One reason I have for townreading vezok is that I think it's ~possible scum have an informed goon, who learned pregame that vezok is a VT.
Aside from that, or vezok just being scum, I can't see why they'd run this gambit with her specifically. She was voting Wisp when he replaced in, but that's a pretty wild on-the-fly decision to make.
I could see that being the kind of scum PR in this game, I suppose? Although one of the modgaming elements that bugged me about Wisp's claim was that a N0 peek is low-skill-intensive (as opposed to a 1-shot cop), and I like to think Bur would push skill-testing abilities in his games, but that's a pretty low-level read on the situation, especially when scum teams are more likely, imo, to simply be given game information.
I don't really remember why I moved from Rhand to KK. I'd have to check, but I'm too tired to do that right now.
Also nobody posted anything while I was available and then instead posted a ton of things when I was doing other stuff. I know I haven't been pulling my weight. It was mostly because Last townfirmed me, but apparently that was just a gambit.
On one hand I'm kinda fine with getting lynched tomorrow and then you guys figuring out LyLo by yourselves, but on the other hand, I kinda want to put it in the work and not just die.
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Eh. Out all this, tom just looks so much worse than silver. tom is backtracking on his position of the whole. You either think it's fake and scummy or you don't. Feels like a bad position to take.
But the worst part of this is that he is accusing silver of keeping mislynches open when silver has clearly not done this.
I'm really starting to think tom is just scum. He seems to be misrepping people for no reason way too much.
unvote
vote tom
I lied. I had a sudden spur of motivation and went back and checked why I moved. Rhand was being inactive and I didn't really have that much conviction in the read. tom on the other hand was being really unfair to silver and hounding him to make him a mislynch, . That didn't sit well with me and I wanted to push a tom wagon. In hindsight it was just a town versus town fight and I misinterpreted tom's attacks as scum trying to lynch a good player on day 1.
And another smaller point, it took 12 hours before Rhand posted again after I moved my vote from him to tom. My jump to KK was from tom and not from Rhand.
So yeah, not really sure how to feel about this misrep. I expect town Cantrip to have checked a bit more thoroughly. This just feels like a veiled attack on me, because I'm the easy mislynch.
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Not much had time passed since you found Verka's room, costume and props destroyed and once again people are craving for blood. All this fighting here had already numbed your emotions and you just stand by and watch as the guards are coming once again...
Sir Chris (4): Vaimes, Megiddo, vezokpiraka, EmikoYuriemoto
Not Voting (3): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, Killjoy
V/LA: -
That's a lynch! Stand by for end of day scene!
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Eh. Out all this, tom just looks so much worse than silver. tom is backtracking on his position of the whole. You either think it's fake and scummy or you don't. Feels like a bad position to take.
But the worst part of this is that he is accusing silver of keeping mislynches open when silver has clearly not done this.
I'm really starting to think tom is just scum. He seems to be misrepping people for no reason way too much.
unvote
vote tom
I lied. I had a sudden spur of motivation and went back and checked why I moved. Rhand was being inactive and I didn't really have that much conviction in the read. tom on the other hand was being really unfair to silver and hounding him to make him a mislynch, . That didn't sit well with me and I wanted to push a tom wagon. In hindsight it was just a town versus town fight and I misinterpreted tom's attacks as scum trying to lynch a good player on day 1.
And another smaller point, it took 12 hours before Rhand posted again after I moved my vote from him to tom. My jump to KK was from tom and not from Rhand.
So yeah, not really sure how to feel about this misrep. I expect town Cantrip to have checked a bit more thoroughly. This just feels like a veiled attack on me, because I'm the easy mislynch.
Hmm, I was trying to go through and get some thoughts out because I hadn't posted much content since Day started, and I thought your move was from Rhand to KK, but you're right (Rhand was still at L-2 because Tom naked voted him in 735). Sorry I missed it. I can understand why you don't like me for it, but I wasn't pushing for YOU to be lunched toDay. Scum!me doesn't make bad pushes on things that are going to be easily fact-checked/disproven. But self-meta, so, *shrug*.
This time the focus was on a Romanian group, lead by a person who seems to be Dracula (or one of this relatives). Apparently someone had said something rude about Romanian stereotypes and that had been enough to trigger the fight. And besides that all, this other guy kinda reminds you about Verka. Both had foil and glitter in their costumes and this one was much less flashy. Maybe that's the reason why he would've wanted to get rid of your beloved Verka...?
You watched as the guards carried the whole Romanian crew away and out of the premises. Even though they are gone, their voices still haunt your mind. You take a small shot from your trusted bottle and hope it'll all go away soon.
Sir Chris has been lynched! They were:
Welcome to the game! Your role is the following:
Alignment: Mafia Role: Daychat Enabler Song: It's My Life Performed by: Cezar Country: Romania
"It's my life and I know it's not forever
It's my life and I'll share it all with you
It's my life, we were meant to be together"
Ah, Eurovision. Once again the time to show of your country's culture and great performances. And what else would be more fitting for Romania than a guy dressed up as a vampire, covered in glitter and singing opera in falsetto? As we all know, that's totes 100 % fitting representation of whole Romania!
While you didn't score especially high back in 2013, you still left an impression on people with your wacky performance, dividing people into two camps: those who think it was very clever and great performance and those who think it was just a dull, tasteless attempt at wackiness.
Still, there's no denying that you won't leave anyone without an impression. People will either hate or love you, there's no in-between. And now that you have allied yourself with few other performers with less noble intentions, this is a perfect chance for you to rise your approval ratings by only sparing those who see you and your performance in positive light...
Mob of Vampires (passive): As long as you are alive, you and rest of the mafia team may communicate anytime with some help from your personal mob of vampires.
You win when you have taken the control over this show!
With yet another perpetrator removed from the premises, you finally start sighing in relief. Maybe this incident will have a happy ending after all...
It's now Night 3. Day 4 will start in ~24 hours.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Soon after you had removed Dracula from the premises, an elderly lady started complaining about how she's no longer feeling her legs and started shaking uncontrollably. You helped her sit down, gave her something non-alcoholic to drink, but her condition didn't seem to improve at all despite your efforts. After thinking about it for a moment, you let the guards know who called the paramedic team and carried the old lady away.
You heard the guards muttering something about the lady "being too old to be able handle all this stress and drama in the backstage" before the beeping of your social media feed interrupted you.
EmikoYuriemoto has been found dead! They were:
Welcome to the game! Your role is the following:
Alignment: Town Role: Vanilla Song: Refrain Performed by: Lys Assia Country: Switzerland
"But only and without spring
I run in vain, in the woods, the fields
Telling me to remember you, our love of another time"
Look at all these youngsters and their attempts at winning the Eurovision. You've been at this business even before the others were even born! Back in your day, you'd have to rely purely on your skills and song and nothing else. No dancing, no pyrotechnics, nothing. And as 1956 proved, you know how to sing.
Now, as the first and original winner of Eurovision, you have decided to share your wisdom and experience with those youngsters, in hopes that one day they will be able to stand by you as an equal. And while you are at it, get rid of those horrendous performances attempting to ruin this show. Back in your day, they wouldn't have been let inside the building, not to mention participating in the competition. Oh, how times have changed.
Still, with grace and elegance, it should a piece of cake for you. Quickly get rid of that horrible cacophony of sounds, and they your lovely voice once again can charm the people all over the world!
You have no abilities.
You win when all the hostile performances have been dropped out of the competition!
With yet another participant gone, the backstage is starting to feel empty. Luckily, you know it won't take long until all of this is over.
It's now Day 4. With 5 alive, it’s 3 to lynch. Deadline is on November 3rd.
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RVS's Shadow "because he's a wolf". Mild questions Vaimes. Unvotes saying RVS voting doesn't matter. Votes KK for not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing her.
A few posts later, votes Shadow for Shadow's attack on KK, but still sees KK as scummy. T/S List with Rhand at null and Shadow at "pretty scummy" with KK, but no one "Scum".
Votes KK for KK's attack on Silver, says "Shadow can wait". Shadow asks how likely it is that he (Shadow) and KK are scum together, and Vez says it's 10% possible they're scum together, 30% possible they're town together, but she thinks at least one of them is scum.
