I had to go back and check to see what his role was because I thought he was vanilla too...
Also Vote: Vaimes based on that revelation/realization.
What do you mean?
Who did the most work the point of self voting to try and prevent a D1 no lynch?
Oh snap. I hadn't though of that. Ugh, I love scum slips, but Dan was such a pushover... it didn't feel like caught scum. You were the main person pushing for Dan Lynch, do you think Vaimes self vote was enough to tip your vote to Vaimes?
@Terry Dan is now my number two suspect. I want to hear from Arc if he was speculating that way in chat before finalizing anything. If Arc comes back and says that is hogwash then we dogpile onto Dan no sweat.
But yeah actually reading Vezok's role, combining that with Vaimes behavior, and using that to contextualize his horrible, no good, very bad vote on Arc that he just made I'm pretty happy with my vote.
Yeah no. No way Vaimes tries to kill himself to prevent a no lynch to save Vezok's ability. In a two scum game, no scum would sacrifice themselves so readily even for so little a benefit
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Yeah no. No way Vaimes tries to kill himself to prevent a no lynch to save Vezok's ability. In a two scum game, no scum would sacrifice themselves so readily even for so little a benefit
And there is even less of a chance Arc saw town at L-2 and tried to move the lynch onto his buddy instead. But that's what Vaimes is voting and I don't like it at all.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So they're both likely town.You should probably be asking
@Vaimes: Why is Arc more likely than Cyan, Dan, or Terry?
I have been harping on no point more than Arc is hard clear for the way he pushed Vezok all day long. And every time I do I am hit with the rebuttal that Vaimes is clear as well. The cognitive dissonance for Vaimes to try and push Arc on thin air (did you read his case? There is nothing in it) while trying to convince us he's clear for Vezok's push is too much for me to handle. Especially when to start the day Vaimes peaced out saying he'd vote Dan with no explanation. This just isn't town behavior.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Did you ever make the points you made in the chat, in here? They were pretty convincing.
My point btw is that just because someone is trying to lynch your townread doesn't always make them scum.
I agree in general, but think in this case that Vaimes doesn't make that case at town. Vaimes knowing he's town should see Arc as town clearer than the rest of us that Arc moving the wagon off him and onto Vezok is very strongly a town aligned move.
And I'm pretty sure I've said my point on Arc mutliple times. Were there other points you meant?
Now I can’t help but feel like we’re /supposed/ to focus on slash lynch dan toDay.
In a vacuum, I think Arc is our best bet for scum.
I’m town, I’ve come back to Cyan being town, I’m starting to feel like dan is trying to figure things out rather than save himself or throw shade on someone else, KJ is the only PR claim with an innocent check on Grape, and Terry I really have nothing on except that I don’t think the entire scumteam would bank on being able to lynch me D1 and then...keep scumreading me when it clearly didn’t work out for vezok.
Yeah, Arc saved me, but if I mock Grape for a second, “it could have been a ploy to look town!”
Another reason that is weak and pretty unrelated to anyone’s alignment, but I think when everyone seems a little bit too town for there to be a clear-cut lynch, there needs to be some spice to it in order for it to be a scum lynch. If that makes sense.
Vote Arc
Like I'm pretty sure the logical conclusion to this post is to vote Terry or KJ. I have no idea why this post leads to vote Arc.
Vaimes is never scum, dude. There's just no way Vezok parks on scum Vaimes and makes no effort afterwards to switch wagons. He's just brainfarting right now.
Also Vaimes, you're not saying anything in the chat either, so shut up?
And yeah Dan did note how we lynched Vezok in our chat, and that was about it.
Hah, you're right. I thought to myself "how often do towns no-lynch? Vezok's ability basically never does anything" when I had it backwards. Even said it in my chat with Arc.
Probably just need to be done with me at this point to eliminate any odds that it actually is a scumslip.
@Arc this was the part we wanted clarification on.
