KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So that escalated quickly... Yes KJ's reads are bad but his approach is town. This is like ditf all over. Though he definitely felt like h was building to a tom vote in 154.
His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.
As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.
Is grape trying to save KJ, or does he think this is a mislynch already in the bag and wants townpoints for reading him correctly?
KJ doesn't have an amazing role as claimed, why wouldn't GF bus here?
The KJ wagon looked like this at peak. I'm pretty confident on every one but Tom on this wagon.
If kjTown/tomScum, I could see grape not wanting more scum on the wagon. If they're both town, it's pretty safe for GF to help push this over the edge, he can't think they can get that mislynch without scum getting their hands dirty at all, I don't think that works. If kjScum/tomTown, is that a perfectly pure wagon? It would make sense why KJ threw generic shade at the whole thing, but how does GF not bus there and try to salvage what they can by killing D1 early? Grape sounds somewhat resigned to KJ going down there.
I'm unsure if Vezok is tunneling or I'm just really wrong about him.
If he's scum I guess I'll be 3/3 for townreading scum this game.
Yes, I'm scum and pushed for two of my buddies day 1 and CC'ed scum's probably most powerful role just for funsies. Also stopped in my push for your head and Sir Chris' head to bus my other buddy because half the town was treating me as confirmed town and I needed more cred and then went back to trying to lynch my day 1 scumread, because I want this exact mislynch and not any other like tom. /s
This is very obviously shading, but you haven't payed enough attention to the game to know that I am the moment the least likely person to be scum. Saying "vezok is scum" and giving no other reason except OMGUS is not how town think. This is not solving. This is scum trying to deflect as hard as possible in the hopes they get the mislynch on tom.
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I've been really gun shy with my ability. I didn't want to stop protectives on town and didn't want to stop investigatives/roleblocks on scum.
Hitting scum isn't worth it, as it doesn't disrupt them and otherwise doesn't do anything to directly hurt them. Hitting town isn't really worth it either, as it could just get them killed if protectives guess right.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm unsure if Vezok is tunneling or I'm just really wrong about him.
If he's scum I guess I'll be 3/3 for townreading scum this game.
Yes, I'm scum and pushed for two of my buddies day 1 and CC'ed scum's probably most powerful role just for funsies. Also stopped in my push for your head and Sir Chris' head to bus my other buddy because half the town was treating me as confirmed town and I needed more cred and then went back to trying to lynch my day 1 scumread, because I want this exact mislynch and not any other like tom. /s
This is very obviously shading, but you haven't payed enough attention to the game to know that I am the moment the least likely person to be scum. Saying "vezok is scum" and giving no other reason except OMGUS is not how town think. This is not solving. This is scum trying to deflect as hard as possible in the hopes they get the mislynch on tom.
I am townreading you, I made a whole post about it. But I'm pretty notoriously wrong a lot, as you've seen this game. You're just aggressively pushing me. Scum want to lynch me. Hence my questioning my read there.
Don't pretend like you can't be scum. Like, only scum actually know your alignment. You being scum isn't impossible.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I've already read today and my super solid town read on tom has not budged.
Someone redirecting cantrip to town makes so much more sense then tom faking his flavour for *****s and giggles.
Although now that I see KJ's wagon analysis I kinda doubt you can actually be scun. How about we work together and find the scum instead of going after tom?
Whhere you seem to be saying you don't think I'm scum but you're still pushing me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
This is me reading into Osie trying to policy lynch Tom. Osie, if I’m wrong, expain for me why?
Nah, I legit think he's scum for fake claim plus behavior.
(I do kinda think that his playstyle doesn't really warrant any regret if he's mislynched though, but that's not a "He should get lynched because of his playstyle, regardless of alignment." Rather, it's "Even if it is a mislynch, he's kinda walked into that.")
I don't like the idea of an Osie lynch tbh. I don't see the purpose of going gangbusters on grape the scumbuddy with their early entrance to then change course and go after Tom.
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I didn't think it was a likely world; Wisp is townier than tom.
Sorry, townier than "tom's fake persona". Gotta keep tom away from responsibility for his own play.
I feel like you're being bitterer than you need to be here. I've never felt like Tom's flavorplay/gimmicking has made his actual play fake, nor do I think he doesn't take responsibility for his play.
This isn't the only time he's pulled the "I use a fake persona, so you're not really reading me" card. And it pretty much excuses acting trolly more than anything else. Bitter? Maybe a little. Ready to lynch that sliminess on sight? Absolutely.
In fairness Tom being scum shooting the literal backup would fit into the scum team's play of "suck."
Although shooting dkings 'fast' seems revisionist to me. He took his sweet ass time shooting that day.
Maybe you are not remembering, but after taking so long to come to the conclusion that it was Megs, and then getting almost universally vetoed from taking that shot after Megs claim, he had DK claim and then almost immediately shot him, despite the fact that DK had said he didn't have time to respond but would be back later.
You are really getting hung up on the whole "back-up" claim thing. Scum priority is hitting a Townie if they can get away with it. Period. Role is virtually irrelevant. Trying to take down a power role especially is just wishful thinking. You will almost certainly get vetoed just like Megs got vetoed.
jesus christ.
Im glad the goal of a vig shot isnt "make people happy" because thats apparently impossible
Ive been told i was too slow, too fast, made the day about me, didnt open up for enough discussion, didnt shoot ____
I've already read today and my super solid town read on tom has not budged.
Someone redirecting cantrip to town makes so much more sense then tom faking his flavour for *****s and giggles.
Although now that I see KJ's wagon analysis I kinda doubt you can actually be scun. How about we work together and find the scum instead of going after tom?
Whhere you seem to be saying you don't think I'm scum but you're still pushing me.
