Grape: You don't appear to have answered my question about Vez. Why do YOU think he's really town?
Shadow: Did you ever follow up on that question you asked me about Chris's beeboy defense? I asked you what you were referring to but you never answered.
I actually don't want to lynch Az today.
I'm still into a Shadow lynch.
I want to reread Grape before deadline. Actually I wanna reread the game before deadline. I might make it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Grape: You don't appear to have answered my question about Vez. Why do YOU think he's really town?
Sorry been distracted. Think I missed another question as well.
I think Vez is town because of the claim coming freely as if it were a miller claim and his pointedness in what I see as wrong directions which fits with our history.
Possibly, but Vezok isn't a JoaT for starters and secondly why would a scum Jack have a cop scan?
Yes I am a JOAT. Stop misrrepping my role. I get an ability at the end of the day and get to use it. I don't target a person and then something random happens to them. I just don't have control over which ability I get. While it's not the same as having a pool of abilities and choosing from it, it's still very similar in that I have a pool of abilities and get one every night.
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I am not trying to misrep but guy who can pick from 3 abilities after a time delay and guy who gets a random ability but only after he murders a member of town are not in fact the same role, you can call it whatever you like.
Actually why do you get an ability for causing a town death? You did say you had to be on the lynch, right?
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Actually why do you get an ability for causing a town death? You did say you had to be on the lynch, right?
Proph seems a bit preoccupied at the moment, but we have similar design philosophies, so I can try fielding this for him. If I had designed this role, it would be to reduce swinginess; a mislynch hurts the town, but then there's an extra ability to help. The other reason might be to introduce some tension in the town, but with Vez's description, it doesn't sound like the role is really powerful enough for that to be Prophs motivation.
Simply put our roles are not compatible with each other. All of his abilities are way better than all of my abilities with one exception where my ability might be on par with his. He gets to choose his effects, I get one random. His drawback is that the mod announces in thread that his role is powered up and he is only active starting with night 2, while my drawback is that I have to be on the lynch wagon. And that's not everything. I only get an ability if the lynched person is town. This is mostly irrelevant as I'd still try to be on every lynch, but it's another drawback of my role.
That threw me at first, but I still think vezok is almost certainly town due to claim + behavior. His defiance toward Sir Chris over the nature of his role further solidifies that read.
Intent at the host really, which is why I am against this confirmation bias of "well I am jack too so he is lying."
Proph clearly has had fun with the roles in this game.
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Cantripmancer - Did I say something wrong? You made a gaffe. An error. I attach no insult or demeaning behind that, but rather point out what has happened. In fact it is in your favor that I think you just messed up rather than scum trying to manipulate towards conclusion like I thought at first glance. Knowing when someone has been poor form on accident versus an intentional line of thought is important for understanding motives. You don't have to feel bad about anything, I have almost never used /barn in my life if it makes you feel better.
I identified what I found frustrating/offensive in the post I made. You frequently seem to go out of your way to insert digs on players you're addressing/discussing, and every time you do so, I can't help but wonder if you're scum smearing mud around. If you're town, know that it's making you harder to read/figure out. If you're scum, know that it isn't doing you any favors, either.
roleblock/rolecop, kill whatever, [any number of non cop powers here that looks less weird]
KCC addressed most of this, but cop is THE quintessential town role that is the easiest path to gaining confirmed alignment info. It's the role most likely to make town hesitate to follow through on a lunch.
This is the post I was picking on Syrenz/LW to tell me what was wrong with it.
Here, Syrenz/LW slot entertains two opposed and contrary ideas at the same time, and then decides to choose one of them, on the spot. This is a thing scum tend to do, because they are having to decide how to view a post, rather than having an immediate organic reaction to it, and they tend to use strong language with regard to both alternatives while townies use their strong language on only the alternative they favor.
Syrenz himself only had 4 other posts, and nothing in the other three popped to me. Gonna post this short one, then see if my formatting"s working as intended before dreadnoughting. [/quote]I know--from my own mindset this game, even--that it"s not uncommon for this "on the one hand this, but on the other that" mindset to come from town, and Syrenz takes a stance on where he ends up in his thought process.
Az I know you are lying about a certain part of your claim. I think you did it for town reasons but now is the time to come clean about what you lied about. If you don't I can't keep defending you.
Not all details of ability #2 are either disclosed or accurate. Good enough?
Yes, ty
...I am at a loss for words. I can't even right now.
