Tom
The problem wasn't how stacked we were, because many of us also as sub par abilities, but the fact that you kept Azrael, Dawn, and Jenna alive, as scape goats... like i just dont understand that... and when you tried to kill Jenna, with your ability, i told you that day I was gonna save her, I mean maybe it helped clear you for a while, but I never thought you were totally townie...
and imo I believe your role was fine how it was... you could have given one of your abilities away if you died, and phoenix had tons of BP to use.
Maybe keeping dawn alive was fine, but I feel like you guys tried to hard to rely on town fighting amongst themselves, then actually killing people that could figure you out...
@Wisp toms ability would have been fine in different circumstances. As it played out with two lurkers and the track on Phoenix he had to end game to win basically.
And it's not that town didn't have bad roles it's that they were already favored by numbers (unless the missing neutral explains it somehow because13-4 is balanced in an all vanilla game) and a lot of good roles. To lose me and DV before we used an ability and still have multiple roleblocks, multiple doc protects, a targeted lightning rod, and an investigative is a ton of power.
And that's before the fact that toms redirect informed it was a redirect when used without tom being aware of it. Which drastically weakens it.
@Wisp toms ability would have been fine in different circumstances. As it played out with two lurkers and the track on Phoenix he had to end game to win basically.
And it's not that town didn't have bad roles it's that they were already favored by numbers (unless the missing neutral explains it somehow because13-4 is balanced in an all vanilla game) and a lot of good roles. To lose me and DV before we used an ability and still have multiple roleblocks, multiple doc protects, a targeted lightning rod, and an investigative is a ton of power.
And that's before the fact that toms redirect informed it was a redirect when used without tom being aware of it. Which drastically weakens it.
kinda agree with that, a lot of the info Bur gave was weird... idk cant really say much cause I know jack ***** about game balance, I think that maybe some of towns abilities could have had a higher cost...
I thought Tom and Phoenix played excellent games. Certainly good enough to win. And the loss was a combination of some bad luck, some unfortunately lurky partners and, yes, a few good town moments here and there. But I wouldn't say it was because of an overall game imbalance. Like, what are the odds of Jenna hitting Phoenix like that on the very first night? And that was the only thing the town had going that night. You have to credit Jenna for making a good call, but it certainly wasn't overpowered. I don't think she had another track until like the end of the game when it barely mattered anymore.
And then, the odds DBS hits Kaba on N2? Again, good call? Bad luck? Certainly some of both.
LW giving Jenna a BP that night was open information, he even said he was going to do it.
Az was maybe an every other day Doc at best. And Joe basically wasn't anything until he got to 9 BP, which meant N3 at the very earliest if he betrayed everyone while they still allied him, and no one messed with it.
I don't know. I thought most of the Town roles were fairly bad, as these things go. Which is not to say that the Mafia roles were better, just that it wasn't the super imbalance you maybe felt like it was, because of how it played out.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
and can I say something between me and mods on the site...
I'm all for being reported and warned for breaking rules because my Italian side tends to get the best of me, but I find it to be a conflict of interest when a player in this case, a player that is a mod of this forum, focusing more on reporting me then playing the game, I find it to be a slight conflict of interest here, and then there's the fact that some people just barely pass the afk test, and thats all they do... Cythare im looking at you again...
and what was that, "i'm bored of this game post" Kinda irked me
and the loss was a combination of some bad luck, some unfortunately lurky partners and, yes, a few good town moments here and there.
I agree with this, overall Phoenix did a good job of staying alive, in a very unlucky day 2, and Tom is honestly really good at manipulating, and was fun to play with
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's possible it just felt that way because [2 of us] were playing pretty damn well in thread and every single night dug our graves
Every. Single. Night.
And, sure. Whisper n3 and axel n4 were the absolute zenith for how those roles could be used.
My role was very strong, but would have been better as tiered like joe or split up. Or if we could share bp.
Kabas was fine.
Cyths was technically good but decidedly overcosted
Phoenixs was meh we thought about trying to leverage iso or dawn wasting kp there but it never went that way
Fun game! I'm glad we decided not to lynch Azrael. Sorry to DBS and LW for not trusting them sooner, but I came around. I wish my ability had been slightly more useful, and honestly, I think the scum team did awesome. Tom kept up his streak of being a great player no matter what alignment he pulled. I think MVP goes to either Az or Jenna.
Speaking of Jenna, where's my apology?
I'm sorry. It looks like a miracle happened You were right.
Not to be salty but town mvp is the setup by miles
Agreed with this. I don't feel like it was fair that we won. We had counters to everything you could do, and then additional abilities in top of that. And two doctors, two roleblockers, and two vigilantes.
Oh and what was up with us being "randomly" paired lowest to highest four nights in a row? (With only one or two outliers I think.) It really was something like a 1 in 300,000 chance of us being paired lowest to highest if it was truly random.
Oh and what was up with us being "randomly" paired lowest to highest four nights in a row? (With only one or two outliers I think.) It really was something like a 1 in 300,000 chance of us being paired lowest to highest if it was truly random.
Well, cyth, tom and I all lied about our BP at some point or another so it didn't quite line up
PS: not sure why you thought I was scummy day 1
Like, I'm not mad maybe a little frustrated. But I don't think we ever had more than a punchers chance
kinda agree. but in the other game Proph hosted (where I was scum), the power was also in town's favor [link]. not surprising to see this setup from someone whose forte is behavioral analysis - scum get mechanical disadvantages. and don't forget, town had few duplicates - scum could've banked in on that weakness.
also probably townsided due to half the team not invested in the game.
