So the theory for a me/vezok team is we both decided not to use our thief and redirect to instead claim in such a way that the other is half outed when the other flips?
Nope. You have an avenue to deniability. Vezok flips, you say "oh, he must have redirected Grape." You flip, Vezok says, "Oh, he confirmed my doc action for town cred." Without the rest of the game solution, it's a perfectly reasonable scum plan.
Because once we claim watcher and doc we can never use the scum side of the coin.
You can use the scum side just fine, so long as either (1) the target isn't notified or (2) the target is also NKed or (3) you win anyway. I'm guessing (1), because the last osie game had redirects not informing the target they were redirected.
Also, one of you could be the Roleblocker - it doesn't have to be Redirector & Thief. I'm guessing this is actually a minor slip that confirms Redirector/Thief is the actual combination.
I want wuffles to be scum so bad, for being so bad...
I want him to be scum too but at this point it's just because I want to have been right about something yesterday.
And remember messenger is not an AI role so confirming doesn't do a whole lot but it does a little technically
He's possibly the bad town that I thought kj was
ya but why ******* not confirm it... I don't get it, it's like he's trying to say he's messenger but has no real way of confirming it, which means it's probably the left over role...
Like I'm a *****ty tonal player, but everything wuffles has done, screams scum to me, like I haven't seen one good post from him like at all, and I'm not even exaggerating... Or even a good play
Almost wish I didnt read Osies message confirming the mistake...
Sure, but if you listen to Tom in that line, it's still a very heavy focus target on us. He's pushing very hard for it because us being bulletproof means that we have to be lynched so that the bulletproof target slips away before the night time. The more I look at this, the more it just seems like Tom's sudden evaluation shift to the likelihood on us is switching over to try and remove a town who has analytically broken down the teams pretty succinctly. My distaste for Tom has gone up by a ton... but I know how OMGUS that looks. Honestly, I think missing the Tom Lynch is actually a huge misplay that we should have caught. Opportunity missed for having Last on this side might have passed, but legitimately Tom's split of picking us as an easy target because of the suspicion that our Inactivity sparked just seems like an easy way for him to try to dodge the target again. Either way... If it comes to Lynch, I think Kami did his part in putting our thoughts together so... When/if you lynch us and find us out to be town, choose your protect/jail targets carefully or Day 3 is going to result in 2 dead town.
Why would you flipping town confirm Tom, Vezok? He claimed to see you AFTER EVERYONE HAD ALREADY CLAIMED TARGETS. And no one claimed Motivated so it was a safe claim.
I seriously think tom and you are scum together though. He never saw you target Grape, and you never doc'd him.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm making a Vezok post. Will finish tom after D&D later.
Vezok is for sure scum. Wuffles very likely isn't. Kami COULD be but he's like. 3rd for me after tom/Vez.
hey yo vezok doesn't make sense as scum without me unless it's with you by claim timing
Fypov it SHOULD be always me and you should be solving vezok vs Kami for my partner
Just helping you out
@last this is why it's more likely Kami/kj than kami/wuffles
It is, however, official that the hydra has decided what they need to push. They clearly talked about this before posting. they are on the same page and the second one is acting like "oh yeah what he said is totally right"
Just cause I don't want to have a lynch in 4 posts.
and what were u afraid of? did you really think someone was gunna hammer this early?
Tom
if you say so
vote: Vezok
ill be back later
If you were at three votes instead of two I would've hammered. I thought it wouldn't be a fun game if someone got lynched in the first four posts of the game so I unvoted, because if I thought this someone else might think the same.
But yeah, you're scum and I regret unvoting.
vote last
Lets look at this post for a sec. He would have hammered if last was at 3 votes because 'it would have been fun to lynch someone in 4 posts'. That is not a townie mindset.Especially with the game being so small. We don't have much room for error. This is also bad due to thefact that Last is confirmed, so we know he's pushing this on town.
And I'm more annoyed that you didn't give a reason I could be scum than you calling me surly.
