As of page 9 DV is town, LnGrrrR is still scum but KJ can be too. Osie is probably town as well. I am confused on Wisp, going to reread a couple of his games.
I don't understand at all how both Wisp and DawningBlue both see Terry asking people not to hijack questions as a personal attack. That's normal mafia operating procedure. People ask specific people questions. Others taking them usually means that someone is trying to protect that person or push a narrative. It's mostly a scum+ play.
Though I agree the reaction in that case doesn't make a ton of sense as it was clearly a joke post (hence the gif).
@lnGrrrR how on earth is that a town slip? I'm so confused. Also I said scum is more likely to call something a town slip because town won't know if it's information scum "shouldn't" know. Scum has more information so they can identify slips. Town generally can't pick out a slip due to limited information.
I don't understand at all how both Wisp and DawningBlue both see Terry asking people not to hijack questions as a personal attack. That's normal mafia operating procedure. People ask specific people questions. Others taking them usually means that someone is trying to protect that person or push a narrative. It's mostly a scum+ play.
Though I agree the reaction in that case doesn't make a ton of sense as it was clearly a joke post (hence the gif).
@lnGrrrR how on earth is that a town slip? I'm so confused. Also I said scum is more likely to call something a town slip because town won't know if it's information scum "shouldn't" know. Scum has more information so they can identify slips. Town generally can't pick out a slip due to limited information.
its not really about the hijacking of the question, im pretty sure the person the question was originally asked to would still answer, would they not? I stated his tone wasnt that of someone who wanted to vote scum, but of someone who wanted to vote someone because he didnt like that they messed with how he played the game. But like I said, in the end, does it really matter? The person the question was asked to would still answer the question. and tbh I didnt know there was such a thing as town slip... lol. and ***** his sarcasm is really bad because I dont see any of his sarcastic posts as actually being sarcastic.
Ohhhh @DawningBlueSky why did you list yourself as a likely scum partner for someone? What does that even mean. FOS: engaged
I was asked for who Last's team will be if he was scum. I think it's obvious that his bud will be me, with the way I've been 'whiteknighting' aka defending him. it's a logical conclusion anyone will come to. what's the point of saying it would be anyone other than me? unless that was a trap question. now who was it who asked me that again..?
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Ohhhh @DawningBlueSky why did you list yourself as a likely scum partner for someone? What does that even mean. FOS: engaged
I was asked for who Last's team will be if he was scum. I think it's obvious that his bud will be me, with the way I've been 'whiteknighting' aka defending him. it's a logical conclusion anyone will come to. what's the point of saying it would be anyone other than me? unless that was a trap question. now who was it who asked me that again..?
But you know you're not scum so from your POV you could never be his partner even if you've been defending him. So including yourself in a team makes no sense. It doesn't help anyone solve the game if you start discussing theories you know aren't true as if they could be. And I believe it was Iso who asked you that.
Also I didn't know who you were till wisp called you Phraze. Now I know why your play feels familiar.
@Wisp yes it matters when people answer posts for others. No it didn't in that case.
Ohhhh @DawningBlueSky why did you list yourself as a likely scum partner for someone? What does that even mean. FOS: engaged
I was asked for who Last's team will be if he was scum. I think it's obvious that his bud will be me, with the way I've been 'whiteknighting' aka defending him. it's a logical conclusion anyone will come to. what's the point of saying it would be anyone other than me? unless that was a trap question. now who was it who asked me that again..?
But you know you're not scum so from your POV you could never be his partner even if you've been defending him. So including yourself in a team makes no sense. It doesn't help anyone solve the game if you start discussing theories you know aren't true as if they could be. And I believe it was Iso who asked you that.
Also I didn't know who you were till wisp called you Phraze. Now I know why your play feels familiar.
@Wisp yes it matters when people answer posts for others. No it didn't in that case.
I alrdy answered prior that I don't scumread Last, so I don't have any possible teams on him atm. since I was asked to reply to the IF, I gave the general pov. and tbf I would associate myself with Last if he was scum from my pov it's that simple, so I can't scumread Last x935
my cover is blown. rip. lol
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Ohhhh @DawningBlueSky why did you list yourself as a likely scum partner for someone? What does that even mean. FOS: engaged
I was asked for who Last's team will be if he was scum. I think it's obvious that his bud will be me, with the way I've been 'whiteknighting' aka defending him. it's a logical conclusion anyone will come to. what's the point of saying it would be anyone other than me? unless that was a trap question. now who was it who asked me that again..?
But you know you're not scum so from your POV you could never be his partner even if you've been defending him. So including yourself in a team makes no sense. It doesn't help anyone solve the game if you start discussing theories you know aren't true as if they could be. And I believe it was Iso who asked you that.
Also I didn't know who you were till wisp called you Phraze. Now I know why your play feels familiar.
@Wisp yes it matters when people answer posts for others. No it didn't in that case.
I alrdy answered prior that I don't scumread Last, so I don't have any possible teams on him atm. since I was asked to reply to the IF, I gave the general pov. and tbf I would associate myself with Last if he was scum from my pov it's that simple, so I can't scumread Last x935
my cover is blown. rip. lol
But that doesn't help anyone at all. We can all have the general POV, only you can tell us what you see. So refusing to give that and giving conentional wisdom feels like trying to avoid the question. Doesn't matter that you don't scum read him, you can still see potential buddy interactions.
Ohhhh @DawningBlueSky why did you list yourself as a likely scum partner for someone? What does that even mean. FOS: engaged
I was asked for who Last's team will be if he was scum. I think it's obvious that his bud will be me, with the way I've been 'whiteknighting' aka defending him. it's a logical conclusion anyone will come to. what's the point of saying it would be anyone other than me? unless that was a trap question. now who was it who asked me that again..?
But you know you're not scum so from your POV you could never be his partner even if you've been defending him. So including yourself in a team makes no sense. It doesn't help anyone solve the game if you start discussing theories you know aren't true as if they could be. And I believe it was Iso who asked you that.
Also I didn't know who you were till wisp called you Phraze. Now I know why your play feels familiar.
@Wisp yes it matters when people answer posts for others. No it didn't in that case.
I alrdy answered prior that I don't scumread Last, so I don't have any possible teams on him atm. since I was asked to reply to the IF, I gave the general pov. and tbf I would associate myself with Last if he was scum from my pov it's that simple, so I can't scumread Last x935
my cover is blown. rip. lol
But that doesn't help anyone at all. We can all have the general POV, only you can tell us what you see. So refusing to give that and giving conentional wisdom feels like trying to avoid the question. Doesn't matter that you don't scum read him, you can still see potential buddy interactions.
ok. I don't see Last as scum so I haven't thought about a potential team. if u insist to get an answer from my non-existent pov, it's likely to feel forced. not my problem.
possible scumbuds with Last would be in.. idk, Shinichi/Osie/Killjoy. says he's not sure about Shinichi, Osie backed off after a bit of whiteknighting, probably had scum theatre with Killjoy. I recall DV/Iso/Azrael having interacted with Last, but nothing significant to memory.
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The way he came out and was like scum #1 and #2 seemed like he was sure those 2 were scum based on the few posts they had. Which is highly unlikelyy.
Hello, my name is Azrael. Perhaps you've heard tales of my renown?
What do you mean you've never heard of me?
Did you hear about the time that I - no? Never?
What about the time that we - really?
Well, surely you at least heard about the - You didn't!?
*sigh* Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
(Iso can attest that I used to pull off that particular trick about half as good as he does. I nail maybe 1-2 early on D1, he usually rides in and cleans up the whole rest of their team. He does it better than me now, cause he's the newer, fancier model. But it's much tougher in a scenario where you don't have a good grasp on the players' meta for comparison, and I certainly don't have that anymore. So, it's more of a thing where I pretend that I can still do it like the good old days, but really probably can't reliably under these conditions.)
Speaking of upholding my rep as town what did (Osie? And someone else) role-claim again, that he shouldn't have? Reading's hard and stuff. Asking for a friend. Etc.
The way he came out and was like scum #1 and #2 seemed like he was sure those 2 were scum based on the few posts they had. Which is highly unlikelyy.
Hello, my name is Azrael. Perhaps you've heard tales of my renown?
What do you mean you've never heard of me?
Did you hear about the time that I - no? Never?
What about the time that we - really?
Well, surely you at least heard about the - You didn't!?
