>Cantrip v. the worst - the worst comes off way worse. think cantrip's reply in #359 is the main influence here.
interesting, I agree 359 is the first time he's smelled like town tbh
any particular reason you're reading this as t/s?
To be honest, I don't remember anything else except for that post. I just read it as you were fluffing a read. I will read you both again, some time, hopefully before we hammer someone. It could also be a unconscious thing where I find Cantrip more logical-sounding than you, but that isn't AI.
@RE and GJ: What do each of you think of The Worst's #380?
It doesn't strike me as significant in terms of alignment, because it's a fairly effortless read. But I think it's a pro-town move, as if Mikey is a mislynch being pushed by wolves, it makes it tougher on them.
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Vezok if you're town please stop saying cringey stuff
let's find scum instead! ^~^
is that a vanillaize shot? why do you insist it can't co-exist with Mikey's role?
I found scum already in mikey slot.
It's not a vanilla shot. It transforms a role into it's normal version for the night. You tell me what a normal version of Neighboutizer is.
Dude... Neighborizer is a confirmable role. It'd be one thing if you felt your role couldn't coexist on the same alignment as someone with neighborizer. This is another thing entirely. And I'd argue because this is role madness, there really isn't a role that should counter neighborizer.
Can you clarify what "normal" means? Could you give an example of a role that isn't normal, and then say what the normal version of that role would be?
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Also for the sake of, you know, trying to not lynch a town PR I think the wagon on Mikey should probably just dissipate by principle. It's self resolving unless exactly his partners claim to be neighborized, which I guess is likely, but it'd be pretttttttttty sus if 3 kinda scummy people all claimed to be clear.
This is a role madness game and neighborizer isn't exclusively a town role, as previous conversation covered. I don't really understand this thought?
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How does my response unnerve you? You put reasoning in every other decision than me and then proceeded to vote.
Your vote on Mikey carries much weight despite you lacking presence in the thread. While you provided reasoning, it's not backed up by the same amount of explanation, or depth, or interactions with Mikey as the other players voting him. It comes off as scum cementing a lynch.
And this is where I disagree with vez. I don't think you are lock scum if Mikey is scum. I just think the way you wrote that post comes off as ingenuine.
Keeping my presence is a thing I noticed I'm struggling with. Bear with me, it's a new format for me and I'm just trying my best to be useful. I realize that it's an area I need to get better in and I'll try to strengthen that suit of my gameplay.
I'd like to say that I'm still leaning GJ as scum, as the things Mikey kept on saying filled me with distrust. Pitching a tantrum at the end doesn't look good either, whatever happened in the game and people already had solid reasons to vote him.
Tom's very hard to read for me. The caps throw me off heavily, but I'm certain that he's more town than scum.
Re strikes me as towny too, their reasonings being pretty justifiable and from a meta example, they're slow to vote, so I've a pretty strong towny leaning on them.
Vezok seems to just be jumping wagons, trying to get an easy lynch in. I'd like to say that I'm moving more towards scum with them.
The rest is more neutral than I'd like.
How does my response unnerve you? You put reasoning in every other decision than me and then proceeded to vote.
Your vote on Mikey carries much weight despite you lacking presence in the thread. While you provided reasoning, it's not backed up by the same amount of explanation, or depth, or interactions with Mikey as the other players voting him. It comes off as scum cementing a lynch.
And this is where I disagree with vez. I don't think you are lock scum if Mikey is scum. I just think the way you wrote that post comes off as ingenuine.
Keeping my presence is a thing I noticed I'm struggling with. Bear with me, it's a new format for me and I'm just trying my best to be useful. I realize that it's an area I need to get better in and I'll try to strengthen that suit of my gameplay.
I'd like to say that I'm still leaning GJ as scum, as the things Mikey kept on saying filled me with distrust. Pitching a tantrum at the end doesn't look good either, whatever happened in the game and people already had solid reasons to vote him.
Tom's very hard to read for me. The caps throw me off heavily, but I'm certain that he's more town than scum.
Re strikes me as towny too, their reasonings being pretty justifiable and from a meta example, they're slow to vote, so I've a pretty strong towny leaning on them.
Vezok seems to just be jumping wagons, trying to get an easy lynch in. I'd like to say that I'm moving more towards scum with them.
The rest is more neutral than I'd like.
I am jumping wagons by literally not moving my vote since RVS. I voted a single person this entire game.
You can't even claim I tried to push other wagons as the only other person I've expressed suspicion about is you.
Regarding the normalize ability. I have no idea what a normal version of a role means. It's not explained, but it heavily implies that all roles in this game are not normal.
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Regarding the normalize ability. I have no idea what a normal version of a role means. It's not explained, but it heavily implies that all roles in this game are not normal.
I can 100% confirm this false. My role is normal and very simple.
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Keeping my presence is a thing I noticed I'm struggling with. Bear with me, it's a new format for me and I'm just trying my best to be useful. I realize that it's an area I need to get better in and I'll try to strengthen that suit of my gameplay.
It's not your thread presence alone.
Re strikes me as towny too, their reasonings being pretty justifiable and from a meta example, they're slow to vote, so I've a pretty strong towny leaning on them.
Meta example? Slow to vote?
