I'll be completely honest... you're as facepalm-inducing as town as you are as scum. whenever someone seems to know what they're talking about, you become all defensive and cannot differentiate the flow from an informed or uninformed mindset. ..... I've detailed the reasons in my previous posts, read them carefully.
and please, this is only a game. pfft lynch me with all the fury on earth. it looks like you're taking this game too personally =.=
1. scum wouldn't claim killing roles, it's plain scummy, they would be claiming a protective instead. setup-wise, killing roles make things hard on the town or lone neutral. from this I can say that both killing roles have the possibility of town/neutral at worst, town/town at best. Dawn/Shin are claimed roleblockers, and I can see the necessity of scum to have a roleblocker with this many abilities flying around. if we outrule killing abilities, Shinichi is the mafia roleblocker.
2. Azrael = protective. Iso = killing. Shinichi = manipulative. Dawn = manipulative. not included.
there's more sense in town having an extra protective, not a killing or manipulative. the most we can squeeze in is 1 extra town killing, and that leaves Shinichi for the mafia. Azrael, who claimed protective, has more chance of being town than not.
even if Azrael is lying (since scum tends to claim protective rather than killing), I don't see why he would attract unnecessary attention to himself on D1 by re-evaluating things with walls. scum tend to crack under the pressure to perform so they avoid the spotlight, but Azrael has been more and more persistent with each post. the pressure/attention on scum will frighten them - you should know since you've felt the same yourself. it's wine to think scum would be this daring and persistent (and I've said this before in the other game). Azrael is town, clear as day. you're just wining yourself.
3. Osie wasn't just an 'information lynch', he was a scumread. we should've CFD'd him. in the offchance that Osie was town, he already claimed. there would be no regrets that we lynched a claimed neighborizer over someone who never claimed at all. what was so illogical about that? again, you're letting this get to your head.
@Iso
1. I still find it weird for there to be 2 killing roles assigned to town, and how our only claimed doctor has to be a scumread. we have 1 protective who is reviver, and I'm not sure if I count as a protective, so we should have 1 more protective. if Azrael flips town I guess that makes me the next lynch? so you're just going to off the protective roles town has.. can we please focus elsewhere? and likewise your ability activates when you die, my ability activates when I'm ABOUT to die. does this mean I'm a scumread?
2. that's the best I can find. Shinichi was talking about closed (flipless) setups requiring a roleblocker for NKs. he didn't doubt my roleblocker claim, but he wanted to know if I can block NKs, and said he can see the sense in that. it probably led to the talk of no-reveals or something. could work from there.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Thought: I'm absolutely not sure that there's scum in Iso/Az. I dislike the widespread opinion that it's true/could be true, as this feels like the forced Anak/me dichotomy from Low Fantasy.
I think very few people are considering it a dichotomy. I personally do not. They are both mafia.
But as scum, you just claim you didn't use your ability and then give BP to your scumbuddy. There's no reason to create a paper trail.
except i actually didnt use my ability, and ur assuming otherwise because you think the possible action would be for me to give BP. You can keep asking me questions about this, but there are many reasons why I didnt use my ability...
Same concept in my last game, no one believe me that I hadnt roleblcked they just all assumed I used it without an justification as of why I couldn't or didnt want to use it. I even gave the exact reason as to why i choose not to use it no body cared lol.
@Shin, Silence of the Lambs mafia team had a watcher, and it was insanely useful as we caught both the doctor and a gift giver the same night wjth a fortunate watch. I dont think tracker or watcher are j
inherently scummy.
Phraze
I guess me and you are just destined to butt heads, just like Logic... listen, there are obvious scum tells, and there arent so obvious scum tell... I do not want another mislynch, thats why I am looking at everything... remember how many days we spent mis lynching in Togs' last game, because we looked at obvious scum tells? and instead of going for who was obvious scum, you followed obvious scum tells, to choose your lynch, losing us the game... So please do not tell me what to look at, everything you are suggesting, everything you are telling me, I already know... Once I get back home, Ill answer all the most recent posts... also stop telling me what I think... and again there is nothing wrong with being a little paranoid...
[@Phoenix #4962]
I'm sure Iso/Azrael aren't t/t, either t/s or t/n(eutral). s/n is too good to be true.
and I've been playing the deadline way for a while now.. our lynch options can be the Iso/Azrael pre-flip, but scum are usually guaranteed to win over town whenever they're paired up, or they miraculously survive because scum wants to get mislynches along the way. seen that happen before.
[@Cythare #4966]
in a playerbase of 17, there's bound to be a neutral. with the heavy focus on Azrael/Iso, there's the potential of a neutral....based off the idea that scum wouldn't give themselves so much attention.
sidenote: reaching 5k posts....
