Tom, it really seems like you ought to be more interested in how Cantrip keeps getting a "Not Infect" result on you, and - especially if you think Cantrip is still Town - what that means for the rest of the game.
How exactly does that work, in your opinion?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Tom, it really seems like you ought to be more interested in how Cantrip keeps getting a "Not Infect" result on you, and - especially if you think Cantrip is still Town - what that means for the rest of the game.
How exactly does that work, in your opinion?
its literally "Cantrip is being messed with and kj is scum" or "im being busdriven and chris is scum"
Dont think cantrip lying makes sense at all. Maybe some amount of that is just confirmation bias but cantrip hasnt shown any signs of being able to fool me. idk if you read the off the grid game where cantrip/shadow team had to block and nk me n1, but my iso that game is a full tutorial of how to catch cantrip.
But aside from that i cant see what his plan would be.
Slightly down on him mechanically today but even that is mitigated by towniness of the fakeclaim with vaimes.
Thats pretty much my legacy right there. Over everything.
Cantrip still town. Always scum in kj/chris. Maybe both.
Im heavily town on you/vez/shadow but those are secondary.
Tom, it really seems like you ought to be more interested in how Cantrip keeps getting a "Not Infect" result on you, and - especially if you think Cantrip is still Town - what that means for the rest of the game.
How exactly does that work, in your opinion?
its literally "Cantrip is being messed with and kj is scum" or "im being busdriven and chris is scum"
Well, I'm pretty sure the Busdrive scenario is not on the table anymore. Chris demonstrated a correct track result, which doesn't make him Town, but does mean that he wasn't busdriving or re-directing. He's never stone cold guessing that KCC is targeting two people last night, not to mention naming the correct two people. How would that even work?
So your theory is that Cantrip is still "being messed with" and that Killjoy is lying about making Cantrip un-messable with. Is that just the only possibility from your side?
Dont think cantrip lying makes sense at all. Maybe some amount of that is just confirmation bias but cantrip hasnt shown any signs of being able to fool me. idk if you read the off the grid game where cantrip/shadow team had to block and nk me n1, but my iso that game is a full tutorial of how to catch cantrip.
But aside from that i cant see what his plan would be.
Slightly down on him mechanically today but even that is mitigated by towniness of the fakeclaim with vaimes.
Thats pretty much my legacy right there. Over everything.
Cantrip still town. Always scum in kj/chris. Maybe both.
Im heavily town on you/vez/shadow but those are secondary.
I am genuinely trying to imagine the scum having a re-director (seemingly Killjoy in this scenario?) and spending the past two nights trying to keep a Town-you alive by redirecting the presumed Vigilante. They were down two people. In what world does that happen?
And this is completely aside from that whole other thing where the presumed vigilante would get re-directed without knowing that it had happened, ending up with completely misleading results.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Tom, it really seems like you ought to be more interested in how Cantrip keeps getting a "Not Infect" result on you, and - especially if you think Cantrip is still Town - what that means for the rest of the game.
How exactly does that work, in your opinion?
its literally "Cantrip is being messed with and kj is scum" or "im being busdriven and chris is scum"
Well, I'm pretty sure the Busdrive scenario is not on the table anymore. Chris demonstrated a correct track result, which doesn't make him Town, but does mean that he wasn't busdriving or re-directing. He's never stone cold guessing that KCC is targeting two people last night, not to mention naming the correct two people. How would that even work?
So your theory is that Cantrip is still "being messed with" and that Killjoy is lying about making Cantrip un-messable with. Is that just the only possibility from your side?
Dont think cantrip lying makes sense at all. Maybe some amount of that is just confirmation bias but cantrip hasnt shown any signs of being able to fool me. idk if you read the off the grid game where cantrip/shadow team had to block and nk me n1, but my iso that game is a full tutorial of how to catch cantrip.
But aside from that i cant see what his plan would be.
Slightly down on him mechanically today but even that is mitigated by towniness of the fakeclaim with vaimes.
Thats pretty much my legacy right there. Over everything.
Cantrip still town. Always scum in kj/chris. Maybe both.
Im heavily town on you/vez/shadow but those are secondary.
I am genuinely trying to imagine the scum having a re-director (seemingly Killjoy in this scenario?) and spending the past two nights trying to keep a Town-you alive by redirecting the presumed Vigilante. They were down two people. In what world does that happen?
And this is completely aside from that whole other thing where the presumed vigilante would get re-directed without knowing that it had happened, ending up with completely misleading results.
listen man
I dont know what roles they have, just the info im being given. Ive already said redirector looks most right to me. Not sure how else you think theyd have used it other than messing with cantrip but
The combination of chris results and you and cantrips neighborhood info probably makes it just kj. Thus the occams razor vote.
