Probably will be my last post for the night since I need to study for a bio exam tmr
I am not point fingers I am just listing possible people that could have this role since its not part of my role whether you believe it or not...
Possible BP Takers:
Kabazame
tomsloger (Dont think it can be tom tho, but for semantics sake, I listed him)
Cythare
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Killjoy
Axelrod
Ive only included the people that havent claimed yet...
1. I'm town and Iso is probably town. 2 killing roles aren't out of town's budget, according to Grapefruit. 1 is a minus, and 1 is a plus.
2. BP Giver and BP Taker is safely assumed to be in play. I think they're meant to support/counter the killing roles. logically, they won't be on the same faction to keep the support/counter in the balance.
3. roles: reviver(conf), cop(conf), doctor, vig, vengeful, ab analyzer, tracker, roleblocker x2, neighborizer(x), first responder(x).
- Phoenix is probably scum due to the conflicting nature of his role. his role apparently controls the flow of information.
- in terms of roleblocking, and inside information of possible closed setups (knowing Phoenix's role), Shinichi is probably scum.
- Osie hard-defending Phoenix probably means they're aligned.
not sure but for now: Phoenix/Shin/Osie.
this setup is probably not as low-powered as we thought.
scumteam probably consist of defensive/manipulative roles. neighborizer comes to mind.
missing links are missing. but yess, I'm getting the full picture!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I mean, I don't think BP taker (or giver) is AI on it own.
Could see any combination of alignments for those two roles.
IF it's not whisper with both (ftr I think he's currently my ~weakest town read)
But I do think targeting a KP claim is reasonably townie in a vacuum. Definitely how I would have used it.
I really doubt Giver/Taker would be on the same alignment if they can affect thresholds - the only ones so far being claimed killing roles. while the give/take aspect is NAI, we can safely say they aren't aligned. if Last is scum, that'll mean the other half is town, and vice versa.
I mean, he's behaviorally clean, and if he's town, the lack of flips destroys our information-gathering.
Just flip him late-game if he's still alive, and get the best of both worlds.
No, it's better for scum. Town shouldn't be concerned about roles. I'm scum reading everyone who tells me otherwise up until this point. I still don't see a good example of why it's more helpful to town than it is to scum. That opinion alone doesn't necessarily impact if the player with that ability is town or not, but I am pretty firm that it is more beneficial to scum to see role flips than it is to town. Town is used to working in a vacuum of assumption, scum use role info as a crutch and a Lynch pin to their semi-rig of destruction.
I didn't notice anything noteworthy in cyth's reads post.
I think BP Giver/Taker will be quite important to this setup, along with AB Analyzer. we don't know any other roles that are game-specific, so I'd assume these 3 are the only ones. makes sense for town to have 1 half of the BP control, with scum having the other half of it. AB Analyzer is some kind of..weak investigator role...something. can't see how else to balance the setup with BP usage, AB games, high ability costs, and thresholds.
Cyth is really townreading LnG while answering him, and townreading Osie/Phoenix despite lack of interaction.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
No, it's better for scum. Town shouldn't be concerned about roles. I'm scum reading everyone who tells me otherwise up until this point. I still don't see a good example of why it's more helpful to town than it is to scum. That opinion alone doesn't necessarily impact if the player with that ability is town or not, but I am pretty firm that it is more beneficial to scum to see role flips than it is to town. Town is used to working in a vacuum of assumption, scum use role info as a crutch and a Lynch pin to their semi-rig of destruction.
I support this. in a way. we've had enough claims outed for the game, and don't think we need any more.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
He didn't start to like me until the end of night. I didn't think he has enough time to change his decision, so I didn't change mine.
Like I've said: betray is the defensive option. I went into night scumreading him. He was the same. Short of being really convincing, we were always going to betray/betray, because he was going to betray me, and he was scumreading me so he was probably going to betray.
I'll talk more after work today
@Killjoy; @Osie: Why wouldn't one of you say something like "Hey, let's ally, and if one of us doesn't we consider it a scum claim." I'm just trying to wrap my head around how neither of you decided to push that angle; you'd both either gain a BP or catch scum, seems like a good trade to me. I just don't really get how you guys could have a neighbor chat and come up with nothing better than betray/betray while still feeling better about the other.
@Shinichi, @Dawning, @Last: for the love of all that is good and holy, can you guys stop talking about other games offsite that have zero impact on this game? It's driving me insane with the "yeah, but you flipped scum double vig, Doctor, teenage mutant ninja turtle, and I soooo called your role even though I was a vengeful jester with six cop checks." We get it, you have history, but you're not using it here with any relevance and just making this game more frustrating to read through because half the time I'm not sure if you're talking about your thoughts on each other right now or in a previous game.
Iso, can you help me find scum besides Az? Just for today, then we can lynch Az tomorrow.
This reads like a TMI on Az being town. Terry, why are you assuming Az will be alive tomorrow? And if your answer is "cause he's scum" why would he claim Doctor like he did when he'd know he couldn't make it last?
Although this makes complete sense, you realize you could become a lot more effective as a town player if you can train yourself not to be dependent on flips to interpret the game state? There is nothing more crippling than to force yourself to take the game one lynch at a time.
Az, what is your read on Osi?
@Last: What are your current thoughts on Az-Iso? Do you think they're town-town? If not, why do you want them to not be the focus?
@kj
No I think he looks pretty townie in limited minutes.
But he got tracked to the ******* night kill how hard is this
It feels like you're just being far too narrow minded; this game is about solving people and the puzzle of what happened, and it feels like you've found a piece that you want to just shove into a spot and say "Look it fits", just because it's easier. If you actually think I'm scum, then whatever, it's not my obligation to change your mind, but right now you're acting like you think I should be scum more than you actually think I am, and that's just such surface level play.
If Phoenix is indeed scum than KJ is almost definitely scum with him. Trying to argue that Occam's Razor doesn't point to Phoenix killing DV is ludicrous.
Phoenix was tracked to a dead DV. What are the explanations for this?
A) He killed DV
B) He has some crazy role no one has seen before where he passively visits every night kill victim
[Well first, we learn Phoenix alignment. With that we will learn Jenna alignment. With the extra info we can learn a lot more about interactions. Then hopefully either AZ or Jenna die at night. That's a lot more productive then lynching anyone else. If phoenix dies scum, Jenna is towntron. If phoenix flips town, we can probably still trust jenna, and all we lose is role flips. If a town is about to get lynched we claim, no big deal. It probably hurts scum as much as town.
Considering all that, do we want to go down as the town that didn't act on a tracked murdering scum if phoenix is scum and made a pretty far fetched claim?
Ps, I can't imagine a scenerio where jenna is scum and did this. Can anyone else?
As soon as I quoted this I partook in the devil's drink and am thus not capable of composing good and useful thoughts anymore. So I'm leaving it in and stopping myself here for tonight to continue in the morning.
true. then we can go with Shin. but I doubt we have enough convincing for that....
by the way, what do you think of Iso as town and Osie as scum?