*sigh* Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
(Iso can attest that I used to pull off that particular trick about half as good as he does. I nail maybe 1-2 early on D1, he usually rides in and cleans up the whole rest of their team. He does it better than me now, cause he's the newer, fancier model. But it's much tougher in a scenario where you don't have a good grasp on the players' meta for comparison, and I certainly don't have that anymore. So, it's more of a thing where I pretend that I can still do it like the good old days, but really probably can't reliably under these conditions.)
and if ur wrong, who pats you on the back and says, "its ok to be wrong," and more sarcastic claims out of no where... what is this? You claimed I was scum and now ur retracting it as a joke??? if you so accustomed to using meta, then feel free to ask me for some links to my scum and town games...
Speaking of upholding my rep as town what did (Osie? And someone else) role-claim again, that he shouldn't have? Reading's hard and stuff. Asking for a friend. Etc.
back up if I recall? and Blue Dawn is claming she has 4 BP to start with, thats everything we got so far
(Psst, that's my excuse for failing to locate scum this game, because I'm actually scum, but still have to uphold my rep as town. Just fyi.)
... what even, whats with the jokes, beating a dead horse? tell me why should i take this as a joke and not at face value?
inb4 "would scum really do this" Yes, I believe some scum do have the balls to do this, and I almost got lynched day 1 for claiming I could NK people, as a joke... when I was neither scum or someone with a NK PR... As they say, "Hiding in plain sight sometimes eludes yourself from even the best."
Why even do that Azrael? There is literally no point in doing what you just did. Impress me with your renown and explain how that stunt ever helps town. All I see is needless wifom, that is only really cool when you're scum and do it. If you're town, you just confuse the new players that are town and make the experienced players think you're being arrogant scum playing a too scummy to be scum card. There are only a couple really experienced players here that could probably figure out a good town reason to do that. Enlighten me your greatness.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Unvote
So the first actual real post with content that he has is the big spoiler post.
Actual content in that post:
-Az: "Why did you point out two people as scum and then vote someone different?"
-Az: (in response to Az's "I'll be instadead if betrayed" post) "Also, is this fearmongering, serious, or both?"
-Terry: (in response to him saying 'this reads like scum!tom) "Does it though?"
-DV: "Are you sure you need those three points that fast and can't just get it out of allying three times?"
-Axel: (He's ok with making a list of people who could betray him)"At that point, aren't you basically just making a readlist? That's not outside of the realm of normal reasonable actions; I'm not sure why we're making a big deal about it."
-Az: (town could abuse the rules etc) "I don't know if I would go that far... :shrugs:"
-LnGrrR: (I like Terry so far) "Why?"
-LnGrrR: (Claiming at 1BP) "It's going to be super easy/common to get to 1 BP, so that seems potentially a little hasty to claim no matter what... Maybe, though."
-DV: (assuming the mod will punish betrayals to nerf scum) "Stop it"
-Dawn/Anybody: "Out of Lastwhisper, Azrael, RSJT, and Tom, how many scum do you think there are there, who do you think they are, and why?"
-Terry: "Why exactly? Just because you think Tom was bussing LW? Do you think Tom is that predictable?"
-Axelrod: "I wouldn't put it past Azrael to pocket a scumbuddy… Heck, I wouldn't put it past Azrael to pocket anybody. Maybe I should actually learn how to read Azrael, instead of just assuming that all he does as either alignment is pocket people, poke at people, and participate promisingly, lol."
-Dawn: (about tom) "What do you not like about his approach to the game?"
-LnGrrR: (in response to an inquest about game mechanics) "Why are you asking Kumquat21 specifically?"
-Me: (I doubt people can die first round of AB) "As I said to D_V earlier in this post, you should stop it, too. That said, to entertain this line of thinking for just a tiny bit, that would strictly means that there are no roles that can lose a player 2 BP prior to the AB game, which seems like a bit of a stretch."
-DV: "What do you think of Tom this game outside of his interactions with Terry?"
-Terry: (if someoen started with 1BP...) "Damnit, Terry. Also, according to setup, everyone starts the game with 3 BP. Unless you're claiming a character that starts with 1 BP this early for no clear reason."
-Terry: (I'm a bit concerned so many jumped on the wagon without thinking about it) "Were they not thinking about it? Were they noting scumtells in your posts? Or was it something more sinister?"
-Terry: (Not surpised you're in the group, Osie) "That's not very nice. Also, D_V's vote on you could certainly have been thought out. He also describes his thoughts on you in #114, 15 minutes before you made this post."
-Dawn: (gimme writup of playstyle) "Eww."
-Iso: (if LW is town, Terry is scum) "Explain? Just because of the double wagon?"
-Terry: (Iso is setting up a dichotomy) "They are the top two wagons… Also, if you have a problem with Iso, put your money where your mouth is and vote him. Also, what does "EGMEOY" mean? "Especially Given My Experience Of You?" "Eventually Garam Masala Elegantly Observes Yodeling?""
-Dawn: "Lastwhisper seems okay to me at the moment."
I'm ignoring all the fluff. I'm gonna focus on actual, potentially alignment indicative things.
Bolded are things I likedas potentially townie in this post, red colored parts are things I thought were potentially scummy, italics could go either way.
For that first one @Terry, he comes off as unnecessarily snarky. I've found scum tend to hide behind certain emotions (aggressiveness, snarkyness) when they can't fake actual ones. There's a bit of that in the "Were they not thinking about that" post to Terry as well.
There's some weird language in there as well... (Are yo sure that you need three points?)
Hedging (seems, at the moment)
Stifling discussion on mechanics
Then theres that bit near the end... Where he asks Iso to explain his read, wondering aloud if its because of the two wagons... but in the post to Terry later that post, he seems to have already come to that conclusion. Generally, I don't like people asking questions, but then jumping to that conclusion before getting the answer, as it feels like that's the conclusion you wanted in the first place..
Its also worth noting that his tone towards Terry makes me think he's 100% scum reading him... but never votes him.
However, there are some questions I really like in here. He does some asking of general mindset questions which could be town scumhunting. There's that one about "who in these 4 are scum" which could be telling.
He also seems to assume that everone has 3BP, which could potentially mean that he has no scumbuddies.
Orb, why do you like LW? Given that info, why did you vote BlueSky?
It's more that I don't have enough of an opinion on LW at the moment to vote them. As for my vote, I don't care for Duskingblacksea's push on Tom; it feels off.
In the spoiler post, LW "seemed fine at the moment" but now he' doesn't have enough reason at the moment to vote him". It's a shady language thing that keeps LW as an option for lynch.
I did agree with Dawn's push on Tom being off though.
Well two things. One, I still don't get why you think I would vote the person I was saying looked to be bussing instead of the person they could potentially be bussing that I thought was independently scummy. We could just be two people voting the same scummy person. There is no world where voting Tom makes sense instead of voting LW. I'm sorry if you don't think my vote on LW made sense, but I have spent sufficient time explaining it.
@osi: Can you please evoke a serious and consistent playstyle so that I can be arsed to read your posts? Thanks!
That sounds less entertaining, papa Iso. But here's something:
Unvote
Talk to me about your thoughts on Terry and LW; they seem to mostly mirror my own. Also, what do you think about LnGrrrR outside of his RVS vote on you?
Okay....I guess it just seems unreliable to ask for meta and then use that, rather than actually looking at someone's written meta or just ignore it altogether.
I find nothing wrong with asking for meta, but relying on it as a primary source of judgement is of dubious value.
There's mostly just NAI stuff here, except his question to Iso. +town post
I was going to start off with "He's SO defensive and repeatedly obnoxious," but I think that's not completely fair, especially after looking at the posts in question.
@DV: So I'm bussing Tom? Even after I never voted him and and never tried to push a wagon onto to him? Even after I decided he was probably town in post #124? You can unvote me now.
And he actually is aligning Tom into a town slot with this post, because hes now quoted himself saying he thought Tom was town and once again acknowledging that. If he was "Bussing Tom" he would be a lot more wishy washy. This is affirmative. "I think X, I said X here. What are you talking about?" sort of statement. Its town.
Are you 100% sure that the back-off was entirely organic, though?
You know what. **** it. Terry is now my number one town.
I wouldn't go that far, but I'd certainly push him out of my scumreads after giving 198 a good look-see.
