Vezok was independently scummy early game, and I'm not totally convinced that she's gotten much better throughout the game... I'mma go ISO there, but I think this game is just in cleanup mode now.
Yeah, after rereading Vezok, in particular recent posts, and knowing that their earlier posts were independently scummy, Vezok probably has to get lynched before Cantrip, probably. We have the mislynch space though, so we can go one way or the other.
I am still screeching. I wish I were dead so I could spam obs with how blown my brain is.
Can you highlight some of vezok's posts that dissatisfy you?
Caveat I guess: #380 is unclear whether or not it would be scum theatre. I'm leaning towards it not now that I look at it again, though.
Vezok's voting Day 1 and Day 2 feels like swinging at windmills a lot, and it's not clear that it's not an act. Something like 1/4 1/3 of Vezok's posts have a vote.
Vezok is generally low energy and waffles a lot.
#605 does not look at all suspicious of Shadow's claim, and the vote of Rhand? Feels like scum FPS, especially if Rhandslot flips scum.
I also didn't like their post toDay, especially after the Last flip. That did not feel like Town reevaluating the game after a surprise.
Here's a semi-PBPA sorting their posts. Most of these votes aren't exactly good ones in context.
Key:
Probably Right : Probably Wrong (Assuming Last/Chris/Cant) | Has Vote : Just Speech
#64 (Shadow) - 1:0|1:0
#74 (Susp Vaimes) - 1:0|1:1
#145 (Unvote) - 2:0|2:1
#189 (KK) - 2:1|3:1
#202 (Defense from Tom) - 2:1|3:2
#271 (Low-content Quote Wall) - 2:1|3:3
#380 (Shadow) - 3:1|4:3
#418 (Readslist, with scummy slots other than Shadow at null) - 3:1|4:4
#440 (KK) - 3:2|5:4
#445 (Susp Shadow and KK) - 3:2|5:5
#605 (Rhand) - 4:2|6:5 Meanwhile, she townreads Last.
#611 (Reminding KK of votal) - 4:2|6:6
#666 (Defending Last's claim) - 4:2|6:7
#698 (Tom) - 4:3|7:7
#746 (Susp KK) - 4:3|7:8
#755 (KK) - 4:4|8:8
#762 (Pushing KK) - 4:4|8:9
#861 (Teambuilding KK+Megs w/ KCC+Rhand as town) - 4:4|8:10
#933 (Pushing KK, waffling on Tom/Silver/Megs) - 4:4|8:11
#1011 (Doubling down KK + Maybe Megs) - 4:4|8:12
#1094 (Meg/Cantrip 1 Scum, waffle on Emiko) - 4:4|8:13
#1095 (Cantrip) - 5:4|9:13
#1112 (Emiko's Town) - 5:4|9:14
#1117 (Analysis of Vaimes replacement consideration) - 5:4|9:15
#1163 (Cantrip+KCC and Cantrip+Rhand not Scum, KJ & KCC scum, Meg/Cantrip 1 Scum, Cantrip scum) - 5:4|9:16
#1217 (Megs) - 5:5|10:16
#1259 (Defending Last while dumping on him) - 5:5|10:17
#1261 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:18
#1270 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:19
#1273 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:20
#1281 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:20
#1285 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:20
#1330 (V/LA) - 000000
#1417 (KCC) - 5:6|10:21
#1431 (Unvote) - 6:6|11:21
#1487 (KCC) - 6:7|12:21
#1534 (LW-scum means same as all day, LW-town means KCC-scum, reread KJ+me) - 6:7|12:22
#1535 (LW is Town) - 6:7|12:23
#1572 (Sir Chris) - 7:7|13:23
Uggh after doing that I dislike Vezok's posts even more. I think the Shadow susp wasn't handled enough by others to be excluded from potential bussing.
The likelyhood of this actually being a hit based on the speed of the train growth is less likely
I originally didn't like his response to my claim, but that's weak, and on a macro level he hasn't done anything wolfy, and I've been witness to Rhand getting lynched for some bs stuff
Time to find the wolf that's voting him
In my notes, I have one post under the Scum Equity heading, and this is it... and it's about Rhand/Last. I want this up here for my readings.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@kj re: vaimes: I sort of get the impression that vaimes just... completely ignores anything he isn't actively interested in. Not in the way that I do it, he feels more like he's dancing about when he does it.
