Hi, what you just said is not ******* true, Grapefruit. I stopped tunneling you to pursue other things but I never once stated "oh man guess Grapefruit is super town" I just put you to the side and explored more worlds. Also I literally defended Az through everyone's objection (oops), defended Beeboy when it was unpopular (looking like a not oops) and have been stirring the pot today constantly so for you to sit there with a straight face and try to tell me I have been going with the flow is blatant bull*****.
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Also I know you are a liar because if YOU had read my ISO you would know that's not been my progression at all as it missed several key bits of progression so you can just die, your fake confirmable role and all.
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Hi, what you just said is not ******* true, Grapefruit. I stopped tunneling you to pursue other things but I never once stated "oh man guess Grapefruit is super town" I just put you to the side and explored more worlds. Also I literally defended Az through everyone's objection (oops), defended Beeboy when it was unpopular (looking like a not oops) and have been stirring the pot today constantly so for you to sit there with a straight face and try to tell me I have been going with the flow is blatant bull*****.
Chris, calm down. This isn't worth it. I get that you've been stressed out IRL and that parts of this game haven't helped, but if you are town, getting emotional hurts you more than it helps.
Osie, you go read my ISO and you tell me the gaping hole that Mr. Grape had. The very large time where I had someone as my top suspect until I dug through the game. Yet Grapefruit is voting me for my 'lack of progression'
His line on me makes no sense and I don't care what his claim is.
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@Grape: I'm just below neutral on you right now, and other people are slipping lower in my reads for tinfoils and other reasons. Assume Chris is town. I'm going off of several posts that I don't think he makes as scum. That aren't worth it as scum.
What are your thoughts on Tom+Cantrip (Together because two KP are unlikely to both be town in this setup), KCC, others?
I'm not the one who voted for an extension talking about KJ and then acted like it was about me. But more importantly when I asked you what your read on me was it was entirely based on interactions with Az that everyone else was talking about. The other reasons mentioned were all things that could make me be scum (interactions with Rhand). So yes you had a progression but it was purely just following conventional wisdom like I said.
An obviously you had to change after D1 when your buddy got killed and you became a viable option. It's a bit of a different situation.
Fun fact I just looked back at my progression on Grape, thinking maybe I had lost my mind.
The reason I gave him a light town read, Az's interaction with him, was literally directly discussed when I talked about him being scum later on. I literally progressed and discussed my thought on why I no longer thought that was an effective shield against other things grape himself did.
So yes, please read my iso.
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I'm not the one who voted for an extension talking about KJ and then acted like it was about me. But more importantly when I asked you what your read on me was it was entirely based on interactions with Az that everyone else was talking about. The other reasons mentioned were all things that could make me be scum (interactions with Rhand). So yes you had a progression but it was purely just following conventional wisdom like I said.
An obviously you had to change after D1 when your buddy got killed and you became a viable option. It's a bit of a different situation.
Look at how you cry. I have you both scum, get over it.
Also I will say one thing for sure: nothing I do in this game has followed wisdom, much less conventional. But you find the stupidest reasons to come after me
Because my vote is on you. Because my vote isn't on you. Because I didn't progress. Wait no I did progress but it was agreeing with others.
lmao.
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@Wisp: You too. Grape has a confirmable role. Who is your three-man team, and why? How do you split Tom and Cantrip given the likelihood that one of them is scum?
@Grape: I'm just below neutral on you right now, and other people are slipping lower in my reads for tinfoils and other reasons. Assume Chris is town. I'm going off of several posts that I don't think he makes as scum. That aren't worth it as scum.
What are your thoughts on Tom+Cantrip (Together because two KP are unlikely to both be town in this setup), KCC, others?
Assuming Chris is town, I'm town, you're town...
Who is your three-man team?
If chris is town (which I don't think he is) that doesn't change any of my firm town reads.
Tom probably gets downgraded as his toDay looks worse if Chris is town.
Best guess would be Tom[or meg but tom more likely, don't think they are aligned]/Axel/and then being wrong on someone from Vez, Vaimes, or Cantrip.
I actually think that I see exactly what Grapefruit is seeing but I don't necessarily think it makes you scum, based on how you approached your reads on others. I am starting to think that Grape is conf-biasing based on exclusionary focus on your read of him and you are both possibly town. Even if Grape is scum, it's actually a reasonable line of attack, but it ignores the work you put into actually reading other people.
