@Vez: I'll do those quotes soon. Currently eating. But talk to me about Cantrip's ISO post of me.
Cantrip: Talk to me about Vez's ISO post of me.
I'm not sure if the scum is Vez who keeps coming back to a townread on me or Cantrip who seems to have completely flipped his position on me (Suddenly he's seeing a bunch of scumminess in my posts) and is appealing to emotion.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Vez: I'll do those quotes soon. Currently eating. But talk to me about Cantrip's ISO post of me.
Cantrip: Talk to me about Vez's ISO post of me.
I'm not sure if the scum is Vez who keeps coming back to a townread on me or Cantrip who seems to have completely flipped his position on me (Suddenly he's seeing a bunch of scumminess in my posts) and is appealing to emotion.
I'll talk about Vez's ISO post below, but you can't possibly be surprised at me finding scummy stuff on you. There's no way I'd be able to sleep at night if I just came in here and voted Vez because I had felt like you were really town all game. My paranoia, at minimum, demands I look at both of you (both of whom I'd pushed as very likely town right up until I was faced with one of you having to be scum) with as much scrutiny as I can muster. I still found posts from you that I don't feel like would naturally come from scum.
As for the emotion...I'm feeling pretty emotional about this. I haven't been mislunched in the last 14 games I was town, and I sure as hell don't want to be the game-losing mislunch.
But is it really Vaimsing if you include content/don't highlight that you're swiping the post?
Vez's ISO Of You:
It feels a little light on content in general, but a) I realize not everyone shares my love of wall-vomit, and b) even I ran out of steam near the end of your ISO, so...
A lot of the early comments are hedgy: "RVS vote is weird, but reaction to being questioned is solid", "could be interactions or just noting stuff", "feels a bit like coaching, but can also come from town trying to solve", but then she starts taking more solid stances, which I could maybe see being more likely from town confbiasing you as town as she rolls along.
She quoted your 457 and said "This feels like positioning for a Rhand town read" like that was scummy, but then went on to quote you doing just that and towns you for it (but there's obviously more to that progression than just whether or not you did indeed town Rhand).
I agree with many of her comments, but I'm not sure I believe that she believes "The fact that KJ switched to defending KCC and trying to get last lynched later speaks to this being a genuine read at that moment more than faking a townread on a scumbuddy." That comment seems to ignore any possible context of what was going on when you started defending KCC and trying to get Wisp lunched in assessing whether the read of yours she quoted (860) was genuine or not.
Her point on 1099 is mostly a good one. KCC hadn't cc'd yet, but D2 had started with KCC calling Wisp out, Vaimes voting Rhand but also wanting Wisp to claim, Emiko also calling for a Wisp claim, and Wisp had declined to claim + made that bad attack on Vaimes, so it's not that much of a stretch for me to see scum!you wanting to get some distancing in. I think in balance, your attack is more likely to come from town than a buddy there, but Vez again doesn't seem to be taking context into consideration when coming to conclusions.
I already mentioned that I feel almost the opposite about 1550 as Vez does, but if Vez is town, then I could see her hyperfocusing on you putting Chris in your list rather than leaving Vez in (I feel like scum!you could put Chris in as a "distant 5th" just to be on record as having suspected him, knowing you could always come back around to finding something to scumread Vez for later). It's far from "the worst path imaginable" for scum!you to take, though.
Finally her conclusion feels a little weird in that she says she "hoped I'd find more in my reread to point to KJ being town", which feels like she's expressing disappointment that she didn't find more, but then says "his read progression is pretty solid", which, to me, would be finding something that pointed to you being town.
I'm hoping you'll respond to some of my questions (and Vez's) after you're done eating?
I think I want to take another run at Shadow/Wisp/Rhand/Chris posts to look at big picture treatments of both of you.
First though, you're right Cantrip. You did not actually Vaimes 1800. Lets define it! (I've been meaning to do this before the game ends)
Vaimes
/ˈVay-mz/
verb
1. The act of creating and playing a game where there wasn't one before (but could be), usually involving competing in otherwise arbitrary ways. This game usually starts by one player declaring they've scored.
1a. A game within a game.
Examples of games including Vaimesing: Snag That Milestone Post!, Punchbuggy, License Plate Bingo.
"PUNCHBUGGY!
Damn , you beat me there.
Yup! Vaimes'd it!"
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You spend a moment or two in front of the toilet mirror, trying to cool down and preparing yourself mentally for what's to come soon. You take few deep breaths and start heading towards the stage.
Not Voting (3): vezokpiraka, Cantripmancer, Killjoy
V/LA: -
With 3 alive, it’s 2 to lynch. Deadline is on November 7th 21.59 GMT.
So lets start with the elephant in the room: My Rhand read was just wrong. I've played a lot of games with him, and I started seeing a pattern in his games. There's a certain... innocence to his towngame that's just not there in his scumgame. The way he approaches the game when he's town involves a lot of trying to understand what's going on. That's not his fault though, some of it is the language barrier. I feel like it takes him slightly longer to get a handle on things than most. He also gets tripped up on certain things... like, for instance, this game, Last's claim.
Vezok is my night 0 blue check, dont really care why he is voting me
Is this for real?
Was that shot a choice?
unvote
Forgot to add that to my reread post.
@Vaimes: if what I wrote in my reread isn’t good enough for you, then bring it on I guess?
Why the threat?
This is exactly the type of post he makes as town. Someone does something weird, he goes insane, like Jack Skellington in Chrismasland.
I believe I also cited 549 as a townRhand post. With that, I felt the progression on each of the reads he stated was genuine. He was consistent throughout that I saw. I also attribute such stream of thought postings as generally being townRhand.
This read was ultimately wrong because:
I failed to realize that maybe him not knowing something (like Last's claim) could be anything but him just being town and not knowing which way is up.
I didn't respect his scumgame enough.
I dismissed that thought in the back of my head that realized he didn't really question my read on him. (This is probably my biggest failing here)
I thought I had a towntell of his that he was not aware of (and therefore could not fake/would not do as scum) so I dismissed it.
