@Az, I would like to note two things. 1) Iso was at L2, mainly due to a wagon you started... not sure why you are upset about iso claiming 2) I specifically asked Iso to either claim or explain why he wasn't claiming.
Stuff that doesn't compute:
Az mad about Iso claim at L2 though he started the wagon
Iso blatantly avoiding a lynch on LW toDay
Iso voting Az
@Az, I would like to note two things. 1) Iso was at L2, mainly due to a wagon you started... not sure why you are upset about iso claiming 2) I specifically asked Iso to either claim or explain why he wasn't claiming.
Stuff that doesn't compute:
Az mad about Iso claim at L2 though he started the wagon
Iso blatantly avoiding a lynch on LW toDay
Iso voting Az
I am.befuddled.
"befuddled" lol if you dont think iso is scum, then her avoiding me should be nai... or am I missing something?
Why is Iso voting Az weird?
The first point is kinda weird when you think about it.
I mean, I want to say it's possible Jenna's a new player and really just off in her own zone, doing her own thing, slowly commenting on stuff that happened 1500 posts ago, except
she's still posting in that weird, affected style that HAS to be deliberate and which belies a mentality of someone who's a new player, and
she's also shown that she can see what's happening in the present and has commented on a few very specific recent posts, but is ignoring the wagon on her as a whole. I mean, she's remarked on me specifically - calling me a liar no less - but seeming to ignore the rather larger number of other people saying essentially the exact same things about her.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Hey, D_V, what do you think is Jenna's reason for the Axel scumread? She's had him in scumreads most if not all of the game, but hasn't talked much about it.
I mean, I want to say it's possible Jenna's a new player and really just off in her own zone, doing her own thing, slowly commenting on stuff that happened 1500 posts ago, except
she's still posting in that weird, affected style that HAS to be deliberate and which belies a mentality of someone who's a new player, and
she's also shown that she can see what's happening in the present and has commented on a few very specific recent posts, but is ignoring the wagon on her as a whole. I mean, she's remarked on me specifically - calling me a liar no less - but seeming to ignore the rather larger number of other people saying essentially the exact same things about her.
I mean, I want to say it's possible Jenna's a new player and really just off in her own zone, doing her own thing, slowly commenting on stuff that happened 1500 posts ago, except
she's still posting in that weird, affected style that HAS to be deliberate and which belies a mentality of someone who's a new player, and
she's also shown that she can see what's happening in the present and has commented on a few very specific recent posts, but is ignoring the wagon on her as a whole. I mean, she's remarked on me specifically - calling me a liar no less - but seeming to ignore the rather larger number of other people saying essentially the exact same things about her.
ya that does baffle, plus kudos to her, keeping up her composure when there is a train on her, as you can see I am unable to do that. who was it that said that theyve seen scum players before avoid their trains in hopes that they would go away?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Az, I would like to note two things. 1) Iso was at L2, mainly due to a wagon you started... not sure why you are upset about iso claiming 2) I specifically asked Iso to either claim or explain why he wasn't claiming.
Stuff that doesn't compute:
Az mad about Iso claim at L2 though he started the wagon
Iso blatantly avoiding a lynch on LW toDay
Iso voting Az
I am.befuddled.
It's bad town procedural play. Iso is most likely scum, but in the event he's not, we had people push him to a claim with no intention of actually carrying through with the lynch if the claim didn't clear him. It was just a wagon to get him to claim.
If Iso is actually town, his role is now completely useless. If Iso is scum, he's not dead. It's terrible play. If you push someone to claim, you'd better mean business, or you're either letting scum live needlessly, or spilling role info unnecessarily. Don't ask someone to claim unless you are committed to wanting them dead. That's how the scum get massive amounts of role info.
@Az, I would like to note two things. 1) Iso was at L2, mainly due to a wagon you started... not sure why you are upset about iso claiming 2) I specifically asked Iso to either claim or explain why he wasn't claiming.
Stuff that doesn't compute:
Az mad about Iso claim at L2 though he started the wagon
Iso blatantly avoiding a lynch on LW toDay
Iso voting Az
I am.befuddled.
It's bad town procedural play. Iso is most likely scum, but in the event he's not, we had people push him to a claim with no intention of actually carrying through with the lynch if the claim didn't clear him. It was just a wagon to get him to claim.
