KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I will state, for whatever it is worth, that I did nothing to DV last night (except the Ally/Ally thing, which I don't think would count as targeting anyway).
Osieorb: Killjoy got a chat
LastWhisper: I didnt do anything last night
LnGrrrR: I didn't use an ability/visit anyone last Night.
Azrael: I did not target DV last night.
Dawningbluesky: Did I visit D_V last night? no. my roleblock ability is activated now though.
Shinichi: Nope, Can't visit anyone till I get 4 bp. I have 2 bp
Tom: I have nothing to claim.
Killjoy: I did not.
Phoenix-Fire: I have nothing relevant for you.
Iso: I don't have any activated abilities. There is nothing for me to claim.
Axelrod: I did nothing to DV last night
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry: (No response)
Kabazame: (No response)
Cythare: (No response)
nonclaimers are joeterry, kaba, cythgido, and osi. jenna didnt really ask osi? i guess that makes sense since we know one thing he did last night but i sort of doubt it would stop him from making a kill.
its, like, pretty likely that one of those 4 or phoenix killed dv.
whisper actually looks pretty good here. hes just popcorning for the watcher claim and isnt even worried about claiming. kind of claims as an afterthought after realizing jenna is a watcher.
joeterry looks like hes setting up to try to salvage getting jenna lynched over himself or a buddy that she caught. especially when he throws out "if jenna is town i wont lose any sleep over it" or something like that. distancing himself from what hes currently pushing.
shin/dawn/iso all claim with an explanation of why they couldnt do anything last night. thats the next most likely on the list imo. like theyre trying to keep their claims straight in their heads.
everyone that just said nope probably ok here.
gonna go ahead and rank the most likely killers of DV as phoenix>joeterry>[kaba/megs/osi]>shin>iso>dawning just based on this
list looks more like megs>osi>phoenix>joe>kaba>iso>dawning>shin with my reads included
also noting that az transitioned into pocketing jenna during this whole thing
its sort of like the opposite of joeterry's reaction where he doubled down on jenna and i want to say these two extremes are more likely to come from scum
also az/jenna probably never w/w from it, though im now pretty sure jenna is just town anyway so
will get to reactions to phoenix claim later and start world building in earnest
or ill do the next chunk now instead of sleeping...
starting from jenna claiming the track on phoenix:
The possibility of tracker gambit did occur to me given the mass-claim format, but I presumed from Terry's reaction that he would have been the tracker target, not Phoenix. Gambit into immediate counter-gambit is...interesting.
Well, I suppose I was looking for more room in my POE. He would have had me, if that's true. Jenna sacrificial play seems somewhat more likely given this choice of target, however.
VOTE JENNA
One gaping hole in your narrative, I don't have any active abilities, just passive; full claim so we can lynch Jenna (Though I'm incredibly unhappy that I'm outed):
I'm Carlos, Town First Responder
Passive:
Scene of the Crime: Whenever a player dies, you will gather info about their role. When their alignment is revealed, as long as you are alive, that info will be public, showing all of their ability details and starting BP. If your BP reaches zero by betrayal, this ability passes to the player who betrayed you. If you die in any other way, it does not pass.
really good look for lngrr here. taking that information and immediately questioning terry with it. i think this holds regardless of phoenix/terry alignments.
not sure what kj is on about. hes responding to a tracker claim with musing about watcher? id say he planned out his response and forgot to change it when jenna was FPSing all along (called it btw, though not the scope of it) except if killjoy planned a response it would be... more. cuz killjoy.
az pretty icky here. he's making this new development fit into his worldview, not modifying his worldview with new information.
@Tom: My thought on Jenna's claim wasn't a track on Pheonix, but a watch on DV. I assumed that's why she asked everyone. She had watched DV and saw someone target him.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Tom: My thought on Jenna's claim wasn't a track on Pheonix, but a watch on DV. I assumed that's why she asked everyone. She had watched DV and saw someone target him.
u weren't the only one that thought that, it crossed me mind also, it was the obvious answer...
Dawningbluesky and Shinichi, the back and forth over the past few pages makes me believe you're both town. The degree of nitpicking combined with the reasonable explanations clears you both in my eyes. You join the ranks of Tom and Phoenix-Fire.
I'm not sure Shinichi has a genuine tunnel, it feels sinister. reasonable explanations doesn't make someone town ~.~
Sure, five or ten reasonable explanations over the course of 4500 posts could be shrugged away, but we're nearing an least twenty at this point, possibly thirty.
....
it really feels redundant whenever Shinichi enters the thread to justify his vote on me, then disappears
oh well
I'll stick with the Osie vote until he appears with a good defense, and not just discredit my calling his posts fluff
.... I think I forgot to tell everyone that.... games with me are always confusing lolol
//copypasta from an old game
vote: Phraze
your theories don't make sense, my head hurts after reading all your post @__@
Why aren't you replying to my post?
This game is giving me a headache..
Were those said by town or mafia? It seems peculiar. I've expressed exhaustion but that is simply because I am staying up far too late to participate. Those seem like attacks at a player without expressing suspicion.
Jenna, I had assumed prior that you were capable of reading. Is that no longer the case?
again, why do you say this?
Jenna is accusing me of being unable to answer, “Who do you think is scum?” when I have quite clearly laid out my scum reads. So...not my problem.
-
@tom: You’re joking, right? “Iso overexplained like he needs to keep his claim straight.” Why wouldn’t I do something infinitely simpler, such as putting a note in my phone, if that were really the case? The point of my “overexplanation” was that Jenna must not have a very good memory if she’s asking if I targeted anybody because I already fullclaimed at that point and nothing that i claimed was an activated ability. I was incredulous that I would even be asked such a stupid question.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
I would rather try to track mafia than attempt this plan.
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
I would rather try to track mafia than attempt this plan.
Oh it wasn't Axel that autovoted Jenna. It was Pheonix. Ok that makes more sense.
Why are so many people fullclaiming D2? That's not good.
I find myself granting extra trust to the people who have come forth unprompted. Most of those still in hiding still need to establish any trust at all.
Oh it wasn't Axel that autovoted Jenna. It was Pheonix. Ok that makes more sense.
Why are so many people fullclaiming D2? That's not good.
I find myself granting extra trust to the people who have come forth unprompted. Most of those still in hiding still need to establish any trust at all.
ya I stated before that there is a chance that some(maybe), but not all mafia are part of the unclaimed... plus we still dont know if there is a tpr.
Honestly, what do you think of Iso's venge claim? The thing is, that its not nesscarily scum or town aligned, but im trying to find the relavence in this game that makes it useful for town...
@Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
Except: (1) Jenna can't track again until she gets back up to at least 3 BP, and even then risks death to do so at 3. (2) DBS can't shoot anyone until she gets down to 1, and that won't be for at least 2 more days even if she gets betrayed every day. (3) IF Phoenix were scum, the plan is all out in the open anyway and the Mafia can defeat it rather easily. Did you think this through for more than 30 seconds?
hmmm.. you halfassed your claim too. you actually said your ability cost 0 BP, but it changed into 4 BP. I guess this means you should fullclaim now. you're not being cooperative until you fullclaim. but I have better things to do with my vote than latch on you~
I want to hear your other suspects outside of me. what do you think about Osie? I saw he's in your suspect list.
Want me to full claim ill do it right now.
Also no i clarified I misread my own role the same as ISO I thought the (4) was X shots I didnt realize the (4) was the cost of ab to use my ability.
yes please. I wanna see your fullclaim.
Phi-Town Manipulator
I have 2 passives
-If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
-If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.
the ally ability makes me think there's always an anti town role blocker of some kind.
Idk if it's dawning, or a third role.
Town/scum or town/scum/neutral or maybe town/town/scum No way the second part of shin's ability exists if the only other manipulative role is also town
I guess I disagree with that? It would be a little bastardy, maybe?
i mean i believe Pheonix's claim but i feel like as helpful as his passive is, he could still be mafia under it, but hell if im taking that chance, if he dies the only thing we will get from death flips is alignment, which then we wouldnt be able to spot fake claims
Nothing honestly could stop him from being mafia, I mean this role is the perfect claim to give to a scum aligned player.
In retrospect, would a moderator really need to step in right now, and not earlier during the night if the mafia team were plotting who targets who? If the mafia have to submit their actions separately and privately from each other, I can believe this. Otherwise Phoenix-Fire is unquestionably town from the error. This isn't how I feel a game should be played, but I think the downside of my lost reaction test is balanced out by Phoenix-Fire being in the clear. I'm willing to move on. Mistakes happen.
WAit I am confused at what your trying to say here, can you clarifiy it better?
Phoenix is town, otherwise this issue would have resolved itself last night. Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill given his special ability is a requirement to use.
I do not follow why you say that Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill last night. I mean, hypothetically, what's the mechanical issue? You would have "tracked" him to DV just as you did, yes?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
Except: (1) Jenna can't track again until she gets back up to at least 3 BP, and even then risks death to do so at 3. (2) DBS can't shoot anyone until she gets down to 1, and that won't be for at least 2 more days even if she gets betrayed every day. (3) IF Phoenix were scum, the plan is all out in the open anyway and the Mafia can defeat it rather easily. Did you think this through for more than 30 seconds?
Also no i clarified I misread my own role the same as ISO I thought the (4) was X shots I didnt realize the (4) was the cost of ab to use my ability.
yes please. I wanna see your fullclaim.
Phi-Town Manipulator
I have 2 passives
-If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
-If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.
the ally ability makes me think there's always an anti town role blocker of some kind.
Idk if it's dawning, or a third role.
Town/scum or town/scum/neutral or maybe town/town/scum No way the second part of shin's ability exists if the only other manipulative role is also town
I guess I disagree with that? It would be a little bastardy, maybe?
Nothing honestly could stop him from being mafia, I mean this role is the perfect claim to give to a scum aligned player.