Her next post is after Wisp claims, and Vez says that Shadow's choices make more sense if Shadow knew Vez was town, Vez towns Wisp, then vaguely alludes to something about Rhand being off and leaves KK to vote Rhand (highest wagon with 3 votes: Tom, Vaimes, Wisp). No mention of KK.
Vez, why move your vote off KK (without even mentioning them), especially if you thought it strongly likely that there was one scum in Shadow/KK and Shadow was "cleared" to you? Your reasons for suspecting KK were a lot stronger than the "there's something off about Rhand. He seems to be saying the right words, but his heart doesn't seem to be in it" you leveled at Rhand.
Vez pours some wine regarding reasons that Wisp would have faked a peek on Vez. Then moves votes from Rhand to Tom for misrepping people for no reason.
This post includes what could be hyper-awareness on the state of the game concerning Rhand, but I guess Vez could have just checked that before posting, too. Next few posts are positions of certainty on KK without a lot of reason to back them up. Mentions Tom could be scum, Megs could be scum but less than before, Vez isn't feeling me.
Day 2: She starts out with suspicion on Megs and me, with me more likely to have shot Tom, then votes me in her next post. Mentions Emiko seemed town D1 but Vez doesn't like her vote on Wisp. Wisp asks why Emiko was town and Vez gives reasons. Vez gives minor scum equity to Vaimes.
Vez, who were you responding to in 1163? I'm not sure I see anyone tying me to KCC or Rhand?
This is one of the biggest reasons I was townreading Vez independent of Wisp's claim. At this point, Vez had been poking and prodding at me all game, which could have been sincere or could have been scum testing the waters. I made that poor attack on Emiko, realized my mistake, posted the apology and explanation of my thought process, and Vez (without anyone else weighing in) gives me town points for it. I just...can't imagine scum!Vez not at least throwing up an IGMEOY or something. It wouldn't have cost him anything to express at least a little doubt or suspicion. If she had been poking for an opening, this would be the time to ATTACK me, not reverse course. Unless maybe she really thought my post was going to garner strong townreads and wanted to get out in front of that...but she would presumably know that her post saying it's townie would influence later posts...so...I almost feel like stopping my review here and just townslotting Vez. If she's scum, she played this exchange really well.
Votes KCC, unvotes for the extension, then pushes for one of the cops to be lunched and chooses KCC. Says if Wisp flips scum, she's looking looking at me/Megiddo but also at Chris no matter what Wisp's flip. This also feels unlikely to come from a Wisp/Chris buddy.
Last post of D2 is saying she's at 5% that Wisp could be scum. And this is at a point where Wisp is almost certainly the lunch.
D3 jumps on the Chris wagon (after Vaimes and Megiddo). Could be just trying to get out in front of this one?
I don't know....I think I'm leaning toward Vez just being a misguided townie. I could put a case together that fairly strongly pointed to her being scum, I think, but I just trip over 1217 every time I read it. Really feels like town reassessing/I can't find scum motivation for going that route. I mean...SUUUUUUPER long-game "I've gotta get Cantrip in my pocket in case we're in lylo together" or something, but... Plus, I think it's really unlikely that Wisp risks a fake peek on a buddy. Plus I don't think Vez would agree to such a plan, and if Wisp just blazed in with that plan without running it by his buddies, I think I'd hear some vitriol from Vez, and I don't see that, either. Nope, I think I'm going with town!Vez.
If anyone wants to fact check me on 1217: iso Vez, look at the numerous mentions/digs against me, then read 1217 as though you're town!me. Is it possible that comes from scum!Vez?
I'm writing this a few hours before Day opens with the assumption that EmikOsie (or maybe Vaimes) will be dead. With that in mind, I'm here:
EmikOsie (Confirmed Town)
Vaimes (Pushed fairly hard on Wisp D2, was THE primary on Rhand/Chris D3; scum!Vaimes here deserves the win, townslotted)
Vez (See above)
Killjoy (Pure posts in general, but I will review before the Day is out)
Megiddo (Has been a potential candidate in my mind all game, now most likely candidate by default, so I'll look at his posts next)
Do think vez is town, but the voteswap from Rhand to KK when we now know Rhand was the Daychat enabler is...not good.
I kind of want KJ to justify his Rhand read. I asked and he never answered. Feel like his scumread on me is/was equally as baseless as the one Rhand was pushing.
@Vaimes: I would have answered had the day not ended so soon. I fell asleep, then when I woke up the day was over.
Since my Rhand meta is apparently outdated, there's no point in holding it back now. Town!Rhand doesn't know who the scum are. Town!Rhand (usually) has decent progression on people and (not usually, pretty much always) asks questions that he cares about. Town!Rhand makes similar posts to 549. Scum!Rhand doesn't care about his questions, has fake progression overall.
The problem with reading Rhand based on typical mafia tells is he makes a lot of them as town. I've tried that, it doesn't work for me. So I tried this, and it was working until now. So, thats why I read Rhand that way. I will note that I did notice/eyebrowed (but didn't really put too much stock into that because I thought my meta was much stronger than it was.
Now, like I said that post I quoted there was the only thing I had noted as people with scum equity together, so I was getting ready to at least reanalyze Rhand. Which is why I was saying that we should give Chris a chance to speak. I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to see if he ALSO didn't question my read on him. You'll notice in my post following his replace I said I had a townread on him with for no reason or whatever... I wanted to see his reaction to that. But then Day ended.
Do you have any questions for me about my scumread of you from earlier? I thought I explained that. (I think that might have been wrong now, but it was for sure there at one point.)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You'll notice in my post following his replace I said I had a townread on him with for no reason or whatever... I wanted to see his reaction to that. But then Day ended.
2.1
Vaimes (2): Lastwhisper, Sir Chris
Sir Chris (1): Vaimes
Lastwhisper (1): EmikoYuriemoto
Cantripmancer (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (4): Cantripmancer, Killjoy, Megiddo, KittyCupcake
2.2
Vaimes (2): Lastwhisper, Sir Chris
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, Cantripmancer
Sir Chris (1): Vaimes
Cantripmancer (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (3): Killjoy, Megiddo, KittyCupcake
2.3
Lastwhisper (3): EmikoYuriemoto, Vaimes, KittyCupcake
Vaimes (2): Lastwhisper, Sir Chris
EmikoYuriemoto (1): Cantripmancer
Megiddo (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (2): Killjoy, Megiddo
2.4
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake
Vaimes (1): Sir Chris
Megiddo (1): vezokpiraka
Sir Chris (1): Vaimes
Not Voting (4): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer
2.5
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
2.6
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
2.7
Lastwhisper (3): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake, Vaimes
Megiddo (2): Killjoy, Sir Chris
KittyCupcake (2): vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper
Not Voting (2): Megiddo, Cantripmancer
2.8 (Final D2)
Lastwhisper (5): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupCake, Vaimes, Killjoy, Cantripmancer
KittyCupCake (2): vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (1): Sir Chris
Not Voting (1): Megiddo
3.1 Sir Chris (3): Vaimes, Megiddo, vezokpiraka
Not Voting (4): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, Killjoy, EmikoYuriemoto
3.2 (Final D3)
Sir Chris (4): Vaimes, Megiddo, vezokpiraka, EmikoYuriemoto
Not Voting (3): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, Killjoy
(I just forcereplaced replacements so all Rhands are Sir Chris etc)
Ok. So.
Possible scum: Vaimes, Cantrip, Meg, Vezok.
I don't think Vaimes is scum with RhandChris and Last due to the votecounts 2.1-2.3. Both scum voting their only buddy despite him not really being super widely scumread (like, if this was Meg I'd maybe have a different conclusion here) just seems like it's going against their wincon. I'm also noting that Vaimes voting record is decent (much better than his recent scumgame whos name I always forget where Tom caught him and I was like "his voting sucks but behaviorally he's town) since he spent a lot of D1 on RhandChris. It's also worth noting that I don't think Vaimes really NEEDED to vote on KK to get the kill there. If he was scum I'd have expected him to stay away and let Meg come in and hammer instead.
Also actually he pretty much spent D2 voting all the scum we know about now.