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Phraze
I guess me and you are just destined to butt heads, just like Logic... listen, there are obvious scum tells, and there arent so obvious scum tell... I do not want another mislynch, thats why I am looking at everything... remember how many days we spent mis lynching in Togs' last game, because we looked at obvious scum tells? and instead of going for who was obvious scum, you followed obvious scum tells, to choose your lynch, losing us the game... So please do not tell me what to look at, everything you are suggesting, everything you are telling me, I already know... Once I get back home, Ill answer all the most recent posts... also stop telling me what I think... and again there is nothing wrong with being a little paranoid...
fyi you almost lynched me from paranoia, and I rectified the situation by lynching town. I was the main gamesolver in that game while you mostly followed along ~.~ but I'm all ears, explain to me how Shinichi can be town. he hard-tunneled as scum before, and I've seen it. have you seen Shinichi tunnel as scum before? it's his main trick.
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I mean, there's a decent chance that there's a neutral, but I dislike neutral-hunting for a few reasons:
1) We don't know for sure that there's a neutral
2) It distracts from hunting actual scum
3) Opening this door wide enough gives scum something to engage on that ends up looking like scumhunting
If we stumble upon information that leads us to believe there's a neutral killing role down the line (SK, Hitman) due to a double-kill Night or information that a double-kill Night was prevented, then that's worth revisiting. Otherwise, even if there's another neutral role, it gets in the way of finding the actual scum.
then I guess we can just lynch Shinichi. he didn't counterclaim me as roleblocker on D1, and we ended up mislynching. don't think town would have 2 roleblockers, and one who doesn't counterclaim to save the day.
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If Pheronix is town, at least one of Tom/LnGrrR is scum.
I disagree that Pheonix is scum by Occum's Razor. Tracks give very limited info, and I have a townread on him. I liked his reaction to Jenna's claim
I don't know if you understand what Occam's Razor is. It's the "simplest" explanation. The simplest explanation for Jenna's result is that Phoenix killed D_V. The more complicated explanation is that he has a REALLY weird role, that passively visits people so flips are revealed. I mean, it's not that complicated:
1) D_V died.
2) Jenna tracked Phoenix, who visited D_V.
There may be limited info, but it's not THAT hard to work out the simplest answer.
I thought his response was pretty townie too, hence the unvote. Did you not know what Occam's Razor is, or are you just trying to twist words to fit an argument?
I do know what it is. I'm saying I don't think it applies. We know ONE person targeted him. That does not logically mean that he is the only one who did, and trying to pass it off as that (if he is town) is a great way for scum to suspect widely-town-read Pheonix when before they couldn't.I am therefore not going to dismiss it so quickly as "Occum's Razor.".
@Tom: What does "And if he's scum???" mean? It's obviously possible but not likely given the limited scope of the Track. It provides very limited info.
Thought: I'm absolutely not sure that there's scum in Iso/Az. I dislike the widespread opinion that it's true/could be true, as this feels like the forced Anak/me dichotomy from Low Fantasy.
I think very few people are considering it a dichotomy. I personally do not. They are both mafia.
That's your opinion. I'm not sure that's the case either.
If Pheronix is town, at least one of Tom/LnGrrR is scum.
Where did this logic come from?
They both dismissed your result as "Occum's Razor" therefore Pheonix is scum which I explained eariler as unlikely given the limited scope of the track. We know that someone targeted DV. That does not mean he is the only one to do so. There's still so much we don't know.
And to dismiss it as "Occum's Razor" is an overly simplistic solution.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
then I guess we can just lynch Shinichi. he didn't counterclaim me as roleblocker on D1, and we ended up mislynching. don't think town would have 2 roleblockers, and one who doesn't counterclaim to save the day.
Can you base any of your cases on actual behavior instead of claims, claim methodology, and modgaming?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can you base any of your cases on actual behavior instead of claims, claim methodology, and modgaming?
that's totally based on behavior. if we wanna talk about claims, I've been lynch candidate for having roleblocker as claim. don't see the problem here.
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I'm going to be V/LA til Monday
I'd appreciate if everyone could answer my questions regarding Iso/Az
Does anyone believe that Iso/Az are scum/scum, and not just "it could be possible if I squint hard enough" but actually believe they are, and why?
Does anyone believe they're both town, legitimately believe it, not just "it could be possible"?
The deadline is on thanksgiving, I propose that we try and play like it's the day before and aim to get a lynch then, I don't particularly want to be playing on thanksgiving, nor do I expect I will have heaps of extra time to do so.
with 17 people its not weird to believe their are neutrals, and lynching a neutral lowers PoE by a slim amount, but gives us little to no post flip information...