Also Vote tom
This vote inspires so much confidence.
u are just shading at this point, choosing to ignore your posts would be petty, something tells your opinion will never change unless one of me or killjoy gets lynched today
You're actually right. I'm tunneling way too hard and there's a big chance I'm wrong. At this moment last/killjoy makes the most sense as a scumteam for me, but last's posts are hard to decipher. I've seen some scummy things and almost no townie things from him, but the way he is approaching this game make me think he might not be scum. There was real pressure on him and then it dissipated and he's playing about the same. I still can't shake the feeling that he is panicked as scum caught for the wrong reasons in the beginning.
Killjoy is just scum, because that's the way he is. That tom vote is highly opportunistic while at the same time buddying up to wuffles. It might just be killjoy playing his regular game, but something still feels off about him.
I wish Rumanashi and KamiKazin would post more and get more involved, because I have almost no read on them and there's that nagging feeling that I'm wrong about last and Kami is actually scum. Ruma gave some town glimpses although you can never be sure there.
All I know is that Wuffles and tom are strong town for me and it would take a pretty great case to convince me otherwise.
Now lets look at this one. Firstly, he starts by talking directly to last, then switches to third person. As if rehashing a narritive he's constructed instead of actually talking about his actual thoughts to last.(Like, he starts with 'you're' and continues by saying 'last/kj scumteam, last's posts, almost no townie things from him, etc' despite that post being directed to last). Then there's the part about me. I'm 'just scum' again with no real reasoning, and my vote on tom is 'opportunistic and buddying to wuffles' the first of which is unexplained and the second is just bad. Voting the same person as someone else isn't buddying.
@KJ: Yes. Dead bodies after day 1 are always better. Right now all the active players have different reads and we can't come to a consensus. Having bodies flipped would help narrow the scumteam.
I was scum in the last mini played here (grape was the mod), Pirates mafia and Prison Block mafia.
This is just actually false. Dead town is not better than no lynch here, especially given the mechanics of this game.
However, given this is kinda true OTHER TIMES, this is a more minor point. The whole "I won't hammer Wuffles, except I will now if we hit deadline" one post apart bugs me.
I feel like last is town just for the claim. Tom seems like he has no external info.
Grape is town cause I protected him.
The leaves Kami, wuffles and killjoy.
I really think it's kami/killjoy.
In normal circumstances I'd be ok with me getting lynched to confirm grape as town, but he'll just get killed tonight and we end up with nothing.
Also I protected grape cause he was my second steongest townread after wuffles and I thought there is no chance for the scum to NK wuffles.
End of D1, Vezok snapvoted Kami, claiming that the slot needed death. Now, his 'urge to kill kami is rising' which seems to indicate it wasn't already at it's peak. If he's iwlling to snapvote Kami at the end of D1, why say something like 'urge to kill kami is rising' here?
I'm gonna put this here too, as well as in the spoiler. Special attention.
Vezok has been calling Wuffles town all game, various ways. It's his strongest town read. But, unquestioningly, he throws this vote on him. If my biggest townread had done what Wuffles had done, I'd question it. That's what happens when you're actually townreading someone. You double check things like this.
Another special case. Tom is supposed to be his other top town read. And yet, here he is in his lynchpool. (This is the only real hard evidence I have against a tom/Vezok team btw).
@Last: In a world where you aren't scum, I'd imagine the scum team would in kamikazin/rumanashi/killjoy. But Rumanashi feels town this game. And Kami/Kazin is a big null for me.
@vez I seem to be missing. Especially considering you think wuffles is town and are talking about the (Still unlikely) hypothetical in which last is town
The one where I said everyone else except last and killjoy are town for me.
This is kind of a lesser point, but Vezok totally forgets Tom in his "reasoned" (I say that lightly) list. Vezok tries to play it off saying "Oh no I mentioned you in my "everyone but kj and last are scum, everyone else town" post... but no he totally forgot he was supposed to be reading tom too.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
ya but dont really care for it...
looks agenda based...
either way Idk, Vez has a very *****ty playstyle, that leads to him being mislynched I bet, I can see by how he plays here, and its obnoxious, and he probably should be dead, dont care for him at all
Id rather take Toms no case on me, then his Vez's ***** case on me (aka Vez is bad), but his voteswitch to kami feelt towny
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm making a Vezok post. Will finish tom after D&D later.