See I think (and not being a jerk) but Dawning's analysis made absolutely no sense almost ever. Her actions were great, and she had a decent voting record, but I think it was more a reverse of cftwr. Right for the wrong reasons?
tbh... my analysis sucks lol. mentioned it somewhere in this mess that I'm bad at conveying my thoughts properly. the reasons and cases are there, but I can't parse it together in a way that makes sense like it does in my head. practice makes perfect tho~
but I could've done better I guess, since forming the right team out of the wrong person (town!Shin) was derp. lmao
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Oh and what was up with us being "randomly" paired lowest to highest four nights in a row? (With only one or two outliers I think.) It really was something like a 1 in 300,000 chance of us being paired lowest to highest if it was truly random.
it could be:
1. scum lied about their starting BP.
2. such an algorithm exists in the RNG site that was used, and the hosts changed sites after the 4th Night.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think what was envisioned didn't happen at all. It was pretty much permanently ALLY. And this created a weird game. BP in this game while interesting in theory. Was well. Really really boring with how it played out to me. It just didn't do much.
Funnily enough I think the most powerful roles for the town side were DBS and JoeTerry roles. Those roles always did something and that was really good.
I think the scum did get screwed over by the two replacements. But I also had a huge frustration with the Town play more than that. Phoenix's claim was so bad it wasn't even funny. It makes no sense at all. Why would it pass to another player? The first part seemed goodish but the second part of that claim was so bad, but somehow it slid through. Meanwhile we had a miss lynch because a player couldn't even be bothered to read the primer and allied because they thought it was -3 BP for betraying. LUL. We also had our RB who had RB'd TWO NK not claim which is strange to say the least.
There was some stand out play from the Town. Not killing Azreal/the claimed RB sooner was questionable by the scum.
Oh and what was up with us being "randomly" paired lowest to highest four nights in a row? (With only one or two outliers I think.) It really was something like a 1 in 300,000 chance of us being paired lowest to highest if it was truly random.
it could be:
1. scum lied about their starting BP.
2. such an algorithm exists in the RNG site that was used, and the hosts changed sites after the 4th Night.
The longest game record stood for a little over eight years has been shattered. Frankly, after Day 1 I was calling this the scum's game to lose as I predicted the sheer volume would make town unwilling or incapable of rereading and reevaluating reads, and I felt some of the town play was very questionable. So it's incredibly impressive of the town to pull off the win, and they kept having the key moments go their way. Tom may argue that the town was overpowered, but what actually lost the game for the scum was fully half of their team just not playing and getting lynched for it - Cyth and Kaba bear most of the responsibility here. Also PF getting tracked to the kill dropped him from strong town to has-to-be-lynched, which was a huge blow to the scum team. If some combination of those events didn't happen, I think the scum would have walked it (which must be incredibly frustrating).
For the design, I'll let Bur talk about it since it's his baby and all I did was review it, but the basic assumption was town would try and control the A/B game (which they kind of did, but not as much as I expected), whereas the scum had the advantage of being able to coordinate their own positions to optimise the team points - especially if they got paired together (which is why their abilities were more expensive). There was a lot of overlap/redundancy on town abilities because the cost of using them and uncertain point generation meant the uptime would be very sketchy. We were also expecting at least a few deaths from the A/B which would have benefitted the scum.
Also, Jenna, the A/B pairings were 100% random so you really wasted an awful lot of time and words seeing patterns in noise.
Also, I really feel I played pretty terribly this game. I only got Phoenix right because of the crappy claim and the track result. Misread both kaba and Cyth, right under my nose. Mislynched grape. I'm happy about the Tom read, and towards late game my town reads got way more on point, but definitely think reading lurkers and lacking meta must be my Achilles heel. Only really catching one out of four is pretty meh. The fact that I survived to an actual endgame for once in my life is kind of telling. Like, I absolutely cannot say it was a clear mistake for the scum not to kill me. Absent DBS and Lngrr being my guardian angels and taking the time and effort to read me, I was dogmeat for the lynch.
Osie, sorry I was on the verge of blowing up on you so much.
Oh I don't mean my feelings about the setup to take away from how much of a disaster all of kaba/cyth/megs/blues were
Our abilities were overcosted because we could coordinate bp if we got lucky enough to pair with each other though? That's pretty iffy.
And yeah I was just watching that nonrandom pairings thing happen knowing I had lied about my starting bp AND ability use just trying not to be gleeful about it
Osie, sorry I was on the verge of blowing up on you so much.
I deserved that at least some, mostly late game. I was pretty out of things due to getting busy with other games, school, etc. Shadow/Phoenix did a great job at pocketing me in the early game that carried over way too hard into the later game.
This game was exhausting, and while there was a lot of bad play on both sides of the aisle, there were some very good moments as well.
I hope that Jenna, Phraze, Shinichi, and Wisp continue to stick around.
This amount of posts is definitely scumsided though
Ain't no one reading back
I want to say that despite a lot of this rhetoric going around, I got very used to looking back at ISOs, especially with a Find tool. Jenna's list of claims helped a ton, and I bookmarked it not long after she posted it.
Like, Azrael kinda hinted that noone was reading him here:
Absent DBS and Lngrr being my guardian angels and taking the time and effort to read me, I was dogmeat for the lynch.
I had Az's ISO open so much to look back at... Probably more than any other ISO this game.
Pretty much after Day 2, at which point I got hard-tunneled on Az, mostly because of tone, I was looking for anything to go either way. It bothered me in particular just how little I could find to townlean him outside of the effort put in to making the ISOs. The Night 3 neighbour chat if anything hurt more than help, given that Az seemed to be disengaged. Az's push on me seemed to come out of nowhere, and it was incredibly glaring to me that he never did a PBPA on me. He also backed off without even declaring it, just focusing on something else, which felt very strange.
Oh, and now that the game is over, D_V said something fitting to me I do think should be brought up:
Quote from DV »
What about Phoenix claim seemed legit? The targeting was questionable at best. But the second part of the claim was the part that I've been *****ing about. Why the **** would it be passable, but the only people that it could pass to were scum?
