You know what, no. If you think that you, the most disrespectful person in this entire thread, get to spit back in my face that I’m not being respectful of you when I have been maintaining my absolute best composure throughout our discourse (save for a couple of fair jabs), you have another thing coming. I don’t care about your alignment anymore, I don’t care about trying to meet you halfway, I am not going to do this.
If you want me to play with you as an equal, you’re going to apologize, and not just to me, but to every single person you’ve insulted against the spirit of the game, whether directly or by implication. Until you do, my vote will stay on you and my responses to you, if they come, will not be for your benefit.
You know what, no. If you think that you, the most disrespectful person in this entire thread, get to spit back in my face that I’m not being respectful of you when I have been maintaining my absolute best composure throughout our discourse (save for a couple of fair jabs), you have another thing coming. I don’t care about your alignment anymore, I don’t care about trying to meet you halfway, I am not going to do this.
If you want me to play with you as an equal, you’re going to apologize, and not just to me, but to every single person you’ve insulted against the spirit of the game, whether directly or by implication. Until you do, my vote will stay on you and my responses to you, if they come, will not be for your benefit.
No you haven't.
You've directly lied. First it was that I "Shat all over the Dawn flavor clear" Then when called out on that you moved it to this more "It was that you were shading Rhand"
Then it was "Shading dawn too" Which I never did.
Which is more aggregious me calling you a liar? Or you literally making things up and putting words in my mouth?
You can appoligize to me. Not the other way around.
Why is it just me that has to go so deep to explain everything?
It's not about providing depth, it's about providing things that make sense. I'd be happy with your posts and opinions if they made sense to me as something a townie was likely do/say/think. That can happen with deep walls, it can happen with one-line posts.
That's not the case right now. You're steadily making things worse. For example, you're misrepresenting - you're saying that I'm attacking you for getting busy, but that's obviously not what I said; I pointed out that the timing corresponded to heat leaving you. And when I bring you up again and increase the heat, lo and behold, you're back and posting and defending yourself again.
People get busy in real life, sure. That's why V/LA exists. People also fake "getting busy" in order to slip under the radar. Why should I believe that you just happened to get busy?
There's a pattern that I think has a name but I don't remember what it's called - when scum gets indignant because they got caught but they think they got caught for the wrong reasons, and they get upset because they think they're doing a good job of looking townie. That's what I'm seeing from your "why is it just me".
How about we don't attack people for being busy? I agree that the disappearance was slightly suspicious, but nothing seems to indicate that Nobue didn't actually have stuff to do. She's posting all the time even when there's attention on her which makes to believe she was actually busy instead of faking it.
I'm really not seeing that pattern here though. New players tend to focus more on their survival as either town or scum. You can't really prove yourself as a good player if you get lynched day 1.
I like tom's vote on kamikaze archon. I don't really want to move there rn though.
Everyone chill out. We are here to play a game and have fun. Don't get mad at each other for playing it.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If survival wins, you're not playing against your wincon to help us. So are you saying survival isn't a wincon? Or that you're going to ignore that wincon entirely, and play poorly if survival is your only viable wincon? I don't believe that you would actually do that - and if you did try, I think you'd just get modkilled.
Oh, I'm totally not playing to my lame win condition. Or at least, I'm trying not to, really really hard. Because survival is 1) Boring and 2) Almost completely dependent on others' actions. But I'm also a competitive person. But I'm also a person who prefers to compete against others than to compete towards arbitrary role goals. So...yeah. Feeling a little torn, a little miffed, hard to excuse actually implementing good play because my role punishes me for good play.
We could lynch Azreal, but I think there is no problem letting him live for the time being.
@Azreal I do have on question for you though. When do you "Steal the soul" of your victim.
At night and upon hammer? Or is this an order of operations question that I have to actually PM the mod about and expend effort upon? Because that sounds annoying.
With that answer it does become an order of operations question. Sorry.
Mostly I want to know when it resolves. Before or after kills in the night.
This guy is definatley planning on doing something to az toNight.
don't see why scum would want to do anything to a neutral. even if they planned that, there's no need to worry since Azrael isn't town. bad reasoning here.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
If survival wins, you're not playing against your wincon to help us. So are you saying survival isn't a wincon? Or that you're going to ignore that wincon entirely, and play poorly if survival is your only viable wincon? I don't believe that you would actually do that - and if you did try, I think you'd just get modkilled.
Oh, I'm totally not playing to my lame win condition. Or at least, I'm trying not to, really really hard. Because survival is 1) Boring and 2) Almost completely dependent on others' actions. But I'm also a competitive person. But I'm also a person who prefers to compete against others than to compete towards arbitrary role goals. So...yeah. Feeling a little torn, a little miffed, hard to excuse actually implementing good play because my role punishes me for good play.
We could lynch Azreal, but I think there is no problem letting him live for the time being.
@Azreal I do have on question for you though. When do you "Steal the soul" of your victim.
At night and upon hammer? Or is this an order of operations question that I have to actually PM the mod about and expend effort upon? Because that sounds annoying.
With that answer it does become an order of operations question. Sorry.
Mostly I want to know when it resolves. Before or after kills in the night.
This guy is definatley planning on doing something to az toNight.
don't see why scum would want to do anything to a neutral. even if they planned that, there's no need to worry since Azrael isn't town. bad reasoning here.
is this proof that rodemy is town since he's not in a scum mindset or...
Oh, I'm totally not playing to my lame win condition. Or at least, I'm trying not to, really really hard. Because survival is 1) Boring and 2) Almost completely dependent on others' actions. But I'm also a competitive person. But I'm also a person who prefers to compete against others than to compete towards arbitrary role goals. So...yeah. Feeling a little torn, a little miffed, hard to excuse actually implementing good play because my role punishes me for good play.
At night and upon hammer? Or is this an order of operations question that I have to actually PM the mod about and expend effort upon? Because that sounds annoying.
With that answer it does become an order of operations question. Sorry.
Mostly I want to know when it resolves. Before or after kills in the night.