I'm trying to sort through what everyone's claims mean. Chris saying KCC successfully targeted Tom means that tom was not busdrove.
So it's still possible that Cantrip is lying about the Not Infect result. But not likely. The only thing that doesn't make sense here is why tom is falseclaiming name here. It doesn't make sense if a namecop is in the game. Has there ever been a game where the scum get safeclaims that aren't safe, but aren't told that they're not safe?
I need to compile claims and night actions to figure out what's going on here? I still think Cantrip going all in on lynching town tom is unlikely, but I'd like to think about it more.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think that’s what still gets me, why give fake claims when decks matter for mechanics, and flavor is literally irrelevant for alignment? It doesn’t make sense.
Best i can come up with is chris theory that scumtom gained the kill from azrael dying plus axel theory that scumtoms role is <modern deck that doesnt have any insta win combo OR removal spells>
OK
Vaimes shot was ass, the whole reason for all this ***** on Tom was because of him and Cantrip, possible he got redirected? else the shot makes no sense, unless Vaimes was that scared off deep wolf kcc
if what Cantrip says is true, then allowing the shot on kcc to go off is just bad play, we couldve been done with Tom overall regardless of his flip, but now we almost have to lynch him which again will suck if he flips town
Mechanically he looks bad, but overall content looks better than KJ's
then we have Vezok, "ohh abilities are *****, ok maybe one isnt", and continues to make poor votes like voting Osie early and putting Tom at L1 one day in? Like if his abilities are so ***** why is he putting us into *****ty spots, but ohh its fine, at least one is good now
I understand paranoia, but like we should be focusing on the PoE we have, but nah, vaimes shoots kcc, and chris tracks Kcc
@Chris why didnt you track KJ, why did you track Kcc?
I want those answers before we end this day, there is literally no god damn reason to end this day early
I doubt Cantrip is lying in the world where he is a wolf, it's more likely that he has mechanical abilities backing him up, aka another member, so he can safely claim the whole "not infect" claim, is Cantrip's wolf game that good? maybe, but I still think hes just town here
at least one wolf always has to be in Killjoy/Chris, if Tom flips town, if Tom flips wolf, then idk, I havent really thought about who the last wolf is with him
lastly, its doubtful Crossbell provides fake claims if they can just be outted by a town ability, I already stated this before
This game just got too mechanical for me, this is why I like basic games :sob:
anyways don't ******* hammer, at least not until Chris gets back, that's actually insane since his answer will probably be the deciding factor on Tom's fate
I also don't understand why everyone is just ok with Killjoy???
will be back the rest of the night, idk if ill post though, and ill be on tomorrow afternoon
Best i can come up with is chris theory that scumtom gained the kill from azrael dying plus axel theory that scumtoms role is <modern deck that doesnt have any insta win combo OR removal spells>
Chris tracked KCC to Tom, Killjoy made Cantrip Strong-willed
Id probably have to believe the last two wolves are playing some super crazy 4D chess now, just to get us to lynch town!Tom if I really think about this whole non-sense
also, this combination always makes Tom a wolf here unless one of them is lying, so like if we don't lynch Tom, it should always be one of the two
either way, I'd still rather us wait till after Chris comes back at the least, I don't want to have to mindlessly watch this game because of a fear that today just gets abruptly ended by a hammer
I think that’s what still gets me, why give fake claims when decks matter for mechanics, and flavor is literally irrelevant for alignment? It doesn’t make sense.
Well, my issue is - though I could understand giving scum "safe" claims to help them avoid being targeted by abilities that need to know your deck - it's not really "safe" is it, if the role gets told you're not what you claimed to be and you get exposed as a liar.
But Az did lie.
Cantrip is the only person who has claimed to care about decks. Does anyone else want to pipe up and volunteer that they have a role or at least one ability that cares about what deck someone is?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@last: KJ claimed ascetic, he couldn’t be targeted by Chris.
@Axel: iirc, and I should go check, Az claimed tron, and then was asked specifically what sort of tron in a way that probably tipped him off that someone wanted his exact deck, which could be why he lied.
One of my random abilities is a deck cop. All other 4 abilities are normal abilities that don't care about what deck a person is so the first few days I thought the ability was useless. The fact that Cantrip is the only player in the game who seems to care about decks is even weirder.
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I'm wondering if it could have something to do with the fact that Tron had to play it's cards publicly in the thread like that. And if the Tron person didn't want to identify himself they would need a false claim.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Anyway I chose KCC because I couldn't choose KJ and Tom was supposedly used up so even if scum probably not moving, figured I had a good chance of learning something with KCC since Vaimes has been muttering about her for days. Guess he decided he had seen enough.
What's interesting to me is I am not sure I believe cantripmancer at all because of how I got my information back. Like, my night action results were as not vague as possible.