Vezok is for sure scum. Wuffles very likely isn't. Kami COULD be but he's like. 3rd for me after tom/Vez.
hey yo vezok doesn't make sense as scum without me unless it's with you by claim timing
Fypov it SHOULD be always me and you should be solving vezok vs Kami for my partner
Just helping you out
@last this is why it's more likely Kami/kj than kami/wuffles
It is, however, official that the hydra has decided what they need to push. They clearly talked about this before posting. they are on the same page and the second one is acting like "oh yeah what he said is totally right"
So yeah
vote kami
Kj tomorrow
Profit
Really quickly and it's making me pause. I'm failing to see what exactly is scummy about a hydra coming to a conclusion before posting. Which seems to be the bulk of his case at this point.
Now to read KJ's big Vezok post because without reading it; it's giving me pause because pushing Vez before tom is a weird place to push unless you're trying to keep a mislynch alive like tom said. I don't see how Vezo can be scum without tom but tom can be scum without Vez.
My read on vezok doesn't matter at all he's either [as claimed] or [exactly scum redirector that redirected grape from kj to kj and claimed it before either of them]
(@last which is why it's strictly wrong to lynch vezok before me from his POV. Which, if he was town he would have easily figured out but he went about the vezok case already having decided I have to be scum and still managed to move his vote away from me
I'm making a Vezok post. Will finish tom after D&D later.
Vezok is for sure scum. Wuffles very likely isn't. Kami COULD be but he's like. 3rd for me after tom/Vez.
hey yo vezok doesn't make sense as scum without me unless it's with you by claim timing
Fypov it SHOULD be always me and you should be solving vezok vs Kami for my partner
Just helping you out
@last this is why it's more likely Kami/kj than kami/wuffles
It is, however, official that the hydra has decided what they need to push. They clearly talked about this before posting. they are on the same page and the second one is acting like "oh yeah what he said is totally right"
So yeah
vote kami
Kj tomorrow
Profit
Really quickly and it's making me pause. I'm failing to see what exactly is scummy about a hydra coming to a conclusion before posting. Which seems to be the bulk of his case at this point.
Now to read KJ's big Vezok post because without reading it; it's giving me pause because pushing Vez before tom is a weird place to push unless you're trying to keep a mislynch alive like tom said. I don't see how Vezo can be scum without tom but tom can be scum without Vez.
seriously bro?
They hadn't posted today afair and came in hard with an agenda AND pretended to come to it separately.
Kj has been significantly scummier today obviously (read my posts, etc) but kami is still the right lynch
Maybe it was sudden but I had to accept the fact that I was literally wrong about everything day 1 and got there anyway this is actually quite impressive if right
My read on vezok doesn't matter at all he's either [as claimed] or [exactly scum redirector that redirected grape from kj to kj and claimed it before either of them]
(@last which is why it's strictly wrong to lynch vezok before me from his POV. Which, if he was town he would have easily figured out but he went about the vezok case already having decided I have to be scum and still managed to move his vote away from me
This is true. And Vezok claiming doc before he knew if I targeted KJ and thus would know if I was redirected or not is actually bonkers and not addressed by KJ at all. Like Vezok being the first mechanical claim if he redirected me to KJ is insane if he's scum. There is no world where it makes sense. You never would redirect someone to the person you're going to kill in this setup (unless Ruma dropped a false tracker breadcrumb that he picked up on and I missed, but that is still patently absurd). The fact that no one died and Vezok targeted me (unless buddies with tom and running a crazy gambit) means he just isn't scum here regardless of what pushes he made.
In fact KJ's whole case is behavioral and completely ignores mechanics which are a really good look for Vezo. It's a really high effort post from KJ and if it didn't completely ignore the best thing we have to read Vezok with and not propose any alternative to a Vezo/Tom team but still want to lynch Vezo first it would be a good post. Instead it's pants on head scummy.
Tom what changed your mind on KK? You went from *shrug* to sure really quickly.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Grape I was already looking at Kami as possible scum and just waiting for them to show up and claim.
