@Riku, that's the towninest thing you have said this game... though that isn't saying much, and it is weird you are saying so about your highest town read. Don't see why you wouldn't wait for a D2 to see if there was a vig or something.
Can you explain your Eco case? or is it one of those, "Guys just trust me" things?
@Rhand, town can be wrong. I don't see why you would change your reads too much based off other players opinions, especially D1.
@all, we should probably consolidate wagons here. Having a bunch of 2 vote wagons isn't bad now, but will suck as we go later into the Day. I don't want to be running around like decapitated chickens to avoid a no lynch and give scum an easy reason to excuse their vote.
Personally, lynches I would be willing to vote are Riku, Highroller, Rhand, and Vezok. I would prefer to leave Shadow, Cheesecake, and GJ for another Day. Would not vote Cantrip, Tom, Eco or Vaimes.
Tom is just meta. I think GJ is right.
Cantrip is on the backburner now, I don’t trust him yet.
You’re one of my townreads. Look at what you just wrote. There’s no point digging into my Cantrip read now when y’all are not interested in him anyways.
@cantrip: When have you known me to be cautious scum?
I do think specifically consolidating wagons this early is unecessary, but see who would be willing to vote where isn’t a bad call. Currently I’d lynch highroller and possibly vez. If Ruma actually continues to make real posts I’d hold off, but if he disappears back into the ether then I’d lynch him.
@cantrip: Riku being your second highest town read and then having a bunch of nulls in order feels downright crazy. Can you walk me through what posts make you think Riku is that town? He dropped for me to neutral after the policy lynch comments.
...I walked you through my reasoning in literally the same post, so are you just not paying attention, eh? I can add that I really like his RVS posts, but my townread of him is based almost entirely off him "saving" HR. Although, as I said, I don't feel like he's "saving" HR as much as trying to make this game a saner space to exist in. Scum doesn't do that; scum revels in the chaos and noise.
@Cantrip, it is a term from ISO, but essentially it is someone posting, "I am.so busy!" without discussing anything going on in the thread. In the game I was in with Iso and Manders, he called her out for this meta and she turned out to be scum. While named after her, I recall (vaguely, it was awhile ago) having a discussion with him on whether it applied generally or specifically to Manders, and he said he thinks it applies in general. So I am on the lookout for those sorts of posts. (Town can be overly explanatory when prodding too, but I think town usually is like, "Got busy, will answer when I get back")
Thanks.
Quote from LnG »
Also, disagree with your stance on Riku re: his claim. I think given that it was billed to be high complexity, that only someone who isn't paying attention (cough Highroller) would think that burner phone usage is the only way to spend coins. Riku's soft claim is pillow downy charming soft. And frankly, if he is a townPR, why save Highroller? Argue against his lynch, sure, but why soft claim at all? Let's say Riku is town and gets mislynched. Does that confirm highroller as town? no, because high could still be playing as dumbscum. Just makes no sense to me as town.
Now, if he is scum, he can wait until Highroller is lynched, then say something like, "I told you so, let's look again stunt wagon", etc etc.
Gonna have to agree to disagree, then, because I feel like it makes no sense as scum. I guess...if I squint I could see it being scum-scum, less "buddy-saving" and more "scum theatre", but I don't feel like that's likely. I just don't see scum!HCR (Hermit Crab Riku) (or any experienced scum, really, but especially not a hermit crab) coming out of his hidey hole, locking himself into even a soft claim, and white knighting a player who isn't anywhere close to being lynched. Even if Riku thought an HR lynch was likely, why choose NOW to "save" him? And I just don't believe that, if HR is town, scum aren't LOVING the noise he's making. Yeah, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. And the policy lynch support just feels like more town frustration. Like "ok, you guys won't accept my clear logic? Then let's eliminate the frustration another way."
My reason for looking into tom’s meta and doubting my Cantrip read is that my townreads have them mostly in their townpile
Hmm...ok, I could see that. So here's why I feel conflicted about my scum read on you. My reasoning for thinking you scum is somewhat nebulous. You're attacking my town game, so there's a little bit of OMGUS there, but I'm mostly leery because I don't see you re-evaluating or assessing much. And now that you say you're starting to doubt your read on me, it's not because of anything I've said, but because others think I'm town (and your 703 confirms you still think I'm scum; just not worth pursuing at this point). So you're still not really re-assessing; you're just not pursuing me as avidly. This feels like scum who made it their personal mission to get me mislynched.
The conflict comes from what I feel I know of you/your meta. I don't think you're the kind of scum who a) sets out to get specific people mislynched, or b) decides to go after ME, in particular. If you're scum, you know it's going to be a slogging uphill battle the whole way, with lots of textwalls that you'll have to at least read, even if you don't actually respond to them. Not that you'd shirk from the challenge, but there'd just be...easier ways to deal with me. I'm not that good as town that I actually think scum fear town!me, so I don't think you'd set out to head me off at the pass out of fear that I'd suss you out (although the irony if you did exactly that and I'm now figuring you out because of it would be delicious). I actually thought that your initial attack on me was towny because of the conviction, but...no re-assessing, despite the posts I've made.
So...I'm conflicted. Please post more. In fact, let's start with your question to GJ in 422. What made you ask that question? What did you expect to learn? Etc.
@cantrip: When have you known me to be cautious scum?
FTFY. Like, normally I'd be like "hmm, Shadow's playing things a little close to the vest, maybe power role", but then you claimed VT, so that's not it.