Phraze
I guess me and you are just destined to butt heads, just like Logic... listen, there are obvious scum tells, and there arent so obvious scum tell... I do not want another mislynch, thats why I am looking at everything... remember how many days we spent mis lynching in Togs' last game, because we looked at obvious scum tells? and instead of going for who was obvious scum, you followed obvious scum tells, to choose your lynch, losing us the game... So please do not tell me what to look at, everything you are suggesting, everything you are telling me, I already know... Once I get back home, Ill answer all the most recent posts... also stop telling me what I think... and again there is nothing wrong with being a little paranoid...
fyi you almost lynched me from paranoia, and I rectified the situation by lynching town. I was the main gamesolver in that game while you mostly followed along ~.~ but I'm all ears, explain to me how Shinichi can be town. he hard-tunneled as scum before, and I've seen it. have you seen Shinichi tunnel as scum before? it's his main trick.
True, I did, but you also come off as scummy and manipulative just like Logic, but I wouldnt have gotten that beautiful AtE from you otherwise... lol
How were u the main game solver, when I was like the first to accuse Cross's role of being a lie, and that having two town trackers was weird... I mean ya, you added a lot of the bread to help me push those cases, and lets not forget I was almost a mislynch several days in a row... and no idk how many games you've played with Shin, but he has done this stupid stuff in every game regardless of alignment, stop using the previous game to fuel your reads, yes what he does mainly looks scummy, but in every game I played with him, which I think is like 5 now, he flipped scum once.... and every game he played the same, and wtf kind of trick is this, if it gets him scum read every game...
again Shin is one of the main believers that Mafia and Town never have the same role, which points me to you being the scum, if I ignore everything else about you, because Shin would never claim a role that town already had, its totally against his playstyle...
True, I did, but you also come off as scummy and manipulative just like Logic, but I wouldnt have gotten that beautiful AtE from you otherwise... lol
How were u the main game solver, when I was like the first to accuse Cross's role of being a lie, and that having two town trackers was weird... I mean ya, you added a lot of the bread to help me push those cases, and lets not forget I was almost a mislynch several days in a row... and no idk how many games you've played with Shin, but he has done this stupid stuff in every game regardless of alignment, stop using the previous game to fuel your reads, yes what he does mainly looks scummy, but in every game I played with him, which I think is like 5 now, he flipped scum once.... and every game he played the same, and wtf kind of trick is this, if it gets him scum read every game...
again Shin is one of the main believers that Mafia and Town never have the same role, which points me to you being the scum, if I ignore everything else about you, because Shin would never claim a role that town already had, its totally against his playstyle...
I have another post incoming after I write it up
I'm manipulative, even better than Logic, thank you. and yeah, weren't for that paranoia of yours I wouldn't rank you in with Ruu lolz oh the obsession that drives me crazy!
I already doubted that cop claim, but as always, benefit of doubt should be given to claimers... I only bother about them towards end-game and set my priorities for the phase. town shouldn't worry about the validity of claims in the first place, it only leads to mislynches and needless massclaiming. I seen 2 town 3 scum games from Shinichi so far - there's a fine line if you look hard enough. even if you say he's a believer that town/maf never have the same roles, it doesn't mean he won't fakeclaim to push a mislynch. and thank you very much, that has solidified my scumread on him because I know I'm town.
- from a mechanical standpoint, shouldn't he have counterclaimed to save himself being forced to deal the final vote on Grapefruit?
- from behavior, why hasn't he tried to look beyond me? he never claimed or anything to shut me up and move on to the next person, he's been dawdling and justifying.
and here's his posts, they're hints that he isn't town. I kinda know he will leave hints, since I tend to do the same, and we have similar playstyles.
True, I did, but you also come off as scummy and manipulative just like Logic, but I wouldnt have gotten that beautiful AtE from you otherwise... lol
How were u the main game solver, when I was like the first to accuse Cross's role of being a lie, and that having two town trackers was weird... I mean ya, you added a lot of the bread to help me push those cases, and lets not forget I was almost a mislynch several days in a row... and no idk how many games you've played with Shin, but he has done this stupid stuff in every game regardless of alignment, stop using the previous game to fuel your reads, yes what he does mainly looks scummy, but in every game I played with him, which I think is like 5 now, he flipped scum once.... and every game he played the same, and wtf kind of trick is this, if it gets him scum read every game...
again Shin is one of the main believers that Mafia and Town never have the same role, which points me to you being the scum, if I ignore everything else about you, because Shin would never claim a role that town already had, its totally against his playstyle...
I have another post incoming after I write it up
I'm manipulative, even better than Logic, thank you. and yeah, weren't for that paranoia of yours I wouldn't rank you in with Ruu lolz oh the obsession that drives me crazy!
I already doubted that cop claim, but as always, benefit of doubt should be given to claimers... I only bother about them towards end-game and set my priorities for the phase. town shouldn't worry about the validity of claims in the first place, it only leads to mislynches and needless massclaiming. I seen 2 town 3 scum games from Shinichi so far - there's a fine line if you look hard enough. even if you say he's a believer that town/maf never have the same roles, it doesn't mean he won't fakeclaim to push a mislynch. and thank you very much, that has solidified my scumread on him because I know I'm town.