@the worst
I forgot to say. I don't really have certain feelings about you and Cantrip, only that in that interaction, you came off looking worse. It could easily be T/T.
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Vezok if you're town please stop saying cringey stuff
let's find scum instead! ^~^
is that a vanillaize shot? why do you insist it can't co-exist with Mikey's role?
I found scum already in mikey slot.
It's not a vanilla shot. It transforms a role into it's normal version for the night. You tell me what a normal version of Neighboutizer is.
Sorry, I don't understand what a "normal version" is. I don't think Osie would give such an easily exposed role to scum that the literal wording of your role PM spews them as scum. I understand if your role is a vanilla-iser (removes all powers and makes them VT) but I'm struggling with working out what a normal version of anything is meant to be.
unless it removes modifiers.....?
like I can't imagine a normal version of my role either, and I don't have any modifiers unless I'm compulsive which I'll check now.
>Cantrip v. the worst - the worst comes off way worse. think cantrip's reply in #359 is the main influence here.
interesting, I agree 359 is the first time he's smelled like town tbh
any particular reason you're reading this as t/s?
To be honest, I don't remember anything else except for that post. I just read it as you were fluffing a read. I will read you both again, some time, hopefully before we hammer someone. It could also be a unconscious thing where I find Cantrip more logical-sounding than you, but that isn't AI.
@RE and GJ: What do each of you think of The Worst's #380?
It doesn't strike me as significant in terms of alignment, because it's a fairly effortless read. But I think it's a pro-town move, as if Mikey is a mislynch being pushed by wolves, it makes it tougher on them.
I like this post : ]
tbh I tend to scumread logical players more quickly because I'm kinda logically messy and just follow my gut thru most situations. I did exaggerate my Cantrip SR a little, it was ~nullscumish at its worst but it was alarming me how little tonality his earlier posts had and how they seemed to kinda coexist with the gamestate rather than showing any like... true thoughts and trajectory and *****
Keeping my presence is a thing I noticed I'm struggling with. Bear with me, it's a new format for me and I'm just trying my best to be useful. I realize that it's an area I need to get better in and I'll try to strengthen that suit of my gameplay.
It's not your thread presence alone.
Re strikes me as towny too, their reasonings being pretty justifiable and from a meta example, they're slow to vote, so I've a pretty strong towny leaning on them.
Meta example? Slow to vote?
The quick games yesterday. Meta meaning out of thread in this case. Maybe I worded it weirdly, but your votes were slower when you were town.
Keeping my presence is a thing I noticed I'm struggling with. Bear with me, it's a new format for me and I'm just trying my best to be useful. I realize that it's an area I need to get better in and I'll try to strengthen that suit of my gameplay.
It's not your thread presence alone.
Re strikes me as towny too, their reasonings being pretty justifiable and from a meta example, they're slow to vote, so I've a pretty strong towny leaning on them.
Meta example? Slow to vote?
The quick games yesterday. Meta meaning out of thread in this case. Maybe I worded it weirdly, but your votes were slower when you were town.
Quick games are often pretty hard to meta read off. mindset is much different when you can take a bit of time to post hahaha
How strongly do you feel about this read? any non meta reasons to back it up?
It's a scumtell because you seem unaware of how Mikey is being perceived by the majority of the thread (suggesting a bias that comes with insider knowledge). I would not describe his reads as "sufficient," and considering some of his unexplained reads included a scumread of you (which from your perspective, should be automatically wrong), I would be more doubtful of his alignment. It's why I took issue with his Manasi read, because I did not see what he saw.
I feel like you have a disconnect here between how my not acknowledging the read and my being unaware of how Mikey is being perceived are related. I've acknowledged his claim and explained why that is not enough to cause people to reconsider, which implicitly acknowledges that he is looked upon unfavorably by a large portion of the town.
Here is where I made assumptions. If someone makes a read that I agree with and they don't explain, I might not take issue with it. If someone makes a read I don't understand and they didn't provide reasoning for it, I would ask them to explain to see if they're justified in it. I'm going to assume that you wouldn't understand why Mikey called you scummy, because from your perspective, you should be town. He also didn't explain why, so how is that read sufficient, from your pov? But if being called scummy without reason is something you don't question at this stage of the game, then I have no idea.
I feel like I asked him to explain his reads sufficiently. Again, my definition of "sufficient" is based off of interactions with him in other games, and not what I would feel comfortable putting my name behind. Context here is key. I assume you disagree?
If I sound condescending, it's not my intention, so I apologize. *snip* That's what I'm asking you to cite, because in my experience, it is irrelevant to their alignment and more reflective of their style.
Apology accepted. It could be more of a stylistic issue, and I'd love to cite this information for you, but I think you and I can both acknowledge that it'd be a herculean amount of effort to go back and cite a sufficient number of games for multiple individuals to call this substantial. Agree to disagree.
What you call a "horrible assumption" is, I don't know your alignment. For me to assume you gave me the benefit of the doubt I would first need to be aware that you are town and are approaching me without knowing my alignment. Otherwise, if you are scum, then you definitely did not consider both possibilities of my alignment.
