@Dawning: Zero Escape was not a game I’d consider to be typical for me or my scum game, just FYI.
For ruma, does he not troll as scum?
And you really don’t have a third player you think has been townie? Like, give me a low confidence read, but give me something.I kind of think Mikey should claim, the good feelings I had for him earlier are just gone.
@cantrip: I have played with every other player except Mikey, though I wouldn’t say that’s the relevant info to why I say “in a vacuum”. The phrase is more of a qualifier I use to denote “average play indicator”. Basically “ignoring any specific player meta, this action pings me as a townie action”. Hence why I asked for his background.
That makes a bit more sense. Thanks.
Quote from Shadow »
WRT Osie, Two takes it Mafia.
That adds a second reason to read that game. Not sure I'll have time to do so, but if I find the time, I will.
Quote from Shadow »
Actually talk to me about Mikey, if you ignore Anak’s push on him, what’s your read; still holding true? (I’m assuming that’s a factor)
It's a factor, but a minor one. I'm getting town vibes from Mikey because he seems to be comfortable just putting thoughts out there and running with them. He's not trying to make friends. He's not pushing an agenda, and he's having some fun. I like that in 59 he remembered that he had similar thoughts, went back and confirmed, then used that to reinforce his reads. It *could* be contrived, but it doesn't feel like it is. 64 and 70 are good pushes for townclearing (although if Anak really is scum, Mikey is a bit more likely to be scum). I like that he's encouraging discussion.
On the flip side, I *don't* like that he tends to start out vague and only gets down to specifics when questioned. I liked his "stereo-board" analogy, but I would like him to use examples of what "town sounds" Tom made in response. He sorta did that in his recent response to me when I asked about Anak, but he still didn't show any specifics.
1) Can you explain further how Anak's questions to Tom make Anak town?
I consider it a small scale 1v1, anak with tom. Anak's questions are phrased in such a way that answering them is beneficial for both anak and tom. I really can't explain it all that well but it's something that consistently looks good to me. Anak's role in the exchange between the two of them is to force tom to think about things. That's towny behavior. You're forcing activity without saying all boringlike "we need moar activityy".
That helps me see what you're talking about, but can you point to any of Anak's questions and show how what he's doing is "beneficial for both anak and tom"?
Quote from Mikey »
2) I asked you two questions in 131, but I only remember seeing a response to one? Why would you "hate" finding something that you think makes a player town (in this case, Osie's use of Tennant gifs)?
cause it's dumb
Why? I know that I *love* finding something that strongly indicates another player is Town because it aids PoE. What's dumb about it?
Quote from Mikey »
3) I re-read 109 and I'm not sure I understand what you're saying regarding being afraid to declare something NAI; can you clarify?
earlier I had mentioned how you lot declare things NAI way too much- it had the unfortunate side effect of making me afraid to declare something NAI because I just got after yall for it.
Got it. Thanks.
Quote from Mikey »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
@Tom: Come join me in lynching Anak; it'll be fun seeing scum nitpicking backfire.
is nitpickiness like that something you consider scummy in general or is it case by case
I take it case by case. I've certainly bulldogged a nitpick as town in the past, but I feel like town, usually, are more willing to take a step back and reassess things like that. Scum love finding something they feel is "black and white" and latching onto it as something they can safely park themselves on for the duration.
Quote from Mikey »
some questions back at you cantrip what are your thoughts on osie both this game and in general? I guess that could technically be one question
Ok, so, Osie, here's your progression on Vezok from what I see:
49: "Vezok is something. Not too worried here yet."
80: "All of Vezok's posts are sleazy." And you vote him. No examples, just that you don't like his #75.
202: You feel strongly enough about Vezok that you are questioning Mikey's wagon.
The other two voters (BlueSky and Ruma) you've recently indicated you think are town, so I figured it had to be Vezok, but I don't see ANY reasoning behind your suspicion of him, yet you feel "strongly" that there's scum on Mikey's wagon.
If I'm missing something you posted about why you suspect Vezok, please point me to it. Otherwise, I'm going to need you to go into detail as to why you suspect Vezok strongly enough to potentially townclear Mikey.
Ok, so, Osie, here's your progression on Vezok from what I see:
49: "Vezok is something. Not too worried here yet."
80: "All of Vezok's posts are sleazy." And you vote him. No examples, just that you don't like his #75.
202: You feel strongly enough about Vezok that you are questioning Mikey's wagon.
The other two voters (BlueSky and Ruma) you've recently indicated you think are town, so I figured it had to be Vezok, but I don't see ANY reasoning behind your suspicion of him, yet you feel "strongly" that there's scum on Mikey's wagon.
If I'm missing something you posted about why you suspect Vezok, please point me to it. Otherwise, I'm going to need you to go into detail as to why you suspect Vezok strongly enough to potentially townclear Mikey.
Where did I say I thought Dawning was townie? Because that's never been the case.
I think you're taking "townfeels" a little too strong. He was a scumread, he got pushed to a scumlean or maybe neutral at best.
2nd page I didn't like any of the posts that Vezok had made so far.
3rd page Vezok votes Tom with shoddy reasoning.
I'm not totally convinced on his backdown being organic.
He then takes a wine question and draws hard conclusions from it.
Then he takes the easy vote on Mikey.