Simply put our roles are not compatible with each other. All of his abilities are way better than all of my abilities with one exception where my ability might be on par with his. He gets to choose his effects, I get one random. His drawback is that the mod announces in thread that his role is powered up and he is only active starting with night 2, while my drawback is that I have to be on the lynch wagon. And that's not everything. I only get an ability if the lynched person is town. This is mostly irrelevant as I'd still try to be on every lynch, but it's another drawback of my role.
That threw me at first, but I still think vezok is almost certainly town due to claim + behavior. His defiance toward Sir Chris over the nature of his role further solidifies that read.
Running out of steam/time here for tonight. I don't suppose anyone will just take my word for it if I tell you that KJ is hard town, tonally, also?
So far I'm at:
Town
Grapefruit
Dkingsland - numerous strong townie attitude posts.
Killjoy – strong tonally
Vez - genuine attempt to counter-claim, strong tone.
cantripmancer
axelrod
Sir chris
KCC
Rhand
beeboy
fuwa - self-deprecating frequently, fence sits on both sides of shadow and sir chris, no reasoning for sir chris vote. Inconsistent in characterizing her own attacks, seems to suggest her attacks subjective and might be valid only in her own eyes. Very light-hearted/carefree in tone, which is somewhat unusual for inexperienced scum .
vaimes
Tom
Syrenz/LW - entertains two diametrically opposed ideas using strong language for each, wavers, then picks one. Not organic read.
Shadow
Mafia
Your process initially felt like you had barely considered reads on anyone other than Grape, Shadow, and me (but only because I forced you to, because I was previously below your notice). That you have a structured list makes me feel a little better, but I'm also concerned that the way you're going about this resulted in reviews/reads on three players (plus a one-liner on Killjoy, which I'm fine with) last night. Assuming that you'll have no more time tonight, and given that you started with lowest post count players and full reviews on the remainder will likely take longer, you could maybe get through another 2-4 players tonight, leaving 6-8 for Friday night. Even taking Grape and Shadow out of the equation, that's still a) a lot of work you'll have to put in, and b) pretty much puts us at the 11th hour before you're "done".
My paranoia says that you're taking this path intentionally, running out the clock with long full reviews of all players to try to dazzle us at the last second and force a hasty fire drill that hopefully ends up on someone not your buddy (or at least sow enough doubt to dismantle your wagon below another player). If I look at it from the possibility of town!Az, it's possible that you really didn't expect you'd get run up to claim range/didn't expect to stay at claim range after claiming, and you just don't have the time to tackle your reads the way you want to be able to.
With the impending deadline in mind, if I recommend that we discuss pivots as though it was decided that you weren't to be the lunch, will you continue to follow through with your analysis? I don't want to wait til the last second to figure out where else we might lunch, but I don't want you to stop responding because the pressure falls off.
I'm going to assume that both town!you and scum!you would accede to that request (in-post, and hopefully in actuality), and proceed.
@All: I'm still fully invested in lunching Az. In a world where we don't lunch Az, where would we pivot to? My personal preferences would be Shadow, Tom, or Chris.
I've already noted some of the reasons I suspect Shadow, but the down side to putting pressure there is his continued assertion that he's not getting lunched, which makes me less happy with the thought of putting him to claim range (which, of course, may be exactly what he's counting on).
For Tom, my initial feelings that he's playing poorly to avoid the NK are getting a little stale because I continue to feel underwhelmed, especially with his "hot take" that DK is scum, which I really can't see.
Chris just seems to be openly wolfing with Az, which I can't help but drink some of that wine and ask is this scum!Chris and scum!Az trolling us with open wolfing? Or is it town!Chris reading Az (either alignment) so well that he knows that Az left portions of his claim out? (Or maybe I missed something in an Az post and I'm the only idiot who was caught off guard by that series of posts?) I want to say it's scum!Chris openly defending town!Az so blatantly that we can't possibly suspect Chris if Az flips town, but then Chris asking Az about the claim omission feels off.
I don't like fire drills; they fill me with all kinds of anxiety that I shouldn't experience over a game. So I'd like to start the discussion now, not tomorrow night. And if we just end up lunching Az regardless, then we'll still have the benefit of the thoughts and perspectives vocalized between now and then.
Intent at the host really, which is why I am against this confirmation bias of "well I am jack too so he is lying."
Proph clearly has had fun with the roles in this game.
True, and so, we should probably disregard the claim entirely and focus on behavior.
...
...
...
