Grape has now confirmed his role unless he's scum with shadow, and I don't think there's any world where that team needs to do a no kill gambit.
The role itself could technically be scum. Would be a way to stop someone getting protected?
But there's another day use flavor ability, and it was used the same day as grape's. And went unclaimed.
So I think we can be sure beyond reasonable doubt that grape is 1 as claimed 2 town even before the behavior, which has also been town as *****.
Shadow is town jailkeeper unless he no killed last night. And I think it was too early to go for that as he's have to explain not dying for however much longer he needs to and frankly in most situations where that's even viable it would be better to claim to have blocked someone since apparently this is a no flip game.
And even in those worlds I think the unalignments with dawn, joe/rodemy unless he targeted DV n2 instead of me and if he's with any of DV/grape/kazin they'd already have the win without doing the no kill tbh so I wanna say the only viable team is, like, 2 of [vezok/dota/arch] which isn't impossible I guess but still think that would have meant claiming to have blocked rodemy ftw.
I guess if exactly dota/vezok today wouldn't be lylo so he could save that for the next day but why not just kill DV last night?
So I never really got there on behavior which is expected at this point but the hoops you have to go through to live in a scumshadow world are getting really numerous
And DV is still behavior + claim fitting perfectly and just being something town ******* needed he maybe moves down a percentage point or two because I thought he'd be the kill but that's probably silly because I was basing that assumption on me personally being unsure of shadow and from a scum perspective either one is a perfectly valid kill if town so it really shouldn't.
And kazin is a months old read based on a derp and getting vanillized day 1 which just fully makes sense but I should really look again. Arch was the other target of that ability and the weirdness there and maybe it's fake idk but it seems like a good sign.
Vezok/rodemy I've had reasons to townread them both but none of them really seem that impressive if we're talking dead archmage and game still going. Not sure I could honestly say id lynch either over AZ though...
Arch's claim feels the most scum balance wise, the vanilla makes no sense with archtown except "it was Joes ability and he thought people would keep him alive to rolecop someone if there were no other options" and his whole yesterday was just opportunistic.
So, overall:
rhand/kami/grape
shadow
DV/kazin
rodemy/vezok dota
archmage/dawn joe
@Tom: your plan assumes none of me/DV/Grape get Vanilla’d today, but overall I think it’s good. I think our best move is to let Grape use his ability close to end of day, and then we hammer the lynch immediately afterward.
I hate not knowing for sure if Terry was scum, his twilight is pretty much exactly as I expect he’d do as town, but also perfect as scum in a no flip situation.
@DV: Do you really think there’s only one scum left that strongly?
Hi if shadow is scum he has to have intentionally no killed when he could have just killed DV and never had to worry about a town role again
And if they are scum together they didn't need to do anything, even if their third was archmage one of them could have claimed a guilty on me/rodemy/vezok and won.
And if it's just the two of them they could do the same by lynching arch today and claiming a guilty tomorrow
And frankly if you believe self targeting is against the rules what the hell do you think grapes role does?
Hi if shadow is scum he has to have intentionally no killed when he could have just killed DV and never had to worry about a town role again
And if they are scum together they didn't need to do anything, even if their third was archmage one of them could have claimed a guilty on me/rodemy/vezok and won.
And if it's just the two of them they could do the same by lynching arch today and claiming a guilty tomorrow
And frankly if you believe self targeting is against the rules what the hell do you think grapes role does?
Get the **** off shadow
No.
Jailing yourself is against mafia game rules, not self targeting.
His role is probably a prevent nightkill or even a vanilla beam.
It's would be super ****in broken if shadow targeted every mirrored player and essentially gained immunity from everything.
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Also, what part of d_v and shadow are scum together did you not get?
Shadow can't be confirmed because Terry is dead (his doing) and d_v watched tom last night ( or so he implied) when he logically should have targetted who he thought was scum.
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And also, no he should have been watching a possible NK target not a scumread. Targeting shadow makes sense.
And again, what you're claiming is against the rules is the only way it makes sense with grapes role And I don't understand how you think that should have been resolved
Shadow is either Gambiting super hard this game. Or hes town.
His next post?
If what happened actually happened, and shadow did indeed jail himself, why would he have any doubt shadow is town?
But none of this matters because shadow is lying about being a jailer so the resolution would never happen, nor do i believe jailer and mirrorizer would ever be approved together in a game.