I think that that is the exact opposite of the world we are actually living in and I have trouble comprehending why people have trouble reaching the same read on iso as me.
I guess in retrospect it's hard for a lot of people to believe in a case based on the absence of something being there, that shpuld be. But it is just so palpable how hard he isn't trying.
No, it's better for scum. Town shouldn't be concerned about roles. I'm scum reading everyone who tells me otherwise up until this point. I still don't see a good example of why it's more helpful to town than it is to scum. That opinion alone doesn't necessarily impact if the player with that ability is town or not, but I am pretty firm that it is more beneficial to scum to see role flips than it is to town. Town is used to working in a vacuum of assumption, scum use role info as a crutch and a Lynch pin to their semi-rig of destruction.
Does Phoenix not conceal alignment flips, or does he?
@Shinichi, @Dawning, @Last: for the love of all that is good and holy, can you guys stop talking about other games offsite that have zero impact on this game? It's driving me insane with the "yeah, but you flipped scum double vig, Doctor, teenage mutant ninja turtle, and I soooo called your role even though I was a vengeful jester with six cop checks." We get it, you have history, but you're not using it here with any relevance and just making this game more frustrating to read through because half the time I'm not sure if you're talking about your thoughts on each other right now or in a previous game.
I'm glad you're the one to address this. I've had to keep hearing/clarifying/defending off-game references ever since Grapefruit's idea of a scum vig, and could not ignore or get scumread for it. as for the recent discussions with Last, he is heavily reliant on meta, past experience....and paranoia. not sure if I can comment on it since everyone has their playstyle, but I've probably spent too much time clarifying things. my apologies if our discussion ruins your backreading. I'll refrain from answering anything in regards to meta if that will help.
I think that that is the exact opposite of the world we are actually living in and I have trouble comprehending why people have trouble reaching the same read on iso as me.
I guess in retrospect it's hard for a lot of people to believe in a case based on the absence of something being there, that shpuld be. But it is just so palpable how hard he isn't trying.
I'm not sure what Iso is lacking, but no or less activity can come from the huge amount of posts we have to sift through. and...I'm not sure if either one of you are scum, with the way things were so focused on Azrael vs Iso. do you scumread Iso based on tone? I prefer something more concrete than just tonal reads....and the closest I can get from Iso is the counterclaim/retract issue.
it's hard for me to see Osie as town... mind explaining to me how he is town? I would like to know why he's scumreading me even when I've explained myself.
Does Phoenix not conceal alignment flips, or does he?
according to what he posted, the details of a role won't be publicized when their alignment is revealed - which means alignment flips should still be around. I don't think it will be a loss to town if we lose role details, since alignments are what matter.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
@KJ, yes, the "out of nowhere" comes from someone claiming they tracked Phoenix and he just happened to visit the person who got killed last night.
Also, I have never played the game, so I have no clue if flavor is correct. Since you have, what do you think about mine? (Quark)?
But I didn't have that reaction though. I didn't jump from Tracked To The Nightkill->Probably Killed Him becasue it's not definitive. Doing so could signal an agenda of wanting to kill someone who has been very behaviorally townie.
Quark doesnt' have much on him. He's not portrayed as particularly prodigious, but he's bright, I suppose. He's just a kid.
I'm not sure your ability would fit any of the characters, TBH.
Additional: Killjoy, did you read the link you posted?
"In some games, the roles of the dead players are only revealed if the coroner(s) remains alive. In this case, it can be Mafia aligned, creating a dilemma upon revelation."
Just saying.
I did. I saw that it COULD be mafia aligned. There was a role like that in Mind Screw, iirc.
But it's generally bastardly to punish town for killing scum, and reducing info to the town on death would be doing just that.
I need to reconsider what the interactions with Tracker mean since I was likening it to Insane Cop targeting anyone, but the Insane cop is told he's insane and therefore gets to take that into account. The Tracker in this case is not told as such.
What do you mean? That the Tracker is not told if an ability is passive or active?
An Insane cop is told that their results might not be trustworthy, and therefore can take that into account in their analysis.
Tom made the point that the passiveness of Pheonix's ability screws with a tracker. The tracker would not know this exists, and therefore does not know they would not be able to trust their ability.
I need to figure out if that outweighs his behavior. It won't now, but I'll reevaluate when I know more of the setup.
Huh. I think Phoenix isn't worth pursuing today, but I might be interested in seeing what this ability gets from another player later, especially one of the players who are harder to read due to unfamiliarity.
If I can ever hit the threshold I need to hit to use it, sure.It's pretty high.
@KJ Yes, Coroner is an uncommon role. Passive coroner is pretty much unheard of as far as I know. Furthermore, typically a coroner has to pick his target so he would only get one reveal a night. Phoenix's role gets all of them and the lynch as well, while the Coroner would typically have to use his Night Action to get a flip. Also because it's a passive, I don't think you can role block it (like you can't roleblock Bulletproof) though I could be mistaken.
So his role is a lot stronger than your typical Coroner, and apparently Bur has never used a No Reveal setup before. So there are a lot of assumptions to be made in order for Phoenix to be Town. What I mean by "how does it seem legit?" is that all there really is to support his claim is that he said it. There's no precedent for this role. There is however countless examples of scum being tracked to the night kill. That's why it's the simplest explanation.
At least you do seem to be thinking about this clearly. At first I thought you were just blindly defending him but I'm starting to see a real thought process behind it now.
Just because you've never seen it before doesn't make it fake.
But yes, Pheonix's role is more powerful than your typical Coroner. Which also doesn't make it fake. But we don't have enough information to determine it's validity at this point.
It's actually a simple concept. As far as I can tell it's just either never been done before, or just hasn't been done before here. (I vaguely recall something in Mind Screw being similar but didn't have to do with reveals, it was something else). And saying that it requires 'a lot' of assumptions to make Pheonix town is wrong. It requires one: that Pheonix's role works like he said. The fact that he didn't understand that going in makes me think he's telling the truth.
Are you really saying shin is the correct play over the tracked guilty?
Being tagged by a watcher would be a lot more damning than being tagged by a tracker, with a plausible explanation and a squeaky clean behavioral record. I'm not terribly ecstatic about the role explanation and the possible mod retcon, but I think there are far superior targets from a behavioral standpoint.
This. This is part of why I assumed watcher: because she was so sure. I figured watcher because watching one person target the Nightkill is much, much different than tracking one person to it.
@KJ Yes, Coroner is an uncommon role. Passive coroner is pretty much unheard of as far as I know. Furthermore, typically a coroner has to pick his target so he would only get one reveal a night. Phoenix's role gets all of them and the lynch as well, while the Coroner would typically have to use his Night Action to get a flip. Also because it's a passive, I don't think you can role block it (like you can't roleblock Bulletproof) though I could be mistaken.