And not much real meat to his posts so far...
Then an unvote based on what? 1 post? The heck? Like I kinda get a bit out of the other stuff but there wasn't real serious pressure at L-3, so the whole "responding well to pressure" is SUPER reachy. Vezok is crazy scummy here.
Where did I say I thought Dawning was townie? Because that's never been the case.
49 you say she could go either way. 97 you mention her. 114 you say she's not necessarily scum but needs to lurk less. 168 you seem to banter playfully with her (not seeing whether you think she's town or scum there). 173 you fencesit on her alignment, saying she normally posts more, but that that doesn't mean much. 175 you say she sounds like herself and you maybe have her as a scumlean.
Huh, I thought you had a "townlean" post on her, as well. Still, you haven't really chimed in on her, almost entirely fencesitting.
Quote from Osie »
2nd page I didn't like any of the posts that Vezok had made so far.
3rd page Vezok votes Tom with shoddy reasoning.
I'm not totally convinced on his backdown being organic.
He then takes a wine question and draws hard conclusions from it.
Then he takes the easy vote on Mikey.
And not much real meat to his posts so far...
Then an unvote based on what? 1 post? The heck? Like I kinda get a bit out of the other stuff but there wasn't real serious pressure at L-3, so the whole "responding well to pressure" is SUPER reachy. Vezok is crazy scummy here.
I like that you have reasons, but even more I like your tone of righteous indignation. This response makes me feel better about you again. Thanks.
I don't know that I agree that Vezok's votes have been bad. That said...
#169 - Joking post with no regards for why people are voting for him.
#176 - Another humorous analogy that makes absolutely no sense and looks like disengaged town.
#196 - Genuinely scumhunting and ignored the bull***** votes. I feel like scum Mikey would at least acknoledge the fact that his wagon is only voting him for dumb reasons.
#203 - Good read progression. I think scum would rather throw mud at most of his wagon, especially after the bull***** votes, but he sticks with his guns.
I'm not convinced that mikey is town, but he is back to the null category until I see more. I can see him pulling off this series of posts as scum, but I mostly believe they come from town right now.
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Mikey feels too easy right now for either alignment to "post a read on" in either direction. I'm inclined to believe him town, though. He's not agenda driven. 170 and 176 could be read badly, but he's been mostly townie, and I don't think he's trying to self-preserve. If this was a setup with some kind of death-trigger roles, I'd be convinced he was one, but since it isn't, he's probably just town.
Vezok is still gross. Waffling, easy pushes, and only just enough effort. I have seen no reason to de-tunnel there.
#169 - Joking post with no regards for why people are voting for him.
#176 - Another humorous analogy that makes absolutely no sense and looks like disengaged town.
#196 - Genuinely scumhunting and ignored the bull***** votes. I feel like scum Mikey would at least acknoledge the fact that his wagon is only voting him for dumb reasons.
#203 - Good read progression. I think scum would rather throw mud at most of his wagon, especially after the bull***** votes, but he sticks with his guns.
I'm not convinced that mikey is town, but he is back to the null category until I see more. I can see him pulling off this series of posts as scum, but I mostly believe they come from town right now.
50 posts ago you said “More votes on Mikey please” yet now you actively think the votes on him were bull? Do you think your vote on him was bad too?
#169 - Joking post with no regards for why people are voting for him.
#176 - Another humorous analogy that makes absolutely no sense and looks like disengaged town.
#196 - Genuinely scumhunting and ignored the bull***** votes. I feel like scum Mikey would at least acknoledge the fact that his wagon is only voting him for dumb reasons.
#203 - Good read progression. I think scum would rather throw mud at most of his wagon, especially after the bull***** votes, but he sticks with his guns.
I'm not convinced that mikey is town, but he is back to the null category until I see more. I can see him pulling off this series of posts as scum, but I mostly believe they come from town right now.
1) Are you saying disengagement is more likely to come from town than scum? If so, why do you feel that way?
2) Why did you respond to Shadow with specifics on why you think Mikey's town, but blew me off when I asked why you are voting for Osie? Do I have to be explicit? What are the reasons that make you think Osie is scum?
Mikey feels too easy right now for either alignment to "post a read on" in either direction. I'm inclined to believe him town, though. He's not agenda driven. 170 and 176 could be read badly, but he's been mostly townie, and I don't think he's trying to self-preserve. If this was a setup with some kind of death-trigger roles, I'd be convinced he was one, but since it isn't, he's probably just town.
Vezok is still gross. Waffling, easy pushes, and only just enough effort. I have seen no reason to de-tunnel there.
I have seen this a couple times, I think Cantrip said it too, but explain please what agenda driven means, and why being so makes someone scummy.
Mikey feels too easy right now for either alignment to "post a read on" in either direction. I'm inclined to believe him town, though. He's not agenda driven. 170 and 176 could be read badly, but he's been mostly townie, and I don't think he's trying to self-preserve. If this was a setup with some kind of death-trigger roles, I'd be convinced he was one, but since it isn't, he's probably just town.
Vezok is still gross. Waffling, easy pushes, and only just enough effort. I have seen no reason to de-tunnel there.
I have seen this a couple times, I think Cantrip said it too, but explain please what agenda driven means, and why being so makes someone scummy.
