town
Terry
Iso
Grape
RE (Shinichi) - Shin/Last debate
Last - Shin/Last debate
Kamikaze - another Shinichi from ZE ~ do not tunnel
Silver (Yurkin) - I townread this slot for...the attention it received while Yurkin.
Cyan - liked his handling of Vezok's claim.
Vezok - he shouldn't have claimed vault if he wanted to save his hide. more town than scum here.
null - feeling unsure about this category
Tom (DisplayName)
Shadow
Wuffles (Gwen)
Proph
Rhand
not enough content
Gemma (Cantrip/Vaimes)
Killjoy
Atog
DoTA
gonna change Grape to the null/unsure category. and if I were reading myself, I would slot myself in there too.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Then we have tom. He's being tom and tom is hard to read. He does similar things as both alignments and is just super tricky to read. I have him here just because I firmly believe that inconsistency on Wisp earlier and his reaction to it.
@grapes - I didnt say he has proven town time and time again. I said his posts seem unfiltered and brash time and time again, which Proph says is a pretty solid town meta for him. I've never played with the guy before but I'm happy to follow Proph here because his meta read from way back 520 seems to have remained pretty consistently how wisp is playing so far.
so proph is town because he's town reading last who is town because proph said so
Got it
@DBS I can tell you what it is. Frankly, though, I'm reluctant to do so at this stage, because:
1) you're the only one that seems concerned about finding out, and
2) because three doctors have already hard claimed and I don't think that it serves anyone's purpose to give the scums more info than they've already gotten.
@Kami: I missed you guys I guess. To make that post, I had the OP open with the playerlist, and I formatted it that way.going through and giving thoughts on individuals. Apperently I just... missed you two.
Wuffles had a post or something that gave me funny feelings somewhere, but aside from that nothing.
You'd go in my Kinda Town section for questions and general play. I had a light townread on you earlier.
Curious: Why 'exactly two'? Is two being left off more relevent than some other number? Your wording here interests me.
What do you make of killjoy + DoTA both hopping on the vezok wagon? What do you think of them if vezok flips town? Flips scum?
Also can you explain your stance on Grape + vezok? Specifically, Grape is scumreading + pushing vezok, yet you have them both as scumleans. You think Grape's bussing vezok? Forgive me if you've already explained this.
I didn't 'hop on the vezok wagon'. I expressed willingness to lynch him just like I did recently. You're wording this like I just happened into this line of thought recently. You're not town. Vote Proph
Here's a new plan. Lynch Proph today. He's scum too. More than Vezok.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
proph: is probably already obvious that he's town but his early game was beautiful and I also really liked his posting around the time I replaced in. I kind of want to just lock him as town forever for his big catch up post. If I can't get caught up enough by deadline then I think I will just end up sheeping him since I trust his reads more than just about anyone on this plist including my own.
I don't think I said this?
The part where it says I trust your reads is a dead giveaway
Gosh. I was reading Silver's last post but didn't realise it came from silver. After reading half of it I thought I found another scum and checked the user only to note it's actually silver.
That post reeks of TMI. He knows both me and grape are town and he is making scenarios in how this could be possible instead of the other way around.
He didn't read grape's vote as bussing, he is rationalising it after the fact.
Anyway if silver flips scum, grape is pretty much confirmed town for me and if one of us (me or grape) the other should be conf town.
It might also point to both KJ and Dota being scum, but that's not as clear cut.
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@DBS I can tell you what it is. Frankly, though, I'm reluctant to do so at this stage, because:
1) you're the only one that seems concerned about finding out, and
2) because three doctors have already hard claimed and I don't think that it serves anyone's purpose to give the scums more info than they've already gotten.
I understand the concerns about it, but not telling us is more harmful if you're town. since when does town let someone live over softclaims? and would you blame us if we lynch a townie who ONLY softclaims? withholding information isn't in town's best interest.
but ok, I'll respect that (as annoying as it is). can you point out any lynch options, plus reasons on them? can you point out the posts that Proph has that indicates he is town?
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Dawn-So. In ZE Dawn just kept doing things and eventually I realized he just... wasn't scum. So here, I'm waiting for something similar. And it's not happening. I feel like it should be happening.
what are you waiting for to happen?
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey dawn, are you planning on doing anything other than defend my scumreads and throw shade at my townreads?
I don't remember what your scum/town reads are, so idk if I'm defending/shading any of them. who are they again? if you mean Vezok for scum, I don't think his approach towards claiming has been scummy so far. and if you remember, I was right about few things you disagreed on before, so I'd say our disagreement isn't necessarily a bad thing.
@Iso I knew you wouldn't like that characterization of it because it was a bit sassy, but that's what it reads like. You saw things that tied me, atog, and Vezok together. Silver disagreed with the reasons that tied atog to Vezok and me and pushed you on them. This led you to you thinking he was scum because you felt it was a ironclad reason. Is there something I'm missing? Because that's what the post you linked earlier reads like. My larger point is that what's the play for scum!Silver here? He's not trying to move you off Vezok or me. Just Atog with us. Which isn't a play I'd see him sticking his neck out for.