@Shadow: You haven't commented on my alignment for the last 450-ish posts of the game, when you mentioned that you didn't think I was scum. What percentage are you at for me being town/scum? Actually, could I get a general reads list from you? Reasons would be lovely, but at minimum a general Town-to-Scum?
Cantrip scum for giving ruma a townread that requires him having thread awareness, a plan, and his logic to make sense.
That said preferred lynch pool is rhand>>>vez>>highroller>[huge gap]>ruma/shadow/whatever
Rhand still 90% scum the progression on me is just never real seriously read his iso looking for me. Nothing original at all, always just the easiest stance that someone has already posited. And his return is entirely based on conforming he doesnt care about his opinions at all and apparently spent his time metaing me despite having played with me a dozen times and me being demonstrably unlynchable.
Riku's comment about policy lynching his highest townread is ????
@cantrip: Riku being your second highest town read and then having a bunch of nulls in order feels downright crazy. Can you walk me through what posts make you think Riku is that town? He dropped for me to neutral after the policy lynch comments.
This was the first reaction I had to it, but on reflection, I just don't think that scum Riku would bother tying himself to a soft claim in order to try to stop an incredibly easy lynch from happening, only to immediately jepordise any town points gained by being open to the policy lynch. You could say he was trying to have his cake as well as eat it by getting HR lynched and also reading him as town, but that's just a pointless risk to take.
Personally, lynches I would be willing to vote are Riku, Highroller, Rhand, and Vezok. I would prefer to leave Shadow, Cheesecake, and GJ for another Day. Would not vote Cantrip, Tom, Eco or Vaimes.
Could you explain your thoughts behind Rhand there?
++++++++
My lynch list is like Shadow>Rhand?>GJ>>>>>Highroller>>>>>other people. It's not very impressive, so I think I need to try and take stock of things here. In particular, a lot of my world view is revolving around my Shadow scum read, and I've got quite a few associative/dissacociate reads resulting from it. So I think my first step is to check my premise and try to get more of an objective read on Shadow, and then try to set aside associations and look at people like Rhand, Tom, and Cantrip more independently. I can't promise when it will happen, but hopefully soon.
I have a N0 innocent check on tom. Best late Christmas present ever.
That's a pretty sweet thing to get sniped by.
I’m yet unconvinced this is a real thing, but man I hope it is. I don’t think Vaimes should speak to that either way, today, but I’m also curious on why now?
Rhand hasn't struck me as particularly towny, and I'm willing to sheep Tom somewhat. He has posts, but none of them feel weighty. Lack of effort-ish, maybe? I don't want to say that like Rhand doesn't care, but I just haven't seen anything that strikes me strongly either way, which is somewhat weird. The only reason Vezok is up on is because Vezok noted the Cheesecake attack on Tom the same way I did. That felt towny to me.
@Vaimes, while I think that's like... 99% BS, I think you and he are both town anyways so *shrug* I'll assume it's to get people off Tom's case and onto a more viable lynch.
::::::::::::::::::::::
I feel like a Vaimes style of player right now. I feel good about my town reads, mixed but pretty good about highroller, and then meh otherwise. The line between more positive feelings and shrug feelings is between Vaimes and Cantrip.
I really would like more people to flesh out their eco read, because I want to believe he’s town, I just am not convinced. I’m also pretty sure Rhand is town, but I’ll concede that that read is based off of mind meld (I don’t think he faked it though). I absolutely wouldn’t stand for his lynch though.
I’ve got a few light associative influences based around highroller, probably nothing that would rock my world, but if he’s town I will absolutely be revisiting all the interactions around him.
So...I'm conflicted. Please post more. In fact, let's start with your question to GJ in 422. What made you ask that question? What did you expect to learn? Etc.
That was me asking a townread to weigh in on my scumread.
@Rhand, what is (at least) one thing that is really throwing you for a loop this game? Some weird stances, or weird reads list, whatever. (If there's multiple, feel free to throw out more than one.)
@cantrip: When have you known me to be cautious scum?
FTFY. Like, normally I'd be like "hmm, Shadow's playing things a little close to the vest, maybe power role", but then you claimed VT, so that's not it.
Serious question, when have you seen me play closer to the vest as a PR vs VT?
Quote from Cantrip »
@Shadow: You haven't commented on my alignment for the last 450-ish posts of the game, when you mentioned that you didn't think I was scum. What percentage are you at for me being town/scum? Actually, could I get a general reads list from you? Reasons would be lovely, but at minimum a general Town-to-Scum?
I have no idea on you, and that irks me pretty hard because I always have an idea on you. Not getting many scum vibes from you has made me think that you’re town, but I’m also not having very strong town feels from you either. I’m a little bothered by your apparently strong scum read on me, because even when I’m scum you’ve never been so confident, but I’m attempting to not let that affect my read on you.
Actually that brings me to a bigger flaw I’m noticing in myself; I feel like I’m having trouble not OMGUSing in this game. And like, part of me says that it’s just me being bad at this game, but the other part of me knows that it can’t be all townies who just can’t read me.
If Vaimes is telling the truth about the Tom check,
Also Shadow is not even responding to me now. More votes on Shadow, please. EWP: Oh, there's a town/scum list...eh...hmmm...
@Shadow: Do you still support a policy lynch of Ruma? What took me from "don't think he's scum" back in 263 to maybe just outside the scumteam? I know I had a good sized activity gap in there, but you seriously don't have ANY takes/reactions/questions/responses on/to/for/to me since 263.