By this I mean to say this feels like what he does as town.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Nothing from Chris in almost 48 hours feels super unlikely to come from town, but I'm not going to cast stones on that front when my own weekends are so high-committment/internet-less. I'd certainly still like to hear from him before we lunch him.
I've done some rereading, but not much. Vaimes' research into Rhand's interactions with Shadow/Wisp seems to hold up so far. We should be at 5-2, so if Chris is town, we'll likely start D4 at 3-2 (specifically me/Vaimes/Killjoy/Vez/Megiddo), at which point it almost has to be Megiddo+Vez/Killjoy.
Vaimes, are you saying if I were scum you'd get revenge on me for Stormy Night? I wasn't even in that game, dude.
Ok, D1 colored VC's. Going through trying to see if there are clear likely buddy combinations among Wisp/Rhand/Megiddo/Vez.
I initially thought that Shadow voting behind Megiddo made it slightly less likely that Wisp and Megiddo were buddies, but Megiddo had his vote on KK from very early, there were several hundred posts before Shadow voted, and when he did, Vez was on KK's wagon (Vez later went to Shadow and then rejoined KK's wagon), so could totally still be buddies. Pretty unlikely, I think, that BOTH Megiddo and Vez are scum, as Vez didn't seem uncomfortable jumping to Shadow and back to KK. If Megiddo isn't scum, very strong chance that Rhand is.
That Rhand wagon was three series of near-naked votes in the span of five posts, and reads like Wisp wanting to not miss the wagon. A scant four posts later Vez votes Rhand with pretty vague reasoning, but then Megiddo naked votes two posts later (although he had been scumreading Rhand prior to that). I feel like all the ???'s on this wagon (Vaimes, Vez, Megiddo) are pretty aware of the generalization "fast wagon = more likely to be town", so I think it's more likely that those naked votes weren't attempts to run up town, but instead more likely to be fast votes on a buddy. Doesn't help sort between Vez and Megiddo if Rhand does flip scum, but mildly makes me feel it more likely Rhand is scum in the first place. Silver was actually the first to say scum!Rhand was unlikely due to the speed of the wagon. Shortly after this is Wisp's "Y'all we can chill now" unvote of Rhand, and a few posts later Wisp reiterates that logic. Wisp also asks Rhand who the wolves on his (Rhand's) wagon are, and Rhand doesn't really answer other than mentioning that he was already scumreading Vaimes.
It maybe feels weird that Wisp is ok speedwagoning buddy!Rhand then chooses buddy!Megiddo as his leap-off wagon? Unless Wisp was specifically trying to muddy VCA, wouldn't he want to push a town counterwagon?
So in 745 KK votes Rhand, putting him to L-2. Vez attacks KK for attacking Rhand while Rhand is VLA. Killjoy also defends Rhand's activity level. 753 Vaimes says he's ok with a Rhand claim, Silver chimes in and agrees that Rhand should claim. Nothing for four hours and Vez pops in to move from Rhand to KK, no comment on Rhand claiming/not claiming, just a push to KK right when Rhand would naturally claim, which isn't a good look for Vez. And six minutes later Rhand is in-thread, not-claiming and voting KK to put him to 2 votes as in the above VC. Borderline TWTBAW (or maybe Rhand capitalizing on Vez leaping to a townie), maybe? But...it sorta feels indicative to me.
If the team is Rhand/Megiddo, then Meg's playing it pretty cool here, staying on his buddy while KK gets run up, and Wisp is also just hanging out on a buddy. I mean...when I'm scum, that's the kind of situation I generally want: a townie getting run up with as few red votes on them as possible, so is this just Wisp and Megiddo hedging their bets/VCA positions so that they can point back to being on scum while KK was being run up?
Not Voting (5): tomsloger, Vaimes, KoolKoal, EmikoYuriemoto, Megiddo
Lots of unvotes here, and Megiddo's leaving Rhand is just a naked unvote (no real mention in recent Meg posts about getting good/bad feelings about Rhand). If scum!Megiddo wasn't going to pressure anywhere else, wouldn't he be pretty happy sitting on Rhand in case Rhand flipped later? Why would scum!Megiddo unvote a buddy here and just chill the rest of the Day?