And I just don't agree on Vaimes. Vezok's behavior D2 is with the knowledge that people are gunning for him and he's a likely lynch. D1 he was on the Vaimes wagon before it gained steam. Maybe he never found a reason he thought valid to jump off and got "stuck" on him. It's not likely, but right now everyone has a good reason to be town.
@Grape: Yeah nevermind about the chat thing. You were, in fact, scumreading Vaimes in that post. I thought you had made a case as to why we could eliminate him from PoE today. I was wrong there.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Man I don’t have any strong scumreads. Or even lukewarm ones.
And Grape, not wanting a No Lynch on D1 is so beyond alignment indicative. Having to slog through the same bull***** on a site with TWO WEEK Day phases makes me want to puke.
Also, I’m V/LA indefinitely, which sucks but I literally don’t know if I’m going to have much access to wifi or even a cell signal in the near future. If it looks bad, I’ll ask for a replacement.
Maybe it is just Cyan and I’m overcomplicating things. Can someone double check whether vezok was as buddy buddy to Cyan as Cyan claims he was in their chat?
Terry is doing his thing where he tries to catch people mechanically and I dunno if he bothers with that ***** as mafia. Eh.
dan just looks so...good. Behaved. Like a schoolboy with a 4.0 who does volunteer work.
@Vaimes That's all fair. I'm a bit confused about your question of Vezok and Cyan being buddy buddy. Cyan claims that N1 he was scum reading you and me. We know Vezok came out swinging hard that you and me were scum and wanting to sort you first. In our buddy chat Cyan strongly suspected you but didn't mention anything about suspecting me (he only posted twice before Vezok's flip). Cyan's play to start D2 mostly lines up with his claimed thought process. He pokes a few questions at Vezok about voting me over Vaimes, but is mostly happy to go back in his previous suspicion and vote with Vezok.
Cyan eventually moves to Vezok without explanation after the KJ not reading GJ's flip fiasco. While I'm on that I want to add a quote from KJ that I think is pretty well clearing for him.
Hm. Theres no way everyone voting me right now is town.
I need to think on this.
Cyan started it when he noticed my mistake. Could be scum.
Vaimes... I like his reaction to it (and other posts). Probably town.
Osie's is a bandwagon vote.
Vezok is also a bandwagon vote while saying he didn't think it was a scumslip at first but now that everyone is voting me, he's ok with it.
Vote Vezok.
@Cyan: What do you mean "Given the context of the rest of the post". The rest of the post was just a joke to you.
I might as well claim. I'm the cop. I can only target people within 4 cells of me. I targeted Grape. He's town. I chose him because he is usually an easy mislynch in most games so I wanted to clear him so that doesn't happen. I consdiered Vezok first, but changed my mind near the DL.
Why would scum KJ while getting run up choose to counter wagon his buddy? That claim alone should either sink or clear him so jumping on the competing wagon isn't as important. It's a natural bit of solving and not just focusing on the claim to clear himself that feels townie to me.
Unvote I'm coming around to the idea that Dan is scum and just is playing a really well played game. Everyone else has really strong reasons to town read them in addition to their behavior. Dan doesn't. And yes the Osie kill is weird, but desperate players make weird plays.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
How likely is scum!Dan to tell us to lynch him to make sure it's not a scumslip?
Not super likely, but nothing is that likely right now.
Arc: Moved the wagon off Vaimes D1 onto scum.
Cyan: Likely not scum with Vezok due to push targets. Also Tonally townie.
Dan: Squeaky clean behavior.
Grape: Cop checked as town.
KJ: Cop with believeable thematic restrictions.
Terry: Early interactions with Vezok strongly suggest anti alignment (Vezok saying he's going to ignore Terry's posts).
Vaimes: Was pushed hard by Vezok, suggesting not buddies.
Everyone else has either mechanics or Vezok interactions suggesting they are town. Dan has none of that, but he's been a picture perfect townie and I struggled to find any evidence of ulterior motives looking closely at his posts. Granted he has the least posts of any living player so that would help in that regard.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It doesn't, but you seemed to disagree with me coming back to the conclusion that Dan is scum in 372. But generally people who are townie through and through are town because it is hard to fake as scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'd argue there is no "town through and through". Not the way Dan is playing anyway.