TBH I kind of stopped reading him after I decided he was town. I "knew" he was town so why waste time solving someone who didn't need solving?
I think I kind of wanted a shortcut to reading him... because his townrange and his scumrange overlap a lot for me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cantrip: I don't care that you're noticing scummy things about me Cantrip, I care that you've been saying all game I'm town but now I'm suddenly your top suspect.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So lets start with the elephant in the room: My Rhand read was just wrong. I've played a lot of games with him, and I started seeing a pattern in his games. There's a certain... innocence to his towngame that's just not there in his scumgame. The way he approaches the game when he's town involves a lot of trying to understand what's going on. That's not his fault though, some of it is the language barrier. I feel like it takes him slightly longer to get a handle on things than most. He also gets tripped up on certain things... like, for instance, this game, Last's claim.
Why do you feel like your read on Rhand is "the elephant in the room"? Vez towned Wisp all the way up until the flip, and I ignored Rhand for most the game. All of us have things that are obviously questionable. But yours is an elephant?
Quote from Killjoy »
TBH I kind of stopped reading him after I decided he was town. I "knew" he was town so why waste time solving someone who didn't need solving?
This is pretty close to how I treated you most the game. I saw a lot of what felt like pure posting and just...wrote you off as likely town.
@Cantrip: I don't care that you're noticing scummy things about me Cantrip, I care that you've been saying all game I'm town but now I'm suddenly your top suspect.
...you're my top suspect? Where did I say that? There are some very complex reasons I think each of you are town, so right now I'm trying to figure out which set of reasons is less likely to be accurate/which of you are strongly likely to be scum.
As for unanswered questions:
• You provided one post of Rhand's other than the one Vez highlighted when he asked you for posts you liked; are there any other posts/why did you like them?
• In 1799, I asked you about...
• Why you were trying to figure Tom's alignment off of the likelihood of Rhand being scum in the same post that you supertowned Rhand?
• What conclusion you were intimating in 1068.
I really liked KJ's Tom/Silver unalignment (explained further in later posts). I'm sure there's scum motivation to bust up that town catfight, but most scum would be content to let town slap it out.
He calls them not both scum. Busting up the fight would imply some sort of convincing tom and silver to stop or at least calling them both town. But I agree that scum would rather let it play out.
I get a slight "mediator"/"conductor" vibe from some of KJ's posts. Like in 357 where he unvotes Rhand, then asks Rhand a question, then hedges on a Tom read (but says he'll look into it), then pushes Tom to look at KCC, then asks KCC about her Vez read, then asks Vez about KCC as well. That said, his responses to Silver in that post feel very natural, and at the end of the post when I tinfoil scum!Silver/scum!Tom theatre, KJ dismisses it pretty quickly and completely, which doesn't feel like a choice scum makes.
KJ is rather vague on why he likes Rhand's post, just saying that it has none of the things KJ associates with scum!Rhand and some things that seem town!Rhand (without going into any detail). Hmm, in 886 he tells Megs that he's not going into detail on purpose so that he can later catch Rhand as scum. Oh, he eventually goes into detail in 1664, but that's after Rhandslot flipped scum.
That is certainly how stuff happened. I don't think scum KJ townreads a buddy for such vague reasons. This is too wolfy to be a wolf territory and I believe the story he peddled.
Something to keep in mind vis a vis the n0 peek was that the last (possibly only?) game it was in here on MTGS was by the same mod.
tom: Why does scum!Last fakeclaim immediately after the end of Modern given what happened?
This could be inside info, but just as easily could be KJ happening to make that connection. The last line is the kind of argument that I'd expect Wisp's buddies to push, but I also pushed it, lol.
I also played in that game and knew about Bur's role. I assume other people knew and it feels like KJ being helpful more than him coordinating with buddies.
Not sure about the Modern claim connection. Seems pretty NAI seeing as how both of you did it and one of you is town. Cantrip is probably being cheeky here.
I'd say based on his posts, Last is slightly more likely town than scum. Even if we forget the claim debacle in Modern, there's a real engagement in his posts that aren't usually there as scum. I will not help you lynch Last today.
Now that Rhand has posted some more, I can say this for sure: Rhand is town. I started having a few doubts because he started getting snipey, but then he posted some more and I can say for (mostly) sure that this is pure town Rhand.
Also, I was thinknig about it at work: Rhand/Tom are likely unaligned for 633:
Dont think the rhand wagon is too fast or spewy or whatever. First 3 votes are clearly town to me, and vez/megs are possible scum that im not seeing as unaligned with him anyway
This is a weird position to take on a scumbuddy. Letting people think that the wagon speed pushes him in the town direction would be playing to his wincon if they were buddies, and letting him hang here doesn't make tom look good so there's no reason for him to do it if they're buddies.
That said, Last was the one who declared the wagon fast enough to make Rhand town be likely. And last pushes it a little. So there's some scum equity for the two of them... but for that to be true I'd have to be wrong on both of them. I'm putting it in my notes nonetheless.
I initially liked the Tom/Rhand unalignment here, but... KJ, why do you "supertown" Rhand here, then try to suss Tom's alignment from how Tom would treat Rhand if they were buddies?
This is one of the posts that I have a hard time believing comes from scum. KJ's scumreading Tom and Silver posts an unofficial votecount and naked votes Tom and KJ questions Silver.
I've noticed several drops of "I've done this before". Current one is at the end of 935, but I know there were others. Could be an attempt to reinforce the feeling of "this is normal (town) KJ".
I think this is a bit reachy. I see the point, but pairs of unalignments are different than reads on individuals.
Another example of a conductor post, using Vez's read on Megiddo in conjunction with Megiddo's self-meta to involve both in a conversation. But that could probably come from town, as well, wanting to get reads (vs. stirring the pot).