Whup, and I got ninja'd again. Admitting my own potential confbias/tunnel here, but you having a hard time reading me makes me feel that it's more likely that you're scum. Because you've proven that you can read me. Like...I had pretty much given up on playing scum against you because you'd just lolvote me and go on to win the game. So you saying that I'm a mystery is a big warning light. Why nothing for the last 450 posts to try to figure me out if you're having a hard time? Why nothing now?
As for your question, I don't know that I can think of a game that I played with you as VT. Has there been one?
@Tom: What happened to change your opinion between 571 and 706 where Shadow moved from "Scum acting like scum" to "above the huge gap, above Rhand, Vez, and HR"?
@Rhand: AFAICT, he never responded. Obv you're not going to follow up on questions to your town reads as avidly as those to your scum reads, but...that doesn't sound like you're asking him to weigh in on Tom. It sounds like you're pointedly questioning what you see as a gap in GJ's reads. Not the case? Also, no thoughts on my take on you?
Apart from a reads list, could you give a "Would definitely lynch/maybe lynch/definitely not lynch" list? If it matches your reads list (say, scum/null/town) that's fine, just say so. (And if you would like to put the post number of your reads list, that would be super peachy keen.)
We have about 4 days left, and that time will go quick. We should determine two or three candidates and then hear arguments for/against those individuals.
Would Vote For to Prevent No Lynch
Highroller
SleepyCheesecake
vezokpiraka
Gentleman Johnny
Would Certainly Vote For
Rhand
Shadowlancerx
@LnG: Do you still feel like scum!Riku posts #652? What are the primary reasons behind your willingness to lynch HR? Same with Vezok?
I'd also like to request that we not just agree on a lynch and go for it, due to the Bounty mechanic. I know it's probably going to be hard to coordinate, but I think it would be ideal if we go to a point where we had a player a L-2 and had two players off the wagon express desire to vote (confirming the intent to lynch, as well as the "real" lynch wagon, which we'd document), and then decide who gets to be on the wagon to get coins. In case coordination turns out to be too difficult, I'll note that I would likely be willing to give up my space on the lynch wagon (if I'm on it when the time comes) for a player whom I'm strongly townreading to get the coin in my place, at least for toDay's wagon.
@Cantrip, I will be very surprised if there isn't scum between Riku, HR, and Vezok. It just makes no sense to me that all three of them could be town. It's not... super rational, but the idea that HR is town, and town!Riku decided to claim and town!Vezok came in to defend him like he's his little brother... that just doesn't compute for me. Maybe a gut read. Riku's last posts actually feel like he might play the game, but I'd have to see more. I could still see 652 coming from scum though, for reasons I mentioned upthread. (Essentially, he's not REALLY claiming, and I could see scum!Riku utilizing that if HR came up town, by saying he argued against his lynch and scummy people still pushed it despite his softclaim.) If HR flipped vanilla scum though, probably gives townpoints to Riku, as I don't think scum!Riku would blatantly try to save a scumbuddy at his own risk. I know I wouldn't, and would probably try to bus instead. But I'm also a pretty poor Mafia player, so *shrug*.
I don't necessarily think we should play this for coins. It will mess up votecount examination later if have reasons to do so. (If more info comes out that would make this plan make more sense to me, I reserve the right to change my mind.)
@Cantrip: that post you made about me and you putting me in the will definitely vote for pile doesn’t mesh. Explain please.
Also, it’s GJ that convinced me to go look into tom’s meta. So yes, he did respond.
@Lngr: I think Vezok and Highroller both are good lynches. Apart from that I’m unsure. Cantrip / Eco bug me most I guess. I think I did a new discovery about myself this game: I work better when I’m not under any pressure. The certainty with which some players call me scum throws me off my game and puts me into omgus mode. I need to take a step back and look at the game with fresh eyes.
@Cantrip: In truth, me not thinking you’re scum in like 3 posts probably means you’re town, but your play so far is just super bubbly and atypical. Also (as I mentioned above) your scum read of me just doesn’t sit well with me.
@Cantrip, I will be very surprised if there isn't scum between Riku, HR, and Vezok. It just makes no sense to me that all three of them could be town. It's not... super rational, but the idea that HR is town, and town!Riku decided to claim and town!Vezok came in to defend him like he's his little brother... that just doesn't compute for me. Maybe a gut read. Riku's last posts actually feel like he might play the game, but I'd have to see more. I could still see 652 coming from scum though, for reasons I mentioned upthread. (Essentially, he's not REALLY claiming, and I could see scum!Riku utilizing that if HR came up town, by saying he argued against his lynch and scummy people still pushed it despite his softclaim.) If HR flipped vanilla scum though, probably gives townpoints to Riku, as I don't think scum!Riku would blatantly try to save a scumbuddy at his own risk. I know I wouldn't, and would probably try to bus instead. But I'm also a pretty poor Mafia player, so *shrug*.
I just can't make the timing make sense. It just...like...why? Why does scum stick their neck out to save a buddy who's only got two votes? Conversely, why does scum draw attention to themselves to townclear a townie who's nowhere near dying? The benefit of that scenario is to be able to say "I told you so" when HR flips town. But if HR isn't likely to be lynched, that can't happen. And there's no way they NK town!HR.
Quote from LnG »
I don't necessarily think we should play this for coins. It will mess up votecount examination later if have reasons to do so. (If more info comes out that would make this plan make more sense to me, I reserve the right to change my mind.)
The bolded is why I specified that we'd document the "real" wagon before sorting for coin distribution. I don't think coins should be of primary importance, but they're a tool that we can actually control, so, eh...I think it's worth the attempt.