- from a mechanical standpoint, shouldn't he have counterclaimed to save himself being forced to deal the final vote on Grapefruit?
- from behavior, why hasn't he tried to look beyond me? he never claimed or anything to shut me up and move on to the next person, he's been dawdling and justifying.
and here's his posts, they're hints that he isn't town. I kinda know he will leave hints, since I tend to do the same, and we have similar playstyles.
I want to go back to day 1
GrrrOsie
Explain to me again why you both decided to calm to early? (none of this I've said it a million times bs, I want you to tell me again)
Kill and Osie
So you and Osie had a cup of tea last night, exactly what did you talk about? Do you think Osie is scum or town after your tea party? (again I dont care if you already answered this, I want it answered again)
Shin
Why are your posts so bad.....................
ayyy. now let's lynch the freakin roleblocker (or whateverrr manip role he gets)! I can't see how town gets 2 roleblockers in any way, not even as neutral, so we should 100% focus on Dawn/Shin to strike scum. Iso/Azrael has a chance of hitting neutral or town protective. [we can also put him out of his misery of playing octopus :3]
and Occam's Razor is explained in #4954.
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If Pheronix is town, at least one of Tom/LnGrrR is scum.
I disagree that Pheonix is scum by Occum's Razor. Tracks give very limited info, and I have a townread on him. I liked his reaction to Jenna's claim
I don't know if you understand what Occam's Razor is. It's the "simplest" explanation. The simplest explanation for Jenna's result is that Phoenix killed D_V. The more complicated explanation is that he has a REALLY weird role, that passively visits people so flips are revealed. I mean, it's not that complicated:
1) D_V died.
2) Jenna tracked Phoenix, who visited D_V.
There may be limited info, but it's not THAT hard to work out the simplest answer.
I thought his response was pretty townie too, hence the unvote. Did you not know what Occam's Razor is, or are you just trying to twist words to fit an argument?
I do know what it is. I'm saying I don't think it applies. We know ONE person targeted him. That does not logically mean that he is the only one who did, and trying to pass it off as that (if he is town) is a great way for scum to suspect widely-town-read Pheonix when before they couldn't.I am therefore not going to dismiss it so quickly as "Occum's Razor.".
@Tom: What does "And if he's scum???" mean? It's obviously possible but not likely given the limited scope of the Track. It provides very limited info.
Thought: I'm absolutely not sure that there's scum in Iso/Az. I dislike the widespread opinion that it's true/could be true, as this feels like the forced Anak/me dichotomy from Low Fantasy.
I think very few people are considering it a dichotomy. I personally do not. They are both mafia.
That's your opinion. I'm not sure that's the case either.
If Pheronix is town, at least one of Tom/LnGrrR is scum.
Where did this logic come from?
They both dismissed your result as "Occum's Razor" therefore Pheonix is scum which I explained eariler as unlikely given the limited scope of the track. We know that someone targeted DV. That does not mean he is the only one to do so. There's still so much we don't know.
And to dismiss it as "Occum's Razor" is an overly simplistic solution.
All three of these responses make me feel as if Killjoy is mafia. First, everyone was sharing A/B results. Both Killjoy and Odie were there during the sharefest yet they both said nothing. Compound this with the surprising fact that they both betrayed and things just don't feel right there. The second point doesn't seem to follow. Plenty of people have spoken out against Killjoy's assertion, and when a number of people protested, he waved it off as my sole opinion. But this gets even more confusion when he adds the line "I'm not sure that's the case either." Did you forget what you were arguing? Lastly is the explanation about Occam's Razor which doesn't properly explain the scope of what happened. It deals with outdated moments and has been refuted by LnGrrrR himself. It's baffling how that can get extended from an error, at least from Killjoy's point of view, to malicious intent. It's a narrow interpretation that doesn't stand up to reason. Additionally, this isn't the first time Killjoy has tried to attack LnGrrrR either. Post #755 is LnGrrrR rebuffing Killjoy's first attack. In isolation these events may not appear to be that notable, but this is a pattern of four notable moments where Killjoy has exhibited unbecoming behavior, and I highly suspect there are more to be unearthed as I delve into the past.
Jenna, do you think Killjoy is approaching his response to LnGrrr as though he knows that Phoenix is town, that he's trying to defend a buddy, or is that not factoring into your thought process/irrelevant?
That's the more poignant question to me regarding his response than his approach v LnGrrr.
@Killjoy, I don't think you know what Occams Razor is. Occams Razor says that the simplest explanation is the MOST LIKELY explanation. It does not say it is the ONLY explanation.