Agenda-driven means that they're posts appear to be motivated off of an agenda beyond scum-hunting.
Okay, read these pages. It seems most of the action will happen while I'm asleep, while I'm around for only slight interactivity. That's okay.
#201: There's no precedent of me being scum recently on MAL, shadow. I came back from a hiatus recently and only got town roles over there.
#202: There's no point declaring reads based upon wagons. Especially as there are no L1 wagons. I do understand where this is coming from though.
#203: Are you ever going to answer my questions? I also believe you said you were gonna tunnel, earlier? @Emcee_Mikey : What happened to this? Where is the promised pressure you were keen to say you'll apply on me? #110 : You seem to have either forgotten about this, or backed out of it. Why?
#204: @Cantripmancer Mikey also hasn't answered all the questions directed at him.
#205: Not relevant atm.
#206: Easy question to answer, why?
#207: Hmm...
#208: Town attitude, is trying to understand osie? I think?
#209: Not relevant I think
#210: I'm sure he will. I hope.
#211: I agree with Osie's thought process here.
#212: What the heck is this? Being disengaged from pressure is not towny. That's scummy af.
#213: So, omgus?
#214: Osie called it too.
#215: Okay then. Saved to mind.
#216: Elaborate. Don't be vague.
#217: N/A
#218: Seems like a Shadowy thing to do.
#219: Hmmm...
#220: This is logically flawed. How is #196 an argument for Mikey? 196 is my post? @vezopiraka Once again, disengagement is a scumlean, not a townlean. Scum have more knowledge, so they have less reason to be flustered when they are voted upon.
#221: Kay. Points still stand.
#222: Self-preservation isn't really an alignment indicator. And there's no need to self-preserve where he was. Not sure I agree with your reasoning here.
#223: I Agree, I'd like to know too.
#224: +1 townie brownie.
Mmmm, that was fun. So, @Emcee_Mikey, you said you were going to tunnel me all day? What happened to this. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of you following through with this, as the only thing you've done is say you think I am scummy. If you're going to do this, pressure me. Ask questions. Your tunnelling feels useless.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
tom reads to me as slightly uncertain of himself around osie
I want to reflect on this some more because it could be important. Tom tiptoed around osie earlier and this whole interaction is strange to me. Like he forced himself to give a read on osie. I want to say this is related to them knowing each other's playstyles on some level rather than it being w/w but if either of them flips scum I think they're scum with each other. Unlikely though.
I guess I don't have an issue with osi's reads amounting to nothing because it's too early for strong reads anyway
Basically it's definitely weird that he would even try to make that sort of post in the first 50 posts (and ought to know that I don't even say anything AI most day 1s) but what came out when he did was...
I don't want to say anything positive about it really but I could see town osi making it
So you acknowledge it's too easy to have reads like that, it's really weird that he would try, and don't have anything positive to say about it. But it's town?
Answer me this then, if he is town, what's the point of doing that?
"Tom, you said something weird. I'm going to take what you said and ask questions to allow you to rephrase what you said in a way that looks better and is much more helpful for the rest of town."
I apologise for my absence. I am a little more comfortable now. I had ear surgery and have been taking prescription painkillers which are a little strong. Didn't want to participate in a state where I was more likely to ruin the game than contribute. (So, rawr Osie).
oh you were lying? :^)
On the topic of reads, Osie is never going to read me properly as they have a bias against me (A toxic personality over on MAL hehe). The problem with such an early read list, is that it can be either scum or town-lean. Thus, NAI. There is the fact that osie did not vote when he made his reads, and seemed like he was justifying the RVS on Tom. Often scum try and portray RVS as an actual read. Keep this in mind.
I don't like this part and already mentioned it and osie already commented on it.
Anak's vote on Osie feels fluid, a solid reaction to a post he doesn't like. A scum doesn't want to mess with order, as chaos can mess them over.
Tom's logic is also sound in his following two posts.
#53 of Anak is what I was thinking. Scum Osie is plausible in my mind.
Can't make an opinion on Emcee_Mikey yet.
I don't like Osie's defensiveness over the discussion between Anak and Tom, as that's conducive. Though, defensiveness is NAI. Woo.
Osie, I was mentioning I'm around as I was going to share my thoughts later. Irritating that you thought otherwise. I'm upset with you for being upset with me.
Vezok... Why? It feels like his posts are trollier than mine on MAL. :|
Just so I don't let bias get in the way, I'm going to leave Osie for now. I don't think that Vezok is scum though, as scum need to blend in. I'm going with either tom or anak is scum, so I'll be leaving my vote on Tom for now, until I deem another player scummier than osie.
"scum tries to pass off RVS as actual reads, or something." That's what you said right? That's what happened here. By self discourse, you are likely scum.
@osieorb because when i troll, im town. Can't really say he's scum because i feel he's trollier than me...
@tomsloger The only 'compliment' i gave you was that you're logic was sound. You made it seem like I voted on you when I said you did some good things. This is a scum tactic of misdirection.
I don't think you've been trolling this game. Once again it seems like you're following your own self-described scum meta.
how the fudge is that self meta? You asked me why i wasnt voting for velkoz. that was my answer. am i trolling right now? If you say i am, theres why i compared u to wisp. I dont need a self meta read. Why did u feel the need to bring it up -_-
this post feels intentionally different than the rest of your posts. I don't think it's meaningful but I'm quoting it in case someone wants to go back and look at it. Of note: You called vezok velkoz. Wrong game.