Grape having a confirmable role means literally nothing to me, outside everything else right now
and I haven't been able to really tie down a 3 player scum team, I winged one out before which literally made no sense after I reread
if Grape is a wolf here, it just feels like Chris knows this, and the fact that he decided to switch over to killjoy and constantly state, "well Grape's alignment is technically dependent on Killjoy's but they arent linked" just feels like an excuse to chain lynches, or push off grape and vote killjoy
and him asking someone to unvote so he can be on the train just doesnt feel real, coupled with the fact that he literally asked, "Do I still need to die if Grape flips wolf"
I dont think they have to be w/v, but if hypothetically speaking I believe that to be the case, then Tom is always a wolf over Cantrip, based solely on content and his interactions with Azreal
Yesss now we're back to scum chris bussing good thinking bud.
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@Grape: I'm just below neutral on you right now, and other people are slipping lower in my reads for tinfoils and other reasons. Assume Chris is town. I'm going off of several posts that I don't think he makes as scum. That aren't worth it as scum.
What are your thoughts on Tom+Cantrip (Together because two KP are unlikely to both be town in this setup), KCC, others?
Assuming Chris is town, I'm town, you're town...
Who is your three-man team?
If chris is town (which I don't think he is) that doesn't change any of my firm town reads.
Tom probably gets downgraded as his toDay looks worse if Chris is town.
Best guess would be Tom[or meg but tom more likely, don't think they are aligned]/Axel/and then being wrong on someone from Vez, Vaimes, or Cantrip.
I want to lynch Tom toDay, and I don't think that I'm the only one here who does.
Actually that wasn't mocking, me bussing a scum buddy hard actually fits with my scum profile so it is reasonable to think that.
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@Grape: I'm just below neutral on you right now, and other people are slipping lower in my reads for tinfoils and other reasons. Assume Chris is town. I'm going off of several posts that I don't think he makes as scum. That aren't worth it as scum.
What are your thoughts on Tom+Cantrip (Together because two KP are unlikely to both be town in this setup), KCC, others?
Assuming Chris is town, I'm town, you're town...
Who is your three-man team?
If chris is town (which I don't think he is) that doesn't change any of my firm town reads.
Tom probably gets downgraded as his toDay looks worse if Chris is town.
Best guess would be Tom[or meg but tom more likely, don't think they are aligned]/Axel/and then being wrong on someone from Vez, Vaimes, or Cantrip.
I want to lynch Tom toDay, and I don't think that I'm the only one here who does.
Vote: tomsloger
Can you look over my post where I re-evaluate on tom from scum to town and tell me what you think I got wrong there?
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Grape having a confirmable role means literally nothing to me, outside everything else right now
and I haven't been able to really tie down a 3 player scum team, I winged one out before which literally made no sense after I reread
if Grape is a wolf here, it just feels like Chris knows this, and the fact that he decided to switch over to killjoy and constantly state, "well Grape's alignment is technically dependent on Killjoy's but they arent linked" just feels like an excuse to chain lynches, or push off grape and vote killjoy
and him asking someone to unvote so he can be on the train just doesnt feel real, coupled with the fact that he literally asked, "Do I still need to die if Grape flips wolf"
I dont think they have to be w/v, but if hypothetically speaking I believe that to be the case, then Tom is always a wolf over Cantrip, based solely on content and his interactions with Azreal
Do you really think that Chris is trying to pull a flip-flopping bus into a chained lynch on KJ, then Grape? That's AWFUL play here as scum.
@Grape: I'm just below neutral on you right now, and other people are slipping lower in my reads for tinfoils and other reasons. Assume Chris is town. I'm going off of several posts that I don't think he makes as scum. That aren't worth it as scum.
What are your thoughts on Tom+Cantrip (Together because two KP are unlikely to both be town in this setup), KCC, others?
Assuming Chris is town, I'm town, you're town...
Who is your three-man team?
If chris is town (which I don't think he is) that doesn't change any of my firm town reads.
Tom probably gets downgraded as his toDay looks worse if Chris is town.
Best guess would be Tom[or meg but tom more likely, don't think they are aligned]/Axel/and then being wrong on someone from Vez, Vaimes, or Cantrip.
I want to lynch Tom toDay, and I don't think that I'm the only one here who does.
Vote: tomsloger
Can you look over my post where I re-evaluate on tom from scum to town and tell me what you think I got wrong there?
Here's the thing. If you base on the mechanical read, then Tom's behavior this game means jack. But the mechanical read is nonsensical.
Why give scum a day kill that would just get them shot at night by the vig.
Have there been games where dvum had a day vig that required them to post in topic and town had a night vig?