@LW, two reasons. One, I was seemingly being scumread by town for my belief that betrayal is scummy in a vacuum. Even my townread were calling me scummy. Two, some of the claims being thrown around didn't match up with my role, which felt quite low power. DBS having a "free" roleblocker, others ant the time saying their abilities were free, just wasn't making any sense to me. So in order to change my trajectory, I needed to explain my role and why I took the stand I did. I also hoped to convince town of my belief, but besides Jenna and maybe Kabazame, I don't think anyone agreed.
I'm ok with a Killjoy lynch. Az too after that weak Shin hop. And probably Last for constantly "forgetting".
@Killjoy, I don't think you know what Occams Razor is. Occams Razor says that the simplest explanation is the MOST LIKELY explanation. It does not say it is the ONLY explanation.
@LW, two reasons. One, I was seemingly being scumread by town for my belief that betrayal is scummy in a vacuum. Even my townread were calling me scummy. Two, some of the claims being thrown around didn't match up with my role, which felt quite low power. DBS having a "free" roleblocker, others ant the time saying their abilities were free, just wasn't making any sense to me. So in order to change my trajectory, I needed to explain my role and why I took the stand I did. I also hoped to convince town of my belief, but besides Jenna and maybe Kabazame, I don't think anyone agreed.
I'm ok with a Killjoy lynch. Az too after that weak Shin hop. And probably Last for constantly "forgetting".
Vote Killjoy
do not pull that bs "forgetting" ***** on me, yes I do forget a lot, but as of late I was asking these questions to stimulate conversation to understand in real time why people did what they did, and to see if it has differences between previous responses...
and thats the explanation of Occams Razor that I wanted, thanks for that I guess...
honestly no one asked for your opinion on the A/B games, it felt like you were trying to control town... maybe that wasnt your attention, but a lot of people saw it that way...
Two, some of the claims being thrown around didn't match up with my role, which felt quite low power. what do you mean here?
Az too after that weak Shin hop Sure I believe this, but I also want to see what he says.
Do you think that Shin/DBS cant both exist as town???
and I thought tom was town most of day 1, and he scum read me? lol, what even is the point of that sentence
Jenna, do you think Killjoy is approaching his response to LnGrrr as though he knows that Phoenix is town, that he's trying to defend a buddy, or is that not factoring into your thought process/irrelevant?
That's the more poignant question to me regarding his response than his approach v LnGrrr.
Dude, cmon. You forgot why people were voting Az. You forgot what jenna was talking about. And probably more, and this is coming from someone who self admittedly has a bad memory.
I was trying to control town, in the sense I was trying to convince people to default ally. But I have gone over my reasons alkyd infinitum by this point.
I explained why the claims didn't match up with mine, right in that post... many of them claimed no cost. Look at my ability. Does it look strong t you, compared to DBS claim?
Why do you need to see what Az says? He pretty much threw a naked vote on shin... he could've explained it then if he wanted. What do you think of that vote?
I think shin/DBS could both be town. I reserve the right to change my mind later.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Do you think that Shin/DBS cant both exist as town???
I'll seriously say that we can't both be town. roleblockers are known to be scummy because scum need them to combat all the town abilities. how else would maf protect themselves from being investigated?? we have a conf cop. and sometimes the simplest answers are the best answers, anything else is just wine. from that interaction analysis with Shin vs Dawn, I don't see how the push can come from town...from the 1st post until recently, there is no uncertainty in the push, even before I claimed roleblocker. just lynch 1 of us please. roleblockers are handy for maf towards endgame.
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I think shin/DBS could both be town. I reserve the right to change my mind later.
well, I'm fine with a Killjoy counterwagon. but it might be better to lynch a potential roleblocker. (unless Shin is actually vengeful while Iso is roleblocker lol)
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Dude, cmon. You forgot why people were voting Az. You forgot what jenna was talking about. And probably more, and this is coming from someone who self admittedly has a bad memory.
I was trying to control town, in the sense I was trying to convince people to default ally. But I have gone over my reasons alkyd infinitum by this point.
I explained why the claims didn't match up with mine, right in that post... many of them claimed no cost. Look at my ability. Does it look strong t you, compared to DBS claim?
Why do you need to see what Az says? He pretty much threw a naked vote on shin... he could've explained it then if he wanted. What do you think of that vote?
I think shin/DBS could both be town. I reserve the right to change my mind later.
1. Do you even remember how many trains there were day 1? Forgive me if I forget reasonings for some of them... I want someone to tell me again their reasoning for something, dont shade me, and just refuse to answer, or answer. Its as simple as that.
2. Except now you know that acting selfish is the only way to get you abilities in decent time, and some people need to be betrayed... So you idea was flawed... and only hurt town...