In retrospect, would a moderator really need to step in right now, and not earlier during the night if the mafia team were plotting who targets who? If the mafia have to submit their actions separately and privately from each other, I can believe this. Otherwise Phoenix-Fire is unquestionably town from the error. This isn't how I feel a game should be played, but I think the downside of my lost reaction test is balanced out by Phoenix-Fire being in the clear. I'm willing to move on. Mistakes happen.
WAit I am confused at what your trying to say here, can you clarifiy it better?
Phoenix is town, otherwise this issue would have resolved itself last night. Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill given his special ability is a requirement to use.
I do not follow why you say that Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill last night. I mean, hypothetically, what's the mechanical issue? You would have "tracked" him to DV just as you did, yes?
uggh u just made me think that this whole incursion with phoenix and jenna might be w/w... why did you have to do that...
@Jenna ya we are assuming mafia all send their actions through pms just like everyone, but that doesnt mean they dont discuss them before hand in there chat. Unless im missing some bigger point here?
I like (or at least can appreciate) what Tom is doing with the reactions to claim. I was going to look at those also, using an assumption that Jenna was Town and that therefore whoever did the NK would have probably felt like they were about to be exposed. Problem is that it doesn't take much competence from scum to avoid incriminating themselves there.
Still, Terry's reaction was the most over the top and his comeback of "I was trying to trap Jenna into lying about me" would seem to be an extremely poor plan doomed to failure before it even began.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I like (or at least can appreciate) what Tom is doing with the reactions to claim. I was going to look at those also, using an assumption that Jenna was Town and that therefore whoever did the NK would have probably felt like they were about to be exposed. Problem is that it doesn't take much competence from scum to avoid incriminating themselves there.
Still, Terry's reaction was the most over the top and his comeback of "I was trying to trap Jenna into lying about me" would seem to be an extremely poor plan doomed to failure before it even began.
its almost so bad to the point, do you think mafia would even do it? Like thinking mafia would fall for it, or thinking that scum would actually try this plan, are both so equally dumb...
@Iso, do you think Jenna is still scum? Do you believe her claim?
I think I do believe her, which is unfortunate, because I still want to lynch her for not actually doing anything useful. Subsequently, I think Phoenix's claim probably makes him scum. I also think that she's not thinking critically because, as Axelrod said, if Phoenix is falseclaiming, how does that stop him from being the one that killed DV?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The possibility of tracker gambit did occur to me given the mass-claim format, but I presumed from Terry's reaction that he would have been the tracker target, not Phoenix. Gambit into immediate counter-gambit is...interesting.
Well, I suppose I was looking for more room in my POE. He would have had me, if that's true. Jenna sacrificial play seems somewhat more likely given this choice of target, however.
VOTE JENNA
One gaping hole in your narrative, I don't have any active abilities, just passive; full claim so we can lynch Jenna (Though I'm incredibly unhappy that I'm outed):
I'm Carlos, Town First Responder
Passive:
Scene of the Crime: Whenever a player dies, you will gather info about their role. When their alignment is revealed, as long as you are alive, that info will be public, showing all of their ability details and starting BP. If your BP reaches zero by betrayal, this ability passes to the player who betrayed you. If you die in any other way, it does not pass.
really good look for lngrr here. taking that information and immediately questioning terry with it. i think this holds regardless of phoenix/terry alignments.
not sure what kj is on about. hes responding to a tracker claim with musing about watcher? id say he planned out his response and forgot to change it when jenna was FPSing all along (called it btw, though not the scope of it) except if killjoy planned a response it would be... more. cuz killjoy.
az pretty icky here. he's making this new development fit into his worldview, not modifying his worldview with new information.
In particular, Axelrod's reaction disgusts me with the level of omniscience to believe that something is wrong, while simultaneously taking no action to either fight for his vision or throw salt into his eyes.
It really isnt. Jenna was a top scumspect going into day 2, she started getting heat, and miraculously claimed to watch someone kill DV, who was one of her top suspects (plus headbutting with) going into night 1. Watchers don't watch their suspects. So how is it hard to believe I thought she was lying scum, so I wanted to test her claim. She passed. What seems dumb, is to think that scum (like you are implying I am), would go through all that and just be like.. nope I guess Jenna isn't lying.
@LW, I highly doubt that scum!Jenna has a bus with scum!Phoenix that early D2. That just makes no sense, especially since Phoenix was widely town-read. I think you can safely eliminate that option.
@Terry, so... you thought Jenna was lying and you were trying to trap her. Ok. Why the pseudo-counter claim? I don't get your plan. If she says she tracked you (and really, that's thinking low of her play), then you claim otherwise, it's a battle between you and her. You probably win, and then she gets lynched. How would that work out for her? Even if she got you lynched, as soon as you flipped town, she would be instalynched D3.
Frankly, for you to believe said plan, you'd have to think Jenna can't think ahead past a Day, AND didn't talk at all with her scum team about any of her plans. That... beggars belief.
EBWODP: My overall point is, how does the pseudo counter-claim carry out your plan any more so than just saying, "Nope, Jenna's lying"?
Here's my current philosophical issue. Been musing about this.
The thing is, from what I've seen and what has been claimed, the BP abilities in this game are: (1) Over-costed, (2) Very Weak, or (3) Both.
Take the "Detective." Our "Cop" started with 3 BP and needed to get to 6 (meaning 7) before he could even get off a single shot. DV said it himself, the chances of getting off multiple shots were minuscule in the extreme. So, in practice, he was like a (very bad) 1-shot Cop who couldn't even use his ability before Night 3 under the best case scenario.
The "Reviver" role needed to get to 7 BP (meaning 8) before he could bring someone back. And even then, they all died together, meaning that any benefit we got from it could be wiped out immediately. That's an end-game ability or never kind of thing.
Iso's claim is weak. Also needs to get to 7 (how many betrayals costing others BP would that be?), and then it's at best a 1 for 1, IF he shoots correctly since he has to die first.
Osie's claim is weak. Pay one to chat? I mean, maybe, if you randomly got paired with someone you were still trying to figure out, you might get a stronger feel for their alignment doing this than you got during the day in the thread, but is it even worth a life point?
LW's claim is weak. Obviously it's BP neutral, give one, someone gets one, but since you can give to scum, and you are always going down, if you're Town it's average negative for the Town overall.
Phoenix's claim is neutral/bad. Basically, if what he says is true, we get information as long as he stays alive (information that in other Bur games was given for free) AND he mucks up Watcher/Tracker results by always going to the dead people.
LnGrrr's role is...okay? At the very least he could use it immediately without risk of dying (4 -> 2). But it seems to me, it only gives useful information in the situation where you have scum/scum A/B pairs, or the scum getting paired with the NK choice, which is the only place someone might lie about whether they allied/betrayed. Seeing Az/Iso get paired up last night was an actual opportunity, I thought, but I can't say it's scummy for him not to have used it. Also QUESTION: I don't remember if you said whether your ability checks to see if your target is betraying just that night, or if your target has ever betrayed at any time the whole game? In any event, this ability also isn't getting used a whole lot.
Shin's abilities aren't terrible. But they are also passive and he doesn't get to choose who he's paired up with. The actual BP ability (pay 4 to chose a different target) is super expensive for what it does - which is not even a Doc. protect or a RB that can stop a NK).
Then we have DBS. Can do nothing at first. Must lose BP to use her abilities. Gaining a RB at 3 BP is decent. Having to go down to 1 BP to gain a vig. shot (and risk instant death to either being betrayed or to the mystery BP stealer) isn't great.
I already claimed my ability was...not good. I'm going to leave it at that for now.
Finally, there's Jenna. And here's my issue. This ability is good. Tracker is good. AND it apparently only costs 2 BP to use. Granted, if she uses it right away she's putting herself at risk of instant death to betrayal, but even so. The cost of this ability is out of whack with basically every other ability that has been claimed.
Basically, one of these things is not like the others.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
Except: (1) Jenna can't track again until she gets back up to at least 3 BP, and even then risks death to do so at 3. (2) DBS can't shoot anyone until she gets down to 1, and that won't be for at least 2 more days even if she gets betrayed every day. (3) IF Phoenix were scum, the plan is all out in the open anyway and the Mafia can defeat it rather easily. Did you think this through for more than 30 seconds?
Also no i clarified I misread my own role the same as ISO I thought the (4) was X shots I didnt realize the (4) was the cost of ab to use my ability.
yes please. I wanna see your fullclaim.
Phi-Town Manipulator
I have 2 passives
-If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
-If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.
the ally ability makes me think there's always an anti town role blocker of some kind.
Idk if it's dawning, or a third role.
Town/scum or town/scum/neutral or maybe town/town/scum No way the second part of shin's ability exists if the only other manipulative role is also town
I guess I disagree with that? It would be a little bastardy, maybe?
Nothing honestly could stop him from being mafia, I mean this role is the perfect claim to give to a scum aligned player.
In retrospect, would a moderator really need to step in right now, and not earlier during the night if the mafia team were plotting who targets who? If the mafia have to submit their actions separately and privately from each other, I can believe this. Otherwise Phoenix-Fire is unquestionably town from the error. This isn't how I feel a game should be played, but I think the downside of my lost reaction test is balanced out by Phoenix-Fire being in the clear. I'm willing to move on. Mistakes happen.
WAit I am confused at what your trying to say here, can you clarifiy it better?
Phoenix is town, otherwise this issue would have resolved itself last night. Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill given his special ability is a requirement to use.
I do not follow why you say that Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill last night. I mean, hypothetically, what's the mechanical issue? You would have "tracked" him to DV just as you did, yes?
In my experience, if you visit twice, you're notified of both visits, even if it's the same person. The report only said Phoenix-Fire visited D_V once. And if he's only allowed to perform one visit per night, that would have been covered in the night meeting, and thus there would have been no need for the moderator to issue a personal correction to Phoenix-Fire during day 2. It would have been done night 1. So, in either circumstance, Phoenix-Fire did not kill D_V.
@Jenna ya we are assuming mafia all send their actions through pms just like everyone, but that doesnt mean they dont discuss them before hand in there chat. Unless im missing some bigger point here?
