Wait a minute... why would Shin ever ally with LW? He was on LW's L-1 wagon with t minus 4 hours left. Can some one please look into this. I'm mobile only
Again do you really want to make everyone think I was going to hit betray, because right about now it seems like your never going to drop that.
there was some elaboration that he only intended to Betray Dawn/LnG but Ally everyone else. I still don't understand why he would Ally someone who openly announced he would Betray everyone in the first place...Last did say he would Betray everyone on D1.
I had some trust in my own god damn brother lol, but oh well :/. You just made it alot harder for me to use my ability which could really help town in the long run.
I looked back and found you missed a post.
Shin unvoted at #3334, Kaba voted at #3447, leaving the LW wagon at L2. I guess it wasn't a misrep...?
and @Tom
I don't think Killjoy is scum..
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Tbh id rather not have this game revolve around my flip, Im kinda afraid of the nonsensical battles that are gonna come from my flip... but since I have yet to be mislynched, I wonder if some magical force will save me at L-2 again, if it happens again haha...
If scum were on my train day 1, I doubt that they were the first to move off, and that some probably were still there... hmm, probably should go look at that again...
Wait a minute... why would Shin every ally with LW? He was on LW's L-1 wagon with t minus 4 hours left. Can some one please look into this. I'm mobile only
Because if he betrayed, he blocks LW's ability, and if I were Shin, I would want LW to prove his ability.
Tbh id rather not have this game revolve around my flip, Im kinda afraid of the nonsensical battles that are gonna come from my flip... but since I have yet to be mislynched, I wonder if some magical force will save me at L-2 again, if it happens again haha...
If scum were on my train day 1, I doubt that they were the first to move off, and that some probably were still there... hmm, probably should go look at that again...
My point was that scum detracted from your lynch and saved their scum buddy (you).
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
DBS (though, if I am being honest, this is partly just because then he would not be posting anymore...)
a huge portion of my posts is replying to questions and trying not to ignore a certain someone. plenty of clarification involved too, since I've had to explain myself more than once. it's not like my posts are devoid of content.
DBS this is a bit oog, but, the simple fact is you have an offensive number of posts in this game. And I'm not even saying they are devoid of content, though they are often impenetrable or very hard to read with this particular stream-of-consciousness style of yours. You have almost singlehandedly made this game a burden on my life.
Vote: Killjoy
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
This is awful. There are so many obv-scum we're not killing. I don't even know why you guys are after KJ. If I wasn't travelling for thanksgiving, I'd be swamping this thread with angry PBPAs.
Both these wagons are complete and total garbage. If you won't do Jenna or Iso today, get Shin.
I doubt they're having an easy time since this game activity is over the top.
I do agree however the players should work together more, but your way of thinking hasnt helped either. How you expected people to just leave your claim alone, or how you just expected people to just accept the vig claim. Or how you expect people to read last based on the meta you've shown.
Dislike this bit where Shin comments that he thinks the scum aren't having an easy time.
If he's town, what's his basis for that? Is he feeling the strain of having to stay convincing while being that active? If you'd have asked me, I'd have thought that the scum were mostly having an easy time stalling us out and letting us just mill around aimlessly, but having said that, I can see how one of the more active scum posters might feel that way. But IDK that that's the kind of observation that naturally occurs to a town player.
Quote from shin »
Ok this I unerstand, but i still the possibility exists I mean ive seem scum grave diggers before.
*Frowns* Some weak role analysis shade here.
If you're going to engage in mod-gaming, you should at least say something more obnoxious and useful like "in what world are there two town roleblockers?" If you're going to go there.
Quote from shin »
Weird that you bring this up, yet were ok with me claiming in the first place. So i guess comparing your crap of a claim to my claim prob makes you feel better. I also assume since my role isnt as provable as yours, you're ok lynching me. Am I right
Few different times Shin has seemed a tad too preoccupied with defending fairly weak attacks. Minor issue only.
Quote from shin »
Nothing honestly could stop him from being mafia, I mean this role is the perfect claim to give to a scum aligned player.
Well, that's a serious exaggeration. The "perfect role" for scum?
Quote from shin »
How so? If I was desperate I would have pushed him during the entirety of day 1 I would not have started now. No its not in towns best interests its in your best interests because thats your flawed way of saying this guy must be scum he only does this when hes scum.
Where did i imply my skill level was better?
Not great conviction in the defense here. That's a tone read, not a complaint about the content, which is unremarkable.
Quote from shin »
Want me to full claim ill do it right now.
Also no i clarified I misread my own role the same as ISO I thought the (4) was X shots I didnt realize the (4) was the cost of ab to use my ability.
Hmm. This makes the claim timing far more understandable.
Quote from shin »
Meta is flawed, so no reason I would ever buy the arguement. Literally just spent an hour talking to someone about the flaws of meta gaming and we both agreed that its a screwed up way to play.
Ik my brother personality wise I know he thinks and I know why he does his actions. As scum he makes stupid stupid mistakes like fake claiming a dumb role lol. Does not mean i should read my brother as scu everytime he claims an over the top role like @DBS expects me too.
Focus at this point in time is on plentiful back and forth on meta with DBS here, little else.
Quote from shin »
Are you counter claiming her? If not then calm your ***** lol. Most people considered a townie who doesnt claim when on the verge of being lynched as game throwing. So to compare that to Jenna actions is not right.
If you think shes distracting us, then what about DBS she literally made the town run around for 5 days tring to figure out her full claim.
Here's my issue with the mentality here. He's not upset about any of Jenna's legitimate issues here - he's simply pointing to another player who he thinks has done something worse. There are reasons, as town, to not be happy with either. But the mentality here is straight deflection, from one target, to another. Particularly if DBS is town and Shin and Jenna are aligned per current theory, dislike.
Quote from shin »
I love this post from iso, i honestly trust him enough plus my own read on az to say we should just lock a lynch on him.
Undue certainty tell. And undue trust. I have no idea what Iso has done to inspire that much trust from Shin. Other than tell him what to do in scum-chat, anyways.
Quote from shin »
Guess you must be scum then
Guess? That's not town phrasing.
Quote from shin »
And here you go being scummy again lol, was waiting for a post like this. Your literally turning all the fault onto GF when you literally were one of the people that pushed for his lynch harder? This what happens when people rely on claims. What do you think would have happened if he claimed? Did you just want to keep pushing people till a mass claim happened you make no sense.
Also Gf saw no reason to claim don't make it look like thats some kind of playstyle difference, you could have chosen to not claim guess what though u would have prob been lynched as well.
Yet again putting yourself as something other than town is scummy. How did it help them get cop? Find in the thread where DV soft claimed cop? Or even remotely bread crumbed it, then you can tell me that his death was on us.
Btw i don't even remotely believe you were betrayed.
Vote: Dawn
Believe 2 of the scum are you and azreal.
Also since when do u town shame?
Shin laying into DBS hard, after she complains about GF's refusal to claim.
I have a real hard time grokking this as a town mentality, also. I know my own reaction, 100%, after seeing GF flip was a mental facepalm exactly in line with DBS' sentiments. He should have claimed.
Nothing wrong with DBS's reaction here, she's just a convenient target for the scum, same as me, because you can point a finger at her easily for her role in the CFD. And then just hope everyone ignores all her town tells. Unified scum strategy here, with Iso.
Quote from Shin »
@bold thats pure wine if I say so myself
-So you dont think we should be looking at you or DBS for basically leading the train on gf?
-This theory of yourselfs is super hypothetical, also how do you know LW is a mislycnh?
There's wine, and then there's common sense. If you have a high-value target as scum like a town-aligned iso, you take it. I didn't take it. That means something. Whatever credit you could expect to get from that move, is outweighed by taking Iso off the table if he were actually town. But given his total absence of concern with scum-hunting...
And then he pushes the lynch on DBS again, too. Pure chain mislynch mining move.
I've got 22 more pages of this to go, if you guys want me to. But my mind is pretty well made up.
Summary:
-Shin makes a comment in line with sympathizing how difficult this game must be for the scum who are posting actively
-Shin points out that scum gravediggers exist, in an effort to undermine Phoenix, then doubles down and calls it the "perfect" role for scum
-Shin demonstrates pattern of being overly preoccupied with defending weak attacks
-Shin glosses over Jenna's issues in order to point out how DBS is supposed to be even worse - without being unhappy or suspicious with Jenna's similarly problematic and diffcult to read behaviors. Implicates, if DBS town and Shin/Jenna are aligned,as theorized.
-Shin states that he completely trusts Iso, enough to lock a lynch on Az. Where is this level of confidence coming from?? What has Iso done to merit that?
-Following D1, Shin attacks DBS early, trying to pin the blame on her for the GF lynch. Reads heavily of scum trying to build off the prior days events to chain mislynches of town. His reaction to DBS complaining about GF's (awful) refusal to claim is completely out of keeping with the sickening feeling of frustration I think most townies felt upon seeing that role revealed, where there really was no reason for him not to claim it. Iso tried to do exactly the same to me, at the same time period.