@Vezok: Thoughts on my thoughts on Riku? Is your primary reason for EXTREME WHITE KNIGHTING Highroller because the players attacking him are bad and they should feel bad? To clarify, it sounds to me like you don't actually have any town vibes from HR beyond him defending against attacks that you see as bad. Am I mistaken?
@Cantrip: that post you made about me and you putting me in the will definitely vote for pile doesn’t mesh. Explain please.
Both you and Shadow fall into a category of "not acting as I would expect town!you to act". That you (specifically you, Rhand) also don't seem to be falling into how I would expect scum!Rhand to act doesn't mean that I'm not ok with lynching you. I feel like you're dodging my question, though. What do you think of me saying I'm conflicted on you?
Quote from Rhand »
Also, it’s GJ that convinced me to go look into tom’s meta. So yes, he did respond.
Hmm, ok on him getting you to re-evaluate your Tom read, but I still feel like your question was intended to figure GJout, not Tom. Just to be sure, that wasn't your intent?
@Cantrip: In truth, me not thinking you’re scum in like 3 posts probably means you’re town, but your play so far is just super bubbly and atypical. Also (as I mentioned above) your scum read of me just doesn’t sit well with me.
So....OMGUS? Like, "probably town, but he's suspicious of me, so more likely to be scum"? Haven't we had this conversation? Being wrong =/= scummy. That's why we look at motivation behind posts, question choices, question why elements are absent...speaking of which, answer my question, please: Why haven't you done anything to figure me out?
Please let me know if there are any errors in the VC.
Deadline is on Monday the 28th at 3 pm EST. As a forewarning that is a bad time for me and expect a significant amount of twilight. Votes after that time will not be counted.
@Cantrip, I understand you now. I am cool with that plan if we have time to pull it off. Re: the HR trilogy, I can't say it makes perfect sense, but Riku's explanation for trusting HR rings false to me. HR not commenting on the fishing thing until a reread feels false. Vezok's chainsawing feels false. I don't have any of them in caught-dead-to-rights behavior, but they tingle my Spider senses for various reasons.
The other benefit to strongly defending HR is to introduce WIFOM if one flips scum. ("There's no way scum!Riku/scum!Vezok would defend a scumbuddy so openly!")
There's also a possibility that someone between you, shadow and GJ is scum for the early jump on me, hut not feeling strong enough about that yet to probe without more info.
Actually that brings me to a bigger flaw I’m noticing in myself; I feel like I’m having trouble not OMGUSing in this game. And like, part of me says that it’s just me being bad at this game, but the other part of me knows that it can’t be all townies who just can’t read me.
I think I did a new discovery about myself this game: I work better when I’m not under any pressure. The certainty with which some players call me scum throws me off my game and puts me into omgus mode. I need to take a step back and look at the game with fresh eyes.
...do two scumbuddies make these posts within spitting distance of each other like this? Eh, Shadow, at least, is probably good enough to orchestrate this kind of "crazy coincidence", I think...especially if daytalk is a thing. Would scum!Rhand intentionally echo town!Shadow to strengthen apparent ties? So many questions. This is...bizarre.
@Cantrip, I understand you now. I am cool with that plan if we have time to pull it off. Re: the HR trilogy, I can't say it makes perfect sense, but Riku's explanation for trusting HR rings false to me. HR not commenting on the fishing thing until a reread feels false. Vezok's chainsawing feels false. I don't have any of them in caught-dead-to-rights behavior, but they tingle my Spider senses for various reasons.
I get where your suspicion is coming from. I don't agree on Riku; I don't see the concern with HR as significantly as you do, and I need more input on Vezok's chainsaw.
Quote from LnG »
The other benefit to strongly defending HR is to introduce WIFOM if one flips scum. ("There's no way scum!Riku/scum!Vezok would defend a scumbuddy so openly!")
So....OMGUS? Like, "probably town, but he's suspicious of me, so more likely to be scum"? Haven't we had this conversation? Being wrong =/= scummy. That's why we look at motivation behind posts, question choices, question why elements are absent...speaking of which, answer my question, please: Why haven't you done anything to figure me out?
This is a big problem I have with Shadow too. He doesn't understand why I'm seeing the game like I am, and I'm sliding down his reads list as he struggles with it even though he wants to town read me. But there's no real effort to figure me out or get into my head. He's asked questions, sure - but not followed up nor made any comment about how my answers have impacted things. It's like he's just paying lip service to the idea of generating a read so that he can scum read me because I'm scumreading him.
@Cantrip: I’m not attempting to do anything about you because I’ve been sorting other players, and I feel like I should just be able to figure you out. That’s why I’m annoyed that I’m not solid on you.
So....OMGUS? Like, "probably town, but he's suspicious of me, so more likely to be scum"? Haven't we had this conversation? Being wrong =/= scummy. That's why we look at motivation behind posts, question choices, question why elements are absent...speaking of which, answer my question, please: Why haven't you done anything to figure me out?
This is a big problem I have with Shadow too. He doesn't understand why I'm seeing the game like I am, and I'm sliding down his reads list as he struggles with it even though he wants to town read me. But there's no real effort to figure me out or get into my head. He's asked questions, sure - but not followed up nor made any comment about how my answers have impacted things. It's like he's just paying lip service to the idea of generating a read so that he can scum read me because I'm scumreading him.