This guy is definatley planning on doing something to az toNight.
don't see why scum would want to do anything to a neutral. even if they planned that, there's no need to worry since Azrael isn't town. bad reasoning here.
is this proof that rodemy is town since he's not in a scum mindset or...
this is more proof that he is not town.
since when do scum kill neutrals over town? town won't think like that, that's why we lynch neutrals.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I'm back, just going to be intentionally slightly less engaged. I still think DBS is scum. I need to do more thinking on if I'm willing to lynch a one shot doc, but I think she's the most likely scum on behavoir.
I have no idea how much of Nobue's scumminess is culture clash. The last couple of pages are definitely tense. And I'm sorry I helped take the lid off and start the open animosity. My gut says Nobue is town, but my head is confused.
I'm just going to drop my town tell for tom now: him breaking Gimmick. As scum he's been tied to his gimmick's till the very end. Him breaking it feels like he has so much he wants to say about the game that he can't contain himself, and that feels strongly like a town tell.
Anyway I'd appreciate if everyone pretended my temporary loss of control didn't happen. I got angry at something that was silly to get angry about and that post was 100% the anger talking. Sorry to everyone, and especially sorry Phraze.
I think Shadow does deserve an apology for me calling him arrogant a while back. I was frustrated and that was uncalled for.
However.
Shadow directly said that I shaded both Rhand and Dawn.
Which I clearly never did. Shadow can either A)Prove that I did shade Dawn(At which point I'm wrong and a total ass)
Or B) Can explain why he is lying about that. This isn't misconstruing. IE interpreting something in a wrong manner this is saying I did something that I either factual did or didn't do.
You want to talk about respect? I get people misconstruing arguments. I understand someone saying that they interpreted something differently.
I do not understand how you can claim something that I factually did not do. How would you respond to me saying you voted Tom. Something you never did you would call me a liar.
And maybe there is a better nicer way to phrase it. And maybe I can be less in your face about it. But you know what? I've got two players attacking me for having a busy weekend, which is utterly ridiculous and you have sat on the sidelines and used it as cheap fuel to attack me. I've got a player attacking me for defending myself, while you sit on the sidelines and watch. I have Rhand a player who when pointed out that they attacked me as town, just says "Meh" conflicting play styles still want to lynch. Why should I ever bother to change my reads or think about play?
Finally I have Terry attacking me for god knows what. I don't even know. I do know at one point he attacked me because he couldn't be bothered to read the full sentence and missed the word basically. And then when questioned on this said it didn't matter. Meanwhile, when called out for using OMGUS in a BS manner he has now doubled down on the most ludicrous definition.
OMGUS is when the case is a paper tiger by his definition of paper tiger. So it is really just an attack when he says it is. Only when the player believe it, but you know its not really an argument. What Terry says goes. And I'm now stuck holding the bag trying to figure out if this player is scum and just using anything they can to sling dirt and attack a player for it or if they are just bad town.
Meanwhile you sit on the sidelines. Any respectable player would have stepped in and said "Hey knock it off. Your attacks are dumb." Players came out on the OMGUS stuff not you though. Vezok is the first to come out on the AFK thing not you though.
Respect is missing the word basically, and having it pointed out to you and saying "You know what I was wrong". Respect is not badgering a player over being gone four days. Respect is having it pointed out to me that I made a pretty bad statement that was vague and me going "You're right I need to explain that better". Respect is about not saying something that is so patently untrue that a simple check of the original post would have made you delete that. Respect is when a player says "You scum read me last time." to go maybe I should change that opinion. Respect probably also is to not use mean words so I'm right there in the dirt too. But the way that you are acting is that you are blameless and that's ridiculous.
Anyway I'd appreciate if everyone pretended my temporary loss of control didn't happen. I got angry at something that was silly to get angry about and that post was 100% the anger talking. Sorry to everyone, and especially sorry Phraze.
uhh ok. please rephrase your posts from a reasonable approach and continue from there. we're not done with discussion yet.
I would normally put this loss of control on record as AtE, but as you wish. sorry if I was rude to you as well, it wasn't intentional.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Well I can't edit old posts but going forward I'll strive to write my posts in a calm manner. And if you want to consider it AtE that's fine. Play the game as you normally would.
I feel the discussion between us is mostly done. Your chat with Tom was similar to the game one I'd been trying to have. I feel like there isn't much left for me to say to you right now.
Dawning not even pretending to blow different directions now. Has just decided rodemy can be lynched and is openly only blowing that way. Brings up this "planning to do something to az" line which totally makes sense in context and is shaping it to fit through a scumrodemy-shaped porthole.
[Kamikaze or vezok] + [dawn or shadow] seems a decent beginning to worldbuilding. Not dichotomies or anything, but feels like good pairs to find a scum in
So Nobue. You're talking about heightened emotion and anger, and about lying and respect and all that.
But. Mafia is a game about lying, right? Lying is the whole point of the scumteam. Scum will obviously lie not just about themselves, but about others in order to force mislynches. They manipulate in whatever way they can. And that's not disrespectful, that's the game. Everyone goes into this knowing that.
So. If you believe people are lying, not arguing in good faith, ignoring your arguments, or anything like that - why are you angry at them? Why aren't you just seeing it as evidence of scum? Why are you talking about respect?
So Nobue. You're talking about heightened emotion and anger, and about lying and respect and all that.
But. Mafia is a game about lying, right? Lying is the whole point of the scumteam. Scum will obviously lie not just about themselves, but about others in order to force mislynches. They manipulate in whatever way they can. And that's not disrespectful, that's the game. Everyone goes into this knowing that.
So. If you believe people are lying, not arguing in good faith, ignoring your arguments, or anything like that - why are you angry at them? Why aren't you just seeing it as evidence of scum? Why are you talking about respect?
Why is Shadow talking about Respect then?
Why are you OK with Rhand policy lynching?
I don't 100% disagree with you on this. There are some fine points, where I think this black letter law doesn't fit. But on the whole I agree.
I overall don't have massive issue with it. I do have an issue with Rhand throwing in the towel and having a temper tantrum.