Vaimes
Cantrip spent all of D1 voting for unknown Meg, was on scum as of 2.2, but then votes OsieMiko in 2.3, then isn't voting anyone except to come in and hammer Last. He never votes D3 though I recall him being out of town or something? Either way, it doesn't tell us much. I'd probably put it slightly leaning scum because the hammer on Last and early pull off of last onto a townie is something scum would do.
Cantrip
Meg is weird. So, there was this whole hullaballoo with wagons and counterwagons on D1. Given that Rhand was town (at the time), I was convinced that meant that Meg was counter to BOTH Rhand and KK. BUT NOW Rhand is scum and... that makes his wagon less likely to be a scum one. From 1.3 to 1.6, Megs and Chris are basically equal... and there's no real push away from that gamestate by scum. Which is weird if two scum are top wagons. LastSlot was even voting Meg at this time. (I also noticed that Megs was on Rhandslot all that time, so I checked, he was V/LA during that time, so it's not a thing). He never votes D2, but scumChrisRhand does vote for him. So he could be a counter to the Last wagon that Day. The vote in D3 was ok, didn't feel super like he was trying to appease Vaimes I don't think.
He's PROBABLY town? Less likely than Vaimes, more likely than Cantrip.
Meg
Looking at D1, and the KK lynch, I feel like scum piling on to KK with vez starting it and the other two joining later is probably not a thing. Her voting isn't the best on D2, with her voting Cantrip+Meg (unknowns) + Kitty (town), though Last being on Kitty with heris a point in her favor. The D3 vote is fine, but unremarkable. She's just /barning Vaimes and voting.
Could be scum, but probably town.
Vez
In order of likelihood I would say Cantrip > Vez >>> Meg
Worth a note: Neither Cantrip nor Vez have been voted by known scum.
This is all purely based on votes btw. Like, I would say Vez gets some credit because Last probably doesn't peek his buddy. So probably Cantrip >> Vez >>>> Meg taking that into account.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Seems like we're killing Meg and then, if failure, vezok.
But let's actually take at least a week to reread and chat.
Cantrip, I don't understand this line: "[vezok] Votes KK for not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing her." You wrote this last Night, after KCC flipped town, so why suspect bussing here?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I've been thinking a lot during the night about Cantrip. His stance before night was extremely weird and now with his post today it feels like he changed his mind on mislynching me and instead wants to focus on KJ and meg. It feels like scum testing the waters to see what he can mislynch.
I also need to do a reread, but I need to get to my job. I'll do it after.
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you made a great case for vez scum there; even the post you think is +town doesn’t really feel that strong to me
Did you actually do what I suggested you do (reading that post of Vez's from a town!me perspective after he was scumreading me quite frequently before that)?
Quote from Megiddo »
i’ll accept being the lynch Today for POE purposes but absolutely not “by default.” make a case. i’ll talk through it.
The "by default" was moreso "plus I have reasons for town reading everyone else". And I said I'd turn my attention to you/your posts next.
I’ll 100% admit, KJ has completely flown under my radar because I assumed if he was scum, someone else would catch him slash it would be obvious.
/barn and there have been quite a few posts from him that have been super pure (I'll try to find them later). If he's scum, he's upped his game quite a bit.
Cantrip, I don't understand this line: "[vezok] Votes KK for not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing her." You wrote this last Night, after KCC flipped town, so why suspect bussing here?
Sorry, let me reformat:
[vezok] Votes KK for (all of) [not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing [KCC]].
Make more sense? I feel like if you had clicked on the link I provided, that wouldn't have been confusing...?
Killjoy, I don't really have time to respond to your VCA tonight, and weather is doing funky things to my schedule, so I may not be able to post much until Thursday ( ), so I'll respond when I can. In the meantime, just please make sure you're looking at things from multiple angles. I agree that from a VCA standpoint, I don't look so great, but VCA isn't foolproof.
I've been thinking a lot during the night about Cantrip. His stance before night was extremely weird and now with his post today it feels like he changed his mind on mislynching me and instead wants to focus on KJ and meg. It feels like scum testing the waters to see what he can mislynch.
Why was my stance before night "extremely weird"?
And as for trying to see what I can mislunch...Megiddo already said I had a convincing case against you, despite my conclusion. And I'm really mostly town reading you on one (rather strong) stance you took that I don't think scum!you would ever choose to take. And apparently that's not as convincing to others as it is to me. So...if I were looking for mislunches, voluntarily taking you out of the mix wouldn't be a very smart move. Yes, I could just be banking on being able to get Megiddo + KJ mislunched for the win, but I've already been pretty vocal about thinking KJ's town, so if I'm scum and Megiddo flips town, I'm going to have to "reassess" someone, which is a lot harder than just leaving my supposed perspective at "KJ likely town, let's lunch Megiddo and Vez".
Cantrip spent all of D1 voting for unknown Meg, was on scum as of 2.2, but then votes OsieMiko in 2.3, then isn't voting anyone except to come in and hammer Last. He never votes D3 though I recall him being out of town or something? Either way, it doesn't tell us much. I'd probably put it slightly leaning scum because the hammer on Last and early pull off of last onto a townie is something scum would do.
D3 started on a weekend, so I didn't really have a chance to analyze until Chris was already at L-1, and then Emiko hammered while I was posting my first real post of the Day (my VCA). That said, I don't think I had much, if any, strong reads on Rhand one way or the other all game. I planned to iso him D3, but never got the chance.
As for D1 and D2, I had my reasons for suspecting Megiddo D1, and then D2 I thought I had caught Emiko, so I voted him. When I realized my mistake, I thought Wisp was still at L-2 (he wasn't, I believe, because Vaimes had moved his vote to Rhand), which is why I said here that Wisp had plenty of votes and I wanted to examine KCC. Then others voted Wisp to L-1 and I hammered at the end of the Day waiting for Wisp to come back and answer questions. So...shrug? Like I said, I can understand why my votes don't clear me, but I don't think they condemn me, either.
Megiddo, D2 ended before you could answer my first question in this post. I still want to hear your response.
I've been thinking a lot during the night about Cantrip. His stance before night was extremely weird and now with his post today it feels like he changed his mind on mislynching me and instead wants to focus on KJ and meg. It feels like scum testing the waters to see what he can mislynch.
Why was my stance before night "extremely weird"?
And as for trying to see what I can mislunch...Megiddo already said I had a convincing case against you, despite my conclusion. And I'm really mostly town reading you on one (rather strong) stance you took that I don't think scum!you would ever choose to take. And apparently that's not as convincing to others as it is to me. So...if I were looking for mislunches, voluntarily taking you out of the mix wouldn't be a very smart move. Yes, I could just be banking on being able to get Megiddo + KJ mislunched for the win, but I've already been pretty vocal about thinking KJ's town, so if I'm scum and Megiddo flips town, I'm going to have to "reassess" someone, which is a lot harder than just leaving my supposed perspective at "KJ likely town, let's lunch Megiddo and Vez".
Can't go into details right now, but the fact that you signaled me out yesterday before night practically putting me on everyone's mind and then coming here today with pretty strong accussations of scumminess even if your final read on me was town makes it seem like you are teying to push me as a mislynch without committing to you so you can end game with meg and push him.
The post also seems eerily familiar to what Axelrod did at the end of Modern mafia where he explored every possibility for my and last's actions coming from town or scum. Thing is Axelrod was already confirmed town by then. Your posts feel like trying to imitate that, but instead of pushing discourse on all thr players you are heavily focusing on me.
I don't even think you believe that just a single post where I called town for a reasonable progression at that time is enough to sway your opinion of me when there's so much stacked against me. Me moving from Rhand in a critical time for that wagon is scummy. Me defending last and focusing on KCC is scummy. These are heavy things and a single post where I changed my mind on someone shouldn"t be enough to discourage a scumread on me.
So yeah, practically I just think you are full of ***** and trying to push mislynches without trying to invest in them.
vote cantrip
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Can't go into details right now, but the fact that you signaled me out yesterday before night practically putting me on everyone's mind and then coming here today with pretty strong accussations of scumminess even if your final read on me was town makes it seem like you are teying to push me as a mislynch without committing to you so you can end game with meg and push him.