Fair enough on the wall. I'd like to hear thoughts from someone, someday. But walls like that usually get ignored.
No thoughts on wagoning Atog today?
Also I see no reason for you to offer to kill yourself with your role. Does not seem worth it at all.
* It started with me not being able to comprehend how Silver was unable to comprehend my angle. It read like feigned ignorance, and intentionally missing the point. It developed from there.
* I'm not worried about Atog.
* I literally said I'm no longer able to kill myself with my role, so...
Also Iso on the last pages has been really townie. I don't really see scum changing their opinions so quickly although Iso is a master scum player.
I'm a master scum player, which is why you thought you caught me so early in the game? Am I easily meta-able or not? You can't have your cake and eat it, vezok. What are you basing "Iso is a master scum player" on?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Admittedly, I hate being wrong, which is why it's hard for me to let go of an opinion once I've formed it, and I hate being convinced I'm wrong when I end up being right even more. But I'm trying to be better about it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If rhand is right about items being randomly distributed, vezoks preclaim behavior looks like "scum getting those bandages and being stoked to claim them"
@DBS I can tell you what it is. Frankly, though, I'm reluctant to do so at this stage, because:
1) you're the only one that seems concerned about finding out, and
2) because three doctors have already hard claimed and I don't think that it serves anyone's purpose to give the scums more info than they've already gotten.
I understand the concerns about it, but not telling us is more harmful if you're town. since when does town let someone live over softclaims? and would you blame us if we lynch a townie who ONLY softclaims? withholding information isn't in town's best interest.
but ok, I'll respect that (as annoying as it is). can you point out any lynch options, plus reasons on them? can you point out the posts that Proph has that indicates he is town?
Let me be clear:
I will fullclaim if it looks like people are actually willing to lynch me; but I'd really rather not.
Note that when I do full-claim, I will not be revealing the name or cost of using the item I have, however, only that I will not be able to use it many times before I put it up for auction for someone else to use. My other ability I will reveal if I catch anything with it.
In terms of reads, well, I'm not overly helpful in that respect. I've never been that good at reading scum motivations D1. My votes this game have been for individual scummy-seeming things, but I'm not actually great at putting 2 and 2 together.
I'm a lot better at reading town than I am at reading scum.
Right now, I dislike the way that tom and Cyan make statements without providing reasoning. It's frustrating that I am 100% sure that this is not a tell for either of them, because they have both made mafia careers on doing so. It makes them impossible to read.
I dislike the way that Dota, KJ, Atogaholic, and Kamikaze archon have fallen off during large parts of this game. Rhand and Proph not so much, because they make an effort to catch up and post content - proph just nails it way harder at least so far.
I also recall finding Kami's third doctor claim pretty sus at the time (I remember a game where there were like a million cops and scum Cyan figured it out really fast and "counterclaimed" the two cops that came out immediately. Threw me off all game. Lost to him that game.) but I'll go back and check that to see if I'm remembering it right.
Silver I don't buy as scum at this stage. He came after me when I ****ed up and caught myself in the unintentional lie, and stayed on me pretty hard (maybe tunneling a little?).
I'm leaning slightly town on DBS. Her (Her? right? I use he/him pronouns btw, despite the adorableness of my name) line of questions on me indicate that she's not sold either way on my alignment and is trying to find out more, which seems pretty townie. Although, she could also be a scum fishing for info on a powerful magic bag so that's why I'm only reading as slight town.
If rhand is right about items being randomly distributed, vezoks preclaim behavior looks like "scum getting those bandages and being stoked to claim them"
And then the rest of the claim was kinda weird...
I don't believe that items are randomly given. Iso has an item that makes a ton of sense with his role. I also have two items that give sanity. It just seems too convinient.
It seems like all roles were thought to start with their items.
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No its not in response, Dawn. I'm waiting for you to be town. My experience with you is it just kinda... happens.
hmmm ok.. I expect you to explain that read eventually. we only played 1 game together iirc, so I don't understand how you can 'pick up' what to look for so fast.
I will fullclaim if it looks like people are actually willing to lynch me; but I'd really rather not.
Note that when I do full-claim, I will not be revealing the name or cost of using the item I have, however, only that I will not be able to use it many times before I put it up for auction for someone else to use. My other ability I will reveal if I catch anything with it.
In terms of reads, well, I'm not overly helpful in that respect. I've never been that good at reading scum motivations D1. My votes this game have been for individual scummy-seeming things, but I'm not actually great at putting 2 and 2 together.
I'm a lot better at reading town than I am at reading scum.
Right now, I dislike the way that tom and Cyan make statements without providing reasoning. It's frustrating that I am 100% sure that this is not a tell for either of them, because they have both made mafia careers on doing so. It makes them impossible to read.
I dislike the way that Dota, KJ, Atogaholic, and Kamikaze archon have fallen off during large parts of this game. Rhand and Proph not so much, because they make an effort to catch up and post content - proph just nails it way harder at least so far.