So for the 8th day running:
##vote: KJ
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Hmm. Okay. So Cantrip didn’t get killed, yet Vaimes did. The only person who knew Vaimes was actually the vig is Cantrip. Ahhhh ugh. I’m not sure how Cantrip’s role fits as scum though.
Vaimes and I talked about that (as in: he pondered if he got killed if I was more likely scum because I was the only one who he told). I can only point to his "red check result on Tom" posts as a possible culprit (those were made before we decided to have me fake claim his role).
Yeah, I'm obviously playing the deep deep wolf game by bussing my buddies and defending townies with all the info of my role on the table because I'm crazy like that.
Vaimes didn't go into his reasoning, but for me, you've felt EXTREMELY confident in some of your reads, to the point that I wonder how you feel that confident.
Quote from Vez »
Vaimes died for no apparent reason, yet you knew he was a vig. Kcc didn't know this and is also town. You are somehow a roleblocker that got the same wrong result on tom twice. Like everything is just so terribly convenient to show that tom is scum and you are town.
I'm also afraid of lynching tom today, him flipping town and infect and going after cantrip tomorrow and him also flipping town although I think that's probably impossible.
I can't control how convenient it looks to you; this is my best guess at what happened based on what I know.
It's somewhat easier to accept because we know Az also lied about his deck. Thusfar, Cantrip's is the only claim we have that cares what deck someone is, yes?
Yes, afaik, but my question is WHY would Az have lied about his deck name? Unless scum were specifically told "you may not want to trueclaim your deckname", that doesn't make any sense (and lol at Az claiming a deckname that Proph says would have functioned identically with regard to my ability).
(A small part of me thinks that cantrip’s knowledge about flavor being relevant to abilities points to him being on a team with Az, or someone else with an ability that also cares being scum.)
I guess this could explain scum being unwilling to claim, if someone on the team has a deckname-relevant ability and they suspected similar abilities on town roles.
Vez, I was NOT informed that I was ascetic last Night.
I asked Proph if Vaimes had died N1 if I would have still been informed about the chat and he said I would not have been, so that at least backs up Tom not getting notification.
I really don't like the path we are taking, but there's just too much weirdness going on here that really needs to be dealt with.
Why in the ever loving **** did Vaimes shoot KCC instead of tom I'll never know, but we have to continue.
I told you: he targeted Wisp N1 before he knew Tom was a dayvig, and then he thought we'd be able to lunch Tom, so he double-tapped his next highest suspect. If he had had a single tap on Tom going into N3 I would have advocated he kill Tom over KCC.
@Cantrip: what’s your read of last? Also, when did your neighborhood with Vaimes start?
Neighborhood started at the end of N1 (literally minutes before D2 opened). Wisp is...still in my PoE because the early Az-Syrenz interaction that I felt never came from buddies only goes so far. There have been several things that have pinged me, but nothing I feel can't have also come from a town!Wisp.
Well, I'm pretty sure the Busdrive scenario is not on the table anymore. Chris demonstrated a correct track result, which doesn't make him Town, but does mean that he wasn't busdriving or re-directing. He's never stone cold guessing that KCC is targeting two people last night, not to mention naming the correct two people. How would that even work?
Given that Chris claimed his results before anything else toDay, I think this is likely accurate, and the busdrive is off the table, which means it's either Tom or KJ.
if what Cantrip says is true, then allowing the shot on kcc to go off is just bad play, we couldve been done with Tom overall regardless of his flip, but now we almost have to lynch him which again will suck if he flips town
We couldn't have been "done" with Tom. Vaimes hadn't targeted him at all. I was pretty miffed that Vaimes didn't target Tom N2 (part of why I still suspected Vaimes), especially since had he been successful it would have eliminated the possibility of a busdrive that Night, but I figured actually eliminating someone from the PoE, even if it were somebody I was mostly townreading, would be better than putting a half-vig on Tom (which would have been a waste, obviously).
@Axel: iirc, and I should go check, Az claimed tron, and then was asked specifically what sort of tron in a way that probably tipped him off that someone wanted his exact deck, which could be why he lied.
Yeah, I was the one who asked, and I almost didn't because I didn't want to tip anyone off to the possibility that lying about it was bad, but there was discussion around then about the cards he claimed and I figured I might be able to hide my question amongst them. I will find it hilarious if that question made the scum team paranoid about true-claiming their deck name and that's why Tom lied.
One of my random abilities is a deck cop. All other 4 abilities are normal abilities that don't care about what deck a person is so the first few days I thought the ability was useless. The fact that Cantrip is the only player in the game who seems to care about decks is even weirder.
A deck cop as in "target a player, learn what deck they are"? Basically my ability without the roleblock (well...no guessing, but same function)?