The post also seems eerily familiar to what Axelrod did at the end of Modern mafia where he explored every possibility for my and last's actions coming from town or scum. Thing is Axelrod was already confirmed town by then. Your posts feel like trying to imitate that, but instead of pushing discourse on all thr players you are heavily focusing on me.
I can't blame you for thinking most of this; I could easily see me going down that paranoia path. Except for one thing: I started with you because I wanted to sort the possibility that Wisp fake peeked a buddy (plus you had the fewest posts, so it was faster than anyone else). I've already said I'm looking into the others. That aspect of your argument would hold a lot more weight if it were further into the day, but it's not.
Quote from Vez »
I don't even think you believe that just a single post where I called town for a reasonable progression at that time is enough to sway your opinion of me when there's so much stacked against me. Me moving from Rhand in a critical time for that wagon is scummy. Me defending last and focusing on KCC is scummy. These are heavy things and a single post where I changed my mind on someone shouldn"t be enough to discourage a scumread on me.
The things you mentioned don't look great, true, but are they strongly indicative of a scum mindset, or could they just as easily come from wrong town? I feel like they could come from town. Your reversal on me right when you were presented with what would have been a natural opening to attack (AND being the first opinion, not being in sway to thread reactions) is strongly indicative of town reassessing. Had KK claimed at that point? Can't remember. If he had, even moreso that scum!you would have wanted to pivot onto another target of opportunity, see if you could get a claim out of me.
Your reversal on me right when you were presented with what would have been a natural opening to attack (AND being the first opinion, not being in sway to thread reactions) is strongly indicative of town reassessing. Had KK claimed at that point? Can't remember. If he had, even moreso that scum!you would have wanted to pivot onto another target of opportunity, see if you could get a claim out of me.
Lol. You made that post D2. But Wisp was under serious scrutiny, Emiko was scumreading me, KCC had just said if Wisp didn't claim in their next post, she was going to vote them...yeah, that would have been an EXCELLENT time for scum to pivot onto me, and you went the exact opposite direction. If you're scum, you were either brilliantly pocketing me or you weren't reading the room very well. Still think you're town.
@cantrip i remember reading that question at the time and thinking:
1) was my original explanation not clear? if not I can elaborate. I know that sometimes I assume people understand where I'm coming from when in fact they don't. as always you can just ask!
2) But speaking of just asking, why would you frame this question in this way that I will now characterize as "threatening?" Specifically, by loading the question with an implied threat of "if you don't have a good explanation, I will say you are smearing me" you're... sort of smearing me, no?
To pre-empt the question, I will elaborate:
Instead of "So show me how I failed to read the room in 1299, please. Otherwise I'll assume you're baselessly smearing me."
Why not try: "What did you mean by that long-winded and kind of pointless anecdote? Hoe did I 'fail to read the room?'"
Also, to be explicit, the above response is meant to express suspicion about how you're handling your questioning of other players, namely me in this case.
Unrelated, I'm working on one part of my game analysis now... will report back.
unrelated 2, Surface level I'm kind of agreeing with Vezok's read/vote up there. Deserves a deep dive to find out if that holds up.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
i am pretty set on vezok scum world. it makes sense, and explains why last would try running the gambit (i said this already but the idea is that you make up for weak participation with a gambit). if we lynch anybody BUT Last D2 that puts him, and probably by extension Vezok, deep into endgame by itself i think. something for me to read back on here is what Last, Rhand, and Vezok (but also others) were doing after the CC. because they surely had to know that a CC was coming.
unless they didn’t think there would be one. 👀
so from here i’m going to probably not worry about analyzing Vezok too much, and think instead what the move is if that’s wrong. because i’ve been pretty wrong so far this game.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I almost want to lunch Meg just because vezok and Cantrip are acting so ******* weird if they're scum. Neither of them is taking the path of least resistance, even though they could ~likely get away with it. There's no clear cut lunch for toMorrow if we miss.
@cantrip i remember reading that question at the time and thinking:
1) was my original explanation not clear? if not I can elaborate. I know that sometimes I assume people understand where I'm coming from when in fact they don't. as always you can just ask!
2) But speaking of just asking, why would you frame this question in this way that I will now characterize as "threatening?" Specifically, by loading the question with an implied threat of "if you don't have a good explanation, I will say you are smearing me" you're... sort of smearing me, no?
To pre-empt the question, I will elaborate:
Instead of "So show me how I failed to read the room in 1299, please. Otherwise I'll assume you're baselessly smearing me."
Why not try: "What did you mean by that long-winded and kind of pointless anecdote? Hoe did I 'fail to read the room?'"
Megiddo, I felt like I had already politely asked for quite a bit of clarification, and it was like pulling teeth. Here's the series of posts (linking and quoting relevant parts because the posts are long):
failing to read the room meaning that when there’s one BIG HUGE TOPIC to address you start your post with a bunch of unrelated queries and only get around to looking at it about halfway through.
This felt like a backtrack from you, as if I'm addressing the topic, even if partway through my post, then I'm NOT failing to read the room, I'm just doing so on my own timetable, not on the one you feel is best. Note that you didn't specify what the BIG HUGE TOPIC was, or how I failed to address it. So in 1432 I tried to communicate that I didn't see how your concern was valid, given my playstyle:
Quote from Cantrip »
...taking into account that my standard posting pattern is quoting posts as I catch up and then responding (usually) in chronological order, how does this track?
re: your standard pattern - If I take that into account I'd probably just make fun of you like I did with a guy I used to work with who used to come back from vacation and respond to emails going up chronologically. So he'd respond to the beginning of an email chain, then ten minutes later he'd respond to a later email in that same chain. Then ten minutes after that he'd finally happen upon the end of the email chain where the whole thing was resolved, and he'd realize that he'd wasted a lot of his time (as well as everybody else's).
The point being, just like that guy, you look very silly when you don't take a peek at things holistically before you start to respond.
So you continue to belittle my methodology (still not clarifying how I failed to address the topic), but in a way that's entirely false, since I DON'T just spam-respond as emotion dictates; I consider ALL the posts in question ("holistically") before I respond. You providing this anecdote about your coworker (who I personally would have felt annoyed at for reasons similar to what you describe) felt like you were trying to downplay my process and paint me as unreliable (or at least "very silly"). By this point, I was a little frustrated and feeling attacked (both by you labeling me scum for something I didn't feel like you had adequately explained and on a quasi-personal level), so when I responded as I did in 1502, you're reading me correctly in that your responses had made me feel like you could be scum tossing out a vague accusation and refusing to clarify, even belittling your questioner in the process.
Now you're trying to frame my question to you as being needlessly hostile, but YOU were the one attacking me and not explaining it. And STILL not explaining it. Why won't you answer my question, and why does it feel like you're employing tactics designed to discredit me?
Vez, why move your vote off KK (without even mentioning them), especially if you thought it strongly likely that there was one scum in Shadow/KK and Shadow was "cleared" to you? Your reasons for suspecting KK were a lot stronger than the "there's something off about Rhand. He seems to be saying the right words, but his heart doesn't seem to be in it" you leveled at Rhand.
KK wagon was going nowhere. Rhand wagon was taking off and I wanted to vote there to see what happens more than I wanted to keep my vote on KK.
Regarding 1163: I can't seem to find the post I was responding too. I think it was Vaimes' big post from before and I somehow mixed them up in my head.
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Vez, you thought KK was scum, you don't like KK's response to Shadow's vote, but you're voting shadow because his vote is "egregious"? How is it egregious? It's not a read I necessarily agree with, but I can believe it's really a read Shadow makes.
What do YOU think of KK's 367/369?
I found this post which seems like a chainsaw on shadow. My intuition was right that shadow's vote came from scum. The fact that this is a small post also makes me think that it was only made to defend shadow.
Vaimes, your responses to Last around 595 feel a little excessive.
Rhand wagon is very weird and way fast. +town to Rhand, imo, but I also see some comments saying speed isn't necessarily indicative; I'll have to consider those.
KJ's 647 is +town for him.