This is a TERRIBLE argument. It's not only a pure setup-game but one that has no real basis; mafia is a behavioral analysis game. Proph lives by that core thought. It's not realistic to assume that mechanical analysis will rule out most of the time in that scenario, not to mention that Cantrip's restriction might even lower that likelihood.
I like some of tom's posts behaviorally. But without scouring his ISO further, I don't think that there's anything this game from tom that isn't within the realm of scum. I'll see if I can make it happen, but no promises.
what can I say, Chris scares me
Why is it AWFUL play here?
I don't think it's possible to pull off without dying oneself. It's a 2-for-1 in a 3-for-1 game, and it gives town tons of time. I think better of Chris as a player than that to try such a gambit this early, especially when a scumbuddy (in this hypothetical) has died.
Um... you said you think Cantripmancer/Tom has to have scum in it because they are both kp. You are setup gaming too wtf.
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Um... you said you think Cantripmancer/Tom has to have scum in it because they are both kp. You are setup gaming too wtf.
Yes (and I had a feeling someone would bring that up). But, simplistic, L0 setup gaming is (usually) more useful than trying to go next level and assume that Proph would have focused more into that specific situation. Not to mention that we don't actually know that Cantrip can kill Tom this Night.
But like, honestly, both my thought and your thought are WIFOM. I'm just basing more on actual regular first-hand experience over the past year with Proph's philosophies of balance and aesthetics in mafia game design than on "Mafia games wouldn't have this situation, guys!" (No offense intended.)
I don't think scum!tom uses his vig that way but he fits on so many teams.
Why not? It's not something that looks inherently bad for either alignment, in the end. As town, it's a mistake by trying to next-level read as a skilled player, and his chances were higher to hit town anyways. As scum, it's a town death that's not hard to explain away.
I don't think scum!tom uses his vig that way but he fits on so many teams.
It's also very easy for tom or anyone else to use that argument and pair it with shade and discrediting towards anyone who pushes him. He's pulled that style of play on me multiple times.
That's fair I'd just expect scum!tom to try and end the game a beat earlier than expected. Feels more like his MO. You're right about him loving to use that sort of defense though.
Um... you said you think Cantripmancer/Tom has to have scum in it because they are both kp. You are setup gaming too wtf.
Yes (and I had a feeling someone would bring that up). But, simplistic, L0 setup gaming is (usually) more useful than trying to go next level and assume that Proph would have focused more into that specific situation. Not to mention that we don't actually know that Cantrip can kill Tom this Night.
But like, honestly, both my thought and your thought are WIFOM. I'm just basing more on actual regular first-hand experience over the past year with Proph's philosophies of balance and aesthetics in mafia game design than on "Mafia games wouldn't have this situation, guys!" (No offense intended.)
I am basing it on a decade of balancing games and never giving scum a day kill just so town night vig can blow their brains out, but sure.
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Um... you said you think Cantripmancer/Tom has to have scum in it because they are both kp. You are setup gaming too wtf.
Yes (and I had a feeling someone would bring that up). But, simplistic, L0 setup gaming is (usually) more useful than trying to go next level and assume that Proph would have focused more into that specific situation. Not to mention that we don't actually know that Cantrip can kill Tom this Night.
But like, honestly, both my thought and your thought are WIFOM. I'm just basing more on actual regular first-hand experience over the past year with Proph's philosophies of balance and aesthetics in mafia game design than on "Mafia games wouldn't have this situation, guys!" (No offense intended.)
I am basing it on a decade of balancing games and never giving scum a day kill just so town night vig can blow their brains out, but sure.
But it's a specific AND sweeping assumption, Chris:
1. Scum wouldn't have a daykill in the same setup as a town night vig. (Since the town night vig will ALWAYS kill them, despite this being, first and foremost, a behavioral game.)
2. The RESTRICTED town night vig is definitely ABLE to kill them.
3. Also, as much as people would love to discount the RECENTLY-DESIGNED Game of Thrones Mafia, which was looked at in part by Proph... At its core, that was a mafia game first and foremost, despite alternative wincons. And it did have a Scum Dayvig in addition to a conditional Town Nightvig.
I mean if it was just that then I can understand but the dude shot the town backup. Of all the roles to murder. Of all the roles to stop forcing claims on. He chooses the backup. It's such a dumb play from an outed mafia vig tbh
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I am attacking this from a couple of different angles and if we assume Tom is not stupid, and I don't think he is, it just doesn't make sense for him to be scum here. Like if he is scum then... scum was just so sucky.