So his role is a lot stronger than your typical Coroner, and apparently Bur has never used a No Reveal setup before. So there are a lot of assumptions to be made in order for Phoenix to be Town. What I mean by "how does it seem legit?" is that all there really is to support his claim is that he said it. There's no precedent for this role. There is however countless examples of scum being tracked to the night kill. That's why it's the simplest explanation.
At least you do seem to be thinking about this clearly. At first I thought you were just blindly defending him but I'm starting to see a real thought process behind it now.
No harm in me testing that theory if hes my partner. Idc about bursamas other games, i care about this game. Only reason I dislike the claim is because its way way to convienent.
@Jenna: Why did you go with this elaborate plan of pretending to be a watcher targeting D_V? Why not just say outright that you tracked Phoenix to D_V? This seems, well, overwrought.
Like, there wasn't even a gain from someone claiming that they visited D_V for something different. Phoenix looks marginally more suspect, but he's also been one of the towniest players this entire game. It's not significant enough after his claim.
Why does it matter, the way jenna did it feels like town regardless, the fact that some people overreacted says alot aobut their own alignments.
[@LnG #5115]
Ally while Betrayed until I reach 1 BP, stay at Betray while Betrayed.
even if that person is a scumread (e.g. Iso), I will stick to the plan. anyone who tries to increase my BP and justify it later is just hindering the town, especially when I fullclaimed - it's best for town to prove my claim as soon as possible, especially when there's no vig CC.
[@Killjoy #5116]
aha! was trying to think what's the inverse of a Janitor. I rolled Coroner before~ it was in that starship game where even the vig could be scum...nothing guarantees alignment. Phoenix being unaware of his role doesn't seem fake.
hmmmmm... since Phoenix is a passive 'coroner', he's probably the neutral. a passive that serves a use to the setup, yet doesn't require any BP, seems more fitting for neutral. I have BP requirements so idk how everyone thinks I could be neutral - this means I'm either scum or town, and Shin/Iso is the opposite. yes!
with this I can outrule a Phoenix/Killjoy scumteam possiblity. missing scum probably in Osie/Cyth/Kaba. Osie is really hard to figure out lol...so much socializing. Kaba's lurk vote on Last at EoD1 still noted.
You do realize asking me to help you without knowing your alignment is a load of bull. I already plan to betray certain people that I distrust and want to figre out. Phoenix being one of those people since i want to test out if his so called passive can be roleblocked.
Additional: Killjoy, did you read the link you posted?
"In some games, the roles of the dead players are only revealed if the coroner(s) remains alive. In this case, it can be Mafia aligned, creating a dilemma upon revelation."
Talking about the silence of the lambs mafia game lol
what is the correlation in "town in your role pm doesn't mean you're town". does that mean the role pm in the other game had town in all of them??
Dont see why this correlation is relevant seeing as how the hosts are different, and my talk about that mafia game had nothing to do with my role pm in this game. Was just an interaction with palyers from that game.
Hey Shin, why is half this post responding to stuff addressed to me?
and fwiw, i think kj is methodical enough as either alignment that that doesnt mean much. and i kinda think it looks like hes deciding what his opinion is going to be before the reasoning starts. but, you know. Post Formatting Reads...
still strongly dislike his immediate reaction to Jenna.
You think I'm methodical? How does that ever describe me?
Also earlier (4942) you described town me as wishy-washy. How can I be wishy-washy AND methodical? Or rather how can you have both of those thoughts about me?
@LnGrrr: I've been very lurky in part due to trying to catch up and in part due to not playing on weekends usually (which doesn't help with the catching up, as it turns out). I've mostly given up on reading through Day 1 today, but with Night falling over a holiday weekend, I'm planning to use that time to catch up and am going to just play toDay off of what's happened toDay, since that's the only real way to stay sane here despite being technically inferior to being fully caught up.
That said, re:reads, here you go. Turns out it's largely a regurgitation of LnGrrrR's list, but he's also one of my stronger town reads, so I'm ok with that.
Axelrod - He hasn't posted that much that I've really noticed toDay, but I have no feelings here and likely won't figure them out before the deadline.
Az - I haven't liked his approach today, but his claim is giving me pause. While Mafia doctors are a thing, we haven't seen a second kill so this doesn't need to be addressed toDay.
Dawn - I agree with you on the neutral thing. He was the first one to mention it that I recall, which usually points to being one. But this is a distraction for now.
Iso - His tunneling on Az today is poor and I don't remember anything else he's done. The degree of tunneling here is beyond what I'd expect of him.
JennaTolaria - Not voting here.
Kabazame - I don't really have a read here.
Killjoy - His approach on Phoenix is weird to me. It seemed to me like his response was a slip that he knew Phoenix's alignment, and his follow-up has felt a bit off to me.
LastWhisper - Happy to vote here - I pressed into Whisper earlier with my concern, and while I've been focused elsewhere to try to stay afloat, this read hasn't changed.
LnGrrrR - Not voting, strong town read.
Osieorb - Strong town read here as well - approach definitely coming from a town mindset.
Phoenix - I think he's felt fairly Town.
Terry - I don't really know much about Terry to formulate a read, and he's felt a bit all over the place, but low priority if any.
Shin - I'm mildly concerned that his focus is to drive mislynches, since he seems *really* focused, but I also don't think it's for toDay.
Tom - Not voting here.
My preference here is Killjoy or LastWhisper, but I'm open to an Iso lynch in theory. For everyone else, I either have a town read or don't have enough of a read on.
@Killjoy; @Osie: Why wouldn't one of you say something like "Hey, let's ally, and if one of us doesn't we consider it a scum claim." I'm just trying to wrap my head around how neither of you decided to push that angle; you'd both either gain a BP or catch scum, seems like a good trade to me. I just don't really get how you guys could have a neighbor chat and come up with nothing better than betray/betray while still feeling better about the other.
Well to start, the first words out of his mouth in the chat were bacially "I'm scumreading you, I'm probably going to betray you. Defend yourself."
Which is more or less what I was also thinking.
I kinda wish we had done that. I would have more BP.
I'm not holding the betray against him because I went in there thinking I was going to betray him and he was going to betray me. We seemed to have the same mindset.
I'd guess just... no one thought of that option. I certainly didn't.
@Osie: I recall there being a question about you faking emotions that I never answered: I feel like you're doing that because you said you were actively avoiding an OMGUS. OMGUS is reactionary and you are suppressing it, resulting in a tame, psudocalm mindset which I'm not seeing as being natural (which it's not).
BTW: In the chat you said your weird questions had a purpose. You've stopped doing them. Why?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
true. then we can go with Shin. but I doubt we have enough convincing for that....
Since you don't want to try to convince me that Last is town, can you at least try to convince me that Shin is scum? I'm not really seeing a case on either of them from you, and I'm significantly more willing to believe that Shin is scum than I am to believe that Last is town or Phoenix is scum.