[quote from="Killjoy »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/814379-eurovision-mafia-day-5-no-love?comment=1068"]Id just like to point out that that KK and Cantrip (at the 11th hour) somehow found more support than the Meg wagon despite the fact that it's been kinda holding on all Day. That is a thing that could be relevant.
KJ, what conclusion were you coming to with this observation?
1209. KJ highlights my D1 suspicion of Megiddo for being a counterwagon and asks if I think Rhand could be scum instead of Megs, which doesn't really feel like a buddy move. Comments to Emiko about the Wisp/Vez relationship could be trying to get Emiko thinking Vez is scum, but the questions there don't feel manipulative, just inquisitive.
KJ says I wasn't a Rhand/Meg counterwagon, just a CFD, and asks me who the scum on my wagon were. Which is pretty savvy if KJ knows that my wagon was all-town.
Actually, I sorta get the impression of KJ waiting to spring a trap in 1225 and 1239. Like he's trying to build associations between me and Rhand.
I don't think KJ ever doubts KCC after her claim? Which feels slightly less likely to come from town than from scum.
I probably should have kept track of the number of times KJ towned Wisp/Rhand and/or pushed away from them. It happens a lot.
I'll try to find it over night and hope I'm alive enough to post it.
Scum very likely just all in [Cantrip, Last, Meg, Vaimes, with Chris a distant 5th]
This post does the opposite for me that it seems to do for Vez: there's no progression I can see between KJ thinking Rhand is town and here. There are a few posts where he says one of Megiddo or Rhand is probably scum, but then he pushes Megiddo all over the place. In fact, his very next post has KJ asking people to summarize why Rhandslot is scum. Several mentions of wanting to let Chris talk before he gets lunched.
I kinda got bored, but I don't really have much to say here except about the distant 5th part. Just mentioning a buddy as a lycnh candidate who you previously suspiciously townread isn;t the best place to be. You draw attention to him when you probably don't want to.
The last part of the post is just an appeal to emotion.
I'm Domenico Modugno - Nel Blue Dipinto Di Blu maybe better known as Volare. Also a vanilla townie.
I'm certainly leaning heavily on Cantrip at the moment, will see what you post while I'm asleep and decide on a vote when I wake up.
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you can probably lynch me in a couple day phases if I dont radiate towniness
LMAOOO I am DUMB, I thought Meg posted this.
Also why would any villager claiming a PR ever say this.
Vaimes posted this literally 3 posts before 784 that is a reason and pretty self explanatory. I think it comes from scum Cantrip scanning the thread for his buddies names and missing that a post relates to them just through a quote.
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Vez, if you're town, do us both a favor and step outside the tunnel for at least five minutes. Yes, I know you can't trust this, but do it anyway. And I'm still looking through things, so please don't vote yet. I don't want to hold the game hostage, but I'd really like as much time as possible.
@Cantrip: I felt my blatant reasonless townread on a flipped scum that did not change at all while he was alive needed explanation. It was, I think, the worst read on a scum this game by anyone.
You never said that I was your top suspect. I gathered it from context. Read your posts today and tell me where I came to that conclusion.
RE: Rhand: I stopped reading his posts really early. Aside from the posts I mentioned, all the others I pretty much just ignored after that point, as I said.
What post are you referring to with figuring tom and supertowning Rhand?
The point was that Meg was scum, and scum wanted to lynch people who weren't him (you and KK)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vez: There's a tingle in the back of my head that wonders if you're just slowrolling waiting for me and Cantrip to jump on each other.
Why is Cantrip scum?
Cantrip: Who is scum and why is the other not scum?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cantrip: You know, if you're town and don't want to be the final mislynch, help me see scum!Vez. Because on this episode of Why Vez Probably Isn't Scum With The Flipped Scum:
Regarding last: I might have misunderstood his posts, because I thought he was just being sarcastic saying he won't claim because he already did.
Now I see that he was just being a smartass. My opinion of him has dropped somewhat, but I still think he is probably town. I think that last gets way too emotional in mafia games and starts doing weird stuff that antagonizes the other players and is not really conductive to good analysis.
Why post this here and not in the Daychat? This feels weird to post about a buddy.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I will give Cantrip 9 and a bit hours from this post to post whatever he still wants to post and then I will vote. I have stuff to do today and do not have time for big reviews. I wanted to finish yesterday, but I didn't because Cantrip asked for.more time.
I am not going to answer such question at the end of the game for KJ. I think I've been pretty clear about why I think Cantrip is scum.
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cantrip: I felt my blatant reasonless townread on a flipped scum that did not change at all while he was alive needed explanation. It was, I think, the worst read on a scum this game by anyone.
Did Vez ever voice serious suspicion of Wisp? And I flip-flopped so many times between Wisp and KCC it was ridiculous.
Quote from Killjoy »
You never said that I was your top suspect. I gathered it from context. Read your posts today and tell me where I came to that conclusion.
You assumed it from context. I've been in 50-50 agony ever since Day started.
Quote from Killjoy »
What post are you referring to with figuring tom and supertowning Rhand?
@Cantrip: You know, if you're town and don't want to be the final mislynch, help me see scum!Vez. Because on this episode of Why Vez Probably Isn't Scum With The Flipped Scum:
Regarding last: I might have misunderstood his posts, because I thought he was just being sarcastic saying he won't claim because he already did.
Now I see that he was just being a smartass. My opinion of him has dropped somewhat, but I still think he is probably town. I think that last gets way too emotional in mafia games and starts doing weird stuff that antagonizes the other players and is not really conductive to good analysis.
Why post this here and not in the Daychat? This feels weird to post about a buddy.
You know, you keep finding these posts and I find myself nodding along with them, but if you're right, then you're scum. Which would explain why you are posting them with such conviction. You already know that Vez is strongly likely to vote for me, so every post of his that you highlight as "probably coming from town" puts me on the spot to either explain it away or agree with you, and regardless, you're grooming Vez, reinforcing his mentality that you are right and town and I am scum.
Cantrip: Can you talk to me about your read on last from approx where you first voted him to the end of the day? Walk me through your thought process.