If so, that's pretty broken and i can't believe i am playing in a broken game.
I could be wrong, but with what i know and read (yes, i did research.) Jailers cannot self target.
Idfk anymore. I give up.
unvote vote ae
See ya in 2 days
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Currently worried that if shadow is, in fact, gambiting scum i had to defend him from this push based on misunderstanding mechanics and won't actually be able to figure that out now
Unless DV and shadow are both scum, it seems that shadow actually protected himself. Weird game.
In the mafiawiki, if you look up the jailer role it says and i ****in quote:
"Because it is a roleblocker, jailer is never allowed to self-target"
Questions? Concerns? Objections?
Yes, basically no role can innately self target, that’s how the game works. Grapefruits role causes anyone to who tries to target the person he picked to self target. And it’s not like the roleblock and doctor abilities are separate, it’s all one thing. Why don’t you ask Iso the hypothetical “If a jailer where to somehow target themselves, what would happen?
Seconding all of that. Doctors aren't allowed to self doc, but it's patently obvious a doc would self target if they attempted to protect the player I targeted. Don't think of it as being blocked and protecting himself at the same time. Think of it as jailer ability fired, swab the deck bounces, and original player blocked from being kill or impacted by other abilities.
Anyway I reread all of my work on AE and his ISO over night and I'm confident he's scum. That means he's not the only scum alive (because he's been vanilla'd and I refuse to believe no flips are inherent to this game), but for now I just want AE dead. He was lying yesterday and got his story wrong. When Terry fast hammered Dota scum planned overnight how to handle the following day and they botched it. AE's progression about what he thought happened with targets just doesn't add up.
Yeah I'm reasonably down to just lynch archmage, but grape I think you should unvote so when it's time to fire off your ability you can do it and then hammer or something
Yeah I'm reasonably down to just lynch archmage, but grape I think you should unvote so when it's time to fire off your ability you can do it and then hammer or something
So from the read I'm getting... I would try to say that normally I'd agree with you Rodemy about the Jailer role being unable to self target. In this case I think it's a weird kind of power line-up. It also works fine if we consider that it took everyone openly claiming everything for the jailer/mirror combo to even be discovered... otherwise it was a shot in the dark on who to target for "self protection." But even if we take that a step further and say that it is possible and that this perfect storm of nonsense leads to a self-targeting jailer... That just means that he's found a way to protect himself so long as everything else that builds that foundation is in play... including the "mirror" for him to use. Nah... As strange as it all is, it does make sense to me because it's broken so long as the duo/combo exists, but only for that long. I'm curious to hear what others have to say... But I am not sure I believe that we are down to only one scum. Seems unlikely we were that efficient in a no flip scenario, and Iso's flavor of "Not by a long shot" seems to me to think that there's at least 2... maybe more?
Also for shadow not to be able to self redirect the team pretty much has to be DV+Shadow and they have to have chosen to forgo a NK to sell us on shadow being town. Shadow has run a very similar gambit before in overwatch mafia so this is explicitly inside his range, but I don't believe it's the move here. If the team is shadow and DV they were probably fairly close to winning anyway and don't need the theatrics.
Does anyone think AE is town? I feel like he's caught red handed and I can't even get people to look twice at him.
Anyway if AE is scum with SJT (which I'm about 75% sure is the world we're in) that means there is a third scum alive. It can't be anyone who is vanilla'd because AE's vanilla'd too and they need something that prevents flips. So Kazin moves from mostly derp cleared to fully IC'd in that world.
Shadow is soft cleared by DV proving his role since they can't be scum together in that team due to only 3 scum via Rodemy and being a jailer + janitor seems crazy strong as a scum role. DV is squishy wine cleared because why would he confirm shadow's ability if he were scum. Especially knowing that his partner is under serious pressure.
Az is nuetral and his existence and lack of scum team slots soft clears Rod. Too crazy of a gambit for Rod to fake census taker and "confirm" Az if Az is a neutral and Rod is scum. In that scenario it opens Rod up to getting blindsided by Az thunderdoming him and claiming he was town all along. And Rod being town soft confirms Az as neutral.
That leaves tom and Vezo as the possibilities. I have tom as strongly town on behavior so I think Vezok is the obvious choice for last scum with the AE/Terry team. Time to see if there are any interactions I'm forgetting that submarines this as a possibility.