If Iso is actually town, his role is now completely useless. If Iso is scum, he's not dead. It's terrible play. If you push someone to claim, you'd better mean business, or you're either letting scum live needlessly, or spilling role info unnecessarily. Don't ask someone to claim unless you are committed to wanting them dead. That's how the scum get massive amounts of role info.
@Iso: Dead horse or not, scum is scum, and a Last Whisper lynch is the lynch to hit scum. Maybe Jenna's scum and just completely disengaged, but there is no info from her lynch, nothing we get from either way she comes up.
@Azreal: I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Last whisper and Grapefruit. I think you're trying to get fancy with those reads and not actually reading them for what they are.
-Last has been objectively scummy, he hasn't been consistent in his own reads, and he's used misinformation to push lynches and then not reevaluated when he was corrected. If he actually believed that Dawn/Iso had been a dichotomy, he would have pushed that instead of letting everything else go on around it. Look at the post he made when he noted the dichotomy down, he wasn't even hard pushing iso just using it to white knight dawning; speaking of which, his progression on dawning has been miserably bad, to the point where he acts like she's strong town but would still be willing to lynch her! I strongly believe that he's easily our best lynch for today.
-As far as grapefruit is concerned, look at the reasons people are willing to lynch him; there is no really consistent train of thought as to why he should be lynched, there are several citations of his meta saying "he's slightly more this," or "not as much like that," but nothing substantial. And, the posts you've pointed to and said "these make him scum" look like townie posts to me.
@Osie: Give me your thoughts on Iso/Azreal with a little more depth; you think they are oppositely aligned, why? What do you think of them if Jenna was to be revealed as scum? If town? What do you think the odds are that Jenna is scum?
@Jenna: Why are you voting for No Lynch? Who do you think is scum on your wagon? Can you post your thoughts on your strongest reads either way?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I'm going to echo some of what Axelrod said; while Dawning and Iso are not a dichotomy, I'm very leery of multiple killing roles being town aligned.
I'm ready to see a night phase because we've had an overload of conversation with no hard facts and I don't want to dig back until I've got something solid. My preferred lynch is last whisper, and of the other viable wagons at this point, Jenna would be an okay lynch to avoid a no lynch, and I'm avidly against this grapefruit lynch and would like people on it to give me a case on him.
I mean, I want to say it's possible Jenna's a new player and really just off in her own zone, doing her own thing, slowly commenting on stuff that happened 1500 posts ago, except
she's still posting in that weird, affected style that HAS to be deliberate and which belies a mentality of someone who's a new player, and
she's also shown that she can see what's happening in the present and has commented on a few very specific recent posts, but is ignoring the wagon on her as a whole. I mean, she's remarked on me specifically - calling me a liar no less - but seeming to ignore the rather larger number of other people saying essentially the exact same things about her.
Jenna's not a new player. She has said so.
-
@Phoenix: no ur rong
Jenna hard-incriminates LW/tom/Az as scum with a possible secondary of LnGrR/osi. As I've stated multiple times.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Osie: Give me your thoughts on Iso/Azreal with a little more depth; you think they are oppositely aligned, why?
I think that unlike Az, Iso doesn't like as much of that scum theatre. That's not to say that he doesn't joke around or that he would never setup such a situation, but also I think that he wouldn't do this whole setup, especially with Tom and others on the opposite side of things to call him out on it if he slipped.
What do you think of them if Jenna was to be revealed as scum?
I think that there's a lot of WIFOM to sort through, but there's more, and more worrisome, on the Azrael side; Iso mostly just looks slightly better on that front.
If Jenna flips town, well, first off I feel kinda sad. But after that, both Azrael and Iso are somewhere in my POE, with Azrael slightly lower, until an Azrael lynch, at which point if Azrael flips scum, Iso is town for the rest of the game. If Azrael flips town, I don't think it's as obvious whether or not Iso is scum.
Jenna hard-incriminates LW/tom/Az as scum with a possible secondary of LnGrR/osi. As I've stated multiple times.
I couldn't find it, though I admittedly didn't scour every post you've made. Could you point me to the spot where you explained or just re-explain why Jenna implicates Tom?
Jenna hard-incriminates LW/tom/Az as scum with a possible secondary of LnGrR/osi. As I've stated multiple times.
I couldn't find it, though I admittedly didn't scour every post you've made. Could you point me to the spot where you explained or just re-explain why Jenna implicates Tom?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Phoenix, I am worried that I need to do some rereads, as I haven't done as thorough job as I should on certain players; the four I mentioned earlier, and possibly others.
