoughts on me toDay?
silver, why do you think it's possible Asta's a wolf and made up receiving a message when he didn't actually get anything? To me, that just seems like a needless fake claim to cut down on doubt on dkings when he'd have had something fine going.
Do you think me and Rhand are w/w? KCC and Rhand? Like, from an interactions perspective.
Also, just out of curiosity, which games of mine did you read?
My understanding is that the targeter is protected from the kill not the player they targeted based on a follow up post from Proph
I'd rather not take a blue orb and target Vezok with my ability in either case, my Fall one is the only one that's part way decent and I should use it on an unclaimed player, probably, and if I'm protected in advance that takes me out of the pool of night kills entirely
If I trusted Axelrod I would vote he gets it but the PoE is really tight and he's the town read I'm least sure of
I don't see how the blue orb helps to confirm Proph isn't lying - it just confirms he sends people blue orbs, which we already know. It takes people out of the pool of night kills, but that's if he's telling the truth.
But if you don't want to do it and people don't trust Axel enough to do it, then I don't think we can send anyone else to test Proph's role, tonight.
And I mean, maybe the answer is just "he's a dreaming god and they do weird stuff lol," because if Wisp actually knows what his abilities do, I think he is doing a pretty good job of pretending to not have any clue.
The sequence of KCC scumreading Wisp is very... fluid. It feels organic. It feels like she believes in it. And if you're mafia KCC in this situation, why would you push on town Last, who's not dying today, and who's the top poster? So KCC feels natural, agendaless, as well. And her tone feels genuine.
There's a note of discord here, because I feel like there's this sort of gap she's not filling, in how some of her reads interact with each other, or between different observations. She says Proph should mechanically be mafia, but everything still makes sense if he's town, and she doesn't get why he'd target Axel - which are fine observations by themselves, and there's nothing wrong with hedging, but she never joins the observations or comes down on one side, if that makes sense. I don't know how she feels on Proph in the end. She had thoughts about Nacho yesterday and Last today, and thoughts about her wagon, but didn't really put them together.
I'd also forgotten how clean her day 1 wagon was. Not like clean wagons haven't lunched villagers before, I guess.
I'll probably need to go back at some point and reread her day 1 stuff with the counterclaim, and maybe look into that Watchmen game. I at least think she isn't wolves with Proph, and maybe Proph's more likely to be mafia.
Meh. I skimmed KCC's ISO in Watchmen, and nothing really stuck to my brain. Her tone seemed similar enough. Her push on Rhand there kind of gave me echoes of her push on Wisp here, to the extent that two pushes in different situations and game circumstances can. In the end, I think it doesn't really change how I feel, which is conflicted.
So I asked Rhand already, but if anyone else wants to look into that game or was in that game and wants to tell me about it, or even just talk to me about KCC in general, I'm all ears.
KCC: Do you have a compilation of Last TMIing you? Did you lay it all out in 3261?
Also funny story, I was thinking the game was a PitA earlier on a random theory that this game was multiball. It's unlikely now beccause the first three dead were town, unless the game still has the regular amount of scum just split teams (unlikely)
Wisp: Your offense at my scumread is weird. I don't understand why that's happening. You're not some paragon of towniness.
I'm wondering if it would be more telling for your alignment if I just don't tell you why I'm scumreading you. I might just do that.
@Grape: I'm wondering if Last did stop the kill, but didn't know he would, while scum. If he doesn't know what his abilities do, then his role would certainly fit as scum. Also I wonder what that implies as to the quantity of killing power on the town side.
Keldeo: A sillier read might be that Silver is not scum with Proph because he is the one who claimed to know Proph's ability name.
The premise is "you specifically don't want to lynch KCC because she's your buddy" not that a lynch would have been good.
I meant not w/w btw. In the vernacular of this site, unaligned means not w/w. I'm not sure there's a way to determine whether two people are not v/v.
Vezok: Why is Wisp town? Do you have something more substantial than "he's not like his past scumgames"?
Rhand: No, i mean... now that we know that Nacho is town, how do you feel about KCC pulling off of a person who could be scum to end on someone who is definitvely not. FTR, she spent a lot of the day being the only one on fulcrum, before which she was on the dkings wagon.