I do have an issue with Shadow saying "I want respect" while also sidelining himself with the myriad of other dumb arguments going on. His response is all I need to know if he is town or scum.
I'm mostly mad because I feel like I'm repeating myself, and the people I'm arguing with are not changing their arguments and are just sitting on a loop. Terry 100% wrong on OMGUS, his definition is highly subjective(So much so it has no actual weight if used as he is using it). Refuses to change his position. Why? Because he isn't interested in playing the game, he is interested in stroking his own ego.
Well I can't edit old posts but going forward I'll strive to write my posts in a calm manner. And if you want to consider it AtE that's fine. Play the game as you normally would.
I feel the discussion between us is mostly done. Your chat with Tom was similar to the game one I'd been trying to have. I feel like there isn't much left for me to say to you right now.
ok. I'll reiterate those points.
1. why do you think my read on Rodemy(#58) is wrong?
2. you say I'm fencesitting with Azrael. having an alternative action to handling a neutral is good to have. even with a likely CFD, it's better than letting him stay alive and lynch him on an appointed Day, since that's all that Day will center on. what makes that fencesitting? come to think of it, why do you feel that fencesitting a neutral is bad? they aren't part of town, so anything we do with them shouldn't be your concern.
3. you seem to be forcing your views on me, and not letting it develop naturally. am I wrong there? if I am, please explain.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Dawning not even pretending to blow different directions now. Has just decided rodemy can be lynched and is openly only blowing that way. Brings up this "planning to do something to az" line which totally makes sense in context and is shaping it to fit through a scumrodemy-shaped porthole.
[Kamikaze or vezok] + [dawn or shadow] seems a decent beginning to worldbuilding. Not dichotomies or anything, but feels like good pairs to find a scum in
I'm open to reason. tell me how it fits in a town!Rodemy perspective?
explain. elaborate. say what you mean, or don't say it. the same applies to anyone.
if I'm hard to understand, I should clarify or get lynched. if you're hard to understand, you should clarify or get lynched. if someone is hard to understand, they should clarify or get lynched. even Rodemy should appear to clarify his voting a neutral instead of pursuing scumleans, or he should get lynched.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
..... what's up with this site using fake accounts?
should I still refer to you as a she? ;3
luckily for me I run on "Universal Meta" - an impression I get from someone can be applied onto someone else if the footprints are similar. yes! thank goodness I've mastered metareading to guide me in life on this new site~ what should I say hmmm... I'm a genius?!
jk. at least now I can use legit proof of old games on DV now. teehee~
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Please tell me that a bunch of what you were posting was intentionally jerkish.
Uhh some of it.
Some of it is frustration. Which I happen to think is very legitimate.
I'll hash it out later, but its specifically with Rhand. Rhand has always scum read me and refuses to learn how to adapt reads ever.
I do have a huge issue though with the entire town sitting back on me being attacked for being gone. I had a memo due on diffuse water law. Trust me it was lots of fun. And I am currently scum reading you in particular for sitting back and watching that attack.
Now that I'm here I can start to rely on some larger meta gaming and game knowledge and will do so. I feel largely that this situation is similar to Maelstrom in the sense that I have no idea what the case on me is. At all.
The attacks on me are as follows
I'm defending myself from being called defensive claims(Which makes me scum)
I'm rude.
I've now run out of reasons anyone is voting me. I think Grape actually had something legitimate, but he hasn't been pushing it much and got into it with DBS.
Dawn is 100% town, the game mirrors ZE entirely.
@DBS no don't bother I did that to try and fully distance myself from that account(I was also RPing a bit cause yolo).
I took a different stance on Azreal than my gut tells me is right. But I think Azreal can be lynched at a later date. For the record this is the third time I've seen Azreal pull this play as SK(Assuming this time I'm right as well) and the 6th time I've seen this play on this site. And every time it somehow works. I don't know if player keep forgetting or if somehow they think it is different this time. On principle I want to say lynch on day one. In practicality I think day 4 or 5 seems to be an optimal time if things are not going well.
Tom is town, strong reads.(I had to delete myself saying gimick posting about 50 times so far)
Other thoughts coming soon.
I actually thought Shadow had figured things out and was directly calling me out half of why I swapped(I also thought Tom had it figured out as well).
1. why do you think my read on Rodemy(#58) is wrong?
2. you say I'm fencesitting with Azrael. having an alternative action to handling a neutral is good to have. even with a likely CFD, it's better than letting him stay alive and lynch him on an appointed Day, since that's all that Day will center on. what makes that fencesitting? come to think of it, why do you feel that fencesitting a neutral is bad? they aren't part of town, so anything we do with them shouldn't be your concern.
3. you seem to be forcing your views on me, and not letting it develop naturally. am I wrong there? if I am, please explain.
You asked me to restate them so I will but I have been explaining points 1 and 2 over and over again.
I strongly disagree on your read on ROdemy. I think that dealing with a threat that he's certain while continuing to look for uncertain threats shows a town aligned interest in game solving. It's not like he's ignored the rest of the game to focus on Az in the meantime. He pressured those pushing him and then me for defending him. He's showing interest in the game and seems to be trying to solve it. He's not been around enough to follow through which isn't ideal but given he's not been around at all isn't scummy.
As for your stance on Az you kind of explained why I think it's fence sitty. And your statement that others are leaving Az alive for a specific day doesn't match with anything I've seen. Most are saying leave him alive till he breaks our rules. Point me to anyone saying they want to leave him alive to an appointed day and I'll vote them instead. Because that would be something that needs to be killed with fire. Fence sitting a neutral like you are doing is bad because it gives you an out to vote to lynch someone in an EoD situation without taking a stance on their behavior. You're saying regardless of behavior if things get messy at the end of a day let's lynch him. That reads to me as laying ground work to cover a bad lynch later. Or as cover for moving off someone onto Az.
My thoughts are developing naturally. Maybe I've failed to portray them naturally. I don't know. As for forcing views that's kind of the game. Convincing people that your view is the correct one. Just like you're forcing the idea that Rod is scummy for wanting to lynch Az over a scum lean. If he'd said scum read then I'd be right there with you, but he didn't.