I'd like to explain the grape case more thoroughly, but I'm worried that every waking hour the rest of this game dat will be eaten up by preparation for hearings. I'm sure I can make time for at least a summary.
I mean, I want to say it's possible Jenna's a new player and really just off in her own zone, doing her own thing, slowly commenting on stuff that happened 1500 posts ago, except
she's still posting in that weird, affected style that HAS to be deliberate and which belies a mentality of someone who's a new player, and
she's also shown that she can see what's happening in the present and has commented on a few very specific recent posts, but is ignoring the wagon on her as a whole. I mean, she's remarked on me specifically - calling me a liar no less - but seeming to ignore the rather larger number of other people saying essentially the exact same things about her.
Jenna's not a new player. She has said so.
-
@Phoenix: no ur rong
Jenna hard-incriminates LW/tom/Az as scum with a possible secondary of LnGrR/osi. As I've stated multiple times.
I swear I saw a post where she said she was new, where did she say otherwise?
And no, you haven't stated this multiple times, you proposed this grouping once, when you first voted Azreal. Then you talked about game flow and how some of that is connected, but I don't get how you're getting from "this could be the team" to "hard incrimination". We have some time before end of day, would you provide some depth for them all being connected? I don't need a massive quote wall, I'm just not following your logic at all, and I don't get why she's a better lynch to get all this info than whisper is when he's been significantly more scummy.
I'm ready to see a night phase because we've had an overload of conversation with no hard facts and I don't want to dig back until I've got something solid. My preferred lynch is last whisper, and of the other viable wagons at this point, Jenna would be an okay lynch to avoid a no lynch, and I'm avidly against this grapefruit lynch and would like people on it to give me a case on him.
The deadline is tomorrow, and I think that the Jenna lynch is probably the best option at the moment, which people ON the Grapefruit wagon have also expressed as much at times.
his (Last's) progression on dawning has been miserably bad, to the point where he acts like she's strong town but would still be willing to lynch her! I strongly believe that he's easily our best lynch for today.
I am a strong town player, but just as strong a scum player. I've been playing mafia since a year ago, but Last only has half a year. it's only natural for him to want to 'do away' with someone who's more experienced and potentially more dangerous. my experience averages that of a veteran, that is why my scumgame can be concerning.
-As far as grapefruit is concerned, look at the reasons people are willing to lynch him; there is no really consistent train of thought as to why he should be lynched, there are several citations of his meta saying "he's slightly more this," or "not as much like that," but nothing substantial. And, the posts you've pointed to and said "these make him scum" look like townie posts to me.
I'm going to echo some of what Axelrod said; while Dawning and Iso are not a dichotomy, I'm very leery of multiple killing roles being town aligned.
I'm ready to see a night phase because we've had an overload of conversation with no hard facts and I don't want to dig back until I've got something solid. My preferred lynch is last whisper, and of the other viable wagons at this point, Jenna would be an okay lynch to avoid a no lynch, and I'm avidly against this grapefruit lynch and would like people on it to give me a case on him.
you can check the latest page of my ISO. but in short, I do not see the drive in Grapefruit that town should have.
it isn't just the lack of innovation in his posts, but the way he talks about things from a distance....it lacks a personal touch. he points out the obvious, and it doesn't show active thinking.
his tunnel on LnG/Dawn/Last has been more of parking than a real tunnel. at first he said Dawn should be pocketing, but turns around after a myriad of my self-defense posts into saying I'm town and that Last is the one pocketing me. ok..? I don't think Last is pocketing me, or rather..I'm too big to fit in his pocket lol. if we talk about experience.
meta on Grapefruit says scum, but even outside of that, he fails to do anything I would say is town.
another thing, why is everyone giving reasons to let him off? scum would encourage chaos or exploit his lack of involvement. lack of exploitation is a scumtell. since Grapefruit hasn't been exploited, he's scum.
where and how has Grapefruit helped this town? he's been echoing the ideas and opinions of others, not his own. there are no convictions in his findings, just a commentary.
the Jenna wagon looks like a hate-lynch to me. I'd rather not have it if I can help it.
