Whether it's just that everyone else is convincing or not... I feel like this is just an all around good option. The more protections I see, the more I realize that several of the protectors are lying (probably) and the sad part is that because most of them are "meh" as D_V put it, it really makes me suspect Shadow cause his is the best of them and almost feels out of place... but I still am kind of seeing the thought processes that is leading people to angle towards AE.
Can you restate your roll please kazin?
^^ Add that quote to previous reply... don't know how I deleted the quote part last time.
I've been really busy all weekend. Trying to catch up.
DV claiming watcher and his targets make me feel a lot better about him. Plus him getting roleblocked is another good sign. He's close to Kazin and Tom now for me. I'm also feeling better about Shadow. 1326 in particular reads well to me. His back and forth with Rodemy in it reads well and shows critical thinking that I'm liking. His wondering if Rod knows more about tom's role and his kraken spec definitely feel like game solving.
Tom and Kazin both voting AE is interesting to me. They're my two top town reads, but I definitely felt that AE was townier in his interaction with Terry earlier. But I guess since SJT's likely town now, I should reevaluate AE. I'll try to do that tonight. Full ISO on AE incoming.
On another note:
@Tom why is Vezok's role possibly clearing? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Not a train of thought I can follow.
You should be lynching the obv scum, scum role cop. He is cleanly, clearly caught.
But now you want to murder AE the townie who has a role cop ability?!
You dont want to trust me on terry?
Fine, I could be wrong. So leave them both alive, have them both target me. Let's see how badly the scum want to get a mislynch on me, while tangling with a watcher, to boot. Will be enlightening how they choose to play that and/or have terry lie about it.
But before you let Tom the "I'm totally almost vanilla" neighor talk you into creating a chain lynch scenario by murdering one of the people able to truthfully verify my claim, preventing you from derp lynching the neutral off of pure paranoia, I would love you guys to maybe, just maybe think ABOUT ACTUALLY USING YOUR ROLE COP(S) ON ME, instead of just going "oh noes, he might kill us, better investigate by stabbing him!"
You literally have two different roles who can verify this for you. It's not an impenetrable mystery where you have to scratch your heads and consult the portents of Tom's belly button lint. Just double target me and let's come back tomorrow and hopefully put this to bed, or else someone lies, and I rip their head off, it'll be fun.
You should be lynching the obv scum, scum role cop. He is cleanly, clearly caught.
But now you want to murder AE the townie who has a role cop ability?!
You dont want to trust me on terry?
Fine, I could be wrong. So leave them both alive, have them both target me. Let's see how badly the scum want to get a mislynch on me, while tangling with a watcher, to boot. Will be enlightening how they choose to play that and/or have terry lie about it.
But before you let Tom the "I'm totally almost vanilla" neighor talk you into creating a chain lynch scenario by murdering one of the people able to truthfully verify my claim, preventing you from derp lynching the neutral off of pure paranoia, I would love you guys to maybe, just maybe think ABOUT ACTUALLY USING YOUR ROLE COP(S) ON ME, instead of just going "oh noes, he might kill us, better investigate by stabbing him!"
First why is terry obvious scum? I thought he was, but I liked the way he backed off my "slip" feels like scum terry could have easily stayed in that and no one would have blinked twice. And how does using both our role cops on you clear anything up? In that case wouldn't they both just tell the truth? I agree that Terry should have targeted you earlier, but spending both on you now doesn't seem like it clears anything up. Also what's specifically townie about AE? I haven't started my reread of him yet, but I want to know what you're seeing. He's not left much of an impression on me.
@Tom the implication being he wouldn't lie when he knows there's two role cops out there? I guess that makes sense. I was looking at it from the prespective that since Shadow and I claimed protectives he could very well be lying. After all there seems to be a missing RB targeting DV. But I guess the vanilla'ing could be considered the scum teams RB role. Set up gaming is really hard without flips... I feel like knowing Rhand's would make this a lot easier.
And how the hell do you just discount the fact that vez could be lying about having a BP as scum, Tom?
Come on, man. Your scum rep is better than this.
I mean, from the town's perspective, I guess that makes him a fabulous target for a role investigation also, as that would clear him. So I suppose you all could just pretend that Terry was too dense to use his role cop on me to try to catch me in an outright lie, and pretend that he will give truthful results and should live two more days.