I also recall finding Kami's third doctor claim pretty sus at the time (I remember a game where there were like a million cops and scum Cyan figured it out really fast and "counterclaimed" the two cops that came out immediately. Threw me off all game. Lost to him that game.) but I'll go back and check that to see if I'm remembering it right.
Silver I don't buy as scum at this stage. He came after me when I ****ed up and caught myself in the unintentional lie, and stayed on me pretty hard (maybe tunneling a little?).
I'm leaning slightly town on DBS. Her (Her? right? I use he/him pronouns btw, despite the adorableness of my name) line of questions on me indicate that she's not sold either way on my alignment and is trying to find out more, which seems pretty townie. Although, she could also be a scum fishing for info on a powerful magic bag so that's why I'm only reading as slight town.
1. sounds fair. looks like you're serious about it.
2. so it's a playstyle thing. got a better idea of you now.
3. thanks for the reads. not sure if I remember Kamikaze's doc claim much, so I'll go back and look at it. keeping in mind that you're better at finding town than scum, this should be helpful.
and before I take my leave...
still prefer the DoTA lynch. Killjoy/Atog are lurkers yeah, but I'm not as sure about them as I am about DoTA.
I don't like that Proph voted Killjoy for being 'a lurker' but switched to DoTA (with Killjoy as possible scumbud). what is the difference? going for the towncred?
Wuffles/Vezok are more like a gut read for me, and based off matching consistencies and/or convictions in approach + votes.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
It seems like all roles were thought to start with their items.
I thought the same thing. what's the point of having an appraiser or idk, checker of first owners, if items spawn at random. this is a flavor game too.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Then we have tom. He's being tom and tom is hard to read. He does similar things as both alignments and is just super tricky to read. I have him here just because I firmly believe that inconsistency on Wisp earlier and his reaction to it.
lol
*still down to lynch grape*
Then make it happen! Because you keep talking a big game on it, but not really doing anything to make it happen. Is that your only takeaway from my post?
Gosh. I was reading Silver's last post but didn't realise it came from silver. After reading half of it I thought I found another scum and checked the user only to note it's actually silver.
That post reeks of TMI. He knows both me and grape are town and he is making scenarios in how this could be possible instead of the other way around.
He didn't read grape's vote as bussing, he is rationalising it after the fact.
Anyway if silver flips scum, grape is pretty much confirmed town for me and if one of us (me or grape) the other should be conf town.
It might also point to both KJ and Dota being scum, but that's not as clear cut.
That makes no sense. The bold section specifically. My alignment should have zero impact on people reading you. After all I know it and I'm still scum reading you. Also Silver totally and consistently has been reading me as bussing you. Like he's wavered a bit recently in the post you're referring to, but his original read was my flip-flop was so abrupt that it must come from scum thinking a buddy slipped.
@DBS I can tell you what it is. Frankly, though, I'm reluctant to do so at this stage, because:
1) you're the only one that seems concerned about finding out, and
2) because three doctors have already hard claimed and I don't think that it serves anyone's purpose to give the scums more info than they've already gotten.
I understand the concerns about it, but not telling us is more harmful if you're town. since when does town let someone live over softclaims? and would you blame us if we lynch a townie who ONLY softclaims? withholding information isn't in town's best interest.
but ok, I'll respect that (as annoying as it is). can you point out any lynch options, plus reasons on them? can you point out the posts that Proph has that indicates he is town?
Stop role fishing please. Wuffles claiming without being wagoned is actively a bad idea. I know you've responded to this further later on but I still wanted to point out that no, he should not claim right now.
Also you can't seem to settle on a read for me. Moving me all over the place. What changed your mind in that hour and a half to drop me from solid town to neutral?
And as for Vezok being scum, for about the fifth time his meta dive on Iso is a literal joke. It puts the conclusion in front and uses really poor evidence to back it up. It was an reread of old games where he did some of the most egregious cherry picking I've ever seen. That's pretty much it. Like all of it. And I'm very confident.
@Iso that's fair on reading it as feigned ignorance. You two were completely talking past each other for a while there. My point is more that the team you built doesn't make sense. For Vezok and me to be bussing already and then Silver come in and bus us both, but only as buddies, and then draw the line and town read Atog who is our forth teammate and was tied into the whole fiasco conjures images of That'sABoldStrategyCotton.gif. Fair enough on not fearing Atog and not caring to run him up today.
Also I totally misread you before. Thought you had just said you couldn't kill yourself N1, not completely unable to.
@KJ talk to me about your read on me. It seems to have taken a strange jump in recent times that I can't follow.
@Wuffs: I mean, at least do it before tomorrow, please? I believe that's when our deadline is.
In light of the deadline, I'd like to be able to keep an eye on the thread, but my girlfriend's birthday is this weekend so it's extremely unlikely I'll be able to make it in here at some point.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso before you go - I just need to ask. Who do you think should drink the potion and who's been standoffish about not wanting to? I know you claimed you don't have enough money to buy it - did anyone else?
Actually, I never confirmed I didn't have enough money to buy it. I just said obtaining it might be difficult for me, opting to be coy about my reasons for stating such.