Oh, look, he's still scum
Possibly! That doesn't really work for me right now though so I am trying to kick loose some rocks to see how things go. There can only be so many day ones where I stupidly defend obvious scum I figure.
Plus you think I am scum so your judgment is obviously not 100% on these matters. Maybe you are 1/2 at the moment but you could just as easily be 0/2
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My read on this is similar. To choose to vote even when it means town dies is absolutely self-serving. However, claiming this early does read more town to me and while I'd admit that it has been 7 years, I do remember Vezok being an entirely self-serving player.
It's long weekend in Canada here - will likely be inactive till Monday.
This is the post I was picking on Syrenz/LW to tell me what was wrong with it.
Here, Syrenz/LW slot entertains two opposed and contrary ideas at the same time, and then decides to choose one of them, on the spot. This is a thing scum tend to do, because they are having to decide how to view a post, rather than having an immediate organic reaction to it, and they tend to use strong language with regard to both alternatives while townies use their strong language on only the alternative they favor.
Syrenz himself only had 4 other posts, and nothing in the other three popped to me. Gonna post this short one, then see if my formatting's working as intended before dreadnoughting.
I know--from my own mindset this game, even--that it's not uncommon for this "on the one hand this, but on the other that" mindset to come from town, and Syrenz takes a stance on where he ends up in his thought process.
You take them as personal digs, they are just markers for me. I have no intent to smear or discourage so I won't need to follow your advice, just play my normal game.
Anyway I didn't know if he had left something out, it was actually an alignment test for me. I like asking sneaky questions to see what happens. I already said that the worst part about Az's claim is that he just spilled his guts and was completely open about things he shouldn't be. I also find scum tend to be rigid with their claims because of the fear of being called liars etc. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that a scum Az would concede the point to me whereas it makes perfect sense to me that a town Az would hold something back from their claim. God help me, I just think Az is town.
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Forgive me Chris, but Az is a good player, and after specifically saying how much it is bad to give up all the info, for you to say you’re certain he held something back, I don’t think it’s particularly AI for him to confess there.
You take them as personal digs, they are just markers for me. I have no intent to smear or discourage so I won't need to follow your advice, just play my normal game.
Can't force you to do anything; just wanted to give you that perspective and let you know that it detracts from the game for me. Not so much that I'm going to ragequit and never play with you again, but enough that I felt the need to say something. I'll drop it for now, but I'd be open to more dialog post-game if desired.
Quote from Chris »
Anyway I didn't know if he had left something out, it was actually an alignment test for me. I like asking sneaky questions to see what happens. I already said that the worst part about Az's claim is that he just spilled his guts and was completely open about things he shouldn't be. I also find scum tend to be rigid with their claims because of the fear of being called liars etc. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that a scum Az would concede the point to me whereas it makes perfect sense to me that a town Az would hold something back from their claim. God help me, I just think Az is town.
I obviously couldn't read you in Hill House, and I can't read you now. Your confidence feels like TMI (but it also felt that way in Hill House), and I keep getting stuck on "scum!Chris lol-ligagging with scum!Az" or "scum!Chris buying HUGE town pants for white knighting town!Az", and then I have to reset because...Hill House.
Maybe But here's the thing: A lot of people have been calling me scum and they are swinging and missing all day, and good players don't get rung up day one as scum. They just don't. If Az is scum he is not playing a game where he can answer my question to my satisfaction but fumble himself over making concrete scum reads. Like the reasons why he is scum are far more simplistic and straight forward than my question meant to gauge him and so far people are like "omg scum." Also no one really answered to satisfaction the nature of his claim or why scum would choose to claim in that way. We've got "he wanted to be close to his role" to "oh but that third role he had to bs because it is the good role" and... I just don't think the logic of this train is very good right now. I see a lot of tunnel.
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You take them as personal digs, they are just markers for me. I have no intent to smear or discourage so I won't need to follow your advice, just play my normal game.
Can't force you to do anything; just wanted to give you that perspective and let you know that it detracts from the game for me. Not so much that I'm going to ragequit and never play with you again, but enough that I felt the need to say something. I'll drop it for now, but I'd be open to more dialog post-game if desired.
Quote from Chris »
Anyway I didn't know if he had left something out, it was actually an alignment test for me. I like asking sneaky questions to see what happens. I already said that the worst part about Az's claim is that he just spilled his guts and was completely open about things he shouldn't be. I also find scum tend to be rigid with their claims because of the fear of being called liars etc. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that a scum Az would concede the point to me whereas it makes perfect sense to me that a town Az would hold something back from their claim. God help me, I just think Az is town.
