Back in whatever game I was a wolf in and was pushnig tubba or some *****. He seemed like a fighter. He also shades KJ, but instead of trying to get people to vote for him, is trying to make DV happy.
Sorry, that first line was supposed to be context.
So the post needs to be in whole for the mistake to make sense.
This post is clearly designed to be commenting on things as they happen. But the two sections I've put in bold highlight how there seems to be additional information here.
Up to page 2, I'm not super sure why everyone is piling up on LastWhisper so far. I'm not seeing anything crazy.
Nevermind, the whole entry post thing is weird. Not scummy per se, but weird.
[quote from="Lastwhisper »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/805970-death-in-the-family-day-1-just-the-beginning?comment=20"]god all these rvs votes are poop
But... You just made an RVS vote!
This seems weird to me.
Also, if you don't like random voting, contribute meaningfully and get the game out of RVS
Think ill vote kami
And not explain at all but heavily imply i have a really good reason that will inevitably disappoint everyone when i finally reveal it
You do realize RVS is over right? Why are you randomly voting for kami?
Now, Riku and Rodemy look like town to me, while tom and wisp look like scum to me. Vote: tomsloger.
Says the wisp post really sounds like scum, also points out Toms post as disliked. He's chosen someone with no heat and also the leading (as of the read) wagon. ZD has earned 1 scum point.
@killjoy
Rhand has had a very townie entrance and has continued to stay townie so far at least, where does your scum lean come from? Also I'm at work so if I misread your post, I'm sorry
What's the difference between Rhand's entrance and Lngrr's in your mind?
Why are people disliking Grape? Help me.
Question Time (starting page 5)
@TAU - what are your thoughts on Tubba and KA
@Rhand - what are your thoughts on Riku and Vaimes
@Wisp - Top Town Read?
@Tom - Top Town Read?
I voted August for pressure because let’s face it, *****s kicking off an they provided nothing
Any questions for me that I missed?
You're trying to pressure the wind. Stop it.
There wasn't significant pressure on me before Rhands verb case. There were bits and pieces but nothing significant. I don't know what EtR would have read other than scum chat to know I was getting hammered before getting to Rhands verb meta.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
Spicy.
@Last: My issue is that tubba seemed aggro when he was accumulating pressure before, and that isn't uncommon for frustrated town. His response to DV feels like appeasement, and I'll be damned if let appeasement win another battle.
idk hard to say at this point, if not for this supposed meta on Kami, I would still be voting him... And I told my self I would never let bad plays go unlynched just because of meta but low and behold, here I am doing it again, lmao
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
Spicy.
@Last: My issue is that tubba seemed aggro when he was accumulating pressure before, and that isn't uncommon for frustrated town. His response to DV feels like appeasement, and I'll be damned if let appeasement win another battle.
idk hard to say at this point, if not for this supposed meta on Kami, I would still be voting him... And I told my self I would never let bad plays go unlynched just because of meta but low and behold, here I am doing it again, lmao
I am not even looking at kami. I stand by Sir Chris's words that meta is a crunch that throws you in a ditch as often as it keeps you upright. Tom is one of two players I will even consider it with.
My issue is tubba seems to be going out of his way to not ruffle feathers. And not in a rawr rawr DV way, but in a going after people hunting way.
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
I'm back
You've said this a few times. Can you point out what you mean by this?
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
I'm back
You've said this a few times. Can you point out what you mean by this?
Nevermind you did. Hold please.
do you actually read the thread, or just look for posts that mention you? I would like actual thoughts from you, sooner than later
I’m going to wait with explaining why until he has a few more posts in because it’s meta and I don’t want to spoonfeed him what the difference between his town and scum game is before having enough evidence that this is the scum game.
I mean, the option that goes along with him not believing it is just saying stuff to go with blustery confidence im scum so you should wait to see if he just keeps pushing me and looking for connections or is actually thinking things through
But now you have to watch how he reacts to being called out too so that should be fun
Jesus Tom. You're spilling all the beans.
I count probably 8 or 9 people in this thread that I know, that know Tom well enough, to know that we aren't gonna get a good read on him in the first few pages, even when he does something ridiculously scummy. Fair enough?
So is it necessary to actually say that in thread?
Now, the only two people who spoke up about that fact, when Tom did his PR-fishing (which wasn't helpful, especially because the follow up made it super obvious he found one (or did he? Or does LW want scum to think so? WIFOM fo dayz)) were Grape and Rhand.
So in the worlds where I see Tom is scum, doing some kind of weirdo gambit (which to be fair is in his wheelhouse), I don't see Rhand proclaiming him town and also being a scumbuddy. I think that we would see buddies distancing themselves from something like that, which makes Grape's defense a little harder to swallow (he's probably town, BUT TWO RED FLAGS). That's a fence sit if I've ever seen one. Combined with his opportunistic 4th vote on LW, to keep that wagon rolling, doesn't look good.