I also think the rigidity that you're pushing "ally=townie, betray=scummy" is based on the assumption that everyone has the same net gain from using BP, which I just don't think holds true. Everyone should be prepared to justify why they pick what they do, but saying "town have to ally" could lead to situations where someone gets screwed because they allied with a scum lean who betrayed them.
You downplay two strategies; please provide your suggested strategy along with a list of who you will Ally and Betray.
I don't think a "one size fits all" strategy is going to work. Every pairing needs to be done on a case by case basis. I think everyone creating a reads list and going from there will be helpful. But two people town reading each other might be better suited to agree on an AB pairing to the greater benefit of the other.
Regardless of who I get paired with, I will most likely ally. I'll have a list of people I'd approve to betray me, and if someone outside of that list did then we'll have words.
Is reality altered? I say "give me an apple," and you say, "I think instead I should give you an apple." And then you don't give me an apple.
Phoenix-fire for multiple questionable statements that I have yet to see responses for. Most recently #2427.
2427 was a post by Axelrod voting you.
If you have questions you'd like me to respond to then by all means ask them, and if you already have, then point me to them.
Why do you want to lynch half the game? Do you not feel confident enough to have a smaller group you prefer? Why aren't you trying to dig deeper into your suspects?
You've talked about spending tons of time in this game everyday but not being caught up; frankly you should probably stop living in the past and focus on the present with jaunts to the past if you want to find something. You stand a good chance of being lynched today and if you actually are putting in as much effort as you say, that should bother you. It bothers me because regardless of your alignment, you're not playing to it, and that makes the game frustrating. For goodness sakes do something.
Odd. I'll have to review it when I finish reading. As for questions and answers, regrettably I was not taking detailed notes of threads near the beginning, so I'll have to do a thorough review to see what you have failed to address. Then again, it may be your failure in its entirety, if you should so ask me a question which is answered in the exact post you quoted. And your trailing question is one that has been answered time and time again. As a quiz to you, what pages have I yet to read? I have posted the answer it least three times as Present Jenna.
This role has to be town if hes not lieings it be so broken for mafia aligned.
I very seriously doubt that is all of his role (if it's even true), and I disagree that it's over powered.
sigh, I can't even with you guys... Ok so your gunna fear monger now? Explain to us what you mean by, "that's not all of it"
I think you're scum, and I think you're withholding something, fear doesn't play into it.
How irrational do you have to be to purchase a bottle of water and then say to the clerk that the clerk is hiding a BOGO coupon and just cheated you of an extra bottle of water? What precedent do you have for this suspicion?
I've got a couple of minutes, and I'll be trying to follow along as best I can (limited access basically through the deadline). Can we please put LW to L-2 to force the claim, his dancing around it in the final 6 hours is scummy as crap, he knows he's a very real possibility for lynch and despite this he's stalling for time to create havoc. I do not buy the "anyone can figure it out" line at all; he's being anti town and he knows it.
How much time did you spend thinking about it before giving up on it?
I must say that I had a fantastic time playing during Day 1 and most of Day 2. But by Day 3 the game had turned into work, and there were so many discussions about mechanics instead of behavior analysis and wordplay. It felt soul-sucking. Creativity stifled.
Gee thanks osie, it was kind of not public who I was -_-
I actually wanted to roll town or neutral this game more than scum because I feel like my weaker town play is more worth escaping than my scum play. Of course then I rolled scum and was like “yeah alright”. I intentionally played much more scheduled and pulled back from the thread, partially because it was such a huge game that I didn’t want to get completely burned out by posting a huge amount, and partially because I could only get my login to work on my work phone, which I use less.
One of my biggest struggles with this game was playing in the longest game I’ve ever been in (well except mashes, so longest that I read every post) and then not being able to point to it in other games and say “I’m slightly overcommitted so don’t mind my wavering effort”
I want to say that despite a lot of this rhetoric going around, I got very used to looking back at ISOs, especially with a Find tool. [url=http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/784906-zero-escape-mafia-day-5-crash-and-burn?page=140#c7046]
Pretty much after Day 2, at which point I got hard-tunneled on Az, mostly because of tone, I was looking for anything to go either way. It bothered me in particular just how little I could find to townlean him outside of the effort put in to making the ISOs. The Night 3 neighbour chat if anything hurt more than help, given that Az seemed to be disengaged. Az's push on me seemed to come out of nowhere, and it was incredibly glaring to me that he never did a PBPA on me. He also backed off without even declaring it, just focusing on something else, which felt very strange.
DBS's method of reading me was one way. There was a lot of taking data points that other players dismissed as WIFOM trash, and sifting them for decisive tells.
Tracking the motivation behind my posts is another good method. What is the town motivation vs the scum motivation. Am I disinterested in engaging with you by night because I am intimidated I'll be caught, or am I just not expecting it to be a productive conversation. Am I failing to PBPA you because I can't fake a good read on you, or because you posted 27 pages of material and counting and all of it looked agonizingly town. (Note, you weren't the only person who got an abbreviated treatment, because I was struggling to reread the entire frickin player base in one swoop.)
I tried to make it easy to parse those reasons, by declaring them outright. You just have to decide if those were natural responses to what was going on, or not. Not whether you like them or dislike them. Whether they are natural. Understandable.
It's also very difficult to credibly fake genuine, stream of consciousness scum hunting. Sometimes people don't scum hunt all that hard, or don't get emotionally involved, and the scum can blend in with that to an extent. But then you will have a moment where someone who is clearly passionate about what they are doing, or thinking really detailed thoughts about what is going on. And you get these brief, brilliant glimmers that would be nigh impossible to fake.
As a townie, I glimmer all over the thread, consistently. Most people teaditionally say that makes me a super easy town read - which has always made it very, very hard for me to play a decent scum game. Don't look for effort, effort can come from any number of reasons. WHY is there effort. Get inside their head. See if it makes sense. And if you have a tough time empathizing with someone well enough to do that, ask enough questions that you can flesh it out.