Sadly though, I think you are now in the predicament of either counting on scum role cop to be truthful to you, or picking to clear either me, or Vez. But of course, vez is only cleared if you verify I can't kill. Haha! So you guys do have to target me.
Ok, ok. So here is how you should play it. Rolecops on me as first priority. Double cop me, to be sure, since my investigation is more critical to verify I'm not a killer who needs Insta-lynched and I'm the key to clearing vez, too.
Then, Terry, if you foolishly allow him to live, has to make a tough choice. Does he try to gambit versus vez and lie about vez not being bulletproof? If he does, he trades one for one with vez. Or, he has to verify Vez as truthful cleared for you.
Boom. Two cleared trees for the town, even if Terry is scum (which he clearly is).
No i mean use the two rolecops to verify/catch vezok. Which, I mean I guess we could do the same to AZ like he's now suggesting but if that was the plan id want to just lynch AZ and go for a confirmed town. Not sure what a confirmed neutral gets me tbh.
But I'm more interested in archmage/Joe wagons.
Oh and didn't shadow say he jailed me? I assume that's what blocked DV
What's the list of roles in this game you would clear if confirmed?
(And yes, we're talking about confirmed unless exactly scum with joeterry/archmage)
Vezok being bulletproof and nothing more? Maybe. That would make him the only vanilla basically? Like, a role that does ~nothing (except grapes ability directing a kill back IF he performs the kill + a possible AZ kill) in a setup where everyone is something? Nah.
Could probably make the same argiment for me, if it was confirmed I was neighbor and nothing more. But don't really think I need it.
Confirming that AZ is nothing more than he claims could be a thing. But, like, pretty low reward tbh.
Everyone else has roles that could ~conceivably be either. Different likelihoods, and lying would be outing for most people
You literally have two different roles who can verify this for you. It's not an impenetrable mystery where you have to scratch your heads and consult the portents of Tom's belly button lint. Just double target me and let's come back tomorrow and hopefully put this to bed, or else someone lies, and I rip their head off, it'll be fun.
But What’s the point of even having you alive let alone confirm your role? Best case scenario you don’t count against our wincon worst case you make us lose.
I thought it was protect plus RB and that differentiated it from commuter and forced commuter type roles (but I could very well be wrong).
@Tom I now get what you're saying about Vezok. And that line of thinking makes sense if no other kills pop up. Kazin showing up vanilla would too, but that's defintiely not worth it, since he's already basically clear anyway. Rodemy would be clearing if he showed up as census taker and neighbor, but also doesn't seem worth it since Rod is basically always town anyway. The rest can go either way I think.
Yeah if we don't lynch one of the rolecops today, vezok seems the best choice.
And frankly if we do that's probably where the other should be pointed imo.
But when it comes right down to it I'm not comfortable eliminating arch/terry/vezok as a viable team, much less vezok and 1 of the 2.
Why are you feeling good about rodemy?
I was pretty high on him earlier but this "abandon me in the neighborhood and push me for weakass reasons in thread" is... let's just say not my favorite
I'm under the opinion we lynch Azreal let all the night abilities go off and let the scum kill somebody and make decisions from there.
Like I know that sound *****ty sort of.
I’m absolutely certain that Tom is better than he’s playing; his setup gaming assumes that everyone is telling the truth, despite the fact that we have an unclaimed Vanillaizor, roleblocker, kraken/redirector, and whatever is hiding the flips. Even if some of those things overlap or Az is lying and possess one of those abilities that’s still too much unclaimed for Tom to take everything at face value.
Rodemy, again, do you have information that indicates Tom has more to his role than just being neighbors with you?
My Jail ability both protects a target from kills, and roleblocks them, as is standard for a jailer ability, not irregular at all. It has nothing to do with whatever affected DV, the only reason it could have is if he had been a vig. This is another point where Tom is just playing dumb in a “try to look townie” way.I think one of Terry/AE should rolecop Az and the other should rolecop Vezo. If for some reason we don’t lynch Tom today, then rolecop him instead of vezo.
1A. Terry is scum because there's no way he passes up catching me in a lie, if he's town, and he truly wants to kill me. If he thinks I'm a lying neutral, and possibly a killing neutral, he role-cops the hell out of me. Period, end of story.