Last has had too much attention this phase that I do not think scum would have. Last AND me has been the center of attention this phase, but I'll reconsider if Last was used to set me up.
for now, I think our best lynch is Grapefruit. we shouldn't sacrifice the better option for a hate-lynch.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
We had 48 hours upon initiation. That's plenty, and far better than waiting until Iso decided to arrive to commence a CFD.
Somehow I suspect that the best CFDs form more organically, rather than someone calling out "Let's do a CFD."
Like, if you had just said "I think Iso and Jenna have enough pressure on them at the moment, and I want to poke more at Grape"
That would be one thing.
But instead it was "Let's do a CFD."
Which seems like, well, to use one of your words:
Wooden
Also, you are still not voting Jenna, despite your read on her saying
I'm reading Jenna and I really, really want her to just die now.
why are you such a pro-Jenna voter? I'm not convinced that you're town, and this is not helping it. Azrael said that from frustration with those weird posts, not that he scumread her. there is a chance that Jenna is town. mislynching her with an apology will not help us win fyi - noticed you mentioned that.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
why are you such a pro-Jenna voter? I'm not convinced that you're town, and this is not helping it. Azrael said that from frustration with those weird posts, not that he scumread her. there is a chance that Jenna is town. mislynching her with an apology will not help us win fyi - noticed you mentioned that.
Because a no lynch is one of the worst things that can happen today for town. Even if Jenna flips town, we still get something out of it.
could be her weird way of saying she gave up. dunno if that is scum or town-motivated. we're good with lynching someone who gave up so..I guess it's fine? lel
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
why are you such a pro-Jenna voter? I'm not convinced that you're town, and this is not helping it. Azrael said that from frustration with those weird posts, not that he scumread her. there is a chance that Jenna is town. mislynching her with an apology will not help us win fyi - noticed you mentioned that.
Also...
1. I'm not actually overly concerned if you're not convinced that I'm town. My role PM, myself, and some number of other players are.
2. This feels incredibly similar to an argument you made in defense of yourself. I'm not sure what I think about you using it on someone else... <- See, two can play at that kind of statement.
Somehow I suspect that the best CFDs form more organically, rather than someone calling out "Let's do a CFD."
Well, that's the opposite of true. The whole point of calling for a CFD is to organize the town so that we don't disintegrate into a directionless mob without a unified plan of action, and fail to accomplish the task in the time allotted. How does NOT calling for a vote switch assist with that, exactly?
Getting a taste of what was bugging DV earlier, I think. Like you're not necessarily thinking through some of these things you're saying.
Like, if you had just said "I think Iso and Jenna have enough pressure on them at the moment, and I want to poke more at Grape"
That would be one thing.
But instead it was "Let's do a CFD."
Which seems like, well, to use one of your words:
Also, you are still not voting Jenna, despite your read on her saying
Poke? I don't want to poke Grape. I want to organize a lynch mob to murder him. That requires the assistance of other players.
I think my stance on Jenna is pretty clear. Same as Iso, I want her to die, but I think she's better off dying tomorrow in the event there's something we're missing, seeing as she apparently hasn't even reached the current thread. And probably won't even be prepared to claim, prior to being lynched.
But hey, if you want to follow Iso towards lynching someone who actually probably won't even claim in her own defense today, feel free. Because Iso's not being a hypocritical scummy dude at all by trying to push for her lynch today, over tomorrow, when we would have plenty of time to force her to claim and barrage her with mean, nasty questions. In the remote event that Jenna is weird town, this wagon is a tragedy waiting to happen, and it's the kind of loose, reckless, and irresponsible play that should never be allowed. But don't take my word for it, take Iso's, when he complained about me supposedly doing the same thing to him.
You don't lynch people who can't defend themselves. Iso said so himself, as applied to me. He just won't apply that same standard to his own desperation wagon, or admit that one of the primary reasons he isn't dead right now, is because I'm NOT going to do that to him today.
@Az, I would like to note two things. 1) Iso was at L2, mainly due to a wagon you started... not sure why you are upset about iso claiming 2) I specifically asked Iso to either claim or explain why he wasn't claiming.
Stuff that doesn't compute:
Az mad about Iso claim at L2 though he started the wagon
Iso blatantly avoiding a lynch on LW toDay
Iso voting Az
I am.befuddled.
sounds to me like Iso did that to stir reactions. still don't see what he's reading off of this though.
Azrael being angry at being voted after those walls of re-evaluation should be expected.