Part of why I always tend to incorrectly scum read Iso, but later flip to a town read on him, is our personalities are very, very different in a number of respects. And his actions match with some of the scum traits I look for, too. But given enough time and questioning, as in this game, I can eventually find a way to grasp how it is he is looking at the game, even if it is completely different or bizzare to me from how I approach it. All it takes is one piece of the puzzle to click on sometimes, like being able to understand how someone who now only posts from work could have a very different playstyle than they used to.
My vote is DBS for town MVP. Great analysis, best voting record, good use of her ability. Well done.
Scum played a very tough game also. Would have been very difficult to catch some of them without good fortune on our abilities.
wouldve been better if Iso didnt gamethrow...
I didn’t gamethrow. dawn having more BP means she is less likely to die in the event that she gets betrayed by scum at 1 BP, because that was still very much a possibility with 2 scum alive. I also think removing Shinichi from the mislynch pool was the correct decision, because I couldn’t have been the only one who didn’t think he was totally cleared. Regardless, we won, so
Sorry if I was overly rude to anyone in this game. I absolutely can not stand it when people try to get me to repeat myself, and the fact that Az was the number one anti-Iso player due to him not reading what I’ve been saying about my activity level for quite some time, now, was, I hope, understandably frustrating.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Wouldve been beter of you shot Phoenix though I really didnt see why anyone thought Shin was scummy. *shrug* Maybe didnt play optimally, but I didnt get any sense that he was trying to shift narratives in a scummy way.
My vote is DBS for town MVP. Great analysis, best voting record, good use of her ability. Well done.
Scum played a very tough game also. Would have been very difficult to catch some of them without good fortune on our abilities.
wouldve been better if Iso didnt gamethrow...
I didn’t gamethrow. dawn having more BP means she is less likely to die in the event that she gets betrayed by scum at 1 BP, because that was still very much a possibility with 2 scum alive. I also think removing Shinichi from the mislynch pool was the correct decision, because I couldn’t have been the only one who didn’t think he was totally cleared. Regardless, we won, so
Sorry if I was overly rude to anyone in this game. I absolutely can not stand it when people try to get me to repeat myself, and the fact that Az was the number one anti-Iso player due to him not reading what I’ve been saying about my activity level for quite some time, now, was, I hope, understandably frustrating.
"Does betraying not rob a person of 3 BP? If not, well, oops"
Also didn't you counter claim someone this game because you didn't even understand your role PM?
Wouldve been beter of you shot Phoenix though I really didnt see why anyone thought Shin was scummy. *shrug* Maybe didnt play optimally, but I didnt get any sense that he was trying to shift narratives in a scummy way.
Not that it would've done anything, since Phoenix was bulletproof.
It's the same reason why I thought that Iso allying dawn was actually beneficial to the town, since dawn shooting PF wouldn't have done anything anyways.
Anyways, post game thoughts:
Like Proph already said, we made some slightly radical last minute changes.
We had to change the AB from +3/-2 to +3/-1, since no matter how we tried to balance it, games would end up really swingy.
In original version, scum could've won D2 after a single mislynch if they got bit lucky with AB choices. And if we boosted starting BP, if town forces "All Ally" -strategy, town would've gotten tons of activations, which wasn't what we intended.
We also implemented "no suicide" rule to reduce swinginess from AB games, though now that the game is over we probably shouldn't have added that rule.
However, all these changes to the rules really left their impact on the roles, since some roles didn't work anymore in the new set-up.
We originally had for example a passive that reduced BP loss from getting betrayed (lose 1 instead of 2) and dawn's role started at 5 BP, a required EXACTLY 3 or 1 BP to be able to use their role.
And then we ended up scrapping the neutral survivor variant (who Axel was supposed to be) and added one town instead to keep the player count at 17 (so that as long as there wasn't no lynch or missed NKs, there wouldn't be anyone left without a pair in AB game).
We also swithced around quite many of the role alignment-wise. Neighbouriser town in every other and scum in every other version of this set-up.
Self-watcher was originally town (but not the BP-stealing part). List goes on.
And LnGr, the reason why your role wasn't really good was partially since you were intended to be a glorified VT and partly since we considered making AB results not public at all, but decided not to go that way in the end.
Anyways, if I could change things now, I'd probably at least make LW's role cost 2, to mirror Cyth's role (originally both cost 1 to activate), give PF an activated ability to use all his BP (we realised halfway D1 that PF's role was completely disconnected from the all game-mechanics and neither me, Proph, Eco or Zionite noticed this >_>) and lower tom's ability's BP costs.
And then MVP's:
Town MVP - Azrael. For climbing his way out of mislynch pool, not giving in despite everyone ignoring him and catching scum team in the end. Honorary Mention - dawningbluesky. For blocking NK twice successfully and not using their ability on town even once (redirect doesn't count, they originally aimed it at PF).
Mafia MVP - PhoenixFire. For getting caught N1 performing NK, making up really clunky claim on the spot, convincing that their role was real even though all of my previous games pointed at the other direction AND making it alive to the Day 7 MyLo.
That's it from me for now, I truly thank all of you who participated in this game.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
My vote is DBS for town MVP. Great analysis, best voting record, good use of her ability. Well done.
Scum played a very tough game also. Would have been very difficult to catch some of them without good fortune on our abilities.
wouldve been better if Iso didnt gamethrow...
I didn’t gamethrow. dawn having more BP means she is less likely to die in the event that she gets betrayed by scum at 1 BP, because that was still very much a possibility with 2 scum alive. I also think removing Shinichi from the mislynch pool was the correct decision, because I couldn’t have been the only one who didn’t think he was totally cleared. Regardless, we won, so
Sorry if I was overly rude to anyone in this game. I absolutely can not stand it when people try to get me to repeat myself, and the fact that Az was the number one anti-Iso player due to him not reading what I’ve been saying about my activity level for quite some time, now, was, I hope, understandably frustrating.
no I dont believe anyone had shin in the lynch pool anymore, other then the scum... you screwed up twice, call it what you want, but at least own up to it...