That post was made after your wagon analysis. I thought you the effort put into the wagon analysis might have been coming from town you, but you kinda disappeared and I thought about it more and you're still my biggest scum read.
And yeah, I am claiming that there is absolutely no reason to question me. I have been right about all my reads this game. I have hounded scum for the entirety of this game. If you want to question me you'll need some pretty big reasons for it and me scumreading you is not one of them.
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Ive been told i was too slow, too fast, made the day about me, didnt open up for enough discussion, didnt shoot ____
Like, i shot who i shot when i decided.
Your shot was too slow and too fast. You waited a whole week (an entire half of D2) to even pick a target, and then couldn't wait an afternoon for dk to actually post a response.
Im also just gonna say if yall didnt like my shot i literally gave you a week to convince me otherwise and you all just sat there.
No, you gave us 20 posts to react between "hey I'm looking at dk" and "oops I guess he's dead". Only 5 players even had a chance to post in there! I certainly would have said something, but I went out that day with dk not being a target, and came home to him dead already!
I've been really gun shy with my ability. I didn't want to stop protectives on town and didn't want to stop investigatives/roleblocks on scum.
Hitting scum isn't worth it, as it doesn't disrupt them and otherwise doesn't do anything to directly hurt them. Hitting town isn't really worth it either, as it could just get them killed if protectives guess right.
Could you go into more detail on your decision making process last Night after grape's flip?
Also my experiance with Ascetic isn't one that says d1 claims are necessary. I don't recall anyone else claiming D1 ever, and I was never Ascetic before. The only role that claims D1 is Miller.
Did you think about claiming at all after Vez's early claim? -I don't think there is a written rule about it being necessary to claim if you need to Lynch townies for an ability either, but Vez figured that out.
@axelrod
What are these associations that make Tom look bad in terms of Grape/Azreal?
Starting with Tom/Az on D1. Az -> had very little to say about Tom. To the point of literally saying nothing about him in his big "reads" post.
Town:
Grapefruit
Dkingsland - numerous strong townie attitude posts.
Killjoy – strong tonally
Vez - genuine attempt to counter-claim, strong tone.
Cantripmancer – post 38: consistently focused on logic-based tells, unfair seeming attacks.
Sir chris – would have been super easy to let me die. Hopefully not pocketing me.
KCC
Rhand
beeboy – certain type of self-awareness, wants freedom to lynch arbitrarily, unvote based on role reasons. More analysis necessary, says time for competing wagons – why?
fuwa - self-deprecating frequently, fence sits on both sides of shadow and sir chris, no reasoning for sir chris vote. Inconsistent in characterizing her own attacks, seems to suggest her attacks subjective and might be valid only in her own eyes. Very light-hearted/carefree in tone, which is somewhat unusual for inexperienced scum .
Axelrod – weak push vs KJ, weak jump off. 189. Weirdly states suspicions heightened at same time he extricates.
Syrenz/LW - entertains two diametrically opposed ideas using strong language for each, wavers, then picks one. Not organic read.
Tom
Shadow – snipes reasonlessly at KJ, tries to pick on KJ for not counter-voting in his analysis post.
Vaimes – too preoccupied with protecting his own self-image, non-committed and poor explanations for votes on Cantrip and I, good explanation for vote on Tom (buddy?), but won’t follow through, too-easy clear on shadow (buddy?), multiple extremely poor voting reasons for me (activity, lack of counter-wagon, cheap points, not reading posts fully), not fairly evaluating.
Mafia
When you are dealing with scumbuddies, you have like three choices. (1) Town-read them (aka powerwolf) (2) Scum-read them (aka bus) or (3) Waffle/Ignore them as much as possible. You also usually don't play it the same way with all your scum-buddies.
Looking at Tom -> Az on D1. Tom started by calling Az "pretty Town" in #96 on 8/5.
Next time he interacts with Az, it's to vote Az in #799 on 8/13 for the reason "Choo Choo." Az was the leading wagon at that moment. This is not exactly a blistering takedown.
He continues to not actually say anything about Az and then unvotes him to vote for Dking in #835. This is before Az has claimed.
After Az claimed, Tom did express some thoughts that Az was more likely to be scum than Vez. based on the mechanics. Still did not vote him. Said he wasn't too worried b/c with the claim it was likely Az couldn't' do anything until D3.
And then joined the Fuwa counter-wagon at #1146. Reasoning there was "lol" :popcorneating. This despite his statement that he actually didn't think Fuwa was more likely scum than Az. Says he voted Fuwa because it was a good counterwagon and Fuwa's "popin" was scummy.
And then the day ended and he "Hammered" Az after Az was already lynched.
None of that is inspiring.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Grape -> Tom. It's worth noting that Grape was claiming he thought Tom was scummy D1, but on D2 did not start with voting him or challenging him in basically anyway. He starts D2 saying he would vote for LW and Chris.
Somewhat strangely, he has NO apparent interest in Tom's claimed Day-kill. I do not see anywhere where GF comments on it, or suggests how Tom should use it, or says anything at all about it. I don't actually know what to make of that.
He has a few very innocuous questions for Tom while voting for other people.
Then, after he gets pressured to claim, he gives his big "reads" post:
KJ, Cantrip, and KCC all feel townie to me.
Chris is scum.
Wisp, tom, and Shadow are the three players I'm having the hardest time pegging. Wisp is there on tone and energy level but he's lacking the tunnel vision he normally has. Tom is tom. But he was really scummy D1 but he's been solid toDay. And scum!tom probably doesn't shoot that early. Shadow on the other hand just feels all kind of wrong but his votes yesterday are so pure.
Vez and Vaimes are meh townish.
Axel, Osie, and Meg are meh scum-ish.