Even in that case, he would have assumed that he needed to submit no action and the moderator would have pointed it out if he were the killer. As a mafia he would have an airtight cover story. But it's clear that wasn't the case.
would you be willing to take my word for townreading him [Last Whisper] now?
Not your word, but I am not interested in lynching him anymore today, not after how everything went down. Can you talk to me about Last and shin's interactions; do you think they are t-t?
interesting development~ how many people blamed me for mixing up my role but ended up being JUST as clumsy with theirs (and one didn't even claim)? .... what goes around comes around. true story. //with a solemn expression
The difference here is moderator error not player error. Had Phoenix been able to claim correctly, we could have had a battle between him and a mafia that comes forward.And if nobody else came forward then I wouldn't have pursued Phoenix to claim due to his truthfulness.
To be fair, it wasn't a true moderator error, but a lack of clarity by with with how my role interacted with yours, which is why the mod informed me of the mistake.
I do think that the best place to start with this thread is the people that didn't claim/stayed silent while you collected info (I.E. Cyth, kaba, maybe Terry, am I missing anyone?)
-If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
-If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.
I really wish you had not claimed this.
Just because DBS asked you? DBS??? Since when do you do what he says?
why does it matter?
It matters because the Mafia already has more info than the town, so feeling them unnecessary full claim information makes them better able to act upon it, making them more effective and harder for us to deal with.
*another thing is how Shinichi was clueless of factional kills needing to be specified in pm until Tom brought it up, and now he fullclaims with specification.
This is actually a good point, I'm gonna have to go back and read exactly how he reacted to that.
@everyone
let's do Cythare a favor and lynch her! .......IF we get nothing by EoD.
-_-
I kinda don't disagree that that's a lynch that needs to happen probably sooner than later if she doesn't really do anything, but lynching a lurker is kinda frustrating, and it's a bit premature to assume that she won't do anything.
@Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
If I understand my role correctly (a phrase with more gravitas now) I would be seen going to all of them, yes. As far as grapefruit (or any lynch really) there is no mechanical significance for visiting during the day, but my role is still responsible for the full flip info. As far as your plan, yes that would prove my role, but the soonest dawning could even fire is night 4 (?) and I'm not holding my breath that everyone involved would still be alive by then.
Jenna, I had assumed prior that you were capable of reading. Is that no longer the case?
Can you stop with the false bravado? As many posts as there are in this game, why should yours be so memorable? Has anything over the past 500 posts moved the needle on Az, or are you just going to point me to your iso if I ask for anything?
It really isnt. Jenna was a top scumspect going into day 2, she started getting heat, and miraculously claimed to watch someone kill DV, who was one of her top suspects (plus headbutting with) going into night 1. Watchers don't watch their suspects. So how is it hard to believe I thought she was lying scum, so I wanted to test her claim. She passed. What seems dumb, is to think that scum (like you are implying I am), would go through all that and just be like.. nope I guess Jenna isn't lying.
Terry, see, I think you're smart, and that's why I'm actually having a harder time with this than with (some other people's claims/play).
You think Jenna is scum. Fine. DV also did and DV turned up dead last night. That's possibly a point in favor of your theory.
Then Jenna claims that she Watched DV and knows who targeted him.
From where I'm sitting, that's GOLD. That's a no lose situation. Scum-Jenna is clearly about to incriminate a Townie, which is at worst a 1-1 Town/Scum trade. Maybe she's about to bus a buddy in an attempt to gain some cred. and that's still good. All you need to do is sit back and wait. There is ZERO reason to start attacking her there. You just want to let it play out, yes?
Except that's not what you did. You called BS right from the start. You acted like you were assuming she was going to say she saw you target DV. You adamantly refused to confirm/deny whether or not you did so, and then voted for her.
Now, as I'm sure you can understand, this kind of reaction could have come from a scum with a guilty conscience. Someone who "knew" he was caught, and was trying to get out in front of the coming fight. That scenario isn't hard to see at all. It's kind of like the most obvious one.
What's harder to parse is this idea that Town you - positive Jenna was scum - was attempting to bait her into lying about you. What for? How does that do anything? How does it, as you say, "test" her claim?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Phoenix: There is no false bravado. There is literally no reason not to lynch Az toDay. If anything, Az has gotten scummier, and we need to not be distracted by the jabber between dawn, Shin, and LW - which is really making it super easy for the scum to hide - and not forget Az's abominable push against Grapefruit and myself from yesterDay...which it seems most people are choosing to ignore, now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think now is a prudent time to review the suspects.
Positive Energy
osieorb18 - Aside from being active, inquisitive, and calm, there is also the matter of choosing to converse with Killjoy. I would be happy to know the reason for choosing Killjoy as well as the minutes of the conversation. As-is, I see no ill will.
Phoenix-Fire - Clear of all suspicion.
LnGrrrR - A trusted name, though in retrospect I cannot recall the positive efforts done during Day 2. Please enlighten me?
Shinichi - Thirty admissions is enough for trust.
tomsloger - He could have killed me last night and he didn't. He's been sane and sensible since the beginning. He has my full trust.
lastwhisper - I have been able to follow along with LastWhisper and engage in discussions that caused me no disease, dare I say, Positive Vibes.
dawningbluesky - The interactions with Shinichi are virtuous, and the strong D1 defense of Grapefruit, as well as a similar newbie attitude, all point to Dawningbluesky as town.
Confusing Energy
Kabazame - I would like Kabazame to be more active, as his efforts reveal conflicting feelings.
Killjoy - After attacking LnGrrrR early on and being soundly defeated, then taking up Osieorb(?) and being defeated again, I feel like he has drifted aimlessly. How would you assess the experiences you've had during this game? A general, estimated timeline would be greatly appreciated, as I still have yet to read and respond to 25 pages. Also, how did your AB game to last night? I missed that information.
Cythare - There is nothing to say.
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - He has been involved in many controversies. As with my request to Killjoy, a timeline would be appreciated in order to help me make sense of what has happened to you.
Negative Energy
Iso - A troll and a liar. Attempts to understand him have been met with open and extreme hostility. I have disengaged with him entirely.
Azrael - Our creepy uncle has run out of excuses for his behavior.
Axelrod - For every moment I feel like I can come around to Axelrod's viewpoint, there's two or three moments where I am compelled to stand Fifty Feet Away.
I feel okay asking that just because if you're not scum I rather suspect the actual scum would have clued onto it a long time ago.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@LW, I highly doubt that scum!Jenna has a bus with scum!Phoenix that early D2. That just makes no sense, especially since Phoenix was widely town-read. I think you can safely eliminate that option.
@Terry, so... you thought Jenna was lying and you were trying to trap her. Ok. Why the pseudo-counter claim? I don't get your plan. If she says she tracked you (and really, that's thinking low of her play), then you claim otherwise, it's a battle between you and her. You probably win, and then she gets lynched. How would that work out for her? Even if she got you lynched, as soon as you flipped town, she would be instalynched D3.
Frankly, for you to believe said plan, you'd have to think Jenna can't think ahead past a Day, AND didn't talk at all with her scum team about any of her plans. That... beggars belief.
But I didn't counter claim and I didn't think very highly of her play at the time. I only implied that I might counter claim, not once did I ever say I was counter claiming. I did this to ensure that she was being truthful. In my mind, I wanted to bait her into lying and saying that I visited DV, when I didn't, so I could 1 for 1 with her.
But I didn't counter claim and I didn't think very highly of her play at the time. I only implied that I might counter claim, not once did I ever say I was counter claiming. I did this to ensure that she was being truthful. In my mind, I wanted to bait her into lying and saying that I visited DV, when I didn't, so I could 1 for 1 with her.
How is a 1 for 1 with you any different from a 1 for 1 with whoever she was about to lie about? Why insert yourself at all?
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
* Please point out everything I've lied about.
* How is Phoenix cleared of all suspicion? You have once again failed to take into account that he could just be lying about his ability.
* Why would scumtom kill you when you were clearly a prime suspect going into toDay?
It seems to me you're basing half of your reads on your emotions rather than the facts, which suggests to me that you need to re-assess.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
Except: (1) Jenna can't track again until she gets back up to at least 3 BP, and even then risks death to do so at 3. (2) DBS can't shoot anyone until she gets down to 1, and that won't be for at least 2 more days even if she gets betrayed every day. (3) IF Phoenix were scum, the plan is all out in the open anyway and the Mafia can defeat it rather easily. Did you think this through for more than 30 seconds?
-If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
-If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.
the ally ability makes me think there's always an anti town role blocker of some kind.
Idk if it's dawning, or a third role.
Town/scum or town/scum/neutral or maybe town/town/scum No way the second part of shin's ability exists if the only other manipulative role is also town
I guess I disagree with that? It would be a little bastardy, maybe?
In retrospect, would a moderator really need to step in right now, and not earlier during the night if the mafia team were plotting who targets who? If the mafia have to submit their actions separately and privately from each other, I can believe this. Otherwise Phoenix-Fire is unquestionably town from the error. This isn't how I feel a game should be played, but I think the downside of my lost reaction test is balanced out by Phoenix-Fire being in the clear. I'm willing to move on. Mistakes happen.
WAit I am confused at what your trying to say here, can you clarifiy it better?
Phoenix is town, otherwise this issue would have resolved itself last night. Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill given his special ability is a requirement to use.
I do not follow why you say that Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill last night. I mean, hypothetically, what's the mechanical issue? You would have "tracked" him to DV just as you did, yes?
In my experience, if you visit twice, you're notified of both visits, even if it's the same person. The report only said Phoenix-Fire visited D_V once. And if he's only allowed to perform one visit per night, that would have been covered in the night meeting, and thus there would have been no need for the moderator to issue a personal correction to Phoenix-Fire during day 2. It would have been done night 1. So, in either circumstance, Phoenix-Fire did not kill D_V.