I apologise for my absence. I am a little more comfortable now. I had ear surgery and have been taking prescription painkillers which are a little strong. Didn't want to participate in a state where I was more likely to ruin the game than contribute. (So, rawr Osie).
On the topic of reads, Osie is never going to read me properly as they have a bias against me (A toxic personality over on MAL hehe). The problem with such an early read list, is that it can be either scum or town-lean. Thus, NAI. There is the fact that osie did not vote when he made his reads, and seemed like he was justifying the RVS on Tom. Often scum try and portray RVS as an actual read. Keep this in mind.
Just so I don't let bias get in the way, I'm going to leave Osie for now. I don't think that Vezok is scum though, as scum need to blend in. I'm going with either tom or anak is scum, so I'll be leaving my vote on Tom for now, until I deem another player scummier than osie.
one of the first things rumanshi says is "this person who's going to scum read me doesn't ever read me right". the rest of that paragraph is using way too many words to get a simple point across, kinda fillery, like they're purposely taking it too far just to have more things to say, you know what I mean? Just something to keep in mind I guess.
I'm comfortable with a vote on rumanshi for this instantly deflective behavior
osie; Eh, town read on you now I was only mentioning that osie was likely to scumread me if I didn't act trolly and obnoxious. Lo and behold, this happened. I'm trying not to be an obnoxious donkey on this site.
Emcee_Mikey; My intro was literally 'Hi. Without further ado, vote:Tom'. If it's the second time I came in, please explain why the vote. Not just say 'you don't like it'. That's not productive. Oh, deflective behaviour. Even though my exact prediction happened.
Forgive me for English. Painkillers atm.
I call rumanshi out for deflection and he deflects by saying "this isn't my intro, THIS is! AHhahaha." Tells me to explain the vote even though... I've explained the vote? Alright.
That's my case for rumanshi and I think he's a good contender for D1 lynch. Not only do I think he's probably scum but by his own logic there's a case there to lynch him. Granted I haven't been doing a good job putting pressure on him, but I honestly suck at early game aggro. If I was a wolf here I feel like I'd have my partner doing the pressuring, because I think pressure on rumanshi here would help lead to a lynch. I really think he deserves to die today and FWIW his vote on me feels meh.
Vezok is looking weirder over the past few posts as well, so I don't have him in town any more, but certainly not looking scummy by any stretch.
Okay, read these pages. It seems most of the action will happen while I'm asleep, while I'm around for only slight interactivity. That's okay.
Mmmm, that was fun. So, @Emcee_Mikey, you said you were going to tunnel me all day? What happened to this. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of you following through with this, as the only thing you've done is say you think I am scummy. If you're going to do this, pressure me. Ask questions. Your tunnelling feels useless.
My tunneling IS useless. I really, really, REALLY think you're scum, I just don't know how to convince other people to vote for you (I think this needs to happen). I have no interest in lynching anybody else today, because nobody has acted as scummy as you.
@Emcee_Mikey: You suck at tunnelling, because you're not doing it. The reason tunnelling is occasionally useful for town is you can pressure people into making slips. However, tunnelling is often a scum play for this exact reason. The fact that you haven't been applying pressure, asking questions, means that there is no point in tunnelling. Also, the point is not to convince others to vote for me. It's to convince them that I am the scummiest player. You have not done that. The way you have phrased it, is how a scum player would think.
In the comment about lying, you're wrong. Just because I originally did not feel like saying it, does not mean I cannot change my mind. Given that the painkillers I am on are quite strong, I don't think it was wrong to not share until I was not under their influence.
I don't see where I've tried to pass of RVS as an actual read?
I mean, I was simply calling you out about the entrance. That's not deflective. You're reading so much into things and trying to prove how they indicate scum. I don't see it.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
And there are plenty of people who have made scummy posts this game. The only reason you're thinking 'Rumanshi is definitely scum' is because you've decided to tunnel. But that leaves 7 out of 8 players who you aren't focusing on at all. This is bad town play.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
I want to reflect on this some more because it could be important. Tom tiptoed around osie earlier and this whole interaction is strange to me. Like he forced himself to give a read on osie. I want to say this is related to them knowing each other's playstyles on some level rather than it being w/w but if either of them flips scum I think they're scum with each other. Unlikely though.
Tom and I tiptoe around each other a lot. We've played quite a few games with each other.
I want to reflect on this some more because it could be important. Tom tiptoed around osie earlier and this whole interaction is strange to me. Like he forced himself to give a read on osie. I want to say this is related to them knowing each other's playstyles on some level rather than it being w/w but if either of them flips scum I think they're scum with each other. Unlikely though.
Tom and I tiptoe around each other a lot. We've played quite a few games with each other.
And there are plenty of people who have made scummy posts this game. The only reason you're thinking 'Rumanshi is definitely scum' is because you've decided to tunnel. But that leaves 7 out of 8 players who you aren't focusing on at all. This is bad town play.
And there are plenty of people who have made scummy posts this game. The only reason you're thinking 'Rumanshi is definitely scum' is because you've decided to tunnel. But that leaves 7 out of 8 players who you aren't focusing on at all. This is bad town play.