I still feel like Tom lying, while confusing in motive, is most likely. Like...a non-Tom scumteam would have to include Chris, know that Tom was being busdriven AND that KCC was targeting herself and Tom (so...Axel?), and have Chris falsely report that action being successful while mine failed. All to frame Tom. Twice. The first time with the possibility that I was going to vig Tom. Just...feels so unlikely.
I'm pretty much ready to end the Day with a Tom lunch. If people want more discussion, that's fine, but I don't see my vote moving.
Hope your health issues improve, Chris. Sorry you're having such a hard time recently.
I don't think Cantrip is scum here. Scum Cantrip is sinking a lot of eggs into winning the game right now. After town Tom goes down, he goes after me which might be a thing but it's risky. It goes against the time honored scum tradition of keeping options open.
Additionally on the Tom v Cantrip front, I think Tom is the more likely scum because I 1) do not think all three major washing yesterday were on town. and 2) I don't think my initial wagon was pure, and don't like his assertion that it was. The odds of all 7 people voting me being town are very low.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
My phrasing on Mancer was "I am not sure I believe him."
Not, "I flat out don't believe him."
Difference in degrees and why I am voting for KJ. Also because independently I think KJ has been the scummiest. I understand Tom votes as well, granted, but going to keep on with my reads and see where those land me. Was right about the Osi slot though, so I am no longer 0/1000 this game at least.
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@Chris: I would like your theory on what is going on.
I mean, are you taking the position that you think Tom is Town, and Cantrip's results have been messed with, i.e. re-directed, which means KJ must be scum, because KJ supposedly made Cantrip an Ascetic and if true he would not have been able to be re-directed.
If you don't believe KJ, was there any thought in targeting KJ last night to verify his Ascetic claim? Do you believe the Ascetic part, but think he lied about the ascetic-granting part? And instead he's a re-directer? An Ascetic re-director?
Also, who would be the other scum with KJ here?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
There is too much ****iness going on here. If nobody has roles that care about deck name except cantrip's there is no way tom fakeclaimed his deck name for absolutely no payoff.
And getting caught for it. The chances for this are extrmely small.
[eb]unvote[/b]
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That's not all that much left, I suppose. From my end, it probably does not matter too much if I claim at this juncture or not, but I do not want to speak for someone unclaimed if they believe there is a reason to remain unclaimed at this time. If it won't change who we are lynching, or give us some more direction this night, then it might not help any.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Trying to get into theories about scum play seems... dangerous given the two known flips.
So instead I will give an unusual defense of Tom for everyone: frequency. I was hounding Tom pretty hard to start day 2 as many of you may recall and then I decided "well hold on maybe I am off" which led me more to KJ and then Grapefruit. Knowing my own thinking as I do it is rare that I mess up in that particular way to go from one scum (Tom) to another (Grapefruit) in such a move.
I also think KJ/Tom have no value as buddies because of the end of day 1 with how cute they got with the Az stuff and hammering him. Also several days of wagon dynamics between the two introduces a clear dynamic between those two,
I think KJ always has to be the lynch because we can't have someone messing with results anymore. If KJ is town, then great Vezok and I get night actions. Scum will have to figure something fun out from there. There is no point in lynching anyone but KJ today from my perspective. I haven't found him credibly town at all this game. I'll save my other thoughts for other scenarios since I have a night action and tipping that if I am wrong about KJ is dangerous, so I'll stick with what is in front of me.
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The list of things I would have done differently this game as scum is long (I wouldn't have said I had agreed with Vaimes shooting KCC, for example), but at the end of the day it's all still wifom. Bare minimum, though, I certainly wouldn't have killed Vaimes when he said he was vigging KCC. I would have left him alive to hopefully kill more town. And to catch some of this flak. I guess you could make the argument that I'm scum with Wisp and didn't want him sticking around to double-tap Wisp (or if I'm lying about that, too, whomever Vaimes actually targeted N1), but if that were a concern, I probably would have advocated NKing Vaimes N2.
There is too much ****iness going on here. If nobody has roles that care about deck name except cantrip's there is no way tom fakeclaimed his deck name for absolutely no payoff.
...don't you have an ability that cares about deck names, though?
Maybe I'm overthinking my ability? Like, I saw "roleblock" and thought "blah, I have to target scum or I'm hindering my team more than I'm helping it" but then I thought that maybe the town+ benefit to my ability was to catch scum lying about their deck. Maybe it really is just intended to be a roleblock role, and there's no "oh and you might catch liars, too" aspect. If that's the case, then Shadow would have to be right that the scum team got spooked when I asked Az to specify which Tron, and I caught Tom because he thought (correctly) that I needed his true deck name to target him. But then he had no concerns about claiming Infect, so that has to be a mod-given fakeclaim, and why would Proph provide that if names didn't matter? So I think I just circled back to "there's a reason for scum to lie about their deck"?