Anyway this is all stuff I've said before. Each time in different ways. I'm out of ways to say it. And really there's no point in saying it to you because you're probably just scum and impossible to convince anyway.
I had not figured you out, but I did know that the if the mentality that “Nobue” has taken was a legitimate and real player I was going to be miserable until one of us died.
As far as sitting back, I didn’t like you, and I had my own reasons for thinking you were scum, I wasn’t at all interested in coming to your rescue even if the activity attacks were bad.
I’ll go back and review your posts that I still think were shade attempts, but it’s very possible that your attempt to play a character got in the way of you properly conveying your thoughts; and as such I’m not going to apologize to you because I stand by my statements that I neither lied nor treated you inappropriately outside of the scope of the game.
(Nancy reads like scum attempting to be completely under the radar and trying to just look like her posts are thought out rather than actually being thought out.)
Oh yeah that was why Grape was pushing me. Wanted answers.
Seems to be the least suspect of all of the pushes.
Uhhh.
Oh yeah Vezok. Ahh it wasn't Vezok but had vote Vezok in it I had #52 written down and Vezok in my notes(Not good notes)
So here is my contention. Azreal is not really helping the town.
Azreal made this contention here.
Quote from Azreal »
Exhibit A: As scum, cardinal rule of mislynches is to get the town to lynch people who are odd, instead of scummy. It's both very easy to do, and the town is usually inclined to give the scum a completely free pass for what is an actual mislynch. So, when dealing with someone who is a good potential victim for this tactic, emphasize their "weirdness", without explaining how what they're doing is a scum tell or makes any sense from a scum-motivated perspective.
100% true, but Nancy votes Grape for kind of strange weird reasons. And doesn't go after Nancy for doing so. That was why I accused Azreal of not scum hunting.
I hate that there are people trying to flavor clear DBS based on a game that old, while not just clearing based on behavior.
The flavor clear is so bad. She definitely isn't scum though. Rhand's probably town though, because that clear was so bad, that a scum wouldn't attempt that.
Tom I'd ask you for some help with Shadow but after last game where you ate bait out of his hand I don't know how much I trust your thoughts on Shadow.
Ehh I'll take it with a grain of salt
Food for thought. Partially the reason for it being the way though was because of frustration of nobody stepping in. I understand where you are coming from, but part of the lash out was real frustration because I legitimately felt ganged up on(And felt very similar to Maelstrom).
That being said I didn't mean to offend you. Others mmm.
And yeah, I still think that post reads like you wanted to be seen reading both Dawning and Rhand as town but also wanted to crap all over the situation.
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@Grapefruit: I’ve only seen Tom break gimmick twice (he maybe’s done it more) but once was a single post as town to win the game, and the other was otg3 as scum to win the game. Him breaking it now is weird to me.
And yeah, I still think that post reads like you wanted to be seen reading both Dawning and Rhand as town but also wanted to crap all over the situation.
I did though.
I didn't want to Shade DBS. I made that explicitly clear. You said I tried to shade DBS. Maybe I'm understanding you incorrectly with how you mean that. But DBS is town. DBS should never have had a wagon on her. And DBS should never have been cleared through flavor.
DBS is actively hunting(Though hunting the low posters). And I think she reads almost exactly like ZE well end game ZE.
What kind of plays? Well for one pushing a player that seemed in a weak position, while the rest of the votes on that person amounted to diddly. On top of which you pushed DBS with the claim that "I know a spade is a spade", but then later claimed "I was waffling on DBS". So is DBS a spade or are you waffling on her? A push that was made with such gusto was suddenly an "Ehhh".
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@Grapefruit: I’ve only seen Tom break gimmick twice (he maybe’s done it more) but once was a single post as town to win the game, and the other was otg3 as scum to win the game. Him breaking it now is weird to me.
I think the nerd rage might have broken him out of it in an attempt to get some order back.
To clarify, horseman I was convinced you were scum. Tom convinced me you were town. I had Phoneix as staunchly town(IIRC). I no longer trust me read on you, I'll waffle a bit.
I dislike that both you and Tom are going after each other because it makes me certain one of you are scum.
So Nobue. You're talking about heightened emotion and anger, and about lying and respect and all that.
But. Mafia is a game about lying, right? Lying is the whole point of the scumteam. Scum will obviously lie not just about themselves, but about others in order to force mislynches. They manipulate in whatever way they can. And that's not disrespectful, that's the game. Everyone goes into this knowing that.
So. If you believe people are lying, not arguing in good faith, ignoring your arguments, or anything like that - why are you angry at them? Why aren't you just seeing it as evidence of scum? Why are you talking about respect?
Why is Shadow talking about Respect then?
Answering my question with a question? Why not answer directly?
Why are you OK with Rhand policy lynching?
What are you talking about?
I don't 100% disagree with you on this. There are some fine points, where I think this black letter law doesn't fit. But on the whole I agree.
I overall don't have massive issue with it. I do have an issue with Rhand throwing in the towel and having a temper tantrum.
I do have an issue with Shadow saying "I want respect" while also sidelining himself with the myriad of other dumb arguments going on. His response is all I need to know if he is town or scum.
I'm mostly mad because I feel like I'm repeating myself, and the people I'm arguing with are not changing their arguments and are just sitting on a loop. Terry 100% wrong on OMGUS, his definition is highly subjective(So much so it has no actual weight if used as he is using it). Refuses to change his position. Why? Because he isn't interested in playing the game, he is interested in stroking his own ego.
The game isn't about changing arguments. The game is about hunting (or for scum, hiding). Neither town nor scum should expect to get much traction in changing someone else's position.
So Nobue. You're talking about heightened emotion and anger, and about lying and respect and all that.
But. Mafia is a game about lying, right? Lying is the whole point of the scumteam. Scum will obviously lie not just about themselves, but about others in order to force mislynches. They manipulate in whatever way they can. And that's not disrespectful, that's the game. Everyone goes into this knowing that.
So. If you believe people are lying, not arguing in good faith, ignoring your arguments, or anything like that - why are you angry at them? Why aren't you just seeing it as evidence of scum? Why are you talking about respect?