I'm neutral about those 2 for now zzzzz
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
why are you such a pro-Jenna voter? I'm not convinced that you're town, and this is not helping it. Azrael said that from frustration with those weird posts, not that he scumread her. there is a chance that Jenna is town. mislynching her with an apology will not help us win fyi - noticed you mentioned that.
Also...
1. I'm not actually overly concerned if you're not convinced that I'm town. My role PM, myself, and some number of other players are.
2. This feels incredibly similar to an argument you made in defense of yourself. I'm not sure what I think about you using it on someone else... <- See, two can play at that kind of statement.
I mean I have 2/3 out of those? lol
My role pm confirms I'm town, I can confirm I'm town, maybe nobody else sees that I am town? but at this point i really dont care lmao...
And LW too. All of Jenna recent post just reek of scum trying to justify a vote on the lead wagon and LWs vote is just the same.
How can you say this when I'm not voting Iso? Did you miss that I have said that I wouldn't make a decision on Iso before past and present converge? My vote is on Grapefruit and that is where it is staying.
You were shading ISO and trying to create reasons to justify a vote that, until I called you on it was surely going to come. Maybe even the hammer.
You are lying and gaslighting. You have no right to say as a fact what is going on only head. That is abuse. Stop this instant.
It's not abuse. It's a game. I have the right to speculate where I thought you were going with your comments, that's part of this game. The only people that know things as fact are scum. Every town player in this game should be talking about stuff that they CANNOT KNOW AS FACTS, that's the whole point of this game.
I'm sorry for my outburst but it needed to be said. Back to the game.
Iso in #2694 explains sufficiently. I suppose Terry will find some way for this to imply an act of malice perpetrated by me in some form. I do not look forward to it and can only hope it will not happen.
I think my stance on Jenna is pretty clear. Same as Iso, I want her to die, but I think she's better off dying tomorrow in the event there's something we're missing, seeing as she apparently hasn't even reached the current thread.
What do you mean, Az? She's been here. She commented on current posts. And then she left again.
But hey, if you want to follow Iso towards lynching someone who actually probably won't even claim in her own defense today, feel free. Because Iso's not being a hypocritical scummy dude at all by trying to push for her lynch today, over tomorrow, when we would have plenty of time to force her to claim and barrage her with mean, nasty questions. In the remote event that Jenna is weird town, this wagon is a tragedy waiting to happen, and it's the kind of loose, reckless, and irresponsible play that should never be allowed. But don't take my word for it, take Iso's, when he complained about me supposedly doing the same thing to him.
You don't lynch people who can't defend themselves. Iso said so himself, as applied to me. He just won't apply that same standard to his own desperation wagon, or admit that one of the primary reasons he isn't dead right now, is because I'm NOT going to do that to him today.
Where can't she defend herself? And, not to defend Iso too much, but he's not making some kind of last second push for Jenna either. He was voting her a long time ago. This does not seem a correct point.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, that's the opposite of true. The whole point of calling for a CFD is to organize the town so that we don't disintegrate into a directionless mob without a unified plan of action, and fail to accomplish the task in the time allotted. How does NOT calling for a vote switch assist with that, exactly?
Calling for a vote switch is one thing, but the way you said it came across as, well, theatrical.
As far as grapefruit is concerned, look at the reasons people are willing to lynch him; there is no really consistent train of thought as to why he should be lynched, there are several citations of his meta saying "he's slightly more this," or "not as much like that," but nothing substantial. And, the posts you've pointed to and said "these make him scum" look like townie posts to me.
Which was why I was the most drawn to the Iso part of your string of posts.
I think my stance on Jenna is pretty clear. Same as Iso, I want her to die, but I think she's better off dying tomorrow in the event there's something we're missing, seeing as she apparently hasn't even reached the current thread. And probably won't even be prepared to claim, prior to being lynched.
But hey, if you want to follow Iso towards lynching someone who actually probably won't even claim in her own defense today, feel free. Because Iso's not being a hypocritical scummy dude at all by trying to push for her lynch today, over tomorrow, when we would have plenty of time to force her to claim and barrage her with mean, nasty questions. In the remote event that Jenna is weird town, this wagon is a tragedy waiting to happen, and it's the kind of loose, reckless, and irresponsible play that should never be allowed. But don't take my word for it, take Iso's, when he complained about me supposedly doing the same thing to him.