I'll also reread tom at some point, but I don't have time today and he's been very townie by behavior in my book.
Iso's flavor of "Not by a long shot" seems to me to think that there's at least 2... maybe more?
I like this. Not necessarily as a flavor-based gamestate read but I definitely like kazin making it.
I still don't want to concede that dawn was town but
I think arch is both the most likely Joe buddy by behavior AND the most likely scum by role if joe town since scum would have to have a way to learn roles to go with the vanillizer, so given the nature of no flip it seems a pretty ideal lynch regardless.
After that it's much less clear but I'm ok with that if we get a watch and both our important PRs are protected
Yeah, I think Archmage is likely just scum here. Also, I like the. Plan that keeps DV and me alive, but to whom it may concern (wine incoming): I might totally jail someone else, even though that would leave me open to death. Might.
If you’re town you do not get to walk away. Talk to me about what went through your head when reading Terry’s posts during twilight? Think he was scum?
Give me a readlist.
~~~
Someone should maybe Unvote since we do have three votes on AE and I’m not done with him. Yes, I want to lynch him, but not yet.
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Unless DV and shadow are both scum, it seems that shadow actually protected himself. Weird game.
In the mafiawiki, if you look up the jailer role it says and i ****in quote:
"Because it is a roleblocker, jailer is never allowed to self-target"
Questions? Concerns? Objections?
Yes, basically no role can innately self target, that’s how the game works. Grapefruits role causes anyone to who tries to target the person he picked to self target. And it’s not like the roleblock and doctor abilities are separate, it’s all one thing. Why don’t you ask Iso the hypothetical “If a jailer where to somehow target themselves, what would happen?
My concern is the "roleblock" part of that. You would roleblock yourself essentially not being able to protect yourself.
You can't just fire at the mirror and ONLY get the protect. Its protect/roleblock. Which means you roleblock yourself as well. Which, in order of operations, supersedes protect.
It's broken because essentially you are unkillable at night. And who here actually believes that scenario made it past review?
Does your role prevent your target from other abilities as well?
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Unless DV and shadow are both scum, it seems that shadow actually protected himself. Weird game.
In the mafiawiki, if you look up the jailer role it says and i ****in quote:
"Because it is a roleblocker, jailer is never allowed to self-target"
Questions? Concerns? Objections?
Yes, basically no role can innately self target, that’s how the game works. Grapefruits role causes anyone to who tries to target the person he picked to self target. And it’s not like the roleblock and doctor abilities are separate, it’s all one thing. Why don’t you ask Iso the hypothetical “If a jailer where to somehow target themselves, what would happen?
My concern is the "roleblock" part of that. You would roleblock yourself essentially not being able to protect yourself.
You can't just fire at the mirror and ONLY get the protect. Its protect/roleblock. Which means you roleblock yourself as well. Which, in order of operations, supersedes protect.
It's broken because essentially you are unkillable at night. And who here actually believes that scenario made it past review?
Does your role prevent your target from other abilities as well?
K literally go ask Iso what would happen if a Jailer somehow targeted himself.
And yes, we’ve been over this, my target will be immune to all actions against them, This was a major point a while ago.
Honestly I've tried to explain this to rodemy in our neighborhood but I'm out of crayons.
He could be scum just struggling against the closing POE but I think he could still be town too idk man I hope the game ends with arch so we can start being salty at iso already
I think the last scum has to be either AE or Rodemy.
I don't think anyone else would take Shadow as a jailer and Me as a watcher into end game.
Because who else sees either of us as an easy miss lynch?
Maybe Vez, Kazin or Tom?
Vez IDK maybe.
Kazin might see me as an easy miss lynch, but at this point and the way the Vanilla went off I'm pretty certain Kazin is town.
Tom could be playing some sort of insane end game here. I doubt it.
What if the Vanillizer role can fake being targeted by the vanillizer? Would explain the bizarre one yesterday.
Grape has now confirmed his role unless he's scum with shadow, and I don't think there's any world where that team needs to do a no kill gambit.
The role itself could technically be scum. Would be a way to stop someone getting protected?
But there's another day use flavor ability, and it was used the same day as grape's. And went unclaimed.
So I think we can be sure beyond reasonable doubt that grape is 1 as claimed 2 town even before the behavior, which has also been town as *****.