Why is Shadow talking about Respect then?
Answering my question with a question? Why not answer directly?
Why are you OK with Rhand policy lynching?
What are you talking about?
I don't 100% disagree with you on this. There are some fine points, where I think this black letter law doesn't fit. But on the whole I agree.
I overall don't have massive issue with it. I do have an issue with Rhand throwing in the towel and having a temper tantrum.
I do have an issue with Shadow saying "I want respect" while also sidelining himself with the myriad of other dumb arguments going on. His response is all I need to know if he is town or scum.
I'm mostly mad because I feel like I'm repeating myself, and the people I'm arguing with are not changing their arguments and are just sitting on a loop. Terry 100% wrong on OMGUS, his definition is highly subjective(So much so it has no actual weight if used as he is using it). Refuses to change his position. Why? Because he isn't interested in playing the game, he is interested in stroking his own ego.
The game isn't about changing arguments. The game is about hunting (or for scum, hiding). Neither town nor scum should expect to get much traction in changing someone else's position.
75%.
You're wrong though.
Town should be 100% open for changing opinions and thus by default their arguments. This game is about adapting reads. Almost all of my reads are generated through arguments and discussions. If you don't change reads then you are not hunting scum, you are just looking for lynches.
Anyway this is all stuff I've said before. Each time in different ways. I'm out of ways to say it. And really there's no point in saying it to you because you're probably just scum and impossible to convince anyway.
first off, shutting me off as "you're scum so you can't be convinced" is a lazy excuse. if you don't want to hash it out, and are just playing this game for brownie points, that is rude. this is a social game, and you practically agreed to handle these confrontations by joining.
My thoughts are developing naturally. Maybe I've failed to portray them naturally. I don't know. As for forcing views that's kind of the game. Convincing people that your view is the correct one. Just like you're forcing the idea that Rod is scummy for wanting to lynch Az over a scum lean. If he'd said scum read then I'd be right there with you, but he didn't.
now, has Rodemy questioned Shadow or Kamikaze yet? he seems to be sourcing his reads from the work/interactions of others, not his own. I have yet to see any original (as in sourced from himself) interactions for his reads. he had scumleans, so why didn't he pursue them? it's fine if he doesn't want to question because of limited time, he could've just left his vote/pressure on them for others to sort out. voting a neutral doesn't solve anything. I might be absent from this thread, for the most part, but I leave my vote on someone who I suspect is scum - it is standard procedure.
the fact of the matter is in that vote of his, which wasn't on a scumlean but a neutral. he should clarify that. it isn't your place to claim his mindset for him. you aren't him.
according to Azrael, he will win when he has reached a threshold, which is already an appointed time. I don't remember seeing anyone saying they will leave him alive to achieve his wincon. so yes, others intend to lynch him on an appointed Day - the Day before he wins. my thoughts are less ridiculous though, just leave him alive if we have options. I'm totally fine with him achieving his claimed wincon. is that fencesitting? if I was scum, and such a wincon dropped in, I imagine I would push town to lynch him so I can save my NK for dangerous town + waste town's Day. which is more logical?
and disclaimer: idk about Rodemy being scummy for VLA or whatever, but the distancing from #58 is obvious. he didn't address it, and it seems that few others are trying to allude my suspicion on him to be inactivity, and it isn't.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I think the nerd rage might have broken him out of it in an attempt to get some order back.
hmm..
#503 is him trying to bring order back, and that was gimmicky.
#487 is him breaking his gimmick. I've seen scum get legit frustrated with me before cuz I'm good at catching them. could be the same here. why would someone who's into gimmicks just break it for me, the pathetic newb? .-.
also, I'll just refer to your past and present as him. lol
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I think the nerd rage might have broken him out of it in an attempt to get some order back.
hmm..
#503 is him trying to bring order back, and that was gimmicky.
#487 is him breaking his gimmick. I've seen scum get legit frustrated with me before cuz I'm good at catching them. could be the same here. why would someone who's into gimmicks just break it for me, the pathetic newb? .-.
also, I'll just refer to your past and present as him. lol
Mmmm. I'll let Tom answer then.
Pretty sure you and Grape are TvT btw. I'll wait on Rodemy to post more right now just not enough for me to have a read.
[quote from="Nobue_Itoh »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/788489-pirates-mafia-day-1-scourge-o-the-seas?comment=178"][quote from="KamikazeArchon »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/788489-pirates-mafia-day-1-scourge-o-the-seas?comment=176"] Talk to me about Nancy. I put pressure on Nancy and she disappeared. Do you still think she's town?
Yes, I may not have been very active but I assure you that you - or no one else in this game - has played any role in that. I'm new to the forum and have never played in any game with anything longer than a 48 hr. day; so this endless day is highly confusing to me.
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It is not necessary to accept everything as true, one must only accept it as necessary. ~Kafka
Dawning not even pretending to blow different directions now. Has just decided rodemy can be lynched and is openly only blowing that way. Brings up this "planning to do something to az" line which totally makes sense in context and is shaping it to fit through a scumrodemy-shaped porthole.
[Kamikaze or vezok] + [dawn or shadow] seems a decent beginning to worldbuilding. Not dichotomies or anything, but feels like good pairs to find a scum in
I'm open to reason. tell me how it fits in a town!Rodemy perspective?
explain. elaborate. say what you mean, or don't say it. the same applies to anyone.
if I'm hard to understand, I should clarify or get lynched. if you're hard to understand, you should clarify or get lynched. if someone is hard to understand, they should clarify or get lynched. even Rodemy should appear to clarify his voting a neutral instead of pursuing scumleans, or he should get lynched.
this seems like a great way to crash a ship as near to the beginning of the journey as possible
You're now pushing rodemy for scumhunting and not thinking like scum.
I think the nerd rage might have broken him out of it in an attempt to get some order back.
hmm..
#503 is him trying to bring order back, and that was gimmicky.