In the world where Tom is town and is just being Tom, Rhand's read is probably not alignment indicative either way. Scum could be buddying, or town could just be not "reading tom at level 0". Grape's comment still looks gross. Like "here is a little shade for tom, who is probably town"? I don't think that comes from town mindset. Like, I just don't see how it's helpful to state that.
Anyway, my take-away at the moment was I don't like Grape.
So my question for Grape is, when will you share what these red flags are? Can it be now?
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
I'm back
You've said this a few times. Can you point out what you mean by this?
Nevermind you did. Hold please.
do you actually read the thread, or just look for posts that mention you? I would like actual thoughts from you, sooner than later
Barn this. I have been mostly ignoring you because it's hard to h unt under pressure. Underwhelmed with what I have been seeing.
I have to keep reminding myself Riku is in this game as well.
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
I'm back
You've said this a few times. Can you point out what you mean by this?
Nevermind you did. Hold please.
do you actually read the thread, or just look for posts that mention you? I would like actual thoughts from you, sooner than later
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
Oh **** me.
Grape you've said multiple times that reading through Tubba's iso he seems town and anybody scum reading him was obviously scum because he was so obviously town.
And your reason for finding this overwhelming town read?
"Meta F&E" read.
OK buddy.
Burden of proof BTW is on whoever is making the affirmative statement. At best you read him as neutral.
I'd honestly vote you so hard if you didn't have a peek right now.
Time to spoil what I found out about Grape’s meta. It dawned on me after feeling a difference between his tone here and in Ghostbusters, and I checked Pirates (where he was scum) to confirm it.
This post actually makes sense if Rhand is scum and the KJ/Grape town issue is true. It's reading to me as Rhand trying to probe for information and move someone onto Grape.
This feels like Tau discrediting all the top town read people to sow confusion.
Or it’s scum!EtR doing that, being unsure if Tau trueclaimed or not.
Anyhow, I’m town and am pretty sure tom and LW are as well.
I have to think about wether this makes tau/EtR a dichotomy or not.
"This feels like..." "Or" something completely different. Also having to think about whether this is a dichotomy or not. With the way and speed that every jumped on me, this feels extra pensive. This would make a lot of sense if Tau is also town and Rhand wants to wait and gauge reactions.
So EtR goes from town Neighbour to town without rolename and an extra hidden ability if his Neighbour dies.
Right...
vote EtR
The ease with which Kami accepts the lynch cascade is very worrysome. Scum if EtR flips scum.
Etr/kami/grape/?
This post comes and is really an "extra justified" reason to jump on my wagon. He feigns outrage here, as if what I posted was just completely unbelievable. It probably didn't help his cause that Tau has since confirmed everything I said since our roles mirror each other apparently.
unvote
With the claims matching, t/t is the most likely option because I don’t think shadow would create a win more situation.
@tau: do you also not know what ability you can unlock?
Grape / Kami / tubba? / ?
@DV: don’t go and tunnel me and then say stuff like “not sure who was townreading him”. You’re only reading my posts it seems?
Now the unvote and immediately moving on to another whole team. Of which the only one he's really talked about the whole game is Grape. He then voted Grape in his very next post. Which is after the Town claim for Grape.
Oh I just saw it lol. Hard to swallow because I really thought I found something there
It does explain your weird behaviour around the Grape wagon lol.
unvote, vote Kami
I’ll get to analysing people’s reactions to the Grape thing later.
So previously to this post, the only other time I remember him talking about Kami was the last post I quoted where he made up a scum team. So this is essentially a naked vote. He also offers to be a helpful townie TM.
The next few posts are short but he explains that he is phone posting.
All things considered I think Rhand is scum. He hedges a ton and isn't committing to anything that doesn't have at least some traction. I would like to see what others thoughts are on this.
Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove someone scummy. Default assumption is town by math.
But Tubba reads exactly like he did in friends and enemies to me.
Tom is super scummy and just frustrated because I nailed him and gloating because I can't explain it. I can say that because he's on V/LA.
EtR is scum not just because of the gambit but because his catch up implies too much information. It has key parts out of order in what is otherwise a sequential stream of conciousness post.
Oh **** me.
Grape you've said multiple times that reading through Tubba's iso he seems town and anybody scum reading him was obviously scum because he was so obviously town.
And your reason for finding this overwhelming town read?
"Meta F&E" read.
OK buddy.
Burden of proof BTW is on whoever is making the affirmative statement. At best you read him as neutral.
I'd honestly vote you so hard if you didn't have a peek right now.
Wait, are we actually taking the peek seriously and not pretending it's some MU meta bull*****, that for some reason, a few rather ambitious players decided to copy for themselves even though it has about as much effect as a ***** post?
Full cops are pretty out of meta. Full cops with n0 peeks are definitely out of meta. Town wouldn't have a full cop.
I "skimmed" through that iso and while I don't really care for Rhand right now....are you really shading him for being hedgy on page 3, under 200 posts in? Christ, half the game's null list was probably the majority of players.
GJ don't make me scum read...
And again no one said he was a cop... It can be a flavor based green check maybe? Idk, I hate mechanical reads but it's still early enough to leave it a lone for now
GJ don't make me scum read...
