MTG Salvation

Didnt really ubderstand initial rhand push, and now think hes gotten it up quite nicely this game (sure rhand is capable but it looks like town to me aorn)

So yeah thats gonna be a no from me sweetheart. Why rhand? I see nothing in your iso

Quote from tomsloger »

Didnt really ubderstand initial rhand push, and now think hes gotten it up quite nicely this game (sure rhand is capable but it looks like town to me aorn)

So yeah thats gonna be a no from me sweetheart. Why rhand? I see nothing in your iso

If that was directed at me (the sweetheart makes me think it wasn't as I'd have a more brutish descriptor) but my ISO is full of pointed questions about Rhand's reads that he hasn't been able to really answer and that's giving me scummy vibes. While he's not been shy about attacking his attacks have had all the force of my nonathletic self trying to drive through traffic and finish at the rim.

Quote from shadowlancerx »

@Rhand: thoughts on cantrip’s comment about chris’ Ego? Certainly Chris has one, but I’ve also seen him actually be able to get there on someone before and change his mind, so it kind of strikes me the wrong way.

Like, if Cantrip is scum, it would be a pretty good way to brush off Chris here and dismiss him.

...except that I already indicated that I need to engage with him and investigate his reads, so how am I dismissing him? I just don't expect him to back down.

Quote from Shadow »

Actually, @cantrip, with the above taken into account, do you have that little faith in Chris correctly reading/faking a correct read on you here?

That...strikes me as a very odd question. I have absolutely zero faith in Chris's read on me being correct. And how, exactly, does faking a correct read on a player work? If he's town, then he's not faking it, and if he's scum, then he's faking a read on town (in which case it's not correct). I guess from your perspective, he could be faking a read on a buddy (which, I suppose, could be called a "correct" read, but I don't think that's what you're asking). So...clarify what you're asking?

Quote from Sir Chris »

Cantripmancer, what is the full list of games we've played together?

Other than GoT, I don't remember the last time we played a game together. Pretty sure we have, but I don't have time to check atm. Here's the list of games I've played; any you know you played in?

Quote from Chris »

I get the feeling you're about to have a very bad day in 12 hours time because I will say this: one of the hallmarks of my play, one of the things I hang my hat on as a player and that I am proud of, is that I have never been too bad to abandon a read and go "oh I messed this up, change of direction."

So... I wonder what scum buddy whispered in your ear to mistakenly make you have that opinion, sir.

First, even if I emerge from this confrontation in defeat and shame, it will have little bearing on how bad a day I have. Whole communities dismissing my methods? Tilting. Going up against another player (who at least accepts me as an opponent) and losing? Hopefully educating, but not significantly impactful on my mood. Second, I based that opinion on what I saw of you in GoT and DitF, but I didn't read all of DitF, so maybe you can back down. I guess we'll see.

Quote from Sir Chris »

So in post 12 Shin makes the type of comment that scumbuddies are not likely to make: pointless observational. He observes that Cantrip put "a lot of thought" into a post and I read that s a mild ping and genuine. These are the tiny things I like to look for and if Cantrip is scum I'd feel comfortable just clearing Shin based off of this. This is furthered by Cantrip word vomiting an explanation about how he compiled stats etc. Felt almost defensive, which again I would not expect from scumbuddies interacting early.

Concur that it's not the kind of comment a buddy makes. Generally, though, I see comments like that as easy throwaways, mostly NAI, maybe a little more likely to come from scum because it's an easy attack. "Wow, look at that overcompensated post!" I didn't get an attacking sense from Shin's comment, though, probably because he was right: I *did* put more thought into that post than I normally would have. So I said so. In addition to the observations I made on Riku's playstyle, I also was surprised because I expected to catch a little flak for being honest there.

Quote from Chris »

Another town point for Rhand: When I asked about Ruma he kind of looked at me as if to say "What the heck am I supposed to think, dude's done nothing" a non answer but one that is derived not from needing to appease me, but an attempt to be honest and open with their opinions - a hallmark of town.

Contrast this with Cantripmancer who provided an answer of "I was surprised he liked my #9." Or in another way, "I am a town member and I am expressing surprise that another player likes the content I have put forward" which to me does not seem genuine. It feels like he felt pressured to provide some sort of answer and gave the only thing he could think of - oh yeah he reacted to me, how zany.

This is funny to me because while I have no idea how open and honest Rhand was being, I *was* being honest and open when I responded to Silver, and that's the line of attack you're taking. I see some differences in situations (it felt like Silver was specifically looking for a response on that interaction when he asked me, while your question to Rhand was fairly open-ended), but ultimately I think it boils down to me generally being the kind of player who likes answering questions.

Quote from Chris »

Interestingly two people I am not fond of probably aren't aligned in Lng and GF after Lng's analysis of GF's play. Felt either like a genuine confusion on Lng's part or trying to sell that story to GF for him to be pocketed.