I kinda wondered why my role had nothing to do with BP
And then when people said I was lying cause my claimed role didn’t use BP it was hilarious cause they were right but not because of that.
Bur, I assumed I was a glorified PT as the game went on. I was hoping there was a scum ability that relied on the AB game, but as game went on I realized I was mostly a VT with a quirk that could theoretically be useful but probably not lol.
My vote is DBS for town MVP. Great analysis, best voting record, good use of her ability. Well done.
Scum played a very tough game also. Would have been very difficult to catch some of them without good fortune on our abilities.
wouldve been better if Iso didnt gamethrow...
I didn’t gamethrow. dawn having more BP means she is less likely to die in the event that she gets betrayed by scum at 1 BP, because that was still very much a possibility with 2 scum alive. I also think removing Shinichi from the mislynch pool was the correct decision, because I couldn’t have been the only one who didn’t think he was totally cleared. Regardless, we won, so
Sorry if I was overly rude to anyone in this game. I absolutely can not stand it when people try to get me to repeat myself, and the fact that Az was the number one anti-Iso player due to him not reading what I’ve been saying about my activity level for quite some time, now, was, I hope, understandably frustrating.
no I dont believe anyone had shin in the lynch pool anymore, other then the scum... you screwed up twice, call it what you want, but at least own up to it...
There's a difference between "throwing the game" and "could have chosen a better Vig target", is my point. Throwing the game is an action taken to deliberately screw my team and is an intentional screw-up that directly results in a game loss. My actions were not performed out of malice or with the intent to cause my team to lose. My team won. What I did, while not optimal, was not not a "gamethrow".
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
We also implemented "no suicide" rule to reduce swinginess from AB games, though now that the game is over we probably shouldn't have added that rule.
that is a real swinger. imagine if Azrael couldn't do that successfully~
I'd probably at least make LW's role cost 2, to mirror Cyth's role (originally both cost 1 to activate)
tbh I thought giving BP cost 1 to give 1, which would result in a -2.
give PF an activated ability to use all his BP ... and lower tom's ability's BP costs
better if it was a threshold, to mirror the RB/vig and JoAT. in the end, all scum flips never had thresholds... lol.
Honorary Mention - dawningbluesky. For blocking NK twice successfully and not using their ability on town even once (redirect doesn't count, they originally aimed it at PF).
while I would say thanks.. still curious why redirects gave out names? it was as if there were cop abilities in the setup itself.
My vote is DBS for town MVP. Great analysis, best voting record, good use of her ability. Well done.
Scum played a very tough game also. Would have been very difficult to catch some of them without good fortune on our abilities.
wouldve been better if Iso didnt gamethrow...
I didn’t gamethrow. dawn having more BP means she is less likely to die in the event that she gets betrayed by scum at 1 BP, because that was still very much a possibility with 2 scum alive. I also think removing Shinichi from the mislynch pool was the correct decision, because I couldn’t have been the only one who didn’t think he was totally cleared. Regardless, we won, so
Sorry if I was overly rude to anyone in this game. I absolutely can not stand it when people try to get me to repeat myself, and the fact that Az was the number one anti-Iso player due to him not reading what I’ve been saying about my activity level for quite some time, now, was, I hope, understandably frustrating.
no I dont believe anyone had shin in the lynch pool anymore, other then the scum... you screwed up twice, call it what you want, but at least own up to it...
if Iso took out Tom, he would pass his ability to Phoenix who had a stash of BP to use. if he tried Phoenix, it would result in no deaths. and overall, Shin was kinda pocketed (to have lived so long), so it wasn't a bad move lol. and we were in the tunnel that Iso should take out someone, without knowing 1 scum could pass on abilities if they die and 1 scum was bulletproof.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
while I would say thanks.. still curious why redirects gave out names? it was as if there were cop abilities in the setup itself.
I've been under assumption that not informing players about redirects is inherently bastard-ish.
Like, imagine DV targeting tom and getting redirected to Grape. He'd be told that his target was "town" but not that he was redirected.
(And before anyone brings up godfathers: I hate that role and design my set-ups so that there is never need for one.)
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I think that's often handled by treating investigative redirects differently from other abilities. For instance, DBS might only be told that his ability was successfully used, or that his ability was successfully used but targeted *some other undisclosed person*, while DV would be told that Grape was town.
Sometimes, it also helps to coach what happened in terms of flavor, to keep things a bit more vague, and allow room for creative false-claiming rather than explicitly telling players "your ability was successful, except some dude redirected you to target X."
while I would say thanks.. still curious why redirects gave out names? it was as if there were cop abilities in the setup itself.
I've been under assumption that not informing players about redirects is inherently bastard-ish.
Like, imagine DV targeting tom and getting redirected to Grape. He'd be told that his target was "town" but not that he was redirected.
(And before anyone brings up godfathers: I hate that role and design my set-ups so that there is never need for one.)
the message could say that I was redirected, but not to whom. having no information about an interference might be bastard, but....names would be too much information not a first tho. the thing is that, town/scum redirectors had the ability to tap into the setup's innate cop/investigative system. that, along with a town vengeful, made this game have more 'investigatives' than expected. counting town vengeful here since they reveal alignments, at least by suicide. [maybe add some all-purpose line like "your action has been intercepted, *results here*".]
not that it was unbalanced, since that many roleblockers were crazy too (and enough to counter it), but the game turned out to have more 'investigatives' than expected...
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Ok, first of all, thank you DV. That was an immensely fun game. I loved the mechanic of my role and how it interacted with BP.
Second, thank you to our new comers DBS, Last Whisper and Jenna. I hope you'll stick around your improvement over the course of this game was notable.