It really isnt. Jenna was a top scumspect going into day 2, she started getting heat, and miraculously claimed to watch someone kill DV, who was one of her top suspects (plus headbutting with) going into night 1. Watchers don't watch their suspects. So how is it hard to believe I thought she was lying scum, so I wanted to test her claim. She passed. What seems dumb, is to think that scum (like you are implying I am), would go through all that and just be like.. nope I guess Jenna isn't lying.
Terry, see, I think you're smart, and that's why I'm actually having a harder time with this than with (some other people's claims/play).
You think Jenna is scum. Fine. DV also did and DV turned up dead last night. That's possibly a point in favor of your theory.
Then Jenna claims that she Watched DV and knows who targeted him.
From where I'm sitting, that's GOLD. That's a no lose situation. Scum-Jenna is clearly about to incriminate a Townie, which is at worst a 1-1 Town/Scum trade. Maybe she's about to bus a buddy in an attempt to gain some cred. and that's still good. All you need to do is sit back and wait. There is ZERO reason to start attacking her there. You just want to let it play out, yes?
Except that's not what you did. You called BS right from the start. You acted like you were assuming she was going to say she saw you target DV. You adamantly refused to confirm/deny whether or not you did so, and then voted for her.
Now, as I'm sure you can understand, this kind of reaction could have come from a scum with a guilty conscience. Someone who "knew" he was caught, and was trying to get out in front of the coming fight. That scenario isn't hard to see at all. It's kind of like the most obvious one.
What's harder to parse is this idea that Town you - positive Jenna was scum - was attempting to bait her into lying about you. What for? How does that do anything? How does it, as you say, "test" her claim?
If you think I'm smart, do you think I would have done this as scum?
I was attempting to bait her into lying about me BECAUSE I KNEW SHE WAS LYING... and she was lying, so there's that too. The thing is, her lie was justified and made sense. If she decided to point a finger at me, I was going to unleash unholy fury on her and get the Lynch on scum. That match up is one I win (sorry Jenna) and I walk to bed to get NKed tonight (Yeah!).
Here's my current philosophical issue. Been musing about this.
The thing is, from what I've seen and what has been claimed, the BP abilities in this game are: (1) Over-costed, (2) Very Weak, or (3) Both.
Take the "Detective." Our "Cop" started with 3 BP and needed to get to 6 (meaning 7) before he could even get off a single shot. DV said it himself, the chances of getting off multiple shots were minuscule in the extreme. So, in practice, he was like a (very bad) 1-shot Cop who couldn't even use his ability before Night 3 under the best case scenario.
The "Reviver" role needed to get to 7 BP (meaning 8) before he could bring someone back. And even then, they all died together, meaning that any benefit we got from it could be wiped out immediately. That's an end-game ability or never kind of thing.
Iso's claim is weak. Also needs to get to 7 (how many betrayals costing others BP would that be?), and then it's at best a 1 for 1, IF he shoots correctly since he has to die first.
Osie's claim is weak. Pay one to chat? I mean, maybe, if you randomly got paired with someone you were still trying to figure out, you might get a stronger feel for their alignment doing this than you got during the day in the thread, but is it even worth a life point?
LW's claim is weak. Obviously it's BP neutral, give one, someone gets one, but since you can give to scum, and you are always going down, if you're Town it's average negative for the Town overall.
Phoenix's claim is neutral/bad. Basically, if what he says is true, we get information as long as he stays alive (information that in other Bur games was given for free) AND he mucks up Watcher/Tracker results by always going to the dead people.
LnGrrr's role is...okay? At the very least he could use it immediately without risk of dying (4 -> 2). But it seems to me, it only gives useful information in the situation where you have scum/scum A/B pairs, or the scum getting paired with the NK choice, which is the only place someone might lie about whether they allied/betrayed. Seeing Az/Iso get paired up last night was an actual opportunity, I thought, but I can't say it's scummy for him not to have used it. Also QUESTION: I don't remember if you said whether your ability checks to see if your target is betraying just that night, or if your target has ever betrayed at any time the whole game? In any event, this ability also isn't getting used a whole lot.
Shin's abilities aren't terrible. But they are also passive and he doesn't get to choose who he's paired up with. The actual BP ability (pay 4 to chose a different target) is super expensive for what it does - which is not even a Doc. protect or a RB that can stop a NK).
Then we have DBS. Can do nothing at first. Must lose BP to use her abilities. Gaining a RB at 3 BP is decent. Having to go down to 1 BP to gain a vig. shot (and risk instant death to either being betrayed or to the mystery BP stealer) isn't great.
I already claimed my ability was...not good. I'm going to leave it at that for now.
Finally, there's Jenna. And here's my issue. This ability is good. Tracker is good. AND it apparently only costs 2 BP to use. Granted, if she uses it right away she's putting herself at risk of instant death to betrayal, but even so. The cost of this ability is out of whack with basically every other ability that has been claimed.
Basically, one of these things is not like the others.
@Phoenix: There is no false bravado. There is literally no reason not to lynch Az toDay. If anything, Az has gotten scummier, and we need to not be distracted by the jabber between dawn, Shin, and LW - which is really making it super easy for the scum to hide - and not forget Az's abominable push against Grapefruit and myself from yesterDay...which it seems most people are choosing to ignore, now.
I'm on board with this. He's also attempting to lurk off this pressure as we speak.
I think now is a prudent time to review the suspects.
Positive Energy
osieorb18 - Aside from being active, inquisitive, and calm, there is also the matter of choosing to converse with Killjoy. I would be happy to know the reason for choosing Killjoy as well as the minutes of the conversation. As-is, I see no ill will.
Phoenix-Fire - Clear of all suspicion.
LnGrrrR - A trusted name, though in retrospect I cannot recall the positive efforts done during Day 2. Please enlighten me?
Shinichi - Thirty admissions is enough for trust.
tomsloger - He could have killed me last night and he didn't. He's been sane and sensible since the beginning. He has my full trust.
lastwhisper - I have been able to follow along with LastWhisper and engage in discussions that caused me no disease, dare I say, Positive Vibes.
dawningbluesky - The interactions with Shinichi are virtuous, and the strong D1 defense of Grapefruit, as well as a similar newbie attitude, all point to Dawningbluesky as town.
Confusing Energy
Kabazame - I would like Kabazame to be more active, as his efforts reveal conflicting feelings.
Killjoy - After attacking LnGrrrR early on and being soundly defeated, then taking up Osieorb(?) and being defeated again, I feel like he has drifted aimlessly. How would you assess the experiences you've had during this game? A general, estimated timeline would be greatly appreciated, as I still have yet to read and respond to 25 pages. Also, how did your AB game to last night? I missed that information.
Cythare - There is nothing to say.
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - He has been involved in many controversies. As with my request to Killjoy, a timeline would be appreciated in order to help me make sense of what has happened to you.
Negative Energy
Iso - A troll and a liar. Attempts to understand him have been met with open and extreme hostility. I have disengaged with him entirely.
Azrael - Our creepy uncle has run out of excuses for his behavior.
Axelrod - For every moment I feel like I can come around to Axelrod's viewpoint, there's two or three moments where I am compelled to stand Fifty Feet Away.
Jenna, I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you want a timeline, do it your self. I have scum to catch.
But I didn't counter claim and I didn't think very highly of her play at the time. I only implied that I might counter claim, not once did I ever say I was counter claiming. I did this to ensure that she was being truthful. In my mind, I wanted to bait her into lying and saying that I visited DV, when I didn't, so I could 1 for 1 with her.
How is a 1 for 1 with you any different from a 1 for 1 with whoever she was about to lie about? Why insert yourself at all?
If I lost the 1 v 1 against Jenna today (which I wouldn't have), my role is jank and it's no loss. Jenna gets lynched tomorrow. If I win the 1 v 1 with Jenna (which I would have), I walk and get night killed tonight, which is also ok with me and the game state.
If you think I'm smart, do you think I would have done this as scum?
I mean, even smart scum get caught out. Cops/Watchers/Trackers etc. When that happens, what do you do? Usually, you accuse your accuser of lying about you, yes?
I was attempting to bait her into lying about me BECAUSE I KNEW SHE WAS LYING... and she was lying, so there's that too. The thing is, her lie was justified and made sense. If she decided to point a finger at me, I was going to unleash unholy fury on her and get the Lynch on scum. That match up is one I win (sorry Jenna) and I walk to bed to get NKed tonight (Yeah!).
She was "lying" about being a Watcher when she was actually a Tracker. How does that lie impact anything about your reaction? You're not suggesting that if she had come out and said she tracked someone to DV and she now wanted everyone to admit/dent targeting him you would have seen her truthfullness? I don't see that.
And the entire point of this questioning is: HOW DOES SCUM-JENNA WHO CLEARLY MUST HAVE SOME KIND OF SCUM-PLAN TO MAKE A CLAIM LIKE THAT DECIDE TO ABANDON SAID PLAN AND LIE ABOUT YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR BAITING HER? IN WHAT WORLD DOES THAT HAPPEN?
Also, given you weren't counter-claiming her, how were you going to prove she was lying about you anyway? How were you going to win that fight? (putting aside you being okay about losing and trading 1-1. That happens regardless of who she accuses, yes?)
Your entire attitude about this is bizarre.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I agree that JoeTerry seemed panicky about the whole situation while the claim was going on, but I'm satisfied with his explanation of what he was doing - I feel like if he were scum, he'd have had a much worse explanation.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?
We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
It doesnt matter when they die, or even if their mod killed, as long as phoenix is alive, he gets the information for us... he visited grapefruit as soon as he was lynched...
First of all Dawn still cant shoot anyone, is this some kind of slip? Why are you focused on proving phoenix? did you ever even think he was scummy?
Jenna didn't track him to Grapefruit though, so it's weird. If Dawn can't shoot right now then I misunderstood. I'm not sure how you can see that as a slip. Or would you call when you misunderstood that Iso was claiming vig when he already retracted it a slip too?
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
+1
i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
To be clear I don't think Phoenix is the lynch today. The whole scum team is still alive and his role is too valuable if he's telling the truth. But I do think it's important to discuss it
I think now is a prudent time to review the suspects.