I voted him for his bad NK ponderings, then I saw a post of Rhand's that pushed Emiko as scum. I had Emiko as town, so I followed up on it to see if there was any truth to it, didn't read thoroughly enough, fell for Rhand's red herring, and voted Emiko. When I realized my mistake, I didn't re-vote Wisp because I thought he was at L-2, and the rest of the Day was spent trying to sort Wisp and KCC, with several sad flip-flops along the way.
So here's where I'm at, and it sucks.
Vez
+ Scum!Wisp peeking a buddy with zero knowledge of what town PRs might exist feels borderline suicidal. If Vez gets killed before Wisp, Wisp is outed.
+ That post that Vez made towning me right when scum could have moved in for the kill without attracting attention.
- Towning Wisp until Wisp's flip.
- No indication of ever really considering town!KCC to be a possibility until Wisp's flip.
- Low game involvement.
Killjoy
+ Generally good posting, especially felt pure D1 and D2.
+ Feels like he's scumhunting.
- Towned both dead scum many times, and maintained a town read on Rhand.
- Lack of any questioning of KCC's alignment after her claim.
- Confidence in Vez reads are borderline overconfident/TMI.
- Feelings of him being manipulative.
So on the one hand, I want to vote Vez because I would hate to reward what I feel is borderline bad scum play, but if it convinced everyone that Vez was town, then it wasn't bad, just a ballsy choice. I also want to vote Vez because I feel like Killjoy has played a better game in general, so I'd like to reward that, even if I get mislunched and KJ and I lose.
On the other hand, something is very much feeling off about Killjoy. The posts yesterday highlighting things that went along with my gamestate view at the time and asking me what I thought of them. Highlighting multiple Vez posts to me and talking about how town they are. His general heightened self-awareness toDay. EWP: And this latest question about 1338. Really, KJ? You didn't see anything that would have that effect? I had a whole paragraph in that post where I reassess how likely it is that scum!Wisp fake peeks Vez. I feel like you're just itching for Vez to vote me so you can finish me off.
I also see Vez's ultimatum regarding 9.5 hours from now, and I'm about to go to bed then get up and go to work, so I guess this is my last hurrah.
This sucks.
Vote Killjoy
Vez, If you're town, I don't really expect the above to be persuasive, especially since you're tunneling me. If you're willing to leave the tunnel for just a little bit, before you vote, will you please take a look at the questions I asked Wisp D2? I feel like I highlighted multiple discrepancies in his mindset that no one else had, putting pressure on him in ways that wouldn't come from a buddy.
I've been thinking a lot during the night about Cantrip. His stance before night was extremely weird and now with his post today it feels like he changed his mind on mislynching me and instead wants to focus on KJ and meg. It feels like scum testing the waters to see what he can mislynch.
Why was my stance before night "extremely weird"?
And as for trying to see what I can mislunch...Megiddo already said I had a convincing case against you, despite my conclusion. And I'm really mostly town reading you on one (rather strong) stance you took that I don't think scum!you would ever choose to take. And apparently that's not as convincing to others as it is to me. So...if I were looking for mislunches, voluntarily taking you out of the mix wouldn't be a very smart move. Yes, I could just be banking on being able to get Megiddo + KJ mislunched for the win, but I've already been pretty vocal about thinking KJ's town, so if I'm scum and Megiddo flips town, I'm going to have to "reassess" someone, which is a lot harder than just leaving my supposed perspective at "KJ likely town, let's lunch Megiddo and Vez".
Can't go into details right now, but the fact that you signaled me out yesterday before night practically putting me on everyone's mind and then coming here today with pretty strong accussations of scumminess even if your final read on me was town makes it seem like you are teying to push me as a mislynch without committing to you so you can end game with meg and push him.
The post also seems eerily familiar to what Axelrod did at the end of Modern mafia where he explored every possibility for my and last's actions coming from town or scum. Thing is Axelrod was already confirmed town by then. Your posts feel like trying to imitate that, but instead of pushing discourse on all thr players you are heavily focusing on me.
I don't even think you believe that just a single post where I called town for a reasonable progression at that time is enough to sway your opinion of me when there's so much stacked against me. Me moving from Rhand in a critical time for that wagon is scummy. Me defending last and focusing on KCC is scummy. These are heavy things and a single post where I changed my mind on someone shouldn"t be enough to discourage a scumread on me.
So yeah, practically I just think you are full of ***** and trying to push mislynches without trying to invest in them.
vote cantrip
Ok I think I found it.
@Cantrip: *shakes head* I'll get to your questions in a second.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vez, also note that while Killjoy's finding plenty of things that could be town from you, he hasn't highlighted a single post of mine that even "could" have come from town. He's not actually trying to figure out who's scum and who's town; he's "finding" all your town posts and conveniently neglecting to think about mine.
@Vez: If you're scum can you come in and hammer me quickly so I don't have to worry about it anymore? Of if you're not, come in and say that you're not gonna hammer me so I can not have to finish this monster post?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You really only post walla, Cantrip. I don't like quoting walls. In my post I ahve post numbers and such on those posts.
I don't care if you don't like quoting walls. Point to a single post you've made toDay that has even briefly entertained the possibility of a post that comes from town!me, even if you just referenced it by post number. You are exhibiting ZERO uncertainty: all the posts you find on Vez are "would be really weird to come from a scumbuddy", and all the posts of mine that you highlight are for purposes of questioning me.
I highlight those posts because they're... weird if she's scum with them. I'm not sure she's not scum with them, those are just pointers to Vez being town.
I haven't seen a post by you that jumps out at me as specifically unlikely to be posted as scum with them.
I'll tell you what though, Cantrip. I won't cross vote you right now. I'll vote when I get up, so if you happen to be town Vez has to lynch me instead of you so you can maintain your streak.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cantrip: Re: Suspicion of Shadow She voiced some suspicion of Shadow, but then she unvotes in favor of KK. She had a little on Last, but also had decent progression on KCC.