"Tom is Tom" is a bit of a red flag for me. GF is still strongly pushing Chris.
Until, at the very end of the day, GF then abruptly votes Tom. I don't remember how much of a viable counterwagon Tom was at that moment in time, but this kind of self-preservation vote doesn't really move the needle for me.
Tom -> GF
Tom doesn't have anything to say about GF at the beginning of D2. He goes through his re-reads, without having much comment about GF, and comes down on
Shooting in that bottom 4 for sure. Prolly iso all 4 tomorrow
As his final reads. With Grape right above his cut-off line.
Ends up shooting Dking. His next vote goes to Chris.
Shadow asks him specifically about Grape and Tom's response in #2031 is that he "couldn't tell you a grape post tbh"
Tom then apparently does a re-read of Grape in #2041. It's kind of waffly, but it does conclude with "Grape can die." Does not vote him at this time.
He switches his vote to GF at #2084, with no further comments about Grape.
His final assessment at #2250 is:
Im pretty ready to end the day. Grape isnt the scummiest per se, but he probably is the most likely AZ buddy based on d1 interactions and d2 motivation
So, he's on the wagon, but he wasn't really pushing it very hard.
This is what I am seeing, and I don't see anything here that couldn't be a scum/scum. The strangest thing like I said is how GF completely avoided commenting on Tom's day-kill. I have mixed feelings on that.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Grape votes Tom here. But then almost immediately moves the vote to shadow. Notably, vaimes had just moved his vote from Tom to Az, shifting their counts from 3-4 to 2-5(whether or not grape saw that move before voting Tom changes things a lot here).
If KJ or Chris is scum, it's possible GF was hesitant to put a third scum on shadows wagon.
If GF saw vaimes move his vote, this looks like GF wanting to be on record against Tom before pushing the shadow counterwagon.
But, if GF didn't see vaimes vote, this looks much better for Tom. GF pushing Tom as a third viable wagon, then seeing vaimes pull his vote, making the push less viable, then going after shadow would be pretty indicative of townTom.
Unfortunately, I don't see any indication of if GF saw the vaimes VB vote move.
Quote from "Vote Count 1.21" »
Azrael (6): Cantripmancer, shadowlancerx, KittyCupCake, Vaimes, Lastwhisper, Rhand
shadowlancerx (5): Sir Chris, Azrael, killjoy, beeboy, Grapefruit21
Sir Chris (2): Fuwa, vezokpiraka
tomsloger (1): Axelrod
beeboy (1): tomsloger
Grapefruit21 (1): dkingsland967
Abstain (0)
This is when grape voted Tom again.
I understand him pulling the vote from shadow, as that was going nowhere. But is grape trying to start a counterwagon here, or just wanting to distance before Az goes down?
Ive been told i was too slow, too fast, made the day about me, didnt open up for enough discussion, didnt shoot ____
Like, i shot who i shot when i decided.
Your shot was too slow and too fast. You waited a whole week (an entire half of D2) to even pick a target, and then couldn't wait an afternoon for dk to actually post a response.
Im also just gonna say if yall didnt like my shot i literally gave you a week to convince me otherwise and you all just sat there.
No, you gave us 20 posts to react between "hey I'm looking at dk" and "oops I guess he's dead". Only 5 players even had a chance to post in there! I certainly would have said something, but I went out that day with dk not being a target, and came home to him dead already!
So cut this fake indignant bs
lets just ignore i spent a bunch of that week begging people to talk to me
Im not indignant though. Just annoyed.
Im sure theres better things to push me for than the one time this game i buckled down and did work
@axel
Im pretty used to scum ignoring me except to push me. Im hard to react to.
From my end, i didnt really catch either on behavior. Az i saw cases during my catchup but already pretty much knew he was scum because claims. Grape i knew was playing champs and decided to wait til he started playing, and from that talk with shadow saw how aligned he was with az.
Its not inspiring but i got there on both
I don't remember how much of a viable counterwagon Tom was at that moment in time, but this kind of self-preservation vote doesn't really move the needle for me.
It felt pretty viable, I voted Tom to oppose the grape wagon almost as much because I thought Tom was scum.
But yeah, with Tom being likely vanilla at that point, grape sacrificing Tom is perfectly reasonable
For the record i wasnt saying dkings was a good shot anymore
Still want to murder kj tho
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This Tom wagon seemed to drain the energy from the thread, and I’m not sure why.
Two scum left, if Tom is scum, only one buddy able to try and direct a counterwagon or energy elsewhere, meaning if the town is content then that’s could explain it.
If Tom is town, scum could either be vocal about the lynch, or trying not to draw attention to themselves so as to make this day turn sour for them.
In either scenario, there’s not a lot of town conversing happening, which is annoying.
I still don’t think it’s Tom, and I think the most compelling stuff against him is the interactions that Axel posted. Behaviorally, I’ve liked him, I think his process for the daykill makes a lot of sense from town Tom; it would have been a very good fake job on the part of scum Tom. I think there are some decent reasons to look at a few people for possible deepwolf status, but not today; I think today we need to cut the PoE down some more.
As such, I will only be voting for Osie/last or KJ if not one of those.
I have yet to see compelling “not in the PoE” arguments for any of those three, despite there being some points in their favor.
I've been really gun shy with my ability. I didn't want to stop protectives on town and didn't want to stop investigatives/roleblocks on scum.
Hitting scum isn't worth it, as it doesn't disrupt them and otherwise doesn't do anything to directly hurt them. Hitting town isn't really worth it either, as it could just get them killed if protectives guess right.
Could you go into more detail on your decision making process last Night after grape's flip?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
This Tom wagon seemed to drain the energy from the thread, and I’m not sure why.