Which of LnG's posts are you talking about here?

Quote from Chris »

So Shadow is a strong town read because he seems invested in not even accepting an OK game from me, which would be very reckless as scum shadow because I believe shadow has been on the host or observer end of many of my best games, and if I remember right he had some very kind thoughts on my 2015 year where I hellmurdered scum just about every game I was town. So Shadow, being a chessmaster in his own right, wants his Queen to be as destructive as possible, or to find the smudge that reveals the white coat I claim to have is just a veneer for the dark heart underneath.

I think this is a good observation if you're town; I think it's unlikely that the pressure he applied your way is indicative of scum attacking town, and...fairly unlikely to come from a buddy pressuring a buddy to do more? Maybe, but...I don't get that feeling. So I think no matter your alignment, Shadow feels town from the way he's interacted with you.

Quote from Chris »

Cantrip/Silver probably unaligned based on Silver's keen observation about RVS unvoting and general vibe about the questioning.

Agreed. If I'm scum, buddy Silver is unlikely to approach me that way.

Quote from Chris »

i get a bad vibe from Will. That's the extent of that, but I am bookmarking that in my mind.

So...this is probably going to come off as an odd thing to zone in on, but every time I read this line, something felt wrong and I finally figured out what it was. Your whole post feels very much like a stream of consciousness post, where you're either reviewing the thread or your notes and highlighting elements as you go along, with a little bit of shifting pieces for comparison (like you highlighting Rhand's response to you above). Along those lines, Silver's question to me about RVS voting is post #53. You post this comment about Will after that, but Will's first post was 38, and then the next one is 65...and that's the post where Will says he has zero experience other than reading a game. So why is this comment here in your post? And/or, why specifically go out of your way to point out that you have a bad vibe on Will when you reassess him (opposite of this, positively) just a few lines down? Why not say something like "At first Will pinged me and I couldn't figure out why, but then I saw that he's new and that explained it"? You say it's the little things; this feels off enough that I think if you flip scum, then Will has a higher chance of also flipping scum.

Quote from Chris »

It'd be funny, following on Silver's point, if Ruma is scum with Cantrip and this epic RVS analysis by Silver which should probably never occur has beared fruit. Not sure where Silver's vote is now BUT you always go for cantrip over ruma I think, as Ruma's "sus" but not vote seems more likely to me to be wolf/wolf.

In fact feeling compelled to answer for ruma makes that make even more sense in theory, hoho it'd be scary if I was that good this early.

You're not.

Quote from Chris »

If that is true then Tubba is never aligned with them due to following up on that (GOOD question from Tubba btw, that's a very insightful question in my view so town points as that is not something that leaps off the page to many I feel like.)

Ok.

Quote from Chris »

Oh man Will has no experience with mafia. Nevermind he is town lol. I always easy gut check newbies. He feels like a tourist. "Oh man I can use smilies. How neat everyone"

I feel pretty confident in saying it sounded like he was being sassy, not exuberant about the site tools. I said that I liked his 84 because I don't think a first-time player who rolls scum gets called out on that entrance and turns around and sasses his questioner like that.

Quote from Chris »

GF hot take of "Cantrip seems pure" makes me question GF's ability or alignment, I don't know which though.

Most the if-then's you've set up here felt pretty natural, but this one crosses some lines, I think. Either you're scum trying to sell this too hard, or you've fallen into a tunnel, because there's no supposition there; you are actually questioning GF's ability or alignment, despite not being able to know (if you're town, of course) if I'm scum or not.

Quote from Chris »

So yeah lots of interesting little interactions that once one scum domino falls should make things interesting.

A lot of your post is predicated on this card house of "if Cantrip is scum". I'm questioning whether town puts this much work into suppositional pre-flip associations. Can you point to town games where you've gone down this many rabbit holes on a player prior to their flip? I'm asking in part because these feel like the kinds of things an experienced player would fall back on if they were suddenly called out to provide 'reasoning' for why they see a player scummy. Of everything you've said about me so far, the only actual things you've said you think are scummy (correct me if I'm wrong) are:
• Me being wordy felt defensive (but I would attest that I'm wordy no matter my alignment).
• Your read on my response about Ruma liking my comment (I can't change your opinion of that, so ok).
• Me being the 3rd vote on your invited wagon (you still haven't shown me that that's not just a high-profile OMGUS).

Which is interesting ( ) because in 270 you said that you were anticipating my vote because you were already iso-ing me. That's what you found suspicious that made you excited that I fell into your trap? You "already" iso-ing me also doesn't feel like it jives with your "hmm, yes, good enough" start in 231; that doesn't feel like "ha, I knew it!" It feels like "hmm, interesting that Cantrip was the one to fall for it".