I obviously couldn't read you in Hill House, and I can't read you now. Your confidence feels like TMI (but it also felt that way in Hill House), and I keep getting stuck on "scum!Chris lol-ligagging with scum!Az" or "scum!Chris buying HUGE town pants for white knighting town!Az", and then I have to reset because...Hill House.
I don't know. I just don't know.
My confidence comes from 18 years of playing mafia and learning that weakness only gets you brushed aside. I have conviction in my read, I have tested my theory and gotten the result I expected if he is town, so I stand by it. I did what I consider to be my due diligence on this matter.
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I don't even know what to say - after specifically pointing out that there were dumb questions outstanding and pertinent questions - about Az coming back and answering the dumb questions and ignoring the pertinent ones. And instead playing some kind of "aren't we so smart" game with Chris.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Anyway I didn't know if he had left something out, it was actually an alignment test for me. I like asking sneaky questions to see what happens. I already said that the worst part about Az's claim is that he just spilled his guts and was completely open about things he shouldn't be. I also find scum tend to be rigid with their claims because of the fear of being called liars etc. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that a scum Az would concede the point to me whereas it makes perfect sense to me that a town Az would hold something back from their claim. God help me, I just think Az is town.
I am 100% confident that if Az had come back and said "um ,no actually I didn't lie and that's everything," you would have said "Ah ha! See! It's so Townie of him to stick with his story in the face of pressure from me intimating I know he's lying!"
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Whoever mentioned that Az might be trying to stall and hope we move elsewhere, I hear you, and I support you.
Its almost like he’s just completely ignoring the fact that he’s being wagoned. Like he’s doing some analysis, but it’s just...lacking in the drive to not be lynched. Part of me wonders if it’s just a time commitment thing, but I remember Az in zero escape actually fighting even past the time constraints.
And at this juncture, I don’t know who we have support to pivot to even. I don’t think there are enough for anyone but maybe Tom?
I’m with Cantrip though, I don’t want to scramble tomorrow in the last 2 hours. I’ll wait until Az does his activity spurt tonight to convince me otherwise, but I intend to vote in the next 12 hours.
@Chris: you’ve hard cleared and defended townies, but your push back for Az is pretty mild. If you really believe it, show us. Make me believe.
Forgive me Chris, but Az is a good player, and after specifically saying how much it is bad to give up all the info, for you to say you’re certain he held something back, I don’t think it’s particularly AI for him to confess there.
Possibility A: Chris and Az both scum. This is theater.
Possibility B: ScumAz TownChris. Chris isn't voting Az. Also, it's D1. Az has no reason to believe Chris's claim and can see this gambit from a mile away. Az says whatever he think Chris wants to hear.
Possibility C: Az is town. Again, this is D1, what info could Chris possibily have? There's no reason to take this at face value. What reason would Az have to think this isn't scum digging for info? Why would he share anything more than he was willing to claim the first time? This is ridiculous
Whoever mentioned that Az might be trying to stall and hope we move elsewhere, I hear you, and I support you.
(it me...in the same post where I suggest we consider looking elsewhere... *furtive glance*)
Out of curiosity, my post is *checks* only 11 above yours. Are you so dead set against the possibility that I could be town that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge you're agreeing with me? (This is mostly tongue-in-cheek, as I don't really think that's what's going on, but you being all "whoever" is weird to me.)
Eh, that's okay. I'll let you guys murder Az and see what comes of it. My WIM has expired.
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Clearly I am convincing literally no one so I guess I'll have to see what comes of this. Either I am right or I am not, and I don't like wasting my time so I presented my best case, we will see who was right on the flip. See you guys day 2.
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(it me...in the same post where I suggest we consider looking elsewhere... *furtive glance*)
Out of curiosity, my post is *checks* only 11 above yours. Are you so dead set against the possibility that I could be town that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge you're agreeing with me? (This is mostly tongue-in-cheek, as I don't really think that's what's going on, but you being all "whoever" is weird to me.)
I could've sworn it was someone else. Also, I was on mobile and reading other posts and hate trimming quotes to respond to like, one sentence.
(it me...in the same post where I suggest we consider looking elsewhere... *furtive glance*)
Out of curiosity, my post is *checks* only 11 above yours. Are you so dead set against the possibility that I could be town that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge you're agreeing with me? (This is mostly tongue-in-cheek, as I don't really think that's what's going on, but you being all "whoever" is weird to me.)