Iirc I made a post that I was gonna stop talking about them and didn't for a bit
But it's just team building and being an adult. I would totally rather lynch kj after these last couple of posts
My read on vezok doesn't matter at all he's either [as claimed] or [exactly scum redirector that redirected grape from kj to kj and claimed it before either of them]
(@last which is why it's strictly wrong to lynch vezok before me from his POV. Which, if he was town he would have easily figured out but he went about the vezok case already having decided I have to be scum and still managed to move his vote away from me
This is true. And Vezok claiming doc before he knew if I targeted KJ and thus would know if I was redirected or not is actually bonkers and not addressed by KJ at all. Like Vezok being the first mechanical claim if he redirected me to KJ is insane if he's scum. There is no world where it makes sense. You never would redirect someone to the person you're going to kill in this setup (unless Ruma dropped a false tracker breadcrumb that he picked up on and I missed, but that is still patently absurd). The fact that no one died and Vezok targeted me (unless buddies with tom and running a crazy gambit) means he just isn't scum here regardless of what pushes he made.
In fact KJ's whole case is behavioral and completely ignores mechanics which are a really good look for Vezo. It's a really high effort post from KJ and if it didn't completely ignore the best thing we have to read Vezok with and not propose any alternative to a Vezo/Tom team but still want to lynch Vezo first it would be a good post. Instead it's pants on head scummy.
Tom what changed your mind on KK? You went from *shrug* to sure really quickly.
... What? Behavior is a better indicator of alignment than mechanics. Why is my post scummy because I only included behavior? I don't understand this.
The purpose of the post was to show why vezok is scum. If I had not time I would have included why Tom is scum.
Kami is the only scum alternative. I've said this. Tom or Vezok them the other then kami
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Kj unless you can explain how vez is scum without me, voting him is strictly incorrect and I don't believe townyou wouldn't realize that
good way of putting it... honestly dont see why he didnt ISO u first... Vez was like the least of our worries, seems more like hes trying to push a train that was mostly non existent
(snip*
seriously bro?
They hadn't posted today afair and came in hard with an agenda AND pretended to come to it separately.
Kj has been significantly scummier today obviously (read my posts, etc) but kami is still the right lynch
Maybe it was sudden but I had to accept the fact that I was literally wrong about everything day 1 and got there anyway this is actually quite impressive if right
So you beat me to the punch while I was looking at KJ's wall. I hadn't actually read KK's posts (his mechanics breakdown and especially 504. I was only reacting to the post I quoted because your *shrug* one was stuck in my head last night. Reading them now it's definitely more than just two heads reaching a decision. 504's complaining about missing a chance to have lynched you feels like trying to appear townie and recall people's emotional desire to lynch you yesterday because they feel a mislynch slipping away. It's also so self aware and tentative about making the push which fits with trying to come in and cinch a mislynch but feeling disconnected from the game.
not even that dude... look at his early questions, his vote changes, and not caring about reads on himself? this is not town!Kami
(snip*
seriously bro?
They hadn't posted today afair and came in hard with an agenda AND pretended to come to it separately.
Kj has been significantly scummier today obviously (read my posts, etc) but kami is still the right lynch
Maybe it was sudden but I had to accept the fact that I was literally wrong about everything day 1 and got there anyway this is actually quite impressive if right
So you beat me to the punch while I was looking at KJ's wall. I hadn't actually read KK's posts (his mechanics breakdown and especially 504. I was only reacting to the post I quoted because your *shrug* one was stuck in my head last night. Reading them now it's definitely more than just two heads reaching a decision. 504's complaining about missing a chance to have lynched you feels like trying to appear townie and recall people's emotional desire to lynch you yesterday because they feel a mislynch slipping away. It's also so self aware and tentative about making the push which fits with trying to come in and cinch a mislynch but feeling disconnected from the game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
But if vez is scum redirector then you're also scum because no one claimed redirect. He couldn't have targeted grape.
Unless I was redirected to my original target I would be notified if I were redirected. I wasn't. Redirector is the coinflip of Doc. It would be suicidal to claim Doc on me if he had redirected me to you.
But if vez is scum redirector then you're also scum because no one claimed redirect. He couldn't have targeted grape.