1B. Instead, he investigated AE, the number #1 priority target for the scum to rolecop. AE mentioned publicly that the town's neutral should target him. Now, if you're the scum team, and you're trying to navigate around town power, and not get blown up, AE becomes a prime target for the scum to investigate. Because if he has an ability that can be used to good effect against people who target him, you want to make absolutely sure you're not walking into a landmine with him. For the town, not a priority target, because if it does something awful, such as killing somebody, AE's clearly going to have to talk about it at some point, because he already went on record as having a power role and solicited someone to hit him with it. But for a scum team with targeted abilities, trying to figure out who they can safely mess with? Absolutely, you role-cop the hell out of AE to protect your other team members.
1C. Add to that Terry's awful hammer/voting/suspicion record, and you've got yourselves a slam-dunk Terry scum case.
That's why I'm advocating both Terry and AE target me. Because I don't trust Terry further than I can through him, and we've had a TON of people claim to be redirected or manipulated during the night.
2. The benefit of confirming my role-claim should be obvious (especially to Tom). If I'm not a killing neutral, and I just have the abilities I claimed, there's no way as a neutral survivor I should be a lynch target. It also allows you to look elsewhere for mafia, and it allows you to clear Vez of all suspicion, resulting in a bulletproof, clear townie. Two cleared slots, one of them bulletproof, is a pretty awesome return for a couple of role cop shots. Or, Terry lies, and you net a scum instead. That's cool too.
3A. Tom's also scum. He botched his role-claim, claiming to be only a neighborizer.
3B. He forgot to take into account that Vez could be lying about being bulletproof, and was ready to instantly confirm him just for saying that he had it. That's the kind of blithe faith in claims that the scum put into townie claims, not the healthy level of suspicion that townies bear regarding unverified claims, especially from loose cannon, unpredictable players like Vez.
3C. Look at how he's shifted course on me - going from declaring me a distant iceberg, to baseless speculation that I might need killed because I *could* have a killing role.
3D. His wagons. Are terrible. I'm not paying that close attention, but my recollection is that with both our lynches he's pushed two really obvious townies to death, power-wolfing style.
I'm under the opinion we lynch Azreal let all the night abilities go off and let the scum kill somebody and make decisions from there.
Like I know that sound *****ty sort of.
But I'm not not lynching Azreal by tomorrow.
And frankly Azreal probabally stole KA's soul.
You realize that you guys have the ability to verify that I only have a single soul for the rest of the game, right? Just continue to target me with a non-kill ability. If it resolves, I only have one soul. You can do that again tonight, and confirm that I still have only one, and verify my role as claimed as well.
Then you lynch obv-scum tom today, and obv-scum terry tomorrow, pick off your final scum shortly after, and everyone's happy.
Yeah if we don't lynch one of the rolecops today, vezok seems the best choice.
And frankly if we do that's probably where the other should be pointed imo.
But when it comes right down to it I'm not comfortable eliminating arch/terry/vezok as a viable team, much less vezok and 1 of the 2.
Why are you feeling good about rodemy?
I was pretty high on him earlier but this "abandon me in the neighborhood and push me for weakass reasons in thread" is... let's just say not my favorite
Maybe it's not your favorite, but doesn't it seem pretty much like paranoid town?
@shadow: Does your jailer ability only prevent kills on the target?
Correct, my target is both protected from dying and roleblocked.
@tom: Either your role does something else or someone roleblcked DV.
gonna go ahead and wait for him to confirm.
Also still waiting on Terry to claim target
I, however, am just a neighbor
I confirm this. Tom was my N1 target, BUT my ability specifically says I learn that player's non-factional abilities at the beginning of the next Day and out of the blue ISO PMed me a couple days ago and clarified that non-factional refers to abilities not granted as a result of alignment, then he used the example of the mafia nightkill or a SK nightkill.
I mean that's how I always read it anyway, but the timing of his unprompted clarification was interesting. My gut says that ISO may very well have just made two town neighbors, but the balance seems off and under powering Tom. Tom's role specifically says that he does not know the alignment of his neighbor, which seems odd in a scum pm, but it could just be standard wording.