And again no one said he was a cop... It can be a flavor based green check maybe? Idk, I hate mechanical reads but it's still early enough to leave it a lone for now
I didn't care when tom made that threat, and I certainly don't care if you make that threat.
KJ is lying, or trying to fps, nothing more. There are one of two roles that would mean a player is mod confirmed to another player, and I assume it's a n0 peek, because I seriously doubt this game has a mason set and neighbor set.
But by all means, please continue. The problem with people who just blindly sheep this n0 with other people who have never done it is it can backfire tremendously.
@DV right so in a world where the default assumption by math is town the affirmative statement is that Tubba is scum. Which is what wagoning him did. I don't see evidence for that affirmative statement and all the reasons presented are bull (Tom basically admitted his was) so I've concluded it was a scum motivated wagon. I don't have strong feelings that Tubba is super duper obvious townie but your little wagon mates had super duper strong feels that he was scum (thus making an affirmative statment) which is why you wagoned him so checkmate atheists.
Like I get it you are smarter than I am but you're jumping through some hoops here to shift the goal posts.
P.S. as I said to wisp earlier and have stated multiple times I never had a hard town read on Tubba, I just had the perspective to see that the scum reads were not substantiated.
GJ don't make me scum read...
And again no one said he was a cop... It can be a flavor based green check maybe? Idk, I hate mechanical reads but it's still early enough to leave it a lone for now
I didn't care when tom made that threat, and I certainly don't care if you make that threat.
KJ is lying, or trying to fps, nothing more. There are one of two roles that would mean a player is mod confirmed to another player, and I assume it's a n0 peek, because I seriously doubt this game has a mason set and neighbor set.
But by all means, please continue. The problem with people who just blindly sheep this n0 with other people who have never done it is it can backfire tremendously.
it wasn't a threat and I wasn't scum reading u for that statement, I understand your thoughts, I was calling you out for the last sentence in your post
Grape is still in my radar, grape has made some of the scummiest posts this game, a long side Kami... call it an FPS, but like if Grape ever does flip red, the killjoy just buried himself, so it was bad FPS if that what it is
Also I made a post saying how I thought grape new killjoys alignment as well, from the same behavior that killjoy was doing with him... But he never responded
When wagons pop up around the time I'd expect scum to be looking for a counter wagon and the reasoning turns out to be garbage for anyone to be on that wagon I'm going to assume there were scum involved.
If it proves to be wrong and that was a pure wagon at end game by all means shove my face in it like I'm a dog who made a mess on the hardwood floors, but given that you suspect Rhand your outrage at my correct statements feels like your temper getting the better of you.
GJ don't make me scum read...
And again no one said he was a cop... It can be a flavor based green check maybe? Idk, I hate mechanical reads but it's still early enough to leave it a lone for now
I didn't care when tom made that threat, and I certainly don't care if you make that threat.
KJ is lying, or trying to fps, nothing more. There are one of two roles that would mean a player is mod confirmed to another player, and I assume it's a n0 peek, because I seriously doubt this game has a mason set and neighbor set.
But by all means, please continue. The problem with people who just blindly sheep this n0 with other people who have never done it is it can backfire tremendously.
it wasn't a threat and I wasn't scum reading u for that statement, I understand your thoughts, I was calling you out for the last sentence in your post
Grape is still in my radar, grape has made some of the scummiest posts this game, a long side Kami... call it an FPS, but like if Grape ever does flip red, the killjoy just buried himself, so it was bad FPS if that what it is
Also I made a post saying how I thought grape new killjoys alignment as well, from the same behavior that killjoy was doing with him... But he never responded
If they are w/w they powerwolfing hard
It's a bad read then, and of all the posts of mine you are wolf reading me is that one then....well, I don't know what to tell you. Besides, what's my wolf motivation to do that?
What post are you referring to? I was looking through Grapes, and he his tone in early iso implies he doesn't know KJ's alignment.
When wagons pop up around the time I'd expect scum to be looking for a counter wagon and the reasoning turns out to be garbage for anyone to be on that wagon I'm going to assume there were scum involved.
If it proves to be wrong and that was a pure wagon at end game by all means shove my face in it like I'm a dog who made a mess on the hardwood floors, but given that you suspect Rhand your outrage at my correct statements feels like your temper getting the better of you.
I really don't like KJ right now, and nothing they have posted recently has made me waiver in that. Why is KJ town, and what does wolf KJ look like?
@EtR so first off you only pulled 2 quotes relevant at the start. The first one is from well after the language tell and is about you/Tau.
Anyway setting that aside all of those you have Rhand setting up the language tell, Tom naked voting, Wisp questioning a couple town reads, and Mindreaver putting a solid scum read on me.
I guess you're technically correct. I didn't consider it real pressure because Tom and wisp both move votes like crazy but to someone less familiar with them it looks more serious.
@GJ my read is super stale but I locked KJ in as town because he was doing a lot of the stuff he and Eco had talked about in spec chats when KJ was trying to improve. A lot of Ecos advice was focused on how to be a better team player and I could feel KJ actively trying to do that in the early game.