You don't think I'm scum trying to keep you in the lunch pool?
(it me...in the same post where I suggest we consider looking elsewhere... *furtive glance*)
Out of curiosity, my post is *checks* only 11 above yours. Are you so dead set against the possibility that I could be town that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge you're agreeing with me? (This is mostly tongue-in-cheek, as I don't really think that's what's going on, but you being all "whoever" is weird to me.)
You don't think I'm scum trying to keep you in the lunch pool?
*shrug* Could be. But that's not the impression I'm getting.
So uhhm I won't lie, I really could care less about the day 1 Lynch at this point for the most part outside a few people which I don't think are ever getting out put up
And pretty disconnected as well, I'll just be around to hammer tomorrow, nothing more, nothing less
KCC, how many inquiries other than mine did you get pre-game asking if you were KCC?
Fair enough.
I feel like there's a minor mindset mismatch in what you're saying. First, you note that it's (according to Vez) for mechanical reasons, so why would it be indicative of a scum mentality? Wouldn't the mechanical aspect put it pretty firmly in the land of NAI? Second, Vez--if telling the truth--knows that he has a reason to be on EVERY wagon, a reason that he won't necessarily be able to explain from his posts. Hence why he's outing that info now. This is why I agree that him doing so is town indicative: 1) he's telling us up front "hey, you won't be able to sort me (as easily) based on my wagon presence". 2) As you mentioned, he's openly sharing info and locking himself into a reality, which scum generally don't like to do (a reality that, also as you said, could be viewed as questionable). The more possibilities they can edge into late game, the better.
So when you said "gross", it felt a little like shade. Because you said you thought it made him town, but you applied a negative connotation up front. Obviously you'd say I'm reading too much into this as either alignment; can you articulate why you'd apply a descriptor that paints Vez's action in a negative light if you think he's town?
On the flip side, how likely do you think it that scum a) fakeclaim as Vez did (that is, not having a mechanical reason for being on every wagon), and b) claim just like Vez did (truly having a mechanical reason for being on every wagon)?
Unvote
So Cantrip seems pretty consistently interested in these kinds of logic/unfair attack style tells.
I'm liking shadow a lot here and KCC, Sir Chris and Cantrip a bit.
I'm not liking Vaimes, but it's more of a feeling than some concrete thoughts.
Also Fuwa looks pretty good right now. I like that he's sticking to his guns on cantrip and actually enjoys having someone on his wagon. Idk why but it seems like a sincere thought that comes from town more often than from scum.
Anyway the only content so far in the thread is a somewhat of a role claim in thread which I am neutral on.
And Shadow saying that makes the person town, which I find kind of odd and a wolfy analysis given I think the approach to the role is pretty standard regardless of what alignment you are and that to me feels kind of obvious.
The scum would make plans argument feels weird to me? It's not like a crazy role like that would be unexpected in a game like this.
Like it feels more like saying something because you can / to generate content rather then a real read.
I think I am ok with this vote at least for now. I'll obviously see how things develop.
vote: Shadow
Dislike how this starts off with the observation of nothing much that interests him, and how equivocal it is throughout.
While you’re correct that reasonableness Is not AI for me (and I’d like to maintain that I’ve not really done anything in the way of truly AI) I don’t really think reasonable is the best description of my play thus far. I think assertive is more accurate, would you disagree?
On reflection, I think self-conscious is probably the best adjective.
This feels like Az knows Grape is town. Or he has Einstein IQ.
No one reads a post like this, thinks all of that and then simply says “I think Grape is town”.
Yeah, still hate the incredible false dichotomy in this post.
Yuck, these posts are suuuuuuuper self-aware, especially when considering Vaimes just lost a game as scum where lurking was a primary reason why he got lynched.
dk and KCC came into the game all excited (which isn't necessarily a tell) but also they were kind of... the opposite of self aware a bit as well. Scum usually aren't so carefree in general, so those entrances were ones that made me say "ok, these folks might be town" and as such I gave them both townleans.
Additionally now, I like the clapback from dk in 106. He didn't just accept my townread lying down. He stopped and analyzed it and said "wait, I haven't done anything townie yet! Where is this coming from?" Scum might prefer not to put themselves out there and draw attention to the townread on themselves which they would know to be wrong (and therefore could collapse under scrutiny).
Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.
dking's vote is fine as discussed above. Rhand, Cantrip, and Axel are literally all just /barning that, and tom and shadow gave no reason. Well, technically Rhand /barns dk, Cantrip /barns Rhand, and Axel just restates dk's reason.