I'd like either Gemma or Killjoy to drink the potion. I almost always think Killjoy is scum and he's an easy mislynch as town, so having the clout of being confirmed town behind him would (probably) prevent him from getting mislynched, or ensure his lynch if he is scum. As for Gemma: Vaimes was questionable, and Cantrip was nonexistent. A little bit of confirmation in the way of that slot would be nice.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'd like for Shadow to drink it, personally. He's been lurking quite a bit and everyone tells me what an amazing mafia player he's become sooo wouldn't he be a good choice to confirm?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This post is not proofed or checked for errors because sleeeeeeep.
My thoughts on the real-time today, upon Iso request.
Proph's asked some really good questions of Iso around his scumread on silver. And that sir/mister thing I wouldn't even have noticed.
Iso admits MAYBE his vezok read is tunnelling a bit. I like the support he provided for his silver read - I don't agree, but he provided it in a townie way. (This is only my gut-read regarding silver btw)
Proph voices dislike of DotA's vezok bandwagon vote. Fair. I'd be very surprised if a player as sporadically active as Dota had any real reads on anyone, tbh.
Proph wants to vote lurkers. Yaaas. Hold lurkers accountable for not participating. We could have been over 2000 posts by now if they were. (but srsly, I hate lurkers and I bet at least one of them is scum).
Proph protests at grapefroots mention of his universal town read (nah i'm not universally town look at all these lurkers voting for me! lol!)
Iso dislikes Cyan because Cyan always scumreads Iso and then claims when he gets Iso lynched and Iso is scum that he can read Iso easily (I laughed when I saw this because LOL Cyan would totally be like that and super smug about it too! :D)
Proph references KJ and Dota's super flappy wagon joining votes on vezok as to why he is advocating for Lynch All Lurkers (I agree with this)
Grapfruit calls out proph for the evidence he provided to support protestations at assertions of universal town (fair enough imo) +town
Iso and proph say a bit more stuff that I have no opinion on.
DBS takes up my offer to ask me questions and as I mentioned before comes off a bit more of a town read because of it. She doesn't overreact to my saying I'm not going to fullclaim just because she asks, even though she's clearly a bit frustrated by my refusal to do so, and (I think?) takes my word for it.
@Tom - what even is #1322...I don't...huh?
WHOA man Killjoy's 1324 -
Killjoy votes Proph...though to be fair, he wasn't on the vezok wagon. I'll have to have another look at this tomorrow.
For tomorrow, I'd like everyone's opinions on the auctionhouse. Are we happy with the state of the current item purchases?
My standpoint is that number 32 is scum trying for a free daykill.
I'm suspicious of number 2 for wanting that puzzle box so bad - as I can't really see the use for it for anything non-scummy.
Number 77 wants that looking glass REAL BAD. I don't quite know why (it doesn't feel like an item worth that price). And number 77 currently is buying the potion as well.
Stop role fishing please. Wuffles claiming without being wagoned is actively a bad idea. I know you've responded to this further later on but I still wanted to point out that no, he should not claim right now.
Also you can't seem to settle on a read for me. Moving me all over the place. What changed your mind in that hour and a half to drop me from solid town to neutral?
And as for Vezok being scum, for about the fifth time his meta dive on Iso is a literal joke. It puts the conclusion in front and uses really poor evidence to back it up. It was an reread of old games where he did some of the most egregious cherry picking I've ever seen. That's pretty much it. Like all of it. And I'm very confident.
1. it's not rolefishing. he was wagoned, he did softclaim under pressure, and he's still considered an option (by others and me). if town is fine with softclaiming, then what happened in ZE was a joke (wagoning me for softclaiming).
2. you're that unsettling. I gave it some thought and I'd rather be safe than sorry.
3. it would be better if you compiled your case on Vezok, rather than pointing to this or that post. it's hard to keep track of things as it is.
if that is your only reason though, then sorry but I don't agree with it: cherry-picking isn't enough to scumread someone.
I see. Silver is the scumread I disagreed with. I'm actually not against the idea of lynching him, since I don't have a good idea of that slot other than that it was pushed unreasonably by Grape. have a note somewhere that Grape could be scum with Yurkin's slot cuz it received the least attention in the Vezok/Yurkin/Killjoy talk. and it was left unexplained. (disclaimer: it's just my observations)
hmmm.. though I'm also not sure Silver is scum. and you were wrong before. so I'm not sure how sure I should be about this.. backreading time I guess.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
For tomorrow, I'd like everyone's opinions on the auctionhouse. Are we happy with the state of the current item purchases?
My standpoint is that number 32 is scum trying for a free daykill.
I'm suspicious of number 2 for wanting that puzzle box so bad - as I can't really see the use for it for anything non-scummy.
Number 77 wants that looking glass REAL BAD. I don't quite know why (it doesn't feel like an item worth that price). And number 77 currently is buying the potion as well.
WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS. TODAY.
(for reasons, I've decided to pass on sleep for the day lol. so I'm around to discuss if you want.)