There's more, but I'm out of time for now. Kill this guy - he's NOT town, and it has major implications for Iso and Jenna.
I modified question 2 to be more applicable. Please take these in the calm, rational sentiment in which they were intended and not fly off the wall like you did when I responded to your D2.
1 Probably a loaded question, but do you think there is a world where me, dawn, and shin are all town?
2. What about me is townie to you?
3. What do you think of Osie's push on me...
4. Do you still want Az to die today?
1. Sure. I think it's unlikely, but possible. All three of you have some combination of points for or against you. Shin has the most town points and very few scum points, you have the most scum points and a small handful of town points.
2. I like your frustration in a few posts. I like that you're generally sticking by your convictions. Outside of your "Stop focusing me" posts and a few other things here and there, I like that you seem to be actively trying to enjoy things despite people putting pressure on you.
3. It's a matter of most forms of analysis I've used on you and particular posts around the times when I've been more active in my scumread screaming out at me. The "Stop focusing me" or "Why are you still focusing me" phrasing bothers me a lot. It looks like you're hoping that you can just cover your ears and bat people away.
4. Yes. If an Az lynch was possible, I'd lynch Az over you. The only reasoning I could see for lynching you over Az is the claim confirmation idea I got from Terry's post or based on the general idea of Az being a more experienced player. That said, the latter kinda contributes to my scumread of Az a little, and has a decreasing factor on my scumread of you a little. But yeah, Az would probably be my first choice.
Since you don't want to try to convince me that Last is town, can you at least try to convince me that Shin is scum? I'm not really seeing a case on either of them from you, and I'm significantly more willing to believe that Shin is scum than I am to believe that Last is town or Phoenix is scum.
I've already explained my townread on Last: his scummy behavior was neutral to me, but that early D1 tie was enough to give him a townlean. must I repeat myself everytime?
as for Shin, the way he brought up a potential counterclaim late, besides hammering a townread of his, doesn't look good.
I hated voting for Grapefruit, and I hated voting for Iso. I felt that I was forced into both by scum!Az and your jumps off of the leading wagon just before a lynch would happen are a significant part (though not the only significant part) of why I feel wrong putting you any higher than null at this time.
then why do you want to question my posts more than, say, Tom/LnG/Killjoy? it will lead nowhere if I'm a neutral/townlean for you.
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Your posts are often hard to read, and questioning you to get a better read on you is more productive than questioning someone who I have a more solid read on.
Last is least likely, or even capable, of tampering with his meta since he has much to learn....which also explains his heavy reliance on meta, since he's not familiar with the tampering possibilities.
I don't rely on meta, and I do a number of different things in my different games… And I've played roughly the same number of games on forums as Last has played, if I remember correctly. I think you might just be underestimating Last, which could be exactly what he wants you to do in this context.
~~~~~~~~~~
@Killjoy:
There's a record of this that both of us can look at, but I'm not giving exact times in thread. Post #28 was posted around 4 PM EST on 11/9. By the time you posted #29, after 2 AM EST on 11/10, I had sent a betray message into Bur. I had gotten confirmation on betrayal a little bit after the deadline of 11:59 EST on 11/9. Hence why I posted #30, around 2:30 AM EST 11/10. None of these times are exact, but they're all close enough.
#2: DO NOT quote any private message (Role PM or QT message). Please paraphrase instead. This is a modkillable offence.
To actually paraphrase what I actually said:
"You could be town from this chat."
in post #24. In posts #25, #27 and #28, I expressed other concerns. Post #29 was more than a couple hours after the Night deadline, of 11:59 PM EST.
As for attributing something incorrectly, this counts, I guess, though I didn't think "Where is this even coming from?" when reading it. I'll have to look through your earlier posts over break.
That said, lynch all liars is a good enough reason as any to:
Um...no? I claimed under 0 pressure to do so because I wanted you lynched at the time. What is this revisionist history you're touting?
Quote from Azrael »
If you have a high-value target as scum like a town-aligned iso, you take it. I didn't take it. That means something. Whatever credit you could expect to get from that move, is outweighed by taking Iso off the table if he were actually town. But given his total absence of concern with scum-hunting...
"I didn't take the high-value target of Iso, which means something. Except he's not scumhunting, which lowers the value of Iso as a target if I am scum. BUT IT TOTALLY MEANS SOMETHING!"
~Az, 2017
I'm at a loss for words for how we haven't lynched this guy, yet.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
First off: @Mods: Can we maybe get an extenstion so that the deadline doesn't fall on American Thanksgiving? Most of the people I know are going out of town that day.
@Pheonix: I will try. There's about a 1 in 100 chance that it it won't help.
I'll just claim.
I am Snake, Progressive JOAT. I started with, and still have, 3BP.
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
At 7BP, I unlock the ability to give people half my BP when I die.
At 9BP I get an ability that allows me to target someone and I learn all of their targets this game. (Not in order, but just a list of all of their targets.) This is the ability I'd like to use on you, Pheonix. However, if there's only one kill a day it only makes you look like the scum who performed the kill every night.
As such, I have a request: I'd like someone to either Roleblock Pheonix at some point prior to me using this ability, or (more preferably) a vig shoot someone who they think is scummy. Having two people die in one night with your ability targeting both people should prove your innocence.
@LngrrR: I'm willing to vote any of the people on the list.
Tom is just tilting me right now by pretending he doesn't know what I'm asking him, but no one seems to care since apparently ignorance is not malice, so it's fine.
Jenna handled her role weird. As a tracker, she had info on exactly ONE person's night actions. But even after Pheonix told what he had to tell, she still asked for more info from other people.
ya my vote is locked on Osie, if you want to tell me his behavior is of town, then fine, but im not changing my vote... and if you want to vote me, thats also fine...
Osie
You've been town hunting to be honest...
At least lynch Killjoy before Osieorb in that case. How do you reconcile a world where Killjoy is town and Osieorb is mafia?
Which I dislike solely because I know I'm town and think Osie is scum and this feels like she's pushing me over Osie BECAUSE I'm town. I can't prove that, obviously. It's a perspective thing.
@tom: Lets try a different thing: List all the reasons you think I'm scum, then make some effort to prove them. You've basically just been atrributing things to me and just... not proving them.
@Osie: When I said you literally said that, I was referring to in THIS thread, when you said I was null. Not the neighbor chat.
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
You sure are quick to jump up my ******** for that though.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@LnGrrR: Another theory re: Jenna... maybe the Scum have a Watcher, targeted DV. She knows Phoenix (and presumably others) targeted DV and since he "lied" about that, revealed him and tried to lynch him.
No one else admitted to it though, which puts a kink in that theory. Presumably someone less townie also "lied" about targeting DV, so why would she not go after them? It COULD be a bold "kill the really townie townie" play, but that's... bold.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Tbh id rather not have this game revolve around my flip, Im kinda afraid of the nonsensical battles that are gonna come from my flip... but since I have yet to be mislynched, I wonder if some magical force will save me at L-2 again, if it happens again haha...
If scum were on my train day 1, I doubt that they were the first to move off, and that some probably were still there... hmm, probably should go look at that again...
My point was that scum detracted from your lynch and saved their scum buddy (you).
Except like a hundreds time before, I am not scum, SO I AM TRYING TO FIND THE REAL REASON FOR WHY THEY MOVED OFF ME... lol
This is awful. There are so many obv-scum we're not killing. I don't even know why you guys are after KJ. If I wasn't travelling for thanksgiving, I'd be swamping this thread with angry PBPAs.
Both these wagons are complete and total garbage. If you won't do Jenna or Iso today, get Shin.
I doubt they're having an easy time since this game activity is over the top.
I do agree however the players should work together more, but your way of thinking hasnt helped either. How you expected people to just leave your claim alone, or how you just expected people to just accept the vig claim. Or how you expect people to read last based on the meta you've shown.
Dislike this bit where Shin comments that he thinks the scum aren't having an easy time.
If he's town, what's his basis for that? Is he feeling the strain of having to stay convincing while being that active? If you'd have asked me, I'd have thought that the scum were mostly having an easy time stalling us out and letting us just mill around aimlessly, but having said that, I can see how one of the more active scum posters might feel that way. But IDK that that's the kind of observation that naturally occurs to a town player.
Quote from shin »
Ok this I unerstand, but i still the possibility exists I mean ive seem scum grave diggers before.
*Frowns* Some weak role analysis shade here.
If you're going to engage in mod-gaming, you should at least say something more obnoxious and useful like "in what world are there two town roleblockers?" If you're going to go there.