Vote: LnGrrrR
So, first of all there's another language thing here. Asking "are you sure..." gives potential scummbuddy DV cover to back off of his read there. This particular instance isn't as aggregious as in the spoiler post, hence the italics.
The thing I have the most problem is that he's unwilling to give a dignificant townread to Terry for a REALLY (exclaimation point double underline) good post. He's only willing to not scumread him for it. He's not commiting to a townread when I feel like it's the natural way to go.
And the vote on LnGrrR... not bolded by me obv... but I haven't seen ANY mention of him being scummy prior to that vote. He asked him a fe questions in the spoiler post. but nothing that indicates any scumread whatsoever.
I've liked some of his posts a lot, which leads me to place him at an overall townlean, but at the same time, he seems hard-tunneled on RSJT, and some bits here and there look a little strange.
I want to like this post. I like the question.
But then he sullies it by saying that he's hardtunneling Terry, which feels like a way to change his opinion should he need to.
On the other hand, I did notice that Pheonix was doing that, and thought it odd as well. So, I suppose its PROBABLY fine?
I'm voting LnGrrrR because I don't care for his tone. I would like to see more, though.
I also don't care for Lastwhisper, and I do like some most of the people on his wagon, but the wagon itself felt a little hasty, which is still giving me pause.
He's scumreading LngrrR based on tone... and the proof he provides is... his whole ISO.
Also he's back to disliking lastwhisper, though still not committing to it.
So, as of this point, he's been disliking... all the major wagons. Terry, Whisper, LngrrR.
Tone is a worse reason to vote for someone over really bad responses from slight pressure.
Okay, to elaborate:
I was also concerned reading LnGrrrR's first post, especially given the strict contradiction from a rational thought process, let alone a town thought process. He then suggested that easily mislynched townies should suicide themselves, agreed with something that I think is incautious, specifically questioned Grapefruit out of the blue about something random (while I have a light townlean on Grapefruit, this could be buddying setup), and his last post, towards me, was worded in a way that seemed like he was trying to lead me into saying or doing something.
Ok so he's elaborating now.
This feels... a lot more substancial than just 'tone', and the fact that he didn't mention most of this until questioned makes me think he hopped onto his ISO after being asked and came up with some reasons to think LnGrrR to be scummy.
I do agree the suicide thing was weird, but again... when he was asked why he was voting LngrrR I would think he would mention that.
He does follow through on his question about asking grapefruit specifically... but still. He never questioned LnGrrR on the suicide thing, nor really commented on it. If it had concerned him, I feel like he would have.
When this is your read, why just answer 'tone' and link the ISO?
Currently I have 1-2 scum in inactives (BluesEclipse, Megiddo, Jenna), though that is certainly open to change based on more posts from people who I am less than certain on.
This I feel is very unlikely to come from a town perspective. He's speculating that one-two scum are in the lurkers... but the only reason to PoE to lurkers is if you have townreads on the rest of the game. That's unlikely I think, given game size and just that he hasn't mentioned THAT many townreads. Terry is "not a scumread", Whisper is scum, LnGrrR is scum, I think at this point Dawn wasn't strictly town (IDK, he unvoted and never said anything about Dawn after that. Maybe he was townreading him by then)
But like, he's townreading tom, grape, DV, Az and a half one on Phoenix. Not enough PoE to start considering lurkers from a town perspective. Its jsut weird.
I noted that I asked GF specifically because GF thought that my talking about mechanics was scummy. And I didnt suggest that easily mislynched townie SHOULD suicide themselves, I stated that they COULD as something to be aware of.
It kinda felt like a loose, 20-20 hindsight link... The implication was that it was an advisable course of action, but okay.
I like the second part of your post #254, though, even if I believe that you may be thinking from a utopian dreamland there.
Kinda commits to liking part of LnGrrR's post.So, ok.
I mean, if we had a train on town and scum, the scumteam would be pressuring reasons out to push the weight on the town train. if both trains are town, we won't see any kind of pressuring, fake or not. at the very least, why aren't ppl even questioning the ppl they voted so far?? I at least got what I wanted out of Tom and have my vote on him as a placeholder for now.
where are ppl questioning LW or Terry? if u don't wanna talk about magic formula, at least consider it from a logical standpoint.
If the scumteam is active.
D_V, Tom, and Phoenix were all questioning/poking at Terry.
Terry was poking at Lastwhisper.
I'm... not sure what this actually means. Maybe it means those people are less likely aligned?
Since I'm unsure, I'll just put this as null-leantown?
I think Shinichi townslipped. If not, he is doing an amazing job. You're near the top of my townlist right now Shinichi, right under Terry. For qhoever asked, Terry is probing this game like he did in Silence of the Lambs, When he replaced in as scum with me in Sonasland, he was more cautious and not as confrontational.
@Shin, why do you think scum betrayals are any different? If they drop to 0, they are dead. Which is actually my point... if scum get matched up with scum, they are going to do whats most beneficial to them 100% of the time. It is going to be really hard to fight through that informational power. Giving them the ability to ally AND betray freely is bad.
If someone chooses to betray, then they can defend themselves publicly as always. But there should be a stigma attached.
@LnGrrrR: What about the potential for information during night time before the AB game?
I'm not a huge fan of people speculating about buddytalk in the thread between two non-scumleans, but it could come from town, so its null.
The other two things before the list are jsut responding to things, and probably NAI.
The list... I'm probably a little biased, but I just kinda appear in his scumreads out of nowhere. I'm also not a huge fan of people calling people scum, then not explaining till asked. (He's done it three times now: Dawn, LngrrR, me. Possibly whisper too, but these posts are starting to run together.
I'm also not a fan of where LnGrrR is on the list. He had pretty substancial reasons for voting him, now after part of one post he's Null.
I feel that for the most part, he isn't trying hard enough. I also am not opposed to idea of D_V's Killjoy/LW tinfoil.
Here's the reasoning for me. Not a scummy reasoning post, so much. I could debate mafia theory and say scum tries harder than town as a whole, but again, biased. He could just not know that.
The way he's connecting me to LW is odd though, considering tom's question had nothing to do with LW. Inserting him doesn't feel like a natural thought process.
What are your thoughts on DBS, and how many scum do you think there are in the inactives, if any? Do you agree that the LW wagon was too fast and why?
So the first question is whatever. But.
Osie thinks the LW wagon moved too fast. (Since asking if he agrees mean Osie also thinks it) But hes still scumreading him.
Modgaming, lack of content, and the whole "default ally/ally" thing bother me.
On the other hand, okay reasoning on Tom in RVS (as Tom noted), a good point in response to Az, and a good question to the mod. There's not much to see, but I'm still leaning town.
Do you think there is more than one scum in the lurkers?
I'm... concerned about two in the inactives (Blues, Meg, Jenna), but I hope that it's not the case that all three are scum. I'm also thinking that probably one of my 6 townleans is scum and one of killjoy or lastwhisper may be town. I want to look back at DBS and Azrael, though, as those are both people I had marked as pseudoactive, and not only is DBS more than that, but Azrael's posts might have more to them.
The pseudoactives
Read on Axel is par.
He has more townreads not (although pretty loose ones) so I'm not sure the speculation on the scum in the lurkers makes sense still. Like, his reads aren't THAT good on most of his townreads.
Also speculates that his reads one several people could just be completely wrong, which is probably NAI in general, but it's fencesitty and there's a pattern there.
LW ~ is claiming to betray but could be fake?
I don't even get this one being on his might ally. This should clearly be on his might betray list.
Shinichi ~ ally could be bad idk
This comment doesn't even make sense.
Looks fake as all hell.
Yeah, I think there's a degree of false positive though, since Dawning's posts have somewhat of a mix of new player and experienced player elements.
@Orb, I dont understand this question: "LnGrrrR: What about the potential for information during night time before the AB game?" If I read it correctly, pairs are made during end of Day, and decisions made during Night, which means scum have the most info on how to manage their powers, alibis and excuses, etc etc.
This is easier to explain if I just claim (and it doesn't hurt me too much; the role isn't super high-impact unless I make it so, which involves claiming eventually):
Town Neighbourizer - I can pay 1 BP to gain a neighbor chat for that Night with the player with whom I am paired.
Premature claiming is more town than not in most cases, although the role isn't specific to town. Could be scum.