Well, I feel drained, but it's not really from this wagon in particular. I'm just out of it in general. Not great, as it could be a bit of complacency setting in, which is bad. But I've not had the energy to really dig into it.
It's like, if we're lynching in Tom/Osie/Killjoy then, fine? I would put Chris in there also but for his claim, and that's maybe not a great reason to leave him out, but it's a reason.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
So wagon on kj was the first real wagon of the game.
Dkings started it noting kjs townread of him when he hadnt said anything. Everyone else either sheeped that or, ahem, just joined because it was the first wagon. I know thats me i assume shadow too.
Kjs next chunk of posting is basically reflexive push on the wagon itself but not actually the people on it?
Like he kind of comes away scumreading me/axel but he doesnt do anything with it.
I kind of like his toneread of fuwa being overly innocent. Its just an analogy and explaining it i guess, but its a point he wants to get across. doesnt feel partnery
He handles az and grape the same. Basically "theyre good they should be doing more" and *crickets* when they dont.
His d1 shadow push is ~fine, if a little gleeful. But it turns into the excuse to defend az, because they agree.
And az flip doesnt change his scumread of shadow d2. So az is town because shadows a wolf but the reverse *crickets*
Only thing az flip does change for him is fuwa town for being the counterwagon. He only gives the wagon itself cursory examination
He does the little page by page thing which i can totally see kj doing as either alignment, but im just gonna call the fact he stopped the page before his wagon scummy. But not really because it was silly anyway
Literally defends grape for defending him
And now pushing me for not shooting him basically? But hes also openly popcorning "tom vs cantrip" and i hate it
Im not sure the hyper self-focus is super meaningful in and of itself, but that and the mentor chat+page by page+hard votaling add up to looking like he just doesnt know what to talk about.
And his reads and pushes are just so wolfy. Defended both scum for pretty questionable reasons, pushing all town afaict
I still dont have a huge behavioral read here tbh. That little chunk a few pages back felt like kj/osi team tryna push my lynch through, but im probably not that important and im eh on them being partners from kjs side overall
Theres like, a chance hes just spectacularly wrong town. But him being a wolf seems more likely aorn.
I feel it most in the wifomy posts i think. There was one about scum treating him like a buddy on purpose thats just. Lol.
I dont much care about the claim. Like, flavor should clearly be boggles on that but whatever. Its possible that whatever version of that role that scumkj wouldnt claim is what ****ed with cantrip but thats all speculation.
@KCC: This was before I really had a strong read on him. I was kinda townreading him on behavior except the terrible vote on my wagon. He was among the best analysts in the game as well, but I was kinda approaching it wrong. I had a "maybe if I protect tom from things, I can stop something maybe bad" but obviously that doesn't work. Like a lot of my thoughts that night involved my ability stopping kills too, which it doesn't. After I realized that, I rethought it a bit.
After that, I just couldn't really find a good target.
@tom: I'll respond to ^^^^ tomorrow. I have work early in the morning and I'm tired.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KCC: This was before I really had a strong read on him. I was kinda townreading him on behavior except the terrible vote on my wagon. He was among the best analysts in the game as well, but I was kinda approaching it wrong. I had a "maybe if I protect tom from things, I can stop something maybe bad" but obviously that doesn't work. Like a lot of my thoughts that night involved my ability stopping kills too, which it doesn't. After I realized that, I rethought it a bit.
This... isn't enough. You saw Tom as a good analyst who you were kinda townreading -okay. Did you consider anyone else? Who? Why? You said you rethought things after your realization -how so? Walk me through your process with baby steps.
@KCC: This was before I really had a strong read on him. I was kinda townreading him on behavior except the terrible vote on my wagon. He was among the best analysts in the game as well, but I was kinda approaching it wrong. I had a "maybe if I protect tom from things, I can stop something maybe bad" but obviously that doesn't work. Like a lot of my thoughts that night involved my ability stopping kills too, which it doesn't. After I realized that, I rethought it a bit.
This... isn't enough. You saw Tom as a good analyst who you were kinda townreading -okay. Did you consider anyone else? Who? Why? You said you rethought things after your realization -how so? Walk me through your process with baby steps.
He can't cause he is lying. This is just bullhit to fill the posts.
Tom's post sums it up perfectly. The only real push KJ has ever even tried this game is on me. He has played a textbook scummy game with bad interactions with all dead scum and nonsensical stances.
People voting tom: Tom's game make sense as town. Everything he did, while questionable, can come from town tom. What KJ did has no chance of coming from town KJ.
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#825 (preclaim az peak)
Azrael (8): Cantrip, shadow, Kcc, Vaimes, Rhand, tom, dkings, vezok
shadow (4): Chris, Azrael, kj, beeboy
tom (2): Axel, Grape
Chris (1): Fuwa
Abstain (1): Last
Dual fuwa peaks:
Fuwa (7): Grape, Chris, shadow, tom, Cantrip, Kcc, vezok
Azrael (3): Vaimes, Rhand, dkings
shadow (2): kj, beeboy
Chris (1): Fuwa
Vaimes (1): Azrael
tom (1): Axel
Abstain (1): Last
Fuwa (7): Grape, Chris, shadow, tom, Cantrip, vezok, Last
Azrael (5): Vaimes, Rhand, dkings, Kcc, Axel,
shadow (2): kj, beeboy
Chris (1): Fuwa
Vaimes (1): Azrael
D1 final
Azrael (9): Vaimes, Rhand, dkings, Kcc, Axel, Fuwa, shadow, Cantrip, kj
Fuwa (5): Grape, Chris, tom, vezok, Last
shadow (1): beeboy
Vaimes (1): Azrael
I dont think its super meaningful because lol page 3, but i do think that wagon on kj is all town. And 6/7 of it is on az to force the claim.