Positive Energy
osieorb18 - Aside from being active, inquisitive, and calm, there is also the matter of choosing to converse with Killjoy. I would be happy to know the reason for choosing Killjoy as well as the minutes of the conversation. As-is, I see no ill will.
Phoenix-Fire - Clear of all suspicion.
LnGrrrR - A trusted name, though in retrospect I cannot recall the positive efforts done during Day 2. Please enlighten me?
Shinichi - Thirty admissions is enough for trust.
tomsloger - He could have killed me last night and he didn't. He's been sane and sensible since the beginning. He has my full trust.
lastwhisper - I have been able to follow along with LastWhisper and engage in discussions that caused me no disease, dare I say, Positive Vibes.
dawningbluesky - The interactions with Shinichi are virtuous, and the strong D1 defense of Grapefruit, as well as a similar newbie attitude, all point to Dawningbluesky as town.
Confusing Energy
Kabazame - I would like Kabazame to be more active, as his efforts reveal conflicting feelings.
Killjoy - After attacking LnGrrrR early on and being soundly defeated, then taking up Osieorb(?) and being defeated again, I feel like he has drifted aimlessly. How would you assess the experiences you've had during this game? A general, estimated timeline would be greatly appreciated, as I still have yet to read and respond to 25 pages. Also, how did your AB game to last night? I missed that information.
Cythare - There is nothing to say.
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - He has been involved in many controversies. As with my request to Killjoy, a timeline would be appreciated in order to help me make sense of what has happened to you.
Negative Energy
Iso - A troll and a liar. Attempts to understand him have been met with open and extreme hostility. I have disengaged with him entirely.
Azrael - Our creepy uncle has run out of excuses for his behavior.
Axelrod - For every moment I feel like I can come around to Axelrod's viewpoint, there's two or three moments where I am compelled to stand Fifty Feet Away.
Jenna, I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you want a timeline, do it your self. I have scum to catch.
Surely it would be a net positive and not too long for you to do. As a token of good faith, here is mine:
I played catch-up until the Day One deadline loomed close, where I paused being Past Jenna at page 22 and vowed to return to that timeline soon. I became engaged in the present and wound up in conversations with many parties. I found myself unable to communicate on a regular basis with Dawningbluesky, LastWhisper, and LnGrrrR in particular. I bemoaned how D_V and Iso played the parts of bullies. And then the day ended without much of a recollection. I submitted my night action and took a break for three days. There was no notification that the day had begun, so, once again, Jenna had to play catch-up. Once caught up, we began the watcher episode which ended recently, and now we are taking stock.
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
+1
i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
To be clear I don't think Phoenix is the lynch today. The whole scum team is still alive and his role is too valuable if he's telling the truth. But I do think it's important to discuss it
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
+1
i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
+1
i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
Did you miss the part where this has been the standard operating procedure for Bur in what looks like virtually every game he's moderated. Having role reveal tied to one player's ability would seem to be the exception here.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
+1
i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
Did you miss the part where this has been the standard operating procedure for Bur in what looks like virtually every game he's moderated. Having role reveal tied to one player's ability would seem to be the exception here.
so we are gunna lynch of an exception? thats just as bad as lynching someone for slightly changing their meta, ya lets say we get scum that way, but god its such a deplorable why to justify a lynch...
i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
Did you miss the part where this has been the standard operating procedure for Bur in what looks like virtually every game he's moderated. Having role reveal tied to one player's ability would seem to be the exception here.
so we are gunna lynch of an exception? thats just as bad as lynching someone for slightly changing their meta, ya lets say we get scum that way, but god its such a deplorable why to justify a lynch...
idk how its alignment indicative but yes this seems a good description of your playstyle
tragic / hopeless. infuriating / stubborn. there is some hope to be had with me at the moment, and I'm not being stubborn - I've even compromised with most of my standards for everyone. my playstyle is simply confusing, and that is verifiable from track record.
what tragically infuriates is the town, or scumteam who're controlling the board, since they have nothing better to do than focus on problematic players. I tend to shift my focus if scum and when someone is getting frustrated, since I do not want to make it an unpleasant experience for the players. ...........on the other hand, the lack of variety tells a lot about the scumteam's capabilities and influence. I can PoE from there. thanks for addressing this!
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Don't forget u game throw
Also I have much of a hate for meta reading is my brother for the exact same reasons as him, it discourages new things, and makes games boring, use it for a basis, but don't make it your whole argument. It's also still just a 50/50 you can easily mislynch town, and in this case we are referring to a mods over game creation meta. Which is an even worse reason to vote someone...
And we recently had to change the rules in Mafia Society, b/c of flavoring game, kudos for catching mafia, but not a fair way to play the game... And again my anger over it was used to Lynch me as the next mafia, so my emotions got me lynched there, and the cycle all began with a little flavor gaming. Was not a fun experience at all...
Dawningbluesky and Shinichi, the back and forth over the past few pages makes me believe you're both town. The degree of nitpicking combined with the reasonable explanations clears you both in my eyes. You join the ranks of Tom and Phoenix-Fire.
I'm not sure Shinichi has a genuine tunnel, it feels sinister. reasonable explanations doesn't make someone town ~.~
Sure, five or ten reasonable explanations over the course of 4500 posts could be shrugged away, but we're nearing an least twenty at this point, possibly thirty.
Shinichi is a player who tends to hammer the brick wall in his conversations. it can easily be misconstrued as reasonable. factually, anyone who refuses to take in the new pieces of information and harbors on the old...is just hammering a brick wall. mind showing me what new pieces of information has changed Shinichi's view of me, for better or worse? in the light of D2, he asked me if I wanted to see his fullclaim, then said it was me who outed him, which shows he isn't taking in any new pieces of information at all.
.... I think I forgot to tell everyone that.... games with me are always confusing lolol
//copypasta from an old game
vote: Phraze
your theories don't make sense, my head hurts after reading all your post @__@
Why aren't you replying to my post?
This game is giving me a headache..
Were those said by town or mafia? It seems peculiar. I've expressed exhaustion but that is simply because I am staying up far too late to participate. Those seem like attacks at a player without expressing suspicion.
they were said from town, to me as town. no malice involved, but I confused everyone enough to give them real headaches.
Here's my current philosophical issue. Been musing about this.
etc etc
I think this setup guarantees everyone would be vanilla/weak at first, but build up to be vital towards end-game. Bur has done this with a cop role before.
lol. I don't gamethrow without a strategy though. and I won't consider that gamethrowing, it's just opting to leave the game early when the stress is too much for me to handle (which is why I rarely play mafia).
Also I have much of a hate for meta reading is my brother for the exact same reasons as him, it discourages new things, and makes games boring, use it for a basis, but don't make it your whole argument. It's also still just a 50/50 you can easily mislynch town, and in this case we are referring to a mods over game creation meta. Which is an even worse reason to vote someone...
And we recently had to change the rules in Mafia Society, b/c of flavoring game, kudos for catching mafia, but not a fair way to play the game... And again my anger over it was used to Lynch me as the next mafia, so my emotions got me lynched there, and the cycle all began with a little flavor gaming. Was not a fun experience at all...
1. what defines meta? it helps to speed up the reading process of players, and get on to the meat of the game. some people use burden of proficiency as the definition of meta, but that's twisted.
2. still at it?? I had to deal with that 2 times as scum, FROM THE SAME PERSON, and never complained. .........get a life. if I can handle 2 times of that and wanna learn how to get around it, there's even less reason for you to cry wolf =.=
would you be willing to take my word for townreading him [Last Whisper] now?
Not your word, but I am not interested in lynching him anymore today, not after how everything went down. Can you talk to me about Last and shin's interactions; do you think they are t-t?
at least you can see my points in townreading him aren't biased. I really wonder why everyone thinks I'm biased...I love everyone in any game I participate in! I can't tell Last/Shin, but they don't seem to be t/t. Shin has concentrated too much on me that I can't get a proper read on him with anyone else.
*another thing is how Shinichi was clueless of factional kills needing to be specified in pm until Tom brought it up, and now he fullclaims with specification.
This is actually a good point, I'm gonna have to go back and read exactly how he reacted to that.
would like to see your take on it. I imagine he would have strong conviction in me if that was the case, but he's only been deflecting and justifying.
@everyone
let's do Cythare a favor and lynch her! .......IF we get nothing by EoD.
-_-
I kinda don't disagree that that's a lynch that needs to happen probably sooner than later if she doesn't really do anything, but lynching a lurker is kinda frustrating, and it's a bit premature to assume that she won't do anything.
well.. only if there's no better options or everyone is disjointed. I hope we won't CFD someone who could have been sorted out earlier.
But I didn't counter claim and I didn't think very highly of her play at the time. I only implied that I might counter claim, not once did I ever say I was counter claiming. I did this to ensure that she was being truthful. In my mind, I wanted to bait her into lying and saying that I visited DV, when I didn't, so I could 1 for 1 with her.
How is a 1 for 1 with you any different from a 1 for 1 with whoever she was about to lie about? Why insert yourself at all?
If I lost the 1 v 1 against Jenna today (which I wouldn't have), my role is jank and it's no loss. Jenna gets lynched tomorrow. If I win the 1 v 1 with Jenna (which I would have), I walk and get night killed tonight, which is also ok with me and the game state.
no offense intended. but can we stop with the martyrdom? I've been wanting to die since I fullclaimed lol~ and that has yet to happen. you haven't claimed yet, so you should have something to live for.
Also I have much of a hate for meta reading is my brother for the exact same reasons as him, it discourages new things, and makes games boring, use it for a basis, but don't make it your whole argument. It's also still just a 50/50 you can easily mislynch town, and in this case we are referring to a mods over game creation meta. Which is an even worse reason to vote someone...
And we recently had to change the rules in Mafia Society, b/c of flavoring game, kudos for catching mafia, but not a fair way to play the game... And again my anger over it was used to Lynch me as the next mafia, so my emotions got me lynched there, and the cycle all began with a little flavor gaming. Was not a fun experience at all...