Overall +town though
Thoughts on Dawningbluesky as I'm going through their ISO chronologically:
* AOE
* Very negative feeling on both wagons (bit of mindmeld for me here)
* "Asspull excuse" - fair.
* D_V (pocketing?) response
* I hate how they spell "already."
* Note on Tom - HMM?
* "give me a small writeup of how u play" - Eww.
* Their talk of LW sounds like town!Shadow talking about me. But the argument is also questionable, especially since meta is WIFOM at best.
* Their response to Tom reminded me of Kpaca interactions in Revolution. (Doesn't hurt that I already compare Tom and Kpaca regularly, in part to help with reading Tom. ) I think the frustration is legitimate, and just based on that I could see some people townreading them. It's enough for me to put them at townlean given their other posts.
* Misinterpreting the day phase length is NAI.
* Their post to me (#167) didn't help me one way or another.
* Unlike Iso, I don't have a problem with them answering Az's question, but their answer feels like it could just be setup for a pocket or a scunnel ("scum-tunnel") towards me. Also, I like Azrael; I'm not just trying to annoy him.
* Then they call me defensive for messing around… Whatever.
* I disagree about asking people for self-metas, but I suppose whatever.
* Something irks me on the LW wagon talk. I'll get back to this.
* "to know how someone plays to avoid any misunderstandings" - Good luck on that with some of the players in this game, myself included.
* Just fine with the Phoenix townlean.
* They talked with Iso about not seeing LW wagon issues, but turn around and talk about LW wagon issues.
* Some very formulaic thinking, but in a town vein.
* Post I don't care for responding to LnGrrrR that looks like it could be open wolfchatting.
* "Both are town because we're not questioning them."
* NOTE TO SELF: Explain Prisoner's Dilemma again.
* I like the Shin discussion, though who it is with is… mrgl flargl.
* #296 feels very legitimate.
Okay, so I feel like they're giving themselves just enough rope to escape a full read on lastwhisper, which doesn't feel good. This could just be a playstyle thing, though.
Overall, there's enough town in there that I don't want to lynch as of yet, and I might be willing to ally. Townlean.
hmmm. I guess there's enough town notated here that he's townleaning? I'm not the hugest fan of liking a discussion by someone, but not liking who it's with? Like, what does who he's talking to have to do whether the actual content of the convo is town or not?
Also some hedging (as of yet)
Maybe we'll see more when he's active again, but for now it looks like he ran in with confidence, which was abruptly cut off. Besides his unclear (leaning towards wrong) thoughts on D_V and KJ, I'm not seeing much of concern, though.
Hm. nothing strictly bad here, although he seems to be having an easier time reading Az than most do... which could just mean they're scum together, or, as Osie has said, "trying not to annoy him".
Calamansi21 had a great catch-up post, and there's been some mindmeld for me with him on LnGrrrR.
I get what LnGrrrR is going for now, though. I don't necessarily like it, since I think it's too easy for scum to work around, and I think it's utopian dreamland territory for town, but I certainly understand it.
That said, on a related note, the classic Prisoner's Dilemma as applied to this game:
Let's say we look at Morgan and Taylor. Taylor chooses one of the two options, we're not sure which. What should Morgan choose?
Well, if Taylor betrayed, then the choices are:
Ally: -1
Betray: 0
If Taylor allied, then the choices are:
Ally: +1
Betray: +3
Either way, betrayal is inherently rationally superior as the less problematic option. And it's the same if you switch the names around, so two rationally-acting players will always go for betrayal-betrayal.
That said, a community cannot function if everyone solely acts out of their own self-interest (especially in the context of a mafia game). So this presents three choices (two listed here, one later) in which Morgan allies: One is agreement to give Taylor the 3 points. Another is agreement that they both ally, which is only reasonable for Morgan to do given that Morgan won't just lose from losing the 1 point if Taylor betrays.
Given that betrayal is the rational choice, the game itself does not inherently make it a scummy choice, which is where a WIFOM element comes in, allowing it to be incorporated comfortably into Mafia.
So then there's the variation on the ally-ally agreement, which is what LnGrrrR is trying for - Governance. If you make it law that people have to ally unless "consented," then town, would, theoretically, for the most part, follow the law, and scum, would, theoretically, for the most part, break it. But this seemingly ignores a few factors.
1. Mafia have the ability to discuss what they will do and setup betrayals with relatively low risk if they can justify it, especially on any day other than day 1.
2. It is likely that some town should not give up their roles publicly just for the sake of the points, but their roles may be near worthless if they don't get the points fast enough.
3. The pairings are public, but the results (and people's quantity of BP) are not, which makes it very possible to lie about one's BP quantity.
So while coordinating town is a good idea, I think that it might give scum too much to work with.
I'd still suggest we discuss our results the next day (after all, that's very... mafia-esque). But I don't think holding people to allying as town is appropriate.
Commitment on GF, then mechanics talk.I'd call this post mostly NAI with a hint of town.
Given that I suspect LnGrrrR is aware of the issues with his model, I'm inclined to believe that suggesting it is either naive hoping that the scumteam is bad this game or something sinister.
Since I'm not entirely convinced right now that anything else sinister would be going on with him, I'm leaning naiveté, but am willing to consider alternatives. He could also be in denial or unaware of some of the issues.
I also think the rigidity that you're pushing "ally=townie, betray=scummy" is based on the assumption that everyone has the same net gain from using BP, which I just don't think holds true. Everyone should be prepared to justify why they pick what they do, but saying "town have to ally" could lead to situations where someone gets screwed because they allied with a scum lean who betrayed them.
You downplay two strategies; please provide your suggested strategy along with a list of who you will Ally and Betray.
I don't think a "one size fits all" strategy is going to work. Every pairing needs to be done on a case by case basis. I think everyone creating a reads list and going from there will be helpful. But two people town reading each other might be better suited to agree on an AB pairing to the greater benefit of the other.
Regardless of who I get paired with, I will most likely ally. I'll have a list of people I'd approve to betray me, and if someone outside of that list did then we'll have words.
Is reality altered? I say "give me an apple," and you say, "I think instead I should give you an apple." And then you don't give me an apple.
As a reiteration, give me an apple.
I like this post by Jenna. Jenna is comfortably in my townleans.
1. What are your preferred gender pronouns? 2. Do you solidly think Killjoy and D_V are scum-aligned, and if so, why?
3. What's the airspeed of an unladen swallow? 4. If different from before, what are your current thoughts on lastwhisper, in detail, and why? If the same, was that a townlean, an unsure/null, or something else?
5. Are you town? 6. Do you think your posts merit accusations or not? Why?
7. What's your favorite citrus fruit? 8. Does Shinichi's catchup feel organic to you? Why?
Only the bold questions could theoretically really yield alignment I think. If the questions were unprompted they'd be better.
IDK maybe it's +town? There's still a lot of fluff though.
I'm thinking since they weren't unprompted, the value of thinking up the questions may have been nullified.
1. Is the labyrinth in your avatar supposed to be very easy or very difficult?
2. Do you think a second vote on a person at a time when the lynch threshold is 9 can realistically be called opportunistic?
3. Are you sarcastic in every game? Are you arrogant in every game?
4. I've seen dichotomies from both scum and town. Why do you think it's specifically scum behavior?
5. Did you mean to say IGMEOY, or is there a mysterious EGMEOY that we all don't know about? Elephants Gracefully Masticate Endless Oblong Yams. 6. Talk to me about Shinichi, please. What are your thoughts?[/quote]These questions were unprompted, kinda. They were shortly after the questions to DBS so. Shrug.Mostly fluff.
Why claim so early? Why the Killjoy vote? (I've sort of been glazing over your posts.)
Because I feel that my role is more useful if known to town, and not a big harm for me if known to scum.
The Killjoy vote was because Killjoy's been at the bottom or within 1 spot of the bottom of my reads for most of the game and I'm not enthused with voting lastwhisper or LnGrrrR, the main two other people who have been down there, at the moment. If it comes down to it, I might be willing to vote LW, but I need to be more convinced that he's definitely scum.
The stance on me is meh, I guess. But his stance on Whisper is bad.Like, if Whisper is down near the bottom, why must he be convinced he's def scum?
Also, language tell... he's talking about his scumreads not in terms of how he actually feels, but their position on his scumlist. Like, it's trying to stay in line with what he has on his scumlist as opposed to who he actually thinks is scum at this time.
Also hedging.