@Killjoy; @Osie: Why wouldn't one of you say something like "Hey, let's ally, and if one of us doesn't we consider it a scum claim." I'm just trying to wrap my head around how neither of you decided to push that angle; you'd both either gain a BP or catch scum, seems like a good trade to me. I just don't really get how you guys could have a neighbor chat and come up with nothing better than betray/betray while still feeling better about the other.
Before reading any posts after yours...
I kinda explained this, and without going hard into an OoG argument...
Timeline of that day (EST, since it's what's used for the gameclock):
Afternoon - I post Neighbour Chat #27 & #28, mentioning that I still believe Killjoy is scum, with some reasons why.
Evening - I submit a Betray vote.
Past midnight - Killjoy suggests that I ally in #29. I mention that it's too late in #30.
Later - Bur starts the game.
I would like to know why he's scumreading me even when I've explained myself.
As I believe I have said, I have you straining the boundary between neutral and townlean, barring something overwhelmingly townie, or an Az townflip. You are part of one world, but you could definitely be town irregardless of the alignments of Last and Az.
Public Mod Note
(Wildfire393):
Warning for aggressive multiposting.
@phoenix- I am reading Osie as heavily anti-town townie at present.
Lol, because I'm vehemently in disagreement with you? Because I think you're scum? Because it's convenient since you know my alignment?
This is what I'm talking about when I said I thought you were faking emotions towards me. Remember how I asked why you weren't scumreading me harder? This is the kind of response (toward me) I was surprised never happened. The fact that you're not doing it now towards Az is weird.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Well to start, the first words out of his mouth in the chat were bacially "I'm scumreading you, I'm probably going to betray you. Defend yourself."
Which is more or less what I was also thinking.
I kinda wish we had done that. I would have more BP.
I'm not holding the betray against him because I went in there thinking I was going to betray him and he was going to betray me. We seemed to have the same mindset.
I'd guess just... no one thought of that option. I certainly didn't.
Yeah, I pondered it for a second around posting Neighbour Chat #28/#29, and then decided there was no way that I'd trust you to actually agree to it, or hold by it, and bringing myself down to 1 for that was too risky.
@Osie: I recall there being a question about you faking emotions that I never answered: I feel like you're doing that because you said you were actively avoiding an OMGUS. OMGUS is reactionary and you are suppressing it, resulting in a tame, psudocalm mindset which I'm not seeing as being natural (which it's not).
This is a REALLY good point, and I wish that some of the other people scumreading me actually made points like this, instead of just OMGUSing and saying I'm shading them. (They'll just call this more shade, but it's important to note.)
After the disaster which was this game, I decided before even seeing my alignment in the next game that from then on, I'd worry more about enjoying the game than I would about being scumread.
To me, OMGUS is counter-productive to playing the game. It's saying "I don't enjoy that you're scumreading me, so I'm now scumreading you." This is distinct from "I don't like what you've said is your reasoning for your reads, which happen to include X read on me, and I'm reading you as less than a strong townread anyways for such-and-such other reasons." At this point in the game, I feel like you and I are both doing the latter to each other, though my read of you has steadily gone up (At this point, you're at Null, though not necessarily out of POE), and I am also in the latter category on Lastwhisper, and to varying degrees Azrael, Tom, and Terry.
BTW: In the chat you said your weird questions had a purpose. You've stopped doing them. Why?
They're not as useful at this point since:
1. People are more certain on their reads or gambits.
2. People are aware of what I was trying to do.
3. I don't have as much time to analyze responses.
I considered it for Last, though. It's more useful in general as a technique against scumreads, even if they might be able to guess that I'm doing it. But if they know to expect it, it's more likely to return false positives.
This is what I'm talking about when I said I thought you were faking emotions towards me. Remember how I asked why you weren't scumreading me harder? This is the kind of response (toward me) I was surprised never happened. The fact that you're not doing it now towards Az is weird.
I mean, my scumreads on the two of you are pretty different, and I'm more certain on my scumread on Az than I've been on my scumread on you any time this thread.
Well to start, the first words out of his mouth in the chat were bacially "I'm scumreading you, I'm probably going to betray you. Defend yourself."
Which is more or less what I was also thinking.
I kinda wish we had done that. I would have more BP.
I'm not holding the betray against him because I went in there thinking I was going to betray him and he was going to betray me. We seemed to have the same mindset.
I'd guess just... no one thought of that option. I certainly didn't.
Yeah, I pondered it for a second around posting Neighbour Chat #28/#29, and then decided there was no way that I'd trust you to actually agree to it, or hold by it, and bringing myself down to 1 for that was too risky.
I'm the one who suggested it though. I agreed to it first. Why didn't you reconsider at post 30? We had time then.
@Osie: I recall there being a question about you faking emotions that I never answered: I feel like you're doing that because you said you were actively avoiding an OMGUS. OMGUS is reactionary and you are suppressing it, resulting in a tame, psudocalm mindset which I'm not seeing as being natural (which it's not).
This is a REALLY good point, and I wish that some of the other people scumreading me actually made points like this, instead of just OMGUSing and saying I'm shading them. (They'll just call this more shade, but it's important to note.)
After the disaster which was this game, I decided before even seeing my alignment in the next game that from then on, I'd worry more about enjoying the game than I would about being scumread.
To me, OMGUS is counter-productive to playing the game. It's saying "I don't enjoy that you're scumreading me, so I'm now scumreading you." This is distinct from "I don't like what you've said is your reasoning for your reads, which happen to include X read on me, and I'm reading you as less than a strong townread anyways for such-and-such other reasons." At this point in the game, I feel like you and I are both doing the latter to each other, though my read of you has steadily gone up (At this point, you're at Null, though not necessarily out of POE), and I am also in the latter category on Lastwhisper, and to varying degrees Azrael, Tom, and Terry.
Question: Do you believe I've attributed anything to you unfairly this game? Like, made an assertion about your thought process that was just objectively wrong that you thought "Where is this even coming from???"
If so, I have a followup question.
BTW: In the chat you said your weird questions had a purpose. You've stopped doing them. Why?
They're not as useful at this point since:
1. People are more certain on their reads or gambits.
2. People are aware of what I was trying to do.
3. I don't have as much time to analyze responses.
I considered it for Last, though. It's more useful in general as a technique against scumreads, even if they might be able to guess that I'm doing it. But if they know to expect it, it's more likely to return false positives.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
This is what I'm talking about when I said I thought you were faking emotions towards me. Remember how I asked why you weren't scumreading me harder? This is the kind of response (toward me) I was surprised never happened. The fact that you're not doing it now towards Az is weird.
I mean, my scumreads on the two of you are pretty different, and I'm more certain on my scumread on Az than I've been on my scumread on you any time this thread.
You said in your previous post that I was up to Null, but in this post you're talking about a scumread on me in the present tense. Explain that please.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@phoenix
"Surface level" is kind of the point of occam's razor actually.
@AZ
What is so anti town about osi?
@dawning
It bugs me you want people to take your meta read on whisper as law but are just... actively ignoring me and az's meta read on Iso. We've both explained it fairly well imo. He's not solving the game like iso solves games.