I'm not wrong.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
]1) Are you saying disengagement is more likely to come from town than scum? If so, why do you feel that way?
2) Why did you respond to Shadow with specifics on why you think Mikey's town, but blew me off when I asked why you are voting for Osie? Do I have to be explicit? What are the reasons that make you think Osie is scum?
1) Yeah. I feel like the town is always less invested in the game than the scum.
2) It was a gambit to see how osie would react. Votes without reasons are a good way to check for reactions. I have relevant reasons for voting osie which aren't that different from your reasons for suspecting him. I'll make a post about this later.
Also, I made a mistake in the last post. It should be post #194 and not #196.
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]1) Are you saying disengagement is more likely to come from town than scum? If so, why do you feel that way?
2) Why did you respond to Shadow with specifics on why you think Mikey's town, but blew me off when I asked why you are voting for Osie? Do I have to be explicit? What are the reasons that make you think Osie is scum?
1) Yeah. I feel like the town is always less invested in the game than the scum.
2) It was a gambit to see how osie would react. Votes without reasons are a good way to check for reactions. I have relevant reasons for voting osie which aren't that different from your reasons for suspecting him. I'll make a post about this later.
Also, I made a mistake in the last post. It should be post #194 and not #196.
\
1. In reply to the first point, I disagree. Town are more likely to be frustrated when they are voted for no reason. Scum won't react heavily as they know you have nothing.
2. I dislike the concept that you propose. This is not anything to do with Town vs Scum, more to do with the players in the game.
3. This is the only thing I can see which seems a town action, but it can also read as an excuse.
For this post, +1 scum bun.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
@Dawning: Zero Escape was not a game I’d consider to be typical for me or my scum game, just FYI.
For ruma, does he not troll as scum?
And you really don’t have a third player you think has been townie? Like, give me a low confidence read, but give me something.I kind of think Mikey should claim, the good feelings I had for him earlier are just gone.
I meant exposure to you as a player. I don't have enough experience with your town/scum games to be able to tell a difference yet.
Rumanshi is more satisfied in the background as scum, while he likes to push buttons as town. he was scum in Haiku mafia, so you have a reference.
I can't decide who of Cantrip/Anak/Vezok are better than the other.
That Mikey wagon hurts because I'm pretty confident there's at least 1 scum there.
That means Mikey is probably town... Hmm.
do you see anything specific about Emcee that says town? bouncing it off the fact that others could be scum isn't a good explanation, since even scum can do that.
Vote: Emcee_Mikey
for switching votes, which means leaving rvs. reasons needed.
blind adherence to meta
what about that was "blind adherence to meta"? I haven't seen you play before, so I don't know what your meta is.
you do have to explain your reasons for switching without pushing, because I see no reason not to when said person was present.
end of post: Vezok's jump off Emcee would be a detrimental move if he was scum, since it's better to focus on and support a happening wagon rather than start a new one. not sure there. still inclined to leave my vote on Emcee.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
]1) Are you saying disengagement is more likely to come from town than scum? If so, why do you feel that way?
2) Why did you respond to Shadow with specifics on why you think Mikey's town, but blew me off when I asked why you are voting for Osie? Do I have to be explicit? What are the reasons that make you think Osie is scum?
1) Yeah. I feel like the town is always less invested in the game than the scum.
Respectfully disagree. In my experience, town tends to pay attention to everything and everyone (with paranoia), while scum get lazy and skim and/or cherry pick the arguments they want.
Quote from vezok »
2) It was a gambit to see how osie would react. Votes without reasons are a good way to check for reactions. I have relevant reasons for voting osie which aren't that different from your reasons for suspecting him. I'll make a post about this later.
Ok, I can accept this, but I'll be looking for your post.
1. In reply to the first point, I disagree. Town are more likely to be frustrated when they are voted for no reason. Scum won't react heavily as they know you have nothing.
/barn, with the qualifier that scum don't react as heavily because they know the accusations are sincere and not fabricated by scum.
@Rumanshi: I like your 228 with its stream of consciousness styling. But just posting post numbers and your thoughts is brutal/hard to reference what you're talking about. I had to open a new page and do a side-by-side comparison. A few questions:
1) In response to Osie's 207, you just said "Hmm..." Can you expand on what you wanted to communicate by that?
2) You say "Okay then. Saved to mind." for my 215. What part(s) are you referencing? (I find this especially funny given that you exhort Vezok in 216 to elaborate and not be vague.)
@Mikey: Can I get some responses to my two questions in 204?
@Dawning: I read your most recent post and realized I have practically zero mental picture of you, your mindstate, or your suspects. So I read your ISO. You suspect Emcee and Osie (no longer Tom) and think Ruman and Shadow are town, with me, Anak, and Vezok all leantown reads. What from Zero Escape is making you think Shadow is town? I'll warn you that Shadow is very good as scum (although I suspect he would issue the same warning about me). What do you like about Anak? I like your take on Vezok's unvote of Emcee.
Was going to exhort Tom to play moar, but got ninja'd by the VLAbrador Retriever.
I'm getting mostly Town v. Town vibes from the Emcee-Rumanshi tunneling conflict, although Rumanshi's 233 makes my skin crawl. "Lots of people are acting scummy, not just me." :/
@Anak: I pretty much /barn Osie's response about what I mean by agenda-driven.