Shin works 7 and a half hour morning shifts, so when he gets home around 4pm est. He missed the blunt of the days posts so ya, he tends to always have to catch up. I on the other hand can check my phone as I work customer service and have time during and between my college classes to do so...
I understand meatworld constraints all too well (especially since I've worked similar shifts before).
Shinichi is still in null for me, but that's mostly virtue of not having really given him a full readthrough, which I'll do when I get back from the dentist in a few hours.
Shin was for sure townlean at some point, and I don't recall seeing any change in that since.
1. I'm defending Last. Osie is seeing me positively. I voted Tom only to retract later.
Positively is a bit of a stretch; mixed would be more accurate. Although, I would be more than likely to have you in nulls if we were scumbuddies. This early, though, in this game? If I was scum with you and whisper, I'd probably be bussing you at the least, if not whisper as well.
This... is a weird train of throught to go from "Osie is viewing me positively".. Spontaineously speculating your actions as scum out of nowhere?
That whole exchange between Osieorb and Dawning gives me the creeps...
"I'd bus you ;)"
"No, I'm too good to bus ;)"
"Oh...well you look easier to bus that our other buddy ;)"
"No really, we're just bad town but as scum we are definitely great!"
Vote Dawning
Why do you think you're hard to bus? Who's underestimating you?
lol ok. should I claim? u will never want me lynched for sure <3
if I was scum it would be hard to bus me since I will enter this game with an informed mindset and, given how well I've handled things so far, it would be difficult to even pin a blame on me in the first place. now compare that with how I entered the game and tell me, is this rly the best I can do if I had an informed mindset? I can assure u, it will be hard to bus me if I was scum. I'd say everyone is underestimating my scumgame, thats what.
since we're starrrrting to get into the Tunnel of Dawn, pls question me. and remember, u go under my train u go under my knife. I won't let anyone vote me without a good reason, and by good reason I mean a reason I cannot refute.
or, if town wants, I'll just claim so we can do smthing more productive with our time.
Okay. You're someone who is easy to consider reading as scum, at least in this game. You also have towntells, but either side could be pushed forward into focus to make an argument for you as one or the other. Albeit, the only reason I wouldn't consider you for a day 1 lynch is that there's enough towntells there that I take pause. But that's not necessarily going to last.
Minor commitment on Dawn.
Also the second statement feels weird. There's some hedging, but I feel like the way he isn't outright saying how town he views Dawn right here is weird.
I am implying its supicious to say you will die if you get betrayed, because if for some unforsaken reason said person lives they are probably scum which is why I don't like this.
Okay. That's good reasoning. I mean, it's basically a pseudoclaim from Azrael, which is awkward.
I do feel the latter is the case because knowing what a person will choose beforehand benefits the opponent so if said person is scum it benefits them knowing this information.
Does the benefit for scum outweigh the benefit for town? Is the benefit for scum necessarily significant in this context?
Also i wasn't be obnoxious atleast I didnt mean too i was just saying if this is anything like the game I know quite a bit, for example the fact that everyone should have started with 3 bp. Though seeing as dawn claimed otherwise I am quite concerned at the authenticity of her post.
I'm perfectly okay with metaphorically shaking hands and making up.
Ok so, given his townread on Az, he seems to be handling Az weirdly. It's entirely possible that Osie jsut really doens't want on Az's bad side?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck that was long.
Ok so, Osie has asked some good questions.
However:
*His progression on various people is weird or nonexistant.
*The way he discusses his scumtells in terms of where they are on the list vs. how scummy he actually views them is scummy.
*Consistant hedging (not super great tell, but could be fencesitting so I'm noting it)
*Quite a bit of fluff. I found myself skipping a lot of posts for being completely useless or just answering basic questions and whatnot.
So, I think in the macro perspective, Osie is scum. Vote Osie
So yea, red things bad. Bold things good. Italic things either. strikethroughs irrelevent.
And now, I'm taking a break.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Speaking of upholding my rep as town what did (Osie? And someone else) role-claim again, that he shouldn't have? Reading's hard and stuff. Asking for a friend. Etc.
Contrary to other comments Osie claimed to be town neighborizor. At 1BP a pop.
I;m disappointed Shin missed my vote/didn't get more pressure on him.
So I was wanting to get Shin reacting to pressure on him because I think his reacions to it would tell us a lot about him. This is mostly based on his personality. This was coupled with a feeling that he might be scum possibly based on a couple posts of his.
Ok, NOW break.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy, you sure you arent just voting Osi because you did all the work to ISO him? You think others are scummier, right? If so why are you voting him? Why isolate Orb instead of any other player, like DBS or Whisper?
I'm currently more sure that Osie is scum than my other scumreads atm, because I just physically read their entire game at once and confidence in Osie!scum is at it's peak.
I don't think Whispser is scum right now.
I'd vote DV, and I'm thinknig maybe hes scum with Osie.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
1. I'm defending Last. Osie is seeing me positively. I voted Tom only to retract later.
Positively is a bit of a stretch; mixed would be more accurate. Although, I would be more than likely to have you in nulls if we were scumbuddies. This early, though, in this game? If I was scum with you and whisper, I'd probably be bussing you at the least, if not whisper as well.
haha ok. mixed is still far from negative. if I was scum tho, I sure won't be an ez bus. does this say anything? idk about Last but I'm sure his scumgame doesn't suck this bad either. talk about underestimating the newbs.
No offense, but Lastwhisper doesn't seem as easy of a bus...
I think you're just as mislynchable as I am, which inherently means you'd be at least as easily bussable.
Where are these stats coming from? Also there isnot enough information to presume preflip so neither you or Dawn are mislyncble, also stating dawn is bussable seems quite weird its like your setting yourself up so later on you can do it without any feedback.
Stats? Just an impression. Your suggestion here seems like a bit of a stretch.
*His progression on various people is weird or nonexistant.
*The way he discusses his scumtells in terms of where they are on the list vs. how scummy he actually views them is scummy.
*Consistant hedging (not super great tell, but could be fencesitting so I'm noting it)
*Quite a bit of fluff. I found myself skipping a lot of posts for being completely useless or just answering basic questions and whatnot.
So, I think in the macro perspective, Osie is scum. Vote Osie
So yea, red things bad. Bold things good. Italic things either. strikethroughs irrelevent.
And now, I'm taking a break.
Okay this is a great post. I disagree with the macro conclusion but I follow the micro ones. I have less of an issue than you do with proclaiming scum reads without reasoning, it's something I do and don't view it as scummy. I'll agree the LnGrrrR one doesn't look good at all to me the way you highlight the jump from tone to content, but with Wisp and you it bothers me less. You could turn around and scum read me for largely the same thing. I don't see the amount of fluff as a scum tell. To my knowledge Osie is just a very active player who enjoys the social side of mafia. I'm not going to try to read into alignment based on that part. Hedging doesn't bother me this early because despite being almost 600 pages in it's early. Things are going to change drastically and multiple people have single digit post counts still.
The other point I like from your case is the pattern of viewing scum reads in the context of a list. That doesn't feel like a naturally town thing to do. I don't think it outweighs the positives in Osie (I generally have liked their targets).
That said that feels very much like a town post from you and alleviates a lot of my concerns on you. Also one DawningBlueSky doesn't look great coming out of that post and including themselves in a hypothetical scum team is just the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
I'm actually wondering if I'm probably too much stock in my memory of your play, ln. So you're probably next on my reread list. I probably won't do it as in depth as the Osie one.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
he's talking about his scumreads not in terms of how he actually feels, but their position on his scumlist. Like, it's trying to stay in line with what he has on his scumlist as opposed to who he actually thinks is scum at this time.
My readlist is a noting down of some of my feelings on people from a specific moment in time. My feelings on people are both more complex than that, and regularly change, sometimes radically. Keep in mind also that nobody has gotten into scumreads on a readslist this game for me so far, only leans. I've seen both town and scum bits from the majority of players. This was also part of why I waited a while to vote; I haven't found anyone that I'm 100% on.
@KJ, sure thing. I am going to try to knock out time this weekend to pay more attention. Playing on mobile is a pain. (And my son and wife had birthdays this week
Also one DawningBlueSky doesn't look great coming out of that post and including themselves in a hypothetical scum team is just the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
This is a good point. I went along with her hypothetical because I didn't think it was that big a deal, but it is abnormal in or out of my personal mafia experience.