The only definite benefit I can see to massclaiming toDay is because full roles aren't revealed, so one of the four unclaimed dying toNight could leave a gap in our picture, but since I'm pretty sure there's at most one scum in those four, I'd sorta like to keep scum guessing and not just hand them a roadmap of who best to kill.
So instead I will give an unusual defense of Tom for everyone: frequency. I was hounding Tom pretty hard to start day 2 as many of you may recall and then I decided "well hold on maybe I am off" which led me more to KJ and then Grapefruit. Knowing my own thinking as I do it is rare that I mess up in that particular way to go from one scum (Tom) to another (Grapefruit) in such a move.
By that same logic, wouldn't it be just as odd for you to move from scum!KJ to scum!Grape that Day?
Quote from Chris »
I also think KJ/Tom have no value as buddies because of the end of day 1 with how cute they got with the Az stuff and hammering him. Also several days of wagon dynamics between the two introduces a clear dynamic between those two,
I agree that they are unlikely to be buddies together, but there almost has to be one scum between them (barring you playing blinding 4D chess with us).
Quote from Chris »
I think KJ always has to be the lynch because we can't have someone messing with results anymore. If KJ is town, then great Vezok and I get night actions. Scum will have to figure something fun out from there. There is no point in lynching anyone but KJ today from my perspective. I haven't found him credibly town at all this game. I'll save my other thoughts for other scenarios since I have a night action and tipping that if I am wrong about KJ is dangerous, so I'll stick with what is in front of me.
KJ (as claimed) can't mess with results except for actions directed at him (he said his "other-acetize" was a 1-shot).
(Regarding massclaim, though, I've been tinfoiling since D2 that Shadow is scum and wants to add another unlocked achievement to his signature: "Win as scum just by saying 'These are not the droids you're looking for' whenever you come under fire." )
Eh, there might be some small utility in my not claiming today. I suppose. Kind of depends.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
"Why would I do this, and I would most likely do that", are just wifomy defenses, like we either believe them or done, cause they arent confirmable
Ive seen Mantichora pull out great defenses as a wolf using those methods,
@Cantrip
Why did Vaimes not target Tom on night 2, the night after he learned that Tom was a vig?
if we lynch a wolf today, then there is highly likely only one wolf alive tomorrow based on the size of this game, so that would be a great time to at least claim deck names, since then in a world where Cantrip is town, he can stop the nightkill, and out the last wolf, which I still think the chances of him being town are higher than him being mafia
I like that Tom isnt trying to push this narrative that Cantrip has to be a wolf, and continues to defend him based on content, looks better for him
the chances of Killjoy lying about the number of shots if he is a wolf is likely, if he's town then it's doubtful he lies after not telling us from the start he is an ascetic
@Chris
If KJ flips town, what then?
from my perspective the PoE is you/kj/Tom, but of course you will remove yourself, so would you vote Tom in all cases tomorrow?
I wonder what everyone's plan going into tomorrow will be based on if killjoy and/or Tom flips town
Feels kinda bad to chain lynches, but in a world where Chris is town, and based on the day 1 hammer shaninagens then one of killjoy/tom is always a wolf, so like imo regardless of what the flip yields today, and confident the other flips red based solely on that
I had almost forgotten about that day 1 hammer and how poor it was,
Like Cantrip is only a wolf if kj is also a wolf, right? It only makes sense that way?
The only other world is Chris lied, and there is a bus driver, but then you have to wonder
In a killjoy scum world, if he's not lying about his role, then a redirector has to exist, and that means it's unlikely that wolves don't have some sort of role cop, which idk if I want to believe
NK anaylsis is wifom, but why didn't the wolves kill Cantrip? Why did they kill vaimes? Unless maybe they knew he was a vig? If they don't have a role cop, then that world only makes sense if someone new he was the vig aka Cantrip
Kj is scum lying about at least the active part of his role that ~redirected cantrip
Or
Chris is scum lying about track results. Except he would know if i got busdrove?
If theyre together they could both technically be telling the truth at least about targets
Other option is cantrip, which is a bit more likely now rolewise but still doesnt make sense behaviorally.
Think im just gonna
vote kj here. Occams razor and *****
Last might be more likely atp? Could have voted kj at any time yesterday but voted osi as soon as i moved basically
I really don't like the path we are taking, but there's just too much weirdness going on here that really needs to be dealt with.
Why in the ever loving **** did Vaimes shoot KCC instead of tom I'll never know, but we have to continue.
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Today should have been a chance to lynch scum
How exactly does that work, in your opinion?
Dont think cantrip lying makes sense at all. Maybe some amount of that is just confirmation bias but cantrip hasnt shown any signs of being able to fool me. idk if you read the off the grid game where cantrip/shadow team had to block and nk me n1, but my iso that game is a full tutorial of how to catch cantrip.