I originally said there was likely 1-2 in these 6. (I say 1-2 instead of just 1 due to the speed of the wagon.) With dking's out, there's 1-2 in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx. I don't think there's >1 scum in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod as they are basically just barning each other and I don't think scum typically interact like that. Well... ballsier scum might? I don't beleive they are ballsier scum though.
That leaves tom and shadow. There COULD be both scum here, as tom and shadow are both proficient and ballsy scum players who go against typcial scum tropes. But assuming that also goes against Occum's Razor since assuming that tom and shadow are both powerwolfing at this stage is not super likely. If there IS exactly 1 scum in there, tom is more likely due to 148 because it's could easily be malicious, whereras shadow hasn't done anything like that to me.
Now on to other things.
Vaimes: Yes, that was what I was asking. I recall you saying in scumchat in Hill House that that was like the 4th consecutive scumgame for you and you seemed to hate it. Good catch.
Rhand: Talk to me about this game. What else do you have opinions on?
Shadow: I'd really like a reason for your vote. You say 'unexpressed opinion'. What is that opinion?
I'm not gonna bother asking tom since there's a very likely chance he just won't answer and that'll tilt me again.
I feel like the logic in this case is held together by gossamer strands - and I normally hate this kind of "but there must be X scum on my wagon!" as a premise argument, but if you're going to go there, this is a good iteration of it. I like the portions of it where you're differentiating which types of scum votes are or are not likely to occur together on the wagon, and I do agree that Tom/Shadow were the worst two votes, there.
His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.
As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.
No but really, the way he’s sort of mindlessly pushing scumreads pings scum to me. I know tom isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty as scum, but it always always always feels forced, in a “I need results **** the process” kind of way.
So, the thing is, KJ, the wagon on you wasn't "bad." It was just weak, which is kind of a different thing. There wasn't much to it because there simply wasn't much that had happened in the game yet. It virtually had to be weak. I knew that when I voted, but I decided you gotta start somewhere.
I feel like you could/ought to have dismissed it with a waive of your hand and a roll of the eye (and at least some kind of superficial explanation for why you felt dking's RVS posts were Townie), but then you went and dug the hole deeper by not responding and instead promising a "full" response later (which is just always a Red Flag for me, especially when it would literally have taken two seconds), and then coming back with this huge dissection of your wagon which amounted to a virtually useless statistical analysis.
The entire point of running someone up quickly, especially with some weak reasoning - at least in my opinion - is to see what they will do. Secondarily to see how other people react to it. My feeling is generally scum will feel the pressure of it more than Town and be more likely to panic in someway. So taking a million hours off to compose your thoughts before replying is a scummy move. And that "analysis" of your wagon is another one.
Only reason I'm unvoting here is I feel the need to do some homework, in as much as I seem to recall being convinced you were scum before when you weren't and it was possibly for something like this, where your play pattern just didn't mesh with what I consider to be logical/normal behavior. I don't remember what game that was but it had to be one of the last two we played, so I'm going to do that.
So, I had no problem with [unexpressed thought], and even thought it was elegant, in as much as I didn't want anyone coming in and pointing out how weak the wagon was before KJ said something about it. But now he's said something, so why is your thought remaining unexpressed?
I'll show you "overexplained"
This post is a bit overwrought. Seems like a really awkward dance of trying to express continued or even heightened suspicion on KJ (who never should have been a wagon to begin with), and extricating himself at the exact same time.
Shadow: Did you ever follow up on that question you asked me about Chris's beeboy defense? I asked you what you were referring to but you never answered.
I actually don't want to lynch Az today.
I'm still into a Shadow lynch.
I want to reread Grape before deadline. Actually I wanna reread the game before deadline. I might make it.
Sorry been distracted. Think I missed another question as well.
I think Vez is town because of the claim coming freely as if it were a miller claim and his pointedness in what I see as wrong directions which fits with our history.
Answer my questions please?
Vote Count 1.25
Azrael (6): Cantripmancer, KittyCupCake, Vaimes, Rhand, dkingsland967, vezokpiraka
shadowlancerx (3): Azrael, killjoy, beeboy
tomsloger (2): Axelrod, Grapefruit21
Sir Chris (1): Fuwa
dkingsland967 (1): tomsloger
Grapefruit21 (1): Sir Chris
Abstain (2): Lastwhisper, shadowlancerx
With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.