I'm not sure I like the gun purchase, but it shouldn't be a loss for us if scum wins and dares use it - more info/flips for us to work with. the others don't seem important to me, except the Potion of Truth. we are the majority and have plenty of info to work with.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
So the auction thread ends right when we Lynch someone right? I have some useful observations but am afraid to reveal too much. My concern is that there is an item thief among the scum. So if I can even afford to bid on the Tommy Gun at this point and win it, whoever that thief is can just target me and steal it. With so much protection floating around I'm feeling very comfortable about surviving the night, but worst case scenario someone steals the gun. I guess then they would have to publicly announce they have it when they shoot it off.
an item thief sure sounds like a good counterbalance to AH claiming. so yeah, I think it's safe to say it is in play (and that Vezok's claim is legit).
We should also consider the possibility that there are many roles out there that require certain items to win or need certain items destroyed.
For this reason, I would suggest that nobody claim the names of the items they have that aren't already known publicly on the thread.
neutral/tpr wincons? not sure there would be any, but it's good to point out. I'm really not sure what the use of an item-buster is for, but there must be a reason. hmmm...
I am the doctor. The bandages dovetail nicely with my own profession and skills. Thus I believe vezok. Thus my comment on tools vs. professions. Iso is lying.
so here's the doc claim. would it be strange to say I believe all 3 claims? looks like everyone misread their role lol I'm glad my role is nothing fancy/complicated this time
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
For tomorrow, I'd like everyone's opinions on the auctionhouse. Are we happy with the state of the current item purchases?
My standpoint is that number 32 is scum trying for a free daykill.
I'm suspicious of number 2 for wanting that puzzle box so bad - as I can't really see the use for it for anything non-scummy.
Number 77 wants that looking glass REAL BAD. I don't quite know why (it doesn't feel like an item worth that price). And number 77 currently is buying the potion as well.
WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS. TODAY.
How do you plan on discussing this without revealing auction numbers? Your first standpoint is incorrect.
I think the only item that should be discussed is the potion of truth. However if I'm understanding correctly, it can be traded later on.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@DBS wuffles never got to claim range and there isn't enough to put him there now and he wasn't when he softed. He never should have softed, but now that he it doesn't mean he should full claim now just because you are still suspicious. People should not give him any town cred for it, but I don't want him to claim now at all. Also I am aware of what happened. It doesn't mean you're not role fishing. You just think it's justified. Also you didn't just get wagoned for softing. You got wagoned for softing and then changing your role about 3 times. And people did try to wagon wuffles for softing. I'm not opposed to wagoning him for it now. But I don't want to put the claim ahead of the wagon or allow blatant (if understandable) rolefishing to happen.
On atog vs Dota I don't have strong feelings. I mentioned it to Iso because he suspects atog. It's weird to me that he resisted that wagon. I'd much rather lynch KJ than either of those two if we lynch a lurker. Also I already told you that in 1328 which is a post I know you read because you answered my other question in it...
I want to know why I'm unsettling. How do you go from thinking I'm scum, to thinking I'm town, to neutral all without much explanation. Show your work.
I'm not going to compile anything. I'm awful at formating, I hate finding links, and answering each time is easier for me. On the case itself cherry picking isn't inherently scummy (it kind of is, but not this scummy on it's own) but have you read his case? I don't actually believe you remember it and relying on his other behavior to judge him.
@Wuffles so your recap of the real timing is not inspiring in it's towniness... A lot of it is what the kids call iioa (information instead of analysis) and it's nit a great look.
Also don't love your take on the items. I don't think it's worth trying to organize without forcing claims so I just want to let the cards fall where they may. If the tommy gun shoots someone super townie then sure we mass claim but if scum buy it and shoot into the PoE then it's not a wholly different reality to town using it. Disagree with you on puzzle box being mostly useful for scum as well.
Agree that 77 probably shouldn't buy the potion but I can't really outbid them.
Also Vote: Wuffles
Also happy voting KJ or open wolf Vezok. Like Vezok's Iso meta dive is openly howling. Like Jester levels of scummy.
On the tommy gun the only danger is scum holding onto it, but we can agaim thwart that with a mass claim. I'm thinking back to Wildfire in disinheritence and he cleared out the PoE and then killed a doc. At the cost of outing himself and that kind of getting a buddy (Iso) lynched by association. The more I think about it the less I'm worried about whose hands it falls into as long as they shoot tomorrow.
@dbs: Come vote silver. Me and Iso and grape all think that slot is scum. Unless you think we are acum that decided to bus each other and almost nobody else then at least one of us most have good reasons for suspecting silver.
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@DBS wuffles never got to claim range and there isn't enough to put him there now and he wasn't when he softed. He never should have softed, but now that he it doesn't mean he should full claim now just because you are still suspicious. People should not give him any town cred for it, but I don't want him to claim now at all. Also I am aware of what happened. It doesn't mean you're not role fishing. You just think it's justified. Also you didn't just get wagoned for softing. You got wagoned for softing and then changing your role about 3 times. And people did try to wagon wuffles for softing. I'm not opposed to wagoning him for it now. But I don't want to put the claim ahead of the wagon or allow blatant (if understandable) rolefishing to happen.