Engaging you isn’t helping me at all. It’s why I keep asking for others to weigh in on their reads of you. And I have followed up, and your answers haven’t impacted things.
I’m solidly at “eco could be town because I don’t have any solid reasons not to think so”, but like, I don’t have any solid reasons to think you’re town either, and you’re scum reading several people that I don’t think are scum, and it means that either one of us is bad at this game, or you’re scum.
Once again I find myself in a situation in which I have no idea whether vezok is town or mafia, but I sincerely hope the former as he's the only one who's saying correct things.
I’ve got a few light associative influences based around highroller, probably nothing that would rock my world, but if he’s town I will absolutely be revisiting all the interactions around him.
And by "revisiting all interactions," you mean, "trying to convince the town not to lynch me."
But sure, go analyze all interactions, because anyone would trust your analysis after I flip town.
EBWODP: @Cantrip, look at Riku's explanation of his vote on Eco. How does that make sense from either a town or scum mindset?
It doesn't?
I guess...I could see it coming from town who sees something that he's not quite fully articulating (either by choice or by assumption that others see/will see what he sees)?
Or it could come from scum trying to...start a counterwagon to Vezok? On a player who's generally more town read than not? Scum wanting to no longer be on their RVS vote of Tom and...choosing that particular hill to die make no sense on? Scum not wanting to be on Vez or Shadow (and obviously not Highroller or Riku himself) and voting a buddy so as to be "on record"? Like...that last one is the option that makes the most sense among the scum!Riku paths, and why would scum make that kind of association? So I think maybe it only makes (far-fetched sense) coming from town?
The last option, I suppose, is that Riku just plays mafia differently, to the extent that no one really gets his choices, which seems to be the general consensus. In that case, it's sort of all up in the air as to trying to figure him out. But then I look at his "claim-to-save-HR/shut-down-that-conversation" and I just think it's more likely that he's town. I could be wrong, but I hope I'm right.
@Cantrip: I’m not attempting to do anything about you because I’ve been sorting other players, and I feel like I should just be able to figure you out. That’s why I’m annoyed that I’m not solid on you.
Eh............how are you going to fix this, then, eh?
I'm...pondering whether to post some observations now or Day 2. The drawback of waiting, of course, is the possibility that I get NK'd and never get to voice these thoughts. The benefit of waiting...is uncertain.
EWP: @Highroller: You literally have ZERO town reads strong enough that you don't want to lynch them toDay?
@Vezok: Thoughts on my thoughts on Riku? Is your primary reason for EXTREME WHITE KNIGHTING Highroller because the players attacking him are bad and they should feel bad? To clarify, it sounds to me like you don't actually have any town vibes from HR beyond him defending against attacks that you see as bad. Am I mistaken?
I get your thoughts on Riku, but I fear you are trying to use too much logic for a person like Riku. I'm not really sure I'm familiar with his scum meta, but I'm pretty sure nothing is outside his scumrange.
My progression today started with reading highroller as mildly town and continued with scumreading the people attacking highroller for independent reasons. Highroller then comes back and shows incredible conviction against the arguments presented against him. And frankly, he was right where I was in regards to them. So highroller shot up in my list, because I use mindmelding as a tool for finding townreads, for better or for worse.
Couple that with the fact that most of my scumreads were attacking highroller and those two events kinda fed off on each other and why highroller became really town.
@cantrip: Sell me on shadow scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
@Vezok, what do you think the odds are that the entire scum team pile onto one person on D1?
Pretty slim. I know I am wrong about some of my scumreads, but I believe I'm right about some. So it's not that I believe the scumteam is rhand/gj/cheese. It's more about one or two of them being scum and attacking highroller.
To put it another way. If two townreads and a scumread were attacking highroller, I wouldn't have reached the same conclusions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
@Cantrip: you seem to recognise my town meta and yet you still want me lynched. It all makes no sense to me. I get that you’re conflicted. Heck, my read on you is the same. But the difference is that for me that’s a reason not to want you lynched toDay while you do want me lynched. And reading your post, I think I’m leaning scum on you harder than you are on me. It’s all very weird.
What is also weird is Eco continuing to put me in his scumpile only by association, but showing willingness to vote me.
@Eco: Imagine I get lynched. Would my townflip change your idea about Shadow at all?
About GJ: I was surprised he didn’t have tom in his poe at all while I was scumreading tom and wanted to know why. That had nothing to do with GJ’s alignment.
@Everyone on vez: what is your willingness to move over to highroller instead? We’re at the point where if I move to vez it will prompt a claim, and I don’t want to do that if we have support for highroller instead.
@Everyone on vez: what is your willingness to move over to highroller instead? We’re at the point where if I move to vez it will prompt a claim, and I don’t want to do that if we have support for highroller instead.
Would do it to avoid no lunch, but would rather take Vez, or Cheesecake.
@Everyone on vez: what is your willingness to move over to highroller instead? We’re at the point where if I move to vez it will prompt a claim, and I don’t want to do that if we have support for highroller instead.
Would do it to avoid no lunch, but would rather take Vez, or Cheesecake.
@Everyone on vez: what is your willingness to move over to highroller instead? We’re at the point where if I move to vez it will prompt a claim, and I don’t want to do that if we have support for highroller instead.
Would do it to avoid no lunch, but would rather take Vez, or Cheesecake.
Same (but not cheesecake)
You made a pretty early naked town read, if I remember correctly. Do you think his posting as of recent still feels as townie as it did early day 1?
Can you explain your Eco case? or is it one of those, "Guys just trust me" things?