Unless I was redirected to my original target I would be notified if I were redirected. I wasn't. Redirector is the coinflip of Doc. It would be suicidal to claim Doc on me if he had redirected me to you.
exactly. No one claimed it. If vez is redirector then he knows there's no doc. If he didn't Target you, then Tom couldn't have seen it. Tom is still scum. Therefore.
But if vez is scum redirector then you're also scum because no one claimed redirect. He couldn't have targeted grape.
Unless I was redirected to my original target I would be notified if I were redirected. I wasn't. Redirector is the coinflip of Doc. It would be suicidal to claim Doc on me if he had redirected me to you.
exactly. No one claimed it. If vez is redirector then he knows there's no doc. If he didn't Target you, then Tom couldn't have seen it. Tom is still scum. Therefore.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
But if vez is scum redirector then you're also scum because no one claimed redirect. He couldn't have targeted grape.
Unless I was redirected to my original target I would be notified if I were redirected. I wasn't. Redirector is the coinflip of Doc. It would be suicidal to claim Doc on me if he had redirected me to you.
exactly. No one claimed it. If vez is redirector then he knows there's no doc. If he didn't Target you, then Tom couldn't have seen it. Tom is still scum. Therefore.
I know I've made this point before.
That's why your vote on Vezok is bad. You're scum trying to keep tom as a viable mislynch for tomorrow. Vezok flipping anything other than Doc is 100% damning for tom and wins the game immediately, but Vezok flipping Doc doesn't rule out every scum!tom world. Tom flipping town!watcher 100% clears Vezok and makes him an IC. Tom flipping scum points to scum!Vezok but doesn't guarantee it.
But if vez is scum redirector then you're also scum because no one claimed redirect. He couldn't have targeted grape.
Unless I was redirected to my original target I would be notified if I were redirected. I wasn't. Redirector is the coinflip of Doc. It would be suicidal to claim Doc on me if he had redirected me to you.
exactly. No one claimed it. If vez is redirector then he knows there's no doc. If he didn't Target you, then Tom couldn't have seen it. Tom is still scum. Therefore.
I know I've made this point before.
That's why your vote on Vezok is bad. You're scum trying to keep tom as a viable mislynch for tomorrow. Vezok flipping anything other than Doc is 100% damning for tom and wins the game immediately, but Vezok flipping Doc doesn't rule out every scum!tom world. Tom flipping town!watcher 100% clears Vezok and makes him an IC. Tom flipping scum points to scum!Vezok but doesn't guarantee it.
they're both scum though. It could be Tom kami but I really think vezok is scum for the constantly pushing lynches among the other things.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
not even that dude... look at his early questions, his vote changes, and not caring about reads on himself? this is not town!Kami
I mean that stuff matters too but 504 is just a scum post. It's a huge perspective slip.
Quote from Kazin »
Honestly, I think missing the Tom Lynch is actually a huge misplay that we should have caught. Opportunity missed for having Last on this side might have passed, but legitimately Tom's split of picking us as an easy target because of the suspicion that our Inactivity sparked just seems like an easy way for him to try to dodge the target again.
I've felt this way so many times as scum, but never as town. It's why I'm always so surprised when I get mislynched; I'm convinced of my rightness and can't believe others can't see it. Whereas when scum once people's reads are "right" it feels like it's impossible to change their minds because you know they're correct and it's hard to argue against a position you know is true.
not even that dude... look at his early questions, his vote changes, and not caring about reads on himself? this is not town!Kami
I mean that stuff matters too but 504 is just a scum post. It's a huge perspective slip.
Quote from Kazin »
Honestly, I think missing the Tom Lynch is actually a huge misplay that we should have caught. Opportunity missed for having Last on this side might have passed, but legitimately Tom's split of picking us as an easy target because of the suspicion that our Inactivity sparked just seems like an easy way for him to try to dodge the target again.
I've felt this way so many times as scum, but never as town. It's why I'm always so surprised when I get mislynched; I'm convinced of my rightness and can't believe others can't see it. Whereas when scum once people's reads are "right" it feels like it's impossible to change their minds because you know they're correct and it's hard to argue against a position you know is true.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And remember messenger is not an AI role so confirming doesn't do a whole lot but it does a little technically
He's possibly the bad town that I thought kj was
You can use the scum side just fine, so long as either (1) the target isn't notified or (2) the target is also NKed or (3) you win anyway. I'm guessing (1), because the last osie game had redirects not informing the target they were redirected.