Quote from shin »
Weird that you bring this up, yet were ok with me claiming in the first place. So i guess comparing your crap of a claim to my claim prob makes you feel better. I also assume since my role isnt as provable as yours, you're ok lynching me. Am I right
Few different times Shin has seemed a tad too preoccupied with defending fairly weak attacks. Minor issue only.
Quote from shin »
Nothing honestly could stop him from being mafia, I mean this role is the perfect claim to give to a scum aligned player.
Well, that's a serious exaggeration. The "perfect role" for scum?
Quote from shin »
How so? If I was desperate I would have pushed him during the entirety of day 1 I would not have started now. No its not in towns best interests its in your best interests because thats your flawed way of saying this guy must be scum he only does this when hes scum.
Where did i imply my skill level was better?
Not great conviction in the defense here. That's a tone read, not a complaint about the content, which is unremarkable.
Quote from shin »
Want me to full claim ill do it right now.
Also no i clarified I misread my own role the same as ISO I thought the (4) was X shots I didnt realize the (4) was the cost of ab to use my ability.
Hmm. This makes the claim timing far more understandable.
Quote from shin »
Meta is flawed, so no reason I would ever buy the arguement. Literally just spent an hour talking to someone about the flaws of meta gaming and we both agreed that its a screwed up way to play.
Ik my brother personality wise I know he thinks and I know why he does his actions. As scum he makes stupid stupid mistakes like fake claiming a dumb role lol. Does not mean i should read my brother as scu everytime he claims an over the top role like @DBS expects me too.
Focus at this point in time is on plentiful back and forth on meta with DBS here, little else.
Quote from shin »
Are you counter claiming her? If not then calm your ***** lol. Most people considered a townie who doesnt claim when on the verge of being lynched as game throwing. So to compare that to Jenna actions is not right.
If you think shes distracting us, then what about DBS she literally made the town run around for 5 days tring to figure out her full claim.
Here's my issue with the mentality here. He's not upset about any of Jenna's legitimate issues here - he's simply pointing to another player who he thinks has done something worse. There are reasons, as town, to not be happy with either. But the mentality here is straight deflection, from one target, to another. Particularly if DBS is town and Shin and Jenna are aligned per current theory, dislike.
Quote from shin »
I love this post from iso, i honestly trust him enough plus my own read on az to say we should just lock a lynch on him.
Undue certainty tell. And undue trust. I have no idea what Iso has done to inspire that much trust from Shin. Other than tell him what to do in scum-chat, anyways.
Quote from shin »
Guess you must be scum then
Guess? That's not town phrasing.
Quote from shin »
And here you go being scummy again lol, was waiting for a post like this. Your literally turning all the fault onto GF when you literally were one of the people that pushed for his lynch harder? This what happens when people rely on claims. What do you think would have happened if he claimed? Did you just want to keep pushing people till a mass claim happened you make no sense.
Also Gf saw no reason to claim don't make it look like thats some kind of playstyle difference, you could have chosen to not claim guess what though u would have prob been lynched as well.
Yet again putting yourself as something other than town is scummy. How did it help them get cop? Find in the thread where DV soft claimed cop? Or even remotely bread crumbed it, then you can tell me that his death was on us.
Btw i don't even remotely believe you were betrayed.
Vote: Dawn
Believe 2 of the scum are you and azreal.
Also since when do u town shame?
Shin laying into DBS hard, after she complains about GF's refusal to claim.
I have a real hard time grokking this as a town mentality, also. I know my own reaction, 100%, after seeing GF flip was a mental facepalm exactly in line with DBS' sentiments. He should have claimed.
Nothing wrong with DBS's reaction here, she's just a convenient target for the scum, same as me, because you can point a finger at her easily for her role in the CFD. And then just hope everyone ignores all her town tells. Unified scum strategy here, with Iso.
Quote from Shin »
@bold thats pure wine if I say so myself
-So you dont think we should be looking at you or DBS for basically leading the train on gf?
-This theory of yourselfs is super hypothetical, also how do you know LW is a mislycnh?
There's wine, and then there's common sense. If you have a high-value target as scum like a town-aligned iso, you take it. I didn't take it. That means something. Whatever credit you could expect to get from that move, is outweighed by taking Iso off the table if he were actually town. But given his total absence of concern with scum-hunting...
And then he pushes the lynch on DBS again, too. Pure chain mislynch mining move.
I've got 22 more pages of this to go, if you guys want me to. But my mind is pretty well made up.
Summary:
-Shin makes a comment in line with sympathizing how difficult this game must be for the scum who are posting actively
-Shin points out that scum gravediggers exist, in an effort to undermine Phoenix, then doubles down and calls it the "perfect" role for scum
-Shin demonstrates pattern of being overly preoccupied with defending weak attacks
-Shin glosses over Jenna's issues in order to point out how DBS is supposed to be even worse - without being unhappy or suspicious with Jenna's similarly problematic and diffcult to read behaviors. Implicates, if DBS town and Shin/Jenna are aligned,as theorized.
-Shin states that he completely trusts Iso, enough to lock a lynch on Az. Where is this level of confidence coming from?? What has Iso done to merit that?
-Following D1, Shin attacks DBS early, trying to pin the blame on her for the GF lynch. Reads heavily of scum trying to build off the prior days events to chain mislynches of town. His reaction to DBS complaining about GF's (awful) refusal to claim is completely out of keeping with the sickening feeling of frustration I think most townies felt upon seeing that role revealed, where there really was no reason for him not to claim it. Iso tried to do exactly the same to me, at the same time period.
There's more, but I'm out of time for now. Kill this guy - he's NOT town, and it has major implications for Iso and Jenna.
again who are these obvious scum? and when you do an Iso arent u suppose to be unbiased? there was nothing you liked about shin? Now I see what people saw when they said the way you poked at grape was manipulative...
and when you do an Iso arent u suppose to be unbiased?
Azrael is always biased when he does me.
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I'm trying to parse Killjoy's reaction, here. I can't tell if he's town angry that he's getting run up, or scum angry that his buddy/buddies are jumping on him.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I am Snake, Progressive JOAT. I started with, and still have, 3BP.
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
At 7BP, I unlock the ability to give people half my BP when I die.
At 9BP I get an ability that allows me to target someone and I learn all of their targets this game. (Not in order, but just a list of all of their targets.) This is the ability I'd like to use on you, Pheonix. However, if there's only one kill a day it only makes you look like the scum who performed the kill every night.
As such, I have a request: I'd like someone to either Roleblock Pheonix at some point prior to me using this ability, or (more preferably) a vig shoot someone who they think is scummy. Having two people die in one night with your ability targeting both people should prove your innocence.
You have not said whether these abilities you "unlock" cost any BP to use and/or how much, vs. these being "threshold" levels at which point you can use the abilitiy freely. That's rather relevant.
Also, please name the abilities.
I am doing some checking.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
again who are these obvious scum? and when you do an Iso arent u suppose to be unbiased? there was nothing you liked about shin? Now I see what people saw when they said the way you poked at grape was manipulative...
On the actual PBPA, I did note one or two things that were positives for Shin. But he has 28 pages of posts. so I'm picking the posts that are most relevant, either for or against him, and leaving out a bunch of the filler that doesn't give me any reads one way or another. Also bear in mind this is my cliff notes summary before I run out the door to vacation, so my cliff notes summary isn't highlighting the one or two glimmers of light in his history, because they're far outweighed by everything else.
I also pointed out any positives I saw for Grape on his PBPA. I remember that being more of a factor on Lngrr, than Grape - I don't know that I saw much for Grape that appeared favorable. Lngrr's PBPA was one of my PPBAs where I argued myself out of an attack, based on the explanations surrounding his claim making sense.
In the post you quoted, I'm calling for Iso and Jenna to die, in addition to Shin.
@Osie: When I said you literally said that, I was referring to in THIS thread, when you said I was null. Not the neighbor chat.
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
Seriously? I've already explained that Null for me is that someone could go either way. Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop lying.
That phrase was very much not literally said, as you know, and as everyone else knows since it would lead to a modkill from Rule #2:
To actually paraphrase what I actually said:
"You could be town from this chat."
Osie, just....*sigh*. This town is doomed.
Lynch all liars? Really? Applied to that? Minor discrepancies != lies.
Saying that I ever recently thought or said about Killjoy "I'm not scumreading you anymore" is just false.
So that leaves us with 2 revisionist overwrought-production scumteam members (Killjoy, Azrael), 1 overly-defensive scumteam member (Lastwhisper), and 1 other person.
At this point, between tinfoils and reads, that last person is in Dawning/Iso/Jenna/Terry/Tom.
I will not vote for any lynch outside of Killjoy/Last/Azrael for the rest of toDay without an extreme scumslip from another player.
Just vote me so I can show you how wrong ur read lists are... lol (is this scummy behavior? Yes. Do I care? No.) vote: Osie since trains constantly move and all of a sudden pheonix deserves a chance, I guess ill go back to my other scum lean...