Also @Anak: You don't post for almost 48 hours and a request for the definition of "agenda-driven" is all you pop in for? Plan to do any scumhunting, or are you just going to lurk to a victory? (Note, I completely understand if you're busy. But I waited two days to see what you'd post, and that was disappointingly underwhelming...)
TFW there are FOUR competing wagons tied at L-3... I'd join one of them, but I'm mostly townleaning all four of them.
@Osie & @Shadow: Vezok is posting and interacting. I feel like he'll be decipherable with time. One of you come help me pressure Anak so we get some sort of response out of him. If you aren't interested, pray tell why not.
I was curious about the agenda driven comment because I wanted to completely understand what you meant by it. And knowing that, I will say this, why does that make someone scummy? Do town never post things other than words specifically designated for scum hunting?
What agenda do you think I am pushing? Why does pushing that agenda actually make me scum?
Shadow, do you think I am actually scum or are you just voting me to force him to explain his read of me? Either way I'm still sticking with my evaluate later read of him, it worked out in another game (Biceps mafia I think?)
I don't plan on lurking, but I'm never at the top of the post list, as evidenced by every game ever I have been in
For ruma, does he not troll as scum?
And you really don’t have a third player you think has been townie? Like, give me a low confidence read, but give me something.
I kind of think Mikey should claim, the good feelings I had for him earlier are just gone.
That means Mikey is probably town... Hmm.
That adds a second reason to read that game. Not sure I'll have time to do so, but if I find the time, I will.
It's a factor, but a minor one. I'm getting town vibes from Mikey because he seems to be comfortable just putting thoughts out there and running with them. He's not trying to make friends. He's not pushing an agenda, and he's having some fun. I like that in 59 he remembered that he had similar thoughts, went back and confirmed, then used that to reinforce his reads. It *could* be contrived, but it doesn't feel like it is. 64 and 70 are good pushes for townclearing (although if Anak really is scum, Mikey is a bit more likely to be scum). I like that he's encouraging discussion.
On the flip side, I *don't* like that he tends to start out vague and only gets down to specifics when questioned. I liked his "stereo-board" analogy, but I would like him to use examples of what "town sounds" Tom made in response. He sorta did that in his recent response to me when I asked about Anak, but he still didn't show any specifics.
But overall, I still get a town feel from him.
That helps me see what you're talking about, but can you point to any of Anak's questions and show how what he's doing is "beneficial for both anak and tom"?
Why? I know that I *love* finding something that strongly indicates another player is Town because it aids PoE. What's dumb about it?
Got it. Thanks.
I take it case by case. I've certainly bulldogged a nitpick as town in the past, but I feel like town, usually, are more willing to take a step back and reassess things like that. Scum love finding something they feel is "black and white" and latching onto it as something they can safely park themselves on for the duration.
I still feel like Osie is town. I feel like I already aired my thoughts on Osie.
I know it's the internet, so your intent may have been more humorous, but this comes off to me as unnecessarily abrasive.
@Osie: Which vote(s) on Mikey do you think are scum? Why are you so confident?
Mikey has responded well under pressure and I don't think he is scum any more.
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To answer in the opposite order:
It's too close to my POE.
Ruma is the towniest, Vezok is the scummiest.
49: "Vezok is something. Not too worried here yet."
80: "All of Vezok's posts are sleazy." And you vote him. No examples, just that you don't like his #75.
202: You feel strongly enough about Vezok that you are questioning Mikey's wagon.
The other two voters (BlueSky and Ruma) you've recently indicated you think are town, so I figured it had to be Vezok, but I don't see ANY reasoning behind your suspicion of him, yet you feel "strongly" that there's scum on Mikey's wagon.
If I'm missing something you posted about why you suspect Vezok, please point me to it. Otherwise, I'm going to need you to go into detail as to why you suspect Vezok strongly enough to potentially townclear Mikey.
Where did I say I thought Dawning was townie? Because that's never been the case.
I think you're taking "townfeels" a little too strong. He was a scumread, he got pushed to a scumlean or maybe neutral at best.
2nd page I didn't like any of the posts that Vezok had made so far.
3rd page Vezok votes Tom with shoddy reasoning.
I'm not totally convinced on his backdown being organic.
He then takes a wine question and draws hard conclusions from it.
Then he takes the easy vote on Mikey.
And not much real meat to his posts so far...
Then an unvote based on what? 1 post? The heck? Like I kinda get a bit out of the other stuff but there wasn't real serious pressure at L-3, so the whole "responding well to pressure" is SUPER reachy. Vezok is crazy scummy here.
All his posts felt disengaged like he isn't scared of pressure. I'm not town reading him by any means, but I don't feel like he is scum any more.
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Vote osie
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Also OMGUS
97 you mention her.
114 you say she's not necessarily scum but needs to lurk less.
168 you seem to banter playfully with her (not seeing whether you think she's town or scum there).
173 you fencesit on her alignment, saying she normally posts more, but that that doesn't mean much.
175 you say she sounds like herself and you maybe have her as a scumlean.
Huh, I thought you had a "townlean" post on her, as well. Still, you haven't really chimed in on her, almost entirely fencesitting.