And is straight up flaunting that with his bull***** links to his iso which is, like, totally my move.
@kj
Do you disagree with the methodical or the wishy washy?
Because I stand by both.
Yeah, I pondered it for a second around posting Neighbour Chat #28/#29, and then decided there was no way that I'd trust you to actually agree to it, or hold by it, and bringing myself down to 1 for that was too risky.
I'm the one who suggested it though. I agreed to it first. Why didn't you reconsider at post 30? We had time then.[/quote]
As far as I could tell, we were a couple hours past the deadline. Bur had already confirmed betrayal around the deadline.
Question: Do you believe I've attributed anything to you unfairly this game? Like, made an assertion about your thought process that was just objectively wrong that you thought "Where is this even coming from???"
If so, I have a followup question.
I'll have to get back to you on that one. I'll try to get to it sometime in the next 24 hours, probably tonight.
You said in your previous post that I was up to Null, but in this post you're talking about a scumread on me in the present tense. Explain that please.
You're not out of POE, and Null means that you could go either way. I still think you could be scum. I wouldn't be opposed to a lynch on you. But I'm not as convinced that you're scum as I am on LW or Azrael.
@dawning
It bugs me you want people to take your meta read on whisper as law but are just... actively ignoring me and az's meta read on Iso. We've both explained it fairly well imo. He's not solving the game like iso solves games.
And is straight up flaunting that with his bull***** links to his iso which is, like, totally my move.
I don't like either meta read... I think Dawning is simply over-relying on her impression of Last's meta, and you're trying to fit Iso into a 1-foot by 1-foot box. Well, Iso is bigger than that; you need a bigger box.
how did he get plus 3 from you? I need to find pheonixes role post when I get home, unless some one wants to find it for me, Ill be driving for an hour... :/ I want to check is role claim again, b/c I realized something
Dawn/Phoenix: A/B. Phoenix got 3+ from that round. the role is bumped at #5255, just up there.
nvm Im an idiot again... also
Phoenix
Does ur ability cost anything? Does it have any limitations? I find it wierd that you failed to mention ur bp costs or if u have thresholds... and I doubt that you have none... cause that wouldn't correlate with anything we've learned so far. and if you die from betrays, someone else gets ur ability? lmao you would never let urself die from betray... that doesnt make any sense, unless u wanted to kill urself to clear everyones PoE...
THIS! I didn't even realize that! There is no way for someone to lose all of their BP via the AB game. Did anyone lose a BP unexplainably? So if you have an ability that has no cost, you NEVER die to AB games because you always pick Betray.
This is probably the best point, in terms of the ability being unlike anything else claimed, and the "pass if you die from betray" being both strange flavor-wise and also virtually impossible to ever happen. Though Iso did claim someone stole a BP so it might be at least theoretically possible.
Private Mod Note
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I guess in retrospect it's hard for a lot of people to believe in a case based on the absence of something being there, that shpuld be. But it is just so palpable how hard he isn't trying.
Hi, Az! Have you read Jurassic Park Adventure 2 Mafia? If not, I would strongly advise you to familiarize yourself with "minimal effort Iso".
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Based on this and your responses to Nacho and Chris, I...don't think you're actually reading the game any more.
I never stop reading and reconsidering. But at present, nobody is engaging me with reads that seem more attractive or well-thought out than what I'm working with already. Soon as that happens, I'll happily change my tune. As always.
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Based on this and your responses to Nacho and Chris, I...don't think you're actually reading the game any more.
I never stop reading and reconsidering. But at present, nobody is engaging me with reads that seem more attractive or well-thought out than what I'm working with already. Soon as that happens, I'll happily change my tune. As always.
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
@Joe
Losing role info is a big deal.
Imagine if we lynched a scum role blocker or something and didn't know that and lynch through neutraldawn and town shin?
What if one of the people pushing scumaz rn is the actual doc that doesn't want to out themselves and scum kills them once were no flip.
I put the order of likelihood for phoenix at lying scum>town>truthful scum.
Still not voting there.
Again your putting to much trust in a role that I dont think is town aligned, based on alot of curcumstances. So what if their are no flips? You act like town cant win flipless games.
I wouldn't put it past Phoenix not to google other Bur games when coming up with the claim. It seemed kind of rushed, so I'd expect errors. Like, I can't think of a scenario where Jenna is scum besides being scum with Phoenix, so what worries me the most about lynching this guilty result (which is what it is) is that if Phoenix flips town, we don't get to automatic Jenna scum. So in a world where I can't imagine a scenario that makes Jenna scum, I trust her claim, but find it completely feasible that Phoenix's claim is made up, due to the number of holes in it.
So, I take from this you are operating on the theory that scum-phoenix did not have his false-claim prepared at the time he initially denied that he targeted DV, and only came up with it on the fly after Jenna outted him?
1. Lynches: SO you think he visits the lynchee after there lynched to give us role info?
I mean, mechanically, I have no issue with this. In as much as it's supposed to be a role that, as long as it's alive gives us full role reveals.
2. Multiple kills: I have a hard time imagining a role that has to be in two places at once.
I do not have a hard time imagining this. It is a bit bastardy.
3. Bur has never hidden role info before.
This was one of my first thoughts when he made the claim (or rather, my thought was - is this consistent with what Bur has done before). And it's not. Which leads me to the question, shouldn't Phoenix have thought about that too? Would he make a false claim like this knowing that it's inconsistent with the way Bur has always done it before?
I mean, he might, but it's kind of sloppy of Phoenix to not check that, or very ballsy of him to check it and claim it anyway.
I wouldn't put it past Phoenix not to google other Bur games when coming up with the claim. It seemed kind of rushed, so I'd expect errors. Like, I can't think of a scenario where Jenna is scum besides being scum with Phoenix, so what worries me the most about lynching this guilty result (which is what it is) is that if Phoenix flips town, we don't get to automatic Jenna scum. So in a world where I can't imagine a scenario that makes Jenna scum, I trust her claim, but find it completely feasible that Phoenix's claim is made up, due to the number of holes in it.
I agree with terry here, I honestly if i cant gunrantee phoenix will be roleblocked I would like to see him lynched.
He also, incidentally, gets caught with this claim if there are other roles out there (like, you know, an actual Watcher) and they don't see/track him to a death. Maybe the scum get around this by always having him be the one to do the kill, but as has been noted, he can get RBed, and then what? Are the scum going to miss a kill to try and frame him?
Not ahrd if I cant roleblock him all that has to be done is dawn roleblocks him and we will have our answer.
1. behaviorally, you focused too much on me while justifying it as a possible tunnel - instead of backing out and thinking it over.
2. mechanically, you counterclaimed late. you had the ticket to escape the lynch on your townread, but you still hammered him, saying you intend to hound me if he flipped town - looks like fishing towncred off the dying townie. you yourself know and believe that town cannot have 2 of the same alignment, but now you're trying to argue that maybe this is just a tunnel and that we're both town. doesn't add up.