I feel like this game has just become a battle of who can manipulate who first...
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My assumption with a role like Killjoy is claiming is that you would want to amass as much BP as you possibly could ASAP. He can virtually never get to his higher levels without betraying someone, and that does nothing unless the someone is allying him also. So the questions are (1) how did he play it, and (2) is his play consistent with having this role period.
It's been pointed out already (I think) that KJ kind of hinted at a killing role very early on in this game. Opening his first post with "Hello future victims" and then referring to himself as a "town aligned murderer." It's not damning, but they are strange things to say when you don't have a killing role.
Killjoy does note fairly early on that he wants to gain points.
But in his first big reads post his comments re: who he would betray at night are that he would betray his scum reads and then decide on the fly about everyone else. I kind of feel like, when LnGrrr was talking about the the theory of Betray or not Betray and suggesting that Town shouldn't betray, Killjoy might have wanted to voice some stronger opposition to that idea. Or at weigh in in some way. But Killjoy really has nothing to say about the theory of Ally/Betray.
I see where he does say later that he does not feel that Betray is automatically a scumtell. But, somewhat interestingly, he classifies Betray as the "defensive" option, that keeps you from dying to someone else's betray. He does not point out or seem to be considering the BP gaining aspect of it, which, it seems to me, would be the primary reason to betray, particularly if you had a role like his.
Okay, this is interesting, when DBS claimed - and claimed that her RB requires her to have 3 BP, and that her vig. shot required her to have 1 BP, Killjoy's response what to ask "are you sure this doesn't mean that your abilities COST (in caps) 3/1 BP?" Supposedly, Killjoy has abilities that also have thresholds. This claim ought to have been easier for him to comprehend that for those of us who's abilities do not work that way. Why would Killjoy, with this role, seem to be making this assumption?
And then there was his response to Jenna's claim. Remember Jenna claimed Watcher (or I guess she said she Watched what happened to DV or something that was in essence a Watcher claim). KJ's response - despite his previous statements that he thought PF looked Townie, and despite, you know BEING A WATCHER - is to insta-vote PF.
And here I have a real problem, because I do not see that coming from Town Killjoy who also has a Watcher ability. Yes, I see where he has specified (somewhat conveniently) that his Watcher ability is 1-shot, so I imagine he would argue he didn't feel this was a straight-up counter claim situation. But really? No hesitation? No questioning? No doubts of this "Watcher" claim from Jenna? I'm not buying it.
Humorously, Killjoy claims he missed the part where Jenna actually claimed Tracker instead of Watcher, but STILL auto-voted for PF anyway under the assumption that Jenna was claiming Watcher. Says he missed that part because reading on his phone, but just made an assumption. That whole excuse never sat well with me in the first place.
I also feel that Town KJ says more to Osie in chat about the fact he will be betraying him, but partly because he needs BP and not simply because he's still scum-reading him.
Then we get to the part not very long ago where Killjoy claims that if he gets to enough BP he can "prove" if Phoenix is telling the truth. He now suddenly starts hinting a lot more about his abilities. This is fairly meaningless. I also note that he seems to be referring to his 9 BP ability and skipping over the fact that he 5 BP "Watch" ability can also "prove" if Phoenix is telling the truth if he is fortunate enough to watch whoever gets NK. He will either see one person who is not phoenix target, and Phoenix is lying. Or he will see two people target and Phoenix is telling the truth. Not a "guarantee", but then again, neither is the 9 BP one technically.
So, long story short. Not unvoting.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I am Snake, Progressive JOAT. I started with, and still have, 3BP.
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
At 7BP, I unlock the ability to give people half my BP when I die.
At 9BP I get an ability that allows me to target someone and I learn all of their targets this game. (Not in order, but just a list of all of their targets.) This is the ability I'd like to use on you, Pheonix. However, if there's only one kill a day it only makes you look like the scum who performed the kill every night.
As such, I have a request: I'd like someone to either Roleblock Pheonix at some point prior to me using this ability, or (more preferably) a vig shoot someone who they think is scummy. Having two people die in one night with your ability targeting both people should prove your innocence.
You have not said whether these abilities you "unlock" cost any BP to use and/or how much, vs. these being "threshold" levels at which point you can use the abilitiy freely. That's rather relevant.
Also, please name the abilities.
I am doing some checking.
My abilities are as follows:
Passive: Compensation. I have no abilities to begin with, but eventually get abilities when I hit certain BP.
At 5 I get the 1 shot watch, which is called Heightened Senses.
At 7 is the "when I die" ability, called Impactful Death
At 9 I get the "learn all targets" thing, called Shedding Light on the Truth.
All abilities are 1-shot, and cost no BP to use. But being 1-shot, I can only use them once.
@Osie: When I said you literally said that, I was referring to in THIS thread, when you said I was null. Not the neighbor chat.
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
Seriously? I've already explained that Null for me is that someone could go either way. Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop lying.
And redefining terms to suit your needs does not mean others need to accept those definitions.
Null means (even by your definition) that you are not currently scumreading someone (or townreading them) without speaking to what their alignment COULD be. Obviously null is not saying you think they have no alignment. But to say that Null means that you're still scumreading me is ludicrous.
That's what Lean Scum/Town is for.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Your "7" cost ability doesn't make any sense, Killjoy. When exactly are you giving away your BP?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
My assumption with a role like Killjoy is claiming is that you would want to amass as much BP as you possibly could ASAP. He can virtually never get to his higher levels without betraying someone, and that does nothing unless the someone is allying him also. So the questions are (1) how did he play it, and (2) is his play consistent with having this role period.
It's been pointed out already (I think) that KJ kind of hinted at a killing role very early on in this game. Opening his first post with "Hello future victims" and then referring to himself as a "town aligned murderer." It's not damning, but they are strange things to say when you don't have a killing role.
Again with this.
Ok so Zero Escape is a game about murder. That, and puzzles. But mostly murder. At the point this game had started, I had finished 999 and I believe was about halfway through VLR. So I had a good idea of this.
I will reiterate: I do not have a killing role. I never have.
Killjoy does note fairly early on that he wants to gain points.
But in his first big reads post his comments re: who he would betray at night are that he would betray his scum reads and then decide on the fly about everyone else. I kind of feel like, when LnGrrr was talking about the the theory of Betray or not Betray and suggesting that Town shouldn't betray, Killjoy might have wanted to voice some stronger opposition to that idea. Or at weigh in in some way. But Killjoy really has nothing to say about the theory of Ally/Betray.
I see where he does say later that he does not feel that Betray is automatically a scumtell. But, somewhat interestingly, he classifies Betray as the "defensive" option, that keeps you from dying to someone else's betray. He does not point out or seem to be considering the BP gaining aspect of it, which, it seems to me, would be the primary reason to betray, particularly if you had a role like his.
Everything I said about betray is true. And yes, the quickest way to achieve my abilities are Betraying twice. But that doesn't mean I want to take BP from my townreads without permission. Other Town have abilities too that they need BP to use (Or just need BP to not die) so taking it from them if they can't afford it makes no sense.
If I'm scumreading someone, then sure. They can give me all their BP for all I care.
Okay, this is interesting, when DBS claimed - and claimed that her RB requires her to have 3 BP, and that her vig. shot required her to have 1 BP, Killjoy's response what to ask "are you sure this doesn't mean that your abilities COST (in caps) 3/1 BP?" Supposedly, Killjoy has abilities that also have thresholds. This claim ought to have been easier for him to comprehend that for those of us who's abilities do not work that way. Why would Killjoy, with this role, seem to be making this assumption?
Because of the way DBS said it.
And then there was his response to Jenna's claim. Remember Jenna claimed Watcher (or I guess she said she Watched what happened to DV or something that was in essence a Watcher claim). KJ's response - despite his previous statements that he thought PF looked Townie, and despite, you know BEING A WATCHER - is to insta-vote PF.
Yeah, because being watched and being the only person who targeted the nightkill is fairly definitive. And I said that asking everyone if they targeted DV then voting who I caught would be how I handled watching the nightkill target if I had watched him.
And here I have a real problem, because I do not see that coming from Town Killjoy who also has a Watcher ability. Yes, I see where he has specified (somewhat conveniently) that his Watcher ability is 1-shot, so I imagine he would argue he didn't feel this was a straight-up counter claim situation. But really? No hesitation? No questioning? No doubts of this "Watcher" claim from Jenna? I'm not buying it.
The "somewhat conveiently" here makes me think you're either confbiasing town or scum trying to paint me. Haven't decided which.
But no. No hesitation. Again, that's how I would have handled a successful watch shot. Pretty much exactly.
And yeah, why would I tell the scum that I am investigative without having enough reasonable doubt that Jenna isn't? And Watcher/1-shot watcher can exist in this complexity.
I dislike that part of this is presuming my argument and trying to discredit it.