What I was referring to by horrible assumption was a couple of fallacies (deliberate ignorance and an implied No True Scotsman with the "Are you the kind of player who lynches others over differing mafia ideologies?" bit) I've noted in your last couple of replies, which added to the condescension. That, combined with you saying I was misrepresenting your position. I'd go further into mafia theory here, but I think that'd be minorly productive at best (although we can continue if you'd like) and we need to curtail this discussion.
Also @RE I think there are decent odds that Mikey doesn't know that neighborizer is a role that can be regularly seen as both alignments. And flavor should almost never be alignment indicative, unless you are given mechanical reason to know so (as Cantrip said).
@KA Ready to discuss your Mikey read, pre-GJ? I'll take post-GJ too if you're up to it.
@Tom re: 372 If you're gonna lynch both of them, why move to the one that's more work (further from L-0)?
@GJ Hi, glad you're here. What makes you think the lack of resistance signifies that the wagon should be town? We didn't exactly have any direction prior to this.
@Vezok I'm not sure the overlap/mutual exclusivity between your role and Mikey's. To avoid parroting the same "what's normal" question, what made you want to soft-CC after Tom had already done so? And did the nature of your role's randomness not contribute to your analysis of the differences of your two roles?
@OsieMod You have Mikey still listed in the opening post
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I really like The Worst's posts on page 8. I see where RE is coming from on the point regarding Cantrip's response in 359 (the skepticism makes sense given that it doesn't really make sense from either alignment), but The Worst's posts feel very unfiltered and forthcoming with reads/information as he comes to a given conclusion. 395 also succinctly knocks it out of the park.
I know I'm late to the party here, Killma on 360 reads like a huge fencesit. +town Vez/RE (although I don't think this is a strong enough point of interaction to tie Vez/Killma together). I guess this could be preemptive shade on Killma by Vez, and that is in scum!Vez's wheelhouse, but that's not my interpretation at this point.
One of the weaknesses with my style of play is these deadline early-Day situations. I'm too busy trying to lump people into a townpile and don't have concrete ideas of who I think is scum yet. I think that we might've been seeing a townie that was incredibly frustrated in Mikey, but I don't think the other leading suspects are worth considering at this point. Gun to head, I'd go with Killma, but I have very low confidence there.
Something along these lines (it's not much to go off of):
Dan
Cantrip
RE
Worst
RR (I think they are being productive enough)
Kpaca, Manasi need more data Tom need more time
Vez, Killma, GJ, KA (in particular KA has made no real impression on me)
---
Anyhoo,
I once met RE1031. I'm going to select the first option. You should win.
@dan: My ability obviously made me question the validity of such a simple claim as mikey's, but it wasn't a deciding factor. I don't mod game stuff like this. My nornalize ability is the thing that doesn't really mesh with mikey's role.
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@dan: My ability obviously made me question the validity of such a simple claim as mikey's, but it wasn't a deciding factor. I don't mod game stuff like this. My nornalize ability is the thing that doesn't really mesh with mikey's role.
But again, his power doesn't make sense to claim. It can't be roleblocked and is very provable. It's going to be obvious mikey/me aren't lying about it, and again, you really think your ability would be a lock clear just because of it?
**** it, I think Vezok's town. I think the derp is too stronk
I feel like you have a disconnect here between how my not acknowledging the read and my being unaware of how Mikey is being perceived are related. I've acknowledged his claim and explained why that is not enough to cause people to reconsider, which implicitly acknowledges that he is looked upon unfavorably by a large portion of the town.
Mikey's claim came after you called his reads sufficient, so this is invalid.
I feel like I asked him to explain his reads sufficiently. Again, my definition of "sufficient" is based off of interactions with him in other games, and not what I would feel comfortable putting my name behind. Context here is key. I assume you disagree?
Oh! That's what you meant. By "previous posts", I thought you meant posts prior to #168. I didn't see a drastic change. But if you meant posts in past games, that makes sense ^^)/
It could be more of a stylistic issue, and I'd love to cite this information for you, but I think you and I can both acknowledge that it'd be a herculean amount of effort to go back and cite a sufficient number of games for multiple individuals to call this substantial. Agree to disagree.
Maybe it'll help by saying I play on MU frequently, which is where I picked it up ^^
What I was referring to by horrible assumption was a couple of fallacies (deliberate ignorance and an implied No True Scotsman with the "Are you the kind of player who lynches others over differing mafia ideologies?" bit) I've noted in your last couple of replies, which added to the condescension. That, combined with you saying I was misrepresenting your position. I'd go further into mafia theory here, but I think that'd be minorly productive at best (although we can continue if you'd like) and we need to curtail this discussion.
That wasn't an assumption. That was an accusation. That was what you were doing with me. And I will continue to leave naked votes because they are fun and interesting and lead to chaos and it's wonderful. I'll say I went overboard with asking if that's something you do all the time, but no, that wasn't an assumption. I was literally commenting on your initial read of on me.
My frustration with you is you seem to have to make things up to defend your actions. You're bull*****ting it. When you explain your thoughts, you sometimes rely on things that did not even happen yet (Mikey's claim, for example) or you straight up lie about what I did ("pushed repeatedly before you provided motivation for the vote.") And then you have the nerve to play the victim! Dude, your whole mindset behind calling my style lazy is condescending. Your first vote and reasoning on me was condescending. You assumed that I wasn't taking advantage of the reactions I get from my vote, but... These things take time. These things aren't perfect. Why would you assume that I'm not factoring it in with the whole of my reads? Like, how would you factor in, "Oh?" as a reaction? Really? So don't you dare pretend this isn't something you aren't guilty of either. In fact, you remind me of my mother. Or Grapefruit......