@Az: I think you are telling the truth. You are wrong on me, but your case on Tom makes sense, which gives me less faith in it. The reason I didn't target you was because I decided I was going to believe you and still think you should die. No point in wasting a rolecop shot on you when I could catch someone with the flip hiding or kraken ability or some other obv scum role. I'm starting to think the Kraken was a DBS one-shot. I think that means we may have gotten scum with DBS and probably implies DOTA was town unfortunately.
I may throw down a vote on Tom shortly. Need to check VC.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I’m absolutely certain that Tom is better than he’s playing; his setup gaming assumes that everyone is telling the truth, despite the fact that we have an unclaimed Vanillaizor, roleblocker, kraken/redirector, and whatever is hiding the flips. Even if some of those things overlap or Az is lying and possess one of those abilities that’s still too much unclaimed for Tom to take everything at face value.
Rodemy, again, do you have information that indicates Tom has more to his role than just being neighbors with you?
My Jail ability both protects a target from kills, and roleblocks them, as is standard for a jailer ability, not irregular at all. It has nothing to do with whatever affected DV, the only reason it could have is if he had been a vig. This is another point where Tom is just playing dumb in a “try to look townie” way.I think one of Terry/AE should rolecop Az and the other should rolecop Vezo. If for some reason we don’t lynch Tom today, then rolecop him instead of vezo.
like, where am I assuming everyone is telling the truth when I'm literally going through trying to figure out who's lying?
When I said vezok was town if his role was real? She. I added that it only applies if az is truthful too?
Like, wtf is this?
I'm not going to vote for tom. He is my strongest town read.
vote terry
He has acted with ulterior motives in every single situation. The fact that he didn't claim he targeted tom makes absolutely no sense.
He saw he was a neighbour and just that. He then waited for tom to claim until confirming the role.
There's 2 situations.
1) Tom is town and terry's play is just bad.
2) Tom is scum and terry wanted to catch him in a lie, because he expected a scum neighbour to fakeclaim, This makes no sense as tom has no reason to fakeclaim as scum if his role is actually neighbour.
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My only real hesitation with joe is how little info we have for no flips. Like. If he's scum dv/rodemy would be all but confirmed and I'd have to at least move up arch a little as the only other way to get role information.
But i guess that assumes iso would balance no flip the same way I would/witchhunts do.
And frankly not checking AZ AND voting me when he knows I'm just a neighbor in what seems to be role madness is too much proof he's not using his role like town would
I know shadow is lying about how his ability worked.
I asked Iso about it.
Shadow 100% is the reason I couldn't target Tom.
Vote Shadow
I mean...
Just for reference, when I was inventor in 4 horseman and wanted to give out a JK and didn't explain what I wanted any further, iso gave out "Once per Night, you may target a player. All abilities that player uses will fail on the Night that you target them. All abilities that target that player will fail on the Night that you target them."
I know shadow is lying about how his ability worked.
I asked Iso about it.
Shadow 100% is the reason I couldn't target Tom.
Vote Shadow
I mean...
Just for reference, when I was inventor in 4 horseman and wanted to give out a JK and didn't explain what I wanted any further, iso gave out "Once per Night, you may target a player. All abilities that player uses will fail on the Night that you target them. All abilities that target that player will fail on the Night that you target them."
So...
"My Jail ability both protects a target from kills, and roleblocks them, as is standard for a jailer ability, not irregular at all. It has nothing to do with whatever affected DV, the only reason it could have is if he had been a vig. This is another point where Tom is just playing dumb in a “try to look townie” way."
Which isn't what Iso said at all when I asked him if I targeted someone who was Jailed.
Shadow hasn't checked or is hiding it. Yet is fear mongering other abilities.
But What’s the point of even having you alive let alone confirm your role? Best case scenario you don’t count against our wincon worst case you make us lose.
Forgot to address this earlier. I don't just "not count against your wincon." My existence actively prevents the scum from winning, and as confirmed non-mafia, I'd be more of an asset than most of the uncleared townies. By way of example, which town is going to have an easier time winning; A town with 5 town, 1 mafia, or a town with 4 town, one player as confirmed neutral, vs one mafia? Would you rather have 5 scum possibilities, or 6?
If joe confirming I'm just a neighbor and then voting me isn't a scumclaim, I'm not really sure what is unvote, vote joe
This is a terrible wagon
You are not wrong about that. Vote: Terry. But you still have completely failed in your own defense and wagoning also, so...yeah, still wouldn't mind your dying right after him.