Re: Assumed it from context: All you've done today is try to prove me scum. In your VCA, you give vez townpoints and say things like you don't like my vote because it didn't solve the cops despite you wanting to do the exact same thing. (Just after the IF KCC is scum, a couple paragraphs down... "Vaimes suggestion") and also
Like...you're finding townie things about the player I find most townie, and scummy things about the player I find most suspicious, and then asking me (and Meg and Vaimes re: Vez, and (presumably) Vaimes and Vez re: Meg) what I think about them. How do you expect me (specifically) to respond to these posts?
I know I frequently let my paranoia have too much rein, but...???
where "the person I find most townie" refers to Vez. Also you've never said a bad word about Vez since Day started, save for a few in your response to her ISO on me, and you don't really seem to even deliberate those.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vezok->RhandChris
762- Attacks KK for jumping on Rhand for stalling when there was no reason to.
861- Megs scum because of clawing for Rhand wagon
1317- Will lynch Rhand is necessary (wants to wait for replacement)
1534- Wants to look at Chris after last regardless of Last’s flip.
1572- Immediately votes Chris without fighting at all.
Vezok->ShadowLast
64- RVS on shadow “for being a wolf”
271- Tonguewags for saying “I’m having thoughts” instead of either posting the thoughts or just not saying anything.
380- Aggressive vote in response to 356. Says in the whole post that KK is scum, but ends up voting Shadow because shadow’s vote is bad.
440- Shadow can wait. Immediate next post after 380.
445- Thinks there’s one scum between shadow and KK.
666- Why would last fake this?
1259- Thought LAst was being sarcastic, instead was being a smartass. Opinion dropped.
1273- Says it’s sketchy that KCC didn’t check last because it would confirm two people.
1417- Really wants KCC over last.
1487- Votes KCC, but isn’t really pushing it too hard.
ShadowLast->Vezok
444- Asks how likely KK and he are aligned.
585- turns Vezok’s vote on him to justify suspicion on Vaimes.
RhandChris->Vezok
549- Says Vezok’s entrance 64 without weighing in on anything is bad. States 145 is low impact and bothersome. Vezok spots bad KK post, gaining townpoints.
572- Chainsaws Vezok reminding Vaimes that Last had a townpeek on her.
603- Says Last has to be scum for Vezok to be scum.
1435- KCC/Last/Vezok not all scum.
Cantrip->RhandChris
798- Rhand wagon speed is +town for him, but he’ll consider that people are saying that the wagon speed isn’t indicative.
914- Asks Rhand to explain why if tom is scum, LW is scum after I answer.
1160- Asks Rhand why he’s not touching Meg with a 10 foot pole.
1502- Working on a Rhand ISO, haven’t finished it yet.
Cantrip->ShadowLast
137- Agrees with shadow that Emiko is town
345- Agrees that day should not be about silver/tom, presses for info about silver/tom. Shadow continues to ignore.
798- Wisp going after Rhand wagon naked votes is +town for Wisp. Also fencesitty on what claim means for Wisp alignment.
1160- Votes Wisp for wine of “why he wasn’t shot”
1175- Still wants to know why Wisp made that wine post, but would rather be voting Emiko following an impromptu review of him.
1176- Why is Vez unlikely scum with Wisp, Vaimes?
1299- Provides decent scum reasons for Last, doesn’t revote still..
1306- Makes a whole post about KCC, kinda feels like he wants to believe last but can’t seem to find a reason. Beleives we should take Vaime’s suggestion and save the cops for later.
1307- Gives reason why he still thinks Last is scummy.
1432- Thinks Last is scummier, but always thinks last is scum. Doesn’t think Last comes into the game and fakes N0 peek on a buddy (or at all, because Modern). Option 1 doesn’t take into account one being scum, only the not-so-badness if we lynch town.Leans toward Option 1, wants to decide which way to go based on who gets confirmed.
1481- If we were right up against deadline, I’d vote Wisp.
1502- More good reasons for Last to be scum, still no voting.
1507- Why so stingy with your vote, Last?
1510- MORE reasons why last is scum, still no vote.
1527-Still feels like lynching Wisp is something he doesn’t wanna do.
ShadowLast->Cantrip
404- if Tom and silver are scum together, and have daychat (which they’d have to for your hypothetical planned thunderdome), then no, just no. There is no way they elect to make a significant portion of this day focused on being at each other’s throats like that. I know it’s a tinfoil, but I don’t think you should entertain it.
1326-
RhandChris->Cantrip
549- States Cantrip agrees with Shadow about “not exactly one” being townie from Emiko.
806- Says Cantrip might be the scum off his wagon, but not much to go on there.
866- Cantrip or Emiko might be good third scum candidate.
976- “there is a post where I answered why tom can’t be scum without LW.
1016- I’m gonna ISO Cantrip. No time to finish reading.
1022- “There was something [in his ISO] that made me think if he’s scum, it’s with megs or Vezok.
1113- “The only thing that gives me a bit of pause in my current worldview is a post by Cantrip where he says “If you or Meg flips scum, >rand chance the two of you are buddies.” to Vezok.
When scum posts something like this, there is generally a buddy involved, which wouldn’t be true in a Vaimes / Cantrip / Emiko world.”
1435- Two scum in Cantrip/me/Emiko/Meg. This feels more like if we get Cantrip first, he would push for a second.
Other Notable Posts:
Shadow never responds to 271 from Vez.
540- If Cantrip is scum, Osie called the team + me
605- Vezok: Shadow’s vote joining a wagon with her makes much more sense since he knew she was town, also vote otherbuddy Rhand.
1177- Vaimes, about why Vez isn’t scum with Last: “Because LW claiming an innocent on a buddy and then both of them doing literally nothing is not really stellar scum play.
"It feels like scum trying to get as many claims as possible, but without much commitment." But you also think that she could be buddies with LW? What exactly is the strategy behind fakeclaiming a cop check and having your buddy doubt your claim for no concrete reason?”
1189- Osie calls scumteam.