@Rhand, town can be wrong. I don't see why you would change your reads too much based off other players opinions, especially D1.
@all, we should probably consolidate wagons here. Having a bunch of 2 vote wagons isn't bad now, but will suck as we go later into the Day. I don't want to be running around like decapitated chickens to avoid a no lynch and give scum an easy reason to excuse their vote.
Personally, lynches I would be willing to vote are Riku, Highroller, Rhand, and Vezok. I would prefer to leave Shadow, Cheesecake, and GJ for another Day. Would not vote Cantrip, Tom, Eco or Vaimes.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Cantrip is on the backburner now, I don’t trust him yet.
You’re one of my townreads. Look at what you just wrote. There’s no point digging into my Cantrip read now when y’all are not interested in him anyways.
I do think specifically consolidating wagons this early is unecessary, but see who would be willing to vote where isn’t a bad call. Currently I’d lynch highroller and possibly vez. If Ruma actually continues to make real posts I’d hold off, but if he disappears back into the ether then I’d lynch him.
Thanks.
Gonna have to agree to disagree, then, because I feel like it makes no sense as scum. I guess...if I squint I could see it being scum-scum, less "buddy-saving" and more "scum theatre", but I don't feel like that's likely. I just don't see scum!HCR (Hermit Crab Riku) (or any experienced scum, really, but especially not a hermit crab) coming out of his hidey hole, locking himself into even a soft claim, and white knighting a player who isn't anywhere close to being lynched. Even if Riku thought an HR lynch was likely, why choose NOW to "save" him? And I just don't believe that, if HR is town, scum aren't LOVING the noise he's making. Yeah, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. And the policy lynch support just feels like more town frustration. Like "ok, you guys won't accept my clear logic? Then let's eliminate the frustration another way."
Hmm...ok, I could see that. So here's why I feel conflicted about my scum read on you. My reasoning for thinking you scum is somewhat nebulous. You're attacking my town game, so there's a little bit of OMGUS there, but I'm mostly leery because I don't see you re-evaluating or assessing much. And now that you say you're starting to doubt your read on me, it's not because of anything I've said, but because others think I'm town (and your 703 confirms you still think I'm scum; just not worth pursuing at this point). So you're still not really re-assessing; you're just not pursuing me as avidly. This feels like scum who made it their personal mission to get me mislynched.
The conflict comes from what I feel I know of you/your meta. I don't think you're the kind of scum who a) sets out to get specific people mislynched, or b) decides to go after ME, in particular. If you're scum, you know it's going to be a slogging uphill battle the whole way, with lots of textwalls that you'll have to at least read, even if you don't actually respond to them. Not that you'd shirk from the challenge, but there'd just be...easier ways to deal with me. I'm not that good as town that I actually think scum fear town!me, so I don't think you'd set out to head me off at the pass out of fear that I'd suss you out (although the irony if you did exactly that and I'm now figuring you out because of it would be delicious). I actually thought that your initial attack on me was towny because of the conviction, but...no re-assessing, despite the posts I've made.
So...I'm conflicted. Please post more. In fact, let's start with your question to GJ in 422. What made you ask that question? What did you expect to learn? Etc.
FTFY. Like, normally I'd be like "hmm, Shadow's playing things a little close to the vest, maybe power role", but then you claimed VT, so that's not it.
@Shadow: You haven't commented on my alignment for the last 450-ish posts of the game, when you mentioned that you didn't think I was scum. What percentage are you at for me being town/scum? Actually, could I get a general reads list from you? Reasons would be lovely, but at minimum a general Town-to-Scum?
That said preferred lynch pool is rhand>>>vez>>highroller>[huge gap]>ruma/shadow/whatever
Rhand still 90% scum the progression on me is just never real seriously read his iso looking for me. Nothing original at all, always just the easiest stance that someone has already posited. And his return is entirely based on conforming he doesnt care about his opinions at all and apparently spent his time metaing me despite having played with me a dozen times and me being demonstrably unlynchable.
(Really, I find his levels of early game conviction to be completely artificial.)
I’m team #VigHighroller.
I have a N0 innocent check on tom. Best late Christmas present ever.
This was the first reaction I had to it, but on reflection, I just don't think that scum Riku would bother tying himself to a soft claim in order to try to stop an incredibly easy lynch from happening, only to immediately jepordise any town points gained by being open to the policy lynch. You could say he was trying to have his cake as well as eat it by getting HR lynched and also reading him as town, but that's just a pointless risk to take.
Could you explain your thoughts behind Rhand there?
++++++++
My lynch list is like Shadow>Rhand?>GJ>>>>>Highroller>>>>>other people. It's not very impressive, so I think I need to try and take stock of things here. In particular, a lot of my world view is revolving around my Shadow scum read, and I've got quite a few associative/dissacociate reads resulting from it. So I think my first step is to check my premise and try to get more of an objective read on Shadow, and then try to set aside associations and look at people like Rhand, Tom, and Cantrip more independently. I can't promise when it will happen, but hopefully soon.
That's a pretty sweet thing to get sniped by.
Rhand hasn't struck me as particularly towny, and I'm willing to sheep Tom somewhat. He has posts, but none of them feel weighty. Lack of effort-ish, maybe? I don't want to say that like Rhand doesn't care, but I just haven't seen anything that strikes me strongly either way, which is somewhat weird. The only reason Vezok is up on is because Vezok noted the Cheesecake attack on Tom the same way I did. That felt towny to me.