Humorously, Killjoy claims he missed the part where Jenna actually claimed Tracker instead of Watcher, but STILL auto-voted for PF anyway under the assumption that Jenna was claiming Watcher. Says he missed that part because reading on his phone, but just made an assumption. That whole excuse never sat well with me in the first place.
How many times do I have to say "That's how I would have handled Watcher." It makes no sense as a tracker. Why would I assume otherwise?
I also feel that Town KJ says more to Osie in chat about the fact he will be betraying him, but partly because he needs BP and not simply because he's still scum-reading him.
Ok. And? What's your point? He knew I was betraying him. And I knew he was betraying me. I tried to convince him to ally, but he didn't go for it.
Then we get to the part not very long ago where Killjoy claims that if he gets to enough BP he can "prove" if Phoenix is telling the truth. He now suddenly starts hinting a lot more about his abilities. This is fairly meaningless. I also note that he seems to be referring to his 9 BP ability and skipping over the fact that he 5 BP "Watch" ability can also "prove" if Phoenix is telling the truth if he is fortunate enough to watch whoever gets NK. He will either see one person who is not phoenix target, and Phoenix is lying. Or he will see two people target and Phoenix is telling the truth. Not a "guarantee", but then again, neither is the 9 BP one technically.
So, long story short. Not unvoting.
The watch proves nothing. It only proves what the track proved: That Pheonix is targeting people. Also it reqires me to correctly guess the nightkill, which I'm not really good enough to do.
But yeah, the 9BP one isn't definitive but that's why I requested a roleblock/vig shot. If two people die in one night, it proves his ability. If he's roleblocked one day, and I still see a target on the dead guys, it proves his ability.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I also feel that Town KJ says more to Osie in chat about the fact he will be betraying him, but partly because he needs BP and not simply because he's still scum-reading him.
Ok. And? What's your point? He knew I was betraying him. And I knew he was betraying me. I tried to convince him to ally, but he didn't go for it.
I also have trouble believing that you were actually ignorant about the fact that the deadline had past, and this comment from you only confirms that. This just looks like another lie from scum!Killjoy.
Again with this.
Ok so Zero Escape is a game about murder. That, and puzzles. But mostly murder. At the point this game had started, I had finished 999 and I believe was about halfway through VLR. So I had a good idea of this.
I will reiterate: I do not have a killing role. I never have.
You are missing the forest from the trees here. I understand that you are not claiming to have a killing role. I'm questioning why you say what you say when you have the role you claim to have.
Tell me, in the game that I know nothing about, do the people in the game kill each other? You say it's a game about murder, and we all have these characters. Are the characters (the ones that WE are) all killing each other?
[Everything I said about betray is true. And yes, the quickest way to achieve my abilities are Betraying twice. But that doesn't mean I want to take BP from my townreads without permission. Other Town have abilities too that they need BP to use (Or just need BP to not die) so taking it from them if they can't afford it makes no sense.
If I'm scumreading someone, then sure. They can give me all their BP for all I care.
I don't know why I'm arguing with you about this, but the point is - it seems to me you would have behaved/talked differently in this game if you really had the role you are now claiming to have (and are Town).
Because of the way DBS said it.
I do not remember how DBS said it. How did how DBS say it that made you ask this question?
The "somewhat conveiently" here makes me think you're either confbiasing town or scum trying to paint me. Haven't decided which.
But no. No hesitation. Again, that's how I would have handled a successful watch shot. Pretty much exactly.
And yeah, why would I tell the scum that I am investigative without having enough reasonable doubt that Jenna isn't? And Watcher/1-shot watcher can exist in this complexity.
I dislike that part of this is presuming my argument and trying to discredit it.
That is how you would have handled a successful Watch shot that only saw 1 person target the dead guy? That's far more incriminating than what Jenna had (which is why what she did makes somewhat more sense.) It would have made way less sense for her as an actual Watcher - unless she had seen 2 people and was trying to suss out which one did it.
Whether Watcher/1-shot Watcher can "exist" is not exactly the point. The question is whether you should have been more skeptical. Seems to me you should have been. And you don't have to "tell" the scum anything to express skepticism or doubt, nor was I saying you should have. Strawman?
How many times do I have to say "That's how I would have handled Watcher." It makes no sense as a tracker. Why would I assume otherwise?
You would only handle Watcher this way if you had seen two people. Yes?
Ok. And? What's your point? He knew I was betraying him. And I knew he was betraying me. I tried to convince him to ally, but he didn't go for it.
It does not sound like this was a particularly big part of your conversation.
The watch proves nothing. It only proves what the track proved: That Pheonix is targeting people. Also it reqires me to correctly guess the nightkill, which I'm not really good enough to do.
But yeah, the 9BP one isn't definitive but that's why I requested a roleblock/vig shot. If two people die in one night, it proves his ability. If he's roleblocked one day, and I still see a target on the dead guys, it proves his ability.
If you were to see two people target the dead guy and 1 is Phoenix then I'm calling that "proved," unless the other guy has a very good explanation. Yes, it would be a lucky break to happen. Your native ability to guess correctly isn't at issue. Getting you to 9 BP and then coordinating this kind of effort is so ridiculous and long term a plan that it's just silly for you to even suggest it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I also feel that Town KJ says more to Osie in chat about the fact he will be betraying him, but partly because he needs BP and not simply because he's still scum-reading him.
Ok. And? What's your point? He knew I was betraying him. And I knew he was betraying me. I tried to convince him to ally, but he didn't go for it.
I also have trouble believing that you were actually ignorant about the fact that the deadline had past, and this comment from you only confirms that. This just looks like another lie from scum!Killjoy.
the deadline was when he closed the chat. Pretending otherwise is the lie.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You are missing the forest from the trees here. I understand that you are not claiming to have a killing role. I'm questioning why you say what you say when you have the role you claim to have.
Tell me, in the game that I know nothing about, do the people in the game kill each other? You say it's a game about murder, and we all have these characters. Are the characters (the ones that WE are) all killing each other?
Yes. In varying degrees, in the three games, yes.
After you meet all the characters in 999, one of the characters tricks another into getting killed (Via the rules, but it was murder because the trickster knew that the other would die) and that's in the first like... hour.
In ZTD, the first decision you make (after a coin flip which is irrelevent here) is whether to kill 3 people with a vote. Then there's a whole acid shower button choice.
So yeah. Lots of murder.
I don't know why I'm arguing with you about this, but the point is - it seems to me you would have behaved/talked differently in this game if you really had the role you are now claiming to have (and are Town).
Im ean, I guess we have to agree to disagree here then?
I do not remember how DBS said it. How did how DBS say it that made you ask this question?
I also do not remember exactly how he said it. And I don't have time to look. I might have time tonight after work.
That is how you would have handled a successful Watch shot that only saw 1 person target the dead guy? That's far more incriminating than what Jenna had (which is why what she did makes somewhat more sense.) It would have made way less sense for her as an actual Watcher - unless she had seen 2 people and was trying to suss out which one did it.
Whether Watcher/1-shot Watcher can "exist" is not exactly the point. The question is whether you should have been more skeptical. Seems to me you should have been. And you don't have to "tell" the scum anything to express skepticism or doubt, nor was I saying you should have. Strawman?
Yes it would have been. That was my initial thought, and why I snapvoted Pheonix. I assumed that she had more info than that. I seem to have been wrong.
I had a feeling there were more investigatives in this game. I'm not the only one. That's unlikely.
You would only handle Watcher this way if you had seen two people. Yes?
Yes, which I assumed she had.
If I assumed one target, Tracker would be my first thought/
It does not sound like this was a particularly big part of your conversation.
It was not. Most of our convo was trying to figure out each other's alignment.
If you were to see two people target the dead guy and 1 is Phoenix then I'm calling that "proved," unless the other guy has a very good explanation. Yes, it would be a lucky break to happen. Your native ability to guess correctly isn't at issue. Getting you to 9 BP and then coordinating this kind of effort is so ridiculous and long term a plan that it's just silly for you to even suggest it.
Again that requires me sucessfully figuring out who the scum will kill. I can't even figure out who's town when their alive, let alone who will die.
Silly, sure. But I'm saying it CAN. If I get to that point, then I will. If not, then... *shrug*
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I had a feeling there were more investigatives in this game. I'm not the only one. That's unlikely.
You mean, besides the dead DV....
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
things of note:
- scumteam having AB limitations while town have BP costs/thresholds sounds plausible.
- Osie/Shin have abilities that are limited by AB.
- not sure with Phoenix. passing of ability sounds more like a scum-to-town reward, not a town-to-scum. lack of BP limitations matches above theory.
- Shin has Osie in his scumreads but sides him the most. a contradiction.
- I stand by gamestate reads, they're the least likely to change or fail. at this point, only gamestate reads (to save my sanity).
readlist
town:
Last - D1 tie (gamestate read). simple enough to sort out quickly.