The quick games yesterday. Meta meaning out of thread in this case. Maybe I worded it weirdly, but your votes were slower when you were town.
Yeah, like the worst said, live isn't a really good reflection of how I play normally. I don't take live seriously and RVSing in live is really uncomfortable for me.
@Tom
Do you think scum!vez comes in, sheds light on his role, and offers it as evidence that Mikey's claim is fake? Depending on Mikey's alignment, does the answer change?
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@GJ Hi, glad you're here. What makes you think the lack of resistance signifies that the wagon should be town? We didn't exactly have any direction prior to this.
Lack of resistance means either the wolves don't care, or they are asleep at the wheel, especially considering how few posts have been made.
I don't want to comment on that at this point. I'm also not super interested in lynching Kpaca at this point, unless it's the only thing that would prevent a NL. If town, he's going to be an asset if his activity rises. Big ifs, granted.
lol@ the GF reference, though.
Was I supposed to actively state "hey, Mikey's got votes/pressure on him?" I'm not sure how else to actively state awareness, given that I didn't intend to acknowledge the read on me.
Yeah, I can see how my posting came across condescending as well. It was an attempt to be witty. But I'd factor in "Oh?" as either curiosity or doubt, and try to hash out WHY the individual felt that way.
@Vez Aren't you inherently modgaming by questioning the setup?
I don't want to comment on that at this point. I'm also not super interested in lynching Kpaca at this point, unless it's the only thing that would prevent a NL. If town, he's going to be an asset if his activity rises. Big ifs, granted.
lol@ the GF reference, though.
Was I supposed to actively state "hey, Mikey's got votes/pressure on him?" I'm not sure how else to actively state awareness, given that I didn't intend to acknowledge the read on me.
Yeah, I can see how my posting came across condescending as well. It was an attempt to be witty. But I'd factor in "Oh?" as either curiosity or doubt, and try to hash out WHY the individual felt that way.
@Vez Aren't you inherently modgaming by questioning the setup?
My experience with townkpaca is that he is just as likely to shove a townie than a wolf.
I don't know who else I want to lynch though. Vezok not so much, not even for his claim, but his naivete.
Manasi said she will step up. I'll give her a day to change my mind.
Vote Killer
I didn't like his response to VEzok's post. This line in particular:
Vezok seems to just be jumping wagons, trying to get an easy lynch in. I'd like to say that I'm moving more towards scum with them.
Was I supposed to actively state "hey, Mikey's got votes/pressure on him?" I'm not sure how else to actively state awareness, given that I didn't intend to acknowledge the read on me.
It's not necessarily that. It's like, from a wolf's point of view, scummy villagers might just look like villagers. When you called his reads sufficient (prior to me realizing you were referencing Mikey's old games rather than his older posts in this game), it felt oddly disconnected. Like you were whiteknighting him, but not intentionally. Like the disagreement there didn't just come from you being a different player, but from having insider knowledge.
I don't think any of this is valid currently, though.
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@The Worst: So I asked about your 380 because it felt really wishy-washy to me. You start with a confident hot take, reinforce it with "you heard it here first", then turn around and say it's a gut read, could be wrong, and you weakly feel out everyone else to see if you can get an amen. It didn't strike me that oddly the first time through, but when I reread it during a review, it just seems totally contradictory to the tone of most the rest of your posts (which, in general, feel very confident and/or without concern for others' opinions). Why so cautious here?
@RE: I asked you to chime in on that because you're my top town read and I wanted to see if you picked up on the tone. That you didn't makes me wonder if it's not that big a deal.
@GJ: I asked you because it almost felt like 380 was scum!Worst floating a derpclear on his buddy Mikey/GJ slot, but not wanting to commit to it. I figured your response could demolish or strengthen that theory. You chose to...literally explain what The Worst was saying to me as though I were in grade school? Really? Why no evaluation of The Worst himself? (I mean, no, I didn't explicitly say "what do you think #380 says *about* The Worst", but I feel like in general when you ask a player about a post, you're asking for reads, not interpretation...)
The Worst: I don't like that you jumped in right after GJ's response to /barn it, especially without waiting for RE's response. Why did you feel like you needed to do that?
@Manasi: Why do you acknowledge that GJ is in the game in 396 and then go crazy about him being in the game in 398? I also don't understand what you're trying to say about Mikey/GJ's ability in 397; can you elaborate? Are you saying that he'll have to prove that he has the ability unless he pretends to target his buddies each time? I don't think that he has the ability is in question; it's whether or not his ability is alignment indicative. Why do you say the wagon should dissipate on "principle"?
I think it's highly unlikely that scum!Vezok tries to get GJ lynched with that ability/strategy. Vezok is likely town. I will note, however, that I also don't know how my role would be "normalized". Well...ok, maybe. Sure. But it wouldn't really significantly shift the role? Eh. Whatever. Vezok town. Moving on.
Vote Killmatronix
I can get behind this. There's a lot of hesitancy in killma's posts, even for someone new to the format.