Can you expand on that then? Because reading through his ISO nothing except his unexplained town read on Vezok jumped out at me. I think he's scum but that's purely PoE speaking. I'd feel better if I saw anything behaviorally to suggest my PoE was right.
@KJ Nothing in particular. My mind just always works from "who's town" backwards, not "who's most likely to be scum," and nothing really puts them into a dichotomy, alignment-wise, that I've seen so far. I don't really know Terry's experience level, though. Is he inexperienced enough to want to kill Osie just strictly as a result of his interpretation of Osie's status within the town, as opposed to the reality of the situation? Vaimes' post in 470 makes it seem like that's not the case, but there's not a lot of mechanical data for us to draw off of, at least not so far.
Also, "squeaky clean" doesn't = town. But they correlate. And I'd say (IMO, maybe I'm totally off base here) that one of my better strengths as a player back in the day was being able to demonstrate I was town, regardless of pressure.
@Terry Sorry..?
Does the Vaimes logic make sense to you from a town mindset? Do you agree with it? Also, see the @Vaimes re: Vezok's meta.
@GF I agree with KJ's analysis of Vaimes. I see where you're coming from, but that's a significant sacrifice to try and take advantage of that. I do agree with Vaimes' 470, however. Maybe it's slightly bolstered by the scum having an extra kill if they dodge the NL, but both sides should be happy with a lynch on Day 1, assuming scum aren't lynching one of their own.
@Vaimes/all I wouldn't say anything we saw in the thread was an egregious show of buddying from Vezok -> Cyan. I will say, though, that when we were all actively playing games, bussing in larger setups was quite common. I didn't really play a lot of <12 person games.
@Arc I'm assuming nothing has changed at any point toDay to change your evaluation on the remaining mislynch pool? Will you reason them all out for me individually?
I do like that GF/KJ interaction in the 460s. They seemed very comfortable with each other. Not as though GF had any doubts, but I think that reaffirms in my mind that KJ should be generally left alone until LyLo/MyLo.
@Dan I haven't completely cleared KJ internally, but for purposes of today I'm considering him clear. I'm still paranoid he's pocketing me but I'm ignoring those whispers for now.
I'm convincing myself not to drink the wine, and I don't think I'll push this to a lynch?, but I still feel like throwing out there that the only person who would make sense to be osie's killer is grapefruit, after knowing keeping KJ alive wouldn't backfire at all and even possibly work in his favor, because KJ claimed his real role to him that night. KJ's lock cop status is revoked through his guaranteed claim the next day, and he wouldnt be able to kill the cop check because that's grape himself, leaving the next best choice Osie.
I really can't tell wether dan's lack of direction here, by finding someone in specific to direct the push to, is scum apathy or just conformed town.
Despite terry being a doofus about me and vaimes I still think he's probably town. I feel like scum!terry doesn't bother trying to rule out the most likely lynch candidates (dan & cyan) when they're competing with him for today.
You know what would be a very good idea? The ability to isolate posts in a thread by author, so I could see who Vezok talked about.
@Arc fortunately you can do that, it's just not intuitive to do so. The easiest way is from the forum page to click the post count for the thread. It pops up a post count and you can click on the number of posts to see all of their posts in the thread. You can also use the search feature at the top of the thread, choosing search this thread and by author.
I do make the most sense to have killed Osie, but there is never a godfather in a game this size with KJ's restrictions.
The problem I am having right now is the apathy you're seeing in Dan is widespread through the game right now. I've never seen a town this ambivalent after having lynched scum early.
People myself included are tinfoiling people who they shouldn't be rn. I think the scum is always inside {cyan, dan} through Vezok's pushes, despite my earlier comment about you.