1338- Cantrip reviews posts from Shadow looking for an indication he actually had the peek. Apperently the lack of lack of Shadow doing anything muddied the scumread on that slot?
1514- Cantrip questions vezok on why she’s not doing more to figure out KCC.
1630- Why am I null there? He’s been townreading me all game.
Part of my analysis was gonna say how Vezok looked worse from interactions. I was asking for an extension too but that wasn't needed I guess.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Wisp replaces in and claimed the peek without deliberation in scum chat. We just rolled with it. I was scared I'd just screw myself at the end, but it worked out better than expected. I really tried to put work into the last two game days.
It didn't really help my motivation when my last buddy replaced out and Sir Chris simply didn't post anything. I'm glad I could carry it to the end.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cantrip: Talk to me about Vez's ISO post of me.
I'm not sure if the scum is Vez who keeps coming back to a townread on me or Cantrip who seems to have completely flipped his position on me (Suddenly he's seeing a bunch of scumminess in my posts) and is appealing to emotion.
As for the emotion...I'm feeling pretty emotional about this. I haven't been mislunched in the last 14 games I was town, and I sure as hell don't want to be the game-losing mislunch.
But is it really Vaimsing if you include content/don't highlight that you're swiping the post?
Vez's ISO Of You:
It feels a little light on content in general, but a) I realize not everyone shares my love of wall-vomit, and b) even I ran out of steam near the end of your ISO, so...
A lot of the early comments are hedgy: "RVS vote is weird, but reaction to being questioned is solid", "could be interactions or just noting stuff", "feels a bit like coaching, but can also come from town trying to solve", but then she starts taking more solid stances, which I could maybe see being more likely from town confbiasing you as town as she rolls along.
She quoted your 457 and said "This feels like positioning for a Rhand town read" like that was scummy, but then went on to quote you doing just that and towns you for it (but there's obviously more to that progression than just whether or not you did indeed town Rhand).
I agree with many of her comments, but I'm not sure I believe that she believes "The fact that KJ switched to defending KCC and trying to get last lynched later speaks to this being a genuine read at that moment more than faking a townread on a scumbuddy." That comment seems to ignore any possible context of what was going on when you started defending KCC and trying to get Wisp lunched in assessing whether the read of yours she quoted (860) was genuine or not.
Her point on 1099 is mostly a good one. KCC hadn't cc'd yet, but D2 had started with KCC calling Wisp out, Vaimes voting Rhand but also wanting Wisp to claim, Emiko also calling for a Wisp claim, and Wisp had declined to claim + made that bad attack on Vaimes, so it's not that much of a stretch for me to see scum!you wanting to get some distancing in. I think in balance, your attack is more likely to come from town than a buddy there, but Vez again doesn't seem to be taking context into consideration when coming to conclusions.
I already mentioned that I feel almost the opposite about 1550 as Vez does, but if Vez is town, then I could see her hyperfocusing on you putting Chris in your list rather than leaving Vez in (I feel like scum!you could put Chris in as a "distant 5th" just to be on record as having suspected him, knowing you could always come back around to finding something to scumread Vez for later). It's far from "the worst path imaginable" for scum!you to take, though.
Finally her conclusion feels a little weird in that she says she "hoped I'd find more in my reread to point to KJ being town", which feels like she's expressing disappointment that she didn't find more, but then says "his read progression is pretty solid", which, to me, would be finding something that pointed to you being town.
I'm hoping you'll respond to some of my questions (and Vez's) after you're done eating?
I think I want to take another run at Shadow/Wisp/Rhand/Chris posts to look at big picture treatments of both of you.
First though, you're right Cantrip. You did not actually Vaimes 1800. Lets define it! (I've been meaning to do this before the game ends)
Vaimes
/ˈVay-mz/
verb
1. The act of creating and playing a game where there wasn't one before (but could be), usually involving competing in otherwise arbitrary ways. This game usually starts by one player declaring they've scored.
1a. A game within a game.
Examples of games including Vaimesing: Snag That Milestone Post!, Punchbuggy, License Plate Bingo.
"PUNCHBUGGY!
Damn , you beat me there.
Yup! Vaimes'd it!"
You spend a moment or two in front of the toilet mirror, trying to cool down and preparing yourself mentally for what's to come soon. You take few deep breaths and start heading towards the stage.
Not Voting (3): vezokpiraka, Cantripmancer, Killjoy
V/LA: -
With 3 alive, it’s 2 to lynch. Deadline is on November 7th 21.59 GMT.
This is exactly the type of post he makes as town. Someone does something weird, he goes insane, like Jack Skellington in Chrismasland.
I believe I also cited 549 as a townRhand post. With that, I felt the progression on each of the reads he stated was genuine. He was consistent throughout that I saw. I also attribute such stream of thought postings as generally being townRhand.
This read was ultimately wrong because:
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This is pretty close to how I treated you most the game. I saw a lot of what felt like pure posting and just...wrote you off as likely town.
...you're my top suspect? Where did I say that? There are some very complex reasons I think each of you are town, so right now I'm trying to figure out which set of reasons is less likely to be accurate/which of you are strongly likely to be scum.
As for unanswered questions:
• You provided one post of Rhand's other than the one Vez highlighted when he asked you for posts you liked; are there any other posts/why did you like them?
• In 1799, I asked you about...
• Why you were trying to figure Tom's alignment off of the likelihood of Rhand being scum in the same post that you supertowned Rhand?
• What conclusion you were intimating in 1068.
He calls them not both scum. Busting up the fight would imply some sort of convincing tom and silver to stop or at least calling them both town. But I agree that scum would rather let it play out.
Agree with all this.
That is certainly how stuff happened. I don't think scum KJ townreads a buddy for such vague reasons. This is too wolfy to be a wolf territory and I believe the story he peddled.
I also played in that game and knew about Bur's role. I assume other people knew and it feels like KJ being helpful more than him coordinating with buddies.
Not sure about the Modern claim connection. Seems pretty NAI seeing as how both of you did it and one of you is town. Cantrip is probably being cheeky here.