I like that you have reasons, but even more I like your tone of righteous indignation. This response makes me feel better about you again. Thanks.
I don't know that I agree that Vezok's votes have been bad. That said...
@Vezok: Why are you voting Osie?
Cause he's scum and I'm in the business of lynching scum.
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Quote for me the responses you liked and why please.
I am kinda on the fence on Dawning. That said, my last game with her I hard tunneled her as both town. So my uncertainty is founded in experience.
Phone posting is so frustrating.
#176 - Another humorous analogy that makes absolutely no sense and looks like disengaged town.
#196 - Genuinely scumhunting and ignored the bull***** votes. I feel like scum Mikey would at least acknoledge the fact that his wagon is only voting him for dumb reasons.
#203 - Good read progression. I think scum would rather throw mud at most of his wagon, especially after the bull***** votes, but he sticks with his guns.
I'm not convinced that mikey is town, but he is back to the null category until I see more. I can see him pulling off this series of posts as scum, but I mostly believe they come from town right now.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Vezok is still gross. Waffling, easy pushes, and only just enough effort. I have seen no reason to de-tunnel there.
2) Why did you respond to Shadow with specifics on why you think Mikey's town, but blew me off when I asked why you are voting for Osie? Do I have to be explicit? What are the reasons that make you think Osie is scum?
I have seen this a couple times, I think Cantrip said it too, but explain please what agenda driven means, and why being so makes someone scummy.
Agenda-driven means that they're posts appear to be motivated off of an agenda beyond scum-hunting.
#201: There's no precedent of me being scum recently on MAL, shadow. I came back from a hiatus recently and only got town roles over there.
#202: There's no point declaring reads based upon wagons. Especially as there are no L1 wagons. I do understand where this is coming from though.
#203: Are you ever going to answer my questions? I also believe you said you were gonna tunnel, earlier? @Emcee_Mikey : What happened to this? Where is the promised pressure you were keen to say you'll apply on me? #110 : You seem to have either forgotten about this, or backed out of it. Why?
#204: @Cantripmancer Mikey also hasn't answered all the questions directed at him.
#205: Not relevant atm.
#206: Easy question to answer, why?
#207: Hmm...
#208: Town attitude, is trying to understand osie? I think?
#209: Not relevant I think
#210: I'm sure he will. I hope.
#211: I agree with Osie's thought process here.
#212: What the heck is this? Being disengaged from pressure is not towny. That's scummy af.
#213: So, omgus?
#214: Osie called it too.
#215: Okay then. Saved to mind.
#216: Elaborate. Don't be vague.
#217: N/A
#218: Seems like a Shadowy thing to do.
#219: Hmmm...
#220: This is logically flawed. How is #196 an argument for Mikey? 196 is my post? @vezopiraka Once again, disengagement is a scumlean, not a townlean. Scum have more knowledge, so they have less reason to be flustered when they are voted upon.
#221: Kay. Points still stand.
#222: Self-preservation isn't really an alignment indicator. And there's no need to self-preserve where he was. Not sure I agree with your reasoning here.
#223: I Agree, I'd like to know too.
#224: +1 townie brownie.
Mmmm, that was fun. So, @Emcee_Mikey, you said you were going to tunnel me all day? What happened to this. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of you following through with this, as the only thing you've done is say you think I am scummy. If you're going to do this, pressure me. Ask questions. Your tunnelling feels useless.
blind adherence to meta
I want to reflect on this some more because it could be important. Tom tiptoed around osie earlier and this whole interaction is strange to me. Like he forced himself to give a read on osie. I want to say this is related to them knowing each other's playstyles on some level rather than it being w/w but if either of them flips scum I think they're scum with each other. Unlikely though.
examples given
"Tom, you said something weird. I'm going to take what you said and ask questions to allow you to rephrase what you said in a way that looks better and is much more helpful for the rest of town."
Tom: *does so*
sure
good post I guess
oh you were lying? :^)
I don't like this part and already mentioned it and osie already commented on it.
"scum tries to pass off RVS as actual reads, or something." That's what you said right? That's what happened here. By self discourse, you are likely scum.
I don't think you've been trolling this game. Once again it seems like you're following your own self-described scum meta.
this post feels intentionally different than the rest of your posts. I don't think it's meaningful but I'm quoting it in case someone wants to go back and look at it. Of note: You called vezok velkoz. Wrong game.
I call rumanshi out for deflection and he deflects by saying "this isn't my intro, THIS is! AHhahaha." Tells me to explain the vote even though... I've explained the vote? Alright.
That's my case for rumanshi and I think he's a good contender for D1 lynch. Not only do I think he's probably scum but by his own logic there's a case there to lynch him. Granted I haven't been doing a good job putting pressure on him, but I honestly suck at early game aggro. If I was a wolf here I feel like I'd have my partner doing the pressuring, because I think pressure on rumanshi here would help lead to a lynch. I really think he deserves to die today and FWIW his vote on me feels meh.
Vezok is looking weirder over the past few posts as well, so I don't have him in town any more, but certainly not looking scummy by any stretch.
In the comment about lying, you're wrong. Just because I originally did not feel like saying it, does not mean I cannot change my mind. Given that the painkillers I am on are quite strong, I don't think it was wrong to not share until I was not under their influence.