Day 1 will end on Friday, August 16th, at 11:59 PM.
Fuwa V/LA until deadline
Lastwhisper V/LA until deadline
Grapefruit V/LA until deadline
beeboy V/LA until deadline
Yes I am a JOAT. Stop misrrepping my role. I get an ability at the end of the day and get to use it. I don't target a person and then something random happens to them. I just don't have control over which ability I get. While it's not the same as having a pool of abilities and choosing from it, it's still very similar in that I have a pool of abilities and get one every night.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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Actually why do you get an ability for causing a town death? You did say you had to be on the lynch, right?
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2015 - Best Overall Player
Whoa, that is some very hostile wording for someone you just listed in your town reads.
Proph seems a bit preoccupied at the moment, but we have similar design philosophies, so I can try fielding this for him. If I had designed this role, it would be to reduce swinginess; a mislynch hurts the town, but then there's an extra ability to help. The other reason might be to introduce some tension in the town, but with Vez's description, it doesn't sound like the role is really powerful enough for that to be Prophs motivation.
That threw me at first, but I still think vezok is almost certainly town due to claim + behavior. His defiance toward Sir Chris over the nature of his role further solidifies that read.
Not me. He said he wanted to be on every lynch, this is one of the few good motivations for that.
Proph clearly has had fun with the roles in this game.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
That sounds like a great way to design a super swingy game
Kcc
Shadow/rhand/vaimes/kj/last/grape
Fuwa/chris/axel
Dkings/beeboy
Az
True, and so, we should probably disregard the claim entirely and focus on behavior.
...
...
...
Oh, look, he's still scum
This is exactly what I am thinking and makes me feel better about you.
KCC addressed most of this, but cop is THE quintessential town role that is the easiest path to gaining confirmed alignment info. It's the role most likely to make town hesitate to follow through on a lunch.
...I am at a loss for words. I can't even right now.
I agree with everything DK is saying here.
Your process initially felt like you had barely considered reads on anyone other than Grape, Shadow, and me (but only because I forced you to, because I was previously below your notice). That you have a structured list makes me feel a little better, but I'm also concerned that the way you're going about this resulted in reviews/reads on three players (plus a one-liner on Killjoy, which I'm fine with) last night. Assuming that you'll have no more time tonight, and given that you started with lowest post count players and full reviews on the remainder will likely take longer, you could maybe get through another 2-4 players tonight, leaving 6-8 for Friday night. Even taking Grape and Shadow out of the equation, that's still a) a lot of work you'll have to put in, and b) pretty much puts us at the 11th hour before you're "done".
My paranoia says that you're taking this path intentionally, running out the clock with long full reviews of all players to try to dazzle us at the last second and force a hasty fire drill that hopefully ends up on someone not your buddy (or at least sow enough doubt to dismantle your wagon below another player). If I look at it from the possibility of town!Az, it's possible that you really didn't expect you'd get run up to claim range/didn't expect to stay at claim range after claiming, and you just don't have the time to tackle your reads the way you want to be able to.
With the impending deadline in mind, if I recommend that we discuss pivots as though it was decided that you weren't to be the lunch, will you continue to follow through with your analysis? I don't want to wait til the last second to figure out where else we might lunch, but I don't want you to stop responding because the pressure falls off.
I'm going to assume that both town!you and scum!you would accede to that request (in-post, and hopefully in actuality), and proceed.
@All: I'm still fully invested in lunching Az. In a world where we don't lunch Az, where would we pivot to? My personal preferences would be Shadow, Tom, or Chris.
I've already noted some of the reasons I suspect Shadow, but the down side to putting pressure there is his continued assertion that he's not getting lunched, which makes me less happy with the thought of putting him to claim range (which, of course, may be exactly what he's counting on).
For Tom, my initial feelings that he's playing poorly to avoid the NK are getting a little stale because I continue to feel underwhelmed, especially with his "hot take" that DK is scum, which I really can't see.
Chris just seems to be openly wolfing with Az, which I can't help but drink some of that wine and ask is this scum!Chris and scum!Az trolling us with open wolfing? Or is it town!Chris reading Az (either alignment) so well that he knows that Az left portions of his claim out? (Or maybe I missed something in an Az post and I'm the only idiot who was caught off guard by that series of posts?) I want to say it's scum!Chris openly defending town!Az so blatantly that we can't possibly suspect Chris if Az flips town, but then Chris asking Az about the claim omission feels off.