If joe confirming I'm just a neighbor and then voting me isn't a scumclaim, I'm not really sure what is unvote, vote joe
This is a terrible wagon
You are not wrong about that. Vote: Terry. But you still have completely failed in your own defense and wagoning also, so...yeah, still wouldn't mind your dying right after him.
I hadn’t checked that functionality because it’s written pretty clearly to specify protection from kills and blocking my target, but I’m checking with Iso now.
Also, if Iso comes back and corrects me on my role, I’ll Vote Terry, if he’s town I will be flabbergasted. Kind of think maybe he and Tom are scum/scum and Tom prevents the flips so Terry’s awkwardly bussing, but eh.
@shadow: Does your jailer ability only prevent kills on the target?
Correct, my target is both protected from dying and roleblocked.
@tom: Either your role does something else or someone roleblcked DV.
gonna go ahead and wait for him to confirm.
Also still waiting on Terry to claim target
I, however, am just a neighbor
I confirm this. Tom was my N1 target, BUT my ability specifically says I learn that player's non-factional abilities at the beginning of the next Day and out of the blue ISO PMed me a couple days ago and clarified that non-factional refers to abilities not granted as a result of alignment, then he used the example of the mafia nightkill or a SK nightkill.
I mean that's how I always read it anyway, but the timing of his unprompted clarification was interesting. My gut says that ISO may very well have just made two town neighbors, but the balance seems off and under powering Tom. Tom's role specifically says that he does not know the alignment of his neighbor, which seems odd in a scum pm, but it could just be standard wording.
just gonna be real with y'all
I think this post hard clears me of being mafia by itself.
This is a no vanilla game, and 1 scum is nothing but a neighbor? Don't think anyone would believe that.
So unless I'm scum with Terry, I'm town.
But then, why the **** is he trying to warp modspew to make me look like SK?
Like I guess technically I still could be SK? But there's nothing pointing to it except the dying ravings of a probable mutineer. And pretty sure I'm as close as I can reasonably be to lock clear rn
Kind of think maybe he and Tom are scum/scum and Tom prevents the flips so Terry’s awkwardly bussing, but eh.
no, you don't really think that.
I could forgive missing the SK thing I just posted about. But I cannot forgive you, in particular, thinking my day 2 push on him was bussing.
Kind of think maybe he and Tom are scum/scum and Tom prevents the flips so Terry’s awkwardly bussing, but eh.
no, you don't really think that.
I could forgive missing the SK thing I just posted about. But I cannot forgive you, in particular, thinking my day 2 push on him was bussing.
Frankly I need to read that again because I don’t remember your push on him. Part of it is I think your play looks much more like daft scum!tom that can get away with whatever the crap you want, and I’m not ready to eat crow and say you’re just town.
Whatever, it doesn’t make a difference, either I’m going to get lynched in a hilarious twist of irony (not likely) or we’re going to lynch scum Terry, and someone can rolecop me for giggles to read the role PM I received and see why I was mistaken.
I confirm this. Tom was my N1 target, BUT my ability specifically says I learn that player's non-factional abilities at the beginning of the next Day and out of the blue ISO PMed me a couple days ago and clarified that non-factional refers to abilities not granted as a result of alignment, then he used the example of the mafia nightkill or a SK nightkill.
I mean that's how I always read it anyway, but the timing of his unprompted clarification was interesting. My gut says that ISO may very well have just made two town neighbors, but the balance seems off and under powering Tom. Tom's role specifically says that he does not know the alignment of his neighbor, which seems odd in a scum pm, but it could just be standard wording.
Vote: SJT
Sitting on Tom's claim that long then trying to use it as a gotcha just feels like a scum move. I just really dislike trying to conflate low power with out of place and scummy. It's not like a neighbor with a NK is suddenly a a powerful row.
To be clear, I will not answer questions about another player's role. If you ask me a question without clarifying specifics of a role, I will be as vague as possible in answering you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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^^ Add that quote to previous reply... don't know how I deleted the quote part last time.
DV claiming watcher and his targets make me feel a lot better about him. Plus him getting roleblocked is another good sign. He's close to Kazin and Tom now for me. I'm also feeling better about Shadow. 1326 in particular reads well to me. His back and forth with Rodemy in it reads well and shows critical thinking that I'm liking. His wondering if Rod knows more about tom's role and his kraken spec definitely feel like game solving.