652 Wisp going after Rhand wagon naked votes/being the one to actively pursue that avenue of attack is +town for Wisp.
657 KK using logic surrounding Wisp's play in Modern without knowing specifics is +scum.
666 Vezok: Scum!Wisp making this claim would be pretty freaking ballsy (which is why I'm leaning away from scum!Wisp), but I could see town!Wisp faking a N0 check to garner reactions, possibly. I'm treating his claim as real until he tells me otherwise. I guess only way I could see scum!Wisp doing this is if scum were told "you know there's no cop in this game" (or sussed that based on their roles).
Caught up to current, thoughts are still pretty scattered, but I've seen nothing from Megiddo that makes me feel like he's town, so fine staying on him. I'd switch to Kool to prevent a no lunch. Not interested in Rhand.
Thread feels...angsty. I know we're trying to bump each other off and all, but...maybe tone it down a little?
Ask questions to get me re-engaged. Sorry I was afk so long. I should be able to participate regularly through Day end.
Here we have a post where Cantrip defends both dead scum. I really don't like the first line where he is chainsaw defending wisp again.
Also cantrip has placed no votes except his RVS on tom and continues not to vote at all for day 1.
Day 2 starts with a vote on Wisp for a dumb post which is pretty weird considering he was defending and hard townreading last.
On another note, I think it's highly likely that both Vezok and Emiko are town. Obviously one of them is, but...if Vezok and Wisp are buddies and Wisp says Vezok is town and Vez flips scum, then Wisp is immediately outted. Same with Emiko and KCC (maybe to a lesser degree because the unknown risk of a vig is already eliminated?). So Vez and Emiko are vaulted to the top of my town list.
I think that puts me currently at:
Emiko/Vez
KCC
Killjoy
Vaimes
Rhand/Megiddo
Wisp
I neglected to unvote Emiko last post, so
Unvote
Wisp already has plenty of votes, and I want to review KCC first, regardless.
Somehow Rhand and wisp moved from town to heavily being scumread. This is especially interesting as Cantrip defends Wisp all day and thinks his claim is probably better than KCC's.
The scum probably saw the writing on the wall and wanted to put a ton of distance between them.
Cantrip ends the day with a hammer on wisp. Seems suspicious to wait so long when he could've just hammered before. Probably hoping for some second wind as he still left the door open for a KCC vote.
This is about all I found in my reread. Another aspect I've seen is that Cantrip spends a lot of time on talking to people with the exception of Rhand and Wisp which are asked way less questions than others.
I can't say that this reread makes me think Cantrip is 100% scum,but it strengthened my conviction.
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After the old lady had passed out, you started thinking about how hot it actually is in the backstage. To cool down, you head back to green room and decide to watch others perform via television while you enjoy the AC there.
(Before you ask, yes, those are official lyrics.)
Cantripmancer (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (4): Cantripmancer, Vaimes, Killjoy, Megiddo
V/LA: -
With 5 alive, it’s 3 to lynch. Deadline is on November 3rd.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
aside from mark zuckerberg being irl scum/lizard man the reason i was bringing it up was not about your specific methodology but about what your post suggested to me was your main focus at the time.
so, the “big huge thing” was obviously the counterclaim situation. that was important enough to (temporarily, at least) shift focus in the game thread for me, and i believe for others.
your post kind of just got around to it about halfway through.
it’s sort of a “missing the game flow” question for me where somebody who’s not informed would probably immediately snap to trying to sort that puzzle out, but somebody who already knows the answer might not feel the same urgency.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also nobody posted anything while I was available and then instead posted a ton of things when I was doing other stuff. I know I haven't been pulling my weight. It was mostly because Last townfirmed me, but apparently that was just a gambit.
On one hand I'm kinda fine with getting lynched tomorrow and then you guys figuring out LyLo by yourselves, but on the other hand, I kinda want to put it in the work and not just die.
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I lied. I had a sudden spur of motivation and went back and checked why I moved. Rhand was being inactive and I didn't really have that much conviction in the read. tom on the other hand was being really unfair to silver and hounding him to make him a mislynch, . That didn't sit well with me and I wanted to push a tom wagon. In hindsight it was just a town versus town fight and I misinterpreted tom's attacks as scum trying to lynch a good player on day 1.
And another smaller point, it took 12 hours before Rhand posted again after I moved my vote from him to tom. My jump to KK was from tom and not from Rhand.
So yeah, not really sure how to feel about this misrep. I expect town Cantrip to have checked a bit more thoroughly. This just feels like a veiled attack on me, because I'm the easy mislynch.
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Not much had time passed since you found Verka's room, costume and props destroyed and once again people are craving for blood. All this fighting here had already numbed your emotions and you just stand by and watch as the guards are coming once again...
Sir Chris (4): Vaimes, Megiddo, vezokpiraka, EmikoYuriemoto
Not Voting (3): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, Killjoy
V/LA: -
That's a lynch! Stand by for end of day scene!
This time the focus was on a Romanian group, lead by a person who seems to be Dracula (or one of this relatives). Apparently someone had said something rude about Romanian stereotypes and that had been enough to trigger the fight. And besides that all, this other guy kinda reminds you about Verka. Both had foil and glitter in their costumes and this one was much less flashy. Maybe that's the reason why he would've wanted to get rid of your beloved Verka...?
You watched as the guards carried the whole Romanian crew away and out of the premises. Even though they are gone, their voices still haunt your mind. You take a small shot from your trusted bottle and hope it'll all go away soon.
Sir Chris has been lynched! They were:
Alignment: Mafia
Role: Daychat Enabler
Song: It's My Life
Performed by: Cezar
Country: Romania
"It's my life and I know it's not forever
It's my life and I'll share it all with you
It's my life, we were meant to be together"
Ah, Eurovision. Once again the time to show of your country's culture and great performances. And what else would be more fitting for Romania than a guy dressed up as a vampire, covered in glitter and singing opera in falsetto? As we all know, that's totes 100 % fitting representation of whole Romania!
While you didn't score especially high back in 2013, you still left an impression on people with your wacky performance, dividing people into two camps: those who think it was very clever and great performance and those who think it was just a dull, tasteless attempt at wackiness.
Still, there's no denying that you won't leave anyone without an impression. People will either hate or love you, there's no in-between. And now that you have allied yourself with few other performers with less noble intentions, this is a perfect chance for you to rise your approval ratings by only sparing those who see you and your performance in positive light...
Mob of Vampires (passive): As long as you are alive, you and rest of the mafia team may communicate anytime with some help from your personal mob of vampires.
You win when you have taken the control over this show!
With yet another perpetrator removed from the premises, you finally start sighing in relief. Maybe this incident will have a happy ending after all...
It's now Night 3. Day 4 will start in ~24 hours.
Soon after you had removed Dracula from the premises, an elderly lady started complaining about how she's no longer feeling her legs and started shaking uncontrollably. You helped her sit down, gave her something non-alcoholic to drink, but her condition didn't seem to improve at all despite your efforts. After thinking about it for a moment, you let the guards know who called the paramedic team and carried the old lady away.
You heard the guards muttering something about the lady "being too old to be able handle all this stress and drama in the backstage" before the beeping of your social media feed interrupted you.
EmikoYuriemoto has been found dead! They were:
Alignment: Town
Role: Vanilla
Song: Refrain
Performed by: Lys Assia
Country: Switzerland
"But only and without spring
I run in vain, in the woods, the fields
Telling me to remember you, our love of another time"
Look at all these youngsters and their attempts at winning the Eurovision. You've been at this business even before the others were even born! Back in your day, you'd have to rely purely on your skills and song and nothing else. No dancing, no pyrotechnics, nothing. And as 1956 proved, you know how to sing.
Now, as the first and original winner of Eurovision, you have decided to share your wisdom and experience with those youngsters, in hopes that one day they will be able to stand by you as an equal. And while you are at it, get rid of those horrendous performances attempting to ruin this show. Back in your day, they wouldn't have been let inside the building, not to mention participating in the competition. Oh, how times have changed.
Still, with grace and elegance, it should a piece of cake for you. Quickly get rid of that horrible cacophony of sounds, and they your lovely voice once again can charm the people all over the world!
You have no abilities.
You win when all the hostile performances have been dropped out of the competition!
With yet another participant gone, the backstage is starting to feel empty. Luckily, you know it won't take long until all of this is over.