On atog vs Dota I don't have strong feelings. I mentioned it to Iso because he suspects atog. It's weird to me that he resisted that wagon. I'd much rather lynch KJ than either of those two if we lynch a lurker. Also I already told you that in 1328 which is a post I know you read because you answered my other question in it...
I want to know why I'm unsettling. How do you go from thinking I'm scum, to thinking I'm town, to neutral all without much explanation. Show your work.
I'm not going to compile anything. I'm awful at formating, I hate finding links, and answering each time is easier for me. On the case itself cherry picking isn't inherently scummy (it kind of is, but not this scummy on it's own) but have you read his case? I don't actually believe you remember it and relying on his other behavior to judge him.
1. then please explain to me why Vezok claimed when he wasn't even close to claim range, or Iso, yet you have not voted for them. Iso retracted his CC in this game and you don't find that 'unacceptable'? it looks like you're trying to ignore my reasons to your questions.
2. if you didn't have strong feelings for either, then why did you suggest Atog when we already had 1 wagon going on DoTA (who was already a lurker option established)?
3. then you're just making more mud for us to waddle through. why don't you slow down on the posting so we can get a coherent understanding of your reads, rather than expecting us to dig for it? I've read Vezok's case, but it is more of an assumption + difference in opinion rather than scum shading.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
@dbs: Come vote silver. Me and Iso and grape all think that slot is scum. Unless you think we are acum that decided to bus each other and almost nobody else then at least one of us most have good reasons for suspecting silver.
hmm.. I recall Grape scumreading that slot before, not sure if he's still scumreading it now. but since I can agree with this..
Vote: Silvercrys3467
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Be grateful, always."
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Be grateful, always."
gonna change Grape to the null/unsure category. and if I were reading myself, I would slot myself in there too.
Be grateful, always."
*still down to lynch grape*
Got it
1) you're the only one that seems concerned about finding out, and
2) because three doctors have already hard claimed and I don't think that it serves anyone's purpose to give the scums more info than they've already gotten.
Wuffles had a post or something that gave me funny feelings somewhere, but aside from that nothing.
You'd go in my Kinda Town section for questions and general play. I had a light townread on you earlier.
Curious: Why 'exactly two'? Is two being left off more relevent than some other number? Your wording here interests me.
I didn't 'hop on the vezok wagon'. I expressed willingness to lynch him just like I did recently. You're wording this like I just happened into this line of thought recently. You're not town. Vote Proph
Here's a new plan. Lynch Proph today. He's scum too. More than Vezok.
The part where it says I trust your reads is a dead giveaway
That post reeks of TMI. He knows both me and grape are town and he is making scenarios in how this could be possible instead of the other way around.
He didn't read grape's vote as bussing, he is rationalising it after the fact.
Anyway if silver flips scum, grape is pretty much confirmed town for me and if one of us (me or grape) the other should be conf town.
It might also point to both KJ and Dota being scum, but that's not as clear cut.
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On atog Iso actively thinks he's scum but isn't trying to lynch him today. That's why I asked.
He's generally looked town to me but I got some [powerwolfing with grape] pings
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but ok, I'll respect that (as annoying as it is). can you point out any lynch options, plus reasons on them? can you point out the posts that Proph has that indicates he is town?
Be grateful, always."
Nice open door
So that's a thing
Be grateful, always."
Also I'm getting scum pings from DBS.
Be grateful, always."
I'm not reading dawn day 1
Be grateful, always."
Probably only notable because there's a decent amount of unalignments in my scumreads and nulls
@Tom I'll look into getting something written up at the latest after work tomorrow. It'll be close to deadline but that's what needs to happen.
Name some times?
* It started with me not being able to comprehend how Silver was unable to comprehend my angle. It read like feigned ignorance, and intentionally missing the point. It developed from there.
* I'm not worried about Atog.
* I literally said I'm no longer able to kill myself with my role, so...
Thoughts on the past few pages?
I'm a master scum player, which is why you thought you caught me so early in the game? Am I easily meta-able or not? You can't have your cake and eat it, vezok. What are you basing "Iso is a master scum player" on?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And then the rest of the claim was kinda weird...
Let me be clear:
I will fullclaim if it looks like people are actually willing to lynch me; but I'd really rather not.
Note that when I do full-claim, I will not be revealing the name or cost of using the item I have, however, only that I will not be able to use it many times before I put it up for auction for someone else to use. My other ability I will reveal if I catch anything with it.
In terms of reads, well, I'm not overly helpful in that respect. I've never been that good at reading scum motivations D1. My votes this game have been for individual scummy-seeming things, but I'm not actually great at putting 2 and 2 together.
I'm a lot better at reading town than I am at reading scum.
Right now, I dislike the way that tom and Cyan make statements without providing reasoning. It's frustrating that I am 100% sure that this is not a tell for either of them, because they have both made mafia careers on doing so. It makes them impossible to read.