@Vaimes, while I think that's like... 99% BS, I think you and he are both town anyways so *shrug* I'll assume it's to get people off Tom's case and onto a more viable lynch.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
GJ
Cheesecake
Rhand
Ruma
Lingerer
Tom
Vaimes
Cantrip
Eco
Vez
Highroller
::::::::::::::::::::::
I feel like a Vaimes style of player right now. I feel good about my town reads, mixed but pretty good about highroller, and then meh otherwise. The line between more positive feelings and shrug feelings is between Vaimes and Cantrip.
I really would like more people to flesh out their eco read, because I want to believe he’s town, I just am not convinced. I’m also pretty sure Rhand is town, but I’ll concede that that read is based off of mind meld (I don’t think he faked it though). I absolutely wouldn’t stand for his lynch though.
I’ve got a few light associative influences based around highroller, probably nothing that would rock my world, but if he’s town I will absolutely be revisiting all the interactions around him.
That was me asking a townread to weigh in on my scumread.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Actually that brings me to a bigger flaw I’m noticing in myself; I feel like I’m having trouble not OMGUSing in this game. And like, part of me says that it’s just me being bad at this game, but the other part of me knows that it can’t be all townies who just can’t read me.
@Shadow: Do you still support a policy lynch of Ruma? What took me from "don't think he's scum" back in 263 to maybe just outside the scumteam? I know I had a good sized activity gap in there, but you seriously don't have ANY takes/reactions/questions/responses on/to/for/to me since 263.
Whup, and I got ninja'd again. Admitting my own potential confbias/tunnel here, but you having a hard time reading me makes me feel that it's more likely that you're scum. Because you've proven that you can read me. Like...I had pretty much given up on playing scum against you because you'd just lolvote me and go on to win the game. So you saying that I'm a mystery is a big warning light. Why nothing for the last 450 posts to try to figure me out if you're having a hard time? Why nothing now?
As for your question, I don't know that I can think of a game that I played with you as VT. Has there been one?
@Tom: What happened to change your opinion between 571 and 706 where Shadow moved from "Scum acting like scum" to "above the huge gap, above Rhand, Vez, and HR"?
@Rhand: AFAICT, he never responded. Obv you're not going to follow up on questions to your town reads as avidly as those to your scum reads, but...that doesn't sound like you're asking him to weigh in on Tom. It sounds like you're pointedly questioning what you see as a gap in GJ's reads. Not the case? Also, no thoughts on my take on you?
Apart from a reads list, could you give a "Would definitely lynch/maybe lynch/definitely not lynch" list? If it matches your reads list (say, scum/null/town) that's fine, just say so. (And if you would like to put the post number of your reads list, that would be super peachy keen.)
We have about 4 days left, and that time will go quick. We should determine two or three candidates and then hear arguments for/against those individuals.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Will Not Vote For
LnGrrrR
Riku
Ecophagy
Reluctant to Vote For
tomsloger
Vaimes
Would Vote For to Prevent No Lynch
Highroller
SleepyCheesecake
vezokpiraka
Gentleman Johnny
Would Certainly Vote For
Rhand
Shadowlancerx
@LnG: Do you still feel like scum!Riku posts #652? What are the primary reasons behind your willingness to lynch HR? Same with Vezok?
I'd also like to request that we not just agree on a lynch and go for it, due to the Bounty mechanic. I know it's probably going to be hard to coordinate, but I think it would be ideal if we go to a point where we had a player a L-2 and had two players off the wagon express desire to vote (confirming the intent to lynch, as well as the "real" lynch wagon, which we'd document), and then decide who gets to be on the wagon to get coins. In case coordination turns out to be too difficult, I'll note that I would likely be willing to give up my space on the lynch wagon (if I'm on it when the time comes) for a player whom I'm strongly townreading to get the coin in my place, at least for toDay's wagon.
I don't necessarily think we should play this for coins. It will mess up votecount examination later if have reasons to do so. (If more info comes out that would make this plan make more sense to me, I reserve the right to change my mind.)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Wouldn't be opposed to the lynch of lrrgr.
Will defend until their death: highroller
Wouldn't lynch today at all: tom and cantrip.
Others I'd vote to prevent a no lynch.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Also, it’s GJ that convinced me to go look into tom’s meta. So yes, he did respond.
@Lngr: I think Vezok and Highroller both are good lynches. Apart from that I’m unsure. Cantrip / Eco bug me most I guess. I think I did a new discovery about myself this game: I work better when I’m not under any pressure. The certainty with which some players call me scum throws me off my game and puts me into omgus mode. I need to take a step back and look at the game with fresh eyes.
Seriously we don't even get those on mtgs. Can maybe forgive it for not knowing context on that but come on
The bolded is why I specified that we'd document the "real" wagon before sorting for coin distribution. I don't think coins should be of primary importance, but they're a tool that we can actually control, so, eh...I think it's worth the attempt.
@Vezok: Thoughts on my thoughts on Riku? Is your primary reason for EXTREME WHITE KNIGHTING Highroller because the players attacking him are bad and they should feel bad? To clarify, it sounds to me like you don't actually have any town vibes from HR beyond him defending against attacks that you see as bad. Am I mistaken?
Both you and Shadow fall into a category of "not acting as I would expect town!you to act". That you (specifically you, Rhand) also don't seem to be falling into how I would expect scum!Rhand to act doesn't mean that I'm not ok with lynching you. I feel like you're dodging my question, though. What do you think of me saying I'm conflicted on you?