3. Again I dont see the importance in your ability of yet, or why it costs so high, but Dawn has thresholds, like she needs 1 bp to use her vigi shot, AND I CAN LITERALLY COUNTER HER
4. Because like I answered in Osie's questionaire, I hear everyone out... regardless of what I believe they may flip.
I think shin/DBS could both be town. I reserve the right to change my mind later.
well, I'm fine with a Killjoy counterwagon. but it might be better to lynch a potential roleblocker. (unless Shin is actually vengeful while Iso is roleblocker lol)
where the hell did the stuff in the parenthesis come from?
where the hell did the stuff in the parenthesis come from?
I already speculated that back in the thread. Shinichi only brought up his roleblocker claim, complete with 'no factional kill', on D2. so he could've thought that up in the Night with his buds. the way he threw himself out there to look scummy reminded me of how I played as vengeful, but Shin's game is more jestery.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
where the hell did the stuff in the parenthesis come from?
I already speculated that back in the thread. Shinichi only brought up his roleblocker claim, complete with 'no factional kill', on D2. so he could've thought that up in the Night with his buds. the way he threw himself out there to look scummy reminded me of how I played as vengeful, but Shin's game is more jestery.
are u still inclined to believe that tho? Lmao I can imagine the day when I role jester, I could just be myself lol. Either way Ill be back later... I still would rather keep my vote on Osie, I cant really read this arguement between killjoy and grrr at all.
Why would scumShin + scumIso decide in scumchat, "hurr, let's claim each other's roles so that when one of us flips [likely Iso as he is under the most scrutiny at the moment] the other immediately gets lynched for claiming a member of the scumteam's role!"?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why would scumShin + scumIso decide in scumchat, "hurr, let's claim each other's roles so that when one of us flips [likely Iso as he is under the most scrutiny at the moment] the other immediately gets lynched for claiming a member of the scumteam's role!"?
In what universe would that be a good idea, dawn?
the way you say it sounds like we want to flip you first. what happens if we flip Shinichi first? universe might work if we flip correctly. and there's no Daychat to plan anything. but I kinda think you're truthful about it since...claiming a killing role is risky.
I'm just trying to make sense of Shinichi's behavior, and that roleblocking claim that came AFTER a mislynch when we had a week for him to CC my 'fullclaim'. it doesn't add up. hopefully he doesn't flip vengeful~ but yeah, ain't gonna believe he didn't bring up a counterclaim when facing a mislynch....but joined it instead.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
are u still inclined to believe that tho? Lmao I can imagine the day when I role jester, I could just be myself lol. Either way Ill be back later... I still would rather keep my vote on Osie, I cant really read this arguement between killjoy and grrr at all.
no idea. so I'm just going with the simplest reason: lack of action with his possible counterclaim. even vengeful won't stop me, since I'm fine with dying at this point! the only thing to give me pause is....Shin is as scummy as Grapefruit not claiming..I'll go by brains and if he's content in misleading the town for his ego... I have no words. gawd this town.
I'm not sure about Killjoy/Osie, even in my analysis, so I'm fine with any pressure on them.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
The text in the brackets was just me musing out loud as I was an infinitely more likely lynch toDay than Shinichi was based on the events of Day 1. Regardless, that would be an incredibly dumb plan for us to implement, was my point.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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I'll be completely honest... you're as facepalm-inducing as town as you are as scum. whenever someone seems to know what they're talking about, you become all defensive and cannot differentiate the flow from an informed or uninformed mindset. ..... I've detailed the reasons in my previous posts, read them carefully.
and please, this is only a game.
pfft lynch me with all the fury on earth. it looks like you're taking this game too personally =.=1. scum wouldn't claim killing roles, it's plain scummy, they would be claiming a protective instead. setup-wise, killing roles make things hard on the town or lone neutral. from this I can say that both killing roles have the possibility of town/neutral at worst, town/town at best. Dawn/Shin are claimed roleblockers, and I can see the necessity of scum to have a roleblocker with this many abilities flying around. if we outrule killing abilities, Shinichi is the mafia roleblocker.
2. Azrael = protective. Iso = killing. Shinichi = manipulative.
Dawn = manipulative. not included.there's more sense in town having an extra protective, not a killing or manipulative. the most we can squeeze in is 1 extra town killing, and that leaves Shinichi for the mafia. Azrael, who claimed protective, has more chance of being town than not.
even if Azrael is lying (since scum tends to claim protective rather than killing), I don't see why he would attract unnecessary attention to himself on D1 by re-evaluating things with walls. scum tend to crack under the pressure to perform so they avoid the spotlight, but Azrael has been more and more persistent with each post. the pressure/attention on scum will frighten them - you should know since you've felt the same yourself. it's wine to think scum would be this daring and persistent (and I've said this before in the other game). Azrael is town, clear as day. you're just wining yourself.