The check does nothing for me other than explain why he was hard town reading me early. This game was designed to be simple and presumably low power so I could buy there being a N0 peek on a townie given who our mods are.
I think our speech is influenced a lot by MU, idk how you can say
"Get him DV" and expect me to not see as you trying to control the flow of thread and create turmoil
@grape
I still think, "I don't like how the train grew" isn't even a strong read, you've argued my reads are level-0, so I'll argue that, that read on day 1 means nothing to me,
I think our speech is influenced a lot by MU, idk how you can say
"Get him DV" and expect me to not see as you trying to control the flow of thread and create turmoil
@grape
I still think, "I don't like how the train grew" isn't even a strong read, you've argued my reads are level-0, so I'll argue that, that read on day 1 means nothing to me,
I don't actually care about Grape for the time being. I have made the people I am interested in today quite clear, on MU or not.
The point of "get em" was a pretty clear indication, and a challenge to DV (because I still want to read that slot) that he seems to have a strong wread on grape, but is kneecapping himself ebcause of some likely false green check. If Grape is a wolf, and DV is wolf reading him, what's the hesitation apart from him thinking Mind is better.
When I want to take control of the game, trust me sir, you will know.
@GJ my read is super stale but I locked KJ in as town because he was doing a lot of the stuff he and Eco had talked about in spec chats when KJ was trying to improve. A lot of Ecos advice was focused on how to be a better team player and I could feel KJ actively trying to do that in the early game.
The check does nothing for me other than explain why he was hard town reading me early. This game was designed to be simple and presumably low power so I could buy there being a N0 peek on a townie given who our mods are.
A night 0 peek, I would argue implies a high powered town. At least on this site.
I "skimmed" through that iso and while I don't really care for Rhand right now....are you really shading him for being hedgy on page 3, under 200 posts in? Christ, half the game's null list was probably the majority of players.
So should we not count posts that are made before a certain point? Do scum not gain their knowledge until post 500?
@DV right so in a world where the default assumption by math is town the affirmative statement is that Tubba is scum. Which is what wagoning him did. I don't see evidence for that affirmative statement and all the reasons presented are bull (Tom basically admitted his was) so I've concluded it was a scum motivated wagon. I don't have strong feelings that Tubba is super duper obvious townie but your little wagon mates had super duper strong feels that he was scum (thus making an affirmative statment) which is why you wagoned him so checkmate atheists.
Like I get it you are smarter than I am but you're jumping through some hoops here to shift the goal posts.
P.S. as I said to wisp earlier and have stated multiple times I never had a hard town read on Tubba, I just had the perspective to see that the scum reads were not substantiated.
To be exact with this logic everyone should be 75% town read.
Which is my whole problem with all of your statements.
EtR wagon pops up and people join it with really weak reasons. Meanwhile Tubba wagon starts organically with individual reasons and after giving some decently town answers people get off of the wagon. Meanwhile EtR is being voted for(And proposed as a lynch)for much more decidedly weak reasons.
But, you want to ignore analysis on that, and want to blanket assume a scum was involved. I'm not saying that isn't a possibility.
That being said, I think its highly suspect to apply that logic to one wagon and not the other. At the very least both wagons should have the same analysis by your thought process, but you are ignoring that separate wagon entirely.
I think there are additional problems though. I don't think people should be thought of as town until they do something scummy. I think people should be neutral read. You don't see scum/town lists that have everyone as town and move them down when they do something bad. Quite the opposite, you see people taking slightly scummy moves below null/lurkers and then move other players up based on their actions.
Frankly all Tubba has done is lurk, and push the EtR wagon. I'm not sure how that = town.
But frankly you calling the Tubba wagon garbage is just insulting. To coin your own term use you are tunneled on him being town and not for a good reason. You're discounting that massively scummy post he made where he wants to lynch two people based on the FPS, and on TOP of that he had been lurking up until that point. It was hella genuine. Tom uses the term positioning. I'd use the term "Game Flow". It was a natural reaction to the game state and I wanted to put pressure on it as soon as possible to get results in real time as soon as possible. I find its much harder to fake real time results.
I can't speak for the other's motivations, but Tom's seemed very much aligned with my thought process there.
Anyways, I'm not sure if there was or wasn't scum on that wagon. I'm town so I'll never be sure till end game, but I feel like its wrong for you to apply that logic to that wagon alone. All of your points can be applied to any of the wagons that have formed so far, and that's an issue. When points are so generic to apply to everything then you probabally don't have a lot of weight behind your logic.
It's a high powered role but that doesn't mean the game is high powered. If the setup is just say the N0 check, a 1 shot vig, and a limited shot doc and scum has an RB and a rolecop that's low powered and low complexity despite a few high powered roles.
@Wisp I don't recall saying your reads are level zero this game but what does that have to do with an unnatural wagon formation that most people on it admit wasn't as valid as they thought when wagoning? And why don't you find it valid? Is it because you were on it and my saying what I'm saying feels like a personal attack?