Also, one of you could be the Roleblocker - it doesn't have to be Redirector & Thief. I'm guessing this is actually a minor slip that confirms Redirector/Thief is the actual combination.
- Kami
Like I'm a *****ty tonal player, but everything wuffles has done, screams scum to me, like I haven't seen one good post from him like at all, and I'm not even exaggerating... Or even a good play
Almost wish I didnt read Osies message confirming the mistake...
- Kazin
1. Is wrong, Osie does confirm redirects
2. Makes no sense, why redirect just to hide it, instead of doing something useful
3. ???
U are wrong on so many levels
If I wasn't at work I'd comment on ur above post also
The team is KK and KJ. Like look at ******* KK trying to claim that me or tom flipping wouldn't confirm the other. That's pure discord seeding.
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I seriously think tom and you are scum together though. He never saw you target Grape, and you never doc'd him.
And no, it's most likely kami/wuffles
Vezok is for sure scum. Wuffles very likely isn't. Kami COULD be but he's like. 3rd for me after tom/Vez.
Fypov it SHOULD be always me and you should be solving vezok vs Kami for my partner
Just helping you out
@last this is why it's more likely Kami/kj than kami/wuffles
It is, however, official that the hydra has decided what they need to push. They clearly talked about this before posting. they are on the same page and the second one is acting like "oh yeah what he said is totally right"
So yeah
vote kami
Kj tomorrow
Profit
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?by-author=vezokpiraka&page=3&search-thread-id=794257
Lets look at this post for a sec. He would have hammered if last was at 3 votes because 'it would have been fun to lynch someone in 4 posts'. That is not a townie mindset.Especially with the game being so small. We don't have much room for error. This is also bad due to thefact that Last is confirmed, so we know he's pushing this on town.
Now lets look at this one. Firstly, he starts by talking directly to last, then switches to third person. As if rehashing a narritive he's constructed instead of actually talking about his actual thoughts to last.(Like, he starts with 'you're' and continues by saying 'last/kj scumteam, last's posts, almost no townie things from him, etc' despite that post being directed to last). Then there's the part about me. I'm 'just scum' again with no real reasoning, and my vote on tom is 'opportunistic and buddying to wuffles' the first of which is unexplained and the second is just bad. Voting the same person as someone else isn't buddying.
However, given this is kinda true OTHER TIMES, this is a more minor point. The whole "I won't hammer Wuffles, except I will now if we hit deadline" one post apart bugs me.
End of D1, Vezok snapvoted Kami, claiming that the slot needed death. Now, his 'urge to kill kami is rising' which seems to indicate it wasn't already at it's peak. If he's iwlling to snapvote Kami at the end of D1, why say something like 'urge to kill kami is rising' here?
I'm gonna put this here too, as well as in the spoiler. Special attention.
Vezok has been calling Wuffles town all game, various ways. It's his strongest town read. But, unquestioningly, he throws this vote on him. If my biggest townread had done what Wuffles had done, I'd question it. That's what happens when you're actually townreading someone. You double check things like this.
Another special case. Tom is supposed to be his other top town read. And yet, here he is in his lynchpool. (This is the only real hard evidence I have against a tom/Vezok team btw).
Why Vezok and tom are scum together
Oh hey tom is 'strong town' all ofa sudden, without any progression.
More unexplainedness. Tom never asks why this is the case.
I hope that wasn't a hammer. I'll work on the tom only one after D&D
Vote Vezok
ya but dont really care for it...
looks agenda based...
either way Idk, Vez has a very *****ty playstyle, that leads to him being mislynched I bet, I can see by how he plays here, and its obnoxious, and he probably should be dead, dont care for him at all
Id rather take Toms no case on me, then his Vez's ***** case on me (aka Vez is bad), but his voteswitch to kami feelt towny
There's literally zero reason for town kj to be voting vezok over me unless he needs me for another mislynch tomorrow
I've been busy all morning but I'll finally have some time to play this afternoon.