I don't see where I've tried to pass of RVS as an actual read?
I mean, I was simply calling you out about the entrance. That's not deflective. You're reading so much into things and trying to prove how they indicate scum. I don't see it.
Tom and I tiptoe around each other a lot. We've played quite a few games with each other.
Yeah, but at the same time it kinda feels wrong to hard scumread him on self-meta.
I also never described my scum meta. I only described a town meta.
I'm not wrong.
I wanted to see how he reacts under more pressure. Scum get a lot more frustrated when they get voted for no reason.
1) Yeah. I feel like the town is always less invested in the game than the scum.
2) It was a gambit to see how osie would react. Votes without reasons are a good way to check for reactions. I have relevant reasons for voting osie which aren't that different from your reasons for suspecting him. I'll make a post about this later.
Also, I made a mistake in the last post. It should be post #194 and not #196.
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1. In reply to the first point, I disagree. Town are more likely to be frustrated when they are voted for no reason. Scum won't react heavily as they know you have nothing.
2. I dislike the concept that you propose. This is not anything to do with Town vs Scum, more to do with the players in the game.
3. This is the only thing I can see which seems a town action, but it can also read as an excuse.
For this post, +1 scum bun.
Anaklusmos: Cantripmancer (L-4)
Cantripmancer: (L-5)
dawningbluesky: (L-5)
Emcee_Mikey: dawningbluesky, Rumanshi (L-3)
osieorb18: Anaklusmos, vezokpiraka (L-3)
Rumanshi: Emcee_Mikey, tomsloger (L-3)
shadowlancerx: (L-5)
tomsloger: (L-5)
vezokpiraka: osieorb18, shadowlancerx (L-3)
Not Voting:
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline is 30 March 2018.
Rumanshi is more satisfied in the background as scum, while he likes to push buttons as town. he was scum in Haiku mafia, so you have a reference.
I can't decide who of Cantrip/Anak/Vezok are better than the other.
do you see anything specific about Emcee that says town? bouncing it off the fact that others could be scum isn't a good explanation, since even scum can do that.
what about that was "blind adherence to meta"? I haven't seen you play before, so I don't know what your meta is.
you do have to explain your reasons for switching without pushing, because I see no reason not to when said person was present.
end of post: Vezok's jump off Emcee would be a detrimental move if he was scum, since it's better to focus on and support a happening wagon rather than start a new one. not sure there. still inclined to leave my vote on Emcee.
Be grateful, always."
Ok, I can accept this, but I'll be looking for your post.
/barn, with the qualifier that scum don't react as heavily because they know the accusations are sincere and not fabricated by scum.
@Rumanshi: I like your 228 with its stream of consciousness styling. But just posting post numbers and your thoughts is brutal/hard to reference what you're talking about. I had to open a new page and do a side-by-side comparison. A few questions:
1) In response to Osie's 207, you just said "Hmm..." Can you expand on what you wanted to communicate by that?
2) You say "Okay then. Saved to mind." for my 215. What part(s) are you referencing? (I find this especially funny given that you exhort Vezok in 216 to elaborate and not be vague.)
@Mikey: Can I get some responses to my two questions in 204?
@Dawning: I read your most recent post and realized I have practically zero mental picture of you, your mindstate, or your suspects. So I read your ISO. You suspect Emcee and Osie (no longer Tom) and think Ruman and Shadow are town, with me, Anak, and Vezok all leantown reads. What from Zero Escape is making you think Shadow is town? I'll warn you that Shadow is very good as scum (although I suspect he would issue the same warning about me). What do you like about Anak? I like your take on Vezok's unvote of Emcee.
Was going to exhort Tom to play moar, but got ninja'd by the VLAbrador Retriever.
I'm getting mostly Town v. Town vibes from the Emcee-Rumanshi tunneling conflict, although Rumanshi's 233 makes my skin crawl. "Lots of people are acting scummy, not just me." :/
@Anak: I pretty much /barn Osie's response about what I mean by agenda-driven.
Also @Anak: You don't post for almost 48 hours and a request for the definition of "agenda-driven" is all you pop in for? Plan to do any scumhunting, or are you just going to lurk to a victory? (Note, I completely understand if you're busy. But I waited two days to see what you'd post, and that was disappointingly underwhelming...)
TFW there are FOUR competing wagons tied at L-3... I'd join one of them, but I'm mostly townleaning all four of them.
@Osie & @Shadow: Vezok is posting and interacting. I feel like he'll be decipherable with time. One of you come help me pressure Anak so we get some sort of response out of him. If you aren't interested, pray tell why not.
I’m curious about Tom’s super secret read here anyway, because this is not the town Anak I found in Low Fantasy.
@Cantrip: Do you have previous experience with Vezok from times past?
Also which posts between Mikey and Ruma look TvT?
@Dawning: Cantrip has a so-so scum game.
.
.
.
>:D Just kidding, Cantrip is correct, I would caution you to be very careful with reading him as well.
What agenda do you think I am pushing? Why does pushing that agenda actually make me scum?
Shadow, do you think I am actually scum or are you just voting me to force him to explain his read of me? Either way I'm still sticking with my evaluate later read of him, it worked out in another game (Biceps mafia I think?)
I don't plan on lurking, but I'm never at the top of the post list, as evidenced by every game ever I have been in