1. what defines meta? it helps to speed up the reading process of players, and get on to the meat of the game. some people use burden of proficiency as the definition of meta, but that's twisted.
2. still at it?? I had to deal with that 2 times as scum, FROM THE SAME PERSON, and never complained. .........get a life. if I can handle 2 times of that and wanna learn how to get around it, there's even less reason for you to cry wolf =.=
just because u did nothing about it doesn't make it less wrong... And if you never speak up then it will happen again and again, because the person has no reason to believe it's cheating...
But I didn't counter claim and I didn't think very highly of her play at the time. I only implied that I might counter claim, not once did I ever say I was counter claiming. I did this to ensure that she was being truthful. In my mind, I wanted to bait her into lying and saying that I visited DV, when I didn't, so I could 1 for 1 with her.
How is a 1 for 1 with you any different from a 1 for 1 with whoever she was about to lie about? Why insert yourself at all?
If I lost the 1 v 1 against Jenna today (which I wouldn't have), my role is jank and it's no loss. Jenna gets lynched tomorrow. If I win the 1 v 1 with Jenna (which I would have), I walk and get night killed tonight, which is also ok with me and the game state.
no offense intended. but can we stop with the martyrdom? I've been wanting to die since I fullclaimed lol~ and that has yet to happen. you haven't claimed yet, so you should have something to live for.
and this again, I was ok with dying day 1 cause I thought it would help people with their PoEs, I am not ok with dying now, and wtf do you mean he has something to live for???
Reading back through Az's ISO. So here's my stream of thought as I read it:
First post, claims Insta-dead if someone betrays him. Trying to insist that no one betray with out prior agreement and then says to be sure we reveal all the role info too so scum can learn all the Pos. On the surface that something that people write off as TSTBS, but I'm starting to think it's a double reverse.
Claims LW is Insta-readable scum.
Then he starts pocketing me when it turns into me vs. LW. I pick up on this, but he continues. He's also white knighting me when PF comes in with a push against me.
He takes KJ off his list of scum and puts DV on there, but then rescinds that comment and goes back to calling KJ scum.
When ISO calls Az out on his lack of effort, Az says he's intentionally being lucky so mafia doesn't kill him.
Then he starts his Scum claiming game, which bugs me a lot.
There is a certain amount of banter between ISO and Az up until this point Az seems to trust ISO. Az even said he would let ISO betray him if it wouldn't kill him, but then all of a sudden ISO is in his scum list with the reason being: "Unsure what to make of low-level activity, or posts thus far. Does not appear to be focused on info-generation, however.", which is pretty close to what ISO was saying about Az earlier, when Az responded that he was intentionally keeping a low profile.
Again claims scum... I hate this
Swears that LW is scum, but then jumps on the LNG wagon, who he did have I his scum pile earlier. His reason was that LNG seemed to be derailing the LW Lynch.
Again claims scum... I hate this
Hops back to LW, but I'm starting to notice that when he switches wagons, he makes a call to action, like "Everybody follow me to this great Lynch!"
Makes a post about how bad he has been lately, feels like he's excusing pushing mislynches.
Hops over to GF wagon.
DBS claims, he seems surprised and jealous that DBS has multiple abilities and still wants the LW Lynch.
Hops onto LNG hoping to ty the ISO wagon. Which weird considering ISO was another of one of his scum reads.
Barns me on wanting to Lynch, LW, DBS or Jenna. Hops onto DBS.
Again claims scum... I hate this, but also excuses his lack of productivity again. These constant apologies strike me as another scum tell, that I personally have been guilty of in my last scum game.
Hops onto Jenna.
Hops onto LW.
Town reads LW for post volume, but his vote is still on LW.
Hops onto Grapefruit. The case doesn't hold water when I first read it and it obviously doesn't when Grape flipped town.
Town clears LNG
Town clears Phoenix
Town Clears KJ
Lynch POE list: "Megs, Jenna, Tom, Axel, Iso, and (absolutely scum:) Grape. "
When I push DBS hard, Az pushes back and says I misrepresented him.
Parrots Tom's reading of ISO, but still calls him scum for not actually voting ISO.
Defends DBS from scum accusations by citing post volume. He did that for LW too. Also avoids answering about my case against DBS.
Pushes Jenna harder but doesn't move vote off GF (Case Post)
Pushes ISO harder but doesn't move off grape (Case Post)
Town clears Axel
Hops onto ISO: "Scum: Iso, Jenna, Grapefruit, Tom. Most scummy, to least scummy." Call to arms
Defends DBS more
Keeps pushing his scum hard, but mostly ISO, Jenna and GF
Hops onto Jenna, call to arms.
Makes a big post on the type of scum player Jenna is, which includes comments like:
"Then there are your scum like Jenna - the ones who are focused purely on their own survival above everything else. The ones who go out of their way not to stick out. But in so doing, they fail to behave like townies should. They fail to scum-hunt. They fail to comment. They fail to take positions. They fail to have genuine reactions to things that happen. That's what you need to be looking for in Jenna's case. Someone who is so caught up in trying to fade into the background and remain unnoticed, that she has nothing to contribute to the town's scum-hunting effort. Someone who is trying to hide."
So why is he so surprised when I call BS on Jenna Day 2?
Says LW is town because: "LW is belligerent, hostile, overreacts to people to attacking him, and emotional. Those traits can make him tough to read, because they read like the scum emotional profile to pressure.", but when I do the same thing he posts some BS forced case on me.
Scumslips that he knows GF is town:
"GF isn't really forcing anyone to do anything. He''s just trying to either nudge them in the direction he wants them to go, or score townie participation points by disagreeing with other townies. " He corrects it the next post, but this is pretty obvious especially because he felt necessary to correct it.
His top 2 scum suspects by the end of the day were ISO and Grape, but his accusations on them aren't actually based on much, it's based on lack of perceived greatness. He's not pushing players that have done scummy things, he's pushing players that he is painting as not doing townie things.
Hops onto ISO.
Defends KJ again
Pocket attempt on me again.
Hops onto Grape, but after screaming bloody murder and ISO is lock scum, he says that he wants to give ISO a chance.
Again points out how scummy Jenna is but not worth switching off of grape. I seem to remember Az calling Tom scum for saying someone is scummy but not really meaning it.
Makes a huge post about how Grape is scum, but the problem is I read the whole thing and didnt' really see the reasoning, like at all. It's a huge wall of a post, that I didn't see how it equated to being grape scum at all.
Defends LW
Hops onto ISO
Defends LW more
Hops onto GF.
Pushes GF over ISO
END DAY 1
TLDR: I didn't like his early pocket attempt on me. I didn't like his 180 on ISO, especially the double standard he held him to, when he himself had admitted to not being productive. I hated his "I'm totally scum" schtick, it feels like he's scum saying that to be able to joke about it post game and when people call him on it in game, he wants to play the TSTBS card. None of his case made sense to me except for the one on Jenna, who when she does something very scummy Day 2 he doesn't even bat an eye at and instead comes after me, with a very weak case. I still think ISO is town due to the claim town slip. I think Az legitimately slipped when he said:
GF isn't really forcing anyone to do anything. He''s just trying to either nudge them in the direction he wants them to go, or score townie participation points by disagreeing with other townies.
But the biggest problem I see is that, he mostly spends time talking about how players are town, which is easy to do as scum. It's harder to build a case on a townie as scum and I think that's why all of the "Scum Cases" he's built seem so flimsy.
Also please note that Day 1 his ISO was about 12.5 pages, when he started getting pressure end of Day 1 and the start of Day 2, his ISO has dropped to 2.5 pages. Granted we are only half way through the day phase, but if we correct for that, he will only be at 5 pages.
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Why are so many people fullclaiming D2? That's not good.
starting here:
reactions:
its, like, pretty likely that one of those 4 or phoenix killed dv.
whisper actually looks pretty good here. hes just popcorning for the watcher claim and isnt even worried about claiming. kind of claims as an afterthought after realizing jenna is a watcher.
joeterry looks like hes setting up to try to salvage getting jenna lynched over himself or a buddy that she caught. especially when he throws out "if jenna is town i wont lose any sleep over it" or something like that. distancing himself from what hes currently pushing.
shin/dawn/iso all claim with an explanation of why they couldnt do anything last night. thats the next most likely on the list imo. like theyre trying to keep their claims straight in their heads.
everyone that just said nope probably ok here.
gonna go ahead and rank the most likely killers of DV as phoenix>joeterry>[kaba/megs/osi]>shin>iso>dawning just based on this
list looks more like megs>osi>phoenix>joe>kaba>iso>dawning>shin with my reads included
also noting that az transitioned into pocketing jenna during this whole thing
its sort of like the opposite of joeterry's reaction where he doubled down on jenna and i want to say these two extremes are more likely to come from scum
also az/jenna probably never w/w from it, though im now pretty sure jenna is just town anyway so
will get to reactions to phoenix claim later and start world building in earnest
or ill do the next chunk now instead of sleeping...
starting from jenna claiming the track on phoenix:
really good look for lngrr here. taking that information and immediately questioning terry with it. i think this holds regardless of phoenix/terry alignments.
not sure what kj is on about. hes responding to a tracker claim with musing about watcher? id say he planned out his response and forgot to change it when jenna was FPSing all along (called it btw, though not the scope of it) except if killjoy planned a response it would be... more. cuz killjoy.
az pretty icky here. he's making this new development fit into his worldview, not modifying his worldview with new information.
It's possible he may not understand your vote?
You gave me a genuine smile. Thank you.
Were those said by town or mafia? It seems peculiar. I've expressed exhaustion but that is simply because I am staying up far too late to participate. Those seem like attacks at a player without expressing suspicion.
I certainly don't. Though Kabazame's elusiveness makes it difficult to retain a positive feeling toward him.
Jenna is accusing me of being unable to answer, “Who do you think is scum?” when I have quite clearly laid out my scum reads. So...not my problem.