That was a lot of post to explain just two bullet points of suspicions, but I notice that there's a lot of political arm flapping with slick little promises of potential information "when" I flip scum. Lots of incentives that could be designed to get town excited about the potential of a scum!Cantrip flip!

On top of that, just how many players did you compliment and/or pander to in that post? Let's see:
• Shin is town if I'm scum.
• Town point for Rhand.
• LnG made you chuckle (everyone likes thinking their posts are funny)
• Sage advice to Grapefruit on playstyle (thanks, Chris!)
• Oh, and two players you have been attacking (LnG and Grape)? Yeah, turns out it's unlikely they're aligned (either of them that are town feel better about you because they think you'll probably eventually come around to townreading them and scumreading the other)
• Shadow is a strong town read, and you love what he's doing.
• Silver is probably town if I'm scum.
• You got a bad vibe about Will......oh, just kidding!!! No, he's just a cute little tourist lost in this dangerous corner of the internet!
• Dang, that was a good question from Tubba.

The players you didn't groom in that post?
• You're stoked because maybe you caught scum/scum interaction with Cantrip and Ruma! Wouldn't that be a lark if you were that crazy good??
• Grape's take on Cantrip sounding pure is a hot take, and he's either crazy or evil.
• Tom

So...you've settled on a Cantrip/Ruma/Grape scumteam (because you've been flirting with Tom all game, you certainly can't turn on him now)? And you made sure to make everyone else feel better about themselves?

I started out this post feeling like you had some sincere reads and perspectives, but as I realized how much manipulation there seems to be in that post, the more excited I got about the possibility that I've actually caught you being really sneaky. Like...if you're scum doing this, it's first-class manipulation all around, and I'm really impressed, and super anxious to find out if I'm right.

All that said, I'm not calling for your immediate and complete destruction because no matter how much I Fry-squint, I'm still not certain that you're doing all this vindictively. You could be town making these posts. I certainly think it's > rand now that you're scum, so my vote stays. Now that I feel like I've gotten a peek behind your curtain, so to speak, I want to take another look at the rest of your posts, but it's very late and I'm very tired, so it'll have to wait for another time, but feel free to address my concerns. In particular, if you could fabricate highlight the other reasons you find me scummy, yeah, that'd be great.

Oh my gosh. Dat wall. Sorry.

I have to get to work, but I will say on the epic Wall about Will it is interesting that you noticed that but did not notice that Silver quoted Will in his post. So while I was reading it didn't catch my eye but then when Silver requoted it that is when I was like 'huh'

Which granted I could be OK with you missing - it's not that easy of a detail to see - but apparently you thought pretty hard on this and didn't come to that conclusion. You are also a bit self aware which I am not sure where that comes from. "I know this will come off odd" but...no. It actually doesn't. If Will's post hadn't been quoted in #53 it would be pretty valid as I was just scrolling through the thread making notes. You seem very concerned about your image that you project and have had several comments to this effect.

I will say you are correct that Shadow's question to you makes no sense, I was just waiting for you to answer before challenging it. Shadow, what gives man?

Off the top of my head it looks like Survival Horror. So GoT where I was scum and that's basically it. Where did you get the opinion that my town ego prevents me from changing course? I am not an Iso type - I don't tend to get very tunnely. So why do you have that image of me? I am quite reasonable. I always want my scum suspects to prove me wrong. I love data. The best thing that can happen is that is I am proven wrong because if you can take me from scum on you to town on you that's a very powerful argument you've made, and therefore in the wake of that argument it becomes easily to divine scum.

Town rarely have anything to fear from me when I am on my game. Even to the point in In The Family mafia despite me being suspicious of Tom in final 6 I was the only town not to vote for him - I wanted to go back and read to verify and they had other ideas. I am a verbose and dominant personality, but I am not reckless.

Will look up Lng exchange later, don't have time to go searching.

Ah, not true on GF by the way. Even if you are town trhere are for sure reasonable questions about your alignment at that point. You've had questionable interactions that need to be accounted for. But also I create worlds as town. Right now my world makes one big assumption: You are scum, and so then I construct and build. However when I make 20 assumptions based off a key one at the end of the day I either go "This makes sense" or I go "Actually wait, this doesn't make sense I have erred." When you only make one assumption, that you are scum, it is more easily inflicted by variance of read ability. SAo actually if you are town this is a fantastic thing for you, as if even one of my 'and then' become tainted it makes me question the pillar of which they are supported on. You can never defend yourself directly from me with "role PM says scum" however do you disagree with any of my town reads based off you being scum? In what ways are my world broken because I've started with a false premise? Paint me a picture of a better world and I promise I will follow, as all I want to do in this game of mafia of ours is paint the very best picture using the blood of scum.