But aside from that i cant see what his plan would be.
Slightly down on him mechanically today but even that is mitigated by towniness of the fakeclaim with vaimes.
Thats pretty much my legacy right there. Over everything.
Cantrip still town. Always scum in kj/chris. Maybe both.
Im heavily town on you/vez/shadow but those are secondary.
So no info there
So your theory is that Cantrip is still "being messed with" and that Killjoy is lying about making Cantrip un-messable with. Is that just the only possibility from your side?
I am genuinely trying to imagine the scum having a re-director (seemingly Killjoy in this scenario?) and spending the past two nights trying to keep a Town-you alive by redirecting the presumed Vigilante. They were down two people. In what world does that happen?
And this is completely aside from that whole other thing where the presumed vigilante would get re-directed without knowing that it had happened, ending up with completely misleading results.
I dont know what roles they have, just the info im being given. Ive already said redirector looks most right to me. Not sure how else you think theyd have used it other than messing with cantrip but
The combination of chris results and you and cantrips neighborhood info probably makes it just kj. Thus the occams razor vote.
Doubtful it happens again, didn't even expect Osie to randomly get hammered after I left the thread
I cant focus on the thread in detail while on mobile
I'm trying to sort through what everyone's claims mean. Chris saying KCC successfully targeted Tom means that tom was not busdrove.
So it's still possible that Cantrip is lying about the Not Infect result. But not likely. The only thing that doesn't make sense here is why tom is falseclaiming name here. It doesn't make sense if a namecop is in the game. Has there ever been a game where the scum get safeclaims that aren't safe, but aren't told that they're not safe?
I need to compile claims and night actions to figure out what's going on here? I still think Cantrip going all in on lynching town tom is unlikely, but I'd like to think about it more.
But like
?
But dont think me being infect or vig or whatever is particularly AI anyway this whole thing is so weird to be lynched over
Vaimes shot was ass, the whole reason for all this ***** on Tom was because of him and Cantrip, possible he got redirected? else the shot makes no sense, unless Vaimes was that scared off deep wolf kcc
if what Cantrip says is true, then allowing the shot on kcc to go off is just bad play, we couldve been done with Tom overall regardless of his flip, but now we almost have to lynch him which again will suck if he flips town
Mechanically he looks bad, but overall content looks better than KJ's
then we have Vezok, "ohh abilities are *****, ok maybe one isnt", and continues to make poor votes like voting Osie early and putting Tom at L1 one day in? Like if his abilities are so ***** why is he putting us into *****ty spots, but ohh its fine, at least one is good now
I understand paranoia, but like we should be focusing on the PoE we have, but nah, vaimes shoots kcc, and chris tracks Kcc
@Chris why didnt you track KJ, why did you track Kcc?
I want those answers before we end this day, there is literally no god damn reason to end this day early
I doubt Cantrip is lying in the world where he is a wolf, it's more likely that he has mechanical abilities backing him up, aka another member, so he can safely claim the whole "not infect" claim, is Cantrip's wolf game that good? maybe, but I still think hes just town here
at least one wolf always has to be in Killjoy/Chris, if Tom flips town, if Tom flips wolf, then idk, I havent really thought about who the last wolf is with him
lastly, its doubtful Crossbell provides fake claims if they can just be outted by a town ability, I already stated this before
This game just got too mechanical for me, this is why I like basic games :sob:
anyways don't ******* hammer, at least not until Chris gets back, that's actually insane since his answer will probably be the deciding factor on Tom's fate
I also don't understand why everyone is just ok with Killjoy???
will be back the rest of the night, idk if ill post though, and ill be on tomorrow afternoon
Id probably have to believe the last two wolves are playing some super crazy 4D chess now, just to get us to lynch town!Tom if I really think about this whole non-sense
also, this combination always makes Tom a wolf here unless one of them is lying, so like if we don't lynch Tom, it should always be one of the two
either way, I'd still rather us wait till after Chris comes back at the least, I don't want to have to mindlessly watch this game because of a fear that today just gets abruptly ended by a hammer
But Az did lie.
Cantrip is the only person who has claimed to care about decks. Does anyone else want to pipe up and volunteer that they have a role or at least one ability that cares about what deck someone is?
@Axel: iirc, and I should go check, Az claimed tron, and then was asked specifically what sort of tron in a way that probably tipped him off that someone wanted his exact deck, which could be why he lied.
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Anyway I chose KCC because I couldn't choose KJ and Tom was supposedly used up so even if scum probably not moving, figured I had a good chance of learning something with KCC since Vaimes has been muttering about her for days. Guess he decided he had seen enough.