Tom and Kazin both voting AE is interesting to me. They're my two top town reads, but I definitely felt that AE was townier in his interaction with Terry earlier. But I guess since SJT's likely town now, I should reevaluate AE. I'll try to do that tonight. Full ISO on AE incoming.
On another note:
@Tom why is Vezok's role possibly clearing? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Not a train of thought I can follow.
So bp would have no utility for scum.
But...
Az could have kp
So it's kinda meh
You should be lynching the obv scum, scum role cop. He is cleanly, clearly caught.
But now you want to murder AE the townie who has a role cop ability?!
You dont want to trust me on terry?
Fine, I could be wrong. So leave them both alive, have them both target me. Let's see how badly the scum want to get a mislynch on me, while tangling with a watcher, to boot. Will be enlightening how they choose to play that and/or have terry lie about it.
But before you let Tom the "I'm totally almost vanilla" neighor talk you into creating a chain lynch scenario by murdering one of the people able to truthfully verify my claim, preventing you from derp lynching the neutral off of pure paranoia, I would love you guys to maybe, just maybe think ABOUT ACTUALLY USING YOUR ROLE COP(S) ON ME, instead of just going "oh noes, he might kill us, better investigate by stabbing him!"
First why is terry obvious scum? I thought he was, but I liked the way he backed off my "slip" feels like scum terry could have easily stayed in that and no one would have blinked twice. And how does using both our role cops on you clear anything up? In that case wouldn't they both just tell the truth? I agree that Terry should have targeted you earlier, but spending both on you now doesn't seem like it clears anything up. Also what's specifically townie about AE? I haven't started my reread of him yet, but I want to know what you're seeing. He's not left much of an impression on me.
@Tom the implication being he wouldn't lie when he knows there's two role cops out there? I guess that makes sense. I was looking at it from the prespective that since Shadow and I claimed protectives he could very well be lying. After all there seems to be a missing RB targeting DV. But I guess the vanilla'ing could be considered the scum teams RB role. Set up gaming is really hard without flips... I feel like knowing Rhand's would make this a lot easier.
Come on, man. Your scum rep is better than this.
I mean, from the town's perspective, I guess that makes him a fabulous target for a role investigation also, as that would clear him. So I suppose you all could just pretend that Terry was too dense to use his role cop on me to try to catch me in an outright lie, and pretend that he will give truthful results and should live two more days.
Sadly though, I think you are now in the predicament of either counting on scum role cop to be truthful to you, or picking to clear either me, or Vez. But of course, vez is only cleared if you verify I can't kill. Haha! So you guys do have to target me.
Ok, ok. So here is how you should play it. Rolecops on me as first priority. Double cop me, to be sure, since my investigation is more critical to verify I'm not a killer who needs Insta-lynched and I'm the key to clearing vez, too.
Then, Terry, if you foolishly allow him to live, has to make a tough choice. Does he try to gambit versus vez and lie about vez not being bulletproof? If he does, he trades one for one with vez. Or, he has to verify Vez as truthful cleared for you.
Boom. Two cleared trees for the town, even if Terry is scum (which he clearly is).
But I'm more interested in archmage/Joe wagons.
Oh and didn't shadow say he jailed me? I assume that's what blocked DV
(And yes, we're talking about confirmed unless exactly scum with joeterry/archmage)
Vezok being bulletproof and nothing more? Maybe. That would make him the only vanilla basically? Like, a role that does ~nothing (except grapes ability directing a kill back IF he performs the kill + a possible AZ kill) in a setup where everyone is something? Nah.
Could probably make the same argiment for me, if it was confirmed I was neighbor and nothing more. But don't really think I need it.
Confirming that AZ is nothing more than he claims could be a thing. But, like, pretty low reward tbh.
Everyone else has roles that could ~conceivably be either. Different likelihoods, and lying would be outing for most people
Shadow confirmed that his jailer ability only blocks kills.
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That would be an extremely atypical jk
@Tom I now get what you're saying about Vezok. And that line of thinking makes sense if no other kills pop up. Kazin showing up vanilla would too, but that's defintiely not worth it, since he's already basically clear anyway. Rodemy would be clearing if he showed up as census taker and neighbor, but also doesn't seem worth it since Rod is basically always town anyway. The rest can go either way I think.