3. Osie wasn't just an 'information lynch', he was a scumread. we should've CFD'd him. in the offchance that Osie was town, he already claimed. there would be no regrets that we lynched a claimed neighborizer over someone who never claimed at all. what was so illogical about that? again, you're letting this get to your head.
@Iso
1. I still find it weird for there to be 2 killing roles assigned to town, and how our only claimed doctor has to be a scumread. we have 1 protective who is reviver, and I'm not sure if I count as a protective, so we should have 1 more protective. if Azrael flips town I guess that makes me the next lynch? so you're just going to off the protective roles town has.. can we please focus elsewhere? and likewise your ability activates when you die, my ability activates when I'm ABOUT to die. does this mean I'm a scumread?
2. that's the best I can find. Shinichi was talking about closed (flipless) setups requiring a roleblocker for NKs. he didn't doubt my roleblocker claim, but he wanted to know if I can block NKs, and said he can see the sense in that. it probably led to the talk of no-reveals or something. could work from there.
Be grateful, always."
Fearmongering? I don't know.
-
@dawn: I'm not lynching Az "because he's a protective role". That is a complete and utter misrepresentation of my case against him.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I guess me and you are just destined to butt heads, just like Logic... listen, there are obvious scum tells, and there arent so obvious scum tell... I do not want another mislynch, thats why I am looking at everything... remember how many days we spent mis lynching in Togs' last game, because we looked at obvious scum tells? and instead of going for who was obvious scum, you followed obvious scum tells, to choose your lynch, losing us the game... So please do not tell me what to look at, everything you are suggesting, everything you are telling me, I already know... Once I get back home, Ill answer all the most recent posts... also stop telling me what I think... and again there is nothing wrong with being a little paranoid...
I'm sure Iso/Azrael aren't t/t, either t/s or t/n(eutral). s/n is too good to be true.
and I've been playing the deadline way for a while now.. our lynch options can be the Iso/Azrael pre-flip, but scum are usually guaranteed to win over town whenever they're paired up, or they miraculously survive because scum wants to get mislynches along the way. seen that happen before.
[@Cythare #4966]
in a playerbase of 17, there's bound to be a neutral. with the heavy focus on Azrael/Iso, there's the potential of a neutral....based off the idea that scum wouldn't give themselves so much attention.
sidenote: reaching 5k posts....
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
1) We don't know for sure that there's a neutral
2) It distracts from hunting actual scum
3) Opening this door wide enough gives scum something to engage on that ends up looking like scumhunting
If we stumble upon information that leads us to believe there's a neutral killing role down the line (SK, Hitman) due to a double-kill Night or information that a double-kill Night was prevented, then that's worth revisiting. Otherwise, even if there's another neutral role, it gets in the way of finding the actual scum.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Be grateful, always."
I do know what it is. I'm saying I don't think it applies. We know ONE person targeted him. That does not logically mean that he is the only one who did, and trying to pass it off as that (if he is town) is a great way for scum to suspect widely-town-read Pheonix when before they couldn't.I am therefore not going to dismiss it so quickly as "Occum's Razor.".
@Tom: What does "And if he's scum???" mean? It's obviously possible but not likely given the limited scope of the Track. It provides very limited info.
I don't think Osie did. I certainly didn't.
That's your opinion. I'm not sure that's the case either.
They both dismissed your result as "Occum's Razor" therefore Pheonix is scum which I explained eariler as unlikely given the limited scope of the track. We know that someone targeted DV. That does not mean he is the only one to do so. There's still so much we don't know.
And to dismiss it as "Occum's Razor" is an overly simplistic solution.
Can you base any of your cases on actual behavior instead of claims, claim methodology, and modgaming?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Be grateful, always."
Well i mean if you were lynching him for being a protective role that would be dumb. Exactly why do you want him lynched?
with 17 people its not weird to believe their are neutrals, and lynching a neutral lowers PoE by a slim amount, but gives us little to no post flip information...
True, I did, but you also come off as scummy and manipulative just like Logic, but I wouldnt have gotten that beautiful AtE from you otherwise... lol
How were u the main game solver, when I was like the first to accuse Cross's role of being a lie, and that having two town trackers was weird... I mean ya, you added a lot of the bread to help me push those cases, and lets not forget I was almost a mislynch several days in a row... and no idk how many games you've played with Shin, but he has done this stupid stuff in every game regardless of alignment, stop using the previous game to fuel your reads, yes what he does mainly looks scummy, but in every game I played with him, which I think is like 5 now, he flipped scum once.... and every game he played the same, and wtf kind of trick is this, if it gets him scum read every game...
again Shin is one of the main believers that Mafia and Town never have the same role, which points me to you being the scum, if I ignore everything else about you, because Shin would never claim a role that town already had, its totally against his playstyle...