What's interesting to me is I am not sure I believe cantripmancer at all because of how I got my information back. Like, my night action results were as not vague as possible.
So for the 8th day running:
##vote: KJ
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Vote Count 4.2
tomsloger (2): Cantripmancer, vezokpiraka
Killjoy (2): tomsloger, Sir Chris
Abstain (5): Axelrod, shadowlancerx, vezokpiraka, Lastwhisper, Killjoy
With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
Day 4 will end at 11:59PM EST, Friday, September 27th.
.
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Either way, *Reads while post a 3rd time* I still ask my question.
Vaimes didn't go into his reasoning, but for me, you've felt EXTREMELY confident in some of your reads, to the point that I wonder how you feel that confident.
I can't control how convenient it looks to you; this is my best guess at what happened based on what I know.
Yes, afaik, but my question is WHY would Az have lied about his deck name? Unless scum were specifically told "you may not want to trueclaim your deckname", that doesn't make any sense (and lol at Az claiming a deckname that Proph says would have functioned identically with regard to my ability).
I guess this could explain scum being unwilling to claim, if someone on the team has a deckname-relevant ability and they suspected similar abilities on town roles.
Vez, I was NOT informed that I was ascetic last Night.
I asked Proph if Vaimes had died N1 if I would have still been informed about the chat and he said I would not have been, so that at least backs up Tom not getting notification.
Ok, but if you're town, you're about to be mislunched, which would mean we're in lylo toMorrow. You seem pretty chill with that possibility.
I told you: he targeted Wisp N1 before he knew Tom was a dayvig, and then he thought we'd be able to lunch Tom, so he double-tapped his next highest suspect. If he had had a single tap on Tom going into N3 I would have advocated he kill Tom over KCC.
Neighborhood started at the end of N1 (literally minutes before D2 opened). Wisp is...still in my PoE because the early Az-Syrenz interaction that I felt never came from buddies only goes so far. There have been several things that have pinged me, but nothing I feel can't have also come from a town!Wisp.
Given that Chris claimed his results before anything else toDay, I think this is likely accurate, and the busdrive is off the table, which means it's either Tom or KJ.
We couldn't have been "done" with Tom. Vaimes hadn't targeted him at all. I was pretty miffed that Vaimes didn't target Tom N2 (part of why I still suspected Vaimes), especially since had he been successful it would have eliminated the possibility of a busdrive that Night, but I figured actually eliminating someone from the PoE, even if it were somebody I was mostly townreading, would be better than putting a half-vig on Tom (which would have been a waste, obviously).
Yeah, I was the one who asked, and I almost didn't because I didn't want to tip anyone off to the possibility that lying about it was bad, but there was discussion around then about the cards he claimed and I figured I might be able to hide my question amongst them. I will find it hilarious if that question made the scum team paranoid about true-claiming their deck name and that's why Tom lied.
A deck cop as in "target a player, learn what deck they are"? Basically my ability without the roleblock (well...no guessing, but same function)?
I still feel like Tom lying, while confusing in motive, is most likely. Like...a non-Tom scumteam would have to include Chris, know that Tom was being busdriven AND that KCC was targeting herself and Tom (so...Axel?), and have Chris falsely report that action being successful while mine failed. All to frame Tom. Twice. The first time with the possibility that I was going to vig Tom. Just...feels so unlikely.
I'm pretty much ready to end the Day with a Tom lunch. If people want more discussion, that's fine, but I don't see my vote moving.
Hope your health issues improve, Chris. Sorry you're having such a hard time recently.
I don't think Cantrip is scum here. Scum Cantrip is sinking a lot of eggs into winning the game right now. After town Tom goes down, he goes after me which might be a thing but it's risky. It goes against the time honored scum tradition of keeping options open.
Additionally on the Tom v Cantrip front, I think Tom is the more likely scum because I 1) do not think all three major washing yesterday were on town. and 2) I don't think my initial wagon was pure, and don't like his assertion that it was. The odds of all 7 people voting me being town are very low.
Not, "I flat out don't believe him."
Difference in degrees and why I am voting for KJ. Also because independently I think KJ has been the scummiest. I understand Tom votes as well, granted, but going to keep on with my reads and see where those land me. Was right about the Osi slot though, so I am no longer 0/1000 this game at least.
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I mean, are you taking the position that you think Tom is Town, and Cantrip's results have been messed with, i.e. re-directed, which means KJ must be scum, because KJ supposedly made Cantrip an Ascetic and if true he would not have been able to be re-directed.
If you don't believe KJ, was there any thought in targeting KJ last night to verify his Ascetic claim? Do you believe the Ascetic part, but think he lied about the ascetic-granting part? And instead he's a re-directer? An Ascetic re-director?
Also, who would be the other scum with KJ here?