@tom: Either your role does something else or someone roleblcked DV.
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And frankly if we do that's probably where the other should be pointed imo.
But when it comes right down to it I'm not comfortable eliminating arch/terry/vezok as a viable team, much less vezok and 1 of the 2.
Why are you feeling good about rodemy?
I was pretty high on him earlier but this "abandon me in the neighborhood and push me for weakass reasons in thread" is... let's just say not my favorite
Like I know that sound *****ty sort of.
But I'm not not lynching Azreal by tomorrow.
And frankly Azreal probabally stole KA's soul.
Also we had another role cop esk in KA.
So yeah.
Also still waiting on Terry to claim target
I, however, am just a neighbor
Much like arch is only one because Joe targeted him.
Which...
I mean
Duplicator
Absorber
AND kazin's motivator thing pre vanillizement?
Nah
And Kami got killed right after the claim, so probably town?
Is another solid reason to just lynch arch though.
Do kind of agree with you that if we don't lynch one of them it kinda points straight to AZ
I’m absolutely certain that Tom is better than he’s playing; his setup gaming assumes that everyone is telling the truth, despite the fact that we have an unclaimed Vanillaizor, roleblocker, kraken/redirector, and whatever is hiding the flips. Even if some of those things overlap or Az is lying and possess one of those abilities that’s still too much unclaimed for Tom to take everything at face value.
Rodemy, again, do you have information that indicates Tom has more to his role than just being neighbors with you?
My Jail ability both protects a target from kills, and roleblocks them, as is standard for a jailer ability, not irregular at all. It has nothing to do with whatever affected DV, the only reason it could have is if he had been a vig. This is another point where Tom is just playing dumb in a “try to look townie” way.
I think one of Terry/AE should rolecop Az and the other should rolecop Vezo. If for some reason we don’t lynch Tom today, then rolecop him instead of vezo.
1B. Instead, he investigated AE, the number #1 priority target for the scum to rolecop. AE mentioned publicly that the town's neutral should target him. Now, if you're the scum team, and you're trying to navigate around town power, and not get blown up, AE becomes a prime target for the scum to investigate. Because if he has an ability that can be used to good effect against people who target him, you want to make absolutely sure you're not walking into a landmine with him. For the town, not a priority target, because if it does something awful, such as killing somebody, AE's clearly going to have to talk about it at some point, because he already went on record as having a power role and solicited someone to hit him with it. But for a scum team with targeted abilities, trying to figure out who they can safely mess with? Absolutely, you role-cop the hell out of AE to protect your other team members.
1C. Add to that Terry's awful hammer/voting/suspicion record, and you've got yourselves a slam-dunk Terry scum case.
That's why I'm advocating both Terry and AE target me. Because I don't trust Terry further than I can through him, and we've had a TON of people claim to be redirected or manipulated during the night.
2. The benefit of confirming my role-claim should be obvious (especially to Tom). If I'm not a killing neutral, and I just have the abilities I claimed, there's no way as a neutral survivor I should be a lynch target. It also allows you to look elsewhere for mafia, and it allows you to clear Vez of all suspicion, resulting in a bulletproof, clear townie. Two cleared slots, one of them bulletproof, is a pretty awesome return for a couple of role cop shots. Or, Terry lies, and you net a scum instead. That's cool too.
3A. Tom's also scum. He botched his role-claim, claiming to be only a neighborizer.
3B. He forgot to take into account that Vez could be lying about being bulletproof, and was ready to instantly confirm him just for saying that he had it. That's the kind of blithe faith in claims that the scum put into townie claims, not the healthy level of suspicion that townies bear regarding unverified claims, especially from loose cannon, unpredictable players like Vez.
3C. Look at how he's shifted course on me - going from declaring me a distant iceberg, to baseless speculation that I might need killed because I *could* have a killing role.
3D. His wagons. Are terrible. I'm not paying that close attention, but my recollection is that with both our lynches he's pushed two really obvious townies to death, power-wolfing style.
You realize that you guys have the ability to verify that I only have a single soul for the rest of the game, right? Just continue to target me with a non-kill ability. If it resolves, I only have one soul. You can do that again tonight, and confirm that I still have only one, and verify my role as claimed as well.