Even if your motives are pure... just because you both made the same vote doesn't mean you have the same motives.
Also I look forward to you telling us why your role and his can't both be town hopefully based on something better than role similarity.
Also also, please claim toDay. You're on the chopping block.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
wolf reading me and not telling me why, would irritate me even more
but again I am not trying to be townie through sheer emotions, so I'm taking a step back
and I couldnt have stopped the kill, there is no reason to believe that my first ability extended past day 1, as Grape has pointed out, also I'm starting to agree with others' thoughts on the whole, "tranquilty might just not do anything"
I am definitely more lost than I've been in most of my recent games, like the hydra game for example, and other games on MC
I would like people to read me on a more macro level, but given that when I am a wolf I tend to slip on a micro level, KCC's thoughts are understandable
but I don't feel like she is putting in the effort to understand me, guess that's karma for not actually reading her based on her posts and rather everything surrounding her soft and claim
I mean I dont think me answering yes or no will say much of anything, since self bias and everything, but I appreciate it
I have never been the best at articulating my thoughts
I wasn't asking about my townread, though - obviously you would say you're town as any alignment. Was my description of your thought process to KCC on the right track, or were you thinking something different? I'm not a mindreader.
I mean I dont think me answering yes or no will say much of anything, since self bias and everything, but I appreciate it
I have never been the best at articulating my thoughts
I wasn't asking about my townread, though - obviously you would say you're town as any alignment. Was my description of your thought process to KCC on the right track, or were you thinking something different? I'm not a mindreader.
Keldeo: A sillier read might be that Silver is not scum with Proph because he is the one who claimed to know Proph's ability name.
The premise is "you specifically don't want to lynch KCC because she's your buddy" not that a lynch would have been good.
I meant not w/w btw. In the vernacular of this site, unaligned means not w/w. I'm not sure there's a way to determine whether two people are not v/v.
You joke about Silver/Proph w/w, but I had an idea that it could be, based on Silver putting Proph in his POE but pushing other people over him most of the time. It's probably not, based on how Silver engaged Proph?
And oh, that makes a lot more sense about "unaligned." I've seen people say "not v/v" to express a feeling that there is a wolf within a pair based on reads or thread feels or something nebulously "slimy" about an interaction, but it's kind of an uncommon read / edge scenario. What do you think are the most likely worlds, re: KCC and Last?
Sorry for spamming the thread today. If people want me to, I can try to make fewer, longer posts, like I did when I was first catching up.
I'll be pretty busy over the weekend and will not be around as much.
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I think I've said a good amount of this already, stuff seems a bit static and mushy. I haven't really put a lot of effort into sorting my lower reads who aren't viable lynches Today.
Vezok and grapefruit - I think the masons are real. I wish they could be here more. Vezok's claim meant if they were mafia they must have been planning that specific fake mason team from very early on, their thoughts feel genuine, they're independently kinda towny, their conflicting reads/thoughts feel like they don't have an agenda / don't care about appearances.
Dkings and Asta I also believe are town. I am not sure what to make of the fairy telling Asta that he's being protected - if one is mafia I think it is dk. I definitely don't think they're partners, unless dkings is known to fake kind of dramatic "why would mafia ever do this" interactions with his partners? I feel like there's no reason for dk and Asta to make conflicting claims if they are partners. I think Asta is towny because of his tone generally being similar to a past villager game although that's slight, because his role combats the increased majority mechanic, and because I don't see why, if he is mafia and dkings is a villager, he would make this up. I guess I don't see what the motivation is for dkings to make it up if he is mafia, but I think it's possible that his role just doesn't say anything about being loud, and he just wanted to cast doubt on a villager. I am worried by both of them being a bit absent this phase, but I'll take it at face value that they were busy for the holidays.
I think Last is probably town, I just talked about this.
I'm bumping Killjoy up a tier from yesterday. His posting's been a bit sporadic toDay but I think his read on me is genuine, and I'm like, trusting dead villagers who have more meta on him + there's kind of a "thread spew" aspect to this, where it feels like a lot of people were just not considering him. Could say the same about Silver, for that latter part.