3. I've seen a bulletproof SK. not sure about roleblocking. I really hope town will lynch me if that's the only way to prove my theory correct. I know I am town, so I'm sure you are scum - due to the fact you're a roleblocking variant. in fact, my flip will tie together many loose points. push my case if you actually scumread me, don't just sit on it knowing my lynch won't happen...because you're only 1 vote. fueling the Azrael wagon won't help you lynch me fyi.
4. why do you feel the need to reference an old game then, in regards to role wording? I thought you said you don't care about other games, and only this one.
5. but tell me...
how do you intend to roleblock Phoenix Tonight? looking back at your claim, you're a Delayed Roleblocker who can block only by the next phase. there is also no guarantee that you will be paired up with Phoenix, or have the sufficient BP (4) to transfer the effects over since you're currently at (2).
6. if your personal feelings are getting in the way, please calm down. I've had to hear you talking about me like I'm 'so smart' or 'acting like a god'. you're not one to talk about "petty behavior".
@Tom @LnG
if I am town, what does that make Shin? I know that I am town, that is why I'm sure Shin is scum. town cannot have 2 roleblockers, and Shin is too under-powered to be a neutral. if you want to argue that Dawn/Shin is town/neutral, then it's still fine to focus on us - you can figure out the neutral along with the setup. town is throwing away an important lead here if they won't lynch between Dawn/Shin.
1.Ok when do i not tunnel miss meta? If you cant answer that properly then you cant possible see anything wrong with my acitons.
2.It wasnt a counter claim 2 other people have clarly pointed out the differences actually your the only one who thinks its a counterclaim tbf lol, so likewise I don't care aobut this mechanical aspect you keep going back to. Cause again if I was scum why the hell would I wait till now to counterclaim, i aint an idiot i know how to play the game.
3. Well I mean if you get lynched and flipp town ill still be flipping town, but I highly doubt your going to flip town with that role claim of yours.
4.I don't but am i going to let myself get patronized? No of course not if I have to ill step outside my comfort zone.
5.Delayed? If I am partnered with Phoenix and I betray him he will be role blocked that night. I obviously cant control it, so is this your way of justfiying my lynch is ok when your only able to clear yourself after night 3.
6. Petty is one thing I am not, and i dont bring personal feelings into this game so please reframe from continuing to bring that up over and over its annoying.
I made a whole long post about Phoenix and lost it. I'm not recreating it.
Basically I concluded that as scum this would be a very elaborate planned out gambit - probably too elaborate - or a very fortuitous and quick thinking false claim from Phoenix - fortuitous because of his apparent role as "Carlos" which apparently fits this flavor very well (I know nothing of the flavor).
I mean he had a while to think this through espically if he was scum, and thanks to those who didnt want to out their own actions it caused the whole sitaution to drag on. So he actually had quite a fair time to come up with the gambit. Which makes it even harder for me to believe this is a town claim.
@last manipulation why do u fall for it so easily?
idk what you mean, just cause you see me agree on paper, doesnt mean I actually agree overall...
I agree with terry here, I honestly if i cant gunrantee phoenix will be roleblocked I would like to see him lynched.
Phoenix already stated his ability cant be roleblocked, but Im starting to believe that the fact that he asked Bur is a lie, and that his whole role is a lie...
Based on this and your responses to Nacho and Chris, I...don't think you're actually reading the game any more.
I never stop reading and reconsidering. But at present, nobody is engaging me with reads that seem more attractive or well-thought out than what I'm working with already. Soon as that happens, I'll happily change my tune. As always.
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
but were you scum tho? Lol
nope
-
I'm in a slightly better mood about this game after reading over my posts in the 2016 Invitational. Anyone want to chat about what's going on?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso
1 Probably a loaded question, but do you think there is a world where me, dawn, and shin are all town?
2. Why am I a town read from you now?
3. What do you think of Osie's push on me...
4. Do you still want Az to die today?
@Phoenix #5329: I was saying we should Lynch you OR a low poster, but then I looked at your ISO and it's only 5 pages long, so you probably are on the low end of post count totals. (Isn't there a way to check post totals in thread?)
Iso
1 Probably a loaded question, but do you think there is a world where me, dawn, and shin are all town?
2. Why am I a town read from you now?
3. What do you think of Osie's push on me...
4. Do you still want Az to die today?
1. Yeah, I think that's possible. Possibly likely, even.
2. Eh. I'm still iffy on it but there's not a whole lot of guile in your actions. You just sort of seem to vomit words until you insert your foot into your mouth to stop the leakage but it doesn't seem malicious, I guess. It's often difficult for me to read players who post a lot of drivel because I just assume they're scum looking like they're trying to be busy or something.
3. I haven't read too much on it, but I think his sudden invigoration with the attempt to take the reins of the game is alarmingly uncharacteristic.
4. I'm not as hardlined about it as I was when the Day started but I would still prefer it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can I answer some version of these questions after Iso answers?
@Iso (and anyone else):
I'm around for at least some of the next hour and a half. Feel free to hit me up with questions/comments/concerns/desires/shading/puzzles/food/drink/etc.
Weren't you the one who posted a list of role info? *Frown*
Yes, because that's info that is already out there. I'm sure scum had a list like that in their chat thread, so I figured we should too. I would be totally fine with out seeing another role this game, I just want to see that sweet red ink!
Can I answer some version of these questions after Iso answers?
@Iso (and anyone else):
I'm around for at least some of the next hour and a half. Feel free to hit me up with questions/comments/concerns/desires/shading/puzzles/food/drink/etc.
I'm going on lunch, you might be SOL if you want to interact with me today.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I am not point fingers I am just listing possible people that could have this role since its not part of my role whether you believe it or not...
Possible BP Takers:
Kabazame
tomsloger (Dont think it can be tom tho, but for semantics sake, I listed him)
Cythare
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Killjoy
Axelrod
Ive only included the people that havent claimed yet...
2. BP Giver and BP Taker is safely assumed to be in play. I think they're meant to support/counter the killing roles. logically, they won't be on the same faction to keep the support/counter in the balance.
3. roles: reviver(conf), cop(conf), doctor, vig, vengeful, ab analyzer, tracker, roleblocker x2, neighborizer(x), first responder(x).
- Phoenix is probably scum due to the conflicting nature of his role. his role apparently controls the flow of information.
- in terms of roleblocking, and inside information of possible closed setups (knowing Phoenix's role), Shinichi is probably scum.
- Osie hard-defending Phoenix probably means they're aligned.
not sure but for now: Phoenix/Shin/Osie.
this setup is probably not as low-powered as we thought.
scumteam probably consist of defensive/manipulative roles. neighborizer comes to mind.
missing links are missing. but yess, I'm getting the full picture!
Be grateful, always."
Just flip him late-game if he's still alive, and get the best of both worlds.
Could see any combination of alignments for those two roles.