I have another post incoming after I write it up
oh the obsession that drives me crazy!I already doubted that cop claim, but as always, benefit of doubt should be given to claimers... I only bother about them towards end-game and set my priorities for the phase. town shouldn't worry about the validity of claims in the first place, it only leads to mislynches and needless massclaiming. I seen 2 town 3 scum games from Shinichi so far - there's a fine line if you look hard enough. even if you say he's a believer that town/maf never have the same roles, it doesn't mean he won't fakeclaim to push a mislynch. and thank you very much, that has solidified my scumread on him because I know I'm town.
- from a mechanical standpoint, shouldn't he have counterclaimed to save himself being forced to deal the final vote on Grapefruit?
- from behavior, why hasn't he tried to look beyond me? he never claimed or anything to shut me up and move on to the next person, he's been dawdling and justifying.
and here's his posts, they're hints that he isn't town. I kinda know he will leave hints, since I tend to do the same, and we have similar playstyles.
Be grateful, always."
GrrrOsie
Explain to me again why you both decided to calm to early? (none of this I've said it a million times bs, I want you to tell me again)
Kill and Osie
So you and Osie had a cup of tea last night, exactly what did you talk about? Do you think Osie is scum or town after your tea party? (again I dont care if you already answered this, I want it answered again)
Shin
Why are your posts so bad.....................
WTH is Occum's Razor?
and Occam's Razor is explained in #4954.
Be grateful, always."
Why did you choose Killjoy?
Vote: Killjoy.
Did I miss something, what just happened?
That's the more poignant question to me regarding his response than his approach v LnGrrr.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
U still havent given reason for this grr/tom correlation???
honestly I cant even tell who's defending what in those posts lmao.
@LW, two reasons. One, I was seemingly being scumread by town for my belief that betrayal is scummy in a vacuum. Even my townread were calling me scummy. Two, some of the claims being thrown around didn't match up with my role, which felt quite low power. DBS having a "free" roleblocker, others ant the time saying their abilities were free, just wasn't making any sense to me. So in order to change my trajectory, I needed to explain my role and why I took the stand I did. I also hoped to convince town of my belief, but besides Jenna and maybe Kabazame, I don't think anyone agreed.
I'm ok with a Killjoy lynch. Az too after that weak Shin hop. And probably Last for constantly "forgetting".
Vote Killjoy
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
and thats the explanation of Occams Razor that I wanted, thanks for that I guess...
honestly no one asked for your opinion on the A/B games, it felt like you were trying to control town... maybe that wasnt your attention, but a lot of people saw it that way...
Two, some of the claims being thrown around didn't match up with my role, which felt quite low power. what do you mean here?
Az too after that weak Shin hop Sure I believe this, but I also want to see what he says.
Do you think that Shin/DBS cant both exist as town???
and I thought tom was town most of day 1, and he scum read me? lol, what even is the point of that sentence
I was trying to control town, in the sense I was trying to convince people to default ally. But I have gone over my reasons alkyd infinitum by this point.
I explained why the claims didn't match up with mine, right in that post... many of them claimed no cost. Look at my ability. Does it look strong t you, compared to DBS claim?
Why do you need to see what Az says? He pretty much threw a naked vote on shin... he could've explained it then if he wanted. What do you think of that vote?
I think shin/DBS could both be town. I reserve the right to change my mind later.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1. Do you even remember how many trains there were day 1? Forgive me if I forget reasonings for some of them... I want someone to tell me again their reasoning for something, dont shade me, and just refuse to answer, or answer. Its as simple as that.
2. Except now you know that acting selfish is the only way to get you abilities in decent time, and some people need to be betrayed... So you idea was flawed... and only hurt town...
3. Again I dont see the importance in your ability of yet, or why it costs so high, but Dawn has thresholds, like she needs 1 bp to use her vigi shot, AND I CAN LITERALLY COUNTER HER
4. Because like I answered in Osie's questionaire, I hear everyone out... regardless of what I believe they may flip.
5. I'm really hoping thats the case
lol
where the hell did the stuff in the parenthesis come from?
Be grateful, always."
Then do something other than say "Az scum". It is dumb to lynch the claimed doc and you know that.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
In what universe would that be a good idea, dawn?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
no
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And what did you think of Az's vote? Gut read, before he explains it?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Then I will feel free to keep ignoring your opinions.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I'm just trying to make sense of Shinichi's behavior, and that roleblocking claim that came AFTER a mislynch when we had a week for him to CC my 'fullclaim'. it doesn't add up. hopefully he doesn't flip vengeful~ but yeah, ain't gonna believe he didn't bring up a counterclaim when facing a mislynch....but joined it instead.
Be grateful, always."
I'm not sure about Killjoy/Osie, even in my analysis, so I'm fine with any pressure on them.
Be grateful, always."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player