You don't lynch people who can't defend themselves. Iso said so himself, as applied to me. He just won't apply that same standard to his own desperation wagon, or admit that one of the primary reasons he isn't dead right now, is because I'm NOT going to do that to him today.
You see, this is a good point. But if not Iso, Grapefruit, or Jenna, then your other suggestion is Tom, who I am more certain is town than any of those others. So while yes, Jenna is possibly not the best lynch today, she's a better lynch than any of your other three suggestions, as I just don't yet agree on Grapefruit.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't like Az's CFD attempt. It didn't feel natural. IDK. Like, I feel like without it we could have easily gotten a lynch. Then he moved.
No the question remains do I trust Iso? Answer: More than I trust Az.
I think lynching Grape is better than Iso at this stage.
Vote: Grapefruit
Why are you voting for the wagon being pushed by the person you trust less?
Sorry KJ, I multi-quoted it, but then lost it, and got a little bit busy after. Who did you need me to analyze for you again? Can't say it'll be at the top of my to-do list given current situation, though.
I don't like Az's CFD attempt. It didn't feel natural. IDK. Like, I feel like without it we could have easily gotten a lynch. Then he moved.
No the question remains do I trust Iso? Answer: More than I trust Az.
I think lynching Grape is better than Iso at this stage.
Vote: Grapefruit
Why are you voting for the wagon being pushed by the person you trust less?
Cause he is scum that's bussing. It doesn't have to make sense.
Stuff that doesn't compute:
Az mad about Iso claim at L2 though he started the wagon
Iso blatantly avoiding a lynch on LW toDay
Iso voting Az
I am.befuddled.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Hi befuddled, I'm Dad...
The Az vote is well enough explained that I'm willing to believe that it isn't just OMGUS.
"befuddled" lol if you dont think iso is scum, then her avoiding me should be nai... or am I missing something?
Why is Iso voting Az weird?
The first point is kinda weird when you think about it.
Scum read reconfirmed.
she's still posting in that weird, affected style that HAS to be deliberate and which belies a mentality of someone who's a new player, and
she's also shown that she can see what's happening in the present and has commented on a few very specific recent posts, but is ignoring the wagon on her as a whole. I mean, she's remarked on me specifically - calling me a liar no less - but seeming to ignore the rather larger number of other people saying essentially the exact same things about her.
Hey, D_V, what do you think is Jenna's reason for the Axel scumread? She's had him in scumreads most if not all of the game, but hasn't talked much about it.
I mean, you say you understand game flow/momentum theory, but posts like this indicate to me that that might not be the case.
Why do you think I'm a woman?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Jenna Tolaria (5): TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Axelrod, D_V, osieorb18, Iso
Iso (2): tomsloger, Kabazame
dawningbluesky (1): Shinichi
Lastwhisper (3): Phoenix-Fire, Grapefruit21, LnGrrrR
Grapefruit21 (4): Azrael, Lastwhisper, dawningbluesky, Killjoy
No Lynch (1): Jenna Tolaria
Not Voting (1): Megiddo
With 17 alive, it’s 9 to lynch. The deadline is Tuesday, November 7th at 11.59 pm EST.
It's bad town procedural play. Iso is most likely scum, but in the event he's not, we had people push him to a claim with no intention of actually carrying through with the lynch if the claim didn't clear him. It was just a wagon to get him to claim.
If Iso is actually town, his role is now completely useless. If Iso is scum, he's not dead. It's terrible play. If you push someone to claim, you'd better mean business, or you're either letting scum live needlessly, or spilling role info unnecessarily. Don't ask someone to claim unless you are committed to wanting them dead. That's how the scum get massive amounts of role info.
Looks like 4 for grape, 5 for jenna, so far.
You really excited for a wagon that has LW and KJ on it?
And the CFD idea isn't bad town play?
@Azreal: I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Last whisper and Grapefruit. I think you're trying to get fancy with those reads and not actually reading them for what they are.
-Last has been objectively scummy, he hasn't been consistent in his own reads, and he's used misinformation to push lynches and then not reevaluated when he was corrected. If he actually believed that Dawn/Iso had been a dichotomy, he would have pushed that instead of letting everything else go on around it. Look at the post he made when he noted the dichotomy down, he wasn't even hard pushing iso just using it to white knight dawning; speaking of which, his progression on dawning has been miserably bad, to the point where he acts like she's strong town but would still be willing to lynch her! I strongly believe that he's easily our best lynch for today.