(Said i wasnt gonna defend anymore but these votecounts where i saw dkings surrounded by people i think are town are a big part of why i shot him. Scum not voting scum as a general rule this game fools that sort of votal analysis though)
Fuwa wagon:
Grape was first vote but the actual wagon happened after, when fuwa popped in and <was scummy>
So not really counting it for much
Chris being next on, and staying forever, is probably not w/w. You could say bussing the weaker buddy but if chris made the choice to powerwolf i think he just goes all the way.
Shadow/cantrip/kcc are the people that went az to fuwa and back to az. Which is, like, always town if osislot is town and fairly towny if osi is a wolf short of some shenanigans to force w/w wagons and just nah in general theres never a plan to take a dive for someone else...
Vezoks fine. Mechanical vote.
Last could maybe be a fuwa busser? Certainly the most likely in the wagon proper. But havent seen any bussing yet.
A little sus if osis town as well
On the final az vote, its mostly the people that actually made it happen.
Vaimes and axel pushed him much of the day
See above for shadow/cantrip/kcc
Fuwas vote there probably isnt AI. Self pres, in general, right thing to do there regardless of alignment.
KJs, after it was decided. If hes scum presumably an attempt to salvage <something> from the day
A lot of votals i look at are a bunch of my townreads voting a bunch of dead scum and scummy people.
He can't cause he is lying. This is just bullhit to fill the posts.
I'm willing to let him try while waiting for Cantrips input.
I'll say I haven't liked what I've seen so far. Tom was under enough suspicion D1 that I didn't see him as a reasonable scum target N1, and a light town read doesn't feel like a real reason
@KCC: This was before I really had a strong read on him. I was kinda townreading him on behavior except the terrible vote on my wagon. He was among the best analysts in the game as well, but I was kinda approaching it wrong. I had a "maybe if I protect tom from things, I can stop something maybe bad" but obviously that doesn't work. Like a lot of my thoughts that night involved my ability stopping kills too, which it doesn't. After I realized that, I rethought it a bit.
This... isn't enough. You saw Tom as a good analyst who you were kinda townreading -okay. Did you consider anyone else? Who? Why? You said you rethought things after your realization -how so? Walk me through your process with baby steps.
I considered tom first before I realized just how bad my role was. Like I had thought it could help tom if used on him. Then, I realized it hurts more than it helps, because it doesn't prevent kills, but does prevent things like protectives that DO protect against kills. It prevents roleblocks, which would help town in the short term, but then in the long term it hurts because it might waste shots of other people, not just protectives. Investigatives can waste their turns on them, X shot can potentially lose shots. It's really just... all bad.
I'm just now as I'm writing this realizing that maybe I would claim who I targeted at that point. So that doesn't happen. IDK if this is smart but I'm a 'claim only when necessary' player but I guess it would be necessary at that point. That's the point when the detriment to the town outweighs the benefit of scum not being able to put the setup together quite as easily. And the possiblilty of town wasting shots/nights outweighs the benefit of scum wasting a roleblock or even a rolecop or something crazier. But most importantly, the detriment of protectives possibly correctly saving someone, but having it prevented outweighs... everything else.
I know you haven't been here, KCC, but recently in post games I've been receiving some flak (understatement) for my play... most recently was the endgame of Death In The Family, where I basically speedhammered the last two town. People were like... really mad. I've decided to avoid that outcome if I can.
I feel like you're looking for something like "I specifically considered Cantrip, but decided..." But that never happened. After I realized how bad my role was, I started looking at what could go wrong if I targeted people. Stopped docs on town, stopped investigatives on scum... it's just not worth it. Not unless there's a decent benefit. In most cases.... no.
That brings me to Grape. His coroner shot I thought would help because scum already have a bunch of setup info in knowing all their own roles. I thought that:
A) seeing Rhand + DKing's roles in the thread might help give some insight into what is all in this game. I'm terrible at setup gaming, but other's aren't. Maybe they can do something with it.
B) Grape is an upper-mid tier player. I'd say B. Sometimes he's pretty good. Sometimes he tunnels/gets on his little crazy train. As such, I didn't think he was a high value doc target. Targeting him probably wouldn't have stopped a doc from saving him from scum killing him.
He fit all the criteria that I was looking for. But then he got lynched and was scum. So go me and my scumreading abilities.
Anyway, now it's back to no one being worth it to me. Hopefully that makes sense.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vote Count 3.4
tomsloger (4): Vaimes, Killjoy, osieorb18, Cantripmancer
Killjoy (3): tomsloger, Sir Chris, vezokpiraka
osieorb18 (3): Axelrod, KittyCupCake, shadowlancerx
Abstain (1): Lastwhisper
With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
Day 3 will end at 11:59PM EST, Wednesday, September 18th. Here is the deadline.
If he's scum I guess I'll be 3/3 for townreading scum this game.
Defends KJ, deflects to Axel
Is grape trying to save KJ, or does he think this is a mislynch already in the bag and wants townpoints for reading him correctly?
KJ doesn't have an amazing role as claimed, why wouldn't GF bus here?
The KJ wagon looked like this at peak. I'm pretty confident on every one but Tom on this wagon.
If kjTown/tomScum, I could see grape not wanting more scum on the wagon. If they're both town, it's pretty safe for GF to help push this over the edge, he can't think they can get that mislynch without scum getting their hands dirty at all, I don't think that works. If kjScum/tomTown, is that a perfectly pure wagon? It would make sense why KJ threw generic shade at the whole thing, but how does GF not bus there and try to salvage what they can by killing D1 early? Grape sounds somewhat resigned to KJ going down there.