I still think Silver is town, as well, but it's less strong. Silver setting up the Proph/KCC dichotomy is not good if they are v/v, but I am not really sure how likely that is.
fulcrum/Axelrod is yet another dichotomy/pairing, I guess. While I thought Axel was posting better d2 than d1, he dropped off a bit Today and didn't post much outside of his action thing, I've been mulling over my thoughts about him, and it's just like. I feel like the core of why I'd take him out of my POE is his role. I didn't think he's lying about most of it and I'm not 100% sure of the use for scum, and it seems to make sense with town's seemingly limited investigative power. But fulcrum apparently disagrees based on her role, and at some point I want fulcrum to be less cryptic about that because I don't really see the similarity or why they can't necessarily coexist as town, as they are claimed. I am still getting kind of "off" vibes about how Fulcrum has treated certain things, but maybe that is just her?? I think her trying to break Proph's ability along with Vaimes' was kind of towny. I've agreed with some of the small things she's noted, like about the masons disagreeing.
I just talked about KCC, too. Her answering me about her Nacho progression earlier today was another thing that felt fluid to me. Her consideration of people pushing her since day 1 has felt a bit more... shallow, maybe? than I would expect? I don't think I'm phrasing this very well.
Rhand - honestly right now I just want to see his claim. A lot of what he says just feels reasonable, but that doesn't make him town or mafia. Intertwined with Rhand's claim is Vaimes, and I kind of want to be lazy and sheep other people and say that Vaimes is town for now, and evaluate more after Rhand claims. I probably also need to reread the early Rhand/Killjoy stuff because if I go in thinking Killjoy is town instead of not being sure, maybe I can get something out of that. Not sure if I have time for this.
Without that info for now, I still want to lynch Proph today, if we can't try to confirm his role. I know it was the holidays, but I just have not been wowed by his content or his actions. I feel like even if Silver is town and Proph picked up on the "color of spring" thing, he still might have been able to lie, if the spring ability is vague enough.
The thing is that within like, Proph/Rhand/KCC/fulcrum/Axel I've come up with enough not-partners reads that it's hard to find a coherent team, so I'm probably wrong with how I'm expecting the team to interact, or I'm just wrong somewhere higher - but I don't know where. I'll probably have to bite the bullet and do a deep dive/reassessment eventually, but for now I'm going to sleep.
I am Hades, town corpse mimic.
I am basically the backup.
Each night I can target a seasonal ability of a dead player. I get the ability and it changes to the current season.
I had no target N1 and N2.
I can take one of tom’s seasonals toNight.
I don’t believe there’s 2 roles in town that take abilities from people. That would make this setup extremely swingy. Ergo, I don’t think Vaimes can be town.
@Vaimes: Something I suddenly wonder about: when you have done an exchange, will that influence the wording of the flip?
The reason I didn’t want to claim is that I could have potentially stopped the NK with tom’s jailer ability.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Depends on the orb. The protection one, yes. The ability name seems p pretty pro town, so maybe on that one.
And it was Day activated, maybe he crumbed his target?
Sorry, ignore me
Anyway I don't think it's testable unless the orbs are given before other actions, in which case he could give an orb toDay and then give a yellow one after the lunch flips us into Fall?
silver, I don't think I worded my question to you about fulcrum very well. Could you point to some posts from her that make you think so?
I guess the role name giving could be a roundabout type of info-gathering that also benefits scum, which is a bit inconvenient. But all of the ability names seem to be pretty vague on what they actually do, so I feel like its main use is probably pro-town-ish as fulcrum said.
But other than that it's been pretty subtle if present at all, and that's why I called it "oblique" if that makes sense?
It's possible to have silver check it toNight because his roles are probably investigative?
Vezok has a Blue orb from D1
Nacho had a Yellow one from N1 but he's dead
Proph was blocked by KCC trying to give a Green orb N2
So Vezok's blue orb should be the only one in play atm
I'd rather not take a blue orb and target Vezok with my ability in either case, my Fall one is the only one that's part way decent and I should use it on an unclaimed player, probably, and if I'm protected in advance that takes me out of the pool of night kills entirely
If I trusted Axelrod I would vote he gets it but the PoE is really tight and he's the town read I'm least sure of
I do, Axel does, KCC does
Rhand might, Vaimes might depending on his wording
You don't, Vezok/Grape don't, Asta doesn't, Dkingsland might have one that's summer only
Based on claims
We could potentually combo Vaimes' gifts and the blue orbs for people like me who can't usually target.