Killjoy's read on me is questionable. Finding tells on both sides is a positive for him, but it's not clear if the read as a whole was actually organic or was an overwrought production.
]ok. I don't see Last as scum so I haven't thought about a potential team. if u insist to get an answer from my non-existent pov, it's likely to feel forced. not my problem.
possible scumbuds with Last would be in.. idk, Shinichi/Osie/Killjoy. says he's not sure about Shinichi, Osie backed off after a bit of whiteknighting, probably had scum theatre with Killjoy. I recall DV/Iso/Azrael having interacted with Last, but nothing significant to memory.
I think this quote is especially relevant given KJ's big post. Vote DBS with me peeps. Bolding mine.
I am fine with voting DBS. I think post 520 is just horrible, threatening those who vote him, trying to claim a power role but also trying to make someone look scummy by asking for it.
Well sure, I will take that bluff. Claim DBS, so as you said, we can "get on with something more productive".
possible scumbuds with Last would be in.. idk, Shinichi/Osie/Killjoy. says he's not sure about Shinichi, Osie backed off after a bit of whiteknighting, probably had scum theatre with Killjoy.
Bah.
You're fake news.
FakingNewsSky. DawningFakeNews.
You're probably not even a good day 1 lynch... That said, whether or not you are scum, your approach to this game is anti-town.
I was uncertain before, but hey, at least now I have a scumread.
possible scumbuds with Last would be in.. idk, Shinichi/Osie/Killjoy. says he's not sure about Shinichi, Osie backed off after a bit of whiteknighting, probably had scum theatre with Killjoy.
Bah.
You're fake news.
FakingNewsSky. DawningFakeNews.
You're probably not even a good day 1 lynch... That said, whether or not you are scum, your approach to this game is anti-town.
I was uncertain before, but hey, at least now I have a scumread.
Vote Dawningbluesky
(Just to be clear, this is me calling out too many of your posts as bad.)
I asked the mod. if there was going to be any differentiation in the "morning" scenes between people who get killed by the Mafia vs. people who died because they ran out of BP/got betrayed. Then I asked (without really expecting an answer) whether all the dying in this game is just from running out of BP, like the Mafia kill is "target player loses all their BP" or something like that, meaning all the deaths would look the same.
Mod. answer was that all the deaths are going to look the same. So we aren't going to be able to tell (necessarily) who died because they got targeted by the mafia vs. who might have died because he burned up all his BP/got betrayed/etc.
Suspicious: Axelrod's blending query regarding kill appearance. Why ask of the eventually known, sans planning accordingly in secret?
Yep, I'm on board especially because this feels like a Tom bus.
VOTE: Last Whisper
Vote StinkyJoeterry
This progression is awful.
Why?
You "Last whisper is scum"
You "Tomsloger is scum!"
*Tomsloger votes last whisper*
NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS
*you vote last whisper alongside Tomsloger*
"Tom is bussing, last whisper is definitely scum"
If anything, you should be more confident in Tom as scum there, not last whisper. I don't buy it.
First, agreement with Phoenix, second, I reconsider. LastWhisper is okay here.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Az, @Axel: Let's mindmeld. Tell me where you're at and why. I think you two have a good chance of being town and I feel like you're two of the stronger analysts in the game - so let's figure this out.
this pocketing/forced camaraderie is just a reminder that iso is still scum
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Its also worth noting that his tone towards Terry makes me think he's 100% scum reading him... but never votes him.
i thought this too but terry was a pretty big wagon at the time and i decided it was fine
This feels... a lot more substancial than just 'tone', and the fact that he didn't mention most of this until questioned makes me think he hopped onto his ISO after being asked and came up with some reasons to think LnGrrR to be scummy.
I do agree the suicide thing was weird, but again... when he was asked why he was voting LngrrR I would think he would mention that.
He does follow through on his question about asking grapefruit specifically... but still. He never questioned LnGrrR on the suicide thing, nor really commented on it. If it had concerned him, I feel like he would have.
When this is your read, why just answer 'tone' and link the ISO?
this is interesting
The list... I'm probably a little biased, but I just kinda appear in his scumreads out of nowhere. I'm also not a huge fan of people calling people scum, then not explaining till asked. (He's done it three times now: Dawn, LngrrR, me. Possibly whisper too, but these posts are starting to run together.
I'm also not a fan of where LnGrrR is on the list. He had pretty substancial reasons for voting him, now after part of one post he's Null.
the bolded is probably a big part of why you always seem to scumread me
dont think its scummy
*His progression on various people is weird or nonexistant.
*The way he discusses his scumtells in terms of where they are on the list vs. how scummy he actually views them is scummy.
*Consistant hedging (not super great tell, but could be fencesitting so I'm noting it)
*Quite a bit of fluff. I found myself skipping a lot of posts for being completely useless or just answering basic questions and whatnot.
his progressions are a bit weird, and i think thats the best part of this post.
keeping track of your own list and thus viewing the game that way is something i do in mashes where i cant keep everyone straight, so its a bit odd that osi is doing it in a game this small. (man you should have seen me in the danganropa mash, where everyone was an alias account with a japanese name and i couldnt differentiate anyone. i gave a readslist like, every dozen posts because of it.)
osi's hedginess/escape clauses is why i tried to lead his mislynch in apocalypse before he got himself modkilled. so its normal for town osi.
fluff also nai
i think osi is still more likely to be town than not, but i like your reasoning in this post
sort of answered with my response to your wall, but i think a chunk of what youre seeing is just osi, and some of it will be more meaningful when we have some of those peoples' alignments.
i think hes still approaching things from a place of wariness. the solving is there, even though it doesn't always make sense to me. and i like his questions.
@Killjoy, you sure you arent just voting Osi because you did all the work to ISO him? You think others are scummier, right? If so why are you voting him? Why isolate Orb instead of any other player, like DBS or Whisper?
Ohhhh @DawningBlueSky why did you list yourself as a likely scum partner for someone? What does that even mean. FOS: engaged
hi i did that earlier with joeterry
what up?
Really? Huh. Still think it's scummy in this case.
Also I like where your head is at right now. I feel like we had the same reaction to the KJ wall. And I kind of like your Iso take even if I know you have forced that read before (see JPA2). I think I kind of buy it since they are among the players he knows better and has history with but it's still a red flag.
I like voting LnGrrrR, but what about DawningBlue makes you think it's playstyle differences and not scum?
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Vote: Killjoy
Though I agree the reaction in that case doesn't make a ton of sense as it was clearly a joke post (hence the gif).
@lnGrrrR how on earth is that a town slip? I'm so confused. Also I said scum is more likely to call something a town slip because town won't know if it's information scum "shouldn't" know. Scum has more information so they can identify slips. Town generally can't pick out a slip due to limited information.
FOS: engaged
Be grateful, always."
But you know you're not scum so from your POV you could never be his partner even if you've been defending him. So including yourself in a team makes no sense. It doesn't help anyone solve the game if you start discussing theories you know aren't true as if they could be. And I believe it was Iso who asked you that.
Also I didn't know who you were till wisp called you Phraze. Now I know why your play feels familiar.
@Wisp yes it matters when people answer posts for others. No it didn't in that case.
my cover is blown. rip. lol
Be grateful, always."
But that doesn't help anyone at all. We can all have the general POV, only you can tell us what you see. So refusing to give that and giving conentional wisdom feels like trying to avoid the question. Doesn't matter that you don't scum read him, you can still see potential buddy interactions.
possible scumbuds with Last would be in.. idk, Shinichi/Osie/Killjoy. says he's not sure about Shinichi, Osie backed off after a bit of whiteknighting, probably had scum theatre with Killjoy. I recall DV/Iso/Azrael having interacted with Last, but nothing significant to memory.
Be grateful, always."
Hello, my name is Azrael. Perhaps you've heard tales of my renown?
What do you mean you've never heard of me?
Did you hear about the time that I - no? Never?
What about the time that we - really?
Well, surely you at least heard about the - You didn't!?
*sigh* Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
(Iso can attest that I used to pull off that particular trick about half as good as he does. I nail maybe 1-2 early on D1, he usually rides in and cleans up the whole rest of their team. He does it better than me now, cause he's the newer, fancier model. But it's much tougher in a scenario where you don't have a good grasp on the players' meta for comparison, and I certainly don't have that anymore. So, it's more of a thing where I pretend that I can still do it like the good old days, but really probably can't reliably under these conditions.)