As for it being a lark if I was that crazy good? Read my signature. Ask Shadow what I look like when I am at my height as town. I could be wrong about you here, but there are many games on this site that are very easily readable where I just walked into a game and started beating the holy hell out of scum.

Also I love to build robust towns, it is funny that you don't seem to know anything about my play - not surprising we haven't played - but then it makes it really strange why you would comment on my ego as if it was fact.


First off I'll turn on anyone in a second if I think they are scum,again another hallmark of my game. But yeah I guess that's where I am at right this second. I also tend to be a little too clear happy day 1 and have to walk back my softer clears as I tend to throw a scum in the town pile for meh reasons. Still good place to start.

Anyway I saw a lot of analysis but not a lot of effort to show why I am not doing a good job on my premise. Basically you being scum means I think A LOT of people look great so now I am factoring in the +ev play that I have on the table of lynching you if people agree with my assumptions, and so far you didn't even try to refute them.

It is the first week of day 1, you seem tense. If you are town I promise I will not lynch you today. If you are scum please keep fighting, I enjoy the fun of walls. No need to ever apologize or tl;dr me, I am more than up to the task of matching any wall you can produce. In truth they make me feel alive again. I love the game of mafia, and sometimes I forget that. Thank you again, Shadow ^_^.

Also I did not even click the tl;dr until just now to see if something was off about it.

Good. Very good.

I just want to say I am bad at the game, but I'm usually affably bad. And in the past flexibly so. My stubbornness is only a recent development which is why it's so frustrating to me. I used to be very good at realizing I was wrong and adapting.

Anyway enough self meta complaining. Reading the two walls I just don't see scum!Cantrip here. If I squint I guess I can think "well that was pretty defensive and mostly focused on tearing down Chris' work rather than advancing theories" but there were bits of both just more defense.

Reading Chris' wall I was just struck by how focused he was on the Will thing. Maybe this is just a me thing but if I was focusing on Chris' posts in a reread and notice that the will stuff is out of sequence I wouldn't think to look for someone else quoting him to jog the memory. Maybe I'm too lazy, but that Chris thought it was so obvious is just foreign to me.

I mean, he referenced 53 where Silver asked him the question which is the same post Will's post is quoted. Not a bit worrying that he did all of that investigative sleuthing but missed that? Maybe not but worth a challenge.

Also hello Grape. Any other observations?

I got through most of those walls. Perhaps I should work on my stamina

Levels of attraction ~unchanged

Quote from Sir Chris »

I have to get to work, but I will say on the epic Wall about Will it is interesting that you noticed that but did not notice that Silver quoted Will in his post. So while I was reading it didn't catch my eye but then when Silver requoted it that is when I was like 'huh'

Oh. That makes sense. No, that didn't occur to me, but I'm sure I've done that before.

Quote from Chris »

Which granted I could be OK with you missing - it's not that easy of a detail to see - but apparently you thought pretty hard on this and didn't come to that conclusion. You are also a bit self aware which I am not sure where that comes from. "I know this will come off odd" but...no. It actually doesn't. If Will's post hadn't been quoted in #53 it would be pretty valid as I was just scrolling through the thread making notes. You seem very concerned about your image that you project and have had several comments to this effect.

I just know I'm going to catch some flak for this, but...Mafia is a game of perception and scrutiny. I *frequently* ask myself how what I'm posting--as town OR scum--is going to be perceived. I used to feel guilty about it when playing town, but...I think you'll find that while there are definitely players who are very carefree as town and post whatever comes to mind, there are just as many who, consciously or unconsciously, apply that "how will this make me perceived" filter all the time.

Quote from Chris »

Off the top of my head it looks like Survival Horror.

? You weren't in Survival Horror?

Quote from Chris »

So GoT where I was scum and that's basically it. Where did you get the opinion that my town ego prevents me from changing course? I am not an Iso type - I don't tend to get very tunnely. So why do you have that image of me? I am quite reasonable. I always want my scum suspects to prove me wrong. I love data. The best thing that can happen is that is I am proven wrong because if you can take me from scum on you to town on you that's a very powerful argument you've made, and therefore in the wake of that argument it becomes easily to divine scum.

Town rarely have anything to fear from me when I am on my game. Even to the point in In The Family mafia despite me being suspicious of Tom in final 6 I was the only town not to vote for him - I wanted to go back and read to verify and they had other ideas. I am a verbose and dominant personality, but I am not reckless.

I am probably letting your play in GoT color my opinion more than I ought? And maybe applying some of my own thought process, too. I don't know, I guess. As I was typing my earlier response, I just thought "aaaaaaaand it's probably unlikely that Chris is the type that will reverse his opinion if he's scum, and if he's town he's probably going to not want to back down, so I'm going to have to present a strong argument". Sorry, it wasn't a smear attempt or anything, just how I felt you'd probably approach things. And I generally don't think of you as reckless. Just stubborn.