I "skimmed" through that iso and while I don't really care for Rhand right now....are you really shading him for being hedgy on page 3, under 200 posts in? Christ, half the game's null list was probably the majority of players.
So should we not count posts that are made before a certain point? Do scum not gain their knowledge until post 500?
Are you going to tell me with a straight face that people don't hedge and have solid reads early into day 1? I would argue you are 50 posts past rvs (not literally).
That's a tad bit of a stretch. I have been hedging on tubba for the last 100+ posts and it is much latter in the game. That probably looks worse if you think hedging is something only wolves do.
i didnt even look at the formation of the wagon, I dont care for it at this time, I just reread Tubba... there have been so many wagons that have come and gone, and idk why you are so focused on the tubba wagon...
ive been on every wagon for the most part, and no, i dont see it as a personal attack, I just agree with others in the fact that, I feel like you are being dismissive of everyone else's thoughts and votes on Tubba, by just claiming it is a garbage train because it seemed forced after everyone moved off ETR, there's 16 players, the wagon could easily just be town growth, without any mafia influence, and we wouldn't be able to really notice unless from our own subjective opinions we thought someone joined it in a scummy way
and I think the best part of all this, is that you arguing that Tubba wagons growth was unnantural, when people actually gave reasons why he is scum, but yet its different with ETR, because you have reasons to call him scum, even though several people voted him off pretty *****ty reasons, aka tubba, and Rhand, and you can even say my vote was *****, and Kami's for sure
DV here is the thing: even if you want to argue that EtR responded in a townie way (which I have belatedly come to agree with) his was did not form on weak reasons. Tau's gotcha was a valid reason for a wagon to form! It would have been super weird if one didn't. That's what makes it different to the Tubba situation. There are valid reasons for the RtR wagon to diffuse now but that does not make the initial pile on incorrect.
Now for assuming town vs scum it's not the same as sorting for a t/s list. When a null read makes a statement I generally approach it with that 75% town worldview. Doesn't make them a town read but I generally accept statements at face value unless I have reason not to. Which is in line with a default assumption of town. I don't know if that's how most people do it but it seems to be the case since people will call people a strong scum read and then guesstimate a 40% chance to flip scum.
Read walls don't adhere to that because they are an effort to show people's alignments relative to the default assumption. It's why people complain about having too many scum reads.
Anyway I am discounting Tubba's "one massively scummy post" because posts like that tend to come from hyper active town and not scum. Yes it is anti-town to want to chain kill both people involved in the FPS without thinking about it but I don't think it's scum indicative. If you disagree that's fine. You being so focused on that post is why I'm explicitly not as interested in you being scum off that wagon. You clearly believe it's much more indicative than I believe it to be making you being on the wagon much more natural.
Tom and Rhand don't have that excuse. And as for game flow I guess that's my argument too because I'd expect scum to want to be not all on the main wagon but also not voting off in nowhere land. So they would be eager to be on anything else hot.
@ETR
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
Quote from ETR »
All three of these votes came before the Rhand language post.
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
Maybe we should just kill everyone who thought tubba was scum and call it a day. There is no world where everyone pushing him was town.
why tubba wagon over last wagon? Or grape wagon? Or... ******* etr wagon?
Because there were demonstrable reasons those wagons existed. The tubba wagon had zero reason to exist and was pushed with great confidence by a few players over 1(?) post that was not well reasoned.
The last wagon cropped up in RVS and was fake pushed by me. As fun as it was I don't have a ton of confidence drawing conclusions from the wagon itself. Reactions to it were more valuable than the wagon.
My wagon had legit reasons behind it and since most people sheeped Rhand it's hard to sort. Vaimes looks slightly sketchy for his unecessary alternative reasoning but you've already provided semi compelling reasoning why that might be townie for Vaimes specifically.
The EtR wagon was full of either excited townies overreacting or scum pretending to overreact. It's not the easiest wagon to parse.
The tubba wagon had no mitigating circumstances and cropped up around the time I'd expect a counterwagon to be hopped on by wolves for "contrarian" credit.
I "skimmed" through that iso and while I don't really care for Rhand right now....are you really shading him for being hedgy on page 3, under 200 posts in? Christ, half the game's null list was probably the majority of players.
So should we not count posts that are made before a certain point? Do scum not gain their knowledge until post 500?
Are you going to tell me with a straight face that people don't hedge and have solid reads early into day 1? I would argue you are 50 posts past rvs (not literally).
That's a tad bit of a stretch. I have been hedging on tubba for the last 100+ posts and it is much latter in the game. That probably looks worse if you think hedging is something only wolves do.
I’m going to argue that it adds to the overall case.
@ETR
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
Quote from ETR »
All three of these votes came before the Rhand language post.
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
@ETR
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
Quote from ETR »
All three of these votes came before the Rhand language post.
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
What?
DUDE DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU POSTED... i swear you are so fake...