I think he's probably wrong. I want to see the ability before deciding if that makes him scum.
It really just comes down to his role, we aren't enough investigative power and his role isn't strong enough to be a wolf investigative; it doesn't seem "correct" that they only get actionable info during Summer (particularly since dkingsland isn't watchable since he activates outside of night actions) and if I'm the strongest investigative we have, lol we're pretty screwed on that front
If we get to the massclaim and like, Killjoy claims investigative or something I'll reconsider but as of right now...
Ok. What if I said you're underestimating the strength of my role, for reasons I don't want to talk about rn.
It wouldn't make me want to kill him with prejudice or anything but I'd have to re-evaluate yeah
Then you should do that.
This bugs me, and I can't think of a good resolution to it.
If Wisp knows more about what his abilities do, he'd probably know that they were anti-town in some capacity, so I don't get why he would claim when he did, with no provocation or questioning. I also think that if he were mafia and knew more about his abilities, he would probably not have chosen Tranquility on night 0. Plus, from a variety of posts he's made since claiming, I just don't think that he knows what his abilities do.
But if he didn't know what his abilities did... then I guess we could have had a kingmaker, or increased majority, or something on day 1? That seems really weird. Maybe whatever he chose first silently had no effect, or something, but then why not just have his role be n1+? I don't have an answer. Maybe we did all just get lucky.
And completely separately from mechanics, I think Wisp has been towny. It's for kind of squishy reasons, which feels bad, but I've correctly townread him in the past for squishy reasons. His realizations and emotional reactions to things, like the 10 to lynch thing, feel congruent with town him. I feel like some of his pushes haven't gone anywhere, but he feels kind of agendaless in that as well, and I don't doubt his conviction. His read on me was, hm, iirc he townread me when he didn't have to, which did not feel opportunistic in a way I might expect of him as mafia. You could label that as TMI but it didn't... really feel like that, or feel like he's TMIing KCC.
I don't think Wisp saying that he talked about KCC a lot is a lie. He did mention his feelings on her throughout the game, and I think he was referring to that rather than the specific scumread or not-townread on her.
I feel like a part of your scumread on him, KCC, is that you feel that town would not get frustrated or irritated by your questioning, right? But I think it's natural for some people to become frustrated when people push them or ask for reasoning, no matter their alignment. I think Wisp saw "I have no reason to townread you," which he mentioned multiple times, as a fine answer to your question about why he thought you were a good shot, so your continued probing into it was irritating. And now, re: the TMI thing, it's like you're putting something forward and saying "this is wolfy," and reading him as asking "but why are you doing this, I don't understand why you are making this argument?" aka not understanding the possibility that you could be mafia, but I am reading his responses as saying "but why is that wolfy at all, I don't understand the argument itself?" If that makes sense.
I don't know if this is actually what is going on, but it makes sense to me as an interpretation of the situation in the context of me thinking Wisp is town, so uh. Yeah.
KCC, could you refresh me on why you think Rhand is town?
The sequence of KCC scumreading Wisp is very... fluid. It feels organic. It feels like she believes in it. And if you're mafia KCC in this situation, why would you push on town Last, who's not dying today, and who's the top poster? So KCC feels natural, agendaless, as well. And her tone feels genuine.
There's a note of discord here, because I feel like there's this sort of gap she's not filling, in how some of her reads interact with each other, or between different observations. She says Proph should mechanically be mafia, but everything still makes sense if he's town, and she doesn't get why he'd target Axel - which are fine observations by themselves, and there's nothing wrong with hedging, but she never joins the observations or comes down on one side, if that makes sense. I don't know how she feels on Proph in the end. She had thoughts about Nacho yesterday and Last today, and thoughts about her wagon, but didn't really put them together.
I'd also forgotten how clean her day 1 wagon was. Not like clean wagons haven't lunched villagers before, I guess.