There is too much ****iness going on here. If nobody has roles that care about deck name except cantrip's there is no way tom fakeclaimed his deck name for absolutely no payoff.
And getting caught for it. The chances for this are extrmely small.
[eb]unvote[/b]
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Me
Shadow
Vez (partial)
Last Whisper
That's not all that much left, I suppose. From my end, it probably does not matter too much if I claim at this juncture or not, but I do not want to speak for someone unclaimed if they believe there is a reason to remain unclaimed at this time. If it won't change who we are lynching, or give us some more direction this night, then it might not help any.
So instead I will give an unusual defense of Tom for everyone: frequency. I was hounding Tom pretty hard to start day 2 as many of you may recall and then I decided "well hold on maybe I am off" which led me more to KJ and then Grapefruit. Knowing my own thinking as I do it is rare that I mess up in that particular way to go from one scum (Tom) to another (Grapefruit) in such a move.
I also think KJ/Tom have no value as buddies because of the end of day 1 with how cute they got with the Az stuff and hammering him. Also several days of wagon dynamics between the two introduces a clear dynamic between those two,
I think KJ always has to be the lynch because we can't have someone messing with results anymore. If KJ is town, then great Vezok and I get night actions. Scum will have to figure something fun out from there. There is no point in lynching anyone but KJ today from my perspective. I haven't found him credibly town at all this game. I'll save my other thoughts for other scenarios since I have a night action and tipping that if I am wrong about KJ is dangerous, so I'll stick with what is in front of me.
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...don't you have an ability that cares about deck names, though?
Maybe I'm overthinking my ability? Like, I saw "roleblock" and thought "blah, I have to target scum or I'm hindering my team more than I'm helping it" but then I thought that maybe the town+ benefit to my ability was to catch scum lying about their deck. Maybe it really is just intended to be a roleblock role, and there's no "oh and you might catch liars, too" aspect. If that's the case, then Shadow would have to be right that the scum team got spooked when I asked Az to specify which Tron, and I caught Tom because he thought (correctly) that I needed his true deck name to target him. But then he had no concerns about claiming Infect, so that has to be a mod-given fakeclaim, and why would Proph provide that if names didn't matter? So I think I just circled back to "there's a reason for scum to lie about their deck"?
The only definite benefit I can see to massclaiming toDay is because full roles aren't revealed, so one of the four unclaimed dying toNight could leave a gap in our picture, but since I'm pretty sure there's at most one scum in those four, I'd sorta like to keep scum guessing and not just hand them a roadmap of who best to kill.
By that same logic, wouldn't it be just as odd for you to move from scum!KJ to scum!Grape that Day?
I agree that they are unlikely to be buddies together, but there almost has to be one scum between them (barring you playing blinding 4D chess with us).
KJ (as claimed) can't mess with results except for actions directed at him (he said his "other-acetize" was a 1-shot).
Ive seen Mantichora pull out great defenses as a wolf using those methods,
@Cantrip
Why did Vaimes not target Tom on night 2, the night after he learned that Tom was a vig?
if we lynch a wolf today, then there is highly likely only one wolf alive tomorrow based on the size of this game, so that would be a great time to at least claim deck names, since then in a world where Cantrip is town, he can stop the nightkill, and out the last wolf, which I still think the chances of him being town are higher than him being mafia
I like that Tom isnt trying to push this narrative that Cantrip has to be a wolf, and continues to defend him based on content, looks better for him
the chances of Killjoy lying about the number of shots if he is a wolf is likely, if he's town then it's doubtful he lies after not telling us from the start he is an ascetic
@Chris
If KJ flips town, what then?
from my perspective the PoE is you/kj/Tom, but of course you will remove yourself, so would you vote Tom in all cases tomorrow?
I wonder what everyone's plan going into tomorrow will be based on if killjoy and/or Tom flips town
Feels kinda bad to chain lynches, but in a world where Chris is town, and based on the day 1 hammer shaninagens then one of killjoy/tom is always a wolf, so like imo regardless of what the flip yields today, and confident the other flips red based solely on that
I had almost forgotten about that day 1 hammer and how poor it was,
Are u actually arguing his Lynch is even better because in a world where he is the ascetic we can't mechanically confirm anything about him?
Are u actually arguing his Lynch is even better because in a world where he is the ascetic we can't mechanically confirm anything about him?
The only other world is Chris lied, and there is a bus driver, but then you have to wonder
In a killjoy scum world, if he's not lying about his role, then a redirector has to exist, and that means it's unlikely that wolves don't have some sort of role cop, which idk if I want to believe
NK anaylsis is wifom, but why didn't the wolves kill Cantrip? Why did they kill vaimes? Unless maybe they knew he was a vig? If they don't have a role cop, then that world only makes sense if someone new he was the vig aka Cantrip
Lmao what a fiesta of mechanics