Then you lynch obv-scum tom today, and obv-scum terry tomorrow, pick off your final scum shortly after, and everyone's happy.
vote: Tom.
I mean that's how I always read it anyway, but the timing of his unprompted clarification was interesting. My gut says that ISO may very well have just made two town neighbors, but the balance seems off and under powering Tom. Tom's role specifically says that he does not know the alignment of his neighbor, which seems odd in a scum pm, but it could just be standard wording.
I may throw down a vote on Tom shortly. Need to check VC.
I think thats L-2 @4 votes.
tomsloger (4): Rodemy, shadowlancerx, Azrael, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (L-2)
vezokpiraka (1): Grapefruit21
Archmage Eternal (2): tomsloger, Kazin Drake
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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The deadline expires on March 15th at 1300 hours.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
unvote, vote joe
This is a terrible wagon
When I said vezok was town if his role was real? She. I added that it only applies if az is truthful too?
Like, wtf is this?
vote terry
He has acted with ulterior motives in every single situation. The fact that he didn't claim he targeted tom makes absolutely no sense.
He saw he was a neighbour and just that. He then waited for tom to claim until confirming the role.
There's 2 situations.
1) Tom is town and terry's play is just bad.
2) Tom is scum and terry wanted to catch him in a lie, because he expected a scum neighbour to fakeclaim, This makes no sense as tom has no reason to fakeclaim as scum if his role is actually neighbour.
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But i guess that assumes iso would balance no flip the same way I would/witchhunts do.
And frankly not checking AZ AND voting me when he knows I'm just a neighbor in what seems to be role madness is too much proof he's not using his role like town would
I asked Iso about it.
Shadow 100% is the reason I couldn't target Tom.
Vote Shadow
Just for reference, when I was inventor in 4 horseman and wanted to give out a JK and didn't explain what I wanted any further, iso gave out "Once per Night, you may target a player. All abilities that player uses will fail on the Night that you target them. All abilities that target that player will fail on the Night that you target them."
So...
"My Jail ability both protects a target from kills, and roleblocks them, as is standard for a jailer ability, not irregular at all. It has nothing to do with whatever affected DV, the only reason it could have is if he had been a vig. This is another point where Tom is just playing dumb in a “try to look townie” way."
Which isn't what Iso said at all when I asked him if I targeted someone who was Jailed.
Shadow hasn't checked or is hiding it. Yet is fear mongering other abilities.
Forgot to address this earlier. I don't just "not count against your wincon." My existence actively prevents the scum from winning, and as confirmed non-mafia, I'd be more of an asset than most of the uncleared townies. By way of example, which town is going to have an easier time winning; A town with 5 town, 1 mafia, or a town with 4 town, one player as confirmed neutral, vs one mafia? Would you rather have 5 scum possibilities, or 6?
You are not wrong about that. Vote: Terry. But you still have completely failed in your own defense and wagoning also, so...yeah, still wouldn't mind your dying right after him.
But I'm definitely defaulting to iso's JK modmeta
And you think I'm scum with Terry or shadow?
Also, if Iso comes back and corrects me on my role, I’ll Vote Terry, if he’s town I will be flabbergasted. Kind of think maybe he and Tom are scum/scum and Tom prevents the flips so Terry’s awkwardly bussing, but eh.
If this is how my record of not getting lynched as town except in micros gets ruined I’ll be ticked.
Vote Terry
I think this post hard clears me of being mafia by itself.
This is a no vanilla game, and 1 scum is nothing but a neighbor? Don't think anyone would believe that.
So unless I'm scum with Terry, I'm town.
But then, why the **** is he trying to warp modspew to make me look like SK?
Like I guess technically I still could be SK? But there's nothing pointing to it except the dying ravings of a probable mutineer. And pretty sure I'm as close as I can reasonably be to lock clear rn
I could forgive missing the SK thing I just posted about. But I cannot forgive you, in particular, thinking my day 2 push on him was bussing.
Vote: SJT
Sitting on Tom's claim that long then trying to use it as a gotcha just feels like a scum move. I just really dislike trying to conflate low power with out of place and scummy. It's not like a neighbor with a NK is suddenly a a powerful row.
Basically /barn what Tom is saying.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player