I'll probably need to go back at some point and reread her day 1 stuff with the counterclaim, and maybe look into that Watchmen game. I at least think she isn't wolves with Proph, and maybe Proph's more likely to be mafia.
I would appreciate your thoughts on Rhand, yeah. Also maybe on Proph, outside of his role, if you could.
I hope your insomnia improves soon, by the way - that sounds rough.
Maybe this was already discussed and I forgot about it, but what utility do you think Axel's role would have as mafia? Also, what are your thoughts on me toDay?
Do you think me and Rhand are w/w? KCC and Rhand? Like, from an interactions perspective.
Also, just out of curiosity, which games of mine did you read?
But if you don't want to do it and people don't trust Axel enough to do it, then I don't think we can send anyone else to test Proph's role, tonight.
So I asked Rhand already, but if anyone else wants to look into that game or was in that game and wants to tell me about it, or even just talk to me about KCC in general, I'm all ears.
Also funny story, I was thinking the game was a PitA earlier on a random theory that this game was multiball. It's unlikely now beccause the first three dead were town, unless the game still has the regular amount of scum just split teams (unlikely)
Wisp: Your offense at my scumread is weird. I don't understand why that's happening. You're not some paragon of towniness.
I'm wondering if it would be more telling for your alignment if I just don't tell you why I'm scumreading you. I might just do that.
@Grape: I'm wondering if Last did stop the kill, but didn't know he would, while scum. If he doesn't know what his abilities do, then his role would certainly fit as scum. Also I wonder what that implies as to the quantity of killing power on the town side.
Keldeo: A sillier read might be that Silver is not scum with Proph because he is the one who claimed to know Proph's ability name.
The premise is "you specifically don't want to lynch KCC because she's your buddy" not that a lynch would have been good.
I meant not w/w btw. In the vernacular of this site, unaligned means not w/w. I'm not sure there's a way to determine whether two people are not v/v.
Vezok: Why is Wisp town? Do you have something more substantial than "he's not like his past scumgames"?
Rhand: No, i mean... now that we know that Nacho is town, how do you feel about KCC pulling off of a person who could be scum to end on someone who is definitvely not. FTR, she spent a lot of the day being the only one on fulcrum, before which she was on the dkings wagon.
Even if your motives are pure... just because you both made the same vote doesn't mean you have the same motives.
Also I look forward to you telling us why your role and his can't both be town hopefully based on something better than role similarity.
Also also, please claim toDay. You're on the chopping block.
thanks for that read
but again I am not trying to be townie through sheer emotions, so I'm taking a step back
and I couldnt have stopped the kill, there is no reason to believe that my first ability extended past day 1, as Grape has pointed out, also I'm starting to agree with others' thoughts on the whole, "tranquilty might just not do anything"
I have never been the best at articulating my thoughts
I would like people to read me on a more macro level, but given that when I am a wolf I tend to slip on a micro level, KCC's thoughts are understandable
but I don't feel like she is putting in the effort to understand me, guess that's karma for not actually reading her based on her posts and rather everything surrounding her soft and claim
I wasn't asking about my townread, though - obviously you would say you're town as any alignment. Was my description of your thought process to KCC on the right track, or were you thinking something different? I'm not a mindreader.
And oh, that makes a lot more sense about "unaligned." I've seen people say "not v/v" to express a feeling that there is a wolf within a pair based on reads or thread feels or something nebulously "slimy" about an interaction, but it's kind of an uncommon read / edge scenario. What do you think are the most likely worlds, re: KCC and Last?
I asked you a question about what you'd solve on the KCC wagon, did you see it?
if he is town, I dont think there are any wolves on his wagon tbh
I'll be pretty busy over the weekend and will not be around as much.
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I think I've said a good amount of this already, stuff seems a bit static and mushy. I haven't really put a lot of effort into sorting my lower reads who aren't viable lynches Today.
Vezok and grapefruit - I think the masons are real. I wish they could be here more. Vezok's claim meant if they were mafia they must have been planning that specific fake mason team from very early on, their thoughts feel genuine, they're independently kinda towny, their conflicting reads/thoughts feel like they don't have an agenda / don't care about appearances.