Terry - D1 tie (gamestate read). calculations that are absolutely town-motivated.
Killjoy - attention never broke down, goes along with D1 tie (gamestate read). actively thinks.
Iso - attention on Iso/Azrael clears (dicey/late gamestate read). BP Taker is good info. meta is questionable but nothing outside of less aggression.
Azrael - attention on Iso/Azrael clears (dicey/late gamestate read). transparent enough. doubt his scumgame can be this daring, given the 'crazy uncle' playstyle.
not sure (in order):
LnG - town-flaming was townish (reaction read). behavior lines up with claim.
Jenna - gambit looks likely to come from town.
Tom - natural train of thought.
Kaba - good points and helpful posts.
Axel - recent posts are helpful.
Cyth - nothing off so far.
scum:
Shin - roleblocker counterclaim. mudflings. easy to figure out.
Osie - questions reads on him, more than look into other players. fluff. safe to say Osie/Killjoy aren't aligned.
Phoenix - reactive. frustration feels more defensive than productive.
This is awful. There are so many obv-scum we're not killing. I don't even know why you guys are after KJ. If I wasn't travelling for thanksgiving, I'd be swamping this thread with angry PBPAs.
I remember you said you led town into defeat before.. you could be wrong at times.
- Osie fits with many scumteam possibilities right now, which reeks of covert teamwork.
- Iso behaves like what I can simulate as town!Iso if aggression was toned down - he's only been less aggressive. I'll also take a gamble at gamestates this late: Iso/Azrael have had too much focus that I don't think either one is scum.
- Jenna is hard to figure out, but for now I would say town. the tracker gambit looks planned out enough to be town.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I also volunteer to be lynched if that'll guarantee us a scum lynch by the next phase: Shinichi. if I'm lucky to be NK'd: still Shinichi.
Azrael/Iso/Terry should be allied with.
Last should give BP to Iso/Azrael, whoever is most likely to survive.
not sure what else but yeah... don't intend to change my vote, or post anything, anytime soon.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Everyone who wants someone to betray/ally specifically should spell it out now. I plan on allying anyone that hasn't explicitly asked to be betrayed (ie DBS).
here's how the Day started:
reply:
Shin unvoted at #3334, Kaba voted at #3447, leaving the LW wagon at L2. I guess it wasn't a misrep...?
and @Tom
I don't think Killjoy is scum..
Be grateful, always."
If scum were on my train day 1, I doubt that they were the first to move off, and that some probably were still there... hmm, probably should go look at that again...
Because if he betrayed, he blocks LW's ability, and if I were Shin, I would want LW to prove his ability.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
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Curse PremiumKilljoy (4): Jenna Tolaria, LnGrrrR, Cythare, tomsloger
Lastwhisper (3): osieorb18, Phoenix-Fire, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
osieorb18 (1): dawningbluesky
Shinichi (1): Azrael
Azrael (1): Iso
dawningbluesky (1): Shinichi
tomsloger (1): Killjoy
Phoenix-Fire (1): Lastwhisper
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (1): Kabazame
Not voting (1): Axelrod
With 15 alive, it’s 8 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, November 23rd at 11.59 pm EST.
http://itsalmo.st/#zeroescapemafianight2
do you just... not have a process because its all made up?
is that what youre saying right now?
You are saying things about me and I'm asking for proof.
Stop avoiding it.
Also, explain to me the world in which Jenna is scum.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
i dont know what youre looking for.
on a scale of methodicalness that goes from lastwhisper to regfan, youre like a vaimes?
what is the point of this exactly?
DBS this is a bit oog, but, the simple fact is you have an offensive number of posts in this game. And I'm not even saying they are devoid of content, though they are often impenetrable or very hard to read with this particular stream-of-consciousness style of yours. You have almost singlehandedly made this game a burden on my life.
Vote: Killjoy
Both these wagons are complete and total garbage. If you won't do Jenna or Iso today, get Shin.
Case for reference:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/784906-zero-escape-mafia-day-2-unlucky-seven?page=95#c4740
Spoiled Version:
Dislike this bit where Shin comments that he thinks the scum aren't having an easy time.
If he's town, what's his basis for that? Is he feeling the strain of having to stay convincing while being that active? If you'd have asked me, I'd have thought that the scum were mostly having an easy time stalling us out and letting us just mill around aimlessly, but having said that, I can see how one of the more active scum posters might feel that way. But IDK that that's the kind of observation that naturally occurs to a town player.
*Frowns* Some weak role analysis shade here.
If you're going to engage in mod-gaming, you should at least say something more obnoxious and useful like "in what world are there two town roleblockers?" If you're going to go there.
Few different times Shin has seemed a tad too preoccupied with defending fairly weak attacks. Minor issue only.
Well, that's a serious exaggeration. The "perfect role" for scum?
Not great conviction in the defense here. That's a tone read, not a complaint about the content, which is unremarkable.
Hmm. This makes the claim timing far more understandable.
Focus at this point in time is on plentiful back and forth on meta with DBS here, little else.
Here's my issue with the mentality here. He's not upset about any of Jenna's legitimate issues here - he's simply pointing to another player who he thinks has done something worse. There are reasons, as town, to not be happy with either. But the mentality here is straight deflection, from one target, to another. Particularly if DBS is town and Shin and Jenna are aligned per current theory, dislike.
Undue certainty tell. And undue trust. I have no idea what Iso has done to inspire that much trust from Shin. Other than tell him what to do in scum-chat, anyways.
Guess? That's not town phrasing.
Shin laying into DBS hard, after she complains about GF's refusal to claim.
I have a real hard time grokking this as a town mentality, also. I know my own reaction, 100%, after seeing GF flip was a mental facepalm exactly in line with DBS' sentiments. He should have claimed.
Nothing wrong with DBS's reaction here, she's just a convenient target for the scum, same as me, because you can point a finger at her easily for her role in the CFD. And then just hope everyone ignores all her town tells. Unified scum strategy here, with Iso.
There's wine, and then there's common sense. If you have a high-value target as scum like a town-aligned iso, you take it. I didn't take it. That means something. Whatever credit you could expect to get from that move, is outweighed by taking Iso off the table if he were actually town. But given his total absence of concern with scum-hunting...
And then he pushes the lynch on DBS again, too. Pure chain mislynch mining move.
I've got 22 more pages of this to go, if you guys want me to. But my mind is pretty well made up.
Summary:
-Shin makes a comment in line with sympathizing how difficult this game must be for the scum who are posting actively
-Shin points out that scum gravediggers exist, in an effort to undermine Phoenix, then doubles down and calls it the "perfect" role for scum
-Shin demonstrates pattern of being overly preoccupied with defending weak attacks
-Shin glosses over Jenna's issues in order to point out how DBS is supposed to be even worse - without being unhappy or suspicious with Jenna's similarly problematic and diffcult to read behaviors. Implicates, if DBS town and Shin/Jenna are aligned,as theorized.
-Shin states that he completely trusts Iso, enough to lock a lynch on Az. Where is this level of confidence coming from?? What has Iso done to merit that?
-Following D1, Shin attacks DBS early, trying to pin the blame on her for the GF lynch. Reads heavily of scum trying to build off the prior days events to chain mislynches of town. His reaction to DBS complaining about GF's (awful) refusal to claim is completely out of keeping with the sickening feeling of frustration I think most townies felt upon seeing that role revealed, where there really was no reason for him not to claim it. Iso tried to do exactly the same to me, at the same time period.
There's more, but I'm out of time for now. Kill this guy - he's NOT town, and it has major implications for Iso and Jenna.
I modified question 2 to be more applicable. Please take these in the calm, rational sentiment in which they were intended and not fly off the wall like you did when I responded to your D2.
1. Sure. I think it's unlikely, but possible. All three of you have some combination of points for or against you. Shin has the most town points and very few scum points, you have the most scum points and a small handful of town points.
2. I like your frustration in a few posts. I like that you're generally sticking by your convictions. Outside of your "Stop focusing me" posts and a few other things here and there, I like that you seem to be actively trying to enjoy things despite people putting pressure on you.
3. It's a matter of most forms of analysis I've used on you and particular posts around the times when I've been more active in my scumread screaming out at me. The "Stop focusing me" or "Why are you still focusing me" phrasing bothers me a lot. It looks like you're hoping that you can just cover your ears and bat people away.
4. Yes. If an Az lynch was possible, I'd lynch Az over you. The only reasoning I could see for lynching you over Az is the claim confirmation idea I got from Terry's post or based on the general idea of Az being a more experienced player. That said, the latter kinda contributes to my scumread of Az a little, and has a decreasing factor on my scumread of you a little. But yeah, Az would probably be my first choice.
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@Dawning:
Personality is distinct from Meta. Also, I acknowledge that other people read purely based on meta. That doesn't mean I think it's a good practice.