I like pressure on Cyan. But I think Dan is just more likely. Part of it that I don't know Dan at all and I know Cyan a little and tonally this feels like the town!Cyan I've played with. My confidence in that bit of meta is very low but it's enough for me to vote Dan over Cyan today. I agree scum is very likely to be between those two. There might also be a small amount of bias stemming from the fact that cyan is next door to me and I want to keep my chat going. I don't think it's playing into my evaluation, but it might be.
There is no reason to vote for your scumbuddy in a 2 scum game. People are going to assume that you will, because they always assume that there is scum on a wagon(even a scum wagon), but in reality by helping your only buddy get lynched, you're just making it almost impossible to win the game.
Like, I literally cannot imagine the circumstances where I, as part of a 2 person scum team, would vote for my scumbuddy. It is completely counter-productive.
I just wanted to get that out there so that people will remember it in the future, I realize people are just going to claim 'WIFOM' for now. I also recognize that I'm part of a POE pool and the town still has a bunch of mislynches to work with, so nbd if I have to die.
@KJ Nothing in particular. My mind just always works from "who's town" backwards, not "who's most likely to be scum," and nothing really puts them into a dichotomy, alignment-wise, that I've seen so far. I don't really know Terry's experience level, though. Is he inexperienced enough to want to kill Osie just strictly as a result of his interpretation of Osie's status within the town, as opposed to the reality of the situation? Vaimes' post in 470 makes it seem like that's not the case, but there's not a lot of mechanical data for us to draw off of, at least not so far.
Also, "squeaky clean" doesn't = town. But they correlate. And I'd say (IMO, maybe I'm totally off base here) that one of my better strengths as a player back in the day was being able to demonstrate I was town, regardless of pressure.
@Terry Sorry..?
Does the Vaimes logic make sense to you from a town mindset? Do you agree with it? Also, see the @Vaimes re: Vezok's meta.
@GF I agree with KJ's analysis of Vaimes. I see where you're coming from, but that's a significant sacrifice to try and take advantage of that. I do agree with Vaimes' 470, however. Maybe it's slightly bolstered by the scum having an extra kill if they dodge the NL, but both sides should be happy with a lynch on Day 1, assuming scum aren't lynching one of their own.
@Vaimes/all I wouldn't say anything we saw in the thread was an egregious show of buddying from Vezok -> Cyan. I will say, though, that when we were all actively playing games, bussing in larger setups was quite common. I didn't really play a lot of <12 person games.
@Arc I'm assuming nothing has changed at any point toDay to change your evaluation on the remaining mislynch pool? Will you reason them all out for me individually?
I do like that GF/KJ interaction in the 460s. They seemed very comfortable with each other. Not as though GF had any doubts, but I think that reaffirms in my mind that KJ should be generally left alone until LyLo/MyLo.
RE: My Experience level. I'm not going to comment on the excellence of my mafia skills, but I will comment on my experience. I played on WotC Paranoia Paradise and Mafia Scum a lot like 5-10 years ago, took about 4 years off and have been back at it here over the last year or so. It's definitely enough experience to know to A: Kill a Cop, B: Kill a cop clear or C: Kill a potential target of a cop.
Sorry for what? You can't help you drew scum.
Regarding Vaimes logic, I'm seeing a lot of logical posts from most of the players here, so lack of logic is not going to be what catches scum this game.
Regarding Vaimes Meta, thee only person he seemed to be buddy buddy with is you. Bussing Day 1 seems pretty far fetched, so for that alone, I'm willing to take Vaimes off the list today.
@Dan I haven't completely cleared KJ internally, but for purposes of today I'm considering him clear. I'm still paranoid he's pocketing me but I'm ignoring those whispers for now.
I second this. We aren't lynching Grape or KJ today.
Also we should probably mass claim tomorrow. Possibly today but I think tomorrow is better.
Why!? Town has all the advantages right now.
Right and we're close to solving and have a tight PoE. A mass claim tomorrow makes it much hard for scum to pull off a hail Mary than waiting till the day after. Was wrong about today though. Should wait till tomorrow.