On the maybe-not-Vez/Rhand/Wisp side, that team would be piledriving KK here. It's not a guarantee that town looks back and lunches through the ???'s on the first town wagon, but it feels to me like that pretty frequently happens, so all three of them being here feels a little risky?
I don't know. A lot of my musings are dependent on Chris being scum, I think, but if he is, I feel like Vez's shift from Rhand to KK is super shady and may be the most significant thing I found.
Vez, can you talk about why you didn't wait for a Rhand claim there (your 744, I believe)?
I guess I'll have to take a harder look at vezok. I seem to be the only one townreading her.
Will say that her also being almost completely absent in the last 48 hours isn't good when she knows she's being side-eyed.
I had her pegged as strongly likely town regardless of Wisp's alignment because...fake claiming cop is ballsy. Fake peeking your buddy is almost begging for something to go wrong. If Vez had been vigged, Wisp would have been auto-lunched. Just feels like the risk is really high, even if the potential reward is also somewhat high.
But I don't feel like she's been scumhunting, and that vote change from Rhand to KK is HORRIBLE if Rhand is scum.
if the scumteam is exactly Rhandslot / Vez / Last, honestly it makes a lot of sense to run a high-risk gambit there. That collection of players wasn't really pulling its weight just on pure post count, and 2/3 have replaced.
Last replacing in, surveying the world, and then trying to run something like that seems like something you might do to create UNCERTAINTY around a buddy who probably needs extra reasons to survive to endgame.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I mean...I guess your ultimate revenge would be you being scum here, which I'm not discounting entirely, but it feels pretty unlikely.
Tom vigging Vez would definitely changed the game (and been extra hilarious if Vez was scum), but it would have been pretty bad play, especially since Tom was townreading Wisp.
One reason I have for townreading vezok is that I think it's ~possible scum have an informed goon, who learned pregame that vezok is a VT.
Aside from that, or vezok just being scum, I can't see why they'd run this gambit with her specifically. She was voting Wisp when he replaced in, but that's a pretty wild on-the-fly decision to make.
I faked being Merlin in post-game of Avalon.
Sir Chris lynch into one of Vezok/Cantrip, then the other.
I suppose that game was more memorable for me than for anyone else being my first game on the site.
What's with the gimmick?
I figured it would make the game more enjoyable, which it did.
I feel like I need to lie down.
Can you highlight some of vezok's posts that dissatisfy you?
Caveat I guess: #380 is unclear whether or not it would be scum theatre. I'm leaning towards it not now that I look at it again, though.
Vezok's voting Day 1 and Day 2 feels like swinging at windmills a lot, and it's not clear that it's not an act. Something like
1/41/3 of Vezok's posts have a vote.Vezok is generally low energy and waffles a lot.
#605 does not look at all suspicious of Shadow's claim, and the vote of Rhand? Feels like scum FPS, especially if Rhandslot flips scum.
I also didn't like their post toDay, especially after the Last flip. That did not feel like Town reevaluating the game after a surprise.
Here's a semi-PBPA sorting their posts. Most of these votes aren't exactly good ones in context.
Key:
#64 (Shadow) - 1:0|1:0
#74 (Susp Vaimes) - 1:0|1:1
#145 (Unvote) - 2:0|2:1
#189 (KK) - 2:1|3:1
#202 (Defense from Tom) - 2:1|3:2
#271 (Low-content Quote Wall) - 2:1|3:3
#380 (Shadow) - 3:1|4:3
#418 (Readslist, with scummy slots other than Shadow at null) - 3:1|4:4
#440 (KK) - 3:2|5:4
#445 (Susp Shadow and KK) - 3:2|5:5
#605 (Rhand) - 4:2|6:5 Meanwhile, she townreads Last.