DBS, I know there was stuff I wanted to talk to you about post game, but I forgot what that was. A couple things to help towards your improvement. Never self vote, it is always against your Wincon and is lazy. Be more careful with your claims. You were too fast to claim. I still feel like the night we both thought we blocked the shot my logic was better and you kind of lucked out, but as the game went on I felt like you kept improving and I hope you stick around. We need more high volume posters like you.
LW, I hope you learned a little bit of humility through this game because I think when it boiled down, that's what got you scum read Day 1. I think you proved yourself a competent player, but a little jumpy. You actually saved more people from dying than I did!
Jenna, you proved yourself smart and I hope you learned to not to mess around with gimmicks. This would have been a lot smoother if you had just stuck to the play style you ended up finishing the game with. Good job!
I agree with Az as the Town MVP, not because his reads were good, not because he made any amazing plays, but because he stuck it out when he could have easily raised his hands up in frustration and phoned it in. You kept battling and ended up pulling it off (Was that backhanded enough?). I knew I was going to get shot at some point and was honestly hoping my flip would post mortem CC you, which is also why I didn't want to Lynch Phoenix. The Nurse/Doc thing was the one thing that prevented me from aggro lynching you while I was alive.
@ALL: What'd people think about me lying about my choice to lie about my ability? I tried some misdirection, but not sure if it ended up being counter productive at all.
I felt like scum started off strong with a reviver and a cop dead in the first to deaths, but when PF got tracked stuff kind of death spiraled for them. If I was ever able to get on the same page as Az, it could have been pretty gnarly with 2 active docs. There were an awful lot of ways for town to protect and get info in this game.
The problem wasn't how stacked we were, because many of us also as sub par abilities, but the fact that you kept Azrael, Dawn, and Jenna alive, as scape goats... like i just dont understand that... and when you tried to kill Jenna, with your ability, i told you that day I was gonna save her, I mean maybe it helped clear you for a while, but I never thought you were totally townie...
and imo I believe your role was fine how it was... you could have given one of your abilities away if you died, and phoenix had tons of BP to use.
Maybe keeping dawn alive was fine, but I feel like you guys tried to hard to rely on town fighting amongst themselves, then actually killing people that could figure you out...
And it's not that town didn't have bad roles it's that they were already favored by numbers (unless the missing neutral explains it somehow because13-4 is balanced in an all vanilla game) and a lot of good roles. To lose me and DV before we used an ability and still have multiple roleblocks, multiple doc protects, a targeted lightning rod, and an investigative is a ton of power.
And that's before the fact that toms redirect informed it was a redirect when used without tom being aware of it. Which drastically weakens it.
And then, the odds DBS hits Kaba on N2? Again, good call? Bad luck? Certainly some of both.
LW giving Jenna a BP that night was open information, he even said he was going to do it.
Az was maybe an every other day Doc at best. And Joe basically wasn't anything until he got to 9 BP, which meant N3 at the very earliest if he betrayed everyone while they still allied him, and no one messed with it.
I don't know. I thought most of the Town roles were fairly bad, as these things go. Which is not to say that the Mafia roles were better, just that it wasn't the super imbalance you maybe felt like it was, because of how it played out.
I'm all for being reported and warned for breaking rules because my Italian side tends to get the best of me, but I find it to be a conflict of interest when a player in this case, a player that is a mod of this forum, focusing more on reporting me then playing the game, I find it to be a slight conflict of interest here, and then there's the fact that some people just barely pass the afk test, and thats all they do... Cythare im looking at you again...
and what was that, "i'm bored of this game post" Kinda irked me
I agree with this, overall Phoenix did a good job of staying alive, in a very unlucky day 2, and Tom is honestly really good at manipulating, and was fun to play with
Every. Single. Night.
And, sure. Whisper n3 and axel n4 were the absolute zenith for how those roles could be used.
My role was very strong, but would have been better as tiered like joe or split up. Or if we could share bp.
Kabas was fine.
Cyths was technically good but decidedly overcosted
Phoenixs was meh we thought about trying to leverage iso or dawn wasting kp there but it never went that way
And y'all just had everything
Agreed with this. I don't feel like it was fair that we won. We had counters to everything you could do, and then additional abilities in top of that. And two doctors, two roleblockers, and two vigilantes.
There was nobody else I could think to track. He was the scummiest player at the time. Why was everyone townreading him on Day 1??
PS: not sure why you thought I was scummy day 1
also probably townsided due to half the team not invested in the game.
tbh... my analysis sucks lol. mentioned it somewhere in this mess that I'm bad at conveying my thoughts properly. the reasons and cases are there, but I can't parse it together in a way that makes sense like it does in my head. practice makes perfect tho~
but I could've done better I guess, since forming the right team out of the wrong person (town!Shin) was derp. lmao
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
1. scum lied about their starting BP.
2. such an algorithm exists in the RNG site that was used, and the hosts changed sites after the 4th Night.
Be grateful, always."
@Phoenix: Do I know you? I wanna know who you are.
Funnily enough I think the most powerful roles for the town side were DBS and JoeTerry roles. Those roles always did something and that was really good.
I think the scum did get screwed over by the two replacements. But I also had a huge frustration with the Town play more than that. Phoenix's claim was so bad it wasn't even funny. It makes no sense at all. Why would it pass to another player? The first part seemed goodish but the second part of that claim was so bad, but somehow it slid through. Meanwhile we had a miss lynch because a player couldn't even be bothered to read the primer and allied because they thought it was -3 BP for betraying. LUL. We also had our RB who had RB'd TWO NK not claim which is strange to say the least.
There was some stand out play from the Town. Not killing Azreal/the claimed RB sooner was questionable by the scum.
Oh also,
Sick plays.
He's a wolf...
He lances a lot of shade.
Osi-Phoenix Night 2 chat (Shoulda realized...)
Osi-Az Night 3 chat
Osi-Phoenix Night 4 chat
Or it could actually just be random.