I don't like fire drills; they fill me with all kinds of anxiety that I shouldn't experience over a game. So I'd like to start the discussion now, not tomorrow night. And if we just end up lunching Az regardless, then we'll still have the benefit of the thoughts and perspectives vocalized between now and then.
Possibly! That doesn't really work for me right now though so I am trying to kick loose some rocks to see how things go. There can only be so many day ones where I stupidly defend obvious scum I figure.
Plus you think I am scum so your judgment is obviously not 100% on these matters. Maybe you are 1/2 at the moment but you could just as easily be 0/2
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
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2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I know--from my own mindset this game, even--that it's not uncommon for this "on the one hand this, but on the other that" mindset to come from town, and Syrenz takes a stance on where he ends up in his thought process.
Grape, Have you gone back to look at Az's attack on Syrenz? What I was questioning was how Az asked Syrenz to self-identify what was wrong with his (Syrenz's) post (and followed up/pressed in 273).
Anyway I didn't know if he had left something out, it was actually an alignment test for me. I like asking sneaky questions to see what happens. I already said that the worst part about Az's claim is that he just spilled his guts and was completely open about things he shouldn't be. I also find scum tend to be rigid with their claims because of the fear of being called liars etc. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that a scum Az would concede the point to me whereas it makes perfect sense to me that a town Az would hold something back from their claim. God help me, I just think Az is town.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I obviously couldn't read you in Hill House, and I can't read you now. Your confidence feels like TMI (but it also felt that way in Hill House), and I keep getting stuck on "scum!Chris lol-ligagging with scum!Az" or "scum!Chris buying HUGE town pants for white knighting town!Az", and then I have to reset because...Hill House.
I don't know. I just don't know.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
My confidence comes from 18 years of playing mafia and learning that weakness only gets you brushed aside. I have conviction in my read, I have tested my theory and gotten the result I expected if he is town, so I stand by it. I did what I consider to be my due diligence on this matter.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
And at this juncture, I don’t know who we have support to pivot to even. I don’t think there are enough for anyone but maybe Tom?
I’m with Cantrip though, I don’t want to scramble tomorrow in the last 2 hours. I’ll wait until Az does his activity spurt tonight to convince me otherwise, but I intend to vote in the next 12 hours.
@Chris: you’ve hard cleared and defended townies, but your push back for Az is pretty mild. If you really believe it, show us. Make me believe.
Possibility A: Chris and Az both scum. This is theater.
Possibility B: ScumAz TownChris. Chris isn't voting Az. Also, it's D1. Az has no reason to believe Chris's claim and can see this gambit from a mile away. Az says whatever he think Chris wants to hear.
Possibility C: Az is town. Again, this is D1, what info could Chris possibily have? There's no reason to take this at face value. What reason would Az have to think this isn't scum digging for info? Why would he share anything more than he was willing to claim the first time? This is ridiculous
Out of curiosity, my post is *checks* only 11 above yours. Are you so dead set against the possibility that I could be town that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge you're agreeing with me? (This is mostly tongue-in-cheek, as I don't really think that's what's going on, but you being all "whoever" is weird to me.)
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
And pretty disconnected as well, I'll just be around to hammer tomorrow, nothing more, nothing less
So Cantrip seems pretty consistently interested in these kinds of logic/unfair attack style tells.
Mildly townish Vez post.
Dislike how this starts off with the observation of nothing much that interests him, and how equivocal it is throughout.
On reflection, I think self-conscious is probably the best adjective.
Waaaaaait a minute. This is in response to Grapefruit explanation? Weren't you one of the clowns that was trying to pile on to me about that?!
I knew it!
Yeah, still hate the incredible false dichotomy in this post.
So much for that. (Patience on the syrenz/lw prod)
Yuck.
Double yuck.
This is true.
I feel like the logic in this case is held together by gossamer strands - and I normally hate this kind of "but there must be X scum on my wagon!" as a premise argument, but if you're going to go there, this is a good iteration of it. I like the portions of it where you're differentiating which types of scum votes are or are not likely to occur together on the wagon, and I do agree that Tom/Shadow were the worst two votes, there.
That's a terrible point. Not everyone under attack is obligated to immediately counter-wagon.
THANK YOU
Another really solid grape post.
This is super lazy, and I don't grok it, at all.
Excellent and spot-on bus.
This post is a bit overwrought. Seems like a really awkward dance of trying to express continued or even heightened suspicion on KJ (who never should have been a wagon to begin with), and extricating himself at the exact same time.
Repost? Doing work here.