@Tom: A question: want to hop on board this train?
Mikey/GJ: Mikey rolled in the thread and basically tried to roll on pure confidence and self-assertion. This is a powerful scum tactic when it works - I've seen people like kpaca and Seppel win as scum with that play. But it requires a personality to be built ahead of time, and what I'm seeing there is Mikey running headlong into that wall, then scrambling. When GJ came in, I didn't like his attempt to spin this as "my wagon is bad".
Killma: Whole lot of "give me time I'm new", plus the weird comment on vezok "jumping wagons". This could be scum scared to make too much noise, and trying too hard to "stay out of it".
Tom: Playing similarly to Mikey, except getting away with it.
Root: Statements inconsistent with the game state.
Kpaca: No contribution from a strong player, always a red flag.
Obviously way too many scum there, so I need to figure out which groups make sense. I'm still mulling over vezok's claim. The one thing I will say is that vezok can't be scum with GJ - this sequence of claims makes no sense for that scenario.
Only town read is still RE. Unusual - I feel like I typically have several townreads, at least light ones, at this point in the game. Am I getting more paranoid or are people acting differently? Not sure yet.
GJ is still my top behavioral scum pick, so I'm going to lock there. I might get another chance to review things before I go V/LA, I might not.
But besides that knee-jerk reaction to your post, I have to ask: 50 posts since your last post and that's what you post? I need more. Name your top three scum. Go.
But besides that knee-jerk reaction to your post, I have to ask: 50 posts since your last post and that's what you post? I need more. Name your top three scum. Go.
But besides that knee-jerk reaction to your post, I have to ask: 50 posts since your last post and that's what you post? I need more. Name your top three scum. Go.
*time machine noises*
*grumbles* These kids and their goldurned infernal time machines */grumbles*
YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN, AND I MEAN IN ALL TIMES AND REALITIES!!
@The Worst: So I asked about your 380 because it felt really wishy-washy to me. You start with a confident hot take, reinforce it with "you heard it here first", then turn around and say it's a gut read, could be wrong, and you weakly feel out everyone else to see if you can get an amen. It didn't strike me that oddly the first time through, but when I reread it during a review, it just seems totally contradictory to the tone of most the rest of your posts (which, in general, feel very confident and/or without concern for others' opinions). Why so cautious here?
because it's a relatively outlandish read given how comfortable most of the list is w lynching him and also it could be wrong. like Mikey's posting isn't hard to fake as scum I just read it as >random town in retrospect. GJ's posting seems a little more nuanced which I'd expect a bit less from scum so confidence is drifting up.
anyone promised a vezok towncase? hmph anyway his role is, +ev to town I think and considering it's not a vanilliser I think it'd be pretty wild getting hit w that.
Mikey/GJ: Mikey rolled in the thread and basically tried to roll on pure confidence and self-assertion. This is a powerful town tactic when it works - I've seen people like RadiantCowbells and Mathdino win as town with that play. But it requires a personality to be built ahead of time, and what I'm seeing there is Mikey running headlong into that wall, then scrambling. When GJ came in, I didn't like his attempt to spin this as "my wagon is bad".
did some editing for you ^^
can you fill me in on like... why any of that is scum indicative and comes from scum more often than town? considering Mikey had a tantrum af us for being BAD AND WRONG [TM] do you think this comes from a caught wolf or someone who has legitimate issues with how this list plays mafia?
Mikey/GJ: Mikey rolled in the thread and basically tried to roll on pure confidence and self-assertion. This is a powerful town tactic when it works - I've seen people like RadiantCowbells and Mathdino win as town with that play. But it requires a personality to be built ahead of time, and what I'm seeing there is Mikey running headlong into that wall, then scrambling. When GJ came in, I didn't like his attempt to spin this as "my wagon is bad".
did some editing for you ^^
can you fill me in on like... why any of that is scum indicative and comes from scum more often than town?
Sometimes I feel like I've had this argument ten thousand times. Not working with others is anti-town; we work better when we cooperate, not when we do a Fight Of Personalities. Anti-town behavior is definitionally scummy. Yes, some town players do it, sometimes we'll be wrong when we kill a scummy-looking player, but we'll be right more often than we'll be wrong; and if you let people off for every scummy behavior because sometimes town does it too, then the game devolves into nothing but pure gut reads and that's not what I'm here to play.
reverse and Manasi I think I need more outta you both : [
Wait, you have kpaca on the same level as Tom, me, GJ and GD? And then you call out Reverse and Manasi for more content but not kpaca?
*goes to find hidden secret posts by kpaca that I missed the first time, apparently*
Like, I can't even.
And you only responded to one of my questions in 431.
Yeah kpaca mind melded on something with me earlier which I can check if you want which I think comes from town more than scum so he's a rung up by default. he's also just posted promising for more which I haven't seen the other two do yet
Mikey/GJ: Mikey rolled in the thread and basically tried to roll on pure confidence and self-assertion. This is a powerful town tactic when it works - I've seen people like RadiantCowbells and Mathdino win as town with that play. But it requires a personality to be built ahead of time, and what I'm seeing there is Mikey running headlong into that wall, then scrambling. When GJ came in, I didn't like his attempt to spin this as "my wagon is bad".
did some editing for you ^^
can you fill me in on like... why any of that is scum indicative and comes from scum more often than town?
