1. I townfirm Axel because I think I'm the one who blocked the kill, just like you SHOULD scumfirm kaba because you think you blocked the kill, but you went and voted shin.
2. Well its on the record you said you were trying to block the NK.
3.How can you sit here in point 3 and say you assume you blocked the kill and question me why I make that exact same assumption in point 1? The issue I take is with your reasoning for picking kaba to block. Is based on association to scum shin, but you don't know that shin is scum.
4. It's completely bonkers that you don't see how me blocking the kill townfirms axel and why you have an issue with me doing so.
5. Don't you see the critical aspect to this? I'm not focused on town clearing myself. When I Came Out With My info, I Was Only Saying To Town Clear axel. So to answer your question bluntly, I think you should think I'm town because I'm not focused on myself, I'm focused on solving the game around me by clearing other people that I can trust. I think it's a much more common scenerio where scum say they did something just to get townfirm themselves not that common for scum to say something to townfirm another player because confirmed town are really bad for them.
There is no reason for either of you to confirm anyone as anything. Apparently, no one can be bothered to wait one single solitary day to see what actually happened before jumping off a bridge. Empiricism going put of fashion up in this piece, apparently.
There is no reason for either of you to confirm anyone as anything. Apparently, no one can be bothered to wait one single solitary day to see what actually happened before jumping off a bridge. Empiricism going put of fashion up in this piece, apparently.
There is no reason for either of you to confirm anyone as anything. Apparently, no one can be bothered to wait one single solitary day to see what actually happened before jumping off a bridge. Empiricism going put of fashion up in this piece, apparently.
this is a bit disingenuous when I think the only other person that might have been lynched today was you
@DBS I rather not be lynched anymore because I dont know how well this game is going for the town but i don't want to be the one to die knowing I am town, if you still think i am scum after this phase then, by all means, pursue me but rather kaba or azreal this phase.
if being lynched or killed will help town's PoE, there's no reason to refuse. and Azrael isn't on my list, why do you mention him?
Because hes someone that alot of people suspect, i was specifically targeted people you read just those that the majority read. No no it wont because as u can see town has lost quite alot and scum have lost nothing so what does lynching another town do?
1. I want you to answer my question there. why do you townfirm Axel if your message only confirms activating your ability? where does it confirm Axel's alignment?
2. blocking the BP thief was a primary concern, with NK as a 2nd. nothing guarantees how RBs work on this site, especially to a newcomer. is that or isn't that a logical conclusion?
3. blocking Kaba by interaction with Shin is quite helpful. since no kill went through, or thievery, it's safe to assume I blocked one of them. the only problem I would have is......if Kaba is the BP Taker and town - that was why I "didn't vote the person I RB'd".
4. I did factor in you blocking the NK while I blocked the thief, but it is muddied by you townfirming Axel. your ability and message clearly isn't an indication towards alignment. for this I'm willing to consider you scum, even if Axel dies.
explain to me why I should think you're town, with all the reasons given.
2.Roleblocking almost always stops the night kill atleast I would think it does, since that is considered a night ability.
3.Thats only if you believe ISO tho, if no one else came forth that says alot. If your roleblocking did stop the theivery then thats even more a reason to lynch kaba.
4.Again i feel like alot of people town read axel before this and the fact that terry knows axel will die means that mafia had to have targeted axel unless you think mafia attacked there own.
@DBS honestly if u think u blocked the night kill u should be voting said person, terry has a very good point. You stated how u choose not to block phoenix because you wanted to stop the NK yet its quite possible you did but you aren't voting that person.
Why?
Also im sick of waiting for kaba to respond to this game
this is a bit disingenuous when I think the only other person that might have been lynched today was you
I believe the word you're looking for is dangerous, not disingenuous.
Disingenuous would be suggesting there is something deceitful about someone so exasperated with the town's level of play that he will tell them the truth even at the risk of his own life. That seems to fit the bill for disingenuous rather nicely, in fact.
this is a bit disingenuous when I think the only other person that might have been lynched today was you
I believe the word you're looking for is dangerous, not disingenuous.
Disingenuous would be suggesting there is something deceitful about someone so exasperated with the town's level of play that he will tell them the truth even at the risk of his own life. That seems to fit the bill for disingenuous rather nicely, in fact.
Terry, there is my suggestion for the lynch.
I dont care much for who you want to lynch, i also stated Who i am willing to vote terry aint on that list.
this is a bit disingenuous when I think the only other person that might have been lynched today was you
I believe the word you're looking for is dangerous, not disingenuous.
Disingenuous would be suggesting there is something deceitful about someone so exasperated with the town's level of play that he will tell them the truth even at the risk of his own life. That seems to fit the bill for disingenuous rather nicely, in fact.
Terry, there is my suggestion for the lynch.
I dont care much for who you want to lynch, i also stated Who i am willing to vote terry aint on that list.
I read Az's post saying Tom was his suggestion and he was adressing to me.
I unvoted because I really want to give Axel the full phase to work in case he dies.
this is a bit disingenuous when I think the only other person that might have been lynched today was you
I believe the word you're looking for is dangerous, not disingenuous.
Disingenuous would be suggesting there is something deceitful about someone so exasperated with the town's level of play that he will tell them the truth even at the risk of his own life. That seems to fit the bill for disingenuous rather nicely, in fact.
Terry, there is my suggestion for the lynch.
I dont care much for who you want to lynch, i also stated Who i am willing to vote terry aint on that list.
I read Az's post saying Tom was his suggestion and he was adressing to me.
I unvoted because I really want to give Axel the full phase to work in case he dies.
Im just wondering why the person who seems mighty confident that they stopped the night kill is not voting anymore
I think it's more likely I stopped it then DBS. I'm not voting kaba because we have 4 days left in this phase and I want to interact with axel more in case he dies
You do all realize we could do this tomorrow with an extreme improvement in our information?
We have two claimed alternatives for the NK. One of them will be ruled out at end of day. Why are we doing this now?
Lynch on behavior. We have four days. Even if that means you start running up the doctor again, can we try to put some thought and effort into this? Because if not, we're sunk.
I don't see how anything other than fatigue and lack of effort can explain why we're trying to rush to solve this now, instead of waiting to see what happens as a result of these two claimed abilities. If Axelrod dies at end of day, what's the case against Kaba for tomorrow? That people misinterpreted his claim at first, or think it's a little odd? That he's a lurker, like a quarter of the playerbase?
az you seem to be ignoring that kaba came in here and played like caught scum
seriously tho... idk whats up with Azreal...
Lynch on behavior. We have four days. Even if that means you start running up the doctor again, can we try to put some thought and effort into this? Because if not, we're sunk.
I don't see how anything other than fatigue and lack of effort can explain why we're trying to rush to solve this now, instead of waiting to see what happens as a result of these two claimed abilities. If Axelrod dies at end of day, what's the case against Kaba for tomorrow? That people misinterpreted his claim at first, or think it's a little odd? That he's a lurker, like a quarter of the playerbase?
You act like Kaba has been epitamy of the perfect town... he only comes in, in short burst, follows the best trains then dips out again... and why does all ur points turn into, "maybe we should just push me again," and Idk how this is even rushed... like are you defending Kaba? I dont understand what your trying to accomplish with this kind of talk... once ounce of your brain still sees any bit of town in anything that Kaba has done so far? and how is a quarter of this game lurking? I am not waiting tomorrow to see if Axel dies... we talked about that stupid Occams Razer bs before... so why now are we straying away from it...
tbh I think tomorrow will just lead to more questions then answers... cause lets say Axel does die... can we prove that Terry has delay death rather just just poison? no... and if its poison then Kaba can still be scum...
imo if Kaba lives today, then we are still stuck in a wifom... because think of all the ******* scenarios that could happen going into the next day...
1. Axel dies (by delay or poison we cant deduce this)
2. Axel dies (by mafia nk, which could easily happen, which we also cant deduce) again does this prove terry is scum, no... because mafia can be creating wifom to make us think this...
3. Axel doesnt die... then Kaba was most likely the killer... so why not remove this from the equation today?
4. Axel dies... Terry is actually the poisoner(cant prove yet), and now going into the next day we have 2 deaths, and if we have no scum lynch at this point it would be bad
Like do you even have other suggestions then just committing suicide?
Azreal
either I feel like lynching Kaba today would be better... cause anyone you wanna lynch I probably dont...
If you read my posts, you'd know what my suggestions are. I'm not subtle about it. Iso and Tom.
Kama may or may not be scum. But no one has put in the case work to figure it out. Do I like his reaction under pressure? Not particularly. But you yourself highlighted that even after tomorrow, we still have a ton of unanswered questions.
Your answer to that is to smash the mystery with gigantic hammer. To "solve" the mystery by putting a bullet in his brain.
My suggestion is that we don't investigate people with bullets. That we analyze him before we do something irrevocable, such as possibly waste our d3 lynch on a guy who's already declared he's having some kind of computer issues, when Iso and Tom have practically claimed scum for all to see, behaviorally.
My suggestion is that we use our brains, LW. Not that you lynch me, not that you do or don't lynch kaba, but that whatever we do, we do it with a decent PBPA and some actual thought to back it up.
There are too many questions marks in the town to just spray bullets indiscriminately at them. You have to be judicious. Choose your shots, not lurch drunkenly from one shiny object to the next without researching.
There are too many questions marks in the town to just spray bullets indiscriminately at them. You have to be judicious. Choose your shots, not lurch drunkenly from one shiny object to the next without researching.
votes are the strongest tool for town... And if we think of them as bullets then that's what they are... It's basically a town consensus vigilante... So why wait tmr for something we can answer today?
Explain to where you see that Tom and Iso claimed scum behaviorally? Tbh I'm more inclinded then I ever was this game to believe Tom is scum... But I can't make a case on him... If you can, then go for it...
Wake up, ladies and gentlemen. We're here to play mafia, not russian roulette. A game of deduction! Wits! Intelligence! Logic! Analysis!
So let's analyze!
I understand where you're coming from. spared scum a few phases trying to case em before. also seen how half-assed cases on someone leads to a less-than-satisfying victory...sometimes they wouldn't even be happy about losing.
1. Terry is townfirming someone, and he's not cop. like I mentioned before, even if I were cop and I get this or that result - I would make sure there's nothing messy before I even trust it. Terry ain't even a cop, is already townfirming someone cuz he successfully activated his ability, and scumreads someone who distrusts their abilities. that isn't the caution town would have - I can excuse it if it were newb behavior, but he's even more experienced than I am.
2. Kaba said he never submitted an action... ok. Killjoy claimed JoAT watcher and Jenna claimed tracker... why did he not look into those claims? I find it hard to think he would let that many claims slide so easily, when his role was similar. Killjoy even got lynched for "not paying attention", shouldn't that apply to Kaba as well? when asked to claim, he claimed a similar role as Jenna/Killjoy, and while it initially came off workable it's still bad considering we had 2 claimed investigatives already.
Shinichi says we only have Iso's word to go for having a BP Taker around, but we also have Last's role for further proof. if we add 'that weird claim' and 'this proof of no BP theft', Kaba fits. if he claimed BP Taker and town, then I might be having a dilemma.
3. as for Shinichi.. meta says he's scum, but he claims otherwise. we're just going to let a roleblocker roam freely and mess with our results? town made their choice. at least I'm a legit roleblocker with limitations, not like him who gets to use it every Night~
4. in terms of behavior, I daresay some flaws are due to in-game exhaustion. and logically speaking, scum would be the shiniest in terms of behavior since they're winning. I think Iso is town, with the way he was hounded for like...a phase or 2. Tom/LnG/Cyth are all in that vague pile I can't and prefer not to figure out like, please be town so I won't have to deal with you.
I think this is analysis enough. mostly hinged on roles I know, but that's the loophole they're trying to use to clear themselves.
if we're going to go with a more agreeable target, I think we should lynch Shinichi. he's been antitown all game anyways, with his only defense as being a decent person.
Private Mod Note
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Tbh I feel like the only way to not end up with 20 questions tmr, is to Lynch Kaba today...
I wonder why you didn't think this the previous phase, when Shinichi's flip will answer your 20 questions about me, and lynched Killjoy who had 0 answers to any question - moreso when he claimed. outdated excuse. not like we should let Kaba off though lol, but can you try to make a more up-to-date reason for us to lynch on? this should've been used the last phase...
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
If you read my posts, you'd know what my suggestions are. I'm not subtle about it. Iso and Tom.
Kama may or may not be scum. But no one has put in the case work to figure it out. Do I like his reaction under pressure? Not particularly. But you yourself highlighted that even after tomorrow, we still have a ton of unanswered questions.
Your answer to that is to smash the mystery with gigantic hammer. To "solve" the mystery by putting a bullet in his brain.
My suggestion is that we don't investigate people with bullets. That we analyze him before we do something irrevocable, such as possibly waste our d3 lynch on a guy who's already declared he's having some kind of computer issues, when Iso and Tom have practically claimed scum for all to see, behaviorally.
My suggestion is that we use our brains, LW. Not that you lynch me, not that you do or don't lynch kaba, but that whatever we do, we do it with a decent PBPA and some actual thought to back it up.
Go do it then. You're railing because no one has properly evaluated Kaba and this is just a circle-jerk lynch, while at the same time stating that you yourself haven't had the time to do a proper eval of him. But you did evals on like half the player base in just a few hours before, and Kaba has less posts than any of them. So, go do what you're complaining we haven't done and give an opinion, if you then have one.
I re-read Kaba's stuff and came away with not much. He's just kind of been there this game. Your case on Iso is primarily that he hasn't been playing like Town-Iso. While that may be true, it's hardly slam-dunk material. Your case on Tom is also very meta. Tom is crafty and hard to catch. True. I'm super wary of him, but at the same time, he's not said much of anything that raised a Red Flag for me, and many things that made complete sense, so it feels nuts to pick him over someone playing objectively worse.
And, Terry, I don't know what you expect me to say before dying. If you are expecting me to do some kind of huge analysis of everyone remaining, you are likely to be disappointed. The game is too big and I'm simply not taking the amount of time that would be required. And I could do it and be totally wrong anyway (see Killjoy) which makes it definitely not feel like it's worth the effort. You will get my spot analysis of situations, and probably not much more.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Tbh I feel like the only way to not end up with 20 questions tmr, is to Lynch Kaba today...
I wonder why you didn't think this the previous phase, when Shinichi's flip will answer your 20 questions about me, and lynched Killjoy who had 0 answers to any question - moreso when he claimed. outdated excuse. not like we should let Kaba off though lol, but can you try to make a more up-to-date reason for us to lynch on? this should've been used the last phase...
I am not doubting that shinichi's lynch would answer 20 questions... but im not trying to lynch on information alone... the difference between kaba and shinichi is that I believe kaba in this case has a 90% chance of flipping scum... and I was wrong about killjoy, get over it... I'm not always right, and we've both seen our fair share of mislynches... but if your gunna be that person who comes out on the next day and says, "I told you so, " then idk what to say... I refuse to be a part of this Shin vs Dawn war... b/c I think you are both town...
Tbh I feel like the only way to not end up with 20 questions tmr, is to Lynch Kaba today...
But it's punting, LW. The point of a lynch isn't to clear up question marks and make things simpler, it's to kill scum. If you kill everyone in the town with a question mark over their head, there'd be no one left. We're supposed to answer those questions for ourselves - not leave the questions hanging in the air, blow somebody away, and say "Oh, I guess he was townie after all! Mystery solved!"
1. Terry is townfirming someone, and he's not cop. like I mentioned before, even if I were cop and I get this or that result - I would make sure there's nothing messy before I even trust it. Terry ain't even a cop, is already townfirming someone cuz he successfully activated his ability, and scumreads someone who distrusts their abilities. that isn't the caution town would have - I can excuse it if it were newb behavior, but he's even more experienced than I am.
The way he's been playing this game, is like an extreme J on Myers Briggs. Undue certainty on a TON of issues where certainty isn't warranted. My read is that that's just his personality, not scum-influenced.
Quote from DBS »
2. Kaba said he never submitted an action... ok. Killjoy claimed JoAT watcher and Jenna claimed tracker... why did he not look into those claims? I find it hard to think he would let that many claims slide so easily, when his role was similar. Killjoy even got lynched for "not paying attention", shouldn't that apply to Kaba as well?
And how did that approach work out for us, on KJ?
That was a scum trap, DBS. Pick on a townie for misplaying, and get the town to punish them for the misplay.
Az, since when do we ignore Night actions that strongly suggest that somebody is scum? I mean, really. Why are we pussyfooting around this? There is no reason not to lynch Kaba toDay - he clearly has no interest in returning to the game. Let’s get our first scum lynch instead of just “oh I think this person might be scum so let me disregard reality for a moment.”
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Tbh I feel like the only way to not end up with 20 questions tmr, is to Lynch Kaba today...
But it's punting, LW. The point of a lynch isn't to clear up question marks and make things simpler, it's to kill scum. If you kill everyone in the town with a question mark over their head, there'd be no one left. We're supposed to answer those questions for ourselves - not leave the questions hanging in the air, blow somebody away, and say "Oh, I guess he was townie after all! Mystery solved!"
1. Terry is townfirming someone, and he's not cop. like I mentioned before, even if I were cop and I get this or that result - I would make sure there's nothing messy before I even trust it. Terry ain't even a cop, is already townfirming someone cuz he successfully activated his ability, and scumreads someone who distrusts their abilities. that isn't the caution town would have - I can excuse it if it were newb behavior, but he's even more experienced than I am.
The way he's been playing this game, is like an extreme J on Myers Briggs. Undue certainty on a TON of issues where certainty isn't warranted. My read is that that's just his personality, not scum-influenced.
Quote from DBS »
2. Kaba said he never submitted an action... ok. Killjoy claimed JoAT watcher and Jenna claimed tracker... why did he not look into those claims? I find it hard to think he would let that many claims slide so easily, when his role was similar. Killjoy even got lynched for "not paying attention", shouldn't that apply to Kaba as well?
And how did that approach work out for us, on KJ?
That was a scum trap, DBS. Pick on a townie for misplaying, and get the town to punish them for the misplay.
Whenever I can scrape up the time, I'm happy to do so, as you noted. But there should be more than just a couple people doing it. This is a team game.
I feel like you are cleverly doing nothing in an attempt to draw votes to yourself instead of Kabazame. Every recent post has felt disconnected from what is going on, and when I see you post, you post nothing at all related to what I want to see from you. Every post is standoffish and neutral when I desperately want to see you to do something, anything meaningful now.
I feel like you are cleverly doing nothing in an attempt to draw votes to yourself instead of Kabazame. Every recent post has felt disconnected from what is going on, and when I see you post, you post nothing at all related to what I want to see from you. Every post is standoffish and neutral when I desperately want to see you to do something, anything meaningful now.
*cocks head*
Do you realize, that's how I think most players feel about the majority of your posting history? It's like your scum buddies have been arguing that you need to do a better job of avoiding just that, and you canned it, regurgitated as an attack back at me.
Az, since when do we ignore Night actions that strongly suggest that somebody is scum? I mean, really. Why are we pussyfooting around this? There is no reason not to lynch Kaba toDay - he clearly has no interest in returning to the game. Let’s get our first scum lynch instead of just “oh I think this person might be scum so let me disregard reality for a moment.”
What night actions? The ones that "strongly" indicate that Terry blocked the kill, or the ones that "strongly" indicate that Kaba is scum?
We have literally no reason to decide that any of these narratives is "stronger" than the other. So why are you pushing one of them over the other, other than the one let's you score yet another cheap mislynch?
Az, since when do we ignore Night actions that strongly suggest that somebody is scum? I mean, really. Why are we pussyfooting around this? There is no reason not to lynch Kaba toDay - he clearly has no interest in returning to the game. Let’s get our first scum lynch instead of just “oh I think this person might be scum so let me disregard reality for a moment.”
What night actions? The ones that "strongly" indicate that Terry blocked the kill, or the ones that "strongly" indicate that Kaba is scum?
We have literally no reason to decide that any of these narratives is "stronger" than the other. So why are you pushing one of them over the other, other than the one let's you score yet another cheap mislynch?
EVERYTHING CAN BE SEEN AS A WIFOM... THE POINT IS YOU CHOOSE THE ONE MOST LOGICLY TO YOU... OR FINDS WAYS TO PROVE ONE IS MORE PROBABLE... YOU DONT SIT IN LIMBO TWIDDLING YOUR THUMBS
EVERYTHING CAN BE SEEN AS A WIFOM... THE POINT IS YOU CHOOSE THE ONE MOST LOGICLY TO YOU... OR FINDS WAYS TO PROVE ONE IS MORE PROBABLE... YOU DONT SIT IN LIMBO TWIDDLING YOUR THUMBS
1. You're mis-using the term WIFOM.
2. Waiting in limbo is exactly what you do, if what you need is for the end of today to provide clarity on what happened.
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Stealing a break as being attacked by my children. Just finished Tom PBPA, posting without summary for now. Please read thoroughly.
Ok. 27 pages of Tomsloger analysis commencing. As ever, I'm not going to include all 404 posts he's made. I'm simply going to select the ones that most strongly indicate either town or scum alignment.
1. There are a number of things on pg. 1 of Tom's posting history during RVS stage that are pretty minor. I don't think they're worth going into detail on. Subtle things, like complimenting people for being suspicious of or wary of Tom's ability as scum.
Quote from Tom »
not quoting osi's spoiler post but i like the way hes not reading me if that makes any sense.
when he quotes me its just interaction. its not pressure, its not defensive, its not even (particularly) pockety.
and then he talks to people (terry, dv, blues) about me like he actually wants to hear what they have to say.
its probing rather than encouraging. without agenda. cautious?
idk i feel like hes... not scared of me exactly but. yeah. cautious.
feels real with out history
Decently truthy post from Tom. Whatever alignment Tom is, I think Tom believes this to be true about Osie, and that he thought about it before posting.
Quote from Tom »
and the dv i know and love saves this ***** and tries to bury joeterry later in the phase
overall feels like hes just trying to link people together and is not actually trying to get reads on people
im missing the inquisitiveness. the sense of impending gotcha. the reactionary swings.
its like normal town dv is a rather rowdy child and hes pretending to be an adult right now. not like, super adult. still with the gifs or whatever. but hes trying to be even.
and its not normal
I'd give this post about a "C" grade on the scale of convincing, as to being A) True about DV, and B) Convincing as something that Tom actually thinks is true.
Quote from dbs »
trolling on purpose? this kind of behavior isn't helpful to town yknow. if I have no scumreads by the end of the Day, I sure won't mind lynching u. just saying.
Quote from tom »
youll learn to love me
This very short post is a good example of what Tom's mentality in playing the game. He wants to have fun, and he likes being likable. He's smart enough and hard-working enough to put in effort, but he also enjoys using his charisma to coax reactions out of people, and cozy up to them. That's a skill that can be used either for good or evil, but it's important to recognize that that's the kind of person Tom is.
Quote from tom »
meta is a comparison
this is your first time seeing me be town, yes?
what are you comparing too?
like, you think confidence is a tomscum tell? nah bro.
Why ask that first question? Obviously, logically, the person he's conversing with can't know the answer to that question. So from a logical standpoint, this proves nothing. And Tom knows that.
The reason to post it, is because he's trying to plant that idea in his subject's mind. He's trying to persuade him, that he's town, and that his meta rationale is off-target.
Now, occasionally a manipulative or defensive townie might do that, but it's more often something you see from scum. Most townies are always bearing in mind that the other townies can't know who they are.
Also, note the complete absence of any OMGUS tendencies here. That could be either because town Tom doesn't have any suspicions of Terry, or it could be because he's trying to manage Terry. I don't see much of anything that leads me one way or another on that question here, though.
Quote from tom »
dont think this is a fair assessment at all
Tom definitely still town-reading Osie hard. Ok.
2. Around page 25, there's a 5 man wagon on LW. Tom doesn't jump on it, or comment on it at all, that I can see. He only engaged on some peripheral rationales with people, as quoted above.
This is a wonderfully effective, classic playstyle for intelligent scum. It makes it obvious that they are aware of the wagon, and participating. But it leaves them entirely flexible to either jump on and bury someone, or to stay off, and avoid making an enemy or getting their credibility dinged up.
It doesn't match well with a townie rationale, however. If someone is that major of a wagon, a townie who's smart and active is generally going to have some kind of opinion to share about it, to try to influence the town one way or another.
This is a repeated pattern we'll see in Tom's play over later days. I didn't recall seeing it this early in the game before, but after having seen it a couple days in a row, I'm not shocked to see it this early on in D1.
Quote from tom »
his progressions are a bit weird, and i think thats the best part of this post.
keeping track of your own list and thus viewing the game that way is something i do in mashes where i cant keep everyone straight, so its a bit odd that osi is doing it in a game this small. (man you should have seen me in the danganropa mash, where everyone was an alias account with a japanese name and i couldnt differentiate anyone. i gave a readslist like, every dozen posts because of it.)
osi's hedginess/escape clauses is why i tried to lead his mislynch in apocalypse before he got himself modkilled. so its normal for town osi.
fluff also nai
i think osi is still more likely to be town than not, but i like your reasoning in this post
This post is snipped slightly due to multi-quotes - hate this one. After having repeatedly gone on record explaining how Osie is solid town, he compliments KJ's reasoning, which disagrees with his own, after explaining in seventeen different ways why KJ's case on Osie is dead wrong.
But to maintain overall *good feelings*, he tosses KJ a bone at the end, and leaves a bit of room for him to manuever back into killing the guy he persuasively town-read.
Quote from tom »
this pocketing/forced camaraderie is just a reminder that iso is still scum
Completely believe him. I just think here he's bussing his low-effort buddy who he thought was gonna get killed, way, way earlier.
Quote from tom »
Dawning looks like a wagon based on playstyle clash.
Which doesn't necessarily mean he's town...
But I think I'd rather this wagon:
unvote
Vote lngrrr
Leaving himself room to reverse on DBS. Always, always, leaving himself room to manuever.
Then hops onto Lngrr, without explaining why.
3. Next post, Tom votes KJ. Despite having "liked his reasoning" for the case on Osie. Again, no explanation.
Quote from tom »
not indistinguishable. but its not a winning strategy.
Ok, so remember how Tom was complimenting people earlier for being cautious of him as scum, and how unreadable he is? Here's Tom doing the opposite, saying it's not a smart idea to read hims as town, based on tone. Subtext? Tom thinks the people being wary of him are smarter than the people finding reasons to town-read him. What does that tell you about him?
Quote from tom »
the whole process on this from lngrrr just does not come from a solving perspective.
hes giving people a map to getting townread by him, and just trying to control what people do. the choice to betray or ally i think will end up being a really important tool for figuring people out in this game, especially later on when we have multiple nights of results and some flips to work with. and hes just trying to head that off now.
more votes here please
This misinterprets what Lngrr was doing, pretty ham-fistedly. Lngrr was trying to argue that players shouldn't betray, without having a good reason. Tom is trying to say that that opinion doesn't come from a solving perspective. That's just not true. Lngrr's telling you what his game-solving perspective IS, right there. That people shouldn't betray without reason, because it indicates guilty mindset to him. Lngrr may or may not be right, but Lngrr was clearly trying to solve.
Twisting what Lngrr is saying pretty badly here, to justify the vote.
Quote from tom »
Quote from lngrr »
@Killjoy, you sure you arent just voting Osi because you did all the work to ISO him? You think others are scummier, right? If so why are you voting him? Why isolate Orb instead of any other player, like DBS or Whisper?
this post comes from scum 90% of the time
More exaggeration and lies in his dealings with Lngrr here. That post types comes from so many different people regardless of alignment, a bazillion times over the course of a game. Get out of here with that "90%" scum BS.
Quote from tom »
hi you should sign up for a game when I roll scum
This...actually strikes me as a moderate town tell. I can see him posting it as scum, but more likely a thought to have come from town.
Quote from tom »
goddammit dawning i know youre not a doctor
does it stop the factional kill if you block the person performing it?
Quote from tom »
and this just reads like cftwr (Caught For The Wrong Reasons)
happy with my vote.
This bit is more often a townie post, also.
Quote from tom »
can you just clarify if you can stop the freaking nightkill @dawning
Quote from tom »
So wait @dawning
you can stop the nightkill with an ability cost of 0?
Feeling like Tom is scum who is trying to threat asssess, and doesn't like the sound of DBS' role, here. He makes no further comments, after this.
Quote from tom »
i dont really know what to make of dawning.
i dont know what to make of her role
i dont know what to make of her posts, on a micro or macro level
i kinda just want to default back to leaving it for later because if true thats... probably our most powerful town role? or at least up there.
but then theres this feeling im being silly letting scum get away with a roleblocker claim.
Hmm. I wonder if the scum are letting DBS live because they're afraid she's the neutral. They've certainly identified the role itself as pretty high-powered stuff. And I mean, I can't disagree with her probably being neutral.
Quote from tom »
Shinichi I think slipped that he didn't really know how roles work in this game in such a natural way that I don't think it's ever faked. It matches with his claim later on. He's also been townie enough that I don't really need this but I've honestly not been paying attention to the shin v dawning thing thats been going on for awhile. Lock town.
Here's another read I feel like Tom is being honest about, under any alignment. Tom scum = Shin town.
Quote from tom »
this case looks like it comes from my reasoning, and az thinking im scum with him is a little lol. but aside from that, i think its right.
i already rambled on about this a bit but yeah. town iso wouldnt just, have his opinions and not care who listened. and no way jenna is the lynch of choice for someone that plays like iso
I don't see why it's "lol", but I entirely agree that Iso is scum, and I think Tom's increasing steps away from killing off Iso are inconsistent with his decisve reads here, early on. Tom's telling the truth on Iso here. He does think Iso is scum. Tom scum = Iso scum.
Quote from tom »
ass-kicking town iso
wet noodle scum iso
Quote from tom »
Hard to be mad at AZ for shrugging and putting me on his scumteam when the other three names could totally be right...
Only thing that steers me from iso is a want to give him more time if he is town, but I just don't think he is.
See above. Tom committed hard to wanting Iso dead. And then, just walked from it when the Iso pressure dissipated, claiming that it was because Iso improved his performance. Anyone else see a real improvement in his performance? Because I certainly haven't. So why's tom rotating away from this read?
Double wolf here, guys. This is a calculated response to the town's failure to kill Iso when we should have, on Day 1 or Day 2. He realized we'd let him get away with not bussing if he just came up with a weak excuse to change his mind.
Quote from tom »
Iso/AZ is not a dichotomy
Why or why not?
I feel like this came from a desire not to have Iso lynched out of turn, if I wound up dead. And at this point in the game, Tom is arguing that I'm town, and Iso is obvious scum. So why is he concerned about discrediting the dichotomy argument - without providing reasoning for it?
Just noting how badly Tom used to want to kill Iso, before he went all limp-wristed on that for no apparent reason.
Quote from tom »
Quote from az »
But hey, if you want to follow Iso towards lynching someone who actually probably won't even claim in her own defense today, feel free. Because Iso's not being a hypocritical scummy dude at all by trying to push for her lynch today, over tomorrow, when we would have plenty of time to force her to claim and barrage her with mean, nasty questions. In the remote event that Jenna is weird town, this wagon is a tragedy waiting to happen, and it's the kind of loose, reckless, and irresponsible play that should never be allowed. But don't take my word for it, take Iso's, when he complained about me supposedly doing the same thing to him.
i endorse this message
And again.
Quote from tom »
this is bull*****
iver read your iso
its not ******* in there
your reasons for scumreading jenna are all but entirely that she doesnt make sense.
there is not a single look at motivation in there. or interactions.
its just "she doesnt make sense" "her reads are bad" and "shes in catchup mode"
you have no ******* reasoning
And again, angrily. He's legtimiately upset here over how terrible Iso's attempt to kill jenna was.
Quote from tom »
if never seen az be scum
he was SK in mindscrew though, and his "i know how this setup is gonna work" thing gives me mild flashbacks
but if hes powerwolfing my reads are way off
Would be inclined to say this is a more town-likely post.
Quote from tom »
Hi iso.
Still waiting on why jenna is scum and what interactions put her in your *****ty team
Damn. He kept on him pretty hard still, towards the start of D2.
Quote from tom »
i looked around in jpa2 checking out *****ty town iso. hes... not super different from later on in this game.
it comes after hes already been called out for it. but it does look moderately close.
but, like, when he finally did start doing actual solving it was to find who was protecting jenna without actually going into jenna again. like, ive seen his reasons on that. they suck. why just accept your old crappy premise instead of honestly trying to evaluate her?
like, i get why people suspect jenna. i think its more playstyle than anything, but her scumhunting leaves quite a lot to be desired and theres definitely an amount of obscuring her thoughts that may or may not be because of her posting gimmick
but its clearly a shruggy/poe-y type lynch. so being so sure on it to teambuild is... pretty on brand for iso i guess but it rubs me wrong.
Quote from tom »
inclined to let iso/az be tbh
if one is scum they probably cant kill the other
and it seems solvable when we start getting info like scum on the grape wagon
Here's the transition point. I don't like the weasel words in how he describes Iso's meta comparison. Moderately close. Not super different. These are not ringing endorsements.
And he already posted two games, one with iso as wet noodle scum, and one as capable town. So he knows that Iso can absolutely be a wet noodle scum, like we've seen here, such that a wet noodle town iso existing should not be an earth-shattering revelation.
I would note that it's not terribly usual for a scum to make a claim to have meta-analyzed one of his partners, but if you're going to do it, this is exactly what I'd expect it to look like. A lot of weasel words, and a lot of leaving the door open to come back to it later.
Quote from tom »
slight tinfoil that iso/az are town/town
If it's only a slight tinfoil and only occurring now, why go out of your way to post that there's not a dichotomy, back on day one? Without explanation.
Quote from tom »
this is the blatantest scumming, and should clear me AND jenna forever once whisper flips scum
hes shading us, somehow saying my townread of jenna is what makes her scum? then saying we could both be. then getting scared of her claim and shifting to me.
vote: lastwhisper
This...reads like Tom genuinely thinks LW is scum (and scum with Iso, he mentioned in a recent ommitted post.) Which doesn't fit neatly with my world view of LW town, Tom scum. *thinks* I suppose he could just be indignant about a townie playing unfair/illogically in accusing him. That could be the source of the emotion here, from scum perspective.
The other alternative is that tom/jenna/iso are linked, and he's reacting against a bad idea that would also have castastrophic results for the scum team if we followed up on it.
Certainly, if I had to pick three people I have the least trust in based on behavioral tells this game, those three would be at the top of my list.
Tom scum = Iso + Jenna scum more likely.
Quote from tom »
nonclaimers are joeterry, kaba, cythgido, and osi. jenna didnt really ask osi? i guess that makes sense since we know one thing he did last night but i sort of doubt it would stop him from making a kill.
its, like, pretty likely that one of those 4 or phoenix killed dv.
whisper actually looks pretty good here. hes just popcorning for the watcher claim and isnt even worried about claiming. kind of claims as an afterthought after realizing jenna is a watcher.
joeterry looks like hes setting up to try to salvage getting jenna lynched over himself or a buddy that she caught. especially when he throws out "if jenna is town i wont lose any sleep over it" or something like that. distancing himself from what hes currently pushing.
shin/dawn/iso all claim with an explanation of why they couldnt do anything last night. thats the next most likely on the list imo. like theyre trying to keep their claims straight in their heads.
everyone that just said nope probably ok here.
gonna go ahead and rank the most likely killers of DV as phoenix>joeterry>[kaba/megs/osi]>shin>iso>dawning just based on this
list looks more like megs>osi>phoenix>joe>kaba>iso>dawning>shin with my reads included
also noting that az transitioned into pocketing jenna during this whole thing
its sort of like the opposite of joeterry's reaction where he doubled down on jenna and i want to say these two extremes are more likely to come from scum
also az/jenna probably never w/w from it, though im now pretty sure jenna is just town anyway so
will get to reactions to phoenix claim later and start world building in earnest
or ill do the next chunk now instead of sleeping...
starting from jenna claiming the track on phoenix:
really good look for lngrr here. taking that information and immediately questioning terry with it. i think this holds regardless of phoenix/terry alignments.
not sure what kj is on about. hes responding to a tracker claim with musing about watcher? id say he planned out his response and forgot to change it when jenna was FPSing all along (called it btw, though not the scope of it) except if killjoy planned a response it would be... more. cuz killjoy.
az pretty icky here. he's making this new development fit into his worldview, not modifying his worldview with new information.
Snipped - part of a long analysis post on who might have killed DV. The idea that you can figure out who might have killed DV from how people post about it is something that for some reason, feels hard-wired into the scum psyche. Like, a residual guilt thing? "I hope people don't blame me for that guy I killed," type thing. And then they try to channel that blame against someone else.
Meanwhile, townies usually completely ignore that question, b/c how the hell do I know why they killed that dude in the first place?
Tom spends a huge amount of time trying to run this analysis, and ultimately uses it to push an Az-scum narrative, as thread momentum began to shift my direction.
Quote from tom »
Hmm ok
Phoenix claim a bit convenient. I've seen gravedigger roles before, witch hunts or whatever. Open setup. But the (apparent) interaction with tracker is a little lulzy and I'm not really sure that makes sense?
Jenna more or less confirmed now. I guess there could be a scum tracker/watcher, but not sure she would bother with all that if she was just gambiting. She'd want that to be beyond reproach.
Don't think her being scum with phoenix makes any sense. If he is scum fake (or true, I guess) claiming, Joe/kj/iso/axel look like possible buddies for various reasons surrounding claim stuff.
Jenna is "confirmed". Yuck. What an awful read. Jenna is in NO WAY cleared for claiming her track result. Come on, Tom. You're not that stupid or gullible as town.
Quote from tom »
iso chose a scumteam because he was pressured to do so, then isnt taking into account any new evidence really. the thing i (and az) talked about earlier where town iso has this constantly changing worldview based on new evidence and yes he has a tendency to tunnel regardless of alignment once he thinks hes right/can feasibly claim to think hes right but i just... dont think the process is there here.
As late in the process as page 7/27, Tom still pushing Iso-scum.
Quote from tom »
much agreement
RE: Me saying to kill phoenix on like day 5, not day 2, due to the grave-digger claim.
Quote from tom »
eah Fwiw I'm not saying let's not lynch phoenix. I'm saying let's not lynch him today.
But lynching likely scum is still p good and I'm not that against it.
Shrugs
Well. This makes me wonder if something funky isn't going on between jenna/phoenix slots here, and Tom is in on it, like a phoenix/jenna scum/scum gambit. Huh. Just something to note in your brain attics for later.
Quote from tom »
@kj
what is it you want me to answer?
im not really in the business of explaining to you how i caught you, but you asked for my reasons and i gave them again then you say reasons arent proof?
jenna did claim watcher, which you clearly knew and ignored despite allegedly being a watcher
i dont know where "You're saying I don't do reactions" even comes from.
(get lynched)
Scum Tom: This guy didn't behave in reaction to a thing the way he should have! That make him scum! For...reasons!
Town: Yeah! Burn the witch!
Scum Tom:
Quote from tom »
OK.
First off. joeterry, AZ, and dawning are not roles in the same town. They just aren't. That's too many things that can stop a nightkill.
But I believe Joe 100%
It doesn't mean axel was the nightkill. Could still be dawning blocked kaba though him being Mia since before night could be a thing.
Seems as simple as see if axel dies, if no lynch kaba tomorrow.
Think I want to
vote: azrael
And then there was this blatantly awful mod-gaming attempt.
Quote from tom »
I think the most interesting part of a shin case is that he is not willing to push the dichotomy between himself and dawn. Like, that does seem like he... idk isn't willing to trade?
But I think he would probably realize he wouldn't win that thunderdome and I think town shin maybe wouldn't want it either?
Idk if I've got his role, especially the second part with the unblockable or whatever, I'd be pretty interested there.
Maybe it is the same with killjoy where I'm ascribing how I would think it through to others and I'm just weird or something but I still have trouble grokking kj not even reading either time jenna claimed.
Neither him or shin CCed when it came up.
But shin did start scumreading dawning after the claim iirc which is prolly a good look and kj just sheeped jenna's vote and that looks a lot worse to me
Well, that "Shin townslipped so naturally he couldn't possibly be scum" thing really made a permanent impact on his world-view, didn't it.
Quote from tom »
actually **** it
i think az is scum roleblocker
or at least on a team with a roleblocker
this is why hes pushing his dichotomy that isnt a dichotomy. he needs shin to flip before he does/his rb partner does.
theres probably a plan to "confirm" him by stopping a kill they never performed
like, were talking dichotomies. the implications of az/dawning both being able to stop a kill neuters any info we get from it.
az scum roleblocker
dawning neutral survivor type with a roleblock if things arent going well and a kill if things are really dire
shin town thats just being a little weird
imo
az/osi/phoenix/[some no name] makes nothing but sense. thats like, "going with my head" team
kj is a bit harder to fit in with that, but probably works on an iso team. cyth and whisper work really well with iso. cyth less so with kj. phoenix/osi/az scummy but probably not in this grouping.
iso/[kj/osi]/shin/[whisper/cyth]
thats my "going with my gut" team
and then theres the iso/az v/v world i talked about earlier
osi highly likely scum in this world
usually one of shin/dawning
axel would need a hard look
phoenix/cyth/kaba/whisper to round it out?
Still one of the most nonsensical theories I've ever read. I'm supposedly wanting Shin to flip, in order to protect a teammate who is also a RBer...
But the only other claimed RBer is DBS. Who, if Shin flipped town, would immediately come under scrutiny. So if I'm scum with a scum RBer with DBS, this wouldn't save DBS, it'd kill her.
It's like one of those attempts for scum to stretch to come up with some kind of a great, creative idea for how to paint a townie as scum, when they know it's not true, that they fail to exercise base logic and sense to realize how screwed up their own lie is. It's the kind of level of wrong-headed that's hard for town to trip into. Comes from knowing your lying, so that you don't bother to double-check your own logic.
Only makes sense if I'm scum with a third RBer, and Tom never argued that was the case when I called him out on this dreck.
Quote from tom »
Dawning is straight up claiming neutral (at worst lol) and still pushing a role dichotomy. She might believe it but it's terrible.
Ah, ok. So the scum team DID pow-wow and decided they're not killing DBS because she's a neutral who botched her claim.
Quote from tom »
lngrr/axel/jenna/whisper for town circle
and then whichever of [dawning/joe] stopped the kill
osi + [shin if it was joe and probably still joe if it was dawning]
iso still isnt townie (with strong chance to move up a tier or two if/when az flips scum) + [kaba AND dawning if joe stopped the kill] or [shin if dawning stopped the kill]
cyth/phoenix are more likely scum than not at this point
az is just scum + [kaba if dawning blocked the kill obviously]
this is the first ~rainbow wall this game ive felt really good about
Nothing out of place here, really, in terms of being consistent with his stated views. Couple opportunistic lurker lynches at the bottom - and he's still trying to shoe-in Jenna as somehow "confirmed" for how she handled her tracker results. Which still gives me goosebumps, btw.
Quote from tom »
lol osi where the **** are you getting that meta? im way townier as scum.
Interesting. How townie do you think you've been this game up until now? Most everyone else has been town-reading you, prior to last several days. It was all going pretty according to plan. No spider gimmicks, no intentional lurking, no obtuseness - none of those things you usually sprinkle into your town games to throw people's expectations off for when you pull scum. Here, you've just been trying to look like a townie should, no gimmicks. What should we think about that?
Quote from tom »
Kinda think lynch tomorrow should be dawning if axel dies, kaba if he doesn't
Seems pretty simple
Today is more complicated
Fair...do you stay consistent on this? I forget if you're one of the 7.
Quote from tom »
fwiw, i think iso and cythslot are actively aligned from megs' response to my initial push on iso that you sheeped and iso's casual powerwolfing in return
i just find you scummier than either aorn
I think the most common acronym you've used all game, has been aorn. Qualifications, galore.
Quote from tom »
@az
ok.
so the only proof of a bp taker is iso claiming to have lost a bp
you think iso is scum
and not only do you think its real you think its scum-aligned?
Hunh. The emotion there - maybe the BP taker is town-aligned after all.
Quote from tom »
az you seem to be ignoring that kaba came in here and played like caught scum
Quote from tom »
still say we lynch outside of dawning/joe/kaba until more info tomorrow but...
well that info can only clear the first two so meh
he could be scum. ive seen "hooker" as role before but not prostitute afair
Aaaaaand there we go. The move from sensibly telling the town to wait for more info, to nudging them off the cliff because Kaba re-lurked, and became a target of opportunity.
Quote from tom »
Quote from azrael »
There is no reason for either of you to confirm anyone as anything. Apparently, no one can be bothered to wait one single solitary day to see what actually happened before jumping off a bridge. Empiricism going put of fashion up in this piece, apparently.
this is a bit disingenuous when I think the only other person that might have been lynched today was you
Quote from Azrael »
I believe the word you're looking for is dangerous, not disingenuous.
Disingenuous would be suggesting there is something deceitful about someone so exasperated with the town's level of play that he will tell them the truth even at the risk of his own life. That seems to fit the bill for disingenuous rather nicely, in fact.
I don't even know what to think about the fact Az just spent X numbers of hours doing a big thing on Tom after complaining he had no time and/or that no one was doing proper analysis of Kaba, when Kaba is the one near lynch and it would have taken him approximately 1/10 the amount of time to do a read on Kaba instead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Kaba's on the reread list as well axel, probably bwfor end of say, but I'm more concerned with casing one of the two guys most likely to be scum, and one of the toughest reads around, than a guy who's a lurker coin flip who we should be waiting until tomorrow to decide, anyways.
And it will be a lot easier to squeeze in kaba in a half hour interval, than it would have been to find a two hour interval to do tom enduring my work week. If my evening gets busy, I wanted tom complete, because I won't have another open afternoon chils naptime period until next weekend..
so you found a handful of towntells, a bunch of "the kind of person tom is", and assigned some scum motivations to things
and im scum with iso, jenna, last, and phoenix with town kaba/shin/osi/lngrr
which is, like, a decent amount of the people i feel like id have to be scum with here
responding to some stuff:
"It doesn't match well with a townie rationale, however. If someone is that major of a wagon, a townie who's smart and active is generally going to have some kind of opinion to share about it, to try to influence the town one way or another. " railing about things i dont believe in isnt really my idea of a townie rationale.
"Ok, so remember how Tom was complimenting people earlier for being cautious of him as scum, and how unreadable he is? Here's Tom doing the opposite, saying it's not a smart idea to read hims as town, based on tone. Subtext? Tom thinks the people being wary of him are smarter than the people finding reasons to town-read him. What does that tell you about him?" it should tell you i know im hard to read and people that townread me too easily are suspect or naive
and dont think saying essentially "im not flawless but im good" counts as saying the opposite
"And I mean, I can't disagree with her probably being neutral. " im almost sure of that at this point. super unlikely to be actually town. small chance at scum with kaba
"[iso things]" so its not that iso is doing ass kicking iso things now. ive accepted hes a wet noodle this game regardless of his alignment. but his reads have evolved in a way that i think is at least moderately likely to be the vestiges of town iso thinking things through
yes, thats still not a "ringing endorsement" he could totally still be scum. but there is some evidence hes "trying" to solve
dont feel very good about it tbh
aside: did you ever comment on my iso+megs theory
"Only makes sense if I'm scum with a third RBer, and Tom never argued that was the case when I called him out on this dreck." no i called YOU the third RBer
in the post
"I think the most common acronym you've used all game, has been aorn. Qualifications, galore. " dont think this is actually relevant to anything, but id love to see an analysis of acronym use town v scum. i remember someone doing a smiley-based meta comparison on matowar in... maybe goldeneye that i just chuckled at again.
Tom, the description of who I think is town/scum in your first para is about 3-4 names off, and I'm pretty surprised to see you argue I'm the games' third roleblocker, for basically no apparent reason.
Cyth/Iso is a possible world, but I'm still waiting for Cyth to become more readable. I don't recall seeing any megs/Iso connections; most of the connections I saw were you, Jenna, and Iso.
EVERYTHING CAN BE SEEN AS A WIFOM... THE POINT IS YOU CHOOSE THE ONE MOST LOGICLY TO YOU... OR FINDS WAYS TO PROVE ONE IS MORE PROBABLE... YOU DONT SIT IN LIMBO TWIDDLING YOUR THUMBS
1. You're mis-using the term WIFOM.
2. Waiting in limbo is exactly what you do, if what you need is for the end of today to provide clarity on what happened.
-------------
Stealing a break as being attacked by my children. Just finished Tom PBPA, posting without summary for now. Please read thoroughly.
@terry can you just hammer already, listening to Azreal is just making me see him as scum with kaba more and more.
Az, since when do we ignore Night actions that strongly suggest that somebody is scum? I mean, really. Why are we pussyfooting around this? There is no reason not to lynch Kaba toDay - he clearly has no interest in returning to the game. Let’s get our first scum lynch instead of just “oh I think this person might be scum so let me disregard reality for a moment.”
What night actions? The ones that "strongly" indicate that Terry blocked the kill, or the ones that "strongly" indicate that Kaba is scum?
We have literally no reason to decide that any of these narratives is "stronger" than the other. So why are you pushing one of them over the other, other than the one let's you score yet another cheap mislynch?
Unless your scum with kaba you should be waiting for his flip to decide how the actions went. Again where did the kill go if your suggesting none of what DBS said or Terry said had any effect on it?
Az, since when do we ignore Night actions that strongly suggest that somebody is scum? I mean, really. Why are we pussyfooting around this? There is no reason not to lynch Kaba toDay - he clearly has no interest in returning to the game. Let’s get our first scum lynch instead of just “oh I think this person might be scum so let me disregard reality for a moment.”
I agree with ISO this phase has 3 days out of the 14 idk why we are waiting when this will pretty much solve terry's alignment and kill a scum aligned player.
Wake up, ladies and gentlemen. We're here to play mafia, not russian roulette. A game of deduction! Wits! Intelligence! Logic! Analysis!
So let's analyze!
I understand where you're coming from. spared scum a few phases trying to case em before. also seen how half-assed cases on someone leads to a less-than-satisfying victory...sometimes they wouldn't even be happy about losing.
1. Terry is townfirming someone, and he's not cop. like I mentioned before, even if I were cop and I get this or that result - I would make sure there's nothing messy before I even trust it. Terry ain't even a cop, is already townfirming someone cuz he successfully activated his ability, and scumreads someone who distrusts their abilities. that isn't the caution town would have - I can excuse it if it were newb behavior, but he's even more experienced than I am.
2. Kaba said he never submitted an action... ok. Killjoy claimed JoAT watcher and Jenna claimed tracker... why did he not look into those claims? I find it hard to think he would let that many claims slide so easily, when his role was similar. Killjoy even got lynched for "not paying attention", shouldn't that apply to Kaba as well? when asked to claim, he claimed a similar role as Jenna/Killjoy, and while it initially came off workable it's still bad considering we had 2 claimed investigatives already.
Shinichi says we only have Iso's word to go for having a BP Taker around, but we also have Last's role for further proof. if we add 'that weird claim' and 'this proof of no BP theft', Kaba fits. if he claimed BP Taker and town, then I might be having a dilemma.
3. as for Shinichi.. meta says he's scum, but he claims otherwise. we're just going to let a roleblocker roam freely and mess with our results? town made their choice. at least I'm a legit roleblocker with limitations, not like him who gets to use it every Night~
4. in terms of behavior, I daresay some flaws are due to in-game exhaustion. and logically speaking, scum would be the shiniest in terms of behavior since they're winning. I think Iso is town, with the way he was hounded for like...a phase or 2. Tom/LnG/Cyth are all in that vague pile I can't and prefer not to figure out like, please be town so I won't have to deal with you.
I think this is analysis enough. mostly hinged on roles I know, but that's the loophole they're trying to use to clear themselves.
if we're going to go with a more agreeable target, I think we should lynch Shinichi. he's been antitown all game anyways, with his only defense as being a decent person.
1.Literally doesnt matter, because if what tom is saying is true then axel will die at the end of this phase. If we lynch him before that an axel still dies whats the point?
2.I dont believe kaba never submitted an action, but if I do it was because hes the BP taker. I do believe we only have iso word, but I agree as well that last role does suggest the opposite is in play. Again thought if one exists as scum they should be using that ability ever phase unless its someone that has low BP. Honestly i wish i knew everyones bp at this point in the game.
3.I didnt roleblock anyone, so how am i messing with results.
When did I ever use being a decent person as a reason that I am town, im saying that is reason as to why i choose to ally twice in a row is all and i figured you and my brother should atleast see something out of that.
Tbh I feel like the only way to not end up with 20 questions tmr, is to Lynch Kaba today...
But it's punting, LW. The point of a lynch isn't to clear up question marks and make things simpler, it's to kill scum. If you kill everyone in the town with a question mark over their head, there'd be no one left. We're supposed to answer those questions for ourselves - not leave the questions hanging in the air, blow somebody away, and say "Oh, I guess he was townie after all! Mystery solved!"
1. Terry is townfirming someone, and he's not cop. like I mentioned before, even if I were cop and I get this or that result - I would make sure there's nothing messy before I even trust it. Terry ain't even a cop, is already townfirming someone cuz he successfully activated his ability, and scumreads someone who distrusts their abilities. that isn't the caution town would have - I can excuse it if it were newb behavior, but he's even more experienced than I am.
The way he's been playing this game, is like an extreme J on Myers Briggs. Undue certainty on a TON of issues where certainty isn't warranted. My read is that that's just his personality, not scum-influenced.
Quote from DBS »
2. Kaba said he never submitted an action... ok. Killjoy claimed JoAT watcher and Jenna claimed tracker... why did he not look into those claims? I find it hard to think he would let that many claims slide so easily, when his role was similar. Killjoy even got lynched for "not paying attention", shouldn't that apply to Kaba as well?
And how did that approach work out for us, on KJ?
That was a scum trap, DBS. Pick on a townie for misplaying, and get the town to punish them for the misplay.
Whenever I can scrape up the time, I'm happy to do so, as you noted. But there should be more than just a couple people doing it. This is a team game.
I feel like you are cleverly doing nothing in an attempt to draw votes to yourself instead of Kabazame. Every recent post has felt disconnected from what is going on, and when I see you post, you post nothing at all related to what I want to see from you. Every post is standoffish and neutral when I desperately want to see you to do something, anything meaningful now.
Honestly i just want to lynch azreal next at this point, cause idk how hes ok basically trying to discredit and push us away from a lynch that has a 99% chance of being scum since its the option that has been brought forth suggesting what happened to the night kill.
There are too many questions marks in the town to just spray bullets indiscriminately at them. You have to be judicious. Choose your shots, not lurch drunkenly from one shiny object to the next without researching.
Our shiny object is kaba while our shots are pointed at tveryone else so we can figure out the rest of the game whats wrong with that?
I am not gonna lie but that ISO on tom is very convincing, and ironically he talks about tom theory about wanting to lynch me to confirm dbs. That reason is why i was reluctant to claim because if i flip town which I will, automically that make DBS the bad guy but what if shes not the bad guy? She would be condemned to death, now its different if DBS is pushing for my lynch but at the same time im not sure if shes doing that because shes town or because shes scum if shes scum then her push on me will lead to her own death,
@Az
-I agree that tom leaves alot of back doors
-It was weird how he town firmed jenna
-His theory involving lynch me is flwed
-That post where tom tells us to avoid the dbs/joe/kaba team is something I must have glossed over because that alone is like wtf this dude must be scum or smoking some weird stuff.
-Pretty sure BP taker is scum aligned, cause if that situation isnt true and said role exists then im almost certain lastwhisper is scum. I can't see a world where if both roles exist that they're on the same team.
-I never noticed but tom really doesnt want to focus dbs only me now, and it makes me wonder if he has something to do if hes scum with the fact that dbs wasnt a NK option yet
Honestly I'm pretty convinced of this, if az were to flip town tom would immediatly be scum in my eyes. The question is next phase idk if i want to vote az or tom now.
Tbh I feel like the only way to not end up with 20 questions tmr, is to Lynch Kaba today...
I wonder why you didn't think this the previous phase, when Shinichi's flip will answer your 20 questions about me, and lynched Killjoy who had 0 answers to any question - moreso when he claimed. outdated excuse. not like we should let Kaba off though lol, but can you try to make a more up-to-date reason for us to lynch on? this should've been used the last phase...
I am not doubting that shinichi's lynch would answer 20 questions... but im not trying to lynch on information alone... the difference between kaba and shinichi is that I believe kaba in this case has a 90% chance of flipping scum... and I was wrong about killjoy, get over it... I'm not always right, and we've both seen our fair share of mislynches... but if your gunna be that person who comes out on the next day and says, "I told you so, " then idk what to say... I refuse to be a part of this Shin vs Dawn war... b/c I think you are both town...
Kaba has 90% chance of flipping scum? what exactly adds up to the percentages? I actually have the reasons to back up my percentages, or I don't use it. you're wrong about Killjoy, Iso is presumably wrong about Jenna, isn't it my turn to be proven wrong now?
you're just being demanding. disagree or brush off cases someone makes simply cuz it doesn't align with your personal feelings. when someone asks for a case from you, you just say you're not good at making cases. why did you join the game in the first place? can't you at least learn to case someone? if you don't want to case someone, don't stop someone who is trying their best to convince you or others with their case. this kind of play is very dispiriting and annoying.
winning isn't everything. so long as you can have a good game and outwit someone, it's good enough. not talk bricks about YOUR POINT OR FEELINGS - you should know since I actually conceded the win to scum before. if a game ends poorly, nobody will be happy with the results. now can you please get off your demanding behavior, and actually try to case someone? (not saying you're doing this on purpose, but that's an obstacle in communication.)
why do you think Shin is town? case it for me. I've already cased him for everyone to read, repeatedly.
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Be grateful, always."
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2. Well its on the record you said you were trying to block the NK.
3.How can you sit here in point 3 and say you assume you blocked the kill and question me why I make that exact same assumption in point 1? The issue I take is with your reasoning for picking kaba to block. Is based on association to scum shin, but you don't know that shin is scum.
4. It's completely bonkers that you don't see how me blocking the kill townfirms axel and why you have an issue with me doing so.
5. Don't you see the critical aspect to this? I'm not focused on town clearing myself. When I Came Out With My info, I Was Only Saying To Town Clear axel. So to answer your question bluntly, I think you should think I'm town because I'm not focused on myself, I'm focused on solving the game around me by clearing other people that I can trust. I think it's a much more common scenerio where scum say they did something just to get townfirm themselves not that common for scum to say something to townfirm another player because confirmed town are really bad for them.
Because hes someone that alot of people suspect, i was specifically targeted people you read just those that the majority read. No no it wont because as u can see town has lost quite alot and scum have lost nothing so what does lynching another town do?
2.Roleblocking almost always stops the night kill atleast I would think it does, since that is considered a night ability.
3.Thats only if you believe ISO tho, if no one else came forth that says alot. If your roleblocking did stop the theivery then thats even more a reason to lynch kaba.
4.Again i feel like alot of people town read axel before this and the fact that terry knows axel will die means that mafia had to have targeted axel unless you think mafia attacked there own.
Cant really answer 1
Why?
Also im sick of waiting for kaba to respond to this game
Vote:Kabazame
I dont beleive its a hammer since terry unvoted, so hes prob gonna have to hammer again lmfao
I believe the word you're looking for is dangerous, not disingenuous.
Disingenuous would be suggesting there is something deceitful about someone so exasperated with the town's level of play that he will tell them the truth even at the risk of his own life. That seems to fit the bill for disingenuous rather nicely, in fact.
Terry, there is my suggestion for the lynch.
I dont care much for who you want to lynch, i also stated Who i am willing to vote terry aint on that list.
I unvoted because I really want to give Axel the full phase to work in case he dies.
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModKabazame (7): LnGrrrR, osieorb18, Lastwhisper, Iso, Jenna Tolaria, dawningbluesky, Shinichi
Azrael (1): tomsloger
tomsloger (1): Azrael
Not Voting (5): Kabazame, Axelrod, Cythare, Phoenix-Fire, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
With 14 alive, it’s 8 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, December 13th at 11.59 pm EST.
osieorb18 is V/LA until Monday
Terry do u believe u stopped a night kill or not?
We have two claimed alternatives for the NK. One of them will be ruled out at end of day. Why are we doing this now?
Lynch on behavior. We have four days. Even if that means you start running up the doctor again, can we try to put some thought and effort into this? Because if not, we're sunk.
I don't see how anything other than fatigue and lack of effort can explain why we're trying to rush to solve this now, instead of waiting to see what happens as a result of these two claimed abilities. If Axelrod dies at end of day, what's the case against Kaba for tomorrow? That people misinterpreted his claim at first, or think it's a little odd? That he's a lurker, like a quarter of the playerbase?
So let's analyze!
Lynch on behavior. We have four days. Even if that means you start running up the doctor again, can we try to put some thought and effort into this? Because if not, we're sunk.
I don't see how anything other than fatigue and lack of effort can explain why we're trying to rush to solve this now, instead of waiting to see what happens as a result of these two claimed abilities. If Axelrod dies at end of day, what's the case against Kaba for tomorrow? That people misinterpreted his claim at first, or think it's a little odd? That he's a lurker, like a quarter of the playerbase?
You act like Kaba has been epitamy of the perfect town... he only comes in, in short burst, follows the best trains then dips out again... and why does all ur points turn into, "maybe we should just push me again," and Idk how this is even rushed... like are you defending Kaba? I dont understand what your trying to accomplish with this kind of talk... once ounce of your brain still sees any bit of town in anything that Kaba has done so far? and how is a quarter of this game lurking? I am not waiting tomorrow to see if Axel dies... we talked about that stupid Occams Razer bs before... so why now are we straying away from it...
tbh I think tomorrow will just lead to more questions then answers... cause lets say Axel does die... can we prove that Terry has delay death rather just just poison? no... and if its poison then Kaba can still be scum...
1. Axel dies (by delay or poison we cant deduce this)
2. Axel dies (by mafia nk, which could easily happen, which we also cant deduce) again does this prove terry is scum, no... because mafia can be creating wifom to make us think this...
3. Axel doesnt die... then Kaba was most likely the killer... so why not remove this from the equation today?
4. Axel dies... Terry is actually the poisoner(cant prove yet), and now going into the next day we have 2 deaths, and if we have no scum lynch at this point it would be bad
Like do you even have other suggestions then just committing suicide?
Azreal
either I feel like lynching Kaba today would be better... cause anyone you wanna lynch I probably dont...
Kama may or may not be scum. But no one has put in the case work to figure it out. Do I like his reaction under pressure? Not particularly. But you yourself highlighted that even after tomorrow, we still have a ton of unanswered questions.
Your answer to that is to smash the mystery with gigantic hammer. To "solve" the mystery by putting a bullet in his brain.
My suggestion is that we don't investigate people with bullets. That we analyze him before we do something irrevocable, such as possibly waste our d3 lynch on a guy who's already declared he's having some kind of computer issues, when Iso and Tom have practically claimed scum for all to see, behaviorally.
My suggestion is that we use our brains, LW. Not that you lynch me, not that you do or don't lynch kaba, but that whatever we do, we do it with a decent PBPA and some actual thought to back it up.
Explain to where you see that Tom and Iso claimed scum behaviorally? Tbh I'm more inclinded then I ever was this game to believe Tom is scum... But I can't make a case on him... If you can, then go for it...
1. Terry is townfirming someone, and he's not cop. like I mentioned before, even if I were cop and I get this or that result - I would make sure there's nothing messy before I even trust it. Terry ain't even a cop, is already townfirming someone cuz he successfully activated his ability, and scumreads someone who distrusts their abilities. that isn't the caution town would have - I can excuse it if it were newb behavior, but he's even more experienced than I am.
2. Kaba said he never submitted an action... ok. Killjoy claimed JoAT watcher and Jenna claimed tracker... why did he not look into those claims? I find it hard to think he would let that many claims slide so easily, when his role was similar. Killjoy even got lynched for "not paying attention", shouldn't that apply to Kaba as well? when asked to claim, he claimed a similar role as Jenna/Killjoy, and while it initially came off workable it's still bad considering we had 2 claimed investigatives already.
Shinichi says we only have Iso's word to go for having a BP Taker around, but we also have Last's role for further proof. if we add 'that weird claim' and 'this proof of no BP theft', Kaba fits. if he claimed BP Taker and town, then I might be having a dilemma.
3. as for Shinichi.. meta says he's scum, but he claims otherwise. we're just going to let a roleblocker roam freely and mess with our results? town made their choice. at least I'm a legit roleblocker with limitations, not like him who gets to use it every Night~
4. in terms of behavior, I daresay some flaws are due to in-game exhaustion. and logically speaking, scum would be the shiniest in terms of behavior since they're winning. I think Iso is town, with the way he was hounded for like...a phase or 2. Tom/LnG/Cyth are all in that vague pile I can't and prefer not to figure out
like, please be town so I won't have to deal with you.I think this is analysis enough. mostly hinged on roles I know, but that's the loophole they're trying to use to clear themselves.
if we're going to go with a more agreeable target, I think we should lynch Shinichi. he's been antitown all game anyways, with his only defense as being a decent person.
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
I re-read Kaba's stuff and came away with not much. He's just kind of been there this game. Your case on Iso is primarily that he hasn't been playing like Town-Iso. While that may be true, it's hardly slam-dunk material. Your case on Tom is also very meta. Tom is crafty and hard to catch. True. I'm super wary of him, but at the same time, he's not said much of anything that raised a Red Flag for me, and many things that made complete sense, so it feels nuts to pick him over someone playing objectively worse.
And, Terry, I don't know what you expect me to say before dying. If you are expecting me to do some kind of huge analysis of everyone remaining, you are likely to be disappointed. The game is too big and I'm simply not taking the amount of time that would be required. And I could do it and be totally wrong anyway (see Killjoy) which makes it definitely not feel like it's worth the effort. You will get my spot analysis of situations, and probably not much more.
But it's punting, LW. The point of a lynch isn't to clear up question marks and make things simpler, it's to kill scum. If you kill everyone in the town with a question mark over their head, there'd be no one left. We're supposed to answer those questions for ourselves - not leave the questions hanging in the air, blow somebody away, and say "Oh, I guess he was townie after all! Mystery solved!"
The way he's been playing this game, is like an extreme J on Myers Briggs. Undue certainty on a TON of issues where certainty isn't warranted. My read is that that's just his personality, not scum-influenced.
And how did that approach work out for us, on KJ?
That was a scum trap, DBS. Pick on a townie for misplaying, and get the town to punish them for the misplay.
Whenever I can scrape up the time, I'm happy to do so, as you noted. But there should be more than just a couple people doing it. This is a team game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*cocks head*
Do you realize, that's how I think most players feel about the majority of your posting history? It's like your scum buddies have been arguing that you need to do a better job of avoiding just that, and you canned it, regurgitated as an attack back at me.
What night actions? The ones that "strongly" indicate that Terry blocked the kill, or the ones that "strongly" indicate that Kaba is scum?
We have literally no reason to decide that any of these narratives is "stronger" than the other. So why are you pushing one of them over the other, other than the one let's you score yet another cheap mislynch?
1. You're mis-using the term WIFOM.
2. Waiting in limbo is exactly what you do, if what you need is for the end of today to provide clarity on what happened.
-------------
Stealing a break as being attacked by my children. Just finished Tom PBPA, posting without summary for now. Please read thoroughly.
1. There are a number of things on pg. 1 of Tom's posting history during RVS stage that are pretty minor. I don't think they're worth going into detail on. Subtle things, like complimenting people for being suspicious of or wary of Tom's ability as scum.
Decently truthy post from Tom. Whatever alignment Tom is, I think Tom believes this to be true about Osie, and that he thought about it before posting.
I'd give this post about a "C" grade on the scale of convincing, as to being A) True about DV, and B) Convincing as something that Tom actually thinks is true.
This very short post is a good example of what Tom's mentality in playing the game. He wants to have fun, and he likes being likable. He's smart enough and hard-working enough to put in effort, but he also enjoys using his charisma to coax reactions out of people, and cozy up to them. That's a skill that can be used either for good or evil, but it's important to recognize that that's the kind of person Tom is.
Why ask that first question? Obviously, logically, the person he's conversing with can't know the answer to that question. So from a logical standpoint, this proves nothing. And Tom knows that.
The reason to post it, is because he's trying to plant that idea in his subject's mind. He's trying to persuade him, that he's town, and that his meta rationale is off-target.
Now, occasionally a manipulative or defensive townie might do that, but it's more often something you see from scum. Most townies are always bearing in mind that the other townies can't know who they are.
Also, note the complete absence of any OMGUS tendencies here. That could be either because town Tom doesn't have any suspicions of Terry, or it could be because he's trying to manage Terry. I don't see much of anything that leads me one way or another on that question here, though.
Tom definitely still town-reading Osie hard. Ok.
2. Around page 25, there's a 5 man wagon on LW. Tom doesn't jump on it, or comment on it at all, that I can see. He only engaged on some peripheral rationales with people, as quoted above.
This is a wonderfully effective, classic playstyle for intelligent scum. It makes it obvious that they are aware of the wagon, and participating. But it leaves them entirely flexible to either jump on and bury someone, or to stay off, and avoid making an enemy or getting their credibility dinged up.
It doesn't match well with a townie rationale, however. If someone is that major of a wagon, a townie who's smart and active is generally going to have some kind of opinion to share about it, to try to influence the town one way or another.
This is a repeated pattern we'll see in Tom's play over later days. I didn't recall seeing it this early in the game before, but after having seen it a couple days in a row, I'm not shocked to see it this early on in D1.
This post is snipped slightly due to multi-quotes - hate this one. After having repeatedly gone on record explaining how Osie is solid town, he compliments KJ's reasoning, which disagrees with his own, after explaining in seventeen different ways why KJ's case on Osie is dead wrong.
But to maintain overall *good feelings*, he tosses KJ a bone at the end, and leaves a bit of room for him to manuever back into killing the guy he persuasively town-read.
Completely believe him. I just think here he's bussing his low-effort buddy who he thought was gonna get killed, way, way earlier.
Leaving himself room to reverse on DBS. Always, always, leaving himself room to manuever.
Then hops onto Lngrr, without explaining why.
3. Next post, Tom votes KJ. Despite having "liked his reasoning" for the case on Osie. Again, no explanation.
Ok, so remember how Tom was complimenting people earlier for being cautious of him as scum, and how unreadable he is? Here's Tom doing the opposite, saying it's not a smart idea to read hims as town, based on tone. Subtext? Tom thinks the people being wary of him are smarter than the people finding reasons to town-read him. What does that tell you about him?
This misinterprets what Lngrr was doing, pretty ham-fistedly. Lngrr was trying to argue that players shouldn't betray, without having a good reason. Tom is trying to say that that opinion doesn't come from a solving perspective. That's just not true. Lngrr's telling you what his game-solving perspective IS, right there. That people shouldn't betray without reason, because it indicates guilty mindset to him. Lngrr may or may not be right, but Lngrr was clearly trying to solve.
Twisting what Lngrr is saying pretty badly here, to justify the vote.
More exaggeration and lies in his dealings with Lngrr here. That post types comes from so many different people regardless of alignment, a bazillion times over the course of a game. Get out of here with that "90%" scum BS.
This...actually strikes me as a moderate town tell. I can see him posting it as scum, but more likely a thought to have come from town.
This bit is more often a townie post, also.
Feeling like Tom is scum who is trying to threat asssess, and doesn't like the sound of DBS' role, here. He makes no further comments, after this.
Hmm. I wonder if the scum are letting DBS live because they're afraid she's the neutral. They've certainly identified the role itself as pretty high-powered stuff. And I mean, I can't disagree with her probably being neutral.
Here's another read I feel like Tom is being honest about, under any alignment. Tom scum = Shin town.
I don't see why it's "lol", but I entirely agree that Iso is scum, and I think Tom's increasing steps away from killing off Iso are inconsistent with his decisve reads here, early on. Tom's telling the truth on Iso here. He does think Iso is scum. Tom scum = Iso scum.
See above. Tom committed hard to wanting Iso dead. And then, just walked from it when the Iso pressure dissipated, claiming that it was because Iso improved his performance. Anyone else see a real improvement in his performance? Because I certainly haven't. So why's tom rotating away from this read?
Double wolf here, guys. This is a calculated response to the town's failure to kill Iso when we should have, on Day 1 or Day 2. He realized we'd let him get away with not bussing if he just came up with a weak excuse to change his mind.
Why or why not?
I feel like this came from a desire not to have Iso lynched out of turn, if I wound up dead. And at this point in the game, Tom is arguing that I'm town, and Iso is obvious scum. So why is he concerned about discrediting the dichotomy argument - without providing reasoning for it?
Just noting how badly Tom used to want to kill Iso, before he went all limp-wristed on that for no apparent reason.
And again.
And again, angrily. He's legtimiately upset here over how terrible Iso's attempt to kill jenna was.
Would be inclined to say this is a more town-likely post.
Damn. He kept on him pretty hard still, towards the start of D2.
Here's the transition point. I don't like the weasel words in how he describes Iso's meta comparison. Moderately close. Not super different. These are not ringing endorsements.
And he already posted two games, one with iso as wet noodle scum, and one as capable town. So he knows that Iso can absolutely be a wet noodle scum, like we've seen here, such that a wet noodle town iso existing should not be an earth-shattering revelation.
I would note that it's not terribly usual for a scum to make a claim to have meta-analyzed one of his partners, but if you're going to do it, this is exactly what I'd expect it to look like. A lot of weasel words, and a lot of leaving the door open to come back to it later.
If it's only a slight tinfoil and only occurring now, why go out of your way to post that there's not a dichotomy, back on day one? Without explanation.
This...reads like Tom genuinely thinks LW is scum (and scum with Iso, he mentioned in a recent ommitted post.) Which doesn't fit neatly with my world view of LW town, Tom scum. *thinks* I suppose he could just be indignant about a townie playing unfair/illogically in accusing him. That could be the source of the emotion here, from scum perspective.
The other alternative is that tom/jenna/iso are linked, and he's reacting against a bad idea that would also have castastrophic results for the scum team if we followed up on it.
Certainly, if I had to pick three people I have the least trust in based on behavioral tells this game, those three would be at the top of my list.
Tom scum = Iso + Jenna scum more likely.
Snipped - part of a long analysis post on who might have killed DV. The idea that you can figure out who might have killed DV from how people post about it is something that for some reason, feels hard-wired into the scum psyche. Like, a residual guilt thing? "I hope people don't blame me for that guy I killed," type thing. And then they try to channel that blame against someone else.
Meanwhile, townies usually completely ignore that question, b/c how the hell do I know why they killed that dude in the first place?
Tom spends a huge amount of time trying to run this analysis, and ultimately uses it to push an Az-scum narrative, as thread momentum began to shift my direction.
Jenna is "confirmed". Yuck. What an awful read. Jenna is in NO WAY cleared for claiming her track result. Come on, Tom. You're not that stupid or gullible as town.
As late in the process as page 7/27, Tom still pushing Iso-scum.
RE: Me saying to kill phoenix on like day 5, not day 2, due to the grave-digger claim.
Well. This makes me wonder if something funky isn't going on between jenna/phoenix slots here, and Tom is in on it, like a phoenix/jenna scum/scum gambit. Huh. Just something to note in your brain attics for later.
Scum Tom: This guy didn't behave in reaction to a thing the way he should have! That make him scum! For...reasons!
Town: Yeah! Burn the witch!
Scum Tom:
And then there was this blatantly awful mod-gaming attempt.
Well, that "Shin townslipped so naturally he couldn't possibly be scum" thing really made a permanent impact on his world-view, didn't it.
Still one of the most nonsensical theories I've ever read. I'm supposedly wanting Shin to flip, in order to protect a teammate who is also a RBer...
But the only other claimed RBer is DBS. Who, if Shin flipped town, would immediately come under scrutiny. So if I'm scum with a scum RBer with DBS, this wouldn't save DBS, it'd kill her.
It's like one of those attempts for scum to stretch to come up with some kind of a great, creative idea for how to paint a townie as scum, when they know it's not true, that they fail to exercise base logic and sense to realize how screwed up their own lie is. It's the kind of level of wrong-headed that's hard for town to trip into. Comes from knowing your lying, so that you don't bother to double-check your own logic.
Only makes sense if I'm scum with a third RBer, and Tom never argued that was the case when I called him out on this dreck.
Ah, ok. So the scum team DID pow-wow and decided they're not killing DBS because she's a neutral who botched her claim.
Nothing out of place here, really, in terms of being consistent with his stated views. Couple opportunistic lurker lynches at the bottom - and he's still trying to shoe-in Jenna as somehow "confirmed" for how she handled her tracker results. Which still gives me goosebumps, btw.
Interesting. How townie do you think you've been this game up until now? Most everyone else has been town-reading you, prior to last several days. It was all going pretty according to plan. No spider gimmicks, no intentional lurking, no obtuseness - none of those things you usually sprinkle into your town games to throw people's expectations off for when you pull scum. Here, you've just been trying to look like a townie should, no gimmicks. What should we think about that?
Fair...do you stay consistent on this? I forget if you're one of the 7.
I think the most common acronym you've used all game, has been aorn. Qualifications, galore.
Hunh. The emotion there - maybe the BP taker is town-aligned after all.
Aaaaaand there we go. The move from sensibly telling the town to wait for more info, to nudging them off the cliff because Kaba re-lurked, and became a target of opportunity.
Original response holds true.
Will return with summary when time permits.
And it will be a lot easier to squeeze in kaba in a half hour interval, than it would have been to find a two hour interval to do tom enduring my work week. If my evening gets busy, I wanted tom complete, because I won't have another open afternoon chils naptime period until next weekend..
might even convince people
GJGE
Anyways, read the case. Devil is in the details on this one.
Thanks Tom, do what I can.
and im scum with iso, jenna, last, and phoenix with town kaba/shin/osi/lngrr
which is, like, a decent amount of the people i feel like id have to be scum with here
responding to some stuff:
"It doesn't match well with a townie rationale, however. If someone is that major of a wagon, a townie who's smart and active is generally going to have some kind of opinion to share about it, to try to influence the town one way or another. "
railing about things i dont believe in isnt really my idea of a townie rationale.
"Ok, so remember how Tom was complimenting people earlier for being cautious of him as scum, and how unreadable he is? Here's Tom doing the opposite, saying it's not a smart idea to read hims as town, based on tone. Subtext? Tom thinks the people being wary of him are smarter than the people finding reasons to town-read him. What does that tell you about him?"
it should tell you i know im hard to read and people that townread me too easily are suspect or naive
and dont think saying essentially "im not flawless but im good" counts as saying the opposite
"And I mean, I can't disagree with her probably being neutral. "
im almost sure of that at this point. super unlikely to be actually town. small chance at scum with kaba
"[iso things]"
so its not that iso is doing ass kicking iso things now. ive accepted hes a wet noodle this game regardless of his alignment. but his reads have evolved in a way that i think is at least moderately likely to be the vestiges of town iso thinking things through
yes, thats still not a "ringing endorsement" he could totally still be scum. but there is some evidence hes "trying" to solve
dont feel very good about it tbh
"Only makes sense if I'm scum with a third RBer, and Tom never argued that was the case when I called him out on this dreck."
no i called YOU the third RBer
in the post
"I think the most common acronym you've used all game, has been aorn. Qualifications, galore. "
dont think this is actually relevant to anything, but id love to see an analysis of acronym use town v scum. i remember someone doing a smiley-based meta comparison on matowar in... maybe goldeneye that i just chuckled at again.
Cyth/Iso is a possible world, but I'm still waiting for Cyth to become more readable. I don't recall seeing any megs/Iso connections; most of the connections I saw were you, Jenna, and Iso.
and sure you can be scum with a third roleblocker instead that makes sense too
megs/iso
2054-2066
@terry can you just hammer already, listening to Azreal is just making me see him as scum with kaba more and more.
Unless your scum with kaba you should be waiting for his flip to decide how the actions went. Again where did the kill go if your suggesting none of what DBS said or Terry said had any effect on it?
I agree with ISO this phase has 3 days out of the 14 idk why we are waiting when this will pretty much solve terry's alignment and kill a scum aligned player.
1.Literally doesnt matter, because if what tom is saying is true then axel will die at the end of this phase. If we lynch him before that an axel still dies whats the point?
2.I dont believe kaba never submitted an action, but if I do it was because hes the BP taker. I do believe we only have iso word, but I agree as well that last role does suggest the opposite is in play. Again thought if one exists as scum they should be using that ability ever phase unless its someone that has low BP. Honestly i wish i knew everyones bp at this point in the game.
3.I didnt roleblock anyone, so how am i messing with results.
When did I ever use being a decent person as a reason that I am town, im saying that is reason as to why i choose to ally twice in a row is all and i figured you and my brother should atleast see something out of that.
Honestly i just want to lynch azreal next at this point, cause idk how hes ok basically trying to discredit and push us away from a lynch that has a 99% chance of being scum since its the option that has been brought forth suggesting what happened to the night kill.
Our shiny object is kaba while our shots are pointed at tveryone else so we can figure out the rest of the game whats wrong with that?
@Az
-I agree that tom leaves alot of back doors
-It was weird how he town firmed jenna
-His theory involving lynch me is flwed
-That post where tom tells us to avoid the dbs/joe/kaba team is something I must have glossed over because that alone is like wtf this dude must be scum or smoking some weird stuff.
-Pretty sure BP taker is scum aligned, cause if that situation isnt true and said role exists then im almost certain lastwhisper is scum. I can't see a world where if both roles exist that they're on the same team.
-I never noticed but tom really doesnt want to focus dbs only me now, and it makes me wonder if he has something to do if hes scum with the fact that dbs wasnt a NK option yet
Honestly I'm pretty convinced of this, if az were to flip town tom would immediatly be scum in my eyes. The question is next phase idk if i want to vote az or tom now.
Kaba has 90% chance of flipping scum? what exactly adds up to the percentages? I actually have the reasons to back up my percentages, or I don't use it. you're wrong about Killjoy, Iso is presumably wrong about Jenna, isn't it my turn to be proven wrong now?
you're just being demanding. disagree or brush off cases someone makes simply cuz it doesn't align with your personal feelings. when someone asks for a case from you, you just say you're not good at making cases. why did you join the game in the first place? can't you at least learn to case someone? if you don't want to case someone, don't stop someone who is trying their best to convince you or others with their case. this kind of play is very dispiriting and annoying.
winning isn't everything. so long as you can have a good game and outwit someone, it's good enough. not talk bricks about YOUR POINT OR FEELINGS - you should know since I actually conceded the win to scum before. if a game ends poorly, nobody will be happy with the results. now can you please get off your demanding behavior, and actually try to case someone? (not saying you're doing this on purpose, but that's an obstacle in communication.)
why do you think Shin is town? case it for me. I've already cased him for everyone to read, repeatedly.
Be grateful, always."