Hmm, ok on him getting you to re-evaluate your Tom read, but I still feel like your question was intended to figure GJout, not Tom. Just to be sure, that wasn't your intent?
So....OMGUS? Like, "probably town, but he's suspicious of me, so more likely to be scum"? Haven't we had this conversation? Being wrong =/= scummy. That's why we look at motivation behind posts, question choices, question why elements are absent...speaking of which, answer my question, please: Why haven't you done anything to figure me out?
Apologies for lack of flavor. I had not prepared enough. Flavor will resume soon.
Shadowlancerx (2): Ecophagy, Cantripmancer
Highroller (1): Shadowlancerx
Vez (4): Gentleman Johnny, tomsloger, Vaimes, Rhand
Rumanshi (2): LnGrrrR, Sleepycheesecake
LnGrrrR (1): Highroller
SleepyCheesecake (1): Vez
Ecophagy (1): Rumanshi
Not voting (0):
Please let me know if there are any errors in the VC.
Deadline is on Monday the 28th at 3 pm EST. As a forewarning that is a bad time for me and expect a significant amount of twilight. Votes after that time will not be counted.
The other benefit to strongly defending HR is to introduce WIFOM if one flips scum. ("There's no way scum!Riku/scum!Vezok would defend a scumbuddy so openly!")
There's also a possibility that someone between you, shadow and GJ is scum for the early jump on me, hut not feeling strong enough about that yet to probe without more info.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Ok...but again...the timing?
What are you liking about Shadow?
This is a big problem I have with Shadow too. He doesn't understand why I'm seeing the game like I am, and I'm sliding down his reads list as he struggles with it even though he wants to town read me. But there's no real effort to figure me out or get into my head. He's asked questions, sure - but not followed up nor made any comment about how my answers have impacted things. It's like he's just paying lip service to the idea of generating a read so that he can scum read me because I'm scumreading him.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I’m solidly at “eco could be town because I don’t have any solid reasons not to think so”, but like, I don’t have any solid reasons to think you’re town either, and you’re scum reading several people that I don’t think are scum, and it means that either one of us is bad at this game, or you’re scum.
Glad this associative is at least picking up. Disappointed no one else is calling out shadowlancerx on it.
And by "revisiting all interactions," you mean, "trying to convince the town not to lynch me."
But sure, go analyze all interactions, because anyone would trust your analysis after I flip town.
Anyone else have difficulty believing this?
Good, I'm not the only one.
Mine's pretty obvious.
Would lynch: shadowlancerx, SleepyCheesecake, GJ, LnGrrrR
We should seriously look into, but probably not lynch today: Vaimes
Would lynch to prevent no lynch: Anyone else.
I guess...I could see it coming from town who sees something that he's not quite fully articulating (either by choice or by assumption that others see/will see what he sees)?
Or it could come from scum trying to...start a counterwagon to Vezok? On a player who's generally more town read than not? Scum wanting to no longer be on their RVS vote of Tom and...choosing that particular hill to
diemake no sense on? Scum not wanting to be on Vez or Shadow (and obviously not Highroller or Riku himself) and voting a buddy so as to be "on record"? Like...that last one is the option that makes the most sense among the scum!Riku paths, and why would scum make that kind of association? So I think maybe it only makes (far-fetched sense) coming from town?The last option, I suppose, is that Riku just plays mafia differently, to the extent that no one really gets his choices, which seems to be the general consensus. In that case, it's sort of all up in the air as to trying to figure him out. But then I look at his "claim-to-save-HR/shut-down-that-conversation" and I just think it's more likely that he's town. I could be wrong, but I hope I'm right.
Eh............how are you going to fix this, then, eh?
I'm...pondering whether to post some observations now or Day 2. The drawback of waiting, of course, is the possibility that I get NK'd and never get to voice these thoughts. The benefit of waiting...is uncertain.
EWP: @Highroller: You literally have ZERO town reads strong enough that you don't want to lynch them toDay?
@Cantrip: Probably wait til tomorrow and use some flips and spend some time reading back over you.
I get your thoughts on Riku, but I fear you are trying to use too much logic for a person like Riku. I'm not really sure I'm familiar with his scum meta, but I'm pretty sure nothing is outside his scumrange.
My progression today started with reading highroller as mildly town and continued with scumreading the people attacking highroller for independent reasons. Highroller then comes back and shows incredible conviction against the arguments presented against him. And frankly, he was right where I was in regards to them. So highroller shot up in my list, because I use mindmelding as a tool for finding townreads, for better or for worse.
Couple that with the fact that most of my scumreads were attacking highroller and those two events kinda fed off on each other and why highroller became really town.
@cantrip: Sell me on shadow scum.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Pretty slim. I know I am wrong about some of my scumreads, but I believe I'm right about some. So it's not that I believe the scumteam is rhand/gj/cheese. It's more about one or two of them being scum and attacking highroller.
To put it another way. If two townreads and a scumread were attacking highroller, I wouldn't have reached the same conclusions.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
What is also weird is Eco continuing to put me in his scumpile only by association, but showing willingness to vote me.
@Eco: Imagine I get lynched. Would my townflip change your idea about Shadow at all?
About GJ: I was surprised he didn’t have tom in his poe at all while I was scumreading tom and wanted to know why. That had nothing to do with GJ’s alignment.
Would do it to avoid no lunch, but would rather take Vez, or Cheesecake.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Same (but not cheesecake)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You made a pretty early naked town read, if I remember correctly. Do you think his posting as of recent still feels as townie as it did early day 1?
The GJ way path to no lynching: