@KJ, eh, I wouldn't use my super-spensive ability on my towniest read. I would burn it on someone I was on the fence with or a scumread.
I guess it could be argued to track someone who claimed a non-targeting role too, but burning a one-time use to "confirm" an ability on my towniest read that wouldn't even confirm truthfulness of the ability or not (if there isn't a 2nd death then it cant)... that doesn't compute.
You're just going out of your way to get me to be scum for this.
When one of my towniest reads will likely get PoE lynched alter town the line, it's a priority of mine to clear them.
And targeting a nontarget role is bad because what if they actually have no targeting roles, but as scum. My role does nothing.
Pheonix is obviosuly the best target. There are other uses for it, but none are really as good unless I get lucky. Pheonix doesn't require luck to work.
I think KJ is probably flipping not-townie, btw, based on his most recent back-and-forth post.
I really wish I wasn't town just so I could put that "scum mastermind" quote in my sig.
But answer my question re: tom and Osie. What are your opinions on them.
--------------------------
Tom/Osie/LngrrR probably not scum together (all 3) based on their opinions on me. My back and forth with Osie reminds me of my back and forth with town!Proph actually so I'm wondering if I'm wrong there.
Hm. I'll need to think on this.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Actually... no it doesn't. I realized after I did it how much I failed to correctly mimic it. I went from like 0 to 100 with no buildup. I'm surprised that wasn't a reason I was caught.
But I asked you a question. All the reasons you think I'm scum, please.
So we're supposed to treat this as different because you remembered to throw out some other posts before starting in on a push on me? What a stupid concept.
But sure, I'll go into some detail about why I think you're scum. Again.
After RVS, you went on a quick Tom+LW push, which you drastically turned around with a pile of hedging. In the same turn-around post, you said that you were scumreading me because, in RVS, I was "just making comments and jokes and actually doing very little to find scum." You follow this up in that same post with "Caveat: I seem to ALWAYS scumread Osie. However however… I HATE his progression on me." Okay, so this was post 355. What progression could you be referring to?
My first non-RVS interaction with you was when I pointed out in #158 that you should stop setup gaming as it's mostly not productive. By this point, you had made post #7, which I didn't like, #14, which I liked, #111, which was mixed, but had several moments I didn't like (including the one I quoted), #113, which I agreed with in part, but didn't feel was particularly helpful, and #119, which included a perfectly reasonable snappy comeback followed by unnecessary defense and an okay question.
Afterwards, in #168, you then commented that you weren't reading my spoiler wall. There were other bits of that post that I found meh. Overall, that post was okay at best.
In #297, I mentioned a scumlean on you which I had alluded to in #240. I explained it in my following two posts, #321 and #322. You didn't seem to be putting in much effort to actually read people. Your content felt half-hearted. D_V had also commented in #233 that you + LW as a team made sense, based on a comment from Az (who might suggest that as either alignment).
In #334 and #336, I pointed out that while I did believe that you and LW were scum, there was a possibility of one of you two being town, but I had to look back at other people a bit more. By #349, I had reread some more and was inclined to not believe Az's comment that you and D_V were aligned as scum, which, sure enough, you weren't, only believing that one of you two was scum, which D_V's flip only further suggests was you.
So your issue with that progression looked no better than OMGUS as town, and looked like you realizing "Hey, I mislynched Osie last game as scum, why not try it again?"
As I said in #2024, "I'm inclined to believe for a variety of reasons that his longer posts and his attempts try to quickly mislynch me out of the game are in this case possible scumtells."
One of the reasons in that "variety of reasons" was the previous game.
After your post #355, we have #483, which includes an attempt to look busy by snarking back at D_V. You comment here that I have "so many jokey posts" and "how do you find mafia if that's what you do all game?"
At that point, I had claimed and explained why, developed and expressed reads on basically everyone who had posted, questioned Dawning and Terry, expressed a large number of concerns and likes on those players and other players, pointed out a fault in a player's (LW's) thinking, discussed how the application of prisoner's dilemma ties in to things in regards to LnGrrrR's plan, and why it might not work, ISO'd Dawning, discussed gamestate with D_V and Tom, pointed out to Dawning that there was some interaction with Terry and LW, pointed out to Dawning that the countertrain activity wasn't necessarily particularly indicative given the circumstances and explained why, discussed why I wasn't a fan of LnGrrrR, reread Terry leading to a flip there after discussion with D_V, questioned Shinichi's starting comments as not completely clear, answered Dawning's question of self-meta (to a degree), questioned Az, Dawning, D_V, Iso, LnGrrrR, and Terry's reads…
Implying that I'd just been joking and not doing anything is ridiculous.
Then there's your ISO on me, which, as multiple people have expressed, seems to have a whole lot of non-scum and town moments for a conclusion of which you "always thought Osie was scum following that post. I was kinda eh before."
In your ISO on me, you talk about me faking emotions in my first long post, but then when pressed on why, you gave a response based on posts I made after your ISO.
The ISO included a lot of cherrypicking, for which you oh-so-conveniently gave yourself the excuse of "Quite a bit of fluff. I found myself skipping a lot of posts for being completely useless or just answering basic questions and whatnot."
Similarly, you latched on to this idea of me "looking at the game based how I've made my list." Given that I've explained that the list is a form of note-taking, why would I not be looking at my notes and thinking about the game based on that? Are you suggesting that you're rereading the entire game each time you post? What kind of nonsense is that?
I could go on through your posts, but beyond that point, you're already scummy, and most of the rest just contributed further to the same impression.
There's a lot that the following observation from my ISO on you applies to:
"I feel like it's like an anti-evolution argument; there's 'some ideal point of detail' and it's never going to be reached."
~~~~~~
As for the similarity to Dark and Stormy, you did the same thing of build-up into an ISO. If you argue "Well, this is a better scumgame," you're only digging yourself a deeper hole.
~~~~~~
Oh yeah, and yet another instance where knowing your scum alignment in Dark and Stormy affected my read of you in this game:
"But even when he seems like he's potentially considering the possibility of a hard tunnel, it's like he just shuts off any other possibility. I also get the feeling that this long posting style and attempt to setup what appears to be a chain of mislynches starting with a hard tunnel on someone who is town is EXACTLY what Killjoy would gravitate towards as scum."
To clarify, I may or may not off myself until a majority of the town states that it wants me to do so. I have a question to the mod pending on whether I can suicide from 2 BP as well; that may determine my ally/betray choice.
If I can ally my way up to 4, I can get another protect off before death. Or, if I get betrayed tonight and go to 2, I *might* be able to kill myself solely through the operation of my own doc protect, and eliminate the possibility of scum sabotaging my suicide.
Worst possible outcome would be to not use the doc protect, betray, get boosted by three, and be unable to self-terminate. So, probably have to play around that.
Honestly, Az, I don't feel you've given a good enough explanation for why it would be favorable for you to suicide out, besides to get people to trust your reads. And aren't you a strong enough player to convince people? Aren't you a strong enough player that we absolutely can and should believe you would run any gambit? You would push your scumbuddies down a ravine and pull them back out again? You would push scumreads on players that are more likely to be town?
If you are town, then, well, my only refrain for you remaining is:
uggh I know I said I wouldnt switch votes, but Terry/Myself/Kabazame/Tom have all realized that even if his role exists, its most likely scum aligned
Sorry Pheonix vote: Pheonix
Cythare hasn't done enough yet. Not enough info there either.
So yeah. Osie, tom, Kaba, Jenna, LnGrrR are my preferred lynches.
Sorry about the triple post.
Excuse me? Didn't you just say that you had town feelings towards Osieorb? Tom could have easily killed me last night and he didn't. LnGrrrR already told you off twice.
(((A)))
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
[...{
Jenna handled her role weird. As a tracker, she had info on exactly ONE person's night actions. But even after Pheonix told what he had to tell, she still asked for more info from other people.
(((B)))
Which I dislike solely because I know I'm town and think Osie is scum and this feels like she's pushing me over Osie BECAUSE I'm town. I can't prove that, obviously. It's a perspective thing.
(((C)))
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
You sure are quick to jump up my ******** for that though.
Unvote, Vote Osie
(A) So I handled my role weirs when I wanted to give the impression I was a watcher in order to get complete information, and you even say that you would handle my role the same way that I did. And yet you find suspicion within me for that. How do you reconcile this?
(B) That's not the case at all. I wanted an answer on what LastWhisper's perspective was because it didn't seem to line up with prior statements. It is suspicious that you decided to think it was about you though.
uggh I know I said I wouldnt switch votes, but Terry/Myself/Kabazame/Tom have all realized that even if his role exists, its most likely scum aligned
Sorry Pheonix vote: Pheonix
uggh I know I said I wouldnt switch votes, but Terry/Myself/Kabazame/Tom have all realized that even if his role exists, its most likely scum aligned
Sorry Pheonix vote: Pheonix
Why did you apologize to Phoenix?
because I was one of the people initially against his Lynch... Lol that's literally all there is to that statement
(((A)))
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
[...{
Jenna handled her role weird. As a tracker, she had info on exactly ONE person's night actions. But even after Pheonix told what he had to tell, she still asked for more info from other people.
(((B)))
Which I dislike solely because I know I'm town and think Osie is scum and this feels like she's pushing me over Osie BECAUSE I'm town. I can't prove that, obviously. It's a perspective thing.
(((C)))
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
You sure are quick to jump up my ******** for that though.
Unvote, Vote Osie
(A) So I handled my role weirs when I wanted to give the impression I was a watcher in order to get complete information, and you even say that you would handle my role the same way that I did. And yet you find suspicion within me for that. How do you reconcile this?
(B) That's not the case at all. I wanted an answer on what LastWhisper's perspective was because it didn't seem to line up with prior statements. It is suspicious that you decided to think it was about you though.
@dbs If someone is ok using their claim to cause confusion they should be ok claiming, its not an excuse if your ok giving parts of a role out then you better be sure Ill make sure I get the whole information out. If your not willing to out that information then your scummy nuff said. Only scum should have reason to half ass their own claims, i mean u literally saw me do it in 1 night werewolf.
it's biased of you to demand fullclaims from others with yourself as an example. I've seen scum have a tendency to fullclaim on the spot, not softclaim or anything that will give them any unnecessary attention. and if you want to refer to the werewolf game.... please tell me if/what I claimed, and alignment. prove me wrong by MY track record, since you referenced your track record. using your actions to explain others is a really flawed reason.
@dawning I think iso is much more likely scum than anyone on his wagon, but iirc I've already said axel has to be a suspect if both iso/az are town. He had a couple of posts early in the day along the lines of iso is scummy but az is worse.
We've mindmelded a lot though and hes so viscerally town. And also his sentiments about iso/az are basically how I feel about kj and osi rn...
So, like, if iso is town yeah there was probably scum on his wagon at some point? Doesn't look like any on the eod Votecount though. Kinda think that in itself makes scumiso more likely tbh.
I doubt the final Iso wagon was an all-town one. Iso/Axel/Tom. Jenna doesn't seem likely so she's out. my read on Iso/Azrael is t/t. this leaves me only Axel/Tom. anything wrong with this conclusion I'm getting?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
To clarify, I may or may not off myself until a majority of the town states that it wants me to do so. I have a question to the mod pending on whether I can suicide from 2 BP as well; that may determine my ally/betray choice.
If I can ally my way up to 4, I can get another protect off before death. Or, if I get betrayed tonight and go to 2, I *might* be able to kill myself solely through the operation of my own doc protect, and eliminate the possibility of scum sabotaging my suicide.
Worst possible outcome would be to not use the doc protect, betray, get boosted by three, and be unable to self-terminate. So, probably have to play around that.
How is that the worst possible outcome? In that scenario, you use your doc shot, and you go back to 4 BP... meaning you can protect again tomorrow. I would think keeping your role as doc alive is more useful than confirming you are townie.
Honestly, Az, I don't feel you've given a good enough explanation for why it would be favorable for you to suicide out, besides to get people to trust your reads. And aren't you a strong enough player to convince people? Aren't you a strong enough player that we absolutely can and should believe you would run any gambit? You would push your scumbuddies down a ravine and pull them back out again? You would push scumreads on players that are more likely to be town?
If you are town, then, well, my only refrain for you remaining is:
How is that the worst possible outcome? In that scenario, you use your doc shot, and you go back to 4 BP... meaning you can protect again tomorrow. I would think keeping your role as doc alive is more useful than confirming you are townie.
My ideal plan is to try to maintain 3 BP, so that I can die if need be on command. Not that I intend that to happen, not that I intend to stop fighting, but so that the option is available, so if the town decides they want that to happen, it can happen. I think it's a terrible idea, but it's 1000% better than the straight up lynch that Iso & company are trying to push.
Got an answer back from Bur, that I can't activate my ability if it would put me down to zero. So if I'm going to suicide, I need to be at exactly 3. I'd like the town to comment on whether you'd rather me be at 3, or something more than that going into tomorrow, so that whomever I'm paired with can plan accordingly. I think I pretty much have to betray either way, it's just a question of whether you guys want my partner to ally or betray. Either's fine by me, but it just depends on how badly you want to bait the RBer into firing on me, or the NK.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Az, the way I see it, if you're truly a doc you'll get NK'd. If not, then we can figure out your alignment the boring ol' fashioned way with detective work. If you ARE the doc, the more BP the better. Plus, I'd rather not have town have an excuse to not make their stance on you known.
@KJ, not going out of my way at all, just trying to get inside your head. Question: how did you ever think you would get to 9 without public claiming, especially given that the town seemed super eager to betray given the Ally/Betray discussions D1?
Honestly, Az, I don't feel you've given a good enough explanation for why it would be favorable for you to suicide out, besides to get people to trust your reads. And aren't you a strong enough player to convince people? Aren't you a strong enough player that we absolutely can and should believe you would run any gambit? You would push your scumbuddies down a ravine and pull them back out again? You would push scumreads on players that are more likely to be town?
If you are town, then, well, my only refrain for you remaining is:
How is that the worst possible outcome? In that scenario, you use your doc shot, and you go back to 4 BP... meaning you can protect again tomorrow. I would think keeping your role as doc alive is more useful than confirming you are townie.
My ideal plan is to try to maintain 3 BP, so that I can die if need be on command. Not that I intend that to happen, not that I intend to stop fighting, but so that the option is available, so if the town decides they want that to happen, it can happen. I think it's a terrible idea, but it's 1000% better than the straight up lynch that Iso & company are trying to push.
Got an answer back from Bur, that I can't activate my ability if it would put me down to zero. So if I'm going to suicide, I need to be at exactly 3. I'd like the town to comment on whether you'd rather me be at 3, or something more than that going into tomorrow, so that whomever I'm paired with can plan accordingly. I think I pretty much have to betray either way, it's just a question of whether you guys want my partner to ally or betray. Either's fine by me, but it just depends on how badly you want to bait the RBer into firing on me, or the NK.
Why is this even being discussed right now? We have a deadline tomorrow. How does this help us catch scum? Who are we lynching tomorrow?
@KJ, if you are town, why do you think scum hasn't hammered yet?
who do you think is most likely to hammer in this case? but then again, there arent any counter trains forming... which Idk if I like this situation...
@KJ, if you are town, why do you think scum hasn't hammered yet?
who do you think is most likely to hammer in this case? but then again, there arent any counter trains forming... which Idk if I like this situation...
Hey Last, while you're here, mind answering my question from #5525?
U know what since ur gunna keep shading me, then just Lynch me... I'm done with this game...
Why do you feel that I've been shading you rather than legitimately thinking you're scum? Maybe rather than just accusing me of shading you, you could point out issues with what I've said about your posts or explain why I'm wrong? It isn't much of a social game if one or more people are just going to say "You're wasting your time," "Why are you focusing me," and "You're shading me." Where's your spirit? Seriously. I've responded to people's thoughts about myself and others, and elaborated on my thoughts, over the course of the thread. As far as I can tell, you expect to not have to do that, and/or you feel that people are not being fair to you.
I mean lets be honest most cases against me have been good, I cant deny my overall scumminess this game, but I still feel as there is like that 20% where people just say my thoughts are not intellectual, and as someone who doesnt know like legit roles, or the basis of what makes a role real, I seriously thought it could be real, and also I am very bad at reading sarcasm...
and do I feel like your case on me as been relatively more shade then the latter...
and what was the point of your post, if it was so dumb to think it was real, who were you trying to catch? Did my answer make it look like I was scummy or more townish?
and if I was to snipe, killjoy and he flipped scum would you still scum read me? or if he flipped town, would you scum read me? I feel like both results would lead to a scum read on me, so there fore I am not hammering this vote, somebody else can. Can I really make a case to defend him? No, everyones thoughts on him make damn good sense, and I honestly dont like being the hammering vote unless im sure of a flip, or if I am the only option to prevent a "no lynch"
and what was the point of your post, if it was so dumb to think it was real, who were you trying to catch? Did my answer make it look like I was scummy or more townish?
I was just going along with the joke. Your answer wasn't useful from either direction. It just looked like you didn't get it. But taking it seriously if you did get it would have been more concerning.
and if I was to snipe, killjoy and he flipped scum would you still scum read me? or if he flipped town, would you scum read me? I feel like both results would lead to a scum read on me, so there fore I am not hammering this vote, somebody else can. Can I really make a case to defend him? No, everyones thoughts on him make damn good sense, and I honestly dont like being the hammering vote unless im sure of a flip, or if I am the only option to prevent a "no lynch"
I don't think that I would use the hammer to scumread you at this point. The Day is in overtime; it's fine if someone wants to hammer. If someone who was vehemently defending Killjoy hammered him, then I'd have questions, but I don't think that's likely.
I'd still be scumreading you for other reasons, though. However, the nagging possibility that you're just overly-defensive town is still there. I'm inclined to believe that your flip is likely to match Az's flip, though I'd want to see Az's flip first.
It's tilting me like crazy because people are brushing me off because I'm about to get lynched.
with the way you talk about flipping town, you're an information lynch if not a scum lynch.
but either way, I'd rather not be involved in any CFDs or diversion this time. my vote stays off
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Cythare hasn't done enough yet. Not enough info there either.
So yeah. Osie, tom, Kaba, Jenna, LnGrrR are my preferred lynches.
Sorry about the triple post.
Excuse me? Didn't you just say that you had town feelings towards Osieorb? Tom could have easily killed me last night and he didn't. LnGrrrR already told you off twice.
Not as of that post I hadn't. I was still scumreading him up until I realized our arguments were basically the same as me and PRoph have when he's town, and that was really recently.
(((A)))
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
[...{
Jenna handled her role weird. As a tracker, she had info on exactly ONE person's night actions. But even after Pheonix told what he had to tell, she still asked for more info from other people.
(((B)))
Which I dislike solely because I know I'm town and think Osie is scum and this feels like she's pushing me over Osie BECAUSE I'm town. I can't prove that, obviously. It's a perspective thing.
(((C)))
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
You sure are quick to jump up my ******** for that though.
Unvote, Vote Osie
(A) So I handled my role weirs when I wanted to give the impression I was a watcher in order to get complete information, and you even say that you would handle my role the same way that I did. And yet you find suspicion within me for that. How do you reconcile this?
(B) That's not the case at all. I wanted an answer on what LastWhisper's perspective was because it didn't seem to line up with prior statements. It is suspicious that you decided to think it was about you though.
(C) It is still a lie nonetheless.
A)As a tracker, you did noy need to get any more info after Phoenix gave his. Yet you continued asking for it. That's weird.And is not something someone who only has info on one person is likely to do.
B) Again, from my perspective, believing Osie was scum, saying you wanted me lynched before him is basically saying you want to mislynch instead of correctly lynch (which is obviously a scum thing).
@Az, the way I see it, if you're truly a doc you'll get NK'd. If not, then we can figure out your alignment the boring ol' fashioned way with detective work. If you ARE the doc, the more BP the better. Plus, I'd rather not have town have an excuse to not make their stance on you known.
@KJ, not going out of my way at all, just trying to get inside your head. Question: how did you ever think you would get to 9 without public claiming, especially given that the town seemed super eager to betray given the Ally/Betray discussions D1?
Its not you. Az and Tom. I've asked tom to prove his allogations multiple times and he's just not. And Az I've been asking him to help prove Osie innocent to break me out of the tunnel. He's been not doing that, and he hasn't been even addressing it saying he won't do it or anything.
Killjoy (7): Jenna Tolaria, LnGrrrR, Cythare, Axelrod, osieorb18, tomsloger, Iso
The scum on my wagon: Probably Cythare (IIRC he didn't have a good reason on my wagon). Also positioning. Probably look back tomorrow to see how my wagon formed to confirm.
Jenna could be. She's acting funny and she handled her role weird etc.
I really want tom to be scum, but he's probably just being tom, and is trolling me for no reason.
Iso could be scum, but I feel like since Az is warming his way onto the wagon with his decaying townread as of late, he might be scum as well. and I'm not sure they're aligned. They haven't been butting heads of late though. Maybe they ARE scum together?
I'm a bit wary of Kaba. The way he got on me for the thing so quick felt oppertunistic.
Scum off the wagon... idk. Az seems focused on Shin, but if Az is scum... I wanna say Shin isn't.
I'm gonna guess that dawn might be scum solely because I'm townreading her so hard, and because my reads make me the best at mafia. [/sarcasm] (But actually I'm townreading her superhard... which PROBABLY means she's scum for something super obvious that I'm just kinda unconciously ignoring.
For the sake of vanity though, Dawn is still town.
Whisper is similarly town.
Terry as well.
Oh yeah, I'm still voting Osie. Unvote
For postgame cred, I'd say maybe Jenna/Cythare/Iso/Shin or Az.Sideways glance at Kaba. Sideways glance through the Bifrost at Dawn.
Az could also be a neutral. He's been literally saying he thinks that I am. He even says I'll flip 'nontownie' instead of scum, as if he's looking for that.
Keep an eye on him.
It's tilting me like crazy because people are brushing me off because I'm about to get lynched.
with the way you talk about flipping town, you're an information lynch if not a scum lynch.
but either way, I'd rather not be involved in any CFDs or diversion this time. my vote stays off
I see that now. I was so hoping to use my abilities though. Meh.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
the lack of counter train still worries me, are scum really just gunna let their teammate die?
@killjoy the way u handled that Jenna claim was wierd none the less, feels just as opportunstic as Kaba... same as when Phoenix thought I slipped during day 1.. and whoever else, there were two people that voted me when someone else had pointed out I slipped, and the said person wasnt even the one to vote, yet two different people sheeped that dudes comment who voted me...
maybe is was Axel? but I dont think he is scum, and Phoenix can still flip scum... another reason why I'm not gunna assume just off ur interaction with Jenna's claim that you must be scum...
the lack of counter train still worries me, are scum really just gunna let their teammate die?
@killjoy the way u handled that Jenna claim was wierd none the less, feels just as opportunstic as Kaba... same as when Phoenix thought I slipped during day 1.. and whoever else, there were two people that voted me when someone else had pointed out I slipped, and the said person wasnt even the one to vote, yet two different people sheeped that dudes comment who voted me...
maybe is was Axel? but I dont think he is scum, and Phoenix can still flip scum... another reason why I'm not gunna assume just off ur interaction with Jenna's claim that you must be scum...
You're the countertrain. But congrats! People are less likely to vote for you if you self-vote at sub-50% of lynch threshold.
If Az flips town, then that pushes LW and Dawning thoroughly towards town for me, and I start to look more suspiciously at the Iso+Town category.
If Az flips scum, then things stay roughly the same, though I look a bit more favorably at Jenna and Iso, at the least.
So unless a compelling case comes up, or we desperately need to avoid a no lynch, I'm leaving my vote on Az.
Iso (all universes)
Shin (all universes)
At least one of Jenna or Terry
Killjoy (??? I don't recall seeing any convincing explanation for his no reaction to Jenna, which is bad. Also, Osie unvoted him, which means that the right thing to do is to kill him because osie is wrong about everything. Recent posts seem...limp.)
Cyth and Tom uncleared trees, but unlikely compared to the five above.
Terry is climbing higher and higher due to the sheer inflexibility in his read in the face of any and all logic.
I'd rather not be involved in any CFDs or diversion this time. my vote stays off
Your vote would be a hammer; no opportunity for CFDs or diversion.
I'm townreading aka vehemently defending Killjoy: what you said. and actually, I'd like to see if I'm the only one in this town who is capable of diversion or...'active thinking'.
It's tilting me like crazy because people are brushing me off because I'm about to get lynched.
with the way you talk about flipping town, you're an information lynch if not a scum lynch.
but either way, I'd rather not be involved in any CFDs or diversion this time. my vote stays off
I see that now. I was so hoping to use my abilities though. Meh.
no worries. there's a small chance of anyone using their abilities with 2 claimed roleblockers still alive. .... I'm really amazed at this town's willingness to overlook 2 claimed roleblockers. mind telling me what you think of it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
@Lastwhisper
get off the self-voting and choose between Killjoy or the claimed roleblockers (Dawn/Shinichi). if you think Shin is town then I'm scum or neutral - lynch me. why're you trying to spare a lynch on possible tpr? we can't both be town roleblockers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
What do you think of LW's self-vote? (Or what does your scum!Az persona think of LW's self-vote?)
Well, my "persona" is so convinced that LW is town that I was trying not to waste brain cells reading into it very far. It's consistent with the heavily town frustration and angst we've been seeing since shortly after I laid into him D1.
I have this tongue in cheek category in my brain called "scum IRL", which I know is a very rude way to refer to people, but isn't nearly as bad a thing as it sounds. What it really means isn't that I think that someone is a terrible person, but that on an emotional level, they tend to exhibit certain traits that I associate with a scum mindset, as part of their natural, townie way of being. LW is in the category, but also has a ton of natural town tells.
Iso is also very much in that category, which is one part of why I always wind up pressuring him as town on D1. But again, after I've laid into Iso for several days straight IRL, I've usually put enough pressure onto him to get to Iso's 2nd layer of more subtle pressure tells, which give me actual, genuine reads on him. This game, unlike unusual, I've got nothing from that second layer of tells that's warning me off. Could it be because he's been completely castrated by time issues? Theoretically, yes. But in practice, I see what he DOES spend his time on, and it's mostly sounding good and posturing for the cameras, making good sound bites, not actually thinking anything through.
There's also a significant portion of me that respects Iso's abilities too much to think he can actually misread me quite so terribly and thoughtlessly. That plays a role too. Iso and I have both played in enough games together, and destroyed enough scum teams both separately and apart, that being this far off in reading the other would be pretty shocking. I don't buy a world where we're both town v. town, ineptly reading each other completely opposite. I don't think either of us have fallen that far.
So unless a compelling case comes up, or we desperately need to avoid a no lynch, I'm leaving my vote on Az.
Why don't you assume that if you actually had a majority in support of my dying, I would be forced to suicide or die tomorrow, or get NKed by scum?
Assuming I'm dead by tomorrow night through one of those methods, which is overwhelmingly likely, you're going to need to find someone else to chase today. Unless you just plan to park your vote on me to posture better as scum. I mean, there's always that. But I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt for some reason, no matter how hard you try to kill us all. Seems loose of me, but...*shrug*
@Lastwhisper
get off the self-voting and choose between Killjoy or the claimed roleblockers (Dawn/Shinichi). if you think Shin is town then I'm scum or neutral - lynch me. why're you trying to spare a lynch on possible tpr? we can't both be town roleblockers.
So unless a compelling case comes up, or we desperately need to avoid a no lynch, I'm leaving my vote on Az.
Why don't you assume that if you actually had a majority in support of my dying, I would be forced to suicide or die tomorrow, or get NKed by scum?
Assuming I'm dead by tomorrow night through one of those methods, which is overwhelmingly likely, you're going to need to find someone else to chase today. Unless you just plan to park your vote on me to posture better as scum. I mean, there's always that. But I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt for some reason, no matter how hard you try to kill us all. Seems loose of me, but...*shrug*
So... fearmongering. Doesn't help things.
If you want to do something actually useful while we're both here, rather than just telling me that I'm "anti-town" and "wrong" because I'm not stepping in line with the Azrael Master Plan, talk to me about who out of my other non-town reads makes more sense to vote than you and why, or convince me that Shin is actually scum. He's low enough in my townleans that I'm willing to consider that.
The funny thing, is that if Killjoy flips scum, It still wont deter me from thinking osie is scum, and if he flips town, Osie is stil scum... almost a win/win except for killjoy flips town... time to see how the votes change in the coming days...
The funny thing, is that if Killjoy flips scum, It still wont deter me from thinking osie is scum, and if he flips town, Osie is stil scum... almost a win/win except for killjoy flips town... time to see how the votes change in the coming days...
lol, i mean if he flips scum then I def get something... and if he flips scum I will stil pursue you... but Im not trying to see him get lynch, I just want to see what people will do now that hes back at L1 again... lol
OK, so KJ. I wish this thread weren't so epicly long that you could actually go back and read a bunch of stuff in context, because that *really* matters sometimes. But there's just no way that's going to happen with this game.
Quote from KJ »
Take this post how you will. I've given up believing you guys won't lynch me. The only thing I can do is give opinions now.
The scum on my wagon: Probably Cythare (IIRC he didn't have a good reason on my wagon). Also positioning. Probably look back tomorrow to see how my wagon formed to confirm.
Jenna could be. She's acting funny and she handled her role weird etc.
I really want tom to be scum, but he's probably just being tom, and is trolling me for no reason.
Iso could be scum, but I feel like since Az is warming his way onto the wagon with his decaying townread as of late, he might be scum as well. and I'm not sure they're aligned. They haven't been butting heads of late though. Maybe they ARE scum together?
I'm a bit wary of Kaba. The way he got on me for the thing so quick felt oppertunistic.
Scum off the wagon... idk. Az seems focused on Shin, but if Az is scum... I wanna say Shin isn't.
I'm gonna guess that dawn might be scum solely because I'm townreading her so hard, and because my reads make me the best at mafia. [/sarcasm] (But actually I'm townreading her superhard... which PROBABLY means she's scum for something super obvious that I'm just kinda unconciously ignoring.
For the sake of vanity though, Dawn is still town.
Whisper is similarly town.
Terry as well.
Oh yeah, I'm still voting Osie. Unvote
For postgame cred, I'd say maybe Jenna/Cythare/Iso/Shin or Az.Sideways glance at Kaba. Sideways glance through the Bifrost at Dawn.
Az could also be a neutral. He's been literally saying he thinks that I am. He even says I'll flip 'nontownie' instead of scum, as if he's looking for that.
Keep an eye on him.
I snipped in the top quote. That sentiment can be AtE at times, but it felt genuine to me here, after I started reading some of the other things he wrote.
Take a look at this reads section. The ellipses. The nuanced if-then scenarios.
The repeated concern for holding people accountable. The casual and decisive town-reads on a significant number of people.
That's town-style reads.
Is it possible town KJ just didn't respond in a reasonable, logical way to Jenna's claim for some reason and has been bad at explaining it? Reading on to find out.
Quote from KJ »
It's tilting me like crazy because people are brushing me off because I'm about to get lynched.
Az. Answer my question. What do you think of Tom and Osie.
That...seems really townish as a comment. This is the thing that's bothering him - that he's preoccupied with - at the point of death?
I was originally presuming a version of scum fatalism out of him, lazy and removed, but in actually reading through his posts I'm seeing the opposite. He cares - a lot. He just cares about winning, not about whether he survives, because he's convinced he won't.
Quote from KJ »
Ok os lets start with: Osie's 5569 is probably town.Thatlevel of conviction hardly comes from scum. Too little too late I suppose.
Indeed. And he's made posts like that all over the place.
Quote from KJ »
Hm. How to best explain this.
It's like... when someone claims miller, and the vig is usually obligated to shoot him. There's controversy in the role. The only other way to deal with it is lynch him, but if I can resolve him without a lynch, then I think I should.
My ability tells me who the person targeted every night, and that information is what is potentially condemning Pheonix right now. The only real other way to use that ability effectively is to catch fakeclaiming Vanilla (which I doubt there are in this game) or catch someone who says they didn't target someone every night and figure out that they did... which is kind of a crapshoot. It's not optimal.
My ability has a very good chance to clear Pheonix, who I think is town. So I'll do that.
One of the things I noted as being really strange about KJ was that he thought the town might actually give him 9 BP so he could clear Phoenix. I called that delusional. And it is.
But reading this explanation, it's sounding a hell of a lot less like ballsy scum gambitting fearlessly while almost dead, and a LOT more like an oblivious townie with limitless optimism that of course the town will come to read him correctly and utilize his ability cooperatively for the greater good. Because, why wouldn't they?
Quote from KJ »
Yes tom. That's what happened. That's what I've been saying happened. I didn't see the claim, assumed she was a Watcher, and that she had caught Pheonix. Why are you trying to prove this? I literally said it was true.
Also, she actually claimed Tracker, IIRC so IDK what you're saying about her claiming watcher.
And saying that I, as town, would definately read the claim etc. I'm saying isn't true. My play is quite a bit reactionary... not entirely but at least partially.
So can you stop ignoring my requests to prove your case on me? You're saying I don't do reactions. Prove it.
Oh. Ok. He did have an actual answer as to why he didn't call her out.
And given the length of the thread, I can certainly believe that. I'm skimming things like crazy, too.
Yeah...KJ's town.
Quote from KJ »
Hm. Ok I can't see a world where this statement comes from a scumbuddy. So Axel not scum with tom.
So instead of OMGUS, an intelligent townie read on Axel. +Town.
Concluding reread at 2/10.
Killjoy's town, reinstating read that wagons on both KJ and LW were horrible and anti-town. Retractions and apologies to Osie for catching it, if only belatedly. If anyone disagrees, come at me.
Meanwhile, vote: Shinichi. I wholeheartedly advocate murdering Shin or Jenna today as an alternative. I don't see how what Jenna did yesterday clears her in the slightest, and she's once again made every effort to be a chameleon. And if you need more than the behavioral cases that have been presented thus far, try considering this from an unaligned role pairing standpoint. Does the town have two RBers? Pretty unlikely. So between Shin and DBS, both of them RBers, which is the scum? Does the town have both a watcher and a tracker? Unlikely. So between KJ and Jenna, a tracker and a watcher, which is the scum? Jenna, both by behavior, and since trackers are more commonly the scum role. Of those two, double RBer is the most unlikely, so I'm sending my ill intentions that direction first.
If you want to do something actually useful while we're both here, rather than just telling me that I'm "anti-town" and "wrong" because I'm not stepping in line with the Azrael Master Plan, talk to me about who out of my other non-town reads makes more sense to vote than you and why, or convince me that Shin is actually scum. He's low enough in my townleans that I'm willing to consider that.
Not fear-mongering in the slightest.
I'm telling you that if you want me dead, I'm dead. I'm already dead. Either I'm scum who's trapped himself by offering to kill himself off, and who will be lynched as soon as I refuse to kill myself or B) I'm town who's going to be NKed shortly, or C) I'm town who will suicide himself to save you the lynch.
In either A, B, C, or I'm a dead man walking. So instead of trying to kill a dead man, why not...do literally anything else with your vote than completely waste it?
lol, i mean if he flips scum then I def get something... and if he flips scum I will stil pursue you... but Im not trying to see him get lynch, I just want to see what people will do now that hes back at L1 again... lol
One of:
A) Nothing
B) A Hammer
C) Unvotes
D) Discussion (refer back to A)
~~~~
Also, you have yet to really answer this, despite my reiterations of this question. If no answer after this reiteration, I'm just going to assume that you don't have an answer.
@Az, why would scum!Jenna out her tracker ability? To 1 for 1 Phoenix? How does that make sense?
If Shin is scum, and LW is town, why would Shin ally LW?
Jenna was under heavy pressure yesterday. If she wound up trading herself for a mislynch on Phoenix, that'd hardly be a terrible move for the scum at this point in her life cycle. Two, she claimed truthful tracker results. So even if Phoenix flips town, why should we hold her accountable for acting on the same information that the rest of the town had in front of it? That'd be kind of hypocritical, no?
Why would Shin ally? If he's looking for town-cred, he may assume it's safer not to antagonize people on the opposite team. Hell, with the way most people were reading LW, I'm surprised he allied instead of had a healthy sense of paranoia and went with betray. I don't know many people aside from me or DBS who actually have stated much of a reason to trust LW.
@Osie - If you have the time, might I recommend you do your own reread on Shinichi?
Given the duelling roleblocker claims, this is obviously a tree we need to be looking at hard. But if you haven't been argued into Shinichi by what I've already posted, I doubt you're going to take my word as one of your deep scum reads over your own.
Take a look, see what you think, let us know your thoughts.
When one of my towniest reads will likely get PoE lynched alter town the line, it's a priority of mine to clear them.
And targeting a nontarget role is bad because what if they actually have no targeting roles, but as scum. My role does nothing.
Pheonix is obviosuly the best target. There are other uses for it, but none are really as good unless I get lucky. Pheonix doesn't require luck to work.
I really wish I wasn't town just so I could put that "scum mastermind" quote in my sig.
But answer my question re: tom and Osie. What are your opinions on them.
--------------------------
Tom/Osie/LngrrR probably not scum together (all 3) based on their opinions on me. My back and forth with Osie reminds me of my back and forth with town!Proph actually so I'm wondering if I'm wrong there.
Hm. I'll need to think on this.
So we're supposed to treat this as different because you remembered to throw out some other posts before starting in on a push on me?
What a stupid concept.
But sure, I'll go into some detail about why I think you're scum. Again.
After RVS, you went on a quick Tom+LW push, which you drastically turned around with a pile of hedging. In the same turn-around post, you said that you were scumreading me because, in RVS, I was "just making comments and jokes and actually doing very little to find scum." You follow this up in that same post with "Caveat: I seem to ALWAYS scumread Osie. However however… I HATE his progression on me." Okay, so this was post 355. What progression could you be referring to?
Afterwards, in #168, you then commented that you weren't reading my spoiler wall. There were other bits of that post that I found meh. Overall, that post was okay at best.
In #297, I mentioned a scumlean on you which I had alluded to in #240. I explained it in my following two posts, #321 and #322. You didn't seem to be putting in much effort to actually read people. Your content felt half-hearted. D_V had also commented in #233 that you + LW as a team made sense, based on a comment from Az (who might suggest that as either alignment).
In #334 and #336, I pointed out that while I did believe that you and LW were scum, there was a possibility of one of you two being town, but I had to look back at other people a bit more. By #349, I had reread some more and was inclined to not believe Az's comment that you and D_V were aligned as scum, which, sure enough, you weren't, only believing that one of you two was scum, which D_V's flip only further suggests was you.
So your issue with that progression looked no better than OMGUS as town, and looked like you realizing "Hey, I mislynched Osie last game as scum, why not try it again?"
As I said in #2024, "I'm inclined to believe for a variety of reasons that his longer posts and his attempts try to quickly mislynch me out of the game are in this case possible scumtells."
One of the reasons in that "variety of reasons" was the previous game.
After your post #355, we have #483, which includes an attempt to look busy by snarking back at D_V. You comment here that I have "so many jokey posts" and "how do you find mafia if that's what you do all game?"
At that point, I had claimed and explained why, developed and expressed reads on basically everyone who had posted, questioned Dawning and Terry, expressed a large number of concerns and likes on those players and other players, pointed out a fault in a player's (LW's) thinking, discussed how the application of prisoner's dilemma ties in to things in regards to LnGrrrR's plan, and why it might not work, ISO'd Dawning, discussed gamestate with D_V and Tom, pointed out to Dawning that there was some interaction with Terry and LW, pointed out to Dawning that the countertrain activity wasn't necessarily particularly indicative given the circumstances and explained why, discussed why I wasn't a fan of LnGrrrR, reread Terry leading to a flip there after discussion with D_V, questioned Shinichi's starting comments as not completely clear, answered Dawning's question of self-meta (to a degree), questioned Az, Dawning, D_V, Iso, LnGrrrR, and Terry's reads…
Implying that I'd just been joking and not doing anything is ridiculous.
Then there's your ISO on me, which, as multiple people have expressed, seems to have a whole lot of non-scum and town moments for a conclusion of which you "always thought Osie was scum following that post. I was kinda eh before."
In your ISO on me, you talk about me faking emotions in my first long post, but then when pressed on why, you gave a response based on posts I made after your ISO.
The ISO included a lot of cherrypicking, for which you oh-so-conveniently gave yourself the excuse of "Quite a bit of fluff. I found myself skipping a lot of posts for being completely useless or just answering basic questions and whatnot."
Similarly, you latched on to this idea of me "looking at the game based how I've made my list." Given that I've explained that the list is a form of note-taking, why would I not be looking at my notes and thinking about the game based on that? Are you suggesting that you're rereading the entire game each time you post? What kind of nonsense is that?
I could go on through your posts, but beyond that point, you're already scummy, and most of the rest just contributed further to the same impression.
There's a lot that the following observation from my ISO on you applies to:
"I feel like it's like an anti-evolution argument; there's 'some ideal point of detail' and it's never going to be reached."
~~~~~~
As for the similarity to Dark and Stormy, you did the same thing of build-up into an ISO. If you argue "Well, this is a better scumgame," you're only digging yourself a deeper hole.
~~~~~~
Oh yeah, and yet another instance where knowing your scum alignment in Dark and Stormy affected my read of you in this game:
"But even when he seems like he's potentially considering the possibility of a hard tunnel, it's like he just shuts off any other possibility. I also get the feeling that this long posting style and attempt to setup what appears to be a chain of mislynches starting with a hard tunnel on someone who is town is EXACTLY what Killjoy would gravitate towards as scum."
Honestly, Az, I don't feel you've given a good enough explanation for why it would be favorable for you to suicide out, besides to get people to trust your reads. And aren't you a strong enough player to convince people? Aren't you a strong enough player that we absolutely can and should believe you would run any gambit? You would push your scumbuddies down a ravine and pull them back out again? You would push scumreads on players that are more likely to be town?
If you are town, then, well, my only refrain for you remaining is:
"Where are the Azraels of yesteryear?"
(A) So I handled my role weirs when I wanted to give the impression I was a watcher in order to get complete information, and you even say that you would handle my role the same way that I did. And yet you find suspicion within me for that. How do you reconcile this?
(B) That's not the case at all. I wanted an answer on what LastWhisper's perspective was because it didn't seem to line up with prior statements. It is suspicious that you decided to think it was about you though.
(C) It is still a lie nonetheless.
I doubt the final Iso wagon was an all-town one. Iso/Axel/Tom. Jenna doesn't seem likely so she's out. my read on Iso/Azrael is t/t. this leaves me only Axel/Tom. anything wrong with this conclusion I'm getting?
Be grateful, always."
How is that the worst possible outcome? In that scenario, you use your doc shot, and you go back to 4 BP... meaning you can protect again tomorrow. I would think keeping your role as doc alive is more useful than confirming you are townie.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Right here, being ignored for various reasons.
My ideal plan is to try to maintain 3 BP, so that I can die if need be on command. Not that I intend that to happen, not that I intend to stop fighting, but so that the option is available, so if the town decides they want that to happen, it can happen. I think it's a terrible idea, but it's 1000% better than the straight up lynch that Iso & company are trying to push.
Got an answer back from Bur, that I can't activate my ability if it would put me down to zero. So if I'm going to suicide, I need to be at exactly 3. I'd like the town to comment on whether you'd rather me be at 3, or something more than that going into tomorrow, so that whomever I'm paired with can plan accordingly. I think I pretty much have to betray either way, it's just a question of whether you guys want my partner to ally or betray. Either's fine by me, but it just depends on how badly you want to bait the RBer into firing on me, or the NK.
Az. Answer my question. What do you think of Tom and Osie.
Also I expect a town case on Osie tomorrow.
I'll answer the stuff addressed to me when I'm at a computer.
@KJ, not going out of my way at all, just trying to get inside your head. Question: how did you ever think you would get to 9 without public claiming, especially given that the town seemed super eager to betray given the Ally/Betray discussions D1?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
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Killjoy (7): Jenna Tolaria, LnGrrrR, Cythare, Axelrod, osieorb18, tomsloger, Iso
osieorb18 (2): dawningbluesky, Killjoy
Lastwhisper (3): Phoenix-Fire, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Lastwhisper
Shinichi (1): Azrael
dawningbluesky (1): Shinichi
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (1): Kabazame
Not voting (0):
With 15 alive, it’s 8 to lynch. Deadline is Monday, November 27th at 11.59 pm EST.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Hey Last, while you're here, mind answering my question from #5525?
and do I feel like your case on me as been relatively more shade then the latter...
and what was the point of your post, if it was so dumb to think it was real, who were you trying to catch? Did my answer make it look like I was scummy or more townish?
and if I was to snipe, killjoy and he flipped scum would you still scum read me? or if he flipped town, would you scum read me? I feel like both results would lead to a scum read on me, so there fore I am not hammering this vote, somebody else can. Can I really make a case to defend him? No, everyones thoughts on him make damn good sense, and I honestly dont like being the hammering vote unless im sure of a flip, or if I am the only option to prevent a "no lynch"
Yeah, but why? Where am I shading you rather than providing legitimate points? Why is that the case?
I was just going along with the joke. Your answer wasn't useful from either direction. It just looked like you didn't get it. But taking it seriously if you did get it would have been more concerning.
I don't think that I would use the hammer to scumread you at this point. The Day is in overtime; it's fine if someone wants to hammer. If someone who was vehemently defending Killjoy hammered him, then I'd have questions, but I don't think that's likely.
I'd still be scumreading you for other reasons, though. However, the nagging possibility that you're just overly-defensive town is still there. I'm inclined to believe that your flip is likely to match Az's flip, though I'd want to see Az's flip first.
but either way, I'd rather not be involved in any CFDs or diversion this time. my vote stays off
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Your vote would be a hammer; no opportunity for CFDs or diversion.
Ok os lets start with: Osie's 5569 is probably town.Thatlevel of conviction hardly comes from scum. Too little too late I suppose.
Not as of that post I hadn't. I was still scumreading him up until I realized our arguments were basically the same as me and PRoph have when he's town, and that was really recently.
A)As a tracker, you did noy need to get any more info after Phoenix gave his. Yet you continued asking for it. That's weird.And is not something someone who only has info on one person is likely to do.
B) Again, from my perspective, believing Osie was scum, saying you wanted me lynched before him is basically saying you want to mislynch instead of correctly lynch (which is obviously a scum thing).
C) ...No it's not?Or are you saying Osie lied?
Its not you. Az and Tom. I've asked tom to prove his allogations multiple times and he's just not. And Az I've been asking him to help prove Osie innocent to break me out of the tunnel. He's been not doing that, and he hasn't been even addressing it saying he won't do it or anything.
The scum on my wagon: Probably Cythare (IIRC he didn't have a good reason on my wagon). Also positioning. Probably look back tomorrow to see how my wagon formed to confirm.
Jenna could be. She's acting funny and she handled her role weird etc.
I really want tom to be scum, but he's probably just being tom, and is trolling me for no reason.
Iso could be scum, but I feel like since Az is warming his way onto the wagon with his decaying townread as of late, he might be scum as well. and I'm not sure they're aligned. They haven't been butting heads of late though. Maybe they ARE scum together?
I'm a bit wary of Kaba. The way he got on me for the thing so quick felt oppertunistic.
Scum off the wagon... idk. Az seems focused on Shin, but if Az is scum... I wanna say Shin isn't.
I'm gonna guess that dawn might be scum solely because I'm townreading her so hard, and because my reads make me the best at mafia. [/sarcasm] (But actually I'm townreading her superhard... which PROBABLY means she's scum for something super obvious that I'm just kinda unconciously ignoring.
For the sake of vanity though, Dawn is still town.
Whisper is similarly town.
Terry as well.
Oh yeah, I'm still voting Osie. Unvote
For postgame cred, I'd say maybe Jenna/Cythare/Iso/Shin or Az.Sideways glance at Kaba. Sideways glance through the Bifrost at Dawn.
Az could also be a neutral. He's been literally saying he thinks that I am. He even says I'll flip 'nontownie' instead of scum, as if he's looking for that.
Keep an eye on him.
Az is getting ready to I think.
But no one is 1) against it and 2) entertaining other options. So I can't see what else could happen here.
I see that now. I was so hoping to use my abilities though. Meh.
On some level, it's AtE, but I think he's being truthful, and I don't want to continue voting him. Killjoy light townread.
Unvote
Vote: Azrael
@killjoy the way u handled that Jenna claim was wierd none the less, feels just as opportunstic as Kaba... same as when Phoenix thought I slipped during day 1.. and whoever else, there were two people that voted me when someone else had pointed out I slipped, and the said person wasnt even the one to vote, yet two different people sheeped that dudes comment who voted me...
maybe is was Axel? but I dont think he is scum, and Phoenix can still flip scum... another reason why I'm not gunna assume just off ur interaction with Jenna's claim that you must be scum...
You're the countertrain. But congrats! People are less likely to vote for you if you self-vote at sub-50% of lynch threshold.
It's a 5000 plus post game. I've done actual PBPAs on both already.
Osie is very anti town, his reads and cases are awful, but probably townie nonetheless. Tom is in my POE pile, but solely because I cant read him.
(Probably 1) 0-1 Scum: Azrael
(Probably 2) 2-4 Scum: Tom/Terry/Cythare/Kabazame
(Probably 0) 0-2 Scum: Iso/Townleans/Townreads
(Probably 1) 0-2 Scum: LW/Dawning/Jenna
If Az flips town, then that pushes LW and Dawning thoroughly towards town for me, and I start to look more suspiciously at the Iso+Town category.
If Az flips scum, then things stay roughly the same, though I look a bit more favorably at Jenna and Iso, at the least.
So unless a compelling case comes up, or we desperately need to avoid a no lynch, I'm leaving my vote on Az.
Iso (all universes)
Shin (all universes)
At least one of Jenna or Terry
Killjoy (??? I don't recall seeing any convincing explanation for his no reaction to Jenna, which is bad. Also, Osie unvoted him, which means that the right thing to do is to kill him because osie is wrong about everything. Recent posts seem...limp.)
Cyth and Tom uncleared trees, but unlikely compared to the five above.
Terry is climbing higher and higher due to the sheer inflexibility in his read in the face of any and all logic.
Going to do a final reread on KJ.
PFFT. I'll save this for posterity, though.
What do you think of LW's self-vote? (Or what does your scum!Az persona think of LW's self-vote?)
I'm townreading aka vehemently defending Killjoy: what you said. and actually, I'd like to see if I'm the only one in this town who is capable of diversion or...'active thinking'.
no worries. there's a small chance of anyone using their abilities with 2 claimed roleblockers still alive. .... I'm really amazed at this town's willingness to overlook 2 claimed roleblockers. mind telling me what you think of it?
Be grateful, always."
@Lastwhisper
get off the self-voting and choose between Killjoy or the claimed roleblockers (Dawn/Shinichi). if you think Shin is town then I'm scum or neutral - lynch me. why're you trying to spare a lynch on possible tpr? we can't both be town roleblockers.
Be grateful, always."
Well, my "persona" is so convinced that LW is town that I was trying not to waste brain cells reading into it very far. It's consistent with the heavily town frustration and angst we've been seeing since shortly after I laid into him D1.
I have this tongue in cheek category in my brain called "scum IRL", which I know is a very rude way to refer to people, but isn't nearly as bad a thing as it sounds. What it really means isn't that I think that someone is a terrible person, but that on an emotional level, they tend to exhibit certain traits that I associate with a scum mindset, as part of their natural, townie way of being. LW is in the category, but also has a ton of natural town tells.
Iso is also very much in that category, which is one part of why I always wind up pressuring him as town on D1. But again, after I've laid into Iso for several days straight IRL, I've usually put enough pressure onto him to get to Iso's 2nd layer of more subtle pressure tells, which give me actual, genuine reads on him. This game, unlike unusual, I've got nothing from that second layer of tells that's warning me off. Could it be because he's been completely castrated by time issues? Theoretically, yes. But in practice, I see what he DOES spend his time on, and it's mostly sounding good and posturing for the cameras, making good sound bites, not actually thinking anything through.
There's also a significant portion of me that respects Iso's abilities too much to think he can actually misread me quite so terribly and thoughtlessly. That plays a role too. Iso and I have both played in enough games together, and destroyed enough scum teams both separately and apart, that being this far off in reading the other would be pretty shocking. I don't buy a world where we're both town v. town, ineptly reading each other completely opposite. I don't think either of us have fallen that far.
Shhhhhh. Quit pushing your unwelcome logics and reasoning. Nobody cares about your silly deductive processes and good play.
Why don't you assume that if you actually had a majority in support of my dying, I would be forced to suicide or die tomorrow, or get NKed by scum?
Assuming I'm dead by tomorrow night through one of those methods, which is overwhelmingly likely, you're going to need to find someone else to chase today. Unless you just plan to park your vote on me to posture better as scum. I mean, there's always that. But I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt for some reason, no matter how hard you try to kill us all. Seems loose of me, but...*shrug*
So... fearmongering. Doesn't help things.
If you want to do something actually useful while we're both here, rather than just telling me that I'm "anti-town" and "wrong" because I'm not stepping in line with the Azrael Master Plan, talk to me about who out of my other non-town reads makes more sense to vote than you and why, or convince me that Shin is actually scum. He's low enough in my townleans that I'm willing to consider that.
But it doesn't matter to you since, unless you're scum, you get nothing out of lynching him...
I snipped in the top quote. That sentiment can be AtE at times, but it felt genuine to me here, after I started reading some of the other things he wrote.
Take a look at this reads section. The ellipses. The nuanced if-then scenarios.
The repeated concern for holding people accountable. The casual and decisive town-reads on a significant number of people.
That's town-style reads.
Is it possible town KJ just didn't respond in a reasonable, logical way to Jenna's claim for some reason and has been bad at explaining it? Reading on to find out.
That...seems really townish as a comment. This is the thing that's bothering him - that he's preoccupied with - at the point of death?
I was originally presuming a version of scum fatalism out of him, lazy and removed, but in actually reading through his posts I'm seeing the opposite. He cares - a lot. He just cares about winning, not about whether he survives, because he's convinced he won't.
Indeed. And he's made posts like that all over the place.
One of the things I noted as being really strange about KJ was that he thought the town might actually give him 9 BP so he could clear Phoenix. I called that delusional. And it is.
But reading this explanation, it's sounding a hell of a lot less like ballsy scum gambitting fearlessly while almost dead, and a LOT more like an oblivious townie with limitless optimism that of course the town will come to read him correctly and utilize his ability cooperatively for the greater good. Because, why wouldn't they?
Oh. Ok. He did have an actual answer as to why he didn't call her out.
And given the length of the thread, I can certainly believe that. I'm skimming things like crazy, too.
Yeah...KJ's town.
So instead of OMGUS, an intelligent townie read on Axel. +Town.
Concluding reread at 2/10.
Killjoy's town, reinstating read that wagons on both KJ and LW were horrible and anti-town. Retractions and apologies to Osie for catching it, if only belatedly. If anyone disagrees, come at me.
Meanwhile, vote: Shinichi. I wholeheartedly advocate murdering Shin or Jenna today as an alternative. I don't see how what Jenna did yesterday clears her in the slightest, and she's once again made every effort to be a chameleon. And if you need more than the behavioral cases that have been presented thus far, try considering this from an unaligned role pairing standpoint. Does the town have two RBers? Pretty unlikely. So between Shin and DBS, both of them RBers, which is the scum? Does the town have both a watcher and a tracker? Unlikely. So between KJ and Jenna, a tracker and a watcher, which is the scum? Jenna, both by behavior, and since trackers are more commonly the scum role. Of those two, double RBer is the most unlikely, so I'm sending my ill intentions that direction first.
Not fear-mongering in the slightest.
I'm telling you that if you want me dead, I'm dead. I'm already dead. Either I'm scum who's trapped himself by offering to kill himself off, and who will be lynched as soon as I refuse to kill myself or B) I'm town who's going to be NKed shortly, or C) I'm town who will suicide himself to save you the lynch.
In either A, B, C, or I'm a dead man walking. So instead of trying to kill a dead man, why not...do literally anything else with your vote than completely waste it?
If Shin is scum, and LW is town, why would Shin ally LW?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
One of:
A) Nothing
B) A Hammer
C) Unvotes
D) Discussion (refer back to A)
~~~~
Also, you have yet to really answer this, despite my reiterations of this question. If no answer after this reiteration, I'm just going to assume that you don't have an answer.
Jenna was under heavy pressure yesterday. If she wound up trading herself for a mislynch on Phoenix, that'd hardly be a terrible move for the scum at this point in her life cycle. Two, she claimed truthful tracker results. So even if Phoenix flips town, why should we hold her accountable for acting on the same information that the rest of the town had in front of it? That'd be kind of hypocritical, no?
Why would Shin ally? If he's looking for town-cred, he may assume it's safer not to antagonize people on the opposite team. Hell, with the way most people were reading LW, I'm surprised he allied instead of had a healthy sense of paranoia and went with betray. I don't know many people aside from me or DBS who actually have stated much of a reason to trust LW.
Given the duelling roleblocker claims, this is obviously a tree we need to be looking at hard. But if you haven't been argued into Shinichi by what I've already posted, I doubt you're going to take my word as one of your deep scum reads over your own.
Take a look, see what you think, let us know your thoughts.