Again this is based on the assumption that it was initially correct (before EtR answered) for players of either alignment to vote or signal interest in voting for EtR. DV if you want to specifically argue we're bad for that I'll accept that you believe it but clearly based on the reaction in the thread that is a minority opinion and probably shouldn't be applied to random player x.
anyways, can we all agree that ETR is just an echo chamber at this point? Posting thoughts with no conclusions? pretty sure this dude is just in anti-spew mode at this point
@DV
again ignoring the whole gambit, can you honestly tell me, that none of ETR's post ping you?
@ETR
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
Quote from ETR »
All three of these votes came before the Rhand language post.
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
What?
DUDE DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU POSTED... i swear you are so fake...
You must have not read Grape's concern with my post. I'll let you go back and read it. You should be able to puzzle it out from there.
@Grape
another tid bit, is that the dude who is calling you town based off a green check he received via his role, would probably be voting you if not for the check...
Wisp just to clarify in popular usage posting thoughts without conclusions is kind of the opposite of what an echo chamber is. An echo chamber is generally seen as finding people who spout the same conclusions as you and patting each other on the back for all having reached the same "right" conclusion.
Anyway I actually have been net impressed by EtR this page but mostly because my memory was wrong.
@ETR
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
Quote from ETR »
All three of these votes came before the Rhand language post.
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
What?
DUDE DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU POSTED... i swear you are so fake...
You must have not read Grape's concern with my post. I'll let you go back and read it. You should be able to puzzle it out from there.
ya I read it, and I have no idea what it means, I would need @Grape to restate what he was trying to say there, still doesnt answer my question, because again you literally just shaded me... for calling Killjoy's town read fake because he had no reason to HAVE IT.... AND HE LITERALLY OUTTED THE FACT THAT I WAS RIGHT, BECAUSE IT WAS SOLELY BASED ON A GREEN CHECK HE HAD
@Grape
another tid bit, is that the dude who is calling you town based off a green check he received via his role, would probably be voting you if not for the check...
I noticed and it is probably because I am taking advantage of the green check to run through this game bull in a China shop. Given that I'll never be the day kill before KJ I might as well challenge EVERYTHING and not worry at all about what people think of me. Which is normally much higher in my concerns.
@ETR
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
What?
DUDE DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU POSTED... i swear you are so fake...
You must have not read Grape's concern with my post. I'll let you go back and read it. You should be able to puzzle it out from there.
ya I read it, and I have no idea what it means, I would need @Grape to restate what he was trying to say there, still doesnt answer my question, because again you literally just shaded me... for calling Killjoy's town read fake because he had no reason to HAVE IT.... AND HE LITERALLY OUTTED THE FACT THAT I WAS RIGHT, BECAUSE IT WAS SOLELY BASED ON A GREEN CHECK HE HAD
How did I shade you? You are clearly missing the context of the post. Grape was concerned that I had formed a read out of order because I had claimed that there was heat on him before he recalled there being any. I pointed out that there were votes on him prior to Rhand posting what he did about his "tell". Yours happen to be one of those votes. This had nothing to do with you per se. I was just using your vote as an example of the looks Grape was getting at the time.
Sorry, that first line was supposed to be context.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
This post is clearly designed to be commenting on things as they happen. But the two sections I've put in bold highlight how there seems to be additional information here.
Says the wisp post really sounds like scum, also points out Toms post as disliked. He's chosen someone with no heat and also the leading (as of the read) wagon. ZD has earned 1 scum point.
There wasn't significant pressure on me before Rhands verb case. There were bits and pieces but nothing significant. I don't know what EtR would have read other than scum chat to know I was getting hammered before getting to Rhands verb meta.
I am not even looking at kami. I stand by Sir Chris's words that meta is a crunch that throws you in a ditch as often as it keeps you upright. Tom is one of two players I will even consider it with.
My issue is tubba seems to be going out of his way to not ruffle feathers. And not in a rawr rawr DV way, but in a going after people hunting way.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I'm back
You've said this a few times. Can you point out what you mean by this?
Nevermind you did. Hold please.
All three of these votes came before the Rhand language post.
Still before
...
Like, what are you talking about?
Barn this. I have been mostly ignoring you because it's hard to h unt under pressure. Underwhelmed with what I have been seeing.
I have to keep reminding myself Riku is in this game as well.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I skim mostly
Oh **** me.
Grape you've said multiple times that reading through Tubba's iso he seems town and anybody scum reading him was obviously scum because he was so obviously town.
And your reason for finding this overwhelming town read?
"Meta F&E" read.
OK buddy.
Burden of proof BTW is on whoever is making the affirmative statement. At best you read him as neutral.
I'd honestly vote you so hard if you didn't have a peek right now.
Still early in the game, but this could be avoiding giving too many opinions as scum.
Potential hedging on Mind. Leaving his options open.
More hedging this time on Tubba
We have a solid stance on something!
Oh wait. No we don't.
I do like this post from Rhand. But if it 's true that Grapefruit is town, this could be a way for Rhand to onto him.
Several posts following this one deal with the follow up questions from the Grape post. Not really moving any other theories or thoughts forward.