It's now Day 4. With 5 alive, it’s 3 to lynch. Deadline is on November 3rd.
RVS's Shadow "because he's a wolf". Mild questions Vaimes. Unvotes saying RVS voting doesn't matter. Votes KK for not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing her.
A few posts later, votes Shadow for Shadow's attack on KK, but still sees KK as scummy. T/S List with Rhand at null and Shadow at "pretty scummy" with KK, but no one "Scum".
Votes KK for KK's attack on Silver, says "Shadow can wait". Shadow asks how likely it is that he (Shadow) and KK are scum together, and Vez says it's 10% possible they're scum together, 30% possible they're town together, but she thinks at least one of them is scum.
Her next post is after Wisp claims, and Vez says that Shadow's choices make more sense if Shadow knew Vez was town, Vez towns Wisp, then vaguely alludes to something about Rhand being off and leaves KK to vote Rhand (highest wagon with 3 votes: Tom, Vaimes, Wisp). No mention of KK.
Vez, why move your vote off KK (without even mentioning them), especially if you thought it strongly likely that there was one scum in Shadow/KK and Shadow was "cleared" to you? Your reasons for suspecting KK were a lot stronger than the "there's something off about Rhand. He seems to be saying the right words, but his heart doesn't seem to be in it" you leveled at Rhand.
Vez pours some wine regarding reasons that Wisp would have faked a peek on Vez. Then moves votes from Rhand to Tom for misrepping people for no reason.
Vez then defends Rhand's lack of activity and finds KK scummy for pressuring Rhand, and then turns that into a vote on KK for being "extremely scummy all day with horrible pushes".
This post includes what could be hyper-awareness on the state of the game concerning Rhand, but I guess Vez could have just checked that before posting, too. Next few posts are positions of certainty on KK without a lot of reason to back them up. Mentions Tom could be scum, Megs could be scum but less than before, Vez isn't feeling me.
Day 2: She starts out with suspicion on Megs and me, with me more likely to have shot Tom, then votes me in her next post. Mentions Emiko seemed town D1 but Vez doesn't like her vote on Wisp. Wisp asks why Emiko was town and Vez gives reasons. Vez gives minor scum equity to Vaimes.
Vez, who were you responding to in 1163? I'm not sure I see anyone tying me to KCC or Rhand?
This is one of the biggest reasons I was townreading Vez independent of Wisp's claim. At this point, Vez had been poking and prodding at me all game, which could have been sincere or could have been scum testing the waters. I made that poor attack on Emiko, realized my mistake, posted the apology and explanation of my thought process, and Vez (without anyone else weighing in) gives me town points for it. I just...can't imagine scum!Vez not at least throwing up an IGMEOY or something. It wouldn't have cost him anything to express at least a little doubt or suspicion. If she had been poking for an opening, this would be the time to ATTACK me, not reverse course. Unless maybe she really thought my post was going to garner strong townreads and wanted to get out in front of that...but she would presumably know that her post saying it's townie would influence later posts...so...I almost feel like stopping my review here and just townslotting Vez. If she's scum, she played this exchange really well.
Regardless, Vez pivots onto Meg in the same post. Then says Wisp is still towny, despite some loss in town equity. Doubts KCC's claim. Several post's worth of doubt.
Votes KCC, unvotes for the extension, then pushes for one of the cops to be lunched and chooses KCC. Says if Wisp flips scum, she's looking looking at me/Megiddo but also at Chris no matter what Wisp's flip. This also feels unlikely to come from a Wisp/Chris buddy.
Last post of D2 is saying she's at 5% that Wisp could be scum. And this is at a point where Wisp is almost certainly the lunch.
D3 jumps on the Chris wagon (after Vaimes and Megiddo). Could be just trying to get out in front of this one?
I don't know....I think I'm leaning toward Vez just being a misguided townie. I could put a case together that fairly strongly pointed to her being scum, I think, but I just trip over 1217 every time I read it. Really feels like town reassessing/I can't find scum motivation for going that route. I mean...SUUUUUUPER long-game "I've gotta get Cantrip in my pocket in case we're in lylo together" or something, but... Plus, I think it's really unlikely that Wisp risks a fake peek on a buddy. Plus I don't think Vez would agree to such a plan, and if Wisp just blazed in with that plan without running it by his buddies, I think I'd hear some vitriol from Vez, and I don't see that, either. Nope, I think I'm going with town!Vez.
If anyone wants to fact check me on 1217: iso Vez, look at the numerous mentions/digs against me, then read 1217 as though you're town!me. Is it possible that comes from scum!Vez?
I'm writing this a few hours before Day opens with the assumption that EmikOsie (or maybe Vaimes) will be dead. With that in mind, I'm here:
EmikOsie (Confirmed Town)
Vaimes (Pushed fairly hard on Wisp D2, was THE primary on Rhand/Chris D3; scum!Vaimes here deserves the win, townslotted)
Vez (See above)
Killjoy (Pure posts in general, but I will review before the Day is out)
Megiddo (Has been a potential candidate in my mind all game, now most likely candidate by default, so I'll look at his posts next)
you made a great case for vez scum there; even the post you think is +town doesn’t really feel that strong to me
i’ll accept being the lynch Today for POE purposes but absolutely not “by default.” make a case. i’ll talk through it.
I kind of want KJ to justify his Rhand read. I asked and he never answered. Feel like his scumread on me is/was equally as baseless as the one Rhand was pushing.
No stone will be left unturned.
Since my Rhand meta is apparently outdated, there's no point in holding it back now. Town!Rhand doesn't know who the scum are. Town!Rhand (usually) has decent progression on people and (not usually, pretty much always) asks questions that he cares about. Town!Rhand makes similar posts to 549. Scum!Rhand doesn't care about his questions, has fake progression overall.
The problem with reading Rhand based on typical mafia tells is he makes a lot of them as town. I've tried that, it doesn't work for me. So I tried this, and it was working until now. So, thats why I read Rhand that way. I will note that I did notice/eyebrowed (but didn't really put too much stock into that because I thought my meta was much stronger than it was.
Now, like I said that post I quoted there was the only thing I had noted as people with scum equity together, so I was getting ready to at least reanalyze Rhand. Which is why I was saying that we should give Chris a chance to speak. I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to see if he ALSO didn't question my read on him. You'll notice in my post following his replace I said I had a townread on him with for no reason or whatever... I wanted to see his reaction to that. But then Day ended.
Do you have any questions for me about my scumread of you from earlier? I thought I explained that. (I think that might have been wrong now, but it was for sure there at one point.)
I have no questions for you.
You may begin finding the last mafia.