Quote from Chris »

Ah, not true on GF by the way. Even if you are town there are for sure reasonable questions about your alignment at that point. You've had questionable interactions that need to be accounted for. But also I create worlds as town. Right now my world makes one big assumption: You are scum, and so then I construct and build. However when I make 20 assumptions based off a key one at the end of the day I either go "This makes sense" or I go "Actually wait, this doesn't make sense I have erred." When you only make one assumption, that you are scum, it is more easily inflicted by variance of read ability. SAo actually if you are town this is a fantastic thing for you, as if even one of my 'and then' become tainted it makes me question the pillar of which they are supported on. You can never defend yourself directly from me with "role PM says scum" however do you disagree with any of my town reads based off you being scum? In what ways are my world broken because I've started with a false premise? Paint me a picture of a better world and I promise I will follow, as all I want to do in this game of mafia of ours is paint the very best picture using the blood of scum.

I don't feel like you're addressing my concern with how you approached that Grape read. Why do you sound so certain that Grape's judgement or intent is bad?

As for agreeing/disagreeing with your pre-flip associations...did you read my post? I commented on almost all of them and indicated if they made sense or not, from a town!you mindset. Most of them did; I questioned the ones I felt were off. Why do you feel like I haven't already done this? You've already admitted that your world is based on one premise: that I'm scum. I already know that's false, so I already know your world is broken, but if you're town and don't know my alignment, a lot of what you said makes sense/feels natural. But none of those feel like they make me scummy, nor do I feel like YOU think they make me scum. You're just crafting an upside-down pyramid with "Cantrip is scum" at the bottom. When that gets kicked away, what will you be left with?

Also, I'm pretty sure I've never tried to defend myself by telling my attacker that "my role PM says scum".

Quote from Chris »

As for it being a lark if I was that crazy good? Read my signature. Ask Shadow what I look like when I am at my height as town. I could be wrong about you here, but there are many games on this site that are very easily readable where I just walked into a game and started beating the holy hell out of scum.

I know you're good. Everyone says you're good. I don't think I ever gave serious consideration of you being scum in GoT until it became obvious. That's part of why I'm suspicious: I know you're wrong on me, so is it more likely that you are town playing badly, or scum being crafty? Also, it "being a lark" was sarcasm directed at YOUR supposed amusement at the possibility of you being that good, so don't point at your list of achievements and tell me that I shouldn't be questioning your ability. That was YOUR goofy incredulity about how good you might be.

Quote from Chris »

Anyway I saw a lot of analysis but not a lot of effort to show why I am not doing a good job on my premise. Basically you being scum means I think A LOT of people look great so now I am factoring in the +ev play that I have on the table of lynching you if people agree with my assumptions, and so far you didn't even try to refute them.

I refuted what I found questionable; why would I try to refute things that make sense through a supposed town!Chris perception of scum!Cantrip?

Quote from Chris »

It is the first week of day 1, you seem tense. If you are town I promise I will not lynch you today.

Welp, you can unvote me then.

Quote from Chris »

If you are scum please keep fighting, I enjoy the fun of walls.

Is this a psych out? Like, trying to make it seem like only scum would keep fighting here?

You completely glossed over my observation that you appear to find me scummy based on three elements, two of which I think are poor attacks, and the third of which is your opinion. Actually, you glossed over quite a bit. Would a numbered list of questions help? I'd appreciate it if you'd directly respond to these:

1) Did I correctly list everything you find me scummy for?
2) If not, what else are you sitting on, and why hold back?
3) Did you not notice that you built up every player in the game with that post, other than Tom and three players, which, logically, would intimate a scum team?
4) DO you think the scum team is me, Riku, and Grape? With what certainty? I'm terrible at world building; does that team make sense to you?

As an aside, can you, or anyone, provide a clear picture of EV? I've never really understood the phrase or how that's perceived.

Fair enough, if you are town I should unvote you.

##unvote: Cantripmancer

I will ponder the gamestate in a bit, busy work day for me but I am comfortable with your defense and your attention to detail is quite strong. Thank you for participating.

I did feel good about too many slots for you to reasonably be scum. Makes sense, good argument.

Quote from shadowlancerx »

If you are town, do you believe that town!chris is likely to get to the correct read on you eventually? Do you believe that scum!chris is likely to pretend to get to the correct read on you and try and lynch elsewhere?

Basically, in the post I was referencing, you seemed ready to gladiate Chris to the death with little regard for him changing his mind; do you believe that he will change his mind, and which alignment do you think he is more likely to change his mind as?