I dislike the way that Dota, KJ, Atogaholic, and Kamikaze archon have fallen off during large parts of this game. Rhand and Proph not so much, because they make an effort to catch up and post content - proph just nails it way harder at least so far.
I also recall finding Kami's third doctor claim pretty sus at the time (I remember a game where there were like a million cops and scum Cyan figured it out really fast and "counterclaimed" the two cops that came out immediately. Threw me off all game. Lost to him that game.) but I'll go back and check that to see if I'm remembering it right.
Silver I don't buy as scum at this stage. He came after me when I ****ed up and caught myself in the unintentional lie, and stayed on me pretty hard (maybe tunneling a little?).
I'm leaning slightly town on DBS. Her (Her? right? I use he/him pronouns btw, despite the adorableness of my name) line of questions on me indicate that she's not sold either way on my alignment and is trying to find out more, which seems pretty townie. Although, she could also be a scum fishing for info on a powerful magic bag so that's why I'm only reading as slight town.
I don't believe that items are randomly given. Iso has an item that makes a ton of sense with his role. I also have two items that give sanity. It just seems too convinient.
It seems like all roles were thought to start with their items.
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1. sounds fair. looks like you're serious about it.
2. so it's a playstyle thing. got a better idea of you now.
3. thanks for the reads. not sure if I remember Kamikaze's doc claim much, so I'll go back and look at it. keeping in mind that you're better at finding town than scum, this should be helpful.
and before I take my leave...
still prefer the DoTA lynch. Killjoy/Atog are lurkers yeah, but I'm not as sure about them as I am about DoTA.
I don't like that Proph voted Killjoy for being 'a lurker' but switched to DoTA (with Killjoy as possible scumbud). what is the difference? going for the towncred?
Wuffles/Vezok are more like a gut read for me, and based off matching consistencies and/or convictions in approach + votes.
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Then make it happen! Because you keep talking a big game on it, but not really doing anything to make it happen. Is that your only takeaway from my post?
That makes no sense. The bold section specifically. My alignment should have zero impact on people reading you. After all I know it and I'm still scum reading you. Also Silver totally and consistently has been reading me as bussing you. Like he's wavered a bit recently in the post you're referring to, but his original read was my flip-flop was so abrupt that it must come from scum thinking a buddy slipped.
Stop role fishing please. Wuffles claiming without being wagoned is actively a bad idea. I know you've responded to this further later on but I still wanted to point out that no, he should not claim right now.
Also you can't seem to settle on a read for me. Moving me all over the place. What changed your mind in that hour and a half to drop me from solid town to neutral?
And as for Vezok being scum, for about the fifth time his meta dive on Iso is a literal joke. It puts the conclusion in front and uses really poor evidence to back it up. It was an reread of old games where he did some of the most egregious cherry picking I've ever seen. That's pretty much it. Like all of it. And I'm very confident.
@Iso that's fair on reading it as feigned ignorance. You two were completely talking past each other for a while there. My point is more that the team you built doesn't make sense. For Vezok and me to be bussing already and then Silver come in and bus us both, but only as buddies, and then draw the line and town read Atog who is our forth teammate and was tied into the whole fiasco conjures images of That'sABoldStrategyCotton.gif. Fair enough on not fearing Atog and not caring to run him up today.
Also I totally misread you before. Thought you had just said you couldn't kill yourself N1, not completely unable to.
@KJ talk to me about your read on me. It seems to have taken a strange jump in recent times that I can't follow.
@Wuffs: I mean, at least do it before tomorrow, please? I believe that's when our deadline is.
In light of the deadline, I'd like to be able to keep an eye on the thread, but my girlfriend's birthday is this weekend so it's extremely unlikely I'll be able to make it in here at some point.
Do me proud, boys, and lynch Silver.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'd like either Gemma or Killjoy to drink the potion. I almost always think Killjoy is scum and he's an easy mislynch as town, so having the clout of being confirmed town behind him would (probably) prevent him from getting mislynched, or ensure his lynch if he is scum. As for Gemma: Vaimes was questionable, and Cantrip was nonexistent. A little bit of confirmation in the way of that slot would be nice.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My thoughts on the real-time today, upon Iso request.
Proph's asked some really good questions of Iso around his scumread on silver. And that sir/mister thing I wouldn't even have noticed.
Iso admits MAYBE his vezok read is tunnelling a bit. I like the support he provided for his silver read - I don't agree, but he provided it in a townie way. (This is only my gut-read regarding silver btw)
Proph voices dislike of DotA's vezok bandwagon vote. Fair. I'd be very surprised if a player as sporadically active as Dota had any real reads on anyone, tbh.
Proph wants to vote lurkers. Yaaas. Hold lurkers accountable for not participating. We could have been over 2000 posts by now if they were. (but srsly, I hate lurkers and I bet at least one of them is scum).
Proph protests at grapefroots mention of his universal town read (nah i'm not universally town look at all these lurkers voting for me! lol!)