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I mean if it was just that then I can understand but the dude shot the town backup. Of all the roles to murder. Of all the roles to stop forcing claims on. He chooses the backup. It's such a dumb play from an outed mafia vig tbh
Is it though? Was dkingsland such a bad target for mafia, especially given the strength of roles in this game, especially given the strength of a BACKUP in this game?
I am attacking this from a couple of different angles and if we assume Tom is not stupid, and I don't think he is, it just doesn't make sense for him to be scum here. Like if he is scum then... scum was just so sucky.
I don't think he's played stupidly. I don't think shooting dkingsland was a stupid play. And I do think that at least one scum member is in LHF (Axel/Grape/KJ/Megiddo). Not to mention, everyone wasn't paying attention to tom until I brought him up. That's the definition of a favorable game state for scum.
@Chris: You yourself were convinced that dkingsland could be scum, before the shot went off.
This may be biased but I think scum tom should shoot me there every time.
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Dkings being scum would make me very happy since it would mortally confirm fuwa given the reach dkings had earlier to try to say fuwa could be scum while basically calling fuwa town in other interactions.
Well it was true, but I still told tom to murder kj.
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You have a scum vig and you kill... the backup? After two claims? I just can't see it.
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Lynch the damn scum claim ffs. Delayer is not a town role in this setup and thos bull***** about beeboy being sent to do the kill doesn't fly here.
Beeboy was a wagon for most of day 1. You don't send that buddy to do the kill.
Beeboy was absent for most of the second half of the day. Beeboy didn't have much attention on him. Not to mention that there's likely 3+ different people other than Azrael on that team. 3+ different people who can do that kill. Out of 13. Most of us have 3-4 solid townreads. Even if any of those are right, that's still 3 people out of 10!
Tom was a wagon, Shadow was a wagon, Fuwa was a wagon, Killjoy was a wagon, Chris was a wagon. Cantrip was a wagon.
Do we want to say that none of those people would have done the kill, and the scum team has at least one member strictly outside of that group of people, who did the kill?
If we say that, well, then there's at least one scum in:
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Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
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Chris, calm down. This isn't worth it. I get that you've been stressed out IRL and that parts of this game haven't helped, but if you are town, getting emotional hurts you more than it helps.
His line on me makes no sense and I don't care what his claim is.
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I was literally so close to just yeeting the hammer
and then Osie goes and unvotes
why the **** does Grape as a wolf even claim delayer here
What are your thoughts on Tom+Cantrip (Together because two KP are unlikely to both be town in this setup), KCC, others?
Assuming Chris is town, I'm town, you're town...
Who is your three-man team?
An obviously you had to change after D1 when your buddy got killed and you became a viable option. It's a bit of a different situation.
The reason I gave him a light town read, Az's interaction with him, was literally directly discussed when I talked about him being scum later on. I literally progressed and discussed my thought on why I no longer thought that was an effective shield against other things grape himself did.
So yes, please read my iso.
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Look at how you cry. I have you both scum, get over it.
Also I will say one thing for sure: nothing I do in this game has followed wisdom, much less conventional. But you find the stupidest reasons to come after me
Because my vote is on you. Because my vote isn't on you. Because I didn't progress. Wait no I did progress but it was agreeing with others.
lmao.
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If chris is town (which I don't think he is) that doesn't change any of my firm town reads.
Tom probably gets downgraded as his toDay looks worse if Chris is town.
Best guess would be Tom[or meg but tom more likely, don't think they are aligned]/Axel/and then being wrong on someone from Vez, Vaimes, or Cantrip.
and I haven't been able to really tie down a 3 player scum team, I winged one out before which literally made no sense after I reread
if Grape is a wolf here, it just feels like Chris knows this, and the fact that he decided to switch over to killjoy and constantly state, "well Grape's alignment is technically dependent on Killjoy's but they arent linked" just feels like an excuse to chain lynches, or push off grape and vote killjoy
and him asking someone to unvote so he can be on the train just doesnt feel real, coupled with the fact that he literally asked, "Do I still need to die if Grape flips wolf"
I dont think they have to be w/v, but if hypothetically speaking I believe that to be the case, then Tom is always a wolf over Cantrip, based solely on content and his interactions with Azreal
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I want to lynch Tom toDay, and I don't think that I'm the only one here who does.
Vote: tomsloger
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Can you look over my post where I re-evaluate on tom from scum to town and tell me what you think I got wrong there?
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Do you really think that Chris is trying to pull a flip-flopping bus into a chained lynch on KJ, then Grape? That's AWFUL play here as scum.
Why is it AWFUL play here?
Here's the thing. If you base on the mechanical read, then Tom's behavior this game means jack. But the mechanical read is nonsensical.