Sometimes I feel like I've had this argument ten thousand times. Not working with others is anti-town; we work better when we cooperate, not when we do a Fight Of Personalities. Anti-town behavior is definitionally scummy. Yes, some town players do it, sometimes we'll be wrong when we kill a scummy-looking player, but we'll be right more often than we'll be wrong; and if you let people off for every scummy behavior because sometimes town does it too, then the game devolves into nothing but pure gut reads and that's not what I'm here to play.
Wonder if it's a site culture difference. I tend to try and actually read alignment in antitown behaviour rather than just lynch it. I might be used to MafiaScum where standards of townplay are kinda all over the place.
The Worst: I don't like that you jumped in right after GJ's response to /barn it, especially without waiting for RE's response. Why did you feel like you needed to do that?
because it's a relatively outlandish read given how comfortable most of the list is w lynching him and also it could be wrong. like Mikey's posting isn't hard to fake as scum I just read it as >random town in retrospect. GJ's posting seems a little more nuanced which I'd expect a bit less from scum so confidence is drifting up.
Ok? I still feel like something's off there, but ok.
I would *love* to hear which of kpaca's posts you melded with. He only has 8, which include a promise to catch up, a "will post later", and a naked vote, so it shouldn't be hard to find which of the other five you're thinking of.
You still haven't followed through on showing me my "really really wolfy pushes", btw. Forgot? I didn't.
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Weekends, always, are spotty for me in terms of how much I can participate, but I will try to get on tomorrow sometime and hopefully again Sunday morning to keep up. Happy where my vote is for now, though.
so @vezok
accepting your read on Kami as similar (stronger but similar) to my read on kpaca what do you reckon about lynching in {Manasi, Root}?
I am actually liking Manasi this game. It's not a strong read, but what she did kinda gives a townish vibe. It's more of a gut read than a behaivoral read.
Root is a more complicated. I'm really undecided about him because I can't gauge how much he knowd about this game. If we need to lynch someone and he is the only one close to it, I"d vote, but otherwise I'd like to focus on GJ and Killman.
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let's find scum instead! ^~^
is that a vanillaize shot? why do you insist it can't co-exist with Mikey's role?
I found scum already in mikey slot.
It's not a vanilla shot. It transforms a role into it's normal version for the night. You tell me what a normal version of Neighboutizer is.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Can you clarify what "normal" means? Could you give an example of a role that isn't normal, and then say what the normal version of that role would be?
Keeping my presence is a thing I noticed I'm struggling with. Bear with me, it's a new format for me and I'm just trying my best to be useful. I realize that it's an area I need to get better in and I'll try to strengthen that suit of my gameplay.
I'd like to say that I'm still leaning GJ as scum, as the things Mikey kept on saying filled me with distrust. Pitching a tantrum at the end doesn't look good either, whatever happened in the game and people already had solid reasons to vote him.
Tom's very hard to read for me. The caps throw me off heavily, but I'm certain that he's more town than scum.
Re strikes me as towny too, their reasonings being pretty justifiable and from a meta example, they're slow to vote, so I've a pretty strong towny leaning on them.
Vezok seems to just be jumping wagons, trying to get an easy lynch in. I'd like to say that I'm moving more towards scum with them.
The rest is more neutral than I'd like.
I am jumping wagons by literally not moving my vote since RVS. I voted a single person this entire game.
You can't even claim I tried to push other wagons as the only other person I've expressed suspicion about is you.
Regarding the normalize ability. I have no idea what a normal version of a role means. It's not explained, but it heavily implies that all roles in this game are not normal.
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@the worst
I forgot to say. I don't really have certain feelings about you and Cantrip, only that in that interaction, you came off looking worse. It could easily be T/T.
Sorry, I don't understand what a "normal version" is. I don't think Osie would give such an easily exposed role to scum that the literal wording of your role PM spews them as scum. I understand if your role is a vanilla-iser (removes all powers and makes them VT) but I'm struggling with working out what a normal version of anything is meant to be.
unless it removes modifiers.....?
like I can't imagine a normal version of my role either, and I don't have any modifiers unless I'm compulsive which I'll check now.
I like this post : ]
tbh I tend to scumread logical players more quickly because I'm kinda logically messy and just follow my gut thru most situations. I did exaggerate my Cantrip SR a little, it was ~nullscumish at its worst but it was alarming me how little tonality his earlier posts had and how they seemed to kinda coexist with the gamestate rather than showing any like... true thoughts and trajectory and *****
so I can relate to where you're at rn
The quick games yesterday. Meta meaning out of thread in this case. Maybe I worded it weirdly, but your votes were slower when you were town.
HONESTLY I'M A MESS OF WORLDBUILDING AND CONNECTIONS THOUGH SO I ONLY KIND OF HAVE ANY READS AT ALL
FLIP PLEASE.
I'M STAYING ON VEZOK FOR NOW BUT WOULD LIKELY JOIN MOST WAGONS
Quick games are often pretty hard to meta read off. mindset is much different when you can take a bit of time to post hahaha
How strongly do you feel about this read? any non meta reasons to back it up?