Thanks for the clarification. First off, it's quickly become obvious to me that my perception of Chris is incomplete. I want to think that town!Chris would get there eventually, but I'm a little biased because he chose to go after me in the first place. It felt at the time more likely to me that scum!Chris set up a "trap" and went after the first player that walked in, regardless of who it was. It felt like he thought I would be an easy mislynch. Especially since, imo, I wasn't a particularly strong player in GoT, depending on (admittedly contrived) reaction tests to try and suss alignment. So yeah...that intersection of "if town!Chris is so good why is he going after me in the first place" and "scum!Chris probably sees me as possible mislynch" is definitely a factor in my thought process.

And...no, I'm not ready to fight Chris to the death. Are you talking about my 293? I was saying I don't think Chris is going to back down regardless of alignment, so it's up to me to figure him out.

Quote from Shadow »

Or if it’s just the fact that he did wall, do you think that it is somehow AI for him (cause it’s not).

Quote from Cantripmancer »

I was saying I don't think Chris is going to back down regardless of alignment, so it's up to me to figure him out.

This post didn't age well.

Um...thanks, I guess, Chris? I wasn't serious about you unvoting me. I mean, sure, you shouldn't be, but I'd actually sorta rather have the pressure and purpose.

You unvoting also doesn't exempt you from answering those questions. I won't accept oblique side-answers, either.

Hi!

I'm alive, Phantom was awesome.

Been skimming but I don't ~really want to read walls on my phone, rofl. Traveling home most of today but I'll be back in full force tomorrow.

Hi @Vaimes, I had a light town read on Shin but I'm not going to let you coast.

Could you elaborate that Ruma read because I'm pretty sure he's a wolf and he's my #1 lunch toDay, reasons should be close to the beginning of my iso + he's been completely frozen basically since I posted that.

My vote is a weapon used to pierce in many directions, my friend. If I only voted people just to attack THEM then I would not nearly live up to my reputation. I'm kind of fired up to be playing with people who expect more from me and who are willing to go wall against wall. I am starting to get very, very fired up.

Your purpose can be to discuss the game with me. Perhaps I am villainous scum who is trying to manipulate you. Pursue me to the end's of the Earth, WE SHALL HAVE AN ADVENTURE!

1) Did I correctly list everything you find me scummy for?

I don't think so, but that's because I don't always show my work so that may not be your fault.

2) If not, what else are you sitting on, and why hold back?

Honestly? Fantastic question. Because I am a master manipulator of scum, and so I play games. I give only the information I want out in the public to see reactions. I have been pretty narrowly focused on you but notice when you questioned Shadow I immediately was like "Yes, that's weird." I make observations that I don't post right away to see where those trails go. I gain little revealing all of my thoughts because if people think I am fully focused on you they may do silly things that I will catch them for.

3) Did you not notice that you built up every player in the game with that post, other than Tom and three players, which, logically, would intimate a scum team?

Honestly? I did not. When I reviewed the player list I was like "huh." Worse, I had already posted favorably about Tom. Oops Chris built too perfect a world day 1, REDO.

Quote from Silvercrys3467 »

Could you elaborate that Ruma read because I'm pretty sure he's a wolf and he's my #1 lunch toDay, reasons should be close to the beginning of my iso + he's been completely frozen basically since I posted that.

Can you be frozen if you were never a warm body in the first place?

(I just isoed him he can die)

Walls walls walls and no time to read them :/

I am skipping the walls for now.

(I got halfway through Cantrip's before deciding to just townslot him and move on, at least for D1.)

Silver, I'm going to be coasty and answer your question with a question. How many times have you played with slash observed Ruma?

Quote from Vaimes »

Silver, I'm going to be coasty and answer your question with a question. How many times have you played with slash observed Ruma?

Uhm. I've read every game on the site since he started playing but I'd be lying if I said I remember them all or have any distinct impression of his wolf game vs his town game.

I'm assuming that this is both going somewhere and that since you're being coasty you didn't iso me to find out why I think he's a wolf?

I did see your reasons, I just don't recall them now. Nor do I recall them being like, super alignment indictive enough to make me go "yeah, I can get behind this".

The only place I'm really going with this is that Ruma is hardcore lynchbait and I think he's been town every time I wanted to murder him.

It's not a hill I plan on dying on, but afaik he has a little bit of a spark when he's town, and falling off activity-wise isn't scummy for him.

Quote from Silvercrys3467 »

Okay the longer I wait the less relevant it feels.

It was weird that Ruma called Cantrip a wolf in his first post and then didn't vote him even if it was a joke.

Maybe especially if it was a joke... it felt like an RVS post but without the, well, the random vote.

Vote: Rumanshi

This doesn't really untwist my panties at all, silver fox

I took in the whole thing eventually. Needed a smoke after.
Still no change

I feel pretty strongly that Ruma not RVSing in this game with that awkward Cantrip interaction, etc. is alignment indicative, especially given the lack of activity.