This is a TERRIBLE argument. It's not only a pure setup-game but one that has no real basis; mafia is a behavioral analysis game. Proph lives by that core thought. It's not realistic to assume that mechanical analysis will rule out most of the time in that scenario, not to mention that Cantrip's restriction might even lower that likelihood.
I like some of tom's posts behaviorally. But without scouring his ISO further, I don't think that there's anything this game from tom that isn't within the realm of scum. I'll see if I can make it happen, but no promises.
I don't think it's possible to pull off without dying oneself. It's a 2-for-1 in a 3-for-1 game, and it gives town tons of time. I think better of Chris as a player than that to try such a gambit this early, especially when a scumbuddy (in this hypothetical) has died.
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I don't think scum!tom uses his vig that way but he fits on so many teams.
Yes (and I had a feeling someone would bring that up). But, simplistic, L0 setup gaming is (usually) more useful than trying to go next level and assume that Proph would have focused more into that specific situation. Not to mention that we don't actually know that Cantrip can kill Tom this Night.
But like, honestly, both my thought and your thought are WIFOM. I'm just basing more on actual regular first-hand experience over the past year with Proph's philosophies of balance and aesthetics in mafia game design than on "Mafia games wouldn't have this situation, guys!" (No offense intended.)
Why not? It's not something that looks inherently bad for either alignment, in the end. As town, it's a mistake by trying to next-level read as a skilled player, and his chances were higher to hit town anyways. As scum, it's a town death that's not hard to explain away.
It's also very easy for tom or anyone else to use that argument and pair it with shade and discrediting towards anyone who pushes him. He's pulled that style of play on me multiple times.
Behaviorally significantly likely to be town...
Vezok -> Shadow
Chris
Lastwhisper
Vaimes
LHF; should probably not be the lynch for today:
Axel
Grape
Killjoy
Megiddo
Tom's always more likely scum than Cantrip, and people don't want to see a KCC lynch as of yet (despite the slot being both scummy and caustic).
So Tom's the best lynch for the day.
I am basing it on a decade of balancing games and never giving scum a day kill just so town night vig can blow their brains out, but sure.
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But it's a specific AND sweeping assumption, Chris:
1. Scum wouldn't have a daykill in the same setup as a town night vig. (Since the town night vig will ALWAYS kill them, despite this being, first and foremost, a behavioral game.)
2. The RESTRICTED town night vig is definitely ABLE to kill them.
3. Also, as much as people would love to discount the RECENTLY-DESIGNED Game of Thrones Mafia, which was looked at in part by Proph... At its core, that was a mafia game first and foremost, despite alternative wincons. And it did have a Scum Dayvig in addition to a conditional Town Nightvig.
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Is it though? Was dkingsland such a bad target for mafia, especially given the strength of roles in this game, especially given the strength of a BACKUP in this game?
I don't think he's played stupidly. I don't think shooting dkingsland was a stupid play. And I do think that at least one scum member is in LHF (Axel/Grape/KJ/Megiddo). Not to mention, everyone wasn't paying attention to tom until I brought him up. That's the definition of a favorable game state for scum.
This may be biased but I think scum tom should shoot me there every time.
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I thought he could be but I was leaning town.
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Your large catchup post said you thought he was unlikely to be scum because of how he handled Az, but you also followed with this:
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But yeah, I think it's not insane play from scum!tom here. I also think that that Tom is ALWAYS a better lynch than Grape or KJ here.
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going to sleep
dont think I am ever voting Tom today
Beeboy was a wagon for most of day 1. You don't send that buddy to do the kill.
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Beeboy was absent for most of the second half of the day. Beeboy didn't have much attention on him. Not to mention that there's likely 3+ different people other than Azrael on that team. 3+ different people who can do that kill. Out of 13. Most of us have 3-4 solid townreads. Even if any of those are right, that's still 3 people out of 10!
Tom was a wagon, Shadow was a wagon, Fuwa was a wagon, Killjoy was a wagon, Chris was a wagon. Cantrip was a wagon.
Do we want to say that none of those people would have done the kill, and the scum team has at least one member strictly outside of that group of people, who did the kill?
If we say that, well, then there's at least one scum in:
Vaimes
Grapefruit21
Axelrod
vezokpiraka
KittyCupCake r. KillerCandyCorn
Lastwhisper r. Syrenz
And one of those 6 did the kill.
Which is quite possibly the case.
But the hypothesis is vacuous.
Also this.
I've seen delayer as a town role so often in the past year... This is an absurd claim.