I think this is a bit reachy. I see the point, but pairs of unalignments are different than reads on individuals.
I kinda got bored, but I don't really have much to say here except about the distant 5th part. Just mentioning a buddy as a lycnh candidate who you previously suspiciously townread isn;t the best place to be. You draw attention to him when you probably don't want to.
The last part of the post is just an appeal to emotion.
I'm Domenico Modugno - Nel Blue Dipinto Di Blu maybe better known as Volare. Also a vanilla townie.
I'm certainly leaning heavily on Cantrip at the moment, will see what you post while I'm asleep and decide on a vote when I wake up.
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While looking through more Cantrip posts I found this.
Vaimes posted this literally 3 posts before 784 that is a reason and pretty self explanatory. I think it comes from scum Cantrip scanning the thread for his buddies names and missing that a post relates to them just through a quote.
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You never said that I was your top suspect. I gathered it from context. Read your posts today and tell me where I came to that conclusion.
RE: Rhand: I stopped reading his posts really early. Aside from the posts I mentioned, all the others I pretty much just ignored after that point, as I said.
What post are you referring to with figuring tom and supertowning Rhand?
The point was that Meg was scum, and scum wanted to lynch people who weren't him (you and KK)
Why is Cantrip scum?
Cantrip: Who is scum and why is the other not scum?
I am not going to answer such question at the end of the game for KJ. I think I've been pretty clear about why I think Cantrip is scum.
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I'll just go ISO you if you don't. Now isn't the time to be cagey. Leaving me with less doubt is good for my paranoia.
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You assumed it from context. I've been in 50-50 agony ever since Day started.
860.
Ok, that's what I thought you were going for, but wasn't sure.
Is this you goading Vez to take action and vote so you can hammer me?
Well, that's the hundred thousand dollar question, isn't it? I'm getting there. Sorry I'm so slow.
You know, you keep finding these posts and I find myself nodding along with them, but if you're right, then you're scum. Which would explain why you are posting them with such conviction. You already know that Vez is strongly likely to vote for me, so every post of his that you highlight as "probably coming from town" puts me on the spot to either explain it away or agree with you, and regardless, you're grooming Vez, reinforcing his mentality that you are right and town and I am scum.
I voted him for his bad NK ponderings, then I saw a post of Rhand's that pushed Emiko as scum. I had Emiko as town, so I followed up on it to see if there was any truth to it, didn't read thoroughly enough, fell for Rhand's red herring, and voted Emiko. When I realized my mistake, I didn't re-vote Wisp because I thought he was at L-2, and the rest of the Day was spent trying to sort Wisp and KCC, with several sad flip-flops along the way.
So here's where I'm at, and it sucks.
Vez
+ Scum!Wisp peeking a buddy with zero knowledge of what town PRs might exist feels borderline suicidal. If Vez gets killed before Wisp, Wisp is outed.
+ That post that Vez made towning me right when scum could have moved in for the kill without attracting attention.
- Towning Wisp until Wisp's flip.
- No indication of ever really considering town!KCC to be a possibility until Wisp's flip.
- Low game involvement.
Killjoy
+ Generally good posting, especially felt pure D1 and D2.
+ Feels like he's scumhunting.
- Towned both dead scum many times, and maintained a town read on Rhand.
- Lack of any questioning of KCC's alignment after her claim.
- Confidence in Vez reads are borderline overconfident/TMI.
- Feelings of him being manipulative.
So on the one hand, I want to vote Vez because I would hate to reward what I feel is borderline bad scum play, but if it convinced everyone that Vez was town, then it wasn't bad, just a ballsy choice. I also want to vote Vez because I feel like Killjoy has played a better game in general, so I'd like to reward that, even if I get mislunched and KJ and I lose.
On the other hand, something is very much feeling off about Killjoy. The posts yesterday highlighting things that went along with my gamestate view at the time and asking me what I thought of them. Highlighting multiple Vez posts to me and talking about how town they are. His general heightened self-awareness toDay. EWP: And this latest question about 1338. Really, KJ? You didn't see anything that would have that effect? I had a whole paragraph in that post where I reassess how likely it is that scum!Wisp fake peeks Vez. I feel like you're just itching for Vez to vote me so you can finish me off.
I also see Vez's ultimatum regarding 9.5 hours from now, and I'm about to go to bed then get up and go to work, so I guess this is my last hurrah.
This sucks.
Vote Killjoy
Vez, If you're town, I don't really expect the above to be persuasive, especially since you're tunneling me. If you're willing to leave the tunnel for just a little bit, before you vote, will you please take a look at the questions I asked Wisp D2? I feel like I highlighted multiple discrepancies in his mindset that no one else had, putting pressure on him in ways that wouldn't come from a buddy.
If you're scum, gg.
I hope I'm right, even if I lose.
@Cantrip: *shakes head* I'll get to your questions in a second.
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I highlight those posts because they're... weird if she's scum with them. I'm not sure she's not scum with them, those are just pointers to Vez being town.
I haven't seen a post by you that jumps out at me as specifically unlikely to be posted as scum with them.
I'll tell you what though, Cantrip. I won't cross vote you right now. I'll vote when I get up, so if you happen to be town Vez has to lynch me instead of you so you can maintain your streak.
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Cantrip: Re: Suspicion of Shadow She voiced some suspicion of Shadow, but then she unvotes in favor of KK. She had a little on Last, but also had decent progression on KCC.
Re: Assumed it from context: All you've done today is try to prove me scum. In your VCA, you give vez townpoints and say things like you don't like my vote because it didn't solve the cops despite you wanting to do the exact same thing. (Just after the IF KCC is scum, a couple paragraphs down... "Vaimes suggestion") and also where "the person I find most townie" refers to Vez. Also you've never said a bad word about Vez since Day started, save for a few in your response to her ISO on me, and you don't really seem to even deliberate those.
Vezok->RhandChris
762- Attacks KK for jumping on Rhand for stalling when there was no reason to.