For the design, I'll let Bur talk about it since it's his baby and all I did was review it, but the basic assumption was town would try and control the A/B game (which they kind of did, but not as much as I expected), whereas the scum had the advantage of being able to coordinate their own positions to optimise the team points - especially if they got paired together (which is why their abilities were more expensive). There was a lot of overlap/redundancy on town abilities because the cost of using them and uncertain point generation meant the uptime would be very sketchy. We were also expecting at least a few deaths from the A/B which would have benefitted the scum.
Also, Jenna, the A/B pairings were 100% random so you really wasted an awful lot of time and words seeing patterns in noise.
Osie, sorry I was on the verge of blowing up on you so much.
Our abilities were overcosted because we could coordinate bp if we got lucky enough to pair with each other though? That's pretty iffy.
And yeah I was just watching that nonrandom pairings thing happen knowing I had lied about my starting bp AND ability use just trying not to be gleeful about it
Ain't no one reading back
I deserved that at least some, mostly late game. I was pretty out of things due to getting busy with other games, school, etc. Shadow/Phoenix did a great job at pocketing me in the early game that carried over way too hard into the later game.
This game was exhausting, and while there was a lot of bad play on both sides of the aisle, there were some very good moments as well.
I hope that Jenna, Phraze, Shinichi, and Wisp continue to stick around.
Second that.
I want to say that despite a lot of this rhetoric going around, I got very used to looking back at ISOs, especially with a Find tool. Jenna's list of claims helped a ton, and I bookmarked it not long after she posted it.
Like, Azrael kinda hinted that noone was reading him here:
I had Az's ISO open so much to look back at... Probably more than any other ISO this game.
Pretty much after Day 2, at which point I got hard-tunneled on Az, mostly because of tone, I was looking for anything to go either way. It bothered me in particular just how little I could find to townlean him outside of the effort put in to making the ISOs. The Night 3 neighbour chat if anything hurt more than help, given that Az seemed to be disengaged. Az's push on me seemed to come out of nowhere, and it was incredibly glaring to me that he never did a PBPA on me. He also backed off without even declaring it, just focusing on something else, which felt very strange.
Oh, and now that the game is over, D_V said something fitting to me I do think should be brought up:
But I had fun. Thank you for the game.
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StaffI actually wanted to roll town or neutral this game more than scum because I feel like my weaker town play is more worth escaping than my scum play. Of course then I rolled scum and was like “yeah alright”. I intentionally played much more scheduled and pulled back from the thread, partially because it was such a huge game that I didn’t want to get completely burned out by posting a huge amount, and partially because I could only get my login to work on my work phone, which I use less.
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StaffDBS's method of reading me was one way. There was a lot of taking data points that other players dismissed as WIFOM trash, and sifting them for decisive tells.
Tracking the motivation behind my posts is another good method. What is the town motivation vs the scum motivation. Am I disinterested in engaging with you by night because I am intimidated I'll be caught, or am I just not expecting it to be a productive conversation. Am I failing to PBPA you because I can't fake a good read on you, or because you posted 27 pages of material and counting and all of it looked agonizingly town. (Note, you weren't the only person who got an abbreviated treatment, because I was struggling to reread the entire frickin player base in one swoop.)
I tried to make it easy to parse those reasons, by declaring them outright. You just have to decide if those were natural responses to what was going on, or not. Not whether you like them or dislike them. Whether they are natural. Understandable.
It's also very difficult to credibly fake genuine, stream of consciousness scum hunting. Sometimes people don't scum hunt all that hard, or don't get emotionally involved, and the scum can blend in with that to an extent. But then you will have a moment where someone who is clearly passionate about what they are doing, or thinking really detailed thoughts about what is going on. And you get these brief, brilliant glimmers that would be nigh impossible to fake.
As a townie, I glimmer all over the thread, consistently. Most people teaditionally say that makes me a super easy town read - which has always made it very, very hard for me to play a decent scum game. Don't look for effort, effort can come from any number of reasons. WHY is there effort. Get inside their head. See if it makes sense. And if you have a tough time empathizing with someone well enough to do that, ask enough questions that you can flesh it out.
Part of why I always tend to incorrectly scum read Iso, but later flip to a town read on him, is our personalities are very, very different in a number of respects. And his actions match with some of the scum traits I look for, too. But given enough time and questioning, as in this game, I can eventually find a way to grasp how it is he is looking at the game, even if it is completely different or bizzare to me from how I approach it. All it takes is one piece of the puzzle to click on sometimes, like being able to understand how someone who now only posts from work could have a very different playstyle than they used to.
I'm also good at dealing in limited information too haha
I hope so too! still trying to work on my vocab and communication skills. this site
ruleshelped alotBe grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
I didn’t gamethrow. dawn having more BP means she is less likely to die in the event that she gets betrayed by scum at 1 BP, because that was still very much a possibility with 2 scum alive. I also think removing Shinichi from the mislynch pool was the correct decision, because I couldn’t have been the only one who didn’t think he was totally cleared. Regardless, we won, so
Sorry if I was overly rude to anyone in this game. I absolutely can not stand it when people try to get me to repeat myself, and the fact that Az was the number one anti-Iso player due to him not reading what I’ve been saying about my activity level for quite some time, now, was, I hope, understandably frustrating.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
"Does betraying not rob a person of 3 BP? If not, well, oops"
Also didn't you counter claim someone this game because you didn't even understand your role PM?
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModNot that it would've done anything, since Phoenix was bulletproof.
It's the same reason why I thought that Iso allying dawn was actually beneficial to the town, since dawn shooting PF wouldn't have done anything anyways.
Anyways, post game thoughts:
Like Proph already said, we made some slightly radical last minute changes.
We had to change the AB from +3/-2 to +3/-1, since no matter how we tried to balance it, games would end up really swingy.