Y'all better read it. It took me several hours to write.
So the first actual real post with content that he has is the big spoiler post.
Actual content in that post:
-Az: "Why did you point out two people as scum and then vote someone different?"
-Az: (in response to Az's "I'll be instadead if betrayed" post) "Also, is this fearmongering, serious, or both?"
-Terry: (in response to him saying 'this reads like scum!tom) "Does it though?"
-DV: "Are you sure you need those three points that fast and can't just get it out of allying three times?"
-Axel: (He's ok with making a list of people who could betray him)"At that point, aren't you basically just making a readlist? That's not outside of the realm of normal reasonable actions; I'm not sure why we're making a big deal about it."
-Az: (town could abuse the rules etc) "I don't know if I would go that far... :shrugs:"
-LnGrrR: (I like Terry so far) "Why?"
-LnGrrR: (Claiming at 1BP) "It's going to be super easy/common to get to 1 BP, so that seems potentially a little hasty to claim no matter what... Maybe, though."
-DV: (assuming the mod will punish betrayals to nerf scum) "Stop it"
-Dawn/Anybody: "Out of Lastwhisper, Azrael, RSJT, and Tom, how many scum do you think there are there, who do you think they are, and why?"
-Terry: "Why exactly? Just because you think Tom was bussing LW? Do you think Tom is that predictable?"
-Axelrod: "I wouldn't put it past Azrael to pocket a scumbuddy… Heck, I wouldn't put it past Azrael to pocket anybody. Maybe I should actually learn how to read Azrael, instead of just assuming that all he does as either alignment is pocket people, poke at people, and participate promisingly, lol."
-Dawn: (about tom) "What do you not like about his approach to the game?"
-LnGrrR: (in response to an inquest about game mechanics) "Why are you asking Kumquat21 specifically?"
-Me: (I doubt people can die first round of AB) "As I said to D_V earlier in this post, you should stop it, too. That said, to entertain this line of thinking for just a tiny bit, that would strictly means that there are no roles that can lose a player 2 BP prior to the AB game, which seems like a bit of a stretch."
-DV: "What do you think of Tom this game outside of his interactions with Terry?"
-Terry: (if someoen started with 1BP...) "Damnit, Terry. Also, according to setup, everyone starts the game with 3 BP. Unless you're claiming a character that starts with 1 BP this early for no clear reason."
-Terry: (I'm a bit concerned so many jumped on the wagon without thinking about it) "Were they not thinking about it? Were they noting scumtells in your posts? Or was it something more sinister?"
-Terry: (Not surpised you're in the group, Osie) "That's not very nice. Also, D_V's vote on you could certainly have been thought out. He also describes his thoughts on you in #114, 15 minutes before you made this post."
-Dawn: (gimme writup of playstyle) "Eww."
-Iso: (if LW is town, Terry is scum) "Explain? Just because of the double wagon?"
-Terry: (Iso is setting up a dichotomy) "They are the top two wagons… Also, if you have a problem with Iso, put your money where your mouth is and vote him. Also, what does "EGMEOY" mean? "Especially Given My Experience Of You?" "Eventually Garam Masala Elegantly Observes Yodeling?""
-Dawn: "Lastwhisper seems okay to me at the moment."
I'm ignoring all the fluff. I'm gonna focus on actual, potentially alignment indicative things.
Bolded are things I likedas potentially townie in this post, red colored parts are things I thought were potentially scummy, italics could go either way.
For that first one @Terry, he comes off as unnecessarily snarky. I've found scum tend to hide behind certain emotions (aggressiveness, snarkyness) when they can't fake actual ones. There's a bit of that in the "Were they not thinking about that" post to Terry as well.
There's some weird language in there as well... (Are yo sure that you need three points?)
Hedging (seems, at the moment)
Stifling discussion on mechanics
Then theres that bit near the end... Where he asks Iso to explain his read, wondering aloud if its because of the two wagons... but in the post to Terry later that post, he seems to have already come to that conclusion. Generally, I don't like people asking questions, but then jumping to that conclusion before getting the answer, as it feels like that's the conclusion you wanted in the first place..
Its also worth noting that his tone towards Terry makes me think he's 100% scum reading him... but never votes him.
However, there are some questions I really like in here. He does some asking of general mindset questions which could be town scumhunting. There's that one about "who in these 4 are scum" which could be telling.
He also seems to assume that everone has 3BP, which could potentially mean that he has no scumbuddies.
Self meta. NAI, but not fluff so I'll include it.
In the spoiler post, LW "seemed fine at the moment" but now he' doesn't have enough reason at the moment to vote him". It's a shady language thing that keeps LW as an option for lynch.
I did agree with Dawn's push on Tom being off though.
There's mostly just NAI stuff here, except his question to Iso. +town post
So, first of all there's another language thing here. Asking "are you sure..." gives potential scummbuddy DV cover to back off of his read there. This particular instance isn't as aggregious as in the spoiler post, hence the italics.
The thing I have the most problem is that he's unwilling to give a dignificant townread to Terry for a REALLY (exclaimation point double underline) good post. He's only willing to not scumread him for it. He's not commiting to a townread when I feel like it's the natural way to go.
And the vote on LnGrrR... not bolded by me obv... but I haven't seen ANY mention of him being scummy prior to that vote. He asked him a fe questions in the spoiler post. but nothing that indicates any scumread whatsoever.
I want to like this post. I like the question.
But then he sullies it by saying that he's hardtunneling Terry, which feels like a way to change his opinion should he need to.
On the other hand, I did notice that Pheonix was doing that, and thought it odd as well. So, I suppose its PROBABLY fine?
He's scumreading LngrrR based on tone... and the proof he provides is... his whole ISO.
Also he's back to disliking lastwhisper, though still not committing to it.
So, as of this point, he's been disliking... all the major wagons. Terry, Whisper, LngrrR.
Ok so he's elaborating now.
This feels... a lot more substancial than just 'tone', and the fact that he didn't mention most of this until questioned makes me think he hopped onto his ISO after being asked and came up with some reasons to think LnGrrR to be scummy.
I do agree the suicide thing was weird, but again... when he was asked why he was voting LngrrR I would think he would mention that.
He does follow through on his question about asking grapefruit specifically... but still. He never questioned LnGrrR on the suicide thing, nor really commented on it. If it had concerned him, I feel like he would have.
When this is your read, why just answer 'tone' and link the ISO?
This I feel is very unlikely to come from a town perspective. He's speculating that one-two scum are in the lurkers... but the only reason to PoE to lurkers is if you have townreads on the rest of the game. That's unlikely I think, given game size and just that he hasn't mentioned THAT many townreads. Terry is "not a scumread", Whisper is scum, LnGrrR is scum, I think at this point Dawn wasn't strictly town (IDK, he unvoted and never said anything about Dawn after that. Maybe he was townreading him by then)
But like, he's townreading tom, grape, DV, Az and a half one on Phoenix. Not enough PoE to start considering lurkers from a town perspective. Its jsut weird.
Kinda commits to liking part of LnGrrR's post.So, ok.
I'm... not sure what this actually means. Maybe it means those people are less likely aligned?
Since I'm unsure, I'll just put this as null-leantown?
I'm not a huge fan of people speculating about buddytalk in the thread between two non-scumleans, but it could come from town, so its null.
The other two things before the list are jsut responding to things, and probably NAI.
The list... I'm probably a little biased, but I just kinda appear in his scumreads out of nowhere. I'm also not a huge fan of people calling people scum, then not explaining till asked. (He's done it three times now: Dawn, LngrrR, me. Possibly whisper too, but these posts are starting to run together.
I'm also not a fan of where LnGrrR is on the list. He had pretty substancial reasons for voting him, now after part of one post he's Null.
Here's the reasoning for me. Not a scummy reasoning post, so much. I could debate mafia theory and say scum tries harder than town as a whole, but again, biased. He could just not know that.
The way he's connecting me to LW is odd though, considering tom's question had nothing to do with LW. Inserting him doesn't feel like a natural thought process.
So the first question is whatever. But.
Osie thinks the LW wagon moved too fast. (Since asking if he agrees mean Osie also thinks it) But hes still scumreading him.
Read on Axel is par.