861- Megs scum because of clawing for Rhand wagon
1317- Will lynch Rhand is necessary (wants to wait for replacement)
1534- Wants to look at Chris after last regardless of Last’s flip.
1572- Immediately votes Chris without fighting at all.
Vezok->ShadowLast
64- RVS on shadow “for being a wolf”
271- Tonguewags for saying “I’m having thoughts” instead of either posting the thoughts or just not saying anything.
380- Aggressive vote in response to 356. Says in the whole post that KK is scum, but ends up voting Shadow because shadow’s vote is bad.
440- Shadow can wait. Immediate next post after 380.
445- Thinks there’s one scum between shadow and KK.
666- Why would last fake this?
1259- Thought LAst was being sarcastic, instead was being a smartass. Opinion dropped.
1273- Says it’s sketchy that KCC didn’t check last because it would confirm two people.
1417- Really wants KCC over last.
1487- Votes KCC, but isn’t really pushing it too hard.
ShadowLast->Vezok
444- Asks how likely KK and he are aligned.
585- turns Vezok’s vote on him to justify suspicion on Vaimes.
RhandChris->Vezok
549- Says Vezok’s entrance 64 without weighing in on anything is bad. States 145 is low impact and bothersome. Vezok spots bad KK post, gaining townpoints.
572- Chainsaws Vezok reminding Vaimes that Last had a townpeek on her.
603- Says Last has to be scum for Vezok to be scum.
1435- KCC/Last/Vezok not all scum.
Cantrip->RhandChris
798- Rhand wagon speed is +town for him, but he’ll consider that people are saying that the wagon speed isn’t indicative.
914- Asks Rhand to explain why if tom is scum, LW is scum after I answer.
1160- Asks Rhand why he’s not touching Meg with a 10 foot pole.
1502- Working on a Rhand ISO, haven’t finished it yet.
Cantrip->ShadowLast
137- Agrees with shadow that Emiko is town
345- Agrees that day should not be about silver/tom, presses for info about silver/tom. Shadow continues to ignore.
798- Wisp going after Rhand wagon naked votes is +town for Wisp. Also fencesitty on what claim means for Wisp alignment.
1160- Votes Wisp for wine of “why he wasn’t shot”
1175- Still wants to know why Wisp made that wine post, but would rather be voting Emiko following an impromptu review of him.
1176- Why is Vez unlikely scum with Wisp, Vaimes?
1299- Provides decent scum reasons for Last, doesn’t revote still..
1306- Makes a whole post about KCC, kinda feels like he wants to believe last but can’t seem to find a reason. Beleives we should take Vaime’s suggestion and save the cops for later.
1307- Gives reason why he still thinks Last is scummy.
1432- Thinks Last is scummier, but always thinks last is scum. Doesn’t think Last comes into the game and fakes N0 peek on a buddy (or at all, because Modern). Option 1 doesn’t take into account one being scum, only the not-so-badness if we lynch town.Leans toward Option 1, wants to decide which way to go based on who gets confirmed.
1481- If we were right up against deadline, I’d vote Wisp.
1502- More good reasons for Last to be scum, still no voting.
1507- Why so stingy with your vote, Last?
1510- MORE reasons why last is scum, still no vote.
1527-Still feels like lynching Wisp is something he doesn’t wanna do.
ShadowLast->Cantrip
404- if Tom and silver are scum together, and have daychat (which they’d have to for your hypothetical planned thunderdome), then no, just no. There is no way they elect to make a significant portion of this day focused on being at each other’s throats like that. I know it’s a tinfoil, but I don’t think you should entertain it.
1326-
RhandChris->Cantrip
549- States Cantrip agrees with Shadow about “not exactly one” being townie from Emiko.
806- Says Cantrip might be the scum off his wagon, but not much to go on there.
866- Cantrip or Emiko might be good third scum candidate.
976- “there is a post where I answered why tom can’t be scum without LW.
1016- I’m gonna ISO Cantrip. No time to finish reading.
1022- “There was something [in his ISO] that made me think if he’s scum, it’s with megs or Vezok.
1113- “The only thing that gives me a bit of pause in my current worldview is a post by Cantrip where he says “If you or Meg flips scum, >rand chance the two of you are buddies.” to Vezok.
When scum posts something like this, there is generally a buddy involved, which wouldn’t be true in a Vaimes / Cantrip / Emiko world.”
1435- Two scum in Cantrip/me/Emiko/Meg. This feels more like if we get Cantrip first, he would push for a second.
Other Notable Posts:
Shadow never responds to 271 from Vez.
540- If Cantrip is scum, Osie called the team + me
605- Vezok: Shadow’s vote joining a wagon with her makes much more sense since he knew she was town, also vote otherbuddy Rhand.
1177- Vaimes, about why Vez isn’t scum with Last: “Because LW claiming an innocent on a buddy and then both of them doing literally nothing is not really stellar scum play.
"It feels like scum trying to get as many claims as possible, but without much commitment." But you also think that she could be buddies with LW? What exactly is the strategy behind fakeclaiming a cop check and having your buddy doubt your claim for no concrete reason?”
1189- Osie calls scumteam.
1338- Cantrip reviews posts from Shadow looking for an indication he actually had the peek. Apperently the lack of lack of Shadow doing anything muddied the scumread on that slot?
1514- Cantrip questions vezok on why she’s not doing more to figure out KCC.
1630- Why am I null there? He’s been townreading me all game.
Part of my analysis was gonna say how Vezok looked worse from interactions. I was asking for an extension too but that wasn't needed I guess.
gg, scum
@Cantrip: It wasn't you. Vez played a good game. My read was off too.
Wisp replaces in and claimed the peek without deliberation in scum chat. We just rolled with it. I was scared I'd just screw myself at the end, but it worked out better than expected. I really tried to put work into the last two game days.
It didn't really help my motivation when my last buddy replaced out and Sir Chris simply didn't post anything. I'm glad I could carry it to the end.
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Also VAIMES