IDK, I need to stare at this more
Haha. -I hadn't seen this, but, you're welcome
But... you didn't consider helping Cantrip get his shot through? Despite that being your focus?
Yes, I'm scum and pushed for two of my buddies day 1 and CC'ed scum's probably most powerful role just for funsies. Also stopped in my push for your head and Sir Chris' head to bus my other buddy because half the town was treating me as confirmed town and I needed more cred and then went back to trying to lynch my day 1 scumread, because I want this exact mislynch and not any other like tom. /s
This is very obviously shading, but you haven't payed enough attention to the game to know that I am the moment the least likely person to be scum. Saying "vezok is scum" and giving no other reason except OMGUS is not how town think. This is not solving. This is scum trying to deflect as hard as possible in the hopes they get the mislynch on tom.
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Hitting scum isn't worth it, as it doesn't disrupt them and otherwise doesn't do anything to directly hurt them. Hitting town isn't really worth it either, as it could just get them killed if protectives guess right.
I'm really just leaning to never using it ever.
Don't pretend like you can't be scum. Like, only scum actually know your alignment. You being scum isn't impossible.
This is why I'm questioning btw. Becasue you posted this: Whhere you seem to be saying you don't think I'm scum but you're still pushing me.
Nah, I legit think he's scum for fake claim plus behavior.
(I do kinda think that his playstyle doesn't really warrant any regret if he's mislynched though, but that's not a "He should get lynched because of his playstyle, regardless of alignment." Rather, it's "Even if it is a mislynch, he's kinda walked into that.")
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I denied it and gave my thoughts?
Idk man must mean im scum
Im just kind of a troll.
Im glad the goal of a vig shot isnt "make people happy" because thats apparently impossible
Ive been told i was too slow, too fast, made the day about me, didnt open up for enough discussion, didnt shoot ____
Like, i shot who i shot when i decided.
Like, we lynched grape that day. I just looked he didnt have a single vote when i shot.
Not trying to pass the blame for my shot it was all me.
But **** off with that
That post was made after your wagon analysis. I thought you the effort put into the wagon analysis might have been coming from town you, but you kinda disappeared and I thought about it more and you're still my biggest scum read.
And yeah, I am claiming that there is absolutely no reason to question me. I have been right about all my reads this game. I have hounded scum for the entirety of this game. If you want to question me you'll need some pretty big reasons for it and me scumreading you is not one of them.
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Your shot was too slow and too fast. You waited a whole week (an entire half of D2) to even pick a target, and then couldn't wait an afternoon for dk to actually post a response.
No, you gave us 20 posts to react between "hey I'm looking at dk" and "oops I guess he's dead". Only 5 players even had a chance to post in there! I certainly would have said something, but I went out that day with dk not being a target, and came home to him dead already!
So cut this fake indignant bs
Could you go into more detail on your decision making process last Night after grape's flip?
Did you consider anyone individually?
If you're town, that's not a bad idea
Did you think about claiming at all after Vez's early claim? -I don't think there is a written rule about it being necessary to claim if you need to Lynch townies for an ability either, but Vez figured that out.
When you are dealing with scumbuddies, you have like three choices. (1) Town-read them (aka powerwolf) (2) Scum-read them (aka bus) or (3) Waffle/Ignore them as much as possible. You also usually don't play it the same way with all your scum-buddies.
Looking at Tom -> Az on D1. Tom started by calling Az "pretty Town" in #96 on 8/5.
Next time he interacts with Az, it's to vote Az in #799 on 8/13 for the reason "Choo Choo." Az was the leading wagon at that moment. This is not exactly a blistering takedown.
He continues to not actually say anything about Az and then unvotes him to vote for Dking in #835. This is before Az has claimed.
After Az claimed, Tom did express some thoughts that Az was more likely to be scum than Vez. based on the mechanics. Still did not vote him. Said he wasn't too worried b/c with the claim it was likely Az couldn't' do anything until D3.
And then joined the Fuwa counter-wagon at #1146. Reasoning there was "lol" :popcorneating. This despite his statement that he actually didn't think Fuwa was more likely scum than Az. Says he voted Fuwa because it was a good counterwagon and Fuwa's "popin" was scummy.
And then the day ended and he "Hammered" Az after Az was already lynched.
None of that is inspiring.
Grape -> Tom. It's worth noting that Grape was claiming he thought Tom was scummy D1, but on D2 did not start with voting him or challenging him in basically anyway. He starts D2 saying he would vote for LW and Chris.
Somewhat strangely, he has NO apparent interest in Tom's claimed Day-kill. I do not see anywhere where GF comments on it, or suggests how Tom should use it, or says anything at all about it. I don't actually know what to make of that.
He has a few very innocuous questions for Tom while voting for other people.
Then, after he gets pressured to claim, he gives his big "reads" post:
"Tom is Tom" is a bit of a red flag for me. GF is still strongly pushing Chris.
Until, at the very end of the day, GF then abruptly votes Tom. I don't remember how much of a viable counterwagon Tom was at that moment in time, but this kind of self-preservation vote doesn't really move the needle for me.
Tom -> GF
Tom doesn't have anything to say about GF at the beginning of D2. He goes through his re-reads, without having much comment about GF, and comes down on
As his final reads. With Grape right above his cut-off line.
Ends up shooting Dking. His next vote goes to Chris.
Shadow asks him specifically about Grape and Tom's response in #2031 is that he "couldn't tell you a grape post tbh"
Tom then apparently does a re-read of Grape in #2041. It's kind of waffly, but it does conclude with "Grape can die." Does not vote him at this time.
He switches his vote to GF at #2084, with no further comments about Grape.
His final assessment at #2250 is:
So, he's on the wagon, but he wasn't really pushing it very hard.