I checked his last five games or so and he's always voted in his first post, and he feels extremely limp.

He's mislunch bait for sure, but so are a few other players in this game (not naming names) and being mislunch bait doesn't mean he isn't a wolf, it just means if he's town he isn't going to clear himself.

(Never meant to imply I wasn't going to read the walls, just haven't read them yet because lolmobile. I'll read them tomorrow.)

I prefer my meta a bit more nauanced than "didn't vote in rvs" but whatever gets you hard.

And perhaps for ruma its valid. If you dont have subtlety in your posts why should i have it in my reads or whatever

But for myself I just dont see him as anything but a consolation prize at closing time if no one wants to wagon lngrr

I mean, sure, if you boil the entire thing down to "he didn't vote in RVS let's lunch him" it sounds like extremely loose / poor play. If his entrance wasn't so awkward and he wasn't so frozen we wouldn't even be having this discussion because I would have moved on.

Why do you think LnGrrr is a better lunch?

Well, sorry for not posting recently. I've been a bit busy, but I'll do my best to participate more frequently.

I actually didn't quite understand what was being discussed between Cantrip and Sir Chris over my posts; too convoluted for me

By now, I don't find sufficient evidences to vote someone, but I acutally found particularly interesting that in #216 Rhand suddently jumps into Shadow's vote. Also, the conclusion over Shadow being town seemed suspicious, given it was not explained nor obvious. I could be wrong, of course.
It's actually apparently late to talk about posts this old, but at least it's some clue. Despite seeing some posts expressing confidence about Rhand's township, I'm willing to bet. But I may be convinced to take it back again, of course, since I'm kinda noob at this

\unvote Cantripmancer (I tought I had already unvoted, but ok)
\vote Rhand

I think lngrr's early pursuit of tubba felt predatory, and how he relates tubba to me is pretty hard avoidance of actually talking about me while forcing a scumread.

Lngrr decided to start talking about differing grape metas without waiting to see which appeared in this game. Basically not even a flirt just a wolf whistle

Hes also spent most of his proactive posts encouraging [someone vs someone] rather than pushing [something].

Dudes been naughty

@Will, actually Rhand explained his Shadow town read.

@Tom, you are nigh impossible to lynch. Shadow is also equally hard. I am guessing this town will probably have to wait a day or two, see you guys are still alive, and then put focus on you. It is an unfortunate truth.

Re: the grape meta thing, I really don't get your angle. Go reread my interactions with him in GoT D1 and then my comments beginning D2. My question towards GF wasn't trying to "catch" anyone or anything. It was asking a question I was curious about.

It always worries me that a train I start but decide to let go is then picked up independently.

Also while I love my new members of play, I find it to be a contradiction that Will brushes aside wall after wall of content between me and Cantrip but then speaks with authority on Rhand's conclusion about Shadow stating it was not obvious. You are so new you can't even comprehend the discussion between two players, but you are lecturing on conclusions?

##vote: Will-98

Bad vote and bad reasoning tbh

Also actual new town players in my experience tend to be either gun shy or overly aggressive, but you were both here. You were aggressive in your reasoning when you don't have the experience to make that call, but then you nullify it saying "I am a noob!"

You cannot speak in the game of mafia if you don't have a voice, and you are basically saying "I have no voice because I am new" and yeah your tone in this post is just all over the place.

tfw you completely forget Tubba is in the game

Quote from Sir Chris »

Also actual new town players in my experience tend to be either gun shy or overly aggressive, but you were both here. You were aggressive in your reasoning when you don't have the experience to make that call, but then you nullify it saying "I am a noob!"

You cannot speak in the game of mafia if you don't have a voice, and you are basically saying "I have no voice because I am new" and yeah your tone in this post is just all over the place.

That post was aggressive?

I give two townreads and it's immediately followed up by people saying they want to kill them.

yeet

Silver, the RVS thing has potential, since I don't think it's something Riku would notice or think about. But when I look at the intensity of your push/read vs. the basis for it, it's not really something I can get behind unless we're in danger of missing a lunch.

I don't know if you're using the word lunch on purpose or not but it's fun and I think I'll copy it.

Vaimes
Chris Cantrip tom
Ruma Will ?Silver
[indifferent] Rhand

Game is heading in an easy direction?

Rhand is barely a scumlean, mostly because his scumreads felt super forced.

Feel like I should have a read on shadow and LnGR by now, whee. Gonna say that LnGR pinging null rather than scummy means he can live. shadow I have no idea, I'd maybe say he's a little restrained if I had to give a gun-to-head feeling.

Everyone else is thbtbtbtbtbt.

Okay I'll stop posting now. I'm in a library and have an hour or so to kill, if anyone wants to get a little hot and bothered.