Dkings and Asta I also believe are town. I am not sure what to make of the fairy telling Asta that he's being protected - if one is mafia I think it is dk. I definitely don't think they're partners, unless dkings is known to fake kind of dramatic "why would mafia ever do this" interactions with his partners? I feel like there's no reason for dk and Asta to make conflicting claims if they are partners. I think Asta is towny because of his tone generally being similar to a past villager game although that's slight, because his role combats the increased majority mechanic, and because I don't see why, if he is mafia and dkings is a villager, he would make this up. I guess I don't see what the motivation is for dkings to make it up if he is mafia, but I think it's possible that his role just doesn't say anything about being loud, and he just wanted to cast doubt on a villager. I am worried by both of them being a bit absent this phase, but I'll take it at face value that they were busy for the holidays.
I think Last is probably town, I just talked about this.
I'm bumping Killjoy up a tier from yesterday. His posting's been a bit sporadic toDay but I think his read on me is genuine, and I'm like, trusting dead villagers who have more meta on him + there's kind of a "thread spew" aspect to this, where it feels like a lot of people were just not considering him. Could say the same about Silver, for that latter part.
I still think Silver is town, as well, but it's less strong. Silver setting up the Proph/KCC dichotomy is not good if they are v/v, but I am not really sure how likely that is.
fulcrum/Axelrod is yet another dichotomy/pairing, I guess. While I thought Axel was posting better d2 than d1, he dropped off a bit Today and didn't post much outside of his action thing, I've been mulling over my thoughts about him, and it's just like. I feel like the core of why I'd take him out of my POE is his role. I didn't think he's lying about most of it and I'm not 100% sure of the use for scum, and it seems to make sense with town's seemingly limited investigative power. But fulcrum apparently disagrees based on her role, and at some point I want fulcrum to be less cryptic about that because I don't really see the similarity or why they can't necessarily coexist as town, as they are claimed. I am still getting kind of "off" vibes about how Fulcrum has treated certain things, but maybe that is just her?? I think her trying to break Proph's ability along with Vaimes' was kind of towny. I've agreed with some of the small things she's noted, like about the masons disagreeing.
I just talked about KCC, too. Her answering me about her Nacho progression earlier today was another thing that felt fluid to me. Her consideration of people pushing her since day 1 has felt a bit more... shallow, maybe? than I would expect? I don't think I'm phrasing this very well.
Rhand - honestly right now I just want to see his claim. A lot of what he says just feels reasonable, but that doesn't make him town or mafia. Intertwined with Rhand's claim is Vaimes, and I kind of want to be lazy and sheep other people and say that Vaimes is town for now, and evaluate more after Rhand claims. I probably also need to reread the early Rhand/Killjoy stuff because if I go in thinking Killjoy is town instead of not being sure, maybe I can get something out of that. Not sure if I have time for this.
Without that info for now, I still want to lynch Proph today, if we can't try to confirm his role. I know it was the holidays, but I just have not been wowed by his content or his actions. I feel like even if Silver is town and Proph picked up on the "color of spring" thing, he still might have been able to lie, if the spring ability is vague enough.
The thing is that within like, Proph/Rhand/KCC/fulcrum/Axel I've come up with enough not-partners reads that it's hard to find a coherent team, so I'm probably wrong with how I'm expecting the team to interact, or I'm just wrong somewhere higher - but I don't know where. I'll probably have to bite the bullet and do a deep dive/reassessment eventually, but for now I'm going to sleep.
I am Hades, town corpse mimic.
I am basically the backup.
Each night I can target a seasonal ability of a dead player. I get the ability and it changes to the current season.
I had no target N1 and N2.
I can take one of tom’s seasonals toNight.
I don’t believe there’s 2 roles in town that take abilities from people. That would make this setup extremely swingy. Ergo, I don’t think Vaimes can be town.
@Vaimes: Something I suddenly wonder about: when you have done an exchange, will that influence the wording of the flip?
The reason I didn’t want to claim is that I could have potentially stopped the NK with tom’s jailer ability.
Also we should consider asking for an extension since the holidays were so hectic for everyone.
@Rhand: are you saying when you take an ability, the ability changes seasons, or the game season changes to match the ability?
I need to look at what Vaimes does again.