#487 is him breaking his gimmick. I've seen scum get legit frustrated with me before cuz I'm good at catching them. could be the same here. why would someone who's into gimmicks just break it for me, the pathetic newb? .-.
also, I'll just refer to your past and present as him. lol
Mmmm. I'll let Tom answer then.
Pretty sure you and Grape are TvT btw. I'll wait on Rodemy to post more right now just not enough for me to have a read.
right.
and idk. still on the fence when it comes to reading Grapes. I don't like his overt defense on someone's behalf - usually indicates teamwork behind the scenes. every townie for themselves. then again, could just be a playstyle issue.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
[quote from="Nobue_Itoh »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/788489-pirates-mafia-day-1-scourge-o-the-seas?comment=178"][quote from="KamikazeArchon »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/788489-pirates-mafia-day-1-scourge-o-the-seas?comment=176"] Talk to me about Nancy. I put pressure on Nancy and she disappeared. Do you still think she's town?
Yes, I may not have been very active but I assure you that you - or no one else in this game - has played any role in that. I'm new to the forum and have never played in any game with anything longer than a 48 hr. day; so this endless day is highly confusing to me.
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If you want me to play with you as an equal, you’re going to apologize, and not just to me, but to every single person you’ve insulted against the spirit of the game, whether directly or by implication. Until you do, my vote will stay on you and my responses to you, if they come, will not be for your benefit.
No you haven't.
You've directly lied. First it was that I "Shat all over the Dawn flavor clear" Then when called out on that you moved it to this more "It was that you were shading Rhand"
Then it was "Shading dawn too" Which I never did.
Which is more aggregious me calling you a liar? Or you literally making things up and putting words in my mouth?
You can appoligize to me. Not the other way around.
How about we don't attack people for being busy? I agree that the disappearance was slightly suspicious, but nothing seems to indicate that Nobue didn't actually have stuff to do. She's posting all the time even when there's attention on her which makes to believe she was actually busy instead of faking it.
I'm really not seeing that pattern here though. New players tend to focus more on their survival as either town or scum. You can't really prove yourself as a good player if you get lynched day 1.
I like tom's vote on kamikaze archon. I don't really want to move there rn though.
Everyone chill out. We are here to play a game and have fun. Don't get mad at each other for playing it.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
While attacking a player's play is fine, attacking a player is not and will result in warnings.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Be grateful, always."
since when do scum kill neutrals over town? town won't think like that, that's why we lynch neutrals.
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
I have no idea how much of Nobue's scumminess is culture clash. The last couple of pages are definitely tense. And I'm sorry I helped take the lid off and start the open animosity. My gut says Nobue is town, but my head is confused.
I'm just going to drop my town tell for tom now: him breaking Gimmick. As scum he's been tied to his gimmick's till the very end. Him breaking it feels like he has so much he wants to say about the game that he can't contain himself, and that feels strongly like a town tell.
Anyway I'd appreciate if everyone pretended my temporary loss of control didn't happen. I got angry at something that was silly to get angry about and that post was 100% the anger talking. Sorry to everyone, and especially sorry Phraze.
However.
Shadow directly said that I shaded both Rhand and Dawn.
Which I clearly never did. Shadow can either A)Prove that I did shade Dawn(At which point I'm wrong and a total ass)
Or B) Can explain why he is lying about that. This isn't misconstruing. IE interpreting something in a wrong manner this is saying I did something that I either factual did or didn't do.
You want to talk about respect? I get people misconstruing arguments. I understand someone saying that they interpreted something differently.
I do not understand how you can claim something that I factually did not do. How would you respond to me saying you voted Tom. Something you never did you would call me a liar.
And maybe there is a better nicer way to phrase it. And maybe I can be less in your face about it. But you know what? I've got two players attacking me for having a busy weekend, which is utterly ridiculous and you have sat on the sidelines and used it as cheap fuel to attack me. I've got a player attacking me for defending myself, while you sit on the sidelines and watch. I have Rhand a player who when pointed out that they attacked me as town, just says "Meh" conflicting play styles still want to lynch. Why should I ever bother to change my reads or think about play?
Finally I have Terry attacking me for god knows what. I don't even know. I do know at one point he attacked me because he couldn't be bothered to read the full sentence and missed the word basically. And then when questioned on this said it didn't matter. Meanwhile, when called out for using OMGUS in a BS manner he has now doubled down on the most ludicrous definition.
OMGUS is when the case is a paper tiger by his definition of paper tiger. So it is really just an attack when he says it is. Only when the player believe it, but you know its not really an argument. What Terry says goes. And I'm now stuck holding the bag trying to figure out if this player is scum and just using anything they can to sling dirt and attack a player for it or if they are just bad town.
Meanwhile you sit on the sidelines. Any respectable player would have stepped in and said "Hey knock it off. Your attacks are dumb." Players came out on the OMGUS stuff not you though. Vezok is the first to come out on the AFK thing not you though.
Respect is missing the word basically, and having it pointed out to you and saying "You know what I was wrong". Respect is not badgering a player over being gone four days. Respect is having it pointed out to me that I made a pretty bad statement that was vague and me going "You're right I need to explain that better". Respect is about not saying something that is so patently untrue that a simple check of the original post would have made you delete that. Respect is when a player says "You scum read me last time." to go maybe I should change that opinion. Respect probably also is to not use mean words so I'm right there in the dirt too. But the way that you are acting is that you are blameless and that's ridiculous.
I would normally put this loss of control on record as AtE, but as you wish. sorry if I was rude to you as well, it wasn't intentional.
Be grateful, always."
I feel the discussion between us is mostly done. Your chat with Tom was similar to the game one I'd been trying to have. I feel like there isn't much left for me to say to you right now.
[Kamikaze or vezok] + [dawn or shadow] seems a decent beginning to worldbuilding. Not dichotomies or anything, but feels like good pairs to find a scum in
But. Mafia is a game about lying, right? Lying is the whole point of the scumteam. Scum will obviously lie not just about themselves, but about others in order to force mislynches. They manipulate in whatever way they can. And that's not disrespectful, that's the game. Everyone goes into this knowing that.