In original version, scum could've won D2 after a single mislynch if they got bit lucky with AB choices. And if we boosted starting BP, if town forces "All Ally" -strategy, town would've gotten tons of activations, which wasn't what we intended.
We also implemented "no suicide" rule to reduce swinginess from AB games, though now that the game is over we probably shouldn't have added that rule.
However, all these changes to the rules really left their impact on the roles, since some roles didn't work anymore in the new set-up.
We originally had for example a passive that reduced BP loss from getting betrayed (lose 1 instead of 2) and dawn's role started at 5 BP, a required EXACTLY 3 or 1 BP to be able to use their role.
And then we ended up scrapping the neutral survivor variant (who Axel was supposed to be) and added one town instead to keep the player count at 17 (so that as long as there wasn't no lynch or missed NKs, there wouldn't be anyone left without a pair in AB game).
We also swithced around quite many of the role alignment-wise. Neighbouriser town in every other and scum in every other version of this set-up.
Self-watcher was originally town (but not the BP-stealing part). List goes on.
And LnGr, the reason why your role wasn't really good was partially since you were intended to be a glorified VT and partly since we considered making AB results not public at all, but decided not to go that way in the end.
Anyways, if I could change things now, I'd probably at least make LW's role cost 2, to mirror Cyth's role (originally both cost 1 to activate), give PF an activated ability to use all his BP (we realised halfway D1 that PF's role was completely disconnected from the all game-mechanics and neither me, Proph, Eco or Zionite noticed this >_>) and lower tom's ability's BP costs.
And then MVP's:
Town MVP - Azrael. For climbing his way out of mislynch pool, not giving in despite everyone ignoring him and catching scum team in the end.
Honorary Mention - dawningbluesky. For blocking NK twice successfully and not using their ability on town even once (redirect doesn't count, they originally aimed it at PF).
Mafia MVP - PhoenixFire. For getting caught N1 performing NK, making up really clunky claim on the spot, convincing that their role was real even though all of my previous games pointed at the other direction AND making it alive to the Day 7 MyLo.
That's it from me for now, I truly thank all of you who participated in this game.
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StaffAnd then when people said I was lying cause my claimed role didn’t use BP it was hilarious cause they were right but not because of that.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
There's a difference between "throwing the game" and "could have chosen a better Vig target", is my point. Throwing the game is an action taken to deliberately screw my team and is an intentional screw-up that directly results in a game loss. My actions were not performed out of malice or with the intent to cause my team to lose. My team won. What I did, while not optimal, was not not a "gamethrow".
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
tbh I thought giving BP cost 1 to give 1, which would result in a -2.
better if it was a threshold, to mirror the RB/vig and JoAT. in the end, all scum flips never had thresholds... lol.
while I would say thanks.. still curious why redirects gave out names? it was as if there were cop abilities in the setup itself.
if Iso took out Tom, he would pass his ability to Phoenix who had a stash of BP to use. if he tried Phoenix, it would result in no deaths. and overall, Shin was kinda pocketed (to have lived so long), so it wasn't a bad move lol. and we were in the tunnel that Iso should take out someone, without knowing 1 scum could pass on abilities if they die and 1 scum was bulletproof.
Be grateful, always."
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModI've been under assumption that not informing players about redirects is inherently bastard-ish.
Like, imagine DV targeting tom and getting redirected to Grape. He'd be told that his target was "town" but not that he was redirected.
(And before anyone brings up godfathers: I hate that role and design my set-ups so that there is never need for one.)
Sometimes, it also helps to coach what happened in terms of flavor, to keep things a bit more vague, and allow room for creative false-claiming rather than explicitly telling players "your ability was successful, except some dude redirected you to target X."
not a first tho. the thing is that, town/scum redirectors had the ability to tap into the setup's innate cop/investigative system. that, along with a town vengeful, made this game have more 'investigatives' than expected. counting town vengeful here since they reveal alignments, at least by suicide. [maybe add some all-purpose line like "your action has been intercepted, *results here*".]not that it was unbalanced, since that many roleblockers were crazy too (and enough to counter it), but the game turned out to have more 'investigatives' than expected...
Be grateful, always."
Second, thank you to our new comers DBS, Last Whisper and Jenna. I hope you'll stick around your improvement over the course of this game was notable.
DBS, I know there was stuff I wanted to talk to you about post game, but I forgot what that was. A couple things to help towards your improvement. Never self vote, it is always against your Wincon and is lazy. Be more careful with your claims. You were too fast to claim. I still feel like the night we both thought we blocked the shot my logic was better
LW, I hope you learned a little bit of humility through this game because I think when it boiled down, that's what got you scum read Day 1. I think you proved yourself a competent player, but a little jumpy. You actually saved more people from dying than I did!
Jenna, you proved yourself smart and I hope you learned to not to mess around with gimmicks. This would have been a lot smoother if you had just stuck to the play style you ended up finishing the game with. Good job!
I agree with Az as the Town MVP, not because his reads were good, not because he made any amazing plays, but because he stuck it out when he could have easily raised his hands up in frustration and phoned it in. You kept battling and ended up pulling it off (Was that backhanded enough?). I knew I was going to get shot at some point and was honestly hoping my flip would post mortem CC you, which is also why I didn't want to Lynch Phoenix. The Nurse/Doc thing was the one thing that prevented me from aggro lynching you while I was alive.
@ALL: What'd people think about me lying about my choice to lie about my ability? I tried some misdirection, but not sure if it ended up being counter productive at all.
I felt like scum started off strong with a reviver and a cop dead in the first to deaths, but when PF got tracked stuff kind of death spiraled for them. If I was ever able to get on the same page as Az, it could have been pretty gnarly with 2 active docs. There were an awful lot of ways for town to protect and get info in this game.
My analysis of Kaba's role claim. That was fully legit, I really thought he just claimed a boner checking hooker. I'm an idiot.