What's your read on vezok?
Grape
and I dont get you, all you keep saying is you have no read on Kami, who the hell do you think is scum then...
I don't have a strong read on Kami. But I do not like tom's push on them at all. He went from this:
To this:
Really quickly and it's making me pause. I'm failing to see what exactly is scummy about a hydra coming to a conclusion before posting. Which seems to be the bulk of his case at this point.
Now to read KJ's big Vezok post because without reading it; it's giving me pause because pushing Vez before tom is a weird place to push unless you're trying to keep a mislynch alive like tom said. I don't see how Vezo can be scum without tom but tom can be scum without Vez.
(@last which is why it's strictly wrong to lynch vezok before me from his POV. Which, if he was town he would have easily figured out but he went about the vezok case already having decided I have to be scum and still managed to move his vote away from me
They hadn't posted today afair and came in hard with an agenda AND pretended to come to it separately.
Kj has been significantly scummier today obviously (read my posts, etc) but kami is still the right lynch
Maybe it was sudden but I had to accept the fact that I was literally wrong about everything day 1 and got there anyway this is actually quite impressive if right
This is true. And Vezok claiming doc before he knew if I targeted KJ and thus would know if I was redirected or not is actually bonkers and not addressed by KJ at all. Like Vezok being the first mechanical claim if he redirected me to KJ is insane if he's scum. There is no world where it makes sense. You never would redirect someone to the person you're going to kill in this setup (unless Ruma dropped a false tracker breadcrumb that he picked up on and I missed, but that is still patently absurd). The fact that no one died and Vezok targeted me (unless buddies with tom and running a crazy gambit) means he just isn't scum here regardless of what pushes he made.
In fact KJ's whole case is behavioral and completely ignores mechanics which are a really good look for Vezo. It's a really high effort post from KJ and if it didn't completely ignore the best thing we have to read Vezok with and not propose any alternative to a Vezo/Tom team but still want to lynch Vezo first it would be a good post. Instead it's pants on head scummy.
Tom what changed your mind on KK? You went from *shrug* to sure really quickly.
Iirc I made a post that I was gonna stop talking about them and didn't for a bit
But it's just team building and being an adult. I would totally rather lynch kj after these last couple of posts
The purpose of the post was to show why vezok is scum. If I had not time I would have included why Tom is scum.
Kami is the only scum alternative. I've said this. Tom or Vezok them the other then kami
kami isnt the alternative, he should be the lynch today
So you beat me to the punch while I was looking at KJ's wall. I hadn't actually read KK's posts (his mechanics breakdown and especially 504. I was only reacting to the post I quoted because your *shrug* one was stuck in my head last night. Reading them now it's definitely more than just two heads reaching a decision. 504's complaining about missing a chance to have lynched you feels like trying to appear townie and recall people's emotional desire to lynch you yesterday because they feel a mislynch slipping away. It's also so self aware and tentative about making the push which fits with trying to come in and cinch a mislynch but feeling disconnected from the game.
lynch tom for information, anyone?How is behavior a better indicator of alignment than mechanics?
You can't have that, can you
Unless I was redirected to my original target I would be notified if I were redirected. I wasn't. Redirector is the coinflip of Doc. It would be suicidal to claim Doc on me if he had redirected me to you.
I know I've made this point before.
That's why your vote on Vezok is bad. You're scum trying to keep tom as a viable mislynch for tomorrow. Vezok flipping anything other than Doc is 100% damning for tom and wins the game immediately, but Vezok flipping Doc doesn't rule out every scum!tom world. Tom flipping town!watcher 100% clears Vezok and makes him an IC. Tom flipping scum points to scum!Vezok but doesn't guarantee it.
I mean that stuff matters too but 504 is just a scum post. It's a huge perspective slip.
I've felt this way so many times as scum, but never as town. It's why I'm always so surprised when I get mislynched; I'm convinced of my rightness and can't believe others can't see it. Whereas when scum once people's reads are "right" it feels like it's impossible to change their minds because you know they're correct and it's hard to argue against a position you know is true.
Vote: KK