Will has walked by me a couple times and sometimes he looks hot af and sometimes hes walking by on all fours

Sorry for ghosting on everyone. I'm back! Yesterday a short lunch catchup turned into a full day game night.

Will eventually get to the questions about why I like Cantrips wall (though it seems like he's no longer being blitzed like he was at the time).

@Vaimes If I thought I could actually get him lunched I'd still be voting him tbh. Also an aside, it is kind of on purpose and yes it is fun.

I did read the walls today, Chris's make me town lean him a bit harder and Cantrip's are just full of ~reasonableness~. They make me not want to lunch him because they make sense and have good, even tone but they don't really do anything that convinced me he's a villager / that I think is out of his wolf range.

Uhm. Vaimes can be a villager at the same level Shin already was I suppose.

Kind of don't care who we murder as long as it isn't [Chris / tom / Vaimes / Grape]? Feel like there was someone else I forgot.

Like, my preference is Ruma obviously but no one else wants to lunch him and they don't agree with my reasons on him, apparently. If he's a wolf almost certainly someone who said "well you might be right but I want to lunch X instead" is a partner.

But I don't really have a preference otherwise.

Vote count please?

How I thought Will was "aggressive" was him asserting that Rhand's statements weren't obvious, but he really shouldn't be so much of a judge of that.

@Tom am I so boring that you forgot you were skeptical of my reasoning on Rhand? I expected my stubborn reply at the top of this page to get some kind of reaction from you. What are you liking from Rhand here?

@Shadow There were a few things, the first one that caught my eye was the way the he replied to your "why don't you trust Chris question?" because replying with the "I know he's wrong" isn't something that comes naturally for a certain type of scum. Newer players and weaker scum players love to use that sort of bravado but it's not something that comes as naturally for stronger more analytical players. Then at the time I really liked his stuff on Will. Chris' responses are also solid but the way Cantrip dug into it felt like townie solving. It wasn't anything that felt like scum using it to launch some sort of agenda'd movement. The only action was curiosity. Then being the egocentric thinker I am his point about how Chris was handling me rang true. Chris beyond that statement hadn't handled me in a way that suggested he thought I was scum or bad. Maybe he's just a kind and polite gentleman and mentally has me marked as a buffoon but is too polite to say so (in that case please continue being kind and polite and let me pretend to be good at this) but it was something that stood out given his approach to me.

Probably not voting Will today. Not finding this compelling.

Quote from Silvercrys3467 »

If he's a wolf almost certainly someone who said "well you might be right but I want to lunch X instead" is a partner.

Hi daddy I said that.

But I'm pretty much always gonna care more about an actual wolfread than a single digit poster

@Vaimes
Tubbafett, at your service! Was there something you’d like me to fetch for you, or a question I could help you with?

Seriously can we just establish my meta as “works best when engaged with questions” yet? I know it looks scummy af, like I’m not thinking about the game, not trying to solve etc., I’m just not the player to throw my thoughts out unbidden. It’s a confidence thing, like Cantrip mentioned nobody wants to be perceived as “wrong/dumb”. I’m working on it, but for now if you want my opinion it’s better for all of us if you ask me. I’m frustrated that I’m not adapting fast enough, but if the only time you have for me is a drive-by smearing, I wouldn’t say you’re onto the solution.

Ahem

@Cantrip
Who do you have your eye on right now? I want you to talk about someone other than Sir Chris or Cantripmancer.

@SirChris
I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong, but I’d hope there’s more to your Will-98 read than “non-conforming noob”. I’ve been that new guy and it’s not easy to find your footing/style.

Rhand (4) - Silver (#209), vaimes (#299), grape (#300), will (#329)
LnGrr (1) - tom (#144)
tom (1) - LnGrr (#153)
Grape (1) - Rhand (#268)
Will (1) - Chris (#332),
Chris (1) - Cantrip (#230)


Not Voting: Ruma, Tubba, shadow

#329 looks a bit like someone who was told rhand was a good conquest and went for it

Quote from tomsloger »

Rhand (4) - Silver (#209), vaimes (#299), grape (#300), will (#329)
LnGrr (1) - tom (#144)
tom (1) - LnGrr (#153)
Grape (1) - Rhand (#268)
Will (1) - Chris (#332),
Chris (1) - Cantrip (#230)


Not Voting: Ruma, Tubba, shadow

Vote: LnGrrr

Quote from tomsloger »

#329 looks a bit like someone who was told rhand was a good conquest and went for it

Sure but there isn't a big difference between "told to go for it" and seeing something in a sea of foreign sounding jargon that makes sense.

Anyway not loving Tubba's post which kind of feels a bit much. It's not really moving the needle on anything. @Tubba I would like you to answer the same question you asked Cantrip.

Honestly, I didn't mean to be agressive at all.
I even said I could be wrong in my reasoning.
But ok then.