This post actually makes sense if Rhand is scum and the KJ/Grape town issue is true. It's reading to me as Rhand trying to probe for information and move someone onto Grape.
"This feels like..." "Or" something completely different. Also having to think about whether this is a dichotomy or not. With the way and speed that every jumped on me, this feels extra pensive. This would make a lot of sense if Tau is also town and Rhand wants to wait and gauge reactions.
This post comes and is really an "extra justified" reason to jump on my wagon. He feigns outrage here, as if what I posted was just completely unbelievable. It probably didn't help his cause that Tau has since confirmed everything I said since our roles mirror each other apparently.
Now the unvote and immediately moving on to another whole team. Of which the only one he's really talked about the whole game is Grape. He then voted Grape in his very next post. Which is after the Town claim for Grape.
So previously to this post, the only other time I remember him talking about Kami was the last post I quoted where he made up a scum team. So this is essentially a naked vote. He also offers to be a helpful townie TM.
The next few posts are short but he explains that he is phone posting.
All things considered I think Rhand is scum. He hedges a ton and isn't committing to anything that doesn't have at least some traction. I would like to see what others thoughts are on this.
Wait, are we actually taking the peek seriously and not pretending it's some MU meta bull*****, that for some reason, a few rather ambitious players decided to copy for themselves even though it has about as much effect as a ***** post?
Full cops are pretty out of meta. Full cops with n0 peeks are definitely out of meta. Town wouldn't have a full cop.
Go nuts DV. GET EM
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
And again no one said he was a cop... It can be a flavor based green check maybe? Idk, I hate mechanical reads but it's still early enough to leave it a lone for now
I didn't care when tom made that threat, and I certainly don't care if you make that threat.
KJ is lying, or trying to fps, nothing more. There are one of two roles that would mean a player is mod confirmed to another player, and I assume it's a n0 peek, because I seriously doubt this game has a mason set and neighbor set.
But by all means, please continue. The problem with people who just blindly sheep this n0 with other people who have never done it is it can backfire tremendously.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Like I get it you are smarter than I am but you're jumping through some hoops here to shift the goal posts.
P.S. as I said to wisp earlier and have stated multiple times I never had a hard town read on Tubba, I just had the perspective to see that the scum reads were not substantiated.
Grape is still in my radar, grape has made some of the scummiest posts this game, a long side Kami... call it an FPS, but like if Grape ever does flip red, the killjoy just buried himself, so it was bad FPS if that what it is
Also I made a post saying how I thought grape new killjoys alignment as well, from the same behavior that killjoy was doing with him... But he never responded
If they are w/w they powerwolfing hard
If it proves to be wrong and that was a pure wagon at end game by all means shove my face in it like I'm a dog who made a mess on the hardwood floors, but given that you suspect Rhand your outrage at my correct statements feels like your temper getting the better of you.
It's a bad read then, and of all the posts of mine you are wolf reading me is that one then....well, I don't know what to tell you. Besides, what's my wolf motivation to do that?
What post are you referring to? I was looking through Grapes, and he his tone in early iso implies he doesn't know KJ's alignment.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I really don't like KJ right now, and nothing they have posted recently has made me waiver in that. Why is KJ town, and what does wolf KJ look like?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Anyway setting that aside all of those you have Rhand setting up the language tell, Tom naked voting, Wisp questioning a couple town reads, and Mindreaver putting a solid scum read on me.
I guess you're technically correct. I didn't consider it real pressure because Tom and wisp both move votes like crazy but to someone less familiar with them it looks more serious.
It still feels wrong to me but it's plausible.
The check does nothing for me other than explain why he was hard town reading me early. This game was designed to be simple and presumably low power so I could buy there being a N0 peek on a townie given who our mods are.
"Get him DV" and expect me to not see as you trying to control the flow of thread and create turmoil
@grape
I still think, "I don't like how the train grew" isn't even a strong read, you've argued my reads are level-0, so I'll argue that, that read on day 1 means nothing to me,
I don't actually care about Grape for the time being. I have made the people I am interested in today quite clear, on MU or not.
The point of "get em" was a pretty clear indication, and a challenge to DV (because I still want to read that slot) that he seems to have a strong wread on grape, but is kneecapping himself ebcause of some likely false green check. If Grape is a wolf, and DV is wolf reading him, what's the hesitation apart from him thinking Mind is better.
When I want to take control of the game, trust me sir, you will know.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
A night 0 peek, I would argue implies a high powered town. At least on this site.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
So should we not count posts that are made before a certain point? Do scum not gain their knowledge until post 500?
To be exact with this logic everyone should be 75% town read.
Which is my whole problem with all of your statements.
EtR wagon pops up and people join it with really weak reasons. Meanwhile Tubba wagon starts organically with individual reasons and after giving some decently town answers people get off of the wagon. Meanwhile EtR is being voted for(And proposed as a lynch)for much more decidedly weak reasons.
But, you want to ignore analysis on that, and want to blanket assume a scum was involved. I'm not saying that isn't a possibility.