1.1 (Mostly RVS)
KittyCupcake (2): Silvercrys3467, Koolkoal
Vaimes (2): KittyCupcake, tomsloger
tomsloger (2): Cantripmancer, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (1): Sir Chris
Sir Chris (1): Killjoy
Koolkoal (1): Megiddo
Killjoy (1): EmikoYuriemoto
Silvercrys3467 (1): Vaimes
Lastwhisper (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (0): -
1.2
Megiddo (4): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, KittyCupcake, Silvercrys3467
Koolkoal (3): Megiddo, Lastwhisper, vezokpiraka
Silvercrys3467 (2): tomsloger, Koolkoal
KittyCupcake (1): EmikoYuriemoto
vezokpiraka (1): Vaimes
Not Voting (0): Killjoy
1.3
Sir Chris (3): tomsloger, Vaimes, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (2): Cantripmancer, KittyCupcake
tomsloger (2): Killjoy, Silvercrys3467
Koolkoal (1): vezokpiraka
Silvercrys3467 (1): Megiddo
Killjoy (1): EmikoYuriemoto
Not Voting (2): Koolkoal, Sir Chris
1.4
Sir Chris (4): tomsloger, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Megiddo
Megiddo (3): Cantripmancer, KittyCupcake, Lastwhisper
tomsloger (2): Killjoy, Silvercrys3467
Killjoy (1): EmikoYuriemoto
Vaimes (1): Sir Chris
Not Voting (1): Koolkoal
1.5
Sir Chris (4): Vaimes, Megiddo, tomsloger, Koolkoal
Megiddo (4): Cantripmancer, KittyCupcake, Lastwhisper, Silvercrys3467
Koolkoal (2): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
tomsloger (1): Killjoy
Lastwhisper (1): EmikoYuriemoto
Not Voting (0): -
1.6
Koolkoal (4): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris, KittyCupcake, EmikoYuriemoto
Megiddo (3): Cantripmancer, Lastwhisper, Silvercrys3467
Sir Chris (2): Megiddo, Koolkoal
tomsloger (1): Killjoy
Not Voting (2): tomsloger, Vaimes
1.7
Koolkoal (4): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris, KittyCupcake, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (2): Cantripmancer, Killjoy
tomsloger (1): Silvercrys3467
Not Voting (5): tomsloger, Vaimes, Koolkoal, EmikoYuriemoto, Megiddo
1.8
Koolkoal (4): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris, KittyCupcake, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (3): Cantripmancer, Killjoy, Vaimes
Cantripmancer (2): tomsloger, Megiddo
tomsloger (1): Silvercrys3467
Not Voting (2): Koolkoal, EmikoYuriemoto
1.9
Koolkoal (4): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris, KittyCupcake, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (3): Cantripmancer, Killjoy, Vaimes
Cantripmancer (3): tomsloger, Megiddo, EmikoYuriemoto
tomsloger (1): Silvercrys3467
Not Voting (1): Koolkoal
1.10 (Final D1)
Koolkoal (7): vezokpiraka, Sir Chris, KittyCupcake, Lastwhisper, Koolkoal, Vaimes, tomsloger
Megiddo (2): Cantripmancer, Killjoy
Cantripmancer (2): EmikoYuriemotol, Silvercrys3467
Not Voting (1): Megiddo
2.1
Vaimes (2): Lastwhisper, Sir Chris
Sir Chris (1): Vaimes
Lastwhisper (1): EmikoYuriemoto
Cantripmancer (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (4): Cantripmancer, Killjoy, Megiddo, KittyCupcake
2.2
Vaimes (2): Lastwhisper, Sir Chris
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, Cantripmancer
Sir Chris (1): Vaimes
Cantripmancer (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (3): Killjoy, Megiddo, KittyCupcake
2.3
Lastwhisper (3): EmikoYuriemoto, Vaimes, KittyCupcake
Vaimes (2): Lastwhisper, Sir Chris
EmikoYuriemoto (1): Cantripmancer
Megiddo (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (2): Killjoy, Megiddo
2.4
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake
Vaimes (1): Sir Chris
Megiddo (1): vezokpiraka
Sir Chris (1): Vaimes
Not Voting (4): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer
2.5
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
2.6
Lastwhisper (2): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake
Not Voting (7): Killjoy, Megiddo, Lastwhisper, Cantripmancer, Vaimes, vezokpiraka, Sir Chris
2.7
Lastwhisper (3): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupcake, Vaimes
Megiddo (2): Killjoy, Sir Chris
KittyCupcake (2): vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper
Not Voting (2): Megiddo, Cantripmancer
2.8 (Final D2)
Lastwhisper (5): EmikoYuriemoto, KittyCupCake, Vaimes, Killjoy, Cantripmancer
KittyCupCake (2): vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper
Megiddo (1): Sir Chris
Not Voting (1): Megiddo
3.1
Sir Chris (3): Vaimes, Megiddo, vezokpiraka
Not Voting (4): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, Killjoy, EmikoYuriemoto
3.2 (Final D3)
Sir Chris (4): Vaimes, Megiddo, vezokpiraka, EmikoYuriemoto
Not Voting (3): Sir Chris, Cantripmancer, Killjoy
Ok. So.
Possible scum: Vaimes, Cantrip, Meg, Vezok.
I don't think Vaimes is scum with RhandChris and Last due to the votecounts 2.1-2.3. Both scum voting their only buddy despite him not really being super widely scumread (like, if this was Meg I'd maybe have a different conclusion here) just seems like it's going against their wincon. I'm also noting that Vaimes voting record is decent (much better than his recent scumgame whos name I always forget where Tom caught him and I was like "his voting sucks but behaviorally he's town) since he spent a lot of D1 on RhandChris. It's also worth noting that I don't think Vaimes really NEEDED to vote on KK to get the kill there. If he was scum I'd have expected him to stay away and let Meg come in and hammer instead.
Also actually he pretty much spent D2 voting all the scum we know about now.
Vaimes
Cantrip spent all of D1 voting for unknown Meg, was on scum as of 2.2, but then votes OsieMiko in 2.3, then isn't voting anyone except to come in and hammer Last. He never votes D3 though I recall him being out of town or something? Either way, it doesn't tell us much. I'd probably put it slightly leaning scum because the hammer on Last and early pull off of last onto a townie is something scum would do.
Cantrip
Meg is weird. So, there was this whole hullaballoo with wagons and counterwagons on D1. Given that Rhand was town (at the time), I was convinced that meant that Meg was counter to BOTH Rhand and KK. BUT NOW Rhand is scum and... that makes his wagon less likely to be a scum one. From 1.3 to 1.6, Megs and Chris are basically equal... and there's no real push away from that gamestate by scum. Which is weird if two scum are top wagons. LastSlot was even voting Meg at this time. (I also noticed that Megs was on Rhandslot all that time, so I checked, he was V/LA during that time, so it's not a thing). He never votes D2, but scumChrisRhand does vote for him. So he could be a counter to the Last wagon that Day. The vote in D3 was ok, didn't feel super like he was trying to appease Vaimes I don't think.
He's PROBABLY town? Less likely than Vaimes, more likely than Cantrip.
Meg
Looking at D1, and the KK lynch, I feel like scum piling on to KK with vez starting it and the other two joining later is probably not a thing. Her voting isn't the best on D2, with her voting Cantrip+Meg (unknowns) + Kitty (town), though Last being on Kitty with heris a point in her favor. The D3 vote is fine, but unremarkable. She's just /barning Vaimes and voting.
Could be scum, but probably town.
Vez
In order of likelihood I would say Cantrip > Vez >>> Meg
Worth a note: Neither Cantrip nor Vez have been voted by known scum.
This is all purely based on votes btw. Like, I would say Vez gets some credit because Last probably doesn't peek his buddy. So probably Cantrip >> Vez >>>> Meg taking that into account.
I think I probably also did that thing I do sometimes where I give him too much credit due to activity.
But let's actually take at least a week to reread and chat.
Cantrip, I don't understand this line: "[vezok] Votes KK for not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing her." You wrote this last Night, after KCC flipped town, so why suspect bussing here?
Hm.
Guess I have some homework to do. Maybe if I squeeze my eyes hard enough, I'll be able to hear tom yelling at me from deadchat to lunch Cantrip.
I have a reread planned, though idk if I'll do it because it's 1600 posts. Maybe I'll let it take a few days.
I don't wanna though.
If I split it up it maybe won't be bad.
I also need to do a reread, but I need to get to my job. I'll do it after.
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The "by default" was moreso "plus I have reasons for town reading everyone else". And I said I'd turn my attention to you/your posts next.
/barn and there have been quite a few posts from him that have been super pure (I'll try to find them later). If he's scum, he's upped his game quite a bit.
Sorry, let me reformat:
[vezok] Votes KK for (all of) [not committing, keeping KCC open as a lunch option, but also maybe bussing [KCC]].
Make more sense? I feel like if you had clicked on the link I provided, that wouldn't have been confusing...?
Killjoy, I don't really have time to respond to your VCA tonight, and weather is doing funky things to my schedule, so I may not be able to post much until Thursday ( ), so I'll respond when I can. In the meantime, just please make sure you're looking at things from multiple angles. I agree that from a VCA standpoint, I don't look so great, but VCA isn't foolproof.
And as for trying to see what I can mislunch...Megiddo already said I had a convincing case against you, despite my conclusion. And I'm really mostly town reading you on one (rather strong) stance you took that I don't think scum!you would ever choose to take. And apparently that's not as convincing to others as it is to me. So...if I were looking for mislunches, voluntarily taking you out of the mix wouldn't be a very smart move. Yes, I could just be banking on being able to get Megiddo + KJ mislunched for the win, but I've already been pretty vocal about thinking KJ's town, so if I'm scum and Megiddo flips town, I'm going to have to "reassess" someone, which is a lot harder than just leaving my supposed perspective at "KJ likely town, let's lunch Megiddo and Vez".