I hated voting for Grapefruit, and I hated voting for Iso. I felt that I was forced into both by scum!Az and your jumps off of the leading wagon just before a lynch would happen are a significant part (though not the only significant part) of why I feel wrong putting you any higher than null at this time.
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Your posts are often hard to read, and questioning you to get a better read on you is more productive than questioning someone who I have a more solid read on.
I don't rely on meta, and I do a number of different things in my different games… And I've played roughly the same number of games on forums as Last has played, if I remember correctly. I think you might just be underestimating Last, which could be exactly what he wants you to do in this context.
~~~~~~~~~~
@Killjoy:
There's a record of this that both of us can look at, but I'm not giving exact times in thread. Post #28 was posted around 4 PM EST on 11/9. By the time you posted #29, after 2 AM EST on 11/10, I had sent a betray message into Bur. I had gotten confirmation on betrayal a little bit after the deadline of 11:59 EST on 11/9. Hence why I posted #30, around 2:30 AM EST 11/10. None of these times are exact, but they're all close enough.
A BLATANT LIE HAS BEEN CAUGHT HERE!
That phrase was very much not literally said, as you know, and as everyone else knows since it would lead to a modkill from Rule #2:
To actually paraphrase what I actually said:
"You could be town from this chat."
in post #24. In posts #25, #27 and #28, I expressed other concerns. Post #29 was more than a couple hours after the Night deadline, of 11:59 PM EST.
As for attributing something incorrectly, this counts, I guess, though I didn't think "Where is this even coming from?" when reading it. I'll have to look through your earlier posts over break.
That said, lynch all liars is a good enough reason as any to:
Vote: Killjoy
Um...no? I claimed under 0 pressure to do so because I wanted you lynched at the time. What is this revisionist history you're touting?
"I didn't take the high-value target of Iso, which means something. Except he's not scumhunting, which lowers the value of Iso as a target if I am scum. BUT IT TOTALLY MEANS SOMETHING!"
~Az, 2017
I'm at a loss for words for how we haven't lynched this guy, yet.
Oh, then in that case:
Unvote, Vote osi
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Pheonix: I will try. There's about a 1 in 100 chance that it it won't help.
I'll just claim.
I am Snake, Progressive JOAT. I started with, and still have, 3BP.
At 5BP, I unlock a 1-shot Watch (Which is another reason I assumed Jenna also had a watch. She reacted exactly as I would have having caught the nightkiller with my watch. I would have asked everyone to claim if they'd targeted DV just like that.)
At 7BP, I unlock the ability to give people half my BP when I die.
At 9BP I get an ability that allows me to target someone and I learn all of their targets this game. (Not in order, but just a list of all of their targets.) This is the ability I'd like to use on you, Pheonix. However, if there's only one kill a day it only makes you look like the scum who performed the kill every night.
As such, I have a request: I'd like someone to either Roleblock Pheonix at some point prior to me using this ability, or (more preferably) a vig shoot someone who they think is scummy. Having two people die in one night with your ability targeting both people should prove your innocence.
@LngrrR: I'm willing to vote any of the people on the list.
Tom is just tilting me right now by pretending he doesn't know what I'm asking him, but no one seems to care since apparently ignorance is not malice, so it's fine.
Jenna handled her role weird. As a tracker, she had info on exactly ONE person's night actions. But even after Pheonix told what he had to tell, she still asked for more info from other people.
I'm wondering if she was going to fakeclaim watcher but then changed it.
There's also this post:
@tom: Lets try a different thing: List all the reasons you think I'm scum, then make some effort to prove them. You've basically just been atrributing things to me and just... not proving them.
@Osie: When I said you literally said that, I was referring to in THIS thread, when you said I was null. Not the neighbor chat.
When you say someone is Null, that means you don't see them as scum anymore. That's what that LITERALLY means.
You sure are quick to jump up my ******** for that though.
Unvote, Vote Osie
No one else admitted to it though, which puts a kink in that theory. Presumably someone less townie also "lied" about targeting DV, so why would she not go after them? It COULD be a bold "kill the really townie townie" play, but that's... bold.
Hmm, nothing seems off about ur claim yet, but only time will tell
Bur & Crossbell
I agree with killjoy, can we move the deadline up a couple of days?
Sorry about the triple post, plz do crucify me
Azrael is always biased when he does me.
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I'm trying to parse Killjoy's reaction, here. I can't tell if he's town angry that he's getting run up, or scum angry that his buddy/buddies are jumping on him.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, please name the abilities.
I am doing some checking.
On the actual PBPA, I did note one or two things that were positives for Shin. But he has 28 pages of posts. so I'm picking the posts that are most relevant, either for or against him, and leaving out a bunch of the filler that doesn't give me any reads one way or another. Also bear in mind this is my cliff notes summary before I run out the door to vacation, so my cliff notes summary isn't highlighting the one or two glimmers of light in his history, because they're far outweighed by everything else.
I also pointed out any positives I saw for Grape on his PBPA. I remember that being more of a factor on Lngrr, than Grape - I don't know that I saw much for Grape that appeared favorable. Lngrr's PBPA was one of my PPBAs where I argued myself out of an attack, based on the explanations surrounding his claim making sense.
In the post you quoted, I'm calling for Iso and Jenna to die, in addition to Shin.
Osie, just....*sigh*. This town is doomed.
Lynch all liars? Really? Applied to that? Minor discrepancies != lies.
Seriously? I've already explained that Null for me is that someone could go either way. Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop lying.
Saying that I ever recently thought or said about Killjoy "I'm not scumreading you anymore" is just false.
So that leaves us with 2 revisionist overwrought-production scumteam members (Killjoy, Azrael), 1 overly-defensive scumteam member (Lastwhisper), and 1 other person.
At this point, between tinfoils and reads, that last person is in Dawning/Iso/Jenna/Terry/Tom.
I will not vote for any lynch outside of Killjoy/Last/Azrael for the rest of toDay without an extreme scumslip from another player.
vote: Osie since trains constantly move and all of a sudden pheonix deserves a chance, I guess ill go back to my other scum lean...
I feel like this game has just become a battle of who can manipulate who first...
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's been pointed out already (I think) that KJ kind of hinted at a killing role very early on in this game. Opening his first post with "Hello future victims" and then referring to himself as a "town aligned murderer." It's not damning, but they are strange things to say when you don't have a killing role.
Killjoy does note fairly early on that he wants to gain points.
But in his first big reads post his comments re: who he would betray at night are that he would betray his scum reads and then decide on the fly about everyone else. I kind of feel like, when LnGrrr was talking about the the theory of Betray or not Betray and suggesting that Town shouldn't betray, Killjoy might have wanted to voice some stronger opposition to that idea. Or at weigh in in some way. But Killjoy really has nothing to say about the theory of Ally/Betray.
I see where he does say later that he does not feel that Betray is automatically a scumtell. But, somewhat interestingly, he classifies Betray as the "defensive" option, that keeps you from dying to someone else's betray. He does not point out or seem to be considering the BP gaining aspect of it, which, it seems to me, would be the primary reason to betray, particularly if you had a role like his.
Okay, this is interesting, when DBS claimed - and claimed that her RB requires her to have 3 BP, and that her vig. shot required her to have 1 BP, Killjoy's response what to ask "are you sure this doesn't mean that your abilities COST (in caps) 3/1 BP?" Supposedly, Killjoy has abilities that also have thresholds. This claim ought to have been easier for him to comprehend that for those of us who's abilities do not work that way. Why would Killjoy, with this role, seem to be making this assumption?
And then there was his response to Jenna's claim. Remember Jenna claimed Watcher (or I guess she said she Watched what happened to DV or something that was in essence a Watcher claim). KJ's response - despite his previous statements that he thought PF looked Townie, and despite, you know BEING A WATCHER - is to insta-vote PF.
And here I have a real problem, because I do not see that coming from Town Killjoy who also has a Watcher ability. Yes, I see where he has specified (somewhat conveniently) that his Watcher ability is 1-shot, so I imagine he would argue he didn't feel this was a straight-up counter claim situation. But really? No hesitation? No questioning? No doubts of this "Watcher" claim from Jenna? I'm not buying it.
Humorously, Killjoy claims he missed the part where Jenna actually claimed Tracker instead of Watcher, but STILL auto-voted for PF anyway under the assumption that Jenna was claiming Watcher. Says he missed that part because reading on his phone, but just made an assumption. That whole excuse never sat well with me in the first place.
I also feel that Town KJ says more to Osie in chat about the fact he will be betraying him, but partly because he needs BP and not simply because he's still scum-reading him.