This is what I am seeing, and I don't see anything here that couldn't be a scum/scum. The strangest thing like I said is how GF completely avoided commenting on Tom's day-kill. I have mixed feelings on that.
Grape votes Tom here. But then almost immediately moves the vote to shadow. Notably, vaimes had just moved his vote from Tom to Az, shifting their counts from 3-4 to 2-5(whether or not grape saw that move before voting Tom changes things a lot here).
If KJ or Chris is scum, it's possible GF was hesitant to put a third scum on shadows wagon.
If GF saw vaimes move his vote, this looks like GF wanting to be on record against Tom before pushing the shadow counterwagon.
But, if GF didn't see vaimes vote, this looks much better for Tom. GF pushing Tom as a third viable wagon, then seeing vaimes pull his vote, making the push less viable, then going after shadow would be pretty indicative of townTom.
Unfortunately, I don't see any indication of if GF saw the vaimes VB vote move.
This is when grape voted Tom again.
I understand him pulling the vote from shadow, as that was going nowhere. But is grape trying to start a counterwagon here, or just wanting to distance before Az goes down?
Im not indignant though. Just annoyed.
Im sure theres better things to push me for than the one time this game i buckled down and did work
Im pretty used to scum ignoring me except to push me. Im hard to react to.
From my end, i didnt really catch either on behavior. Az i saw cases during my catchup but already pretty much knew he was scum because claims. Grape i knew was playing champs and decided to wait til he started playing, and from that talk with shadow saw how aligned he was with az.
Its not inspiring but i got there on both
But yeah, with Tom being likely vanilla at that point, grape sacrificing Tom is perfectly reasonable
And the general consensus seemed to be that the shot should go into the players who avoided voting Az. And yet...
Other than Chris, was anyone saying dk was a good shot? I know I opposed that idea multiple times
Maybe make a case or something
Still want to murder kj tho
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Two scum left, if Tom is scum, only one buddy able to try and direct a counterwagon or energy elsewhere, meaning if the town is content then that’s could explain it.
If Tom is town, scum could either be vocal about the lynch, or trying not to draw attention to themselves so as to make this day turn sour for them.
In either scenario, there’s not a lot of town conversing happening, which is annoying.
I still don’t think it’s Tom, and I think the most compelling stuff against him is the interactions that Axel posted. Behaviorally, I’ve liked him, I think his process for the daykill makes a lot of sense from town Tom; it would have been a very good fake job on the part of scum Tom. I think there are some decent reasons to look at a few people for possible deepwolf status, but not today; I think today we need to cut the PoE down some more.
As such, I will only be voting for Osie/last or KJ if not one of those.
I have yet to see compelling “not in the PoE” arguments for any of those three, despite there being some points in their favor.
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Maybe, I'm still interested in whatever Cantrip has
still not a wolf, kinda sound like Chris now
Night one I considered Tom for a second but decided it wasn't worth it. I was town reading him back then.
It's like, if we're lynching in Tom/Osie/Killjoy then, fine? I would put Chris in there also but for his claim, and that's maybe not a great reason to leave him out, but it's a reason.
Work has suddenly ramped up. I should have an opportunity tonight or tomorrow morning. Sorry.
Dkings started it noting kjs townread of him when he hadnt said anything. Everyone else either sheeped that or, ahem, just joined because it was the first wagon. I know thats me i assume shadow too.
Kjs next chunk of posting is basically reflexive push on the wagon itself but not actually the people on it?
Like he kind of comes away scumreading me/axel but he doesnt do anything with it.
I kind of like his toneread of fuwa being overly innocent. Its just an analogy and explaining it i guess, but its a point he wants to get across. doesnt feel partnery
He handles az and grape the same. Basically "theyre good they should be doing more" and *crickets* when they dont.
His d1 shadow push is ~fine, if a little gleeful. But it turns into the excuse to defend az, because they agree.
And az flip doesnt change his scumread of shadow d2. So az is town because shadows a wolf but the reverse *crickets*
Only thing az flip does change for him is fuwa town for being the counterwagon. He only gives the wagon itself cursory examination
He does the little page by page thing which i can totally see kj doing as either alignment, but im just gonna call the fact he stopped the page before his wagon scummy. But not really because it was silly anyway
Literally defends grape for defending him
And now pushing me for not shooting him basically? But hes also openly popcorning "tom vs cantrip" and i hate it
Im not sure the hyper self-focus is super meaningful in and of itself, but that and the mentor chat+page by page+hard votaling add up to looking like he just doesnt know what to talk about.
And his reads and pushes are just so wolfy. Defended both scum for pretty questionable reasons, pushing all town afaict
I still dont have a huge behavioral read here tbh. That little chunk a few pages back felt like kj/osi team tryna push my lynch through, but im probably not that important and im eh on them being partners from kjs side overall
Theres like, a chance hes just spectacularly wrong town. But him being a wolf seems more likely aorn.
I feel it most in the wifomy posts i think. There was one about scum treating him like a buddy on purpose thats just. Lol.
I dont much care about the claim. Like, flavor should clearly be boggles on that but whatever. Its possible that whatever version of that role that scumkj wouldnt claim is what ****ed with cantrip but thats all speculation.
After that, I just couldn't really find a good target.
@tom: I'll respond to ^^^^ tomorrow. I have work early in the morning and I'm tired.
Vote Count 3.5
tomsloger (4): Vaimes, Killjoy, osieorb18, Cantripmancer
Killjoy (3): tomsloger, Sir Chris, vezokpiraka
osieorb18 (3): Axelrod, KittyCupCake, shadowlancerx
Abstain (1): Lastwhisper
With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
Day 3 will end at 11:59PM EST, Wednesday, September 18th. Here is the deadline.