D3 started on a weekend, so I didn't really have a chance to analyze until Chris was already at L-1, and then Emiko hammered while I was posting my first real post of the Day (my VCA). That said, I don't think I had much, if any, strong reads on Rhand one way or the other all game. I planned to iso him D3, but never got the chance.
As for D1 and D2, I had my reasons for suspecting Megiddo D1, and then D2 I thought I had caught Emiko, so I voted him. When I realized my mistake, I thought Wisp was still at L-2 (he wasn't, I believe, because Vaimes had moved his vote to Rhand), which is why I said here that Wisp had plenty of votes and I wanted to examine KCC. Then others voted Wisp to L-1 and I hammered at the end of the Day waiting for Wisp to come back and answer questions. So...shrug? Like I said, I can understand why my votes don't clear me, but I don't think they condemn me, either.
Megiddo, D2 ended before you could answer my first question in this post. I still want to hear your response.
Can't go into details right now, but the fact that you signaled me out yesterday before night practically putting me on everyone's mind and then coming here today with pretty strong accussations of scumminess even if your final read on me was town makes it seem like you are teying to push me as a mislynch without committing to you so you can end game with meg and push him.
The post also seems eerily familiar to what Axelrod did at the end of Modern mafia where he explored every possibility for my and last's actions coming from town or scum. Thing is Axelrod was already confirmed town by then. Your posts feel like trying to imitate that, but instead of pushing discourse on all thr players you are heavily focusing on me.
I don't even think you believe that just a single post where I called town for a reasonable progression at that time is enough to sway your opinion of me when there's so much stacked against me. Me moving from Rhand in a critical time for that wagon is scummy. Me defending last and focusing on KCC is scummy. These are heavy things and a single post where I changed my mind on someone shouldn"t be enough to discourage a scumread on me.
So yeah, practically I just think you are full of ***** and trying to push mislynches without trying to invest in them.
vote cantrip
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I’ll probably be around mostly at night EST.
The things you mentioned don't look great, true, but are they strongly indicative of a scum mindset, or could they just as easily come from wrong town? I feel like they could come from town. Your reversal on me right when you were presented with what would have been a natural opening to attack (AND being the first opinion, not being in sway to thread reactions) is strongly indicative of town reassessing. Had KK claimed at that point? Can't remember. If he had, even moreso that scum!you would have wanted to pivot onto another target of opportunity, see if you could get a claim out of me.
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1) was my original explanation not clear? if not I can elaborate. I know that sometimes I assume people understand where I'm coming from when in fact they don't. as always you can just ask!
2) But speaking of just asking, why would you frame this question in this way that I will now characterize as "threatening?" Specifically, by loading the question with an implied threat of "if you don't have a good explanation, I will say you are smearing me" you're... sort of smearing me, no?
To pre-empt the question, I will elaborate:
Instead of "So show me how I failed to read the room in 1299, please. Otherwise I'll assume you're baselessly smearing me."
Why not try: "What did you mean by that long-winded and kind of pointless anecdote? Hoe did I 'fail to read the room?'"
Also, to be explicit, the above response is meant to express suspicion about how you're handling your questioning of other players, namely me in this case.
Unrelated, I'm working on one part of my game analysis now... will report back.
unrelated 2, Surface level I'm kind of agreeing with Vezok's read/vote up there. Deserves a deep dive to find out if that holds up.
i am pretty set on vezok scum world. it makes sense, and explains why last would try running the gambit (i said this already but the idea is that you make up for weak participation with a gambit). if we lynch anybody BUT Last D2 that puts him, and probably by extension Vezok, deep into endgame by itself i think. something for me to read back on here is what Last, Rhand, and Vezok (but also others) were doing after the CC. because they surely had to know that a CC was coming.
unless they didn’t think there would be one. 👀
so from here i’m going to probably not worry about analyzing Vezok too much, and think instead what the move is if that’s wrong. because i’ve been pretty wrong so far this game.
I'm talking to Vezok, Cantrip, Meg. I'd prefer this not be a "lynch the least scummy person of the three" day.
Megiddo, I felt like I had already politely asked for quite a bit of clarification, and it was like pulling teeth. Here's the series of posts (linking and quoting relevant parts because the posts are long):
1323: You said my 1299 So you made an accusation ("failing to read the room") that resulted in a "could be scum" read on me. In 1331 I said Your response in 1344 was This felt like a backtrack from you, as if I'm addressing the topic, even if partway through my post, then I'm NOT failing to read the room, I'm just doing so on my own timetable, not on the one you feel is best. Note that you didn't specify what the BIG HUGE TOPIC was, or how I failed to address it. So in 1432 I tried to communicate that I didn't see how your concern was valid, given my playstyle: Your response in 1442 was So you continue to belittle my methodology (still not clarifying how I failed to address the topic), but in a way that's entirely false, since I DON'T just spam-respond as emotion dictates; I consider ALL the posts in question ("holistically") before I respond. You providing this anecdote about your coworker (who I personally would have felt annoyed at for reasons similar to what you describe) felt like you were trying to downplay my process and paint me as unreliable (or at least "very silly"). By this point, I was a little frustrated and feeling attacked (both by you labeling me scum for something I didn't feel like you had adequately explained and on a quasi-personal level), so when I responded as I did in 1502, you're reading me correctly in that your responses had made me feel like you could be scum tossing out a vague accusation and refusing to clarify, even belittling your questioner in the process.
Now you're trying to frame my question to you as being needlessly hostile, but YOU were the one attacking me and not explaining it. And STILL not explaining it. Why won't you answer my question, and why does it feel like you're employing tactics designed to discredit me?
KK wagon was going nowhere. Rhand wagon was taking off and I wanted to vote there to see what happens more than I wanted to keep my vote on KK.
Regarding 1163: I can't seem to find the post I was responding too. I think it was Vaimes' big post from before and I somehow mixed them up in my head.
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I found this post which seems like a chainsaw on shadow. My intuition was right that shadow's vote came from scum. The fact that this is a small post also makes me think that it was only made to defend shadow.
Here we have a post where Cantrip defends both dead scum. I really don't like the first line where he is chainsaw defending wisp again.
Also cantrip has placed no votes except his RVS on tom and continues not to vote at all for day 1.
Day 2 starts with a vote on Wisp for a dumb post which is pretty weird considering he was defending and hard townreading last.
The next post is a vote on emiko so the first post is distancing.
Somehow Rhand and wisp moved from town to heavily being scumread. This is especially interesting as Cantrip defends Wisp all day and thinks his claim is probably better than KCC's.
The scum probably saw the writing on the wall and wanted to put a ton of distance between them.
Cantrip ends the day with a hammer on wisp. Seems suspicious to wait so long when he could've just hammered before. Probably hoping for some second wind as he still left the door open for a KCC vote.
This is about all I found in my reread. Another aspect I've seen is that Cantrip spends a lot of time on talking to people with the exception of Rhand and Wisp which are asked way less questions than others.
I can't say that this reread makes me think Cantrip is 100% scum,but it strengthened my conviction.
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After the old lady had passed out, you started thinking about how hot it actually is in the backstage. To cool down, you head back to green room and decide to watch others perform via television while you enjoy the AC there.
(Before you ask, yes, those are official lyrics.)
Cantripmancer (1): vezokpiraka
Not Voting (4): Cantripmancer, Vaimes, Killjoy, Megiddo
V/LA: -
With 5 alive, it’s 3 to lynch. Deadline is on November 3rd.
aside from mark zuckerberg being irl scum/lizard man the reason i was bringing it up was not about your specific methodology but about what your post suggested to me was your main focus at the time.
so, the “big huge thing” was obviously the counterclaim situation. that was important enough to (temporarily, at least) shift focus in the game thread for me, and i believe for others.
your post kind of just got around to it about halfway through.
it’s sort of a “missing the game flow” question for me where somebody who’s not informed would probably immediately snap to trying to sort that puzzle out, but somebody who already knows the answer might not feel the same urgency.