Shadow is town jailkeeper unless he no killed last night. And I think it was too early to go for that as he's have to explain not dying for however much longer he needs to and frankly in most situations where that's even viable it would be better to claim to have blocked someone since apparently this is a no flip game.
And even in those worlds I think the unalignments with dawn, joe/rodemy unless he targeted DV n2 instead of me and if he's with any of DV/grape/kazin they'd already have the win without doing the no kill tbh so I wanna say the only viable team is, like, 2 of [vezok/dota/arch] which isn't impossible I guess but still think that would have meant claiming to have blocked rodemy ftw.
I guess if exactly dota/vezok today wouldn't be lylo so he could save that for the next day but why not just kill DV last night?
So I never really got there on behavior which is expected at this point but the hoops you have to go through to live in a scumshadow world are getting really numerous
And DV is still behavior + claim fitting perfectly and just being something town ******* needed he maybe moves down a percentage point or two because I thought he'd be the kill but that's probably silly because I was basing that assumption on me personally being unsure of shadow and from a scum perspective either one is a perfectly valid kill if town so it really shouldn't.
And kazin is a months old read based on a derp and getting vanillized day 1 which just fully makes sense but I should really look again. Arch was the other target of that ability and the weirdness there and maybe it's fake idk but it seems like a good sign.
Vezok/rodemy I've had reasons to townread them both but none of them really seem that impressive if we're talking dead archmage and game still going. Not sure I could honestly say id lynch either over AZ though...
Arch's claim feels the most scum balance wise, the vanilla makes no sense with archtown except "it was Joes ability and he thought people would keep him alive to rolecop someone if there were no other options" and his whole yesterday was just opportunistic.
So, overall:
rhand/kami/grapeshadow
DV/kazin
rodemy/vezok
dotaarchmage/
dawnjoeShadow tom d_v
vote shadow
Scum have to know that doesnt work.
Tom is cleared.
We all knew tom was mirrorized last night. We all knew shadow claimed jailer.
Shadow targets tom. Shadow roleblocks himself... it just doesnt make any ****in sense.
D_v watches tom (because duh) sees shadow target tom. Confirms in thread.
So d_v.. since we all knew tom wouldnt be targeted by a kill, or any negative action, why did you target him?
unvote
I hate not knowing for sure if Terry was scum, his twilight is pretty much exactly as I expect he’d do as town, but also perfect as scum in a no flip situation.
@DV: Do you really think there’s only one scum left that strongly?
Jailer roleblocks and prevents nightdeath.
JAILER CANNOT SELF TARGET
JAILER CANNOT SELF TARGET.
JAiler cannot self target.
Technically, shadow self targeted.
So he became a "commuter?" Which.. no?
He roleblocks and protects.
Roleblocking trumps protect.
So he targets tom
Mirrors to himself.
Roleblocks... cant protect.
Do you see my delemma?
vote shadow
Jailers can't self target. You self targeted by jailing tom.
Against the rules, and i dont think that was overlooked.
D-v is scum with shadow.
I sat on my butt, still at 1 soul.
Still think i was the only soul you needed.
But that is speculation at best
Lets kill shadow plz.
And if they are scum together they didn't need to do anything, even if their third was archmage one of them could have claimed a guilty on me/rodemy/vezok and won.
And if it's just the two of them they could do the same by lynching arch today and claiming a guilty tomorrow
And frankly if you believe self targeting is against the rules what the hell do you think grapes role does?
Get the **** off shadow
No.
Jailing yourself is against mafia game rules, not self targeting.
His role is probably a prevent nightkill or even a vanilla beam.
It's would be super ****in broken if shadow targeted every mirrored player and essentially gained immunity from everything.
Shadow can't be confirmed because Terry is dead (his doing) and d_v watched tom last night ( or so he implied) when he logically should have targetted who he thought was scum.
And also, no he should have been watching a possible NK target not a scumread. Targeting shadow makes sense.
And again, what you're claiming is against the rules is the only way it makes sense with grapes role And I don't understand how you think that should have been resolved
Logically he claims to have targeted shadow, right?
Then why is this..
His next post?
If what happened actually happened, and shadow did indeed jail himself, why would he have any doubt shadow is town?
But none of this matters because shadow is lying about being a jailer so the resolution would never happen, nor do i believe jailer and mirrorizer would ever be approved together in a game.