He has more townreads not (although pretty loose ones) so I'm not sure the speculation on the scum in the lurkers makes sense still. Like, his reads aren't THAT good on most of his townreads.
Also speculates that his reads one several people could just be completely wrong, which is probably NAI in general, but it's fencesitty and there's a pattern there.
The tom thing is the only issue here. It's half committal... but its committal enough to give this post a general NAI.
Premature claiming is more town than not in most cases, although the role isn't specific to town. Could be scum.
Overall +town though
hmmm. I guess there's enough town notated here that he's townleaning? I'm not the hugest fan of liking a discussion by someone, but not liking who it's with? Like, what does who he's talking to have to do whether the actual content of the convo is town or not?
Also some hedging (as of yet)
Hm. nothing strictly bad here, although he seems to be having an easier time reading Az than most do... which could just mean they're scum together, or, as Osie has said, "trying not to annoy him".
Commitment on GF, then mechanics talk.I'd call this post mostly NAI with a hint of town.
More hedging.
Asking about Axel. Potentially trying to decipher Jenna.
Commitment on Jenna. Minor town.
This may be +town for not caring how you look, though it's also hiding behind a joke.
Ehh. The joke i think makes it null.
Only the bold questions could theoretically really yield alignment I think. If the questions were unprompted they'd be better.
IDK maybe it's +town? There's still a lot of fluff though.
I'm thinking since they weren't unprompted, the value of thinking up the questions may have been nullified.
1. Is the labyrinth in your avatar supposed to be very easy or very difficult?
2. Do you think a second vote on a person at a time when the lynch threshold is 9 can realistically be called opportunistic?
3. Are you sarcastic in every game? Are you arrogant in every game?
4. I've seen dichotomies from both scum and town. Why do you think it's specifically scum behavior?
5. Did you mean to say IGMEOY, or is there a mysterious EGMEOY that we all don't know about? Elephants Gracefully Masticate Endless Oblong Yams.
6. Talk to me about Shinichi, please. What are your thoughts?[/quote]These questions were unprompted, kinda. They were shortly after the questions to DBS so. Shrug.Mostly fluff.
The stance on me is meh, I guess. But his stance on Whisper is bad.Like, if Whisper is down near the bottom, why must he be convinced he's def scum?
Also, language tell... he's talking about his scumreads not in terms of how he actually feels, but their position on his scumlist. Like, it's trying to stay in line with what he has on his scumlist as opposed to who he actually thinks is scum at this time.
Also hedging.
Shin was for sure townlean at some point, and I don't recall seeing any change in that since.
Followthrough, minor+town.
This... is a weird train of throught to go from "Osie is viewing me positively".. Spontaineously speculating your actions as scum out of nowhere?
Minor commitment on Dawn.
Also the second statement feels weird. There's some hedging, but I feel like the way he isn't outright saying how town he views Dawn right here is weird.
Ok so, given his townread on Az, he seems to be handling Az weirdly. It's entirely possible that Osie jsut really doens't want on Az's bad side?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck that was long.
Ok so, Osie has asked some good questions.
However:
*His progression on various people is weird or nonexistant.
*The way he discusses his scumtells in terms of where they are on the list vs. how scummy he actually views them is scummy.
*Consistant hedging (not super great tell, but could be fencesitting so I'm noting it)
*Quite a bit of fluff. I found myself skipping a lot of posts for being completely useless or just answering basic questions and whatnot.
So, I think in the macro perspective, Osie is scum. Vote Osie
So yea, red things bad. Bold things good. Italic things either. strikethroughs irrelevent.
And now, I'm taking a break.
Contrary to other comments Osie claimed to be town neighborizor. At 1BP a pop.
So I was wanting to get Shin reacting to pressure on him because I think his reacions to it would tell us a lot about him. This is mostly based on his personality. This was coupled with a feeling that he might be scum possibly based on a couple posts of his.
Ok, NOW break.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I'm currently more sure that Osie is scum than my other scumreads atm, because I just physically read their entire game at once and confidence in Osie!scum is at it's peak.
I don't think Whispser is scum right now.
I'd vote DV, and I'm thinknig maybe hes scum with Osie.
Those are my top 2.
Stats? Just an impression. Your suggestion here seems like a bit of a stretch.
Okay this is a great post. I disagree with the macro conclusion but I follow the micro ones. I have less of an issue than you do with proclaiming scum reads without reasoning, it's something I do and don't view it as scummy. I'll agree the LnGrrrR one doesn't look good at all to me the way you highlight the jump from tone to content, but with Wisp and you it bothers me less. You could turn around and scum read me for largely the same thing. I don't see the amount of fluff as a scum tell. To my knowledge Osie is just a very active player who enjoys the social side of mafia. I'm not going to try to read into alignment based on that part. Hedging doesn't bother me this early because despite being almost 600 pages in it's early. Things are going to change drastically and multiple people have single digit post counts still.
The other point I like from your case is the pattern of viewing scum reads in the context of a list. That doesn't feel like a naturally town thing to do. I don't think it outweighs the positives in Osie (I generally have liked their targets).
That said that feels very much like a town post from you and alleviates a lot of my concerns on you. Also one DawningBlueSky doesn't look great coming out of that post and including themselves in a hypothetical scum team is just the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
Vote: DawningBlueSky
Still have my eye on LnGrrrR
My readlist is a noting down of some of my feelings on people from a specific moment in time. My feelings on people are both more complex than that, and regularly change, sometimes radically. Keep in mind also that nobody has gotten into scumreads on a readslist this game for me so far, only leans. I've seen both town and scum bits from the majority of players. This was also part of why I waited a while to vote; I haven't found anyone that I'm 100% on.
Because of the back-and-forth small talk in thread earlier? The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
This is a good point. I went along with her hypothetical because I didn't think it was that big a deal, but it is abnormal in or out of my personal mafia experience.
Killjoy's read on me is questionable. Finding tells on both sides is a positive for him, but it's not clear if the read as a whole was actually organic or was an overwrought production.
I think this quote is especially relevant given KJ's big post. Vote DBS with me peeps. Bolding mine.
Well sure, I will take that bluff. Claim DBS, so as you said, we can "get on with something more productive".
Unvote
Vote DawningBlueSky
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Bah.
You're fake news.
FakingNewsSky. DawningFakeNews.
You're probably not even a good day 1 lynch... That said, whether or not you are scum, your approach to this game is anti-town.
I was uncertain before, but hey, at least now I have a scumread.
Vote Dawningbluesky
(Just to be clear, this is me calling out too many of your posts as bad.)
Suspicious: Axelrod's blending query regarding kill appearance. Why ask of the eventually known, sans planning accordingly in secret?
First, agreement with Phoenix, second, I reconsider. LastWhisper is okay here.
I fell asleep before posting? Hope sense is made.
Make a case on me or just stop.
I'm already tired of all of this DV is scum crap this game.
Its cute a few times. But at this point its just straight up not fun to have a bunch of people say DV's scum cause "DV". And thats the case.
I'm tired.
What do you think of my Osie post?
Which doesn't necessarily mean he's town...
But I think I'd rather this wagon:
unvote
Vote lngrrr
what up?
i thought this too but terry was a pretty big wagon at the time and i decided it was fine
this is interesting
the bolded is probably a big part of why you always seem to scumread me
dont think its scummy
his progressions are a bit weird, and i think thats the best part of this post.
keeping track of your own list and thus viewing the game that way is something i do in mashes where i cant keep everyone straight, so its a bit odd that osi is doing it in a game this small. (man you should have seen me in the danganropa mash, where everyone was an alias account with a japanese name and i couldnt differentiate anyone. i gave a readslist like, every dozen posts because of it.)
osi's hedginess/escape clauses is why i tried to lead his mislynch in apocalypse before he got himself modkilled. so its normal for town osi.
fluff also nai
i think osi is still more likely to be town than not, but i like your reasoning in this post
i think hes still approaching things from a place of wariness. the solving is there, even though it doesn't always make sense to me. and i like his questions.
killjoy IS overwrought production in mafia player form
Really? Huh. Still think it's scummy in this case.
Also I like where your head is at right now. I feel like we had the same reaction to the KJ wall. And I kind of like your Iso take even if I know you have forced that read before (see JPA2). I think I kind of buy it since they are among the players he knows better and has history with but it's still a red flag.
I like voting LnGrrrR, but what about DawningBlue makes you think it's playstyle differences and not scum?