IF it's not whisper with both (ftr I think he's currently my ~weakest town read)
But I do think targeting a KP claim is reasonably townie in a vacuum. Definitely how I would have used it.
much agreement
by the way, what do you think of Iso as town and Osie as scum?
Be grateful, always."
also... what do you think of Cythare's reads?
Be grateful, always."
I didn't notice anything noteworthy in cyth's reads post.
I think BP Giver/Taker will be quite important to this setup, along with AB Analyzer. we don't know any other roles that are game-specific, so I'd assume these 3 are the only ones. makes sense for town to have 1 half of the BP control, with scum having the other half of it. AB Analyzer is some kind of..weak investigator role...something. can't see how else to balance the setup with BP usage, AB games, high ability costs, and thresholds.
Cyth is really townreading LnG while answering him, and townreading Osie/Phoenix despite lack of interaction.
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
@Shinichi, @Dawning, @Last: for the love of all that is good and holy, can you guys stop talking about other games offsite that have zero impact on this game? It's driving me insane with the "yeah, but you flipped scum double vig, Doctor, teenage mutant ninja turtle, and I soooo called your role even though I was a vengeful jester with six cop checks." We get it, you have history, but you're not using it here with any relevance and just making this game more frustrating to read through because half the time I'm not sure if you're talking about your thoughts on each other right now or in a previous game.This reads like a TMI on Az being town. Terry, why are you assuming Az will be alive tomorrow? And if your answer is "cause he's scum" why would he claim Doctor like he did when he'd know he couldn't make it last?Az, what is your read on Osi?
@Last: What are your current thoughts on Az-Iso? Do you think they're town-town? If not, why do you want them to not be the focus?My ability isn't susceptible to Role blocks due to being a passive (per Bur).It feels like you're just being far too narrow minded; this game is about solving people and the puzzle of what happened, and it feels like you've found a piece that you want to just shove into a spot and say "Look it fits", just because it's easier. If you actually think I'm scum, then whatever, it's not my obligation to change your mind, but right now you're acting like you think I should be scum more than you actually think I am, and that's just such surface level play.What's your actual read on me then?Any particular reason? And why are you lumping me in as a "low poster"? I've been active this game, and I've kept up every day.As soon as I quoted this I partook in the devil's drink and am thus not capable of composing good and useful thoughts anymore. So I'm leaving it in and stopping myself here for tonight to continue in the morning.
I think that that is the exact opposite of the world we are actually living in and I have trouble comprehending why people have trouble reaching the same read on iso as me.
I guess in retrospect it's hard for a lot of people to believe in a case based on the absence of something being there, that shpuld be. But it is just so palpable how hard he isn't trying.
Does Phoenix not conceal alignment flips, or does he?
But if I just wanted to point fingers at the two people tanking the town hardest atm, it'd be him and iso.
I'm not sure what Iso is lacking, but no or less activity can come from the huge amount of posts we have to sift through. and...I'm not sure if either one of you are scum, with the way things were so focused on Azrael vs Iso. do you scumread Iso based on tone? I prefer something more concrete than just tonal reads....and the closest I can get from Iso is the counterclaim/retract issue.
it's hard for me to see Osie as town... mind explaining to me how he is town? I would like to know why he's scumreading me even when I've explained myself.
according to what he posted, the details of a role won't be publicized when their alignment is revealed - which means alignment flips should still be around. I don't think it will be a loss to town if we lose role details, since alignments are what matter.
Be grateful, always."
Quark doesnt' have much on him. He's not portrayed as particularly prodigious, but he's bright, I suppose. He's just a kid.
I'm not sure your ability would fit any of the characters, TBH.
I did. I saw that it COULD be mafia aligned. There was a role like that in Mind Screw, iirc.
But it's generally bastardly to punish town for killing scum, and reducing info to the town on death would be doing just that.
An Insane cop is told that their results might not be trustworthy, and therefore can take that into account in their analysis.
Tom made the point that the passiveness of Pheonix's ability screws with a tracker. The tracker would not know this exists, and therefore does not know they would not be able to trust their ability.
I need to figure out if that outweighs his behavior. It won't now, but I'll reevaluate when I know more of the setup.
If I can ever hit the threshold I need to hit to use it, sure.It's pretty high.
Just because you've never seen it before doesn't make it fake.
But yes, Pheonix's role is more powerful than your typical Coroner. Which also doesn't make it fake. But we don't have enough information to determine it's validity at this point.
It's actually a simple concept. As far as I can tell it's just either never been done before, or just hasn't been done before here. (I vaguely recall something in Mind Screw being similar but didn't have to do with reveals, it was something else). And saying that it requires 'a lot' of assumptions to make Pheonix town is wrong. It requires one: that Pheonix's role works like he said. The fact that he didn't understand that going in makes me think he's telling the truth.
And those are the only two possibilities, huh?
This. This is part of why I assumed watcher: because she was so sure. I figured watcher because watching one person target the Nightkill is much, much different than tracking one person to it.
Hey Shin, why is half this post responding to stuff addressed to me?
You think I'm methodical? How does that ever describe me?
Also earlier (4942) you described town me as wishy-washy. How can I be wishy-washy AND methodical? Or rather how can you have both of those thoughts about me?
Explain Osie for me.
Well to start, the first words out of his mouth in the chat were bacially "I'm scumreading you, I'm probably going to betray you. Defend yourself."
Which is more or less what I was also thinking.
I kinda wish we had done that. I would have more BP.
I'm not holding the betray against him because I went in there thinking I was going to betray him and he was going to betray me. We seemed to have the same mindset.
I'd guess just... no one thought of that option. I certainly didn't.
@Osie: I recall there being a question about you faking emotions that I never answered: I feel like you're doing that because you said you were actively avoiding an OMGUS. OMGUS is reactionary and you are suppressing it, resulting in a tame, psudocalm mindset which I'm not seeing as being natural (which it's not).
BTW: In the chat you said your weird questions had a purpose. You've stopped doing them. Why?
Cythare also knows at least some selection of those three players better than you do...
Since you don't want to try to convince me that Last is town, can you at least try to convince me that Shin is scum? I'm not really seeing a case on either of them from you, and I'm significantly more willing to believe that Shin is scum than I am to believe that Last is town or Phoenix is scum.
Weren't you the one who posted a list of role info? *Frown*
Before reading any posts after yours...
I kinda explained this, and without going hard into an OoG argument...
Timeline of that day (EST, since it's what's used for the gameclock):
Afternoon - I post Neighbour Chat #27 & #28, mentioning that I still believe Killjoy is scum, with some reasons why.
Evening - I submit a Betray vote.
Past midnight - Killjoy suggests that I ally in #29. I mention that it's too late in #30.
Later - Bur starts the game.
Huh. That's interesting...
Lol, because I'm vehemently in disagreement with you? Because I think you're scum? Because it's convenient since you know my alignment?
As I believe I have said, I have you straining the boundary between neutral and townlean, barring something overwhelmingly townie, or an Az townflip. You are part of one world, but you could definitely be town irregardless of the alignments of Last and Az.