-
@tom: You’re joking, right? “Iso overexplained like he needs to keep his claim straight.” Why wouldn’t I do something infinitely simpler, such as putting a note in my phone, if that were really the case? The point of my “overexplanation” was that Jenna must not have a very good memory if she’s asking if I targeted anybody because I already fullclaimed at that point and nothing that i claimed was an activated ability. I was incredulous that I would even be asked such a stupid question.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Honestly, what do you think of Iso's venge claim? The thing is, that its not nesscarily scum or town aligned, but im trying to find the relavence in this game that makes it useful for town...
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Except: (1) Jenna can't track again until she gets back up to at least 3 BP, and even then risks death to do so at 3. (2) DBS can't shoot anyone until she gets down to 1, and that won't be for at least 2 more days even if she gets betrayed every day. (3) IF Phoenix were scum, the plan is all out in the open anyway and the Mafia can defeat it rather easily. Did you think this through for more than 30 seconds?
I guess I disagree with that? It would be a little bastardy, maybe?
I do not follow why you say that Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill last night. I mean, hypothetically, what's the mechanical issue? You would have "tracked" him to DV just as you did, yes?
Still, Terry's reaction was the most over the top and his comeback of "I was trying to trap Jenna into lying about me" would seem to be an extremely poor plan doomed to failure before it even began.
I think I do believe her, which is unfortunate, because I still want to lynch her for not actually doing anything useful. Subsequently, I think Phoenix's claim probably makes him scum. I also think that she's not thinking critically because, as Axelrod said, if Phoenix is falseclaiming, how does that stop him from being the one that killed DV?
But I still want to lynch Az toDay.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Terry, so... you thought Jenna was lying and you were trying to trap her. Ok. Why the pseudo-counter claim? I don't get your plan. If she says she tracked you (and really, that's thinking low of her play), then you claim otherwise, it's a battle between you and her. You probably win, and then she gets lynched. How would that work out for her? Even if she got you lynched, as soon as you flipped town, she would be instalynched D3.
Frankly, for you to believe said plan, you'd have to think Jenna can't think ahead past a Day, AND didn't talk at all with her scum team about any of her plans. That... beggars belief.
EBWODP: My overall point is, how does the pseudo counter-claim carry out your plan any more so than just saying, "Nope, Jenna's lying"?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
The thing is, from what I've seen and what has been claimed, the BP abilities in this game are: (1) Over-costed, (2) Very Weak, or (3) Both.
Take the "Detective." Our "Cop" started with 3 BP and needed to get to 6 (meaning 7) before he could even get off a single shot. DV said it himself, the chances of getting off multiple shots were minuscule in the extreme. So, in practice, he was like a (very bad) 1-shot Cop who couldn't even use his ability before Night 3 under the best case scenario.
The "Reviver" role needed to get to 7 BP (meaning 8) before he could bring someone back. And even then, they all died together, meaning that any benefit we got from it could be wiped out immediately. That's an end-game ability or never kind of thing.
Iso's claim is weak. Also needs to get to 7 (how many betrayals costing others BP would that be?), and then it's at best a 1 for 1, IF he shoots correctly since he has to die first.
Osie's claim is weak. Pay one to chat? I mean, maybe, if you randomly got paired with someone you were still trying to figure out, you might get a stronger feel for their alignment doing this than you got during the day in the thread, but is it even worth a life point?
LW's claim is weak. Obviously it's BP neutral, give one, someone gets one, but since you can give to scum, and you are always going down, if you're Town it's average negative for the Town overall.
Phoenix's claim is neutral/bad. Basically, if what he says is true, we get information as long as he stays alive (information that in other Bur games was given for free) AND he mucks up Watcher/Tracker results by always going to the dead people.
LnGrrr's role is...okay? At the very least he could use it immediately without risk of dying (4 -> 2). But it seems to me, it only gives useful information in the situation where you have scum/scum A/B pairs, or the scum getting paired with the NK choice, which is the only place someone might lie about whether they allied/betrayed. Seeing Az/Iso get paired up last night was an actual opportunity, I thought, but I can't say it's scummy for him not to have used it. Also QUESTION: I don't remember if you said whether your ability checks to see if your target is betraying just that night, or if your target has ever betrayed at any time the whole game? In any event, this ability also isn't getting used a whole lot.
Shin's abilities aren't terrible. But they are also passive and he doesn't get to choose who he's paired up with. The actual BP ability (pay 4 to chose a different target) is super expensive for what it does - which is not even a Doc. protect or a RB that can stop a NK).
Then we have DBS. Can do nothing at first. Must lose BP to use her abilities. Gaining a RB at 3 BP is decent. Having to go down to 1 BP to gain a vig. shot (and risk instant death to either being betrayed or to the mystery BP stealer) isn't great.
I already claimed my ability was...not good. I'm going to leave it at that for now.
Finally, there's Jenna. And here's my issue. This ability is good. Tracker is good. AND it apparently only costs 2 BP to use. Granted, if she uses it right away she's putting herself at risk of instant death to betrayal, but even so. The cost of this ability is out of whack with basically every other ability that has been claimed.
Basically, one of these things is not like the others.
I do think that the best place to start with this thread is the people that didn't claim/stayed silent while you collected info (I.E. Cyth, kaba, maybe Terry, am I missing anyone?)It matters because the Mafia already has more info than the town, so feeling them unnecessary full claim information makes them better able to act upon it, making them more effective and harder for us to deal with.This is actually a good point, I'm gonna have to go back and read exactly how he reacted to that.-_-
I kinda don't disagree that that's a lynch that needs to happen probably sooner than later if she doesn't really do anything, but lynching a lurker is kinda frustrating, and it's a bit premature to assume that she won't do anything.If I understand my role correctly (a phrase with more gravitas now) I would be seen going to all of them, yes. As far as grapefruit (or any lynch really) there is no mechanical significance for visiting during the day, but my role is still responsible for the full flip info. As far as your plan, yes that would prove my role, but the soonest dawning could even fire is night 4 (?) and I'm not holding my breath that everyone involved would still be alive by then.Jenna may be difficult to parse and her posting style leaves something to be desired at times, but calling her a troll is just not a fair assessment.Can you stop with the false bravado? As many posts as there are in this game, why should yours be so memorable? Has anything over the past 500 posts moved the needle on Az, or are you just going to point me to your iso if I ask for anything?
Terry, see, I think you're smart, and that's why I'm actually having a harder time with this than with (some other people's claims/play).
You think Jenna is scum. Fine. DV also did and DV turned up dead last night. That's possibly a point in favor of your theory.
Then Jenna claims that she Watched DV and knows who targeted him.
From where I'm sitting, that's GOLD. That's a no lose situation. Scum-Jenna is clearly about to incriminate a Townie, which is at worst a 1-1 Town/Scum trade. Maybe she's about to bus a buddy in an attempt to gain some cred. and that's still good. All you need to do is sit back and wait. There is ZERO reason to start attacking her there. You just want to let it play out, yes?
Except that's not what you did. You called BS right from the start. You acted like you were assuming she was going to say she saw you target DV. You adamantly refused to confirm/deny whether or not you did so, and then voted for her.
Now, as I'm sure you can understand, this kind of reaction could have come from a scum with a guilty conscience. Someone who "knew" he was caught, and was trying to get out in front of the coming fight. That scenario isn't hard to see at all. It's kind of like the most obvious one.
What's harder to parse is this idea that Town you - positive Jenna was scum - was attempting to bait her into lying about you. What for? How does that do anything? How does it, as you say, "test" her claim?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Positive Energy
osieorb18 - Aside from being active, inquisitive, and calm, there is also the matter of choosing to converse with Killjoy. I would be happy to know the reason for choosing Killjoy as well as the minutes of the conversation. As-is, I see no ill will.
Phoenix-Fire - Clear of all suspicion.
LnGrrrR - A trusted name, though in retrospect I cannot recall the positive efforts done during Day 2. Please enlighten me?
Shinichi - Thirty admissions is enough for trust.
tomsloger - He could have killed me last night and he didn't. He's been sane and sensible since the beginning. He has my full trust.
lastwhisper - I have been able to follow along with LastWhisper and engage in discussions that caused me no disease, dare I say, Positive Vibes.
dawningbluesky - The interactions with Shinichi are virtuous, and the strong D1 defense of Grapefruit, as well as a similar newbie attitude, all point to Dawningbluesky as town.
Confusing Energy
Kabazame - I would like Kabazame to be more active, as his efforts reveal conflicting feelings.
Killjoy - After attacking LnGrrrR early on and being soundly defeated, then taking up Osieorb(?) and being defeated again, I feel like he has drifted aimlessly. How would you assess the experiences you've had during this game? A general, estimated timeline would be greatly appreciated, as I still have yet to read and respond to 25 pages. Also, how did your AB game to last night? I missed that information.
Cythare - There is nothing to say.
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - He has been involved in many controversies. As with my request to Killjoy, a timeline would be appreciated in order to help me make sense of what has happened to you.
Negative Energy
Iso - A troll and a liar. Attempts to understand him have been met with open and extreme hostility. I have disengaged with him entirely.
Azrael - Our creepy uncle has run out of excuses for his behavior.
Axelrod - For every moment I feel like I can come around to Axelrod's viewpoint, there's two or three moments where I am compelled to stand Fifty Feet Away.
Man, are YOU the actual Watcher?
I feel okay asking that just because if you're not scum I rather suspect the actual scum would have clued onto it a long time ago.
How is a 1 for 1 with you any different from a 1 for 1 with whoever she was about to lie about? Why insert yourself at all?
* Please point out everything I've lied about.
* How is Phoenix cleared of all suspicion? You have once again failed to take into account that he could just be lying about his ability.
* Why would scumtom kill you when you were clearly a prime suspect going into toDay?
It seems to me you're basing half of your reads on your emotions rather than the facts, which suggests to me that you need to re-assess.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If you think I'm smart, do you think I would have done this as scum?