-As far as grapefruit is concerned, look at the reasons people are willing to lynch him; there is no really consistent train of thought as to why he should be lynched, there are several citations of his meta saying "he's slightly more this," or "not as much like that," but nothing substantial. And, the posts you've pointed to and said "these make him scum" look like townie posts to me.
@Osie: Give me your thoughts on Iso/Azreal with a little more depth; you think they are oppositely aligned, why? What do you think of them if Jenna was to be revealed as scum? If town? What do you think the odds are that Jenna is scum?
@Jenna: Why are you voting for No Lynch? Who do you think is scum on your wagon? Can you post your thoughts on your strongest reads either way?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I'm going to echo some of what Axelrod said; while Dawning and Iso are not a dichotomy, I'm very leery of multiple killing roles being town aligned.
I'm ready to see a night phase because we've had an overload of conversation with no hard facts and I don't want to dig back until I've got something solid. My preferred lynch is last whisper, and of the other viable wagons at this point, Jenna would be an okay lynch to avoid a no lynch, and I'm avidly against this grapefruit lynch and would like people on it to give me a case on him.
Jenna's not a new player. She has said so.
-
@Phoenix: no ur rong
Jenna hard-incriminates LW/tom/Az as scum with a possible secondary of LnGrR/osi. As I've stated multiple times.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think that unlike Az, Iso doesn't like as much of that scum theatre. That's not to say that he doesn't joke around or that he would never setup such a situation, but also I think that he wouldn't do this whole setup, especially with Tom and others on the opposite side of things to call him out on it if he slipped.
I think that there's a lot of WIFOM to sort through, but there's more, and more worrisome, on the Azrael side; Iso mostly just looks slightly better on that front.
If Jenna flips town, well, first off I feel kinda sad. But after that, both Azrael and Iso are somewhere in my POE, with Azrael slightly lower, until an Azrael lynch, at which point if Azrael flips scum, Iso is town for the rest of the game. If Azrael flips town, I don't think it's as obvious whether or not Iso is scum.
Somewhere between 66 and 80 percent.
I couldn't find it, though I admittedly didn't scour every post you've made. Could you point me to the spot where you explained or just re-explain why Jenna implicates Tom?
I actively was calling Grape scum for a while and now have been actively campaigning against his wagon.
The fact that I'm not getting called out is sort of troubling to me.
The No Lynch makes zero sense.
Like just zero.
I think Phoenix is wrong about it being no info. As well. But he gets + Town points for thinking that way.
What are you doing, D_V?
We had 48 hours upon initiation. That's plenty, and far better than waiting until Iso decided to arrive to commence a CFD.
no
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'd like to explain the grape case more thoroughly, but I'm worried that every waking hour the rest of this game dat will be eaten up by preparation for hearings. I'm sure I can make time for at least a summary.
And no, you haven't stated this multiple times, you proposed this grouping once, when you first voted Azreal. Then you talked about game flow and how some of that is connected, but I don't get how you're getting from "this could be the team" to "hard incrimination". We have some time before end of day, would you provide some depth for them all being connected? I don't need a massive quote wall, I'm just not following your logic at all, and I don't get why she's a better lynch to get all this info than whisper is when he's been significantly more scummy.
The deadline is tomorrow, and I think that the Jenna lynch is probably the best option at the moment, which people ON the Grapefruit wagon have also expressed as much at times.
Well, that's decidedly not useful.
Somehow I suspect that the best CFDs form more organically, rather than someone calling out "Let's do a CFD."
Like, if you had just said "I think Iso and Jenna have enough pressure on them at the moment, and I want to poke more at Grape"
That would be one thing.
But instead it was "Let's do a CFD."
Which seems like, well, to use one of your words:
Also, you are still not voting Jenna, despite your read on her saying
I am a strong town player, but just as strong a scum player. I've been playing mafia since a year ago, but Last only has half a year. it's only natural for him to want to 'do away' with someone who's more experienced and potentially more dangerous. my experience averages that of a veteran, that is why my scumgame can be concerning.
you can check the latest page of my ISO. but in short, I do not see the drive in Grapefruit that town should have.
it isn't just the lack of innovation in his posts, but the way he talks about things from a distance....it lacks a personal touch. he points out the obvious, and it doesn't show active thinking.