#611 (Reminding KK of votal) - 4:2|6:6
#666 (Defending Last's claim) - 4:2|6:7
#698 (Tom) - 4:3|7:7
#746 (Susp KK) - 4:3|7:8
#755 (KK) - 4:4|8:8
#762 (Pushing KK) - 4:4|8:9
#861 (Teambuilding KK+Megs w/ KCC+Rhand as town) - 4:4|8:10
#933 (Pushing KK, waffling on Tom/Silver/Megs) - 4:4|8:11
#1011 (Doubling down KK + Maybe Megs) - 4:4|8:12
#1094 (Meg/Cantrip 1 Scum, waffle on Emiko) - 4:4|8:13
#1095 (Cantrip) - 5:4|9:13
#1112 (Emiko's Town) - 5:4|9:14
#1117 (Analysis of Vaimes replacement consideration) - 5:4|9:15
#1163 (Cantrip+KCC and Cantrip+Rhand not Scum, KJ & KCC scum, Meg/Cantrip 1 Scum, Cantrip scum) - 5:4|9:16
#1217 (Megs) - 5:5|10:16
#1259 (Defending Last while dumping on him) - 5:5|10:17
#1261 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:18
#1270 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:19
#1273 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:20
#1281 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:20
#1285 (Doubting KCC claim) - 5:5|10:20
#1330 (V/LA) - 000000
#1417 (KCC) - 5:6|10:21
#1431 (Unvote) - 6:6|11:21
#1487 (KCC) - 6:7|12:21
#1534 (LW-scum means same as all day, LW-town means KCC-scum, reread KJ+me) - 6:7|12:22
#1535 (LW is Town) - 6:7|12:23
#1572 (Sir Chris) - 7:7|13:23
Hammering some time in the next 24 hours, I think.
#1330 (V/LA) - 000000
#1417 (KCC) - 5:6|11:21
#1431 (Unvote) - 6:6|12:21
#1487 (KCC) - 6:7|13:21
#1534 (LW-scum means same as all day, LW-town means KCC-scum, reread KJ+me) - 6:7|13:22
#1535 (LW is Town) - 6:7|13:23
#1572 (Sir Chris) - 7:7|14:23
instead.
I will post this:
In my notes, I have one post under the Scum Equity heading, and this is it... and it's about Rhand/Last. I want this up here for my readings.
By this I mean to say this feels like what he does as town.
Assuming the scumteam is Last + Sir Chris + Cantripmancer, then the numbers are:
But with Vezok as scum in place of Cantrip, those number don't change.
EBWODP: significantly.
Though it’d be nice to get renege for Stormy Night.
EmikOsie:
Vaimes:
Killjoy
Vezok
Megiddo
Chris
Nothing from Chris in almost 48 hours feels super unlikely to come from town, but I'm not going to cast stones on that front when my own weekends are so high-committment/internet-less. I'd certainly still like to hear from him before we lunch him.
I've done some rereading, but not much. Vaimes' research into Rhand's interactions with Shadow/Wisp seems to hold up so far. We should be at 5-2, so if Chris is town, we'll likely start D4 at 3-2 (specifically me/Vaimes/Killjoy/Vez/Megiddo), at which point it almost has to be Megiddo+Vez/Killjoy.
Vaimes, are you saying if I were scum you'd get revenge on me for Stormy Night? I wasn't even in that game, dude.
Ok, D1 colored VC's. Going through trying to see if there are clear likely buddy combinations among Wisp/Rhand/Megiddo/Vez.
I initially thought that Shadow voting behind Megiddo made it slightly less likely that Wisp and Megiddo were buddies, but Megiddo had his vote on KK from very early, there were several hundred posts before Shadow voted, and when he did, Vez was on KK's wagon (Vez later went to Shadow and then rejoined KK's wagon), so could totally still be buddies. Pretty unlikely, I think, that BOTH Megiddo and Vez are scum, as Vez didn't seem uncomfortable jumping to Shadow and back to KK. If Megiddo isn't scum, very strong chance that Rhand is.