Then we get to the part not very long ago where Killjoy claims that if he gets to enough BP he can "prove" if Phoenix is telling the truth. He now suddenly starts hinting a lot more about his abilities. This is fairly meaningless. I also note that he seems to be referring to his 9 BP ability and skipping over the fact that he 5 BP "Watch" ability can also "prove" if Phoenix is telling the truth if he is fortunate enough to watch whoever gets NK. He will either see one person who is not phoenix target, and Phoenix is lying. Or he will see two people target and Phoenix is telling the truth. Not a "guarantee", but then again, neither is the 9 BP one technically.
So, long story short. Not unvoting.
Passive: Compensation. I have no abilities to begin with, but eventually get abilities when I hit certain BP.
At 5 I get the 1 shot watch, which is called Heightened Senses.
At 7 is the "when I die" ability, called Impactful Death
At 9 I get the "learn all targets" thing, called Shedding Light on the Truth.
All abilities are 1-shot, and cost no BP to use. But being 1-shot, I can only use them once.
And redefining terms to suit your needs does not mean others need to accept those definitions.
Null means (even by your definition) that you are not currently scumreading someone (or townreading them) without speaking to what their alignment COULD be. Obviously null is not saying you think they have no alignment. But to say that Null means that you're still scumreading me is ludicrous.
That's what Lean Scum/Town is for.
Tethering on the train, but I moved you down to townlean a while back, then null recently. That group of five was my nulls.
EBWODP: I have the past two pages open. I'll post something more thorough this evening about things, including responding to Phoenix's 5390.
Ok so Zero Escape is a game about murder. That, and puzzles. But mostly murder. At the point this game had started, I had finished 999 and I believe was about halfway through VLR. So I had a good idea of this.
I will reiterate: I do not have a killing role. I never have.
Everything I said about betray is true. And yes, the quickest way to achieve my abilities are Betraying twice. But that doesn't mean I want to take BP from my townreads without permission. Other Town have abilities too that they need BP to use (Or just need BP to not die) so taking it from them if they can't afford it makes no sense.
If I'm scumreading someone, then sure. They can give me all their BP for all I care.
Because of the way DBS said it.
Yeah, because being watched and being the only person who targeted the nightkill is fairly definitive. And I said that asking everyone if they targeted DV then voting who I caught would be how I handled watching the nightkill target if I had watched him.
The "somewhat conveiently" here makes me think you're either confbiasing town or scum trying to paint me. Haven't decided which.
But no. No hesitation. Again, that's how I would have handled a successful watch shot. Pretty much exactly.
And yeah, why would I tell the scum that I am investigative without having enough reasonable doubt that Jenna isn't? And Watcher/1-shot watcher can exist in this complexity.
I dislike that part of this is presuming my argument and trying to discredit it.
How many times do I have to say "That's how I would have handled Watcher." It makes no sense as a tracker. Why would I assume otherwise?
Ok. And? What's your point? He knew I was betraying him. And I knew he was betraying me. I tried to convince him to ally, but he didn't go for it.
The watch proves nothing. It only proves what the track proved: That Pheonix is targeting people. Also it reqires me to correctly guess the nightkill, which I'm not really good enough to do.
But yeah, the 9BP one isn't definitive but that's why I requested a roleblock/vig shot. If two people die in one night, it proves his ability. If he's roleblocked one day, and I still see a target on the dead guys, it proves his ability.
Like, I get killed, then give someone of my choosing half my BP (rounded down).
I also have trouble believing that you were actually ignorant about the fact that the deadline had past, and this comment from you only confirms that. This just looks like another lie from scum!Killjoy.
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Curse PremiumKilljoy (6): Jenna Tolaria, LnGrrrR, Cythare, tomsloger, Axelrod, osieorb18
osieorb18 (4): dawningbluesky, Iso, killjoy, Lastwhisper
Lastwhisper (2): Phoenix-Fire, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Shinichi (1): Azrael
dawningbluesky (1): Shinichi
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (1): Kabazame
Not voting (0)
With 15 alive, it’s 8 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, November 23rd at 11.59 pm EST.
http://itsalmo.st/#zeroescapemafianight2
Tell me, in the game that I know nothing about, do the people in the game kill each other? You say it's a game about murder, and we all have these characters. Are the characters (the ones that WE are) all killing each other?
I don't know why I'm arguing with you about this, but the point is - it seems to me you would have behaved/talked differently in this game if you really had the role you are now claiming to have (and are Town).
I do not remember how DBS said it. How did how DBS say it that made you ask this question?
That is how you would have handled a successful Watch shot that only saw 1 person target the dead guy? That's far more incriminating than what Jenna had (which is why what she did makes somewhat more sense.) It would have made way less sense for her as an actual Watcher - unless she had seen 2 people and was trying to suss out which one did it.
Whether Watcher/1-shot Watcher can "exist" is not exactly the point. The question is whether you should have been more skeptical. Seems to me you should have been. And you don't have to "tell" the scum anything to express skepticism or doubt, nor was I saying you should have. Strawman?
You would only handle Watcher this way if you had seen two people. Yes?
It does not sound like this was a particularly big part of your conversation.
If you were to see two people target the dead guy and 1 is Phoenix then I'm calling that "proved," unless the other guy has a very good explanation. Yes, it would be a lucky break to happen. Your native ability to guess correctly isn't at issue. Getting you to 9 BP and then coordinating this kind of effort is so ridiculous and long term a plan that it's just silly for you to even suggest it.
After you meet all the characters in 999, one of the characters tricks another into getting killed (Via the rules, but it was murder because the trickster knew that the other would die) and that's in the first like... hour.
In ZTD, the first decision you make (after a coin flip which is irrelevent here) is whether to kill 3 people with a vote. Then there's a whole acid shower button choice.
So yeah. Lots of murder.
Im ean, I guess we have to agree to disagree here then?
I also do not remember exactly how he said it. And I don't have time to look. I might have time tonight after work.
Yes it would have been. That was my initial thought, and why I snapvoted Pheonix. I assumed that she had more info than that. I seem to have been wrong.
I had a feeling there were more investigatives in this game. I'm not the only one. That's unlikely.
Yes, which I assumed she had.
If I assumed one target, Tracker would be my first thought/
It was not. Most of our convo was trying to figure out each other's alignment.
Again that requires me sucessfully figuring out who the scum will kill. I can't even figure out who's town when their alive, let alone who will die.
Silly, sure. But I'm saying it CAN. If I get to that point, then I will. If not, then... *shrug*
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
- scumteam having AB limitations while town have BP costs/thresholds sounds plausible.
- Osie/Shin have abilities that are limited by AB.
- not sure with Phoenix. passing of ability sounds more like a scum-to-town reward, not a town-to-scum. lack of BP limitations matches above theory.
- Shin has Osie in his scumreads but sides him the most. a contradiction.
- I stand by gamestate reads, they're the least likely to change or fail. at this point, only gamestate reads (to save my sanity).
readlist
town:
Last - D1 tie (gamestate read). simple enough to sort out quickly.
Terry - D1 tie (gamestate read). calculations that are absolutely town-motivated.
Killjoy - attention never broke down, goes along with D1 tie (gamestate read). actively thinks.
Iso - attention on Iso/Azrael clears (dicey/late gamestate read). BP Taker is good info. meta is questionable but nothing outside of less aggression.
Azrael - attention on Iso/Azrael clears (dicey/late gamestate read). transparent enough. doubt his scumgame can be this daring, given the 'crazy uncle' playstyle.
not sure (in order):
LnG - town-flaming was townish (reaction read). behavior lines up with claim.
Jenna - gambit looks likely to come from town.
Tom - natural train of thought.
Kaba - good points and helpful posts.
Axel - recent posts are helpful.
Cyth - nothing off so far.
scum:
Shin - roleblocker counterclaim. mudflings. easy to figure out.
Osie - questions reads on him, more than look into other players. fluff. safe to say Osie/Killjoy aren't aligned.
Phoenix - reactive. frustration feels more defensive than productive.
I remember you said you led town into defeat before.. you could be wrong at times.
- Osie fits with many scumteam possibilities right now, which reeks of covert teamwork.
- Iso behaves like what I can simulate as town!Iso if aggression was toned down - he's only been less aggressive. I'll also take a gamble at gamestates this late: Iso/Azrael have had too much focus that I don't think either one is scum.
- Jenna is hard to figure out, but for now I would say town. the tracker gambit looks planned out enough to be town.
Be grateful, always."
Azrael/Iso/Terry should be allied with.
Last should give BP to Iso/Azrael, whoever is most likely to survive.
not sure what else but yeah... don't intend to change my vote, or post anything, anytime soon.
Be grateful, always."
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Kabazame - Betray
tomsloger - Ally
Jenna Tolaria - Ally
lastwhisper - betray (lol)
Cythare - betray???
dawningbluesky - betray (because of her ability of course)
Iso - ally
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - ally
Azrael - ally
Killjoy - ally
LnGrrrR - ally
osieorb18 - betray
Phoenix-Fire - betray
Axelrod - ally
and I still dont know who im gunna give that 1 BP too yet
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!