I was attempting to bait her into lying about me BECAUSE I KNEW SHE WAS LYING... and she was lying, so there's that too. The thing is, her lie was justified and made sense. If she decided to point a finger at me, I was going to unleash unholy fury on her and get the Lynch on scum. That match up is one I win (sorry Jenna) and I walk to bed to get NKed tonight (Yeah!).
FWIW, my ability is jank too.
I'm on board with this. He's also attempting to lurk off this pressure as we speak.
Jenna, I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you want a timeline, do it your self. I have scum to catch.
If I lost the 1 v 1 against Jenna today (which I wouldn't have), my role is jank and it's no loss. Jenna gets lynched tomorrow. If I win the 1 v 1 with Jenna (which I would have), I walk and get night killed tonight, which is also ok with me and the game state.
She was "lying" about being a Watcher when she was actually a Tracker. How does that lie impact anything about your reaction? You're not suggesting that if she had come out and said she tracked someone to DV and she now wanted everyone to admit/dent targeting him you would have seen her truthfullness? I don't see that.
And the entire point of this questioning is: HOW DOES SCUM-JENNA WHO CLEARLY MUST HAVE SOME KIND OF SCUM-PLAN TO MAKE A CLAIM LIKE THAT DECIDE TO ABANDON SAID PLAN AND LIE ABOUT YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR BAITING HER? IN WHAT WORLD DOES THAT HAPPEN?
Also, given you weren't counter-claiming her, how were you going to prove she was lying about you anyway? How were you going to win that fight? (putting aside you being okay about losing and trading 1-1. That happens regardless of who she accuses, yes?)
Your entire attitude about this is bizarre.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Jenna didn't track him to Grapefruit though, so it's weird. If Dawn can't shoot right now then I misunderstood. I'm not sure how you can see that as a slip. Or would you call when you misunderstood that Iso was claiming vig when he already retracted it a slip too?
Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.
+1
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I played catch-up until the Day One deadline loomed close, where I paused being Past Jenna at page 22 and vowed to return to that timeline soon. I became engaged in the present and wound up in conversations with many parties. I found myself unable to communicate on a regular basis with Dawningbluesky, LastWhisper, and LnGrrrR in particular. I bemoaned how D_V and Iso played the parts of bullies. And then the day ended without much of a recollection. I submitted my night action and took a break for three days. There was no notification that the day had begun, so, once again, Jenna had to play catch-up. Once caught up, we began the watcher episode which ended recently, and now we are taking stock.
This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
+1
And if that person is the mod?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*off an exception
*deplorable way
what tragically infuriates is the town, or scumteam who're controlling the board, since they have nothing better to do than focus on problematic players. I tend to shift my focus if scum and when someone is getting frustrated, since I do not want to make it an unpleasant experience for the players. ...........on the other hand, the lack of variety tells a lot about the scumteam's capabilities and influence. I can PoE from there. thanks for addressing this!
Be grateful, always."
Also I have much of a hate for meta reading is my brother for the exact same reasons as him, it discourages new things, and makes games boring, use it for a basis, but don't make it your whole argument. It's also still just a 50/50 you can easily mislynch town, and in this case we are referring to a mods over game creation meta. Which is an even worse reason to vote someone...
And we recently had to change the rules in Mafia Society, b/c of flavoring game, kudos for catching mafia, but not a fair way to play the game... And again my anger over it was used to Lynch me as the next mafia, so my emotions got me lynched there, and the cycle all began with a little flavor gaming. Was not a fun experience at all...
they were said from town, to me as town. no malice involved, but I confused everyone enough to give them real headaches.
I think this setup guarantees everyone would be vanilla/weak at first, but build up to be vital towards end-game. Bur has done this with a cop role before.
lol. I don't gamethrow without a strategy though. and I won't consider that gamethrowing, it's just opting to leave the game early when the stress is too much for me to handle (which is why I rarely play mafia).
1. what defines meta? it helps to speed up the reading process of players, and get on to the meat of the game. some people use burden of proficiency as the definition of meta, but that's twisted.
2. still at it?? I had to deal with that 2 times as scum, FROM THE SAME PERSON, and never complained. .........get a life. if I can handle 2 times of that and wanna learn how to get around it, there's even less reason for you to cry wolf =.=
at least you can see my points in townreading him aren't biased. I really wonder why everyone thinks I'm biased...I love everyone in any game I participate in! I can't tell Last/Shin, but they don't seem to be t/t. Shin has concentrated too much on me that I can't get a proper read on him with anyone else.
would like to see your take on it. I imagine he would have strong conviction in me if that was the case, but he's only been deflecting and justifying.
well.. only if there's no better options or everyone is disjointed. I hope we won't CFD someone who could have been sorted out earlier.
no offense intended. but can we stop with the martyrdom? I've been wanting to die since I fullclaimed lol~ and that has yet to happen. you haven't claimed yet, so you should have something to live for.
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Claims LW is Insta-readable scum.
Then he starts pocketing me when it turns into me vs. LW. I pick up on this, but he continues. He's also white knighting me when PF comes in with a push against me.
He takes KJ off his list of scum and puts DV on there, but then rescinds that comment and goes back to calling KJ scum.
When ISO calls Az out on his lack of effort, Az says he's intentionally being lucky so mafia doesn't kill him.
Then he starts his Scum claiming game, which bugs me a lot.
There is a certain amount of banter between ISO and Az up until this point Az seems to trust ISO. Az even said he would let ISO betray him if it wouldn't kill him, but then all of a sudden ISO is in his scum list with the reason being: "Unsure what to make of low-level activity, or posts thus far. Does not appear to be focused on info-generation, however.", which is pretty close to what ISO was saying about Az earlier, when Az responded that he was intentionally keeping a low profile.
Again claims scum... I hate this
Swears that LW is scum, but then jumps on the LNG wagon, who he did have I his scum pile earlier. His reason was that LNG seemed to be derailing the LW Lynch.
Again claims scum... I hate this
Hops back to LW, but I'm starting to notice that when he switches wagons, he makes a call to action, like "Everybody follow me to this great Lynch!"
Makes a post about how bad he has been lately, feels like he's excusing pushing mislynches.
Hops over to GF wagon.
DBS claims, he seems surprised and jealous that DBS has multiple abilities and still wants the LW Lynch.
Hops onto LNG hoping to ty the ISO wagon. Which weird considering ISO was another of one of his scum reads.
Barns me on wanting to Lynch, LW, DBS or Jenna. Hops onto DBS.
Again claims scum... I hate this, but also excuses his lack of productivity again. These constant apologies strike me as another scum tell, that I personally have been guilty of in my last scum game.
Hops onto Jenna.
Hops onto LW.
Town reads LW for post volume, but his vote is still on LW.
Hops onto Grapefruit. The case doesn't hold water when I first read it and it obviously doesn't when Grape flipped town.
Town clears LNG
Town clears Phoenix
Town Clears KJ
Lynch POE list: "Megs, Jenna, Tom, Axel, Iso, and (absolutely scum:) Grape. "
When I push DBS hard, Az pushes back and says I misrepresented him.
Parrots Tom's reading of ISO, but still calls him scum for not actually voting ISO.
Defends DBS from scum accusations by citing post volume. He did that for LW too. Also avoids answering about my case against DBS.
Pushes Jenna harder but doesn't move vote off GF (Case Post)
Pushes ISO harder but doesn't move off grape (Case Post)
Town clears Axel
Hops onto ISO: "Scum: Iso, Jenna, Grapefruit, Tom. Most scummy, to least scummy." Call to arms
Defends DBS more
Keeps pushing his scum hard, but mostly ISO, Jenna and GF
Hops onto Jenna, call to arms.
Makes a big post on the type of scum player Jenna is, which includes comments like:
"Then there are your scum like Jenna - the ones who are focused purely on their own survival above everything else. The ones who go out of their way not to stick out. But in so doing, they fail to behave like townies should. They fail to scum-hunt. They fail to comment. They fail to take positions. They fail to have genuine reactions to things that happen. That's what you need to be looking for in Jenna's case. Someone who is so caught up in trying to fade into the background and remain unnoticed, that she has nothing to contribute to the town's scum-hunting effort. Someone who is trying to hide."
So why is he so surprised when I call BS on Jenna Day 2?
Says LW is town because: "LW is belligerent, hostile, overreacts to people to attacking him, and emotional. Those traits can make him tough to read, because they read like the scum emotional profile to pressure.", but when I do the same thing he posts some BS forced case on me.
Scumslips that he knows GF is town:
"GF isn't really forcing anyone to do anything. He''s just trying to either nudge them in the direction he wants them to go, or score townie participation points by disagreeing with other townies. " He corrects it the next post, but this is pretty obvious especially because he felt necessary to correct it.
His top 2 scum suspects by the end of the day were ISO and Grape, but his accusations on them aren't actually based on much, it's based on lack of perceived greatness. He's not pushing players that have done scummy things, he's pushing players that he is painting as not doing townie things.
Hops onto ISO.
Defends KJ again
Pocket attempt on me again.
Hops onto Grape, but after screaming bloody murder and ISO is lock scum, he says that he wants to give ISO a chance.
Again points out how scummy Jenna is but not worth switching off of grape. I seem to remember Az calling Tom scum for saying someone is scummy but not really meaning it.
Makes a huge post about how Grape is scum, but the problem is I read the whole thing and didnt' really see the reasoning, like at all. It's a huge wall of a post, that I didn't see how it equated to being grape scum at all.
Defends LW
Hops onto ISO
Defends LW more
Hops onto GF.
Pushes GF over ISO
END DAY 1
But the biggest problem I see is that, he mostly spends time talking about how players are town, which is easy to do as scum. It's harder to build a case on a townie as scum and I think that's why all of the "Scum Cases" he's built seem so flimsy.
Also please note that Day 1 his ISO was about 12.5 pages, when he started getting pressure end of Day 1 and the start of Day 2, his ISO has dropped to 2.5 pages. Granted we are only half way through the day phase, but if we correct for that, he will only be at 5 pages.