Also @RE I think there are decent odds that Mikey doesn't know that neighborizer is a role that can be regularly seen as both alignments. And flavor should almost never be alignment indicative, unless you are given mechanical reason to know so (as Cantrip said).
@KA Ready to discuss your Mikey read, pre-GJ? I'll take post-GJ too if you're up to it.
@Tom re: 372 If you're gonna lynch both of them, why move to the one that's more work (further from L-0)?
@GJ Hi, glad you're here. What makes you think the lack of resistance signifies that the wagon should be town? We didn't exactly have any direction prior to this.
@Vezok I'm not sure the overlap/mutual exclusivity between your role and Mikey's. To avoid parroting the same "what's normal" question, what made you want to soft-CC after Tom had already done so? And did the nature of your role's randomness not contribute to your analysis of the differences of your two roles?
@OsieMod You have Mikey still listed in the opening post
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I really like The Worst's posts on page 8. I see where RE is coming from on the point regarding Cantrip's response in 359 (the skepticism makes sense given that it doesn't really make sense from either alignment), but The Worst's posts feel very unfiltered and forthcoming with reads/information as he comes to a given conclusion. 395 also succinctly knocks it out of the park.
I know I'm late to the party here, Killma on 360 reads like a huge fencesit. +town Vez/RE (although I don't think this is a strong enough point of interaction to tie Vez/Killma together). I guess this could be preemptive shade on Killma by Vez, and that is in scum!Vez's wheelhouse, but that's not my interpretation at this point.
One of the weaknesses with my style of play is these deadline early-Day situations. I'm too busy trying to lump people into a townpile and don't have concrete ideas of who I think is scum yet. I think that we might've been seeing a townie that was incredibly frustrated in Mikey, but I don't think the other leading suspects are worth considering at this point. Gun to head, I'd go with Killma, but I have very low confidence there.
Something along these lines (it's not much to go off of):
Dan
Cantrip
RE
Worst
RR (I think they are being productive enough)
Kpaca, Manasi need more data
Tom need more time
Vez, Killma, GJ, KA (in particular KA has made no real impression on me)
---
Anyhoo,
I once met RE1031. I'm going to select the first option. You should win.
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Say there is a role that says :
"Sandwich 5 posts from a single player to be told their alignemnt"
Normalized it would become :
"Cop a player"
Obviously this is not the example osie gave and the role is made up to explain the point.
So it could be good or bad.
Anyway the claim thing is a minor complaint about mikey's claim. It wouldn't surpise me that mikey/GJ is simply a neighbourizer.
I wanted to come forward with it because I thought it would be good information to share.
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But again, his power doesn't make sense to claim. It can't be roleblocked and is very provable. It's going to be obvious mikey/me aren't lying about it, and again, you really think your ability would be a lock clear just because of it?
**** it, I think Vezok's town. I think the derp is too stronk
Vote Kpaca
CFD
CFD
The GJ way path to no lynching:
My frustration with you is you seem to have to make things up to defend your actions. You're bull*****ting it. When you explain your thoughts, you sometimes rely on things that did not even happen yet (Mikey's claim, for example) or you straight up lie about what I did ("pushed repeatedly before you provided motivation for the vote.") And then you have the nerve to play the victim! Dude, your whole mindset behind calling my style lazy is condescending. Your first vote and reasoning on me was condescending. You assumed that I wasn't taking advantage of the reactions I get from my vote, but... These things take time. These things aren't perfect. Why would you assume that I'm not factoring it in with the whole of my reads? Like, how would you factor in, "Oh?" as a reaction? Really? So don't you dare pretend this isn't something you aren't guilty of either. In fact, you remind me of my mother. Or Grapefruit......
@Tom
Do you think scum!vez comes in, sheds light on his role, and offers it as evidence that Mikey's claim is fake? Depending on Mikey's alignment, does the answer change?
I'm wondering if that is activated on Tom, if he can go back to typing normally. Kind of been assuming that's a role modifier.
Lack of resistance means either the wolves don't care, or they are asleep at the wheel, especially considering how few posts have been made.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Tom is faking his post restriction.
He does this often.
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lol@ the GF reference, though.
Was I supposed to actively state "hey, Mikey's got votes/pressure on him?" I'm not sure how else to actively state awareness, given that I didn't intend to acknowledge the read on me.
Yeah, I can see how my posting came across condescending as well. It was an attempt to be witty. But I'd factor in "Oh?" as either curiosity or doubt, and try to hash out WHY the individual felt that way.
@Vez Aren't you inherently modgaming by questioning the setup?
My experience with townkpaca is that he is just as likely to shove a townie than a wolf.
I don't know who else I want to lynch though. Vezok not so much, not even for his claim, but his naivete.
Manasi said she will step up. I'll give her a day to change my mind.
Vote Killer
I didn't like his response to VEzok's post. This line in particular:
Read Vezok's response.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I don't think any of this is valid currently, though.
@RE: I asked you to chime in on that because you're my top town read and I wanted to see if you picked up on the tone. That you didn't makes me wonder if it's not that big a deal.
@GJ: I asked you because it almost felt like 380 was scum!Worst floating a derpclear on his buddy Mikey/GJ slot, but not wanting to commit to it. I figured your response could demolish or strengthen that theory. You chose to...literally explain what The Worst was saying to me as though I were in grade school? Really? Why no evaluation of The Worst himself? (I mean, no, I didn't explicitly say "what do you think #380 says *about* The Worst", but I feel like in general when you ask a player about a post, you're asking for reads, not interpretation...)