That being said, I think its highly suspect to apply that logic to one wagon and not the other. At the very least both wagons should have the same analysis by your thought process, but you are ignoring that separate wagon entirely.
I think there are additional problems though. I don't think people should be thought of as town until they do something scummy. I think people should be neutral read. You don't see scum/town lists that have everyone as town and move them down when they do something bad. Quite the opposite, you see people taking slightly scummy moves below null/lurkers and then move other players up based on their actions.
Frankly all Tubba has done is lurk, and push the EtR wagon. I'm not sure how that = town.
But frankly you calling the Tubba wagon garbage is just insulting. To coin your own term use you are tunneled on him being town and not for a good reason. You're discounting that massively scummy post he made where he wants to lynch two people based on the FPS, and on TOP of that he had been lurking up until that point. It was hella genuine. Tom uses the term positioning. I'd use the term "Game Flow". It was a natural reaction to the game state and I wanted to put pressure on it as soon as possible to get results in real time as soon as possible. I find its much harder to fake real time results.
I can't speak for the other's motivations, but Tom's seemed very much aligned with my thought process there.
Anyways, I'm not sure if there was or wasn't scum on that wagon. I'm town so I'll never be sure till end game, but I feel like its wrong for you to apply that logic to that wagon alone. All of your points can be applied to any of the wagons that have formed so far, and that's an issue. When points are so generic to apply to everything then you probabally don't have a lot of weight behind your logic.
@Wisp I don't recall saying your reads are level zero this game but what does that have to do with an unnatural wagon formation that most people on it admit wasn't as valid as they thought when wagoning? And why don't you find it valid? Is it because you were on it and my saying what I'm saying feels like a personal attack?
Are you going to tell me with a straight face that people don't hedge and have solid reads early into day 1? I would argue you are 50 posts past rvs (not literally).
That's a tad bit of a stretch. I have been hedging on tubba for the last 100+ posts and it is much latter in the game. That probably looks worse if you think hedging is something only wolves do.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
ive been on every wagon for the most part, and no, i dont see it as a personal attack, I just agree with others in the fact that, I feel like you are being dismissive of everyone else's thoughts and votes on Tubba, by just claiming it is a garbage train because it seemed forced after everyone moved off ETR, there's 16 players, the wagon could easily just be town growth, without any mafia influence, and we wouldn't be able to really notice unless from our own subjective opinions we thought someone joined it in a scummy way
Now for assuming town vs scum it's not the same as sorting for a t/s list. When a null read makes a statement I generally approach it with that 75% town worldview. Doesn't make them a town read but I generally accept statements at face value unless I have reason not to. Which is in line with a default assumption of town. I don't know if that's how most people do it but it seems to be the case since people will call people a strong scum read and then guesstimate a 40% chance to flip scum.
Read walls don't adhere to that because they are an effort to show people's alignments relative to the default assumption. It's why people complain about having too many scum reads.
Anyway I am discounting Tubba's "one massively scummy post" because posts like that tend to come from hyper active town and not scum. Yes it is anti-town to want to chain kill both people involved in the FPS without thinking about it but I don't think it's scum indicative. If you disagree that's fine. You being so focused on that post is why I'm explicitly not as interested in you being scum off that wagon. You clearly believe it's much more indicative than I believe it to be making you being on the wagon much more natural.
Tom and Rhand don't have that excuse. And as for game flow I guess that's my argument too because I'd expect scum to want to be not all on the main wagon but also not voting off in nowhere land. So they would be eager to be on anything else hot.
also wtf are your ...'ing I was completely right in my statement... the dude was unnaturally town reading Grape, and we know why now, because he claimed to have a green on Grape because of his role...
so whats your conclusion? since you stated this, but didnt conclude that it meant anything? Exactly where were you going with this?
I’m going to argue that it adds to the overall case.
What?
anyways, can we all agree that ETR is just an echo chamber at this point? Posting thoughts with no conclusions? pretty sure this dude is just in anti-spew mode at this point
@DV
again ignoring the whole gambit, can you honestly tell me, that none of ETR's post ping you?
Riku needs more heat though, but if both wagons were Mind/Etr, I wouldn't be sad for today.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You must have not read Grape's concern with my post. I'll let you go back and read it. You should be able to puzzle it out from there.
another tid bit, is that the dude who is calling you town based off a green check he received via his role, would probably be voting you if not for the check...
Anyway I actually have been net impressed by EtR this page but mostly because my memory was wrong.
I noticed and it is probably because I am taking advantage of the green check to run through this game bull in a China shop. Given that I'll never be the day kill before KJ I might as well challenge EVERYTHING and not worry at all about what people think of me. Which is normally much higher in my concerns.
How did I shade you? You are clearly missing the context of the post. Grape was concerned that I had formed a read out of order because I had claimed that there was heat on him before he recalled there being any. I pointed out that there were votes on him prior to Rhand posting what he did about his "tell". Yours happen to be one of those votes. This had nothing to do with you per se. I was just using your vote as an example of the looks Grape was getting at the time.