his tunnel on LnG/Dawn/Last has been more of parking than a real tunnel. at first he said Dawn should be pocketing, but turns around after a myriad of my self-defense posts into saying I'm town and that Last is the one pocketing me. ok..? I don't think Last is pocketing me, or rather..I'm too big to fit in his pocket lol. if we talk about experience.
meta on Grapefruit says scum, but even outside of that, he fails to do anything I would say is town.
another thing, why is everyone giving reasons to let him off? scum would encourage chaos or exploit his lack of involvement. lack of exploitation is a scumtell. since Grapefruit hasn't been exploited, he's scum.
where and how has Grapefruit helped this town? he's been echoing the ideas and opinions of others, not his own. there are no convictions in his findings, just a commentary.
the Jenna wagon looks like a hate-lynch to me. I'd rather not have it if I can help it.
Last has had too much attention this phase that I do not think scum would have. Last AND me has been the center of attention this phase, but I'll reconsider if Last was used to set me up.
for now, I think our best lynch is Grapefruit. we shouldn't sacrifice the better option for a hate-lynch.
Be grateful, always."
join the Grapefruit wagon
I mean.. anyone with common sense should notice that by now. right?
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Because a no lynch is one of the worst things that can happen today for town. Even if Jenna flips town, we still get something out of it.
See #2818.
Be grateful, always."
Also...
1. I'm not actually overly concerned if you're not convinced that I'm town. My role PM, myself, and some number of other players are.
2. This feels incredibly similar to an argument you made in defense of yourself. I'm not sure what I think about you using it on someone else... <- See, two can play at that kind of statement.
Well, that's the opposite of true. The whole point of calling for a CFD is to organize the town so that we don't disintegrate into a directionless mob without a unified plan of action, and fail to accomplish the task in the time allotted. How does NOT calling for a vote switch assist with that, exactly?
Getting a taste of what was bugging DV earlier, I think. Like you're not necessarily thinking through some of these things you're saying.
Poke? I don't want to poke Grape. I want to organize a lynch mob to murder him. That requires the assistance of other players.
I think my stance on Jenna is pretty clear. Same as Iso, I want her to die, but I think she's better off dying tomorrow in the event there's something we're missing, seeing as she apparently hasn't even reached the current thread. And probably won't even be prepared to claim, prior to being lynched.
But hey, if you want to follow Iso towards lynching someone who actually probably won't even claim in her own defense today, feel free. Because Iso's not being a hypocritical scummy dude at all by trying to push for her lynch today, over tomorrow, when we would have plenty of time to force her to claim and barrage her with mean, nasty questions. In the remote event that Jenna is weird town, this wagon is a tragedy waiting to happen, and it's the kind of loose, reckless, and irresponsible play that should never be allowed. But don't take my word for it, take Iso's, when he complained about me supposedly doing the same thing to him.
You don't lynch people who can't defend themselves. Iso said so himself, as applied to me. He just won't apply that same standard to his own desperation wagon, or admit that one of the primary reasons he isn't dead right now, is because I'm NOT going to do that to him today.
Azrael being angry at being voted after those walls of re-evaluation should be expected.
I'm neutral about those 2 for now zzzzz
Be grateful, always."
My role pm confirms I'm town, I can confirm I'm town, maybe nobody else sees that I am town? but at this point i really dont care lmao...
What do you mean, Az? She's been here. She commented on current posts. And then she left again.
Where can't she defend herself? And, not to defend Iso too much, but he's not making some kind of last second push for Jenna either. He was voting her a long time ago. This does not seem a correct point.
Calling for a vote switch is one thing, but the way you said it came across as, well, theatrical.
My issue is similar to that of Phoenix, which has implied echoes from at the very least Terry and D_V:
Which was why I was the most drawn to the Iso part of your string of posts.
You see, this is a good point. But if not Iso, Grapefruit, or Jenna, then your other suggestion is Tom, who I am more certain is town than any of those others. So while yes, Jenna is possibly not the best lynch today, she's a better lynch than any of your other three suggestions, as I just don't yet agree on Grapefruit.
Good, you're here. Can you answer me this:
Why are you voting for the wagon being pushed by the person you trust less?
Cause he is scum that's bussing. It doesn't have to make sense.
It needs to look good.
But it doesn't look good or make sense.
No the Micro play looks good.
The Macro play looks bad.
He only thinking Micro. Where you catch scum is where the the Micro plays don't make sense with the Macro plays.