This... isn't enough. You saw Tom as a good analyst who you were kinda townreading -okay. Did you consider anyone else? Who? Why? You said you rethought things after your realization -how so? Walk me through your process with baby steps.
He can't cause he is lying. This is just bullhit to fill the posts.
Tom's post sums it up perfectly. The only real push KJ has ever even tried this game is on me. He has played a textbook scummy game with bad interactions with all dead scum and nonsensical stances.
People voting tom: Tom's game make sense as town. Everything he did, while questionable, can come from town tom. What KJ did has no chance of coming from town KJ.
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Kj (7): dkings, Rhand, Cantrip, Axel, tom, shadow, vezok
Cantrip (2): Fuwa, Vaimes
Grape (1): Chris
Fuwa (1): Kcc
Rhand (1): Grape
shadow (1): beeboy
Syrenz (1): Azrael
tom (1): Syrenz
Abstain (1):Kj
#825 (preclaim az peak)
Azrael (8): Cantrip, shadow, Kcc, Vaimes, Rhand, tom, dkings, vezok
shadow (4): Chris, Azrael, kj, beeboy
tom (2): Axel, Grape
Chris (1): Fuwa
Abstain (1): Last
Dual fuwa peaks:
Fuwa (7): Grape, Chris, shadow, tom, Cantrip, Kcc, vezok
Azrael (3): Vaimes, Rhand, dkings
shadow (2): kj, beeboy
Chris (1): Fuwa
Vaimes (1): Azrael
tom (1): Axel
Abstain (1): Last
Fuwa (7): Grape, Chris, shadow, tom, Cantrip, vezok, Last
Azrael (5): Vaimes, Rhand, dkings, Kcc, Axel,
shadow (2): kj, beeboy
Chris (1): Fuwa
Vaimes (1): Azrael
D1 final
Azrael (9): Vaimes, Rhand, dkings, Kcc, Axel, Fuwa, shadow, Cantrip, kj
Fuwa (5): Grape, Chris, tom, vezok, Last
shadow (1): beeboy
Vaimes (1): Azrael
I dont think its super meaningful because lol page 3, but i do think that wagon on kj is all town. And 6/7 of it is on az to force the claim.
(Said i wasnt gonna defend anymore but these votecounts where i saw dkings surrounded by people i think are town are a big part of why i shot him. Scum not voting scum as a general rule this game fools that sort of votal analysis though)
Fuwa wagon:
Grape was first vote but the actual wagon happened after, when fuwa popped in and <was scummy>
So not really counting it for much
Chris being next on, and staying forever, is probably not w/w. You could say bussing the weaker buddy but if chris made the choice to powerwolf i think he just goes all the way.
Shadow/cantrip/kcc are the people that went az to fuwa and back to az. Which is, like, always town if osislot is town and fairly towny if osi is a wolf short of some shenanigans to force w/w wagons and just nah in general theres never a plan to take a dive for someone else...
Vezoks fine. Mechanical vote.
Last could maybe be a fuwa busser? Certainly the most likely in the wagon proper. But havent seen any bussing yet.
A little sus if osis town as well
On the final az vote, its mostly the people that actually made it happen.
Vaimes and axel pushed him much of the day
See above for shadow/cantrip/kcc
Fuwas vote there probably isnt AI. Self pres, in general, right thing to do there regardless of alignment.
KJs, after it was decided. If hes scum presumably an attempt to salvage <something> from the day
A lot of votals i look at are a bunch of my townreads voting a bunch of dead scum and scummy people.
Feels good
I'm willing to let him try while waiting for Cantrips input.
I'll say I haven't liked what I've seen so far. Tom was under enough suspicion D1 that I didn't see him as a reasonable scum target N1, and a light town read doesn't feel like a real reason
I'm just now as I'm writing this realizing that maybe I would claim who I targeted at that point. So that doesn't happen. IDK if this is smart but I'm a 'claim only when necessary' player but I guess it would be necessary at that point. That's the point when the detriment to the town outweighs the benefit of scum not being able to put the setup together quite as easily. And the possiblilty of town wasting shots/nights outweighs the benefit of scum wasting a roleblock or even a rolecop or something crazier. But most importantly, the detriment of protectives possibly correctly saving someone, but having it prevented outweighs... everything else.
I know you haven't been here, KCC, but recently in post games I've been receiving some flak (understatement) for my play... most recently was the endgame of Death In The Family, where I basically speedhammered the last two town. People were like... really mad. I've decided to avoid that outcome if I can.
I feel like you're looking for something like "I specifically considered Cantrip, but decided..." But that never happened. After I realized how bad my role was, I started looking at what could go wrong if I targeted people. Stopped docs on town, stopped investigatives on scum... it's just not worth it. Not unless there's a decent benefit. In most cases.... no.
That brings me to Grape. His coroner shot I thought would help because scum already have a bunch of setup info in knowing all their own roles. I thought that:
A) seeing Rhand + DKing's roles in the thread might help give some insight into what is all in this game. I'm terrible at setup gaming, but other's aren't. Maybe they can do something with it.
B) Grape is an upper-mid tier player. I'd say B. Sometimes he's pretty good. Sometimes he tunnels/gets on his little crazy train. As such, I didn't think he was a high value doc target. Targeting him probably wouldn't have stopped a doc from saving him from scum killing him.
He fit all the criteria that I was looking for. But then he got lynched and was scum. So go me and my scumreading abilities.
Anyway, now it's back to no one being worth it to me. Hopefully that makes sense.
If you're town, I think you made a decent decision in holding it.
If you're scum, this is pretty well done.
What were your initial feelings on the role when you read your PM?
Also, people got mad cause you speedhammered in LyLo. That doesn't mean you never have to vote again.
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