That Rhand wagon was three series of near-naked votes in the span of five posts, and reads like Wisp wanting to not miss the wagon. A scant four posts later Vez votes Rhand with pretty vague reasoning, but then Megiddo naked votes two posts later (although he had been scumreading Rhand prior to that). I feel like all the ???'s on this wagon (Vaimes, Vez, Megiddo) are pretty aware of the generalization "fast wagon = more likely to be town", so I think it's more likely that those naked votes weren't attempts to run up town, but instead more likely to be fast votes on a buddy. Doesn't help sort between Vez and Megiddo if Rhand does flip scum, but mildly makes me feel it more likely Rhand is scum in the first place. Silver was actually the first to say scum!Rhand was unlikely due to the speed of the wagon. Shortly after this is Wisp's "Y'all we can chill now" unvote of Rhand, and a few posts later Wisp reiterates that logic. Wisp also asks Rhand who the wolves on his (Rhand's) wagon are, and Rhand doesn't really answer other than mentioning that he was already scumreading Vaimes.
It maybe feels weird that Wisp is ok speedwagoning buddy!Rhand then chooses buddy!Megiddo as his leap-off wagon? Unless Wisp was specifically trying to muddy VCA, wouldn't he want to push a town counterwagon?
So in 745 KK votes Rhand, putting him to L-2. Vez attacks KK for attacking Rhand while Rhand is VLA. Killjoy also defends Rhand's activity level. 753 Vaimes says he's ok with a Rhand claim, Silver chimes in and agrees that Rhand should claim. Nothing for four hours and Vez pops in to move from Rhand to KK, no comment on Rhand claiming/not claiming, just a push to KK right when Rhand would naturally claim, which isn't a good look for Vez. And six minutes later Rhand is in-thread, not-claiming and voting KK to put him to 2 votes as in the above VC. Borderline TWTBAW (or maybe Rhand capitalizing on Vez leaping to a townie), maybe? But...it sorta feels indicative to me.
If the team is Rhand/Megiddo, then Meg's playing it pretty cool here, staying on his buddy while KK gets run up, and Wisp is also just hanging out on a buddy. I mean...when I'm scum, that's the kind of situation I generally want: a townie getting run up with as few red votes on them as possible, so is this just Wisp and Megiddo hedging their bets/VCA positions so that they can point back to being on scum while KK was being run up?
Lots of unvotes here, and Megiddo's leaving Rhand is just a naked unvote (no real mention in recent Meg posts about getting good/bad feelings about Rhand). If scum!Megiddo wasn't going to pressure anywhere else, wouldn't he be pretty happy sitting on Rhand in case Rhand flipped later? Why would scum!Megiddo unvote a buddy here and just chill the rest of the Day?
On the maybe-not-Vez/Rhand/Wisp side, that team would be piledriving KK here. It's not a guarantee that town looks back and lunches through the ???'s on the first town wagon, but it feels to me like that pretty frequently happens, so all three of them being here feels a little risky?
I don't know. A lot of my musings are dependent on Chris being scum, I think, but if he is, I feel like Vez's shift from Rhand to KK is super shady and may be the most significant thing I found.
Vez, can you talk about why you didn't wait for a Rhand claim there (your 744, I believe)?
Quick, Cantrip, dump more thoughts before Bur notices!
Something.
BTW, when I was reading the exchange where Osie revealed and Vaimes was having his mind blown, I literally stopped to go get a bag of popcorn.
Low Fantasy, maybe? But I was pretty non-impactful that game, iirc. Oh, probably Overwatch. (List of my games are in my stats link if you want...)
Will say that her also being almost completely absent in the last 48 hours isn't good when she knows she's being side-eyed.
Also I've lost a lot of games this year lmao.
Anyway who cares.
Yay Meg!!!
But I don't feel like she's been scumhunting, and that vote change from Rhand to KK is HORRIBLE if Rhand is scum.
TOM why didn't you vig vezok, it would've been hilarious.
if the scumteam is exactly Rhandslot / Vez / Last, honestly it makes a lot of sense to run a high-risk gambit there. That collection of players wasn't really pulling its weight just on pure post count, and 2/3 have replaced.
Last replacing in, surveying the world, and then trying to run something like that seems like something you might do to create UNCERTAINTY around a buddy who probably needs extra reasons to survive to endgame.
Tom vigging Vez would definitely changed the game (and been extra hilarious if Vez was scum), but it would have been pretty bad play, especially since Tom was townreading Wisp.
Aside from that, or vezok just being scum, I can't see why they'd run this gambit with her specifically. She was voting Wisp when he replaced in, but that's a pretty wild on-the-fly decision to make.