Iso dislikes Cyan because Cyan always scumreads Iso and then claims when he gets Iso lynched and Iso is scum that he can read Iso easily (I laughed when I saw this because LOL Cyan would totally be like that and super smug about it too! :D)
Proph references KJ and Dota's super flappy wagon joining votes on vezok as to why he is advocating for Lynch All Lurkers (I agree with this)
Grapfruit calls out proph for the evidence he provided to support protestations at assertions of universal town (fair enough imo) +town
Iso and proph say a bit more stuff that I have no opinion on.
DBS takes up my offer to ask me questions and as I mentioned before comes off a bit more of a town read because of it. She doesn't overreact to my saying I'm not going to fullclaim just because she asks, even though she's clearly a bit frustrated by my refusal to do so, and (I think?) takes my word for it.
@Tom - what even is #1322...I don't...huh?
WHOA man Killjoy's 1324 -
Killjoy votes Proph...though to be fair, he wasn't on the vezok wagon. I'll have to have another look at this tomorrow.
My standpoint is that number 32 is scum trying for a free daykill.
I'm suspicious of number 2 for wanting that puzzle box so bad - as I can't really see the use for it for anything non-scummy.
Number 77 wants that looking glass REAL BAD. I don't quite know why (it doesn't feel like an item worth that price). And number 77 currently is buying the potion as well.
WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS. TODAY.
1. it's not rolefishing. he was wagoned, he did softclaim under pressure, and he's still considered an option (by others and me). if town is fine with softclaiming, then what happened in ZE was a joke (wagoning me for softclaiming).
2. you're that unsettling. I gave it some thought and I'd rather be safe than sorry.
3. it would be better if you compiled your case on Vezok, rather than pointing to this or that post. it's hard to keep track of things as it is.
if that is your only reason though, then sorry but I don't agree with it: cherry-picking isn't enough to scumread someone.
also, where's the case on Atog vs DoTA?
I see. Silver is the scumread I disagreed with. I'm actually not against the idea of lynching him, since I don't have a good idea of that slot other than that it was pushed unreasonably by Grape. have a note somewhere that Grape could be scum with Yurkin's slot cuz it received the least attention in the Vezok/Yurkin/Killjoy talk. and it was left unexplained. (disclaimer: it's just my observations)
hmmm.. though I'm also not sure Silver is scum. and you were wrong before. so I'm not sure how sure I should be about this.. backreading time I guess.
Be grateful, always."
I'm not sure I like the gun purchase, but it shouldn't be a loss for us if scum wins and dares use it - more info/flips for us to work with. the others don't seem important to me, except the Potion of Truth. we are the majority and have plenty of info to work with.
Be grateful, always."
neutral/tpr wincons? not sure there would be any, but it's good to point out. I'm really not sure what the use of an item-buster is for, but there must be a reason. hmmm...
so here's the doc claim. would it be strange to say I believe all 3 claims? looks like everyone misread their role lol
I'm glad my role is nothing fancy/complicated this timeBe grateful, always."
I think the only item that should be discussed is the potion of truth. However if I'm understanding correctly, it can be traded later on.
On atog vs Dota I don't have strong feelings. I mentioned it to Iso because he suspects atog. It's weird to me that he resisted that wagon. I'd much rather lynch KJ than either of those two if we lynch a lurker. Also I already told you that in 1328 which is a post I know you read because you answered my other question in it...
I want to know why I'm unsettling. How do you go from thinking I'm scum, to thinking I'm town, to neutral all without much explanation. Show your work.
I'm not going to compile anything. I'm awful at formating, I hate finding links, and answering each time is easier for me. On the case itself cherry picking isn't inherently scummy (it kind of is, but not this scummy on it's own) but have you read his case? I don't actually believe you remember it and relying on his other behavior to judge him.
@Wuffles so your recap of the real timing is not inspiring in it's towniness... A lot of it is what the kids call iioa (information instead of analysis) and it's nit a great look.
Also don't love your take on the items. I don't think it's worth trying to organize without forcing claims so I just want to let the cards fall where they may. If the tommy gun shoots someone super townie then sure we mass claim but if scum buy it and shoot into the PoE then it's not a wholly different reality to town using it. Disagree with you on puzzle box being mostly useful for scum as well.
Agree that 77 probably shouldn't buy the potion but I can't really outbid them.
Also Vote: Wuffles
Also happy voting KJ or open wolf Vezok. Like Vezok's Iso meta dive is openly howling. Like Jester levels of scummy.
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Check out the Shop Thread
1. then please explain to me why Vezok claimed when he wasn't even close to claim range, or Iso, yet you have not voted for them. Iso retracted his CC in this game and you don't find that 'unacceptable'? it looks like you're trying to ignore my reasons to your questions.
2. if you didn't have strong feelings for either, then why did you suggest Atog when we already had 1 wagon going on DoTA (who was already a lurker option established)?
3. then you're just making more mud for us to waddle through. why don't you slow down on the posting so we can get a coherent understanding of your reads, rather than expecting us to dig for it? I've read Vezok's case, but it is more of an assumption + difference in opinion rather than scum shading.
Be grateful, always."
Vote: Silvercrys3467
Be grateful, always."