So. If you believe people are lying, not arguing in good faith, ignoring your arguments, or anything like that - why are you angry at them? Why aren't you just seeing it as evidence of scum? Why are you talking about respect?
Why is Shadow talking about Respect then?
Why are you OK with Rhand policy lynching?
I don't 100% disagree with you on this. There are some fine points, where I think this black letter law doesn't fit. But on the whole I agree.
I overall don't have massive issue with it. I do have an issue with Rhand throwing in the towel and having a temper tantrum.
I do have an issue with Shadow saying "I want respect" while also sidelining himself with the myriad of other dumb arguments going on. His response is all I need to know if he is town or scum.
I'm mostly mad because I feel like I'm repeating myself, and the people I'm arguing with are not changing their arguments and are just sitting on a loop. Terry 100% wrong on OMGUS, his definition is highly subjective(So much so it has no actual weight if used as he is using it). Refuses to change his position. Why? Because he isn't interested in playing the game, he is interested in stroking his own ego.
1. why do you think my read on Rodemy(#58) is wrong?
2. you say I'm fencesitting with Azrael. having an alternative action to handling a neutral is good to have. even with a likely CFD, it's better than letting him stay alive and lynch him on an appointed Day, since that's all that Day will center on. what makes that fencesitting? come to think of it, why do you feel that fencesitting a neutral is bad? they aren't part of town, so anything we do with them shouldn't be your concern.
3. you seem to be forcing your views on me, and not letting it develop naturally. am I wrong there? if I am, please explain.
Be grateful, always."
explain. elaborate. say what you mean, or don't say it. the same applies to anyone.
if I'm hard to understand, I should clarify or get lynched. if you're hard to understand, you should clarify or get lynched. if someone is hard to understand, they should clarify or get lynched. even Rodemy should appear to clarify his voting a neutral instead of pursuing scumleans, or he should get lynched.
Be grateful, always."
Yeah I figured it was time.
Which was a theatrical Nobue.
should I still refer to you as a she? ;3
luckily for me I run on "Universal Meta" - an impression I get from someone can be applied onto someone else if the footprints are similar. yes! thank goodness I've mastered metareading to guide me in life on this new site~ what should I say hmmm... I'm a genius?!
jk. at least now I can use legit proof of old games on DV now. teehee~
Be grateful, always."
Uhh some of it.
Some of it is frustration. Which I happen to think is very legitimate.
I'll hash it out later, but its specifically with Rhand. Rhand has always scum read me and refuses to learn how to adapt reads ever.
I do have a huge issue though with the entire town sitting back on me being attacked for being gone. I had a memo due on diffuse water law. Trust me it was lots of fun. And I am currently scum reading you in particular for sitting back and watching that attack.
Now that I'm here I can start to rely on some larger meta gaming and game knowledge and will do so. I feel largely that this situation is similar to Maelstrom in the sense that I have no idea what the case on me is. At all.
The attacks on me are as follows
I'm defending myself from being called defensive claims(Which makes me scum)
I'm rude.
I've now run out of reasons anyone is voting me. I think Grape actually had something legitimate, but he hasn't been pushing it much and got into it with DBS.
Dawn is 100% town, the game mirrors ZE entirely.
@DBS no don't bother I did that to try and fully distance myself from that account(I was also RPing a bit cause yolo).
I took a different stance on Azreal than my gut tells me is right. But I think Azreal can be lynched at a later date. For the record this is the third time I've seen Azreal pull this play as SK(Assuming this time I'm right as well) and the 6th time I've seen this play on this site. And every time it somehow works. I don't know if player keep forgetting or if somehow they think it is different this time. On principle I want to say lynch on day one. In practicality I think day 4 or 5 seems to be an optimal time if things are not going well.
Tom is town, strong reads.(I had to delete myself saying gimick posting about 50 times so far)
Other thoughts coming soon.
I actually thought Shadow had figured things out and was directly calling me out half of why I swapped(I also thought Tom had it figured out as well).
You asked me to restate them so I will but I have been explaining points 1 and 2 over and over again.
I strongly disagree on your read on ROdemy. I think that dealing with a threat that he's certain while continuing to look for uncertain threats shows a town aligned interest in game solving. It's not like he's ignored the rest of the game to focus on Az in the meantime. He pressured those pushing him and then me for defending him. He's showing interest in the game and seems to be trying to solve it. He's not been around enough to follow through which isn't ideal but given he's not been around at all isn't scummy.
As for your stance on Az you kind of explained why I think it's fence sitty. And your statement that others are leaving Az alive for a specific day doesn't match with anything I've seen. Most are saying leave him alive till he breaks our rules. Point me to anyone saying they want to leave him alive to an appointed day and I'll vote them instead. Because that would be something that needs to be killed with fire. Fence sitting a neutral like you are doing is bad because it gives you an out to vote to lynch someone in an EoD situation without taking a stance on their behavior. You're saying regardless of behavior if things get messy at the end of a day let's lynch him. That reads to me as laying ground work to cover a bad lynch later. Or as cover for moving off someone onto Az.
My thoughts are developing naturally. Maybe I've failed to portray them naturally. I don't know. As for forcing views that's kind of the game. Convincing people that your view is the correct one. Just like you're forcing the idea that Rod is scummy for wanting to lynch Az over a scum lean. If he'd said scum read then I'd be right there with you, but he didn't.
Anyway this is all stuff I've said before. Each time in different ways. I'm out of ways to say it. And really there's no point in saying it to you because you're probably just scum and impossible to convince anyway.
Tom
DBS
Rhand(Flavor clear bad = probabally town)
Nancy(I just like the posts they read true)
Neutral
Rodemy
AE
The shouldn't be cleared pile
Kazin(Behavior feels scummy to me logic is bad I don't care about that "Slip" it really is nonsensical)
Gambitting his ass off
Azreal
Something something Azreal said something
Vez(Remind me about this in a bit.)
I question motives for pushing me
Shadow (But at the same time does scum shadow actually ally with such bad pushes as Kamikaze makes?)
Scum
Kamikaze(I'm pushing you and I'll make it stick or else)
I really have no idea how to read Terry still. Literally nothing he posts makes much sense to me.
As far as sitting back, I didn’t like you, and I had my own reasons for thinking you were scum, I wasn’t at all interested in coming to your rescue even if the activity attacks were bad.
I’ll go back and review your posts that I still think were shade attempts, but it’s very possible that your attempt to play a character got in the way of you properly conveying your thoughts; and as such I’m not going to apologize to you because I stand by my statements that I neither lied nor treated you inappropriately outside of the scope of the game.
(Nancy reads like scum attempting to be completely under the radar and trying to just look like her posts are thought out rather than actually being thought out.)
Seems to be the least suspect of all of the pushes.
Uhhh.
Oh yeah Vezok. Ahh it wasn't Vezok but had vote Vezok in it I had #52 written down and Vezok in my notes(Not good notes)
So here is my contention. Azreal is not really helping the town.
Azreal made this contention here.
100% true, but Nancy votes Grape for kind of strange weird reasons. And doesn't go after Nancy for doing so. That was why I accused Azreal of not scum hunting.
@Shadow read it and weep then
Tom I'd ask you for some help with Shadow but after last game where you ate bait out of his hand I don't know how much I trust your thoughts on Shadow.
Ehh I'll take it with a grain of salt
When does Shadow make these kind of plays?
Lets go where I feel confidant for the moment.
Unvote Vote Kamikaze
Food for thought. Partially the reason for it being the way though was because of frustration of nobody stepping in. I understand where you are coming from, but part of the lash out was real frustration because I legitimately felt ganged up on(And felt very similar to Maelstrom).
That being said I didn't mean to offend you. Others mmm.
And yeah, I still think that post reads like you wanted to be seen reading both Dawning and Rhand as town but also wanted to crap all over the situation.
—————-
@Grapefruit: I’ve only seen Tom break gimmick twice (he maybe’s done it more) but once was a single post as town to win the game, and the other was otg3 as scum to win the game. Him breaking it now is weird to me.
I did though.
I didn't want to Shade DBS. I made that explicitly clear. You said I tried to shade DBS. Maybe I'm understanding you incorrectly with how you mean that. But DBS is town. DBS should never have had a wagon on her. And DBS should never have been cleared through flavor.
DBS is actively hunting(Though hunting the low posters). And I think she reads almost exactly like ZE well end game ZE.
What kind of plays? Well for one pushing a player that seemed in a weak position, while the rest of the votes on that person amounted to diddly. On top of which you pushed DBS with the claim that "I know a spade is a spade", but then later claimed "I was waffling on DBS". So is DBS a spade or are you waffling on her? A push that was made with such gusto was suddenly an "Ehhh".
I think the nerd rage might have broken him out of it in an attempt to get some order back.
To clarify, horseman I was convinced you were scum. Tom convinced me you were town. I had Phoneix as staunchly town(IIRC). I no longer trust me read on you, I'll waffle a bit.
I dislike that both you and Tom are going after each other because it makes me certain one of you are scum.
Suck it AE, Nancy and Rodemy I'm now above your posts.
What are you talking about?
The game isn't about changing arguments. The game is about hunting (or for scum, hiding). Neither town nor scum should expect to get much traction in changing someone else's position.
75%.
You're wrong though.
Town should be 100% open for changing opinions and thus by default their arguments. This game is about adapting reads. Almost all of my reads are generated through arguments and discussions. If you don't change reads then you are not hunting scum, you are just looking for lynches.
251.02% with standard deviation of 50.
It is like night and day.
so u dont care about how u play the game as long as u win, or are right? dont agree with that. sorry. I find it disrespectful to override others with my opinions, even in my scumgames. it leads to a bitter victory, and the losers might not even concede defeat. are we in the game to hate each other? no. so I disagree with you.
now, has Rodemy questioned Shadow or Kamikaze yet? he seems to be sourcing his reads from the work/interactions of others, not his own. I have yet to see any original (as in sourced from himself) interactions for his reads. he had scumleans, so why didn't he pursue them? it's fine if he doesn't want to question because of limited time, he could've just left his vote/pressure on them for others to sort out. voting a neutral doesn't solve anything. I might be absent from this thread, for the most part, but I leave my vote on someone who I suspect is scum - it is standard procedure.
the fact of the matter is in that vote of his, which wasn't on a scumlean but a neutral. he should clarify that. it isn't your place to claim his mindset for him. you aren't him.
according to Azrael, he will win when he has reached a threshold, which is already an appointed time. I don't remember seeing anyone saying they will leave him alive to achieve his wincon. so yes, others intend to lynch him on an appointed Day - the Day before he wins. my thoughts are less ridiculous though, just leave him alive if we have options. I'm totally fine with him achieving his claimed wincon. is that fencesitting? if I was scum, and such a wincon dropped in, I imagine I would push town to lynch him so I can save my NK for dangerous town + waste town's Day. which is more logical?
and disclaimer: idk about Rodemy being scummy for VLA or whatever, but the distancing from #58 is obvious. he didn't address it, and it seems that few others are trying to allude my suspicion on him to be inactivity, and it isn't.
Be grateful, always."
#503 is him trying to bring order back, and that was gimmicky.
#487 is him breaking his gimmick. I've seen scum get legit frustrated with me before cuz I'm good at catching them. could be the same here. why would someone who's into gimmicks just break it for me, the pathetic newb? .-.
also, I'll just refer to your past and present as him. lol
Be grateful, always."
Mmmm. I'll let Tom answer then.
Pretty sure you and Grape are TvT btw. I'll wait on Rodemy to post more right now just not enough for me to have a read.
Yes, I may not have been very active but I assure you that you - or no one else in this game - has played any role in that. I'm new to the forum and have never played in any game with anything longer than a 48 hr. day; so this endless day is highly confusing to me.
You're now pushing rodemy for scumhunting and not thinking like scum.
and idk. still on the fence when it comes to reading Grapes. I don't like his overt defense on someone's behalf - usually indicates teamwork behind the scenes. every townie for themselves. then again, could just be a playstyle issue.
Be grateful, always."