Yeah, I pondered it for a second around posting Neighbour Chat #28/#29, and then decided there was no way that I'd trust you to actually agree to it, or hold by it, and bringing myself down to 1 for that was too risky.
This is a REALLY good point, and I wish that some of the other people scumreading me actually made points like this, instead of just OMGUSing and saying I'm shading them. (They'll just call this more shade, but it's important to note.)
As I said in... #5170, referring to Horsemen:
To me, OMGUS is counter-productive to playing the game. It's saying "I don't enjoy that you're scumreading me, so I'm now scumreading you." This is distinct from "I don't like what you've said is your reasoning for your reads, which happen to include X read on me, and I'm reading you as less than a strong townread anyways for such-and-such other reasons." At this point in the game, I feel like you and I are both doing the latter to each other, though my read of you has steadily gone up (At this point, you're at Null, though not necessarily out of POE), and I am also in the latter category on Lastwhisper, and to varying degrees Azrael, Tom, and Terry.
They're not as useful at this point since:
1. People are more certain on their reads or gambits.
2. People are aware of what I was trying to do.
3. I don't have as much time to analyze responses.
I considered it for Last, though. It's more useful in general as a technique against scumreads, even if they might be able to guess that I'm doing it. But if they know to expect it, it's more likely to return false positives.
I mean, my scumreads on the two of you are pretty different, and I'm more certain on my scumread on Az than I've been on my scumread on you any time this thread.
Question: Do you believe I've attributed anything to you unfairly this game? Like, made an assertion about your thought process that was just objectively wrong that you thought "Where is this even coming from???"
If so, I have a followup question.
Hm. ok
"Surface level" is kind of the point of occam's razor actually.
@AZ
What is so anti town about osi?
@dawning
It bugs me you want people to take your meta read on whisper as law but are just... actively ignoring me and az's meta read on Iso. We've both explained it fairly well imo. He's not solving the game like iso solves games.
And is straight up flaunting that with his bull***** links to his iso which is, like, totally my move.
@kj
Do you disagree with the methodical or the wishy washy?
Because I stand by both.
As far as I could tell, we were a couple hours past the deadline. Bur had already confirmed betrayal around the deadline.
I'll have to get back to you on that one. I'll try to get to it sometime in the next 24 hours, probably tonight.
You're not out of POE, and Null means that you could go either way. I still think you could be scum. I wouldn't be opposed to a lynch on you. But I'm not as convinced that you're scum as I am on LW or Azrael.
That's somewhat my biggest issue with the Phoenix wagon... It seems superficial.
I don't like either meta read... I think Dawning is simply over-relying on her impression of Last's meta, and you're trying to fit Iso into a 1-foot by 1-foot box. Well, Iso is bigger than that; you need a bigger box.
This is probably the best point, in terms of the ability being unlike anything else claimed, and the "pass if you die from betray" being both strange flavor-wise and also virtually impossible to ever happen. Though Iso did claim someone stole a BP so it might be at least theoretically possible.
This was the funniest thing I read all game.
I think they're more afraid of me being alive, in general.
I think it's very possible that they are. Which probably means LW is scum, despite my desire for this to not be the case.
Hi, Az! Have you read Jurassic Park Adventure 2 Mafia? If not, I would strongly advise you to familiarize yourself with "minimal effort Iso".
I think this can accurately be responded to with a quote from the game I just mentioned to Az, hilariously:
I want to go on record as saying that I am not able to confirm whether or not the BP was actually stolen so much as just removed.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I should probably stop typing Mafia posts while on calls at work.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Again your putting to much trust in a role that I dont think is town aligned, based on alot of curcumstances. So what if their are no flips? You act like town cant win flipless games.
He had plenty of time to think about it
@last manipulation why do u fall for it so easily?
I agree with terry here, I honestly if i cant gunrantee phoenix will be roleblocked I would like to see him lynched.
Not ahrd if I cant roleblock him all that has to be done is dawn roleblocks him and we will have our answer.
1.Ok when do i not tunnel miss meta? If you cant answer that properly then you cant possible see anything wrong with my acitons.
2.It wasnt a counter claim 2 other people have clarly pointed out the differences actually your the only one who thinks its a counterclaim tbf lol, so likewise I don't care aobut this mechanical aspect you keep going back to. Cause again if I was scum why the hell would I wait till now to counterclaim, i aint an idiot i know how to play the game.
3. Well I mean if you get lynched and flipp town ill still be flipping town, but I highly doubt your going to flip town with that role claim of yours.
4.I don't but am i going to let myself get patronized? No of course not if I have to ill step outside my comfort zone.
5.Delayed? If I am partnered with Phoenix and I betray him he will be role blocked that night. I obviously cant control it, so is this your way of justfiying my lynch is ok when your only able to clear yourself after night 3.
6. Petty is one thing I am not, and i dont bring personal feelings into this game so please reframe from continuing to bring that up over and over its annoying.
I mean he had a while to think this through espically if he was scum, and thanks to those who didnt want to out their own actions it caused the whole sitaution to drag on. So he actually had quite a fair time to come up with the gambit. Which makes it even harder for me to believe this is a town claim.
idk what you mean, just cause you see me agree on paper, doesnt mean I actually agree overall...
I agree with terry here, I honestly if i cant gunrantee phoenix will be roleblocked I would like to see him lynched.
Phoenix already stated his ability cant be roleblocked, but Im starting to believe that the fact that he asked Bur is a lie, and that his whole role is a lie...
nope
-
I'm in a slightly better mood about this game after reading over my posts in the 2016 Invitational. Anyone want to chat about what's going on?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What do you want to talk about? I am all ears right now...
*****, I dunno. Got any questions for me regarding my view of the gamestate?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1 Probably a loaded question, but do you think there is a world where me, dawn, and shin are all town?
2. Why am I a town read from you now?
3. What do you think of Osie's push on me...
4. Do you still want Az to die today?
1. Yeah, I think that's possible. Possibly likely, even.
2. Eh. I'm still iffy on it but there's not a whole lot of guile in your actions. You just sort of seem to vomit words until you insert your foot into your mouth to stop the leakage but it doesn't seem malicious, I guess. It's often difficult for me to read players who post a lot of drivel because I just assume they're scum looking like they're trying to be busy or something.
3.
4. I'm not as hardlined about it as I was when the Day started but I would still prefer it.
Click on the number of posts in the thread from the Mafia area and it should give you a count of who has how many posts.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can I answer some version of these questions after Iso answers?
@Iso (and anyone else):
I'm around for at least some of the next hour and a half. Feel free to hit me up with questions/comments/concerns/desires/shading/puzzles/food/drink/etc.
I like taking charge of things that I probably shouldn't. Tends to get me in trouble some, too, though.
I'm going on lunch, you might be SOL if you want to interact with me today.
Can you show me an example of couple of times you have done this as town, before?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would assume so unless mafia were provided fake flavor to claim.