There is no reason to vote for your scumbuddy in a 2 scum game. People are going to assume that you will, because they always assume that there is scum on a wagon(even a scum wagon), but in reality by helping your only buddy get lynched, you're just making it almost impossible to win the game.
Like, I literally cannot imagine the circumstances where I, as part of a 2 person scum team, would vote for my scumbuddy. It is completely counter-productive.
I just wanted to get that out there so that people will remember it in the future, I realize people are just going to claim 'WIFOM' for now. I also recognize that I'm part of a POE pool and the town still has a bunch of mislynches to work with, so nbd if I have to die.
There was no way Vezok *wasn't* getting lynched yesterday so I find the point moot.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
No time for a lengthy response, but Terry, I've been willing to lynch you since #386. It's nothing personal, but it's either you, Cyan, or myself. And my worldview is still stubbornly telling me that Cyan is just frustrated town.
Grape: I shouls probably clarify what you mean by 'squeaky clean'. I'm assuming you mean "hasn't done anything scummy". Is that right?
It's still probably Dan.
Yes, I don't think he's done anything scummy. And he's done some things I consider townie (without being hard tells).
Ok.
I'm a believer that if someone is 0% scum, then they could be scum because they are actively avoiding looking scum. He could be having a really good game but...
I don't recall any really controversial opinions or reaching or anything liek that from Dan. It's a rare game that that just never happens for town.
I'm ready for this day to end btw. I'll hammer Dan whenever we're ready to end it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Well since we seem to be at a standstill I'll say I'm happy to switch my vote to Cyan but prefer it where it is. Definitely don't want to no lynch today and I'm really not sure what we're waiting on at this point.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Imo should lynch cyan for only making his first post now in the entire game (because everything before this just been useless)
Also "frustrated" about what, having two dead scum by D3? Thats not something to be frustrated about. Or maybe you're talking about KJ's half true claim? So then he's frustrated about having to evaluate KJ one more time? But that's just playing the game, how can he be frustrated about that? Frustration from having to actually play the game instead of useless one-lining the entire time? Sounds like whining to me.
I'll lynch whichever one of the two, and I can vote whenever. I want to lynch cyan. You guys duke it out wether or not you want to follow, if not i'll switch.
Also going to be mostly on mobile for the next 4 days. I can still play but I won't be making any big quote filled cases or paying as much attention. Take my opinions with a grain of salt accordingly.
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But yeah actually reading Vezok's role, combining that with Vaimes behavior, and using that to contextualize his horrible, no good, very bad vote on Arc that he just made I'm pretty happy with my vote.
And there is even less of a chance Arc saw town at L-2 and tried to move the lynch onto his buddy instead. But that's what Vaimes is voting and I don't like it at all.
@Vaimes: Why is Arc more likely than Cyan, Dan, or Terry?
I have been harping on no point more than Arc is hard clear for the way he pushed Vezok all day long. And every time I do I am hit with the rebuttal that Vaimes is clear as well. The cognitive dissonance for Vaimes to try and push Arc on thin air (did you read his case? There is nothing in it) while trying to convince us he's clear for Vezok's push is too much for me to handle. Especially when to start the day Vaimes peaced out saying he'd vote Dan with no explanation. This just isn't town behavior.
My point btw is that just because someone is trying to lynch your townread doesn't always make them scum.
I agree in general, but think in this case that Vaimes doesn't make that case at town. Vaimes knowing he's town should see Arc as town clearer than the rest of us that Arc moving the wagon off him and onto Vezok is very strongly a town aligned move.
And I'm pretty sure I've said my point on Arc mutliple times. Were there other points you meant?
Like I'm pretty sure the logical conclusion to this post is to vote Terry or KJ. I have no idea why this post leads to vote Arc.
Also Vaimes, you're not saying anything in the chat either, so shut up?
And yeah Dan did note how we lynched Vezok in our chat, and that was about it.
@Arc this was the part we wanted clarification on.