The Worst: I don't like that you jumped in right after GJ's response to /barn it, especially without waiting for RE's response. Why did you feel like you needed to do that?
@Manasi: Why do you acknowledge that GJ is in the game in 396 and then go crazy about him being in the game in 398? I also don't understand what you're trying to say about Mikey/GJ's ability in 397; can you elaborate? Are you saying that he'll have to prove that he has the ability unless he pretends to target his buddies each time? I don't think that he has the ability is in question; it's whether or not his ability is alignment indicative. Why do you say the wagon should dissipate on "principle"?
I think it's highly unlikely that scum!Vezok tries to get GJ lynched with that ability/strategy. Vezok is likely town. I will note, however, that I also don't know how my role would be "normalized". Well...ok, maybe. Sure. But it wouldn't really significantly shift the role? Eh. Whatever. Vezok town. Moving on.
Vote Killmatronix
I can get behind this. There's a lot of hesitancy in killma's posts, even for someone new to the format.
@Tom: A question: want to hop on board this train?
Mikey/GJ: Mikey rolled in the thread and basically tried to roll on pure confidence and self-assertion. This is a powerful scum tactic when it works - I've seen people like kpaca and Seppel win as scum with that play. But it requires a personality to be built ahead of time, and what I'm seeing there is Mikey running headlong into that wall, then scrambling. When GJ came in, I didn't like his attempt to spin this as "my wagon is bad".
Killma: Whole lot of "give me time I'm new", plus the weird comment on vezok "jumping wagons". This could be scum scared to make too much noise, and trying too hard to "stay out of it".
Tom: Playing similarly to Mikey, except getting away with it.
Root: Statements inconsistent with the game state.
Kpaca: No contribution from a strong player, always a red flag.
Obviously way too many scum there, so I need to figure out which groups make sense. I'm still mulling over vezok's claim. The one thing I will say is that vezok can't be scum with GJ - this sequence of claims makes no sense for that scenario.
Only town read is still RE. Unusual - I feel like I typically have several townreads, at least light ones, at this point in the game. Am I getting more paranoid or are people acting differently? Not sure yet.
GJ is still my top behavioral scum pick, so I'm going to lock there. I might get another chance to review things before I go V/LA, I might not.
unvote
vote GJ
But besides that knee-jerk reaction to your post, I have to ask: 50 posts since your last post and that's what you post? I need more. Name your top three scum. Go.
YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN, AND I MEAN IN ALL TIMES AND REALITIES!!
because it's a relatively outlandish read given how comfortable most of the list is w lynching him and also it could be wrong. like Mikey's posting isn't hard to fake as scum I just read it as >random town in retrospect. GJ's posting seems a little more nuanced which I'd expect a bit less from scum so confidence is drifting up.
anyone promised a vezok towncase? hmph anyway his role is, +ev to town I think and considering it's not a vanilliser I think it'd be pretty wild getting hit w that.
did some editing for you ^^
can you fill me in on like... why any of that is scum indicative and comes from scum more often than town? considering Mikey had a tantrum af us for being BAD AND WRONG [TM] do you think this comes from a caught wolf or someone who has legitimate issues with how this list plays mafia?
*sinks slowly*
{RE}
{toms, Cantrip, GJ, kpaca, ganderin_dan}
null: {ReverseRoot, Manasi}
{Killma}
{vezok, KamikazeArchon}
reverse and Manasi I think I need more outta you both : [
I was just going to comment how KA has the exact same thoughta that I have/had. I'm heavily townreading him now.
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*goes to find hidden secret posts by kpaca that I missed the first time, apparently*
Like, I can't even.
And you only responded to one of my questions in 431.
Yeah kpaca mind melded on something with me earlier which I can check if you want which I think comes from town more than scum so he's a rung up by default. he's also just posted promising for more which I haven't seen the other two do yet
what else do you want from me wrt 431?
Wonder if it's a site culture difference. I tend to try and actually read alignment in antitown behaviour rather than just lynch it. I might be used to MafiaScum where standards of townplay are kinda all over the place.
accepting your read on Kami as similar (stronger but similar) to my read on kpaca what do you reckon about lynching in {Manasi, Root}?
--------------------------
Ok? I still feel like something's off there, but ok.
I would *love* to hear which of kpaca's posts you melded with. He only has 8, which include a promise to catch up, a "will post later", and a naked vote, so it shouldn't be hard to find which of the other five you're thinking of.
You still haven't followed through on showing me my "really really wolfy pushes", btw. Forgot? I didn't.
--------------------------
Weekends, always, are spotty for me in terms of how much I can participate, but I will try to get on tomorrow sometime and hopefully again Sunday morning to keep up. Happy where my vote is for now, though.
I am actually liking Manasi this game. It's not a strong read, but what she did kinda gives a townish vibe. It's more of a gut read than a behaivoral read.
Root is a more complicated. I'm really undecided about him because I can't gauge how much he knowd about this game. If we need to lynch someone and he is the only one close to it, I"d vote, but otherwise I'd like to focus on GJ and Killman.
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