If so, that's pretty broken and i can't believe i am playing in a broken game.
I could be wrong, but with what i know and read (yes, i did research.) Jailers cannot self target.
Idfk anymore. I give up.
unvote vote ae
See ya in 2 days
Its free info.
Yeah I targeted Shadow. My other real option was Grape.
I almost targeted Azreal but I didn't really want to **** with that over finding the nk.
I flipped a coin.
Currently waiting on AE to post.
Unless DV and shadow are both scum, it seems that shadow actually protected himself. Weird game.
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In the mafiawiki, if you look up the jailer role it says and i ****in quote:
"Because it is a roleblocker, jailer is never allowed to self-target"
Questions? Concerns? Objections?
Anyway I reread all of my work on AE and his ISO over night and I'm confident he's scum. That means he's not the only scum alive (because he's been vanilla'd and I refuse to believe no flips are inherent to this game), but for now I just want AE dead. He was lying yesterday and got his story wrong. When Terry fast hammered Dota scum planned overnight how to handle the following day and they botched it. AE's progression about what he thought happened with targets just doesn't add up.
Vote: AE
That's fair. Ensure no repeats of D2. Unvote
FoS: ArchmageEternal
"What happens if a jailer was to target a mirror ability?"
Does anyone think AE is town? I feel like he's caught red handed and I can't even get people to look twice at him.
Anyway if AE is scum with SJT (which I'm about 75% sure is the world we're in) that means there is a third scum alive. It can't be anyone who is vanilla'd because AE's vanilla'd too and they need something that prevents flips. So Kazin moves from mostly derp cleared to fully IC'd in that world.
Shadow is soft cleared by DV proving his role since they can't be scum together in that team due to only 3 scum via Rodemy and being a jailer + janitor seems crazy strong as a scum role. DV is squishy wine cleared because why would he confirm shadow's ability if he were scum. Especially knowing that his partner is under serious pressure.
Az is nuetral and his existence and lack of scum team slots soft clears Rod. Too crazy of a gambit for Rod to fake census taker and "confirm" Az if Az is a neutral and Rod is scum. In that scenario it opens Rod up to getting blindsided by Az thunderdoming him and claiming he was town all along. And Rod being town soft confirms Az as neutral.
That leaves tom and Vezo as the possibilities. I have tom as strongly town on behavior so I think Vezok is the obvious choice for last scum with the AE/Terry team. Time to see if there are any interactions I'm forgetting that submarines this as a possibility.
I'll also reread tom at some point, but I don't have time today and he's been very townie by behavior in my book.
I still don't want to concede that dawn was town but
I think arch is both the most likely Joe buddy by behavior AND the most likely scum by role if joe town since scum would have to have a way to learn roles to go with the vanillizer, so given the nature of no flip it seems a pretty ideal lynch regardless.
After that it's much less clear but I'm ok with that if we get a watch and both our important PRs are protected
vote archmage
Lynch him, mirror DV, shadow can protect himself, scum can realistically only kill in grape/kazin>>>me/rod, which DV gets to watch inside.
It's great.
Vote ArchmageEternal
And once the ability fires #nobreaks imo
They hate us cause they ain't us.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Give me a readlist.
~~~
Someone should maybe Unvote since we do have three votes on AE and I’m not done with him. Yes, I want to lynch him, but not yet.
Ok...I guess I still live and win when the scum win this game effortlessly.
Archmage Eternal (3): Rodemy, tomsloger, Kazin Drake (L-2)
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
-
The deadline expires on March 30th at 0200 hours.
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Do you have a vanilla shot or are you stuck on vanilla?
My concern is the "roleblock" part of that. You would roleblock yourself essentially not being able to protect yourself.
You can't just fire at the mirror and ONLY get the protect. Its protect/roleblock. Which means you roleblock yourself as well. Which, in order of operations, supersedes protect.
It's broken because essentially you are unkillable at night. And who here actually believes that scenario made it past review?
Does your role prevent your target from other abilities as well?
And yes, we’ve been over this, my target will be immune to all actions against them, This was a major point a while ago.
Honestly I've tried to explain this to rodemy in our neighborhood but I'm out of crayons.
He could be scum just struggling against the closing POE but I think he could still be town too idk man I hope the game ends with arch so we can start being salty at iso already