And I just don't agree on Vaimes. Vezok's behavior D2 is with the knowledge that people are gunning for him and he's a likely lynch. D1 he was on the Vaimes wagon before it gained steam. Maybe he never found a reason he thought valid to jump off and got "stuck" on him. It's not likely, but right now everyone has a good reason to be town.
Man I don’t have any strong scumreads. Or even lukewarm ones.
And Grape, not wanting a No Lynch on D1 is so beyond alignment indicative. Having to slog through the same bull***** on a site with TWO WEEK Day phases makes me want to puke.
Also, I’m V/LA indefinitely, which sucks but I literally don’t know if I’m going to have much access to wifi or even a cell signal in the near future. If it looks bad, I’ll ask for a replacement.
Maybe it is just Cyan and I’m overcomplicating things. Can someone double check whether vezok was as buddy buddy to Cyan as Cyan claims he was in their chat?
Terry is doing his thing where he tries to catch people mechanically and I dunno if he bothers with that ***** as mafia. Eh.
dan just looks so...good. Behaved. Like a schoolboy with a 4.0 who does volunteer work.
Cyan eventually moves to Vezok without explanation after the KJ not reading GJ's flip fiasco. While I'm on that I want to add a quote from KJ that I think is pretty well clearing for him.
Why would scum KJ while getting run up choose to counter wagon his buddy? That claim alone should either sink or clear him so jumping on the competing wagon isn't as important. It's a natural bit of solving and not just focusing on the claim to clear himself that feels townie to me.
Unvote I'm coming around to the idea that Dan is scum and just is playing a really well played game. Everyone else has really strong reasons to town read them in addition to their behavior. Dan doesn't. And yes the Osie kill is weird, but desperate players make weird plays.
Not super likely, but nothing is that likely right now.
Arc: Moved the wagon off Vaimes D1 onto scum.
Cyan: Likely not scum with Vezok due to push targets. Also Tonally townie.
Dan: Squeaky clean behavior.
Grape: Cop checked as town.
KJ: Cop with believeable thematic restrictions.
Terry: Early interactions with Vezok strongly suggest anti alignment (Vezok saying he's going to ignore Terry's posts).
Vaimes: Was pushed hard by Vezok, suggesting not buddies.
Everyone else has either mechanics or Vezok interactions suggesting they are town. Dan has none of that, but he's been a picture perfect townie and I struggled to find any evidence of ulterior motives looking closely at his posts. Granted he has the least posts of any living player so that would help in that regard.
It doesn't, but you seemed to disagree with me coming back to the conclusion that Dan is scum in 372. But generally people who are townie through and through are town because it is hard to fake as scum.
Can you expand on that then? Because reading through his ISO nothing except his unexplained town read on Vezok jumped out at me. I think he's scum but that's purely PoE speaking. I'd feel better if I saw anything behaviorally to suggest my PoE was right.
Also, "squeaky clean" doesn't = town. But they correlate. And I'd say (IMO, maybe I'm totally off base here) that one of my better strengths as a player back in the day was being able to demonstrate I was town, regardless of pressure.
@Terry Sorry..?
Does the Vaimes logic make sense to you from a town mindset? Do you agree with it? Also, see the @Vaimes re: Vezok's meta.
@GF I agree with KJ's analysis of Vaimes. I see where you're coming from, but that's a significant sacrifice to try and take advantage of that. I do agree with Vaimes' 470, however. Maybe it's slightly bolstered by the scum having an extra kill if they dodge the NL, but both sides should be happy with a lynch on Day 1, assuming scum aren't lynching one of their own.
@Vaimes/all I wouldn't say anything we saw in the thread was an egregious show of buddying from Vezok -> Cyan. I will say, though, that when we were all actively playing games, bussing in larger setups was quite common. I didn't really play a lot of <12 person games.
@Arc I'm assuming nothing has changed at any point toDay to change your evaluation on the remaining mislynch pool? Will you reason them all out for me individually?
I do like that GF/KJ interaction in the 460s. They seemed very comfortable with each other. Not as though GF had any doubts, but I think that reaffirms in my mind that KJ should be generally left alone until LyLo/MyLo.
I really can't tell wether dan's lack of direction here, by finding someone in specific to direct the push to, is scum apathy or just conformed town.
Despite terry being a doofus about me and vaimes I still think he's probably town. I feel like scum!terry doesn't bother trying to rule out the most likely lynch candidates (dan & cyan) when they're competing with him for today.
You know what would be a very good idea? The ability to isolate posts in a thread by author, so I could see who Vezok talked about.
This is better than Dan imo.
Unvote
Vote: Cyan
I do make the most sense to have killed Osie, but there is never a godfather in a game this size with KJ's restrictions.
The problem I am having right now is the apathy you're seeing in Dan is widespread through the game right now. I've never seen a town this ambivalent after having lynched scum early.
Anyway Cyan should die
Vote: Ganderin_Dan
Like, I literally cannot imagine the circumstances where I, as part of a 2 person scum team, would vote for my scumbuddy. It is completely counter-productive.
I just wanted to get that out there so that people will remember it in the future, I realize people are just going to claim 'WIFOM' for now. I also recognize that I'm part of a POE pool and the town still has a bunch of mislynches to work with, so nbd if I have to die.
ganderin_dan -(2)- TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Grapefruit21
Killjoy -(1)- Cyan
Arcthurus -(1)- Vaimes
Cyan -(1)- Arcthurus
Not Voting -(2)- ganderin_dan, Killjoy
Lynch threshold is 4 votes.
Day 3 ends at 2359 Eastern time on Thursday January 25, 2018
Vote: TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Sorry for what? You can't help you drew scum.
Regarding Vaimes logic, I'm seeing a lot of logical posts from most of the players here, so lack of logic is not going to be what catches scum this game.
Regarding Vaimes Meta, thee only person he seemed to be buddy buddy with is you. Bussing Day 1 seems pretty far fetched, so for that alone, I'm willing to take Vaimes off the list today.
I second this. We aren't lynching Grape or KJ today.
Why!? Town has all the advantages right now.
What!? What opinion? I don't think you've made a case against me. Are you mad because I caught you slipping? Is this just a delayed OMGUS?
Right and we're close to solving and have a tight PoE. A mass claim tomorrow makes it much hard for scum to pull off a hail Mary than waiting till the day after. Was wrong about today though. Should wait till tomorrow.
There was no way Vezok *wasn't* getting lynched yesterday so I find the point moot.
It's still probably Dan.
Yes, I don't think he's done anything scummy. And he's done some things I consider townie (without being hard tells).
I'm a believer that if someone is 0% scum, then they could be scum because they are actively avoiding looking scum. He could be having a really good game but...
I don't recall any really controversial opinions or reaching or anything liek that from Dan. It's a rare game that that just never happens for town.
I'm ready for this day to end btw. I'll hammer Dan whenever we're ready to end it.
GF
KJ
Vaimes
Arc
Cyan
Terry
GL, HF
A wise man (ZeDorkSlipeur) once told me that town don't overreact to a single vote on them.
Also "frustrated" about what, having two dead scum by D3? Thats not something to be frustrated about. Or maybe you're talking about KJ's half true claim? So then he's frustrated about having to evaluate KJ one more time? But that's just playing the game, how can he be frustrated about that? Frustration from having to actually play the game instead of useless one-lining the entire time? Sounds like whining to me.
I'll lynch whichever one of the two, and I can vote whenever. I want to lynch cyan. You guys duke it out wether or not you want to follow, if not i'll switch.
Hmmm...
Why terry > cyan?
eh
Vote Cyan
ganderin_dan -(2)- TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Grapefruit21
Killjoy -(1)- Cyan
Cyan -(2)- Arcthurus, Vaimes
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry -(1)- ganderin_dan
Not Voting -(1)- Killjoy
Lynch threshold is 4 votes.
Day 3 ends at 2359 Eastern time on Thursday January 25